Originally posted by Chimmi instancing sucks, consensual PvP sucksIs there a nice mob that give a nice loot. I gather party, head there, kill everything in the way, including others there that might be attempting to get it. And that's it. Good gear belongs to the one that can get IT, and hold to IT (avoid beeing killed for it). What's that bs about standing in lines or other things.If I die in the process, then perhaps I was not worthy enough to have such a good item, PERIOD.I tried WOW, didn't appeal to me, And the question would be ... Is it there a game that has a thing like I mentioned before ? I really don't have the finances to test all the mmorpgs out there.Peace, over & out.
SWG had this but it also suffered huge problems along side and because of it.
The major problem they had was that the server reset would bring about the 1 and only spawn of certain boss/mobs. This meant that the major guilds would ensure they woke and logged on at exactly server start and killed all the bosses before anyone else would log on. This was abviously flawed.
It is no excuse for introducing instances as the answer though. How about make them random and you have spend the day hunting them down or a hunter could try tracking it or something then the guild can prepare and intercept. Anything but instances, please! Over and over and over and over and over and over...
Originally posted by duckncover Originally posted by Chimmi instancing sucks, consensual PvP sucksIs there a nice mob that give a nice loot. I gather party, head there, kill everything in the way, including others there that might be attempting to get it. And that's it. Good gear belongs to the one that can get IT, and hold to IT (avoid beeing killed for it). What's that bs about standing in lines or other things.If I die in the process, then perhaps I was not worthy enough to have such a good item, PERIOD.I tried WOW, didn't appeal to me, And the question would be ... Is it there a game that has a thing like I mentioned before ? I really don't have the finances to test all the mmorpgs out there.Peace, over & out.
SWG had this but it also suffered huge problems along side and because of it.
The major problem they had was that the server reset would bring about the 1 and only spawn of certain boss/mobs. This meant that the major guilds would ensure they woke and logged on at exactly server start and killed all the bosses before anyone else would log on. This was abviously flawed.
It is no excuse for introducing instances as the answer though. How about make them random and you have spend the day hunting them down or a hunter could try tracking it or something then the guild can prepare and intercept. Anything but instances, please! Over and over and over and over and over and over...
Thania
hmm odd, that's easy to overcome. make the boss spawn at random times, People will stand around and kill eachother waiting for it. However, without a death penalty to PVP this is a bit pointless.
Instances, properly done, would mean that you hadn't noticed that you were in one. Likewise others shouldn't be able to notice you're in one either.
Immersion should be the key for MMO's otherwise we could all be playing PnP rpgs or teh consol games of our choice. If I want the classic DnD experience I'll gather my gaming buddies together and we'll go on a dungeon hack; it's prefered to sitting going pale in front of our computers. I doubt I'll be playing DDO.
Instancing, as has already been said, is to MMOs as the module was to old school DnD. While I have fond memories of the DM turning up for the game with a nasty gleam in his eyes and a shiny new adventure, fresh from the store yet already sporting a hundred weight of bookmarks, grasped tightly in his fist. We all gathered our character sheets together with apphrehension knowning that hit points were going to be spilled... glory days but not what I play MMOs for. I mean if I want to have that experience online I'd play NWN.
MMORPG's are currently stuck where first generation PnP RPG's were twenty years ago. Unless the industry is seriously challenged we'll continue to go nowhere fast.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference." -- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
The problem is that the contra instance faction thinks instances change the community. Features like instances can have that effect, but every other feature too. When instances hurt the community why was it so easy to find a group in Guild Wars. Why so difficult in DAOC.
Instances are the means to make a world immersive, to bring more atmosphere for groups. If i get a quest to kill a villian, how interesting is it to get through the dungeon without a kill and to wait in line with 30 others to make the kill.
In contrast one big world. You wander the sandy wastes of tatoine and can't see a grain of sand because of all the factories. One big world is less persistent that instancing when everything respawn and nothing ever realy changes. The only persistent thing is the charakter and his inventory.
While i see the arguments that say instances keep players from contact with the community why where my best interaction with other players in instances?
I think the difference is the world mechanic. I think you can make an mmorp with only instancing that is far more persisten an has a better community than an mmorpg with an open world.
Looking at the existing MMORPGs you can see that the difference lies in motivation. There are boring MMORPGs that lack features and things to do, but they attrackt a good community. Because of the lack of goals the players use the community to generate new goals and atmosphere.
If you take instances and make them the only goal for a high lvl character you will get no real community but a guild oriented community. Modern MMORPGs try to motivate the players and guide them to different ways to improve their charakters. Most of them miss real goals that further the community.
So i think not instancing is the problem but the goals and motivations. If you have to many goals and motivations that are contra community then you will end with a weak community.
I've played three wide open games without instancing. Dark Ages of Camelot before the addon after Trials of Atlantis, Ultima Online, EVE (well it has what seem to be small instances and not these huge massive isntances). I've played some games with instancing: Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, the beta for AD&D. I've dabbled in numerous other games.
Early on, when things are easy, yes, it is easy to get a group in any of these games period unless the game has aged and there just aren't a lot of beginning players left around to play. Instancing or not, it really doesn't matter.
And in all these games, big guilds (corps in EVE) tend to dominate the action and there members get experiences that other people have a hard time achieving.
The problem with instancing, especially with high end content for all MMORPGs, is that it is incredibly time consuming. It is a lot easier to jump in and join a raid in DAOC when you just have to catch up to the raid rather than be there for the beginning. You can finish part of a Trial, for instance, one day and catch up to finish it later. You can often catch up to the crowd in the epic dungons. In EVE, you can jump in and help out in an alliance war or whatnot as soon as you log on. Ultima Online was always available to play right away.
The instance intensive games, however, all have aspects that are exceedingly difficult to finish in one sitting without a very large time commitment and it is IMPOSSIBLE to catch up with your friends. WoW requires HUGE blocks of time to get through some of the dungeons. To go through the non-storyline dungeons in Guildwars (the Rift and the others) you have to be there for hours as well. I fear that the higher level AD&D content will be the same.
A poster before me talked about one of my biggest problems with the instanced world; however, he got it all wrong. He talked about persistence. Well, we want our characters to last from session to session, which all games have, but he talked as though a wide open world never changed from session to session as opposed to an instanced world. I must agree that the world is VERY persistent in an instanced world. The result is quite the opposite of what the poster meant however. In fact, those instances will be there forever and nothing will ever change. You will have absolutely no impact on the world. The guy that comes along later will face the same old instances of challenge. Very persistent. Rock solid persistent in every aspect.
The more instanced intensive the game, the more that the exact same circumstances will play out over and over again. In Guildwars, people sell their services because they have "cracked" a particular instance. The same strategy is used over and over and over, because the same exact encounters are played out over and over again. Too persistent if you ask me.
I like a world that changes. My achievements might stay with me in the form of experience or abilities or items, but to have any impact on the world, something has to change. NOTHING that we do in WoW changes anything at all. In DAOC, PvP has an impact on everybody. Territory changes hands (they merely need to make it more so in that resources are important and change hands too). In EVE, autonomy over systems goes back and forth, invasions of whole sections of space occurs, markets can be disrupted. Ultima Online . . . well, I don't know about how things are now, they moved toward the dynamic spawn but still, rather persistent. Instancing is only one way of making a world unchangeable.
The only way I would much care for isntancing is if somebody were changing the instances along the way based on what I did in the others. Again, though, that's kind of an individual experience
In the end, the thing about instancing is that there's nothing in it that appeals to or requires a realmwide, nationwide, alliancewide effort. It's all about your guild or your group and nothing about it pulls you outside that group. You can leave it if you want, but nothing tugs you to do so.
This problem can happen with or without instancing, but I think that the best games pull you outside your little group in a game to interact meaningfully IN THE GAME with the community at large. That's why games like DAOC or EVE to me are much more engaging and immersive. They aren't perfect.
In the end, there's not much atmosphere in a game that you can't touch or change in some meaningful way. To find out that so and so is fighting the same fight you just finished is NEVER immersive whether it is a spawn or an instance.
In an all isntanced world, as soon as you are in a group where somebody is telling you (ordering you) to do this or that because they have done it before, it loses all of its immersiveness for me. In fact, to go through an instanced game I would prefer to be in one group that goes through the whole game all by itself, joining with other virgin groups when necessary to get over larger challenges. And to do that, you have to ignore the community completely. (The puzzles in the Trials of Atlantis were a puzzle for only the first group of beta players. It was a set of instructions (with an obnoxious dictator reading them virbatum) and a pretty walk-thru for the rest of us).
So if you want to be immersed in a non-repetitive game period, I think it is best to ignore the community completely. Since instanced games are the most repetitive, they lend themselves least to community play.
I have yet to find a game that really satisfies me, of course. But I think that the more satisfying games either have designers that write content in reaction to player actions in the game or the players are provided with a good environment for stirring up their own events and changes in the game that have in-game meaning.
I've played Ragnarok, COH, and WoW mostly(I tried FFXI for a few days and have played Toontown's 3 day trial more than once XD). I think CoH's instances would be alot more fun if they said 'Here, you go into the lair of the _____ but take these random PCs with you, I think they'll help'. It would make it more interactive and if you got stuck with a group you didn't like you could just leave them and solo your instance. Also, I think you should be able to communicate with the outside world O_o. A big lure of CoH is just hanging out in Atlas Park(the newb zone) and chatting and I know I enjoy Westfall's chat in WoW and get pissed when I have to fly back to Stormforge to buy something and have to listen to their general chats about Chuck Noris. I could see similar irritations with instances.
In conclusion: I don't mind instances but put some real people in them!
On the subject of trying to find a solution instead of stating the problem. I think taking a couple different ideas from users on here could make something to move in the right step.
Step 1: Make dungeons un-instanced. Step 2: Make bosses instanced. Step 3: Make bosses available to only those with a repeatable quest for him. Step 4: Make sure there are high level and difficult mobs outside the boss door. Step 5: (Optional) Put an upper-level cap on dungeons.
To clarify on step 3; You can fight all the way up to the boss room in a completely open, un-instanced dungeon. To get into the boss room, you will need a quest that you can get from an NPC over and over. (Maybe a timelimit on how long before you and the people in your group can get the quest again to prevent farming) Now if you have that quest, it will be shared with your whole group so when you enter the boss room, it's just you and your friends.
To clarify on step 4; What I'd like to see would be a decent amount of fairly hard mobs that spawn often. The reason for this because the instance entrance would be both a bottle neck and a perfect place for griefers to sit and wait to just keep ganking anyone going for the boss. If you have a good amount of hard mobs that spawn frequently it will deter and make it very difficult for people to just sit there and wait around. Everyone who's there for the boss will kill the mobs then move into the instance so the respawn won't effect them since they'll be out of there asap anyway.
For step 5; the reason I think an upper-level cap might be necessary is to work with step 4. If your playing WOW and trying to get into a lvl 30-40ish dungeon with your level 35 character and level 60's already cleared the whole dungeon out with ease and are now just sitting and waiting for lowbies to come so they can get their ganking jollies, it'd once again defeat the purpose of having the open dungeon. I know this will prevent you from having your friends run you through with their high-lvl characters but thats kind of a cheap way to play and isn't how the game was ment to be played either.
Hopefully we can come up with even better ideas, but I think this may be a step in the right direction.
Personally, I appears as if WOW itself would improve should a concept of land control be implimented. The instance issue is the tip of the ice burg here folks. Let em stay but please allow the sides to maintain control of thier wins. Simply put, the instanced issue would be welcomed by all if a section of the WOW world would allow land control. This would give everyone what they seek, making the game much more popular. Imagine if you will a server that is land controled. YOu join this server if you want to make a statement about your side, TOTAL FREEDOM. Do not be sucked in by the instance issue...demand what you pay for, the land.
Originally posted by remyburke Instancing and voicechat have killed the MMO community. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people think that competing for spawns with other players is a bad thing.
Because it's boring? Because nothing makes a game suck faster than sitting around waiting for something to respawn so you can kill it and move on?
Competing for spawns is absolutely the worst part of any MMO experience I've had to date. Nothing takes me out of the game faster than having to wait in line to play virtual "whack a mole" in some kind of perverse race to do it faster than X or Y player nearby. It equates to a complete and utter lack of immersion to me.
Instancing is a crutch used by game Devs because of flaws in their world flow. They just pass it off as "helping you make sure no one else ruins your fun"....please.
It's used to give focus to what you're doing instead of making it just a constant kill grind to play. World flow? What MMO has world flow, really? Every single MMO out there is just an open zone of varying types with legions of monsters milling about like cattle.
Give me an instance like the ones in WoW any day. A real encounter that unfolds a story or an event,as opposed to just hacking my way through mob after mob until I finally get to one that has a different name than "Randomcow_01". I'll take the scripted events that an instance can provide any day over the static dungeons of EverQuest or the convenient instanced cattle farms of DaoC.
They put the game back in the game and make it more than just a grind to the next mob for the next drop and so on.
There are plenty of other ways to deal with spawn camping. Look at what Vanguard is doing for example. They give 1 particular group a quest that has triggers throughout an OPEN WORLD that only they can set off, causing a series of spawns and sequences. That's just one way. What about making named mobs spawn completely randomly throughout a certain area? Wow...that would be hard too.
And we still have no idea how well that will work. Who's to say the next spawn won't get wiped out of the open world before the group that initiated it can get there?
Your second point is fine, but there are games that already have wandering named mobs that drop better loot. That's not a new concept, or one that hasn't been implemented already.
I understand the appeal of an open world. I want to see people when I travel.
Instanced dungeons are the only ones I am interested in, though. Without instancing, too often they feel like a shopping mall for loot more than something fun and dangerous and interesting.
Originally posted by dorobu If you want to play in complete instancing, why not just save your money and play NWN over the internet with no monthly fee or over a LAN? I really don't get the whole instancing thing, unless you're not charging monthly fees like Guild Wars. Instancing works fine for them, because you're not paying to play alone. I for one was totally happy to see Vanguard using no instances, but then again, I sort of enjoyed the racing in EQ1
My thoughts exactly, DDO instances as much as GW (or even worse to what I've read), then why the hell would you pay a monthly fee for it? If I play an MMO (read MMO), I want to encounter others, I want to be able to KS/PK and get annoyed when someone KSes/PKs you, it's just part of a good game experience. It brings frustration of course, but what is your victory worth to you if it's only victory you've seen so far? That's right, nothing.
You have to have experienced bad things to be able to enjoy the good things.
I do agree some part of instancing is good and called for in some occasions, but that's NOT the reason why I want to play an MMO and pay a monthly fee. Otherwise I'd just play NWN or something, for free no matter how long I play...
Btw, elder scrolls, now that's one rpg that's just begging for non-instanced online gaming .
I really belive "Instacing" hurts a MMORPG. Mainly due to the fact that when you create instances like the ones in WoW you have maybe two or three guilds that can raid that instance only. Let me give you an example of what im trying to say. Ok I played World of Warcraft for 13 months somthing and I played on the Durotan server "Alliance Side". Well anyway when Blizzard released "BWL" aka Black Wing Liar. There where only 2-3 guilds on the server that could actually kill bosses there. Guildls there where Ebon Order and The Nightcrawlers, and when they completed the all the BWL bosses no one else had a clue of how to follow in there foot steps What im trying to point out is when you make instances like this in a game where only 20-40 can enter it dosen't become fun because it dosent become a server event it becomes select content for certain guilds. This really makes games like WoW unenjoyable and unpleasent for the community that isnt in the "elite" clicks.
This is also the reason why I have quit WoW and waiting for somthing better. Console till then...peace out guys
You don't have to get the bad to enjoy the good. There might be some satisfaction in seeing a story unfold in a very easy game too, or in seeing that spending long time with a game finally pays off. Or simply in knowing that your character (along with a good few thousand others that never really die despite losing many a devastating fight) is one of the most powerful beings in the "universe" that is your current game.
Not exactly what I'd be looking for. But then: My first computer RPGs were single player games, often turn based, taking you through dungeons and quests - with a save option and no real reason to fear. Yet, advancing in power and plot was satisfying.
But there is very little an instanced game can do for you that a single player game, or the online mode of a single player game, couldn't also do for you.
In MMORPGs I look for worlds that can change, dynamic persistence. To me, persistence is not the eternal presence of everything that has at one point been there. To me, persistence is that one day follows the next, the consequences of the past still existing in the future. If the dead are no longer dead, the world is not persistent to me. A static world is just that. Static.
Another note:
The 4/5 step quest model is interesting. I wouldn't like to be blocked from a quest due to my level, though. If you simply level "past" it you'll never get to that piece of the storyline, and... Let us assume that there is a lot of repeatable content and that the world is static (be that persistent or not). I'd want to get to as much of the content as possible.
If you can keep it immersive, you can have hazards that only affect those who stay for long.
For example, in the sulfurous caverns of the twisted dwarf Dolin, let the cracks in the ground emit gases that inhibit the breathing system - slowly. The deeper you go, the worse they are. The counter must give ample time to get through and to a safe place, though.
Event one, upon entry: "You smell thick sulfurous air deeper down."
Event two, deeper down: "Thin cracks in the rock let out barely visible gases. Their stench is significant and they are unpleasant to breathe." - Counter starts, going down at a low rate.
Event three, near the deepest: "The air here is thick with sulfur, dust and other pests. Breathing is a challenge, if not a chore, and you will not be able to stay for long."
Counter event 1: (Counter reaches X, may be defined by constitution) You choke on the unpleasant air and start coughing.
Counter event 2: (Counter reaches Y) The harsh conditions are weakening you, and it feels as though the sulfur is clawing at your lungs from the insides.
Counter event 3: (Counter goes very far) You need to get out of here, or you might regret it for as long as you live. You lack the strength to breathe under these conditions.
Counter event 4: -- permanent damage -- If you're unlucky, staying much longer might kill you
Every 'n' beyond counter event 4: Damage dealt. (Death occurs after permanent damage)
That's just an example
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I love instancing, when it's appropriate and hate it when it's not.
Dungeons, or other closed in areas where "killstealing" and "camping" can be an issue are appropriate. Players sometimes make content unplayable when they do this, especially if the loot system favors people that simply do the most damage, or have the most range. All kills end up going to the highest level player in the room, or the ones with the unique items that happen to do the most damage in the game. If you are on a quest or need xp you sometimes can't get it in shared instances.
This partially ruined SWG for me because there was a group of players on our server that all had legendary weapons, and they camped out the best loot spots in the game nearly 24x7 making it impossible for anyone else to get the loot they needed to build a type of weapon. They were all in a large guild that farmed loot. They simply outdamaged everyone on every spawn and completely controlled the flow of several types of loot. They had weapons that literally killed the thing in 2-3 hits. The average for this type of weapon was around 425, theirs did 1600 before skillmods kicked in. 2 of them could easily outdamage 8 of us, given the same skills.
The weapons they had were unique and nothing like them ever dropped again.
When it's not appropriate is for PvP.
The perfect situation is to have all content available instanced or not instanced. Leave it up to us, the players ; )
People that need or want the help can go into the non-instanced area. Sometimes we don't want anyone stealing our loot, or we (the normal people) would like an equal shot at a type of loot.
Sometimes you just want to do a quest, and not have to deal with 50 people competing for a quest drop.
Games are supposed to be fun, and to me, dealing with spawncampers isn't very fun.
This argument of non-instancing is a pvp players dream is completely wrong. It all goes on experience in a game. Open ended games allow players to interact, games like EQ never allowed pvp till they made a pvp server. In that game , players would pass by and give you sow, (speed of wolf) to move faster, others would cast heals, buffs etc as a new player and you would be able to hunt more effectively then in any instance version of the game.
As I posted before, use instancing to enhance the game not decay it. Instancing should make since. If I am sent to kill a boss mob, it should be instanced, reason.. because that boss will be dead when I am done and when the few thousand ahead of me and behind me do the same quest. There for it shouldn't be in the game to be seen by anyone in a casual wondering situation. If the quest is "find this item" then it shouldn't be instances. Because this item could have been lost again, reason a dumb npc , who knows, but seeing that item again doesn't ruin the immersion of the game.
Instancing should enhance game play not be game play.
I say were is the innovation, why haven't we gotten to a point in these online games were I get a quest and it's scripted out for random events and encounters? or even set ones. Say you get a quest from a town and in your travels to that quest an event occurs that pops an npc who helps you or a group of npc's trying to stop you. Not just the static running aimlessly mobs in the game world, but something you triggered? still haven't seen this and it's easily done. But yet, developers are looking for the "easy" out and that is, in the end what all of this is really about.
Instancing originally was meant to fix the camping issues in eq, now it's just an easy out for less experienced, wanting to whip a title out, lazy developers.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Instancing is for cry babies , EQ1 had it right. Or at least it did back in the day haven't played it for awhile. Camping items for hours, fighting off KSers, having negotiate with the nicer players. All added to a real sense of MMO. Instances only makes games feel more and more like standard multiplayer games and for an experience like that why pay $15 a month?
-all players aren't same so I don't see why every1 should have the same chance of getting THE EQUIPMENT
-it would be soo cool if instances had sense instead beeing just wierd areas where time and and space is just not acting quite right
-until the algoritham which will make a living and changing world possible is written, maybe they should go with rewards, for sissy's some ok stuff in instances but for the real stuff battle the high lvl's, other factions, get your prize ninjaed, or in the lack of better expression no risk no gain (give me legendary stuff when we raid IF and kill the Boss man, but make it hard as hell)
-please remove DK's from civilians, I'm a rogue, I'm bad, I'm a thief, I'm no good and no1 want's to kill Gryphon Masters with me
-sorry sissy's I try to understand and I know u have reasons but in my heart u will always be regarded as sissy's
it is mho that instances takes from mmo if going to instance just play a multiplayer game thats all instancing is
if i wanted to instance i could have stayed playing sfc1 and 2
i play and pay for mmogs MASSIVE MULTI PLAYER online game meaning more than 64 (i could play multiplayer games for free that do 64 players) higher than 1000 players
The problem with this debate is that you are limiting your thinking as if you have blinders on. With pro's and con's being evident on both ends, why not have plenty of each (instance and open) and cater to both sides of the fence so the players can decide which type to run with.
I'm sorry if this ends up being multiposted, the forum is acting weird when I tryed to submit a reply:
I'd have to agree with many of you that over using instances makes an MMO feel like I'm just playing Dungeon Siege with some friends, except I'm paying monthly to do so.
While UO did have many issues, I still feel they did many things right. I don't know how many of you here participated in the Champ Spawn when they first released them, but those to me are still the most fun in an MMO I've had to date. We'd go down there with our guild consisting of about 7 people and fight alongside upwards of over a hundred other people I didn't know all there for one goal, to spawn the Champion and kill it. It could be something that could take hours to do, but it gave you a real sence of accomplishment and it was never easy. Also, since you were fighting with all these other people, you did have to compete for the loot, but that was also part of the fun. If you ended up being the lucky one to get a Champ skull or some sweet items, it felt so good. And if you didn't, it just made you want to try even harder next time.
I also think the one thing they did right in that game was that it 99% skill based and 1% item based (at least till AOS came out), unlike all the MMO's out now. The items you'd use thoughout the game were usually what player made for you. Every once and a while you'd find a better weapon either from a monster you were looting or you'd buy it off another player that looted it. But if you didn't have those "uber" weapons, it didn't effect your ability to take on monsters or players, the only thing that effected that was the player themself.
Instancing can be useful and fun if 2 things are applied to it's usage. The first thing is that it is used in moderation and the second thing is that it's used for something that isn't possible; like really good scripted events. I really dislike how most MMO's handle events in instances. You fight through pre-planted, standard NPC's, you fight a boss who may say some stuff and maybe do something special, and maybe killing that boss with cause another boss to come and do another small event. But they never go really big, they never do something that makes me think, "damn, that was cool" or make me feel like I actually had an effect on something other then I killed a leader to the peons.
In instances, they could have you completely destroy rooms or places, or have choices were it would effect the outcome of the instance But I don't ever see anything that couldn't be done outside the instance. Their only reason for using them is to stop camping and griefing. I want to see some sick stuff with multiple paths, options, etc. I want them to show me that there is actually a reason they're using this instance, something that could only be feasable in an instance. Come on devs, get creative.
Originally posted by BileFroth Instancing is for cry babies , EQ1 had it right. Or at least it did back in the day haven't played it for awhile. Camping items for hours, fighting off KSers, having negotiate with the nicer players. All added to a real sense of MMO. Instances only makes games feel more and more like standard multiplayer games and for an experience like that why pay $15 a month?
Dude that's what im talking about! That was a sweet game
This guy knows what hes talking about. instancing doesnt disturb the feeling of a large community at all. In fact it just helps you from being disturbed. If the game is not instanced at all, it takes some of the fun away in my opinion.[/b][/quote]
you obviously don't know what your talking about, instancing limits the ability of the comunity to interact, and as said many times before, if you include instances games as and MMO, then by all acounts BattleField 2, counter strike, and other games of that ilk slot straight into the MMO, the only difference is that BF2 and CSS don't have 3D worlds for gaming lobbies, at the end of the day Guild wars, DDO and other instanced games, *tho instancing will work well for DDO because it's DnD* are NOT MMO's, imho a MMO should let the player choose how they live there *role play* lives of there toons, though 'Choice'. some one chooses to steal my mob kill, erm, lets see dead mob's can be locked to the player that dusted it.
But that is it and now were coming to the crux of the problem, instancing is just a way to hide the fact that the dev's are lazy in the design front, OK so this is more due to the time constraints put on them by the publishers wanting to make a quick buck. The problem in MMO's is that they try and copy the single player RPG's which were hack and slash for EXP. Grinding is NOT fun, having to kill monster after monster to gain exp is just pointless, there is another way people, where you get rewarded for your actions, not just killing mob's.
Instancing in MMO's takes the MM out of the game, and it is there to cover up the fact that the game is just one big GRIND for exp, because there is no 'real' content held inside them.
IF only they had produced SGW in the right way. it had so many possiblilities.
there are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.
I believe isntancing in an MMO is not inherenetly bad but depends on the MMO and what it is like, what type of MMO it is.
WoW for example is an MMO that can succesfully incoirporate instancing. I mean, why the hell not, it's not like WoW interaction is of a high degree anyway compared to other games in the genre. Nor is the market player driven and this unduly influenced.
But the game I currently play, Eve-Online, would suffer badly from instancing. It's not a game in which pve has a role much larger then resource gathering anyway. And if there's one game in which interaction is essential, and should not be a choice but a requirement, it's this one.
Eve-Online knows no true instancing. There is however a form of semi-instancing in it. Agent missions (pve encounters assigned by an NPC to you on your request), oftenly take place at locations so remote that other players aren't able to easily go into the 'dungeon' that was spawned specifically for you. Yet, the possibility is always there that someone will, and comes to steal your loot or destroy your ship. Only by choice can you share these semi-instances with others, the default is that acess requires effort, and since the location changes every time a new dungeon is spawned for you, not many take the trouble of finding yours.
Now, as to why I dont like true instances. True instances take away risk in games that have an pvp element. In those games in that subgenre I like, that option of 100% safety should simply not exist. Just like killing someone requires effort, so should not getitng killed. Basic game balance when it comes to these games imo.
Another subgenre that doesn't have much place for true instancing is MMO's with purely player driven markets. These would imo be too open to their markets being affected negatively by even a small imbalance in some instances. Overfarming of instances would mean oversupply of the loot found there. That could aversely affect any players that gets the same resource elsewhere. And it also means that that market is no longer served iwth an element of competition.
Competitive games with player driven markets and an element of pvp in them therefore, especially those in which interaction is essential, are not served by true instancing in any way. Competition for resources of all kinds, risk of pvp encounters and neccesity to interact are invariably detracted from by instancing.
Since I play Eve-Online, which answers all of the characteristics named above, I am of the opinion instancing is bad for my gameplay. I probably would not consider playing a game that has instancing in it at all, since that game could not answer to the characteristics I named, and therefore would not appeal to me.
Of course, It's a matter of taste altogether. I can imagine players with a different taste and a yearning for pve that is at the core of a game in which player-driven markets are not essential, and competition is very limited, would be served well by instancing.
Can we discuss something that's not simply a matter of taste next time please guys ? I mean, the last subject was very similar in that respect. You''re simply taking about those matters that are recognised to be key elements that divide the MMO genre into it's subgenres.
Can we talk about say, RMT, the role of time in MMO's as a competition-spoiler, or maybe just something as mundane as how important it is to an MMO to allow it's players to play a part in shaping it's world ? Not very shocking no, but at least it can lead to insightfull questions that aren't just answered with differences in taste ?
Someone almost having an orgasm talking about the beauty of his/her eliteist point of view on how online RPG's should be cookie cutter and follow all the things that make it suck so bad becuase we should all be forced to like it and grow from it becuase its l33t, and its pWNEd! Who the heck are you people? Its a game, it caters to a specific audience, namely the one that likes playing it. I hate almost every MMORPG I have ever played for all the reasons you seem to love it. Chat channels being spammed with 1000's of abbreviations. Quests and dungeons are like cheap used whores, and all you get is sloppy seconds. Nothing is new or exciting. No story! Who cares about story! Just goto the camp points and kill respawning monsters to power level so you can run into the people and have them admire how special you are. Thats what you consider is crucial to your enjoyment? I am special becuase I can twitch react faster than you! Or I am better than you becuase I can click faster, or my keyboard shortcuts are better layed out than yours? Thats just silly, but if thats what floats your boat, then go for it. I want my online Role Playing Game to actually have role playing in it, and the most important element in role playing is story. Without a good story that involves me, all you have is a mind numbing click fest experience. You don't even need words, just point and click, and then feel special. Why think? Just follow the horde of people wacking away at the other people and start whacking away at something yourself. OOOOHHHH, I feel special now. That whole community thing you were talking about is making sense now, the rest of the game sucks so I have to compensate for the mind numbing fun by showing how uber l33t I am in the chat channel and having my fellow group/guild talk snobishly to the other 'lower' people. I see it now, its the whole class distinction ego trip thing.
Instancing will save me from having to play with people like you. Thank you! There is a GOD! You can't have a true Role Playing Game unless you use instancing, there is no way around it, some arguments about an NPC being dumb and loosing the same item every 3 seconds is ridiculous. Maybe you just don't understand, or you have never actually played a "Pen and Paper" game. You should try it! Then you might understand the roots of all RPG's. Before you were whining and pissing about needing a graphics card upgrade people were playing games with math, words, and really good stories. Without instancing, all you have is a mindless action game.
Read my text! Up until now, NO ONE, has even come close to making an online Role Playing Game. Yes they use the word 'RPG' but they are NO 'RPG'. Sure they have some elements of it, but its really an action game. It should be called " " Massively Multiplayer Online Clicking Camping Pwning Spamming Internet Relay Chat Eliteist Action Game with Elements from a Role Playing Game"
MMOCCPSIRCEAGERPG
So its safe to say that is what you like. Some people like blondes and other prefer black, its all a matter of preference. If you truly understood D&D and why so many people grew up enjoying it, you would understand that D&D was written as an instance itself, as a matter of fact, all PnP RPG's are instance based. So how is it that we have games that called themselves RPG's but were missing the very element that makes an RPG worth playing? If I ever heard my DM say "...And you arrive at the last chamber and you see 45 people standing around a treasure chest (appearently its empty) and you hear people saying "I pWnEd you!" and "MOOOO!" in an almost annoying voice, while others are jumping up and down swinging wildly at walls, people, and nothing! It also appears the Dragon has already been slain. Everyone take a 30 minute break while I respawn this game.". I would kick his sorry butt out and no one would ever play with that DM again. If you want community then goto an IRC porn channel and talk about your feelings.
Instancing in no way limits my ability to interact, the game engine and user interface do.
Originally posted by hadz Originally posted by Stevesan Instancing has nothing to do with the original princip of an MMORPG. WoW for example is not a true MMORPG it is more an advanced Diablo. So to say, yes a true MMORPG is defintily damaged by using instances, cause as soon as instances are used the true concept of MMORPGs is negated You say "true concept" and "original principles" of MMORPGs are being negated... Tell me how instancing does this? Most types of instancing change absolutely nothing in a MMORPG other than effectively reserve mobs for certain groups to kill undisturbed... So...unless a person is PLANNING to DISTURB those killing mobs...it shouldn't matter at all right? I mean you can still easily find groups to XP with, you can still easily talk to others, you can still get the feeling of being in a massive multiplayer world (even GW gives you that feeling to some extent, and it's basically entirely instanced...and WoW and EQ2 CERTAINLY give you that feeling...so you can't call either Diablo, I'm sorry!) in fact you can do basically everything that EVERY mmorpg has whether instanced or not...So the ONLY POSSIBLE thing you could plan to do that instancing STOPS you from doing is DISTURB another players game, well, the other thing it stops is randomly helping someone too. So, unless you tell me you want to get rid of instancing so you can randomly HEAL someone or save from death...then I'm going to have to disagree with you.
I will use UO in its "old" days for example, that was befor the world was divided into three different worlds, where one was the Free For All and the rest was more or less protected. The concept behind that origin concept was to give the player the possibility to decide by themselfs what to do. An example, when i played yesterday on a great free-shard of UO I tried to enter the dungeon Despise. Two PKs showed up and hunted me down infront of the dungeon and killed me. When i showed up as a ghost hoping to get rezzed those two guys said: Sorry brother we have control of the passage to Despise and when u want to pass in u have to pay for passage! I think to myself, ok good point if those are prepared to do so and play that "role" I am fine with it and feel challanged. So the next approache i was more carefull and stealthed through that passage and made it into the dungeon without getting killed. I feel a little victorious cause the game offers to counteract almost any action players do, if u are just clever enough to take advantage of it. And even more important with that is, that i did my duties inside the dungeon always watching my back cause i always had to expect those guys to show up and fight for their "right" to control the passage. This thrill is it that even makes PvE fun cause u always expect the PvP comin in and then u have to fight on two sides which is a real challange.
Another example. In the early days PKs started to slay noobs in the eastern woods. The result was that guilds formed to protect the eastern woods to make it a saver place for noobs again and many great fights between the PK guilds and the "protective" guilds came up. A great fun which ended in many reallife friendships all over europe. Another guy was roleplaying the protector of the liches (some mobs) in a certain dungeon. If u started to kill those liches that guy showed up, owned u badly and forced u to retreat with a red sash as present and the advise to wear that sash if u want to wander there unharmed as long as u dont touch his protectives the liches. There are millions of examples such a free world comes up with, which is great for entertainment and always brings up new things cause the world is left to the players and for them to decide what to do and what not. That saves the world from being repetitive and getting boring cause every day there is a new challange comin up u can participate with if u like.
And now back to the point of instances... Those above described things dont happen in games based on instances cause its made almost 100% safe for people to go and "hide" in that instance. I hope that makes the point clear what a big difference instances are doing to a so called virtual world.
And this always leads to the followup discussion that there are two different typs of players playing MMORPGs. Those who like the above described examples and those who dont. I did quit WOW after half a year just because of the fact that there was no REAL interaction between players and no elements of "making a difference" were in the game. I dont mind getting killed by others as long as i can learn from it to make it better next time (I definitly start cursing them and sometimes even get angry but that is the same to a basketball player that gets slamdunked into his face). Without that there is no real challenge for me in an MMO cause killing scripted NPCs is no big thing in my eyes. It is definitly part of the game but not what it makes fun for me in long term. And as a guildmate of mine said in a manifest about MMOs which i will link a bit further down cause it helps explaining my arguments: Playing an MMORPG based on instances is like playing poker without winning or loosing money:
P.S: And to make that clear; i dont blame or hate players that dont like the competitive style: Its everyone himself to make this choice. All i can say about this is that those people miss the true fun in an MMORPG in my eyes. But that aswell is a question of perspective. So all i can do is to raise my voice to let developers know that there is a group of people that want the competitive free style of MMOs and not a chain-cuffed zoo :-)
Originally posted by Gikku I played EQ for 5 years. When I began it was an open world. Then with Plans of Power came instance and more high end stuff. There was always a battle to get the named bosses when they spawned, a great deal of framing and such. With the instance zones at least it was just your group in that zone and you didn't have to worry about ksing and the like. There is no fun in going to get a mob and have high lvls farming that mob. There was long camps some days and weeks to finally get what you needed. The game became something more for the hard core player and less for the player who could not invest all that time. The only way to get you the really uber stuff was to be in a guild and raid alot. EQ continue on a line that was directed to high end and the casual player was stuck. I tried EQ2 but with the trial you could only be on that one island and make lvl 6. For me that just wasn't enough to get a real feel for the game. AC2 had instances and they were great. You could even solo some of them if you didn't have time for a group. Maybe not get the boss without help. If memory serves me on their instances it was not what you would call and instance as others could come in where you were. Instance zones keep the fight for the boss down and give you a private area for you and your group to get items and mobs for a quest without dealing with kser's and farmers. I really don't feel instance zones take away from a game they help with issues that were causing many peeps to quit games because they were forced to be in a guild after a certain lvl just to get things done and get better gear. The high end game is not for everyone some just want to relax and hide from the real world for a bit and meet new friends while they do so. I am sure it is a hard task for game designers to come up with a game that works well for the most part to keep the majority happy. Lets face it they can't please everyone. Horde and Allicance can't group but now there are neutral auction houses so they can sell stuff that both can buy. I think instances are a good thing, it solved some issues that helped the whole of the world without taking away from it. I guess it hurts those who do all the farming but it helped the community as a whole.
Just want to point out for your post that it is about PvE only. For people that like PvE only and only want PvE "Instances" are a really great thing to avoid all the mentioned problems form EQ1 and 2 and such games. But those are almost pure PvE concepts and have nothing to do with the question about "Isntances" in a world where u want to see PvP.
And to use WOW as an example; In this game u can chose to play on a PvP or PvE realm. The sad thing is that it doesnt make a difference cause even the PvP realms are just PvE realms. And why is that? Due to "instances".
But well jsut wnated to point out that we have to watch what we are talking about in this thread...PvE wise no doubt about instances; concerning PvP "Instances" do definitly a great damage IMHO.
Comments
SWG had this but it also suffered huge problems along side and because of it.
The major problem they had was that the server reset would bring about the 1 and only spawn of certain boss/mobs. This meant that the major guilds would ensure they woke and logged on at exactly server start and killed all the bosses before anyone else would log on. This was abviously flawed.
It is no excuse for introducing instances as the answer though. How about make them random and you have spend the day hunting them down or a hunter could try tracking it or something then the guild can prepare and intercept. Anything but instances, please! Over and over and over and over and over and over...
Thania
SWG had this but it also suffered huge problems along side and because of it.
The major problem they had was that the server reset would bring about the 1 and only spawn of certain boss/mobs. This meant that the major guilds would ensure they woke and logged on at exactly server start and killed all the bosses before anyone else would log on. This was abviously flawed.
It is no excuse for introducing instances as the answer though. How about make them random and you have spend the day hunting them down or a hunter could try tracking it or something then the guild can prepare and intercept. Anything but instances, please! Over and over and over and over and over and over...
Thania
hmm odd, that's easy to overcome. make the boss spawn at random times, People will stand around and kill eachother waiting for it. However, without a death penalty to PVP this is a bit pointless.
Instances, properly done, would mean that you hadn't noticed that you were in one. Likewise others shouldn't be able to notice you're in one either.
Immersion should be the key for MMO's otherwise we could all be playing PnP rpgs or teh consol games of our choice. If I want the classic DnD experience I'll gather my gaming buddies together and we'll go on a dungeon hack; it's prefered to sitting going pale in front of our computers. I doubt I'll be playing DDO.
Instancing, as has already been said, is to MMOs as the module was to old school DnD. While I have fond memories of the DM turning up for the game with a nasty gleam in his eyes and a shiny new adventure, fresh from the store yet already sporting a hundred weight of bookmarks, grasped tightly in his fist. We all gathered our character sheets together with apphrehension knowning that hit points were going to be spilled... glory days but not what I play MMOs for. I mean if I want to have that experience online I'd play NWN.
MMORPG's are currently stuck where first generation PnP RPG's were twenty years ago. Unless the industry is seriously challenged we'll continue to go nowhere fast.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- The Road Not Taken by Robert Frost
I'm pro instances and contra PvP.
The problem is that the contra instance faction thinks instances change the community. Features like instances can have that effect, but every other feature too.
When instances hurt the community why was it so easy to find a group in Guild Wars. Why so difficult in DAOC.
Instances are the means to make a world immersive, to bring more atmosphere for groups. If i get a quest to kill a villian, how interesting is it to get through the dungeon without a kill and to wait in line with 30 others to make the kill.
In contrast one big world. You wander the sandy wastes of tatoine and can't see a grain of sand because of all the factories. One big world is less persistent that instancing when everything respawn and nothing ever realy changes. The only persistent thing is the charakter and his inventory.
While i see the arguments that say instances keep players from contact with the community why where my best interaction with other players in instances?
I think the difference is the world mechanic. I think you can make an mmorp with only instancing that is far more persisten an has a better community than an mmorpg with an open world.
Looking at the existing MMORPGs you can see that the difference lies in motivation. There are boring MMORPGs that lack features and things to do, but they attrackt a good community. Because of the lack of goals the players use the community to generate new goals and atmosphere.
If you take instances and make them the only goal for a high lvl character you will get no real community but a guild oriented community. Modern MMORPGs try to motivate the players and guide them to different ways to improve their charakters. Most of them miss real goals that further the community.
So i think not instancing is the problem but the goals and motivations. If you have to many goals and motivations that are contra community then you will end with a weak community.
I've played three wide open games without instancing. Dark Ages of Camelot before the addon after Trials of Atlantis, Ultima Online, EVE (well it has what seem to be small instances and not these huge massive isntances). I've played some games with instancing: Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, the beta for AD&D. I've dabbled in numerous other games.
Early on, when things are easy, yes, it is easy to get a group in any of these games period unless the game has aged and there just aren't a lot of beginning players left around to play. Instancing or not, it really doesn't matter.
And in all these games, big guilds (corps in EVE) tend to dominate the action and there members get experiences that other people have a hard time achieving.
The problem with instancing, especially with high end content for all MMORPGs, is that it is incredibly time consuming. It is a lot easier to jump in and join a raid in DAOC when you just have to catch up to the raid rather than be there for the beginning. You can finish part of a Trial, for instance, one day and catch up to finish it later. You can often catch up to the crowd in the epic dungons. In EVE, you can jump in and help out in an alliance war or whatnot as soon as you log on. Ultima Online was always available to play right away.
The instance intensive games, however, all have aspects that are exceedingly difficult to finish in one sitting without a very large time commitment and it is IMPOSSIBLE to catch up with your friends. WoW requires HUGE blocks of time to get through some of the dungeons. To go through the non-storyline dungeons in Guildwars (the Rift and the others) you have to be there for hours as well. I fear that the higher level AD&D content will be the same.
A poster before me talked about one of my biggest problems with the instanced world; however, he got it all wrong. He talked about persistence. Well, we want our characters to last from session to session, which all games have, but he talked as though a wide open world never changed from session to session as opposed to an instanced world. I must agree that the world is VERY persistent in an instanced world. The result is quite the opposite of what the poster meant however. In fact, those instances will be there forever and nothing will ever change. You will have absolutely no impact on the world. The guy that comes along later will face the same old instances of challenge. Very persistent. Rock solid persistent in every aspect.
The more instanced intensive the game, the more that the exact same circumstances will play out over and over again. In Guildwars, people sell their services because they have "cracked" a particular instance. The same strategy is used over and over and over, because the same exact encounters are played out over and over again. Too persistent if you ask me.
I like a world that changes. My achievements might stay with me in the form of experience or abilities or items, but to have any impact on the world, something has to change. NOTHING that we do in WoW changes anything at all. In DAOC, PvP has an impact on everybody. Territory changes hands (they merely need to make it more so in that resources are important and change hands too). In EVE, autonomy over systems goes back and forth, invasions of whole sections of space occurs, markets can be disrupted. Ultima Online . . . well, I don't know about how things are now, they moved toward the dynamic spawn but still, rather persistent. Instancing is only one way of making a world unchangeable.
The only way I would much care for isntancing is if somebody were changing the instances along the way based on what I did in the others. Again, though, that's kind of an individual experience
In the end, the thing about instancing is that there's nothing in it that appeals to or requires a realmwide, nationwide, alliancewide effort. It's all about your guild or your group and nothing about it pulls you outside that group. You can leave it if you want, but nothing tugs you to do so.
This problem can happen with or without instancing, but I think that the best games pull you outside your little group in a game to interact meaningfully IN THE GAME with the community at large. That's why games like DAOC or EVE to me are much more engaging and immersive. They aren't perfect.
In the end, there's not much atmosphere in a game that you can't touch or change in some meaningful way. To find out that so and so is fighting the same fight you just finished is NEVER immersive whether it is a spawn or an instance.
In an all isntanced world, as soon as you are in a group where somebody is telling you (ordering you) to do this or that because they have done it before, it loses all of its immersiveness for me. In fact, to go through an instanced game I would prefer to be in one group that goes through the whole game all by itself, joining with other virgin groups when necessary to get over larger challenges. And to do that, you have to ignore the community completely. (The puzzles in the Trials of Atlantis were a puzzle for only the first group of beta players. It was a set of instructions (with an obnoxious dictator reading them virbatum) and a pretty walk-thru for the rest of us).
So if you want to be immersed in a non-repetitive game period, I think it is best to ignore the community completely. Since instanced games are the most repetitive, they lend themselves least to community play.
I have yet to find a game that really satisfies me, of course. But I think that the more satisfying games either have designers that write content in reaction to player actions in the game or the players are provided with a good environment for stirring up their own events and changes in the game that have in-game meaning.
I've played Ragnarok, COH, and WoW mostly(I tried FFXI for a few days and have played Toontown's 3 day trial more than once XD). I think CoH's instances would be alot more fun if they said 'Here, you go into the lair of the _____ but take these random PCs with you, I think they'll help'. It would make it more interactive and if you got stuck with a group you didn't like you could just leave them and solo your instance. Also, I think you should be able to communicate with the outside world O_o. A big lure of CoH is just hanging out in Atlas Park(the newb zone) and chatting and I know I enjoy Westfall's chat in WoW and get pissed when I have to fly back to Stormforge to buy something and have to listen to their general chats about Chuck Noris. I could see similar irritations with instances.
In conclusion: I don't mind instances but put some real people in them!
On the subject of trying to find a solution instead of stating the problem. I think taking a couple different ideas from users on here could make something to move in the right step.
Step 1: Make dungeons un-instanced.
Step 2: Make bosses instanced.
Step 3: Make bosses available to only those with a repeatable quest for him.
Step 4: Make sure there are high level and difficult mobs outside the boss door.
Step 5: (Optional) Put an upper-level cap on dungeons.
To clarify on step 3; You can fight all the way up to the boss room in a completely open, un-instanced dungeon. To get into the boss room, you will need a quest that you can get from an NPC over and over. (Maybe a timelimit on how long before you and the people in your group can get the quest again to prevent farming) Now if you have that quest, it will be shared with your whole group so when you enter the boss room, it's just you and your friends.
To clarify on step 4; What I'd like to see would be a decent amount of fairly hard mobs that spawn often. The reason for this because the instance entrance would be both a bottle neck and a perfect place for griefers to sit and wait to just keep ganking anyone going for the boss. If you have a good amount of hard mobs that spawn frequently it will deter and make it very difficult for people to just sit there and wait around. Everyone who's there for the boss will kill the mobs then move into the instance so the respawn won't effect them since they'll be out of there asap anyway.
For step 5; the reason I think an upper-level cap might be necessary is to work with step 4. If your playing WOW and trying to get into a lvl 30-40ish dungeon with your level 35 character and level 60's already cleared the whole dungeon out with ease and are now just sitting and waiting for lowbies to come so they can get their ganking jollies, it'd once again defeat the purpose of having the open dungeon. I know this will prevent you from having your friends run you through with their high-lvl characters but thats kind of a cheap way to play and isn't how the game was ment to be played either.
Hopefully we can come up with even better ideas, but I think this may be a step in the right direction.
Personally, I appears as if WOW itself would improve should a concept of land control be implimented. The instance issue is the tip of the ice burg here folks. Let em stay but please allow the sides to maintain control of thier wins. Simply put, the instanced issue would be welcomed by all if a section of the WOW world would allow land control. This would give everyone what they seek, making the game much more popular. Imagine if you will a server that is land controled. YOu join this server if you want to make a statement about your side, TOTAL FREEDOM. Do not be sucked in by the instance issue...demand what you pay for, the land.
SEA
Because it's boring? Because nothing makes a game suck faster than sitting around waiting for something to respawn so you can kill it and move on?
Competing for spawns is absolutely the worst part of any MMO experience I've had to date. Nothing takes me out of the game faster than having to wait in line to play virtual "whack a mole" in some kind of perverse race to do it faster than X or Y player nearby. It equates to a complete and utter lack of immersion to me.
It's used to give focus to what you're doing instead of making it just a constant kill grind to play. World flow? What MMO has world flow, really? Every single MMO out there is just an open zone of varying types with legions of monsters milling about like cattle.
Give me an instance like the ones in WoW any day. A real encounter that unfolds a story or an event,as opposed to just hacking my way through mob after mob until I finally get to one that has a different name than "Randomcow_01". I'll take the scripted events that an instance can provide any day over the static dungeons of EverQuest or the convenient instanced cattle farms of DaoC.
They put the game back in the game and make it more than just a grind to the next mob for the next drop and so on.
And we still have no idea how well that will work. Who's to say the next spawn won't get wiped out of the open world before the group that initiated it can get there?
Your second point is fine, but there are games that already have wandering named mobs that drop better loot. That's not a new concept, or one that hasn't been implemented already.
I understand the appeal of an open world. I want to see people when I travel.
Instanced dungeons are the only ones I am interested in, though. Without instancing, too often they feel like a shopping mall for loot more than something fun and dangerous and interesting.
My thoughts exactly, DDO instances as much as GW (or even worse to what I've read), then why the hell would you pay a monthly fee for it? If I play an MMO (read MMO), I want to encounter others, I want to be able to KS/PK and get annoyed when someone KSes/PKs you, it's just part of a good game experience. It brings frustration of course, but what is your victory worth to you if it's only victory you've seen so far? That's right, nothing.
You have to have experienced bad things to be able to enjoy the good things.
I do agree some part of instancing is good and called for in some occasions, but that's NOT the reason why I want to play an MMO and pay a monthly fee. Otherwise I'd just play NWN or something, for free no matter how long I play...
Btw, elder scrolls, now that's one rpg that's just begging for non-instanced online gaming
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I really belive "Instacing" hurts a MMORPG. Mainly due to the fact that when you create instances like the ones in WoW you have maybe two or three guilds that can raid that instance only. Let me give you an example of what im trying to say. Ok I played World of Warcraft for 13 months somthing and I played on the Durotan server "Alliance Side". Well anyway when Blizzard released "BWL" aka Black Wing Liar. There where only 2-3 guilds on the server that could actually kill bosses there. Guildls there where Ebon Order and The Nightcrawlers, and when they completed the all the BWL bosses no one else had a clue of how to follow in there foot steps
What im trying to point out is when you make instances like this in a game where only 20-40 can enter it dosen't become fun because it dosent become a server event it becomes select content for certain guilds. This really makes games like WoW unenjoyable and unpleasent for the community that isnt in the "elite" clicks.
This is also the reason why I have quit WoW and waiting for somthing better. Console till then...peace out guys
(Akiraosc)
One thing though:
You don't have to get the bad to enjoy the good. There might be some satisfaction in seeing a story unfold in a very easy game too, or in seeing that spending long time with a game finally pays off. Or simply in knowing that your character (along with a good few thousand others that never really die despite losing many a devastating fight) is one of the most powerful beings in the "universe" that is your current game.
Not exactly what I'd be looking for. But then: My first computer RPGs were single player games, often turn based, taking you through dungeons and quests - with a save option and no real reason to fear. Yet, advancing in power and plot was satisfying.
But there is very little an instanced game can do for you that a single player game, or the online mode of a single player game, couldn't also do for you.
In MMORPGs I look for worlds that can change, dynamic persistence. To me, persistence is not the eternal presence of everything that has at one point been there. To me, persistence is that one day follows the next, the consequences of the past still existing in the future. If the dead are no longer dead, the world is not persistent to me. A static world is just that. Static.
Another note:
The 4/5 step quest model is interesting. I wouldn't like to be blocked from a quest due to my level, though. If you simply level "past" it you'll never get to that piece of the storyline, and... Let us assume that there is a lot of repeatable content and that the world is static (be that persistent or not). I'd want to get to as much of the content as possible.
If you can keep it immersive, you can have hazards that only affect those who stay for long.
For example, in the sulfurous caverns of the twisted dwarf Dolin, let the cracks in the ground emit gases that inhibit the breathing system - slowly. The deeper you go, the worse they are. The counter must give ample time to get through and to a safe place, though.
Event one, upon entry: "You smell thick sulfurous air deeper down."
Event two, deeper down: "Thin cracks in the rock let out barely visible gases. Their stench is significant and they are unpleasant to breathe." - Counter starts, going down at a low rate.
Event three, near the deepest: "The air here is thick with sulfur, dust and other pests. Breathing is a challenge, if not a chore, and you will not be able to stay for long."
Counter event 1: (Counter reaches X, may be defined by constitution) You choke on the unpleasant air and start coughing.
Counter event 2: (Counter reaches Y) The harsh conditions are weakening you, and it feels as though the sulfur is clawing at your lungs from the insides.
Counter event 3: (Counter goes very far) You need to get out of here, or you might regret it for as long as you live. You lack the strength to breathe under these conditions.
Counter event 4: -- permanent damage -- If you're unlucky, staying much longer might kill you
Every 'n' beyond counter event 4: Damage dealt. (Death occurs after permanent damage)
That's just an example
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I love instancing, when it's appropriate and hate it when it's not.
Dungeons, or other closed in areas where "killstealing" and "camping" can be an issue are appropriate. Players sometimes make content unplayable when they do this, especially if the loot system favors people that simply do the most damage, or have the most range. All kills end up going to the highest level player in the room, or the ones with the unique items that happen to do the most damage in the game. If you are on a quest or need xp you sometimes can't get it in shared instances.
This partially ruined SWG for me because there was a group of players on our server that all had legendary weapons, and they camped out the best loot spots in the game nearly 24x7 making it impossible for anyone else to get the loot they needed to build a type of weapon. They were all in a large guild that farmed loot. They simply outdamaged everyone on every spawn and completely controlled the flow of several types of loot. They had weapons that literally killed the thing in 2-3 hits. The average for this type of weapon was around 425, theirs did 1600 before skillmods kicked in. 2 of them could easily outdamage 8 of us, given the same skills.
The weapons they had were unique and nothing like them ever dropped again.
When it's not appropriate is for PvP.
The perfect situation is to have all content available instanced or not instanced. Leave it up to us, the players ; )
People that need or want the help can go into the non-instanced area. Sometimes we don't want anyone stealing our loot, or we (the normal people) would like an equal shot at a type of loot.
Sometimes you just want to do a quest, and not have to deal with 50 people competing for a quest drop.
Games are supposed to be fun, and to me, dealing with spawncampers isn't very fun.
-Viza
This argument of non-instancing is a pvp players dream is completely wrong. It all goes on experience in a game. Open ended games allow players to interact, games like EQ never allowed pvp till they made a pvp server. In that game , players would pass by and give you sow, (speed of wolf) to move faster, others would cast heals, buffs etc as a new player and you would be able to hunt more effectively then in any instance version of the game.
As I posted before, use instancing to enhance the game not decay it. Instancing should make since. If I am sent to kill a boss mob, it should be instanced, reason.. because that boss will be dead when I am done and when the few thousand ahead of me and behind me do the same quest. There for it shouldn't be in the game to be seen by anyone in a casual wondering situation. If the quest is "find this item" then it shouldn't be instances. Because this item could have been lost again, reason a dumb npc , who knows, but seeing that item again doesn't ruin the immersion of the game.
Instancing should enhance game play not be game play.
I say were is the innovation, why haven't we gotten to a point in these online games were I get a quest and it's scripted out for random events and encounters? or even set ones. Say you get a quest from a town and in your travels to that quest an event occurs that pops an npc who helps you or a group of npc's trying to stop you. Not just the static running aimlessly mobs in the game world, but something you triggered? still haven't seen this and it's easily done. But yet, developers are looking for the "easy" out and that is, in the end what all of this is really about.
Instancing originally was meant to fix the camping issues in eq, now it's just an easy out for less experienced, wanting to whip a title out, lazy developers.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Instancing is for cry babies
, EQ1 had it right. Or at least it did back in the day haven't played it for awhile. Camping items for hours, fighting off KSers, having negotiate with the nicer players. All added to a real sense of MMO. Instances only makes games feel more and more like standard multiplayer games and for an experience like that why pay $15 a month?
-all players aren't same so I don't see why every1 should have the same chance of getting THE EQUIPMENT
-it would be soo cool if instances had sense instead beeing just wierd areas where time and and space is just not acting quite right
-until the algoritham which will make a living and changing world possible is written, maybe they should go with rewards, for sissy's some ok stuff in instances but for the real stuff battle the high lvl's, other factions, get your prize ninjaed, or in the lack of better expression no risk no gain (give me legendary stuff when we raid IF and kill the Boss man, but make it hard as hell)
-please remove DK's from civilians, I'm a rogue, I'm bad, I'm a thief, I'm no good and no1 want's to kill Gryphon Masters with me
-sorry sissy's I try to understand and I know u have reasons but in my heart u will always be regarded as sissy's
CHUCK NORRIS DOESENT SLEEP, HE WAITS!
if i wanted to instance i could have stayed playing sfc1 and 2
i play and pay for mmogs MASSIVE MULTI PLAYER online game meaning more than 64 (i could play multiplayer games for free that do 64 players) higher than 1000 players
i fight the battles other fear
EagleRanger
I'm sorry if this ends up being multiposted, the forum is acting weird when I tryed to submit a reply:
I'd have to agree with many of you that over using instances makes an MMO feel like I'm just playing Dungeon Siege with some friends, except I'm paying monthly to do so.
While UO did have many issues, I still feel they did many things right. I don't know how many of you here participated in the Champ Spawn when they first released them, but those to me are still the most fun in an MMO I've had to date. We'd go down there with our guild consisting of about 7 people and fight alongside upwards of over a hundred other people I didn't know all there for one goal, to spawn the Champion and kill it. It could be something that could take hours to do, but it gave you a real sence of accomplishment and it was never easy. Also, since you were fighting with all these other people, you did have to compete for the loot, but that was also part of the fun. If you ended up being the lucky one to get a Champ skull or some sweet items, it felt so good. And if you didn't, it just made you want to try even harder next time.
I also think the one thing they did right in that game was that it 99% skill based and 1% item based (at least till AOS came out), unlike all the MMO's out now. The items you'd use thoughout the game were usually what player made for you. Every once and a while you'd find a better weapon either from a monster you were looting or you'd buy it off another player that looted it. But if you didn't have those "uber" weapons, it didn't effect your ability to take on monsters or players, the only thing that effected that was the player themself.
Instancing can be useful and fun if 2 things are applied to it's usage. The first thing is that it is used in moderation and the second thing is that it's used for something that isn't possible; like really good scripted events. I really dislike how most MMO's handle events in instances. You fight through pre-planted, standard NPC's, you fight a boss who may say some stuff and maybe do something special, and maybe killing that boss with cause another boss to come and do another small event. But they never go really big, they never do something that makes me think, "damn, that was cool" or make me feel like I actually had an effect on something other then I killed a leader to the peons.
In instances, they could have you completely destroy rooms or places, or have choices were it would effect the outcome of the instance But I don't ever see anything that couldn't be done outside the instance. Their only reason for using them is to stop camping and griefing. I want to see some sick stuff with multiple paths, options, etc. I want them to show me that there is actually a reason they're using this instance, something that could only be feasable in an instance. Come on devs, get creative.
(Akiraosc)
[quote]Originally posted by JigsawJesus
This guy knows what hes talking about.
instancing doesnt disturb the feeling of a large community at all.
In fact it just helps you from being disturbed.
If the game is not instanced at all, it takes some of the fun away in my opinion.[/b][/quote]
you obviously don't know what your talking about, instancing limits the ability of the comunity to interact, and as said many times before, if you include instances games as and MMO, then by all acounts BattleField 2, counter strike, and other games of that ilk slot straight into the MMO, the only difference is that BF2 and CSS don't have 3D worlds for gaming lobbies, at the end of the day Guild wars, DDO and other instanced games, *tho instancing will work well for DDO because it's DnD* are NOT MMO's, imho a MMO should let the player choose how they live there *role play* lives of there toons, though 'Choice'. some one chooses to steal my mob kill, erm, lets see dead mob's can be locked to the player that dusted it.
But that is it and now were coming to the crux of the problem, instancing is just a way to hide the fact that the dev's are lazy in the design front, OK so this is more due to the time constraints put on them by the publishers wanting to make a quick buck.
The problem in MMO's is that they try and copy the single player RPG's which were hack and slash for EXP.
Grinding is NOT fun, having to kill monster after monster to gain exp is just pointless, there is another way people, where you get rewarded for your actions, not just killing mob's.
Instancing in MMO's takes the MM out of the game, and it is there to cover up the fact that the game is just one big GRIND for exp, because there is no 'real' content held inside them.
IF only they had produced SGW in the right way. it had so many possiblilities.
there are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.
I believe isntancing in an MMO is not inherenetly bad but depends on the MMO and what it is like, what type of MMO it is.
WoW for example is an MMO that can succesfully incoirporate instancing. I mean, why the hell not, it's not like WoW interaction is of a high degree anyway compared to other games in the genre. Nor is the market player driven and this unduly influenced.
But the game I currently play, Eve-Online, would suffer badly from instancing. It's not a game in which pve has a role much larger then resource gathering anyway. And if there's one game in which interaction is essential, and should not be a choice but a requirement, it's this one.
Eve-Online knows no true instancing. There is however a form of semi-instancing in it. Agent missions (pve encounters assigned by an NPC to you on your request), oftenly take place at locations so remote that other players aren't able to easily go into the 'dungeon' that was spawned specifically for you. Yet, the possibility is always there that someone will, and comes to steal your loot or destroy your ship. Only by choice can you share these semi-instances with others, the default is that acess requires effort, and since the location changes every time a new dungeon is spawned for you, not many take the trouble of finding yours.
Now, as to why I dont like true instances. True instances take away risk in games that have an pvp element. In those games in that subgenre I like, that option of 100% safety should simply not exist. Just like killing someone requires effort, so should not getitng killed. Basic game balance when it comes to these games imo.
Another subgenre that doesn't have much place for true instancing is MMO's with purely player driven markets. These would imo be too open to their markets being affected negatively by even a small imbalance in some instances. Overfarming of instances would mean oversupply of the loot found there. That could aversely affect any players that gets the same resource elsewhere. And it also means that that market is no longer served iwth an element of competition.
Competitive games with player driven markets and an element of pvp in them therefore, especially those in which interaction is essential, are not served by true instancing in any way. Competition for resources of all kinds, risk of pvp encounters and neccesity to interact are invariably detracted from by instancing.
Since I play Eve-Online, which answers all of the characteristics named above, I am of the opinion instancing is bad for my gameplay. I probably would not consider playing a game that has instancing in it at all, since that game could not answer to the characteristics I named, and therefore would not appeal to me.
Of course, It's a matter of taste altogether. I can imagine players with a different taste and a yearning for pve that is at the core of a game in which player-driven markets are not essential, and competition is very limited, would be served well by instancing.
Can we discuss something that's not simply a matter of taste next time please guys ? I mean, the last subject was very similar in that respect. You''re simply taking about those matters that are recognised to be key elements that divide the MMO genre into it's subgenres.
Can we talk about say, RMT, the role of time in MMO's as a competition-spoiler, or maybe just something as mundane as how important it is to an MMO to allow it's players to play a part in shaping it's world ? Not very shocking no, but at least it can lead to insightfull questions that aren't just answered with differences in taste ?
Ok, I can be silent no longer.
Someone almost having an orgasm talking about the beauty of his/her eliteist point of view on how online RPG's should be cookie cutter and follow all the things that make it suck so bad becuase we should all be forced to like it and grow from it becuase its l33t, and its pWNEd! Who the heck are you people? Its a game, it caters to a specific audience, namely the one that likes playing it. I hate almost every MMORPG I have ever played for all the reasons you seem to love it. Chat channels being spammed with 1000's of abbreviations. Quests and dungeons are like cheap used whores, and all you get is sloppy seconds. Nothing is new or exciting. No story! Who cares about story! Just goto the camp points and kill respawning monsters to power level so you can run into the people and have them admire how special you are. Thats what you consider is crucial to your enjoyment? I am special becuase I can twitch react faster than you! Or I am better than you becuase I can click faster, or my keyboard shortcuts are better layed out than yours? Thats just silly, but if thats what floats your boat, then go for it. I want my online Role Playing Game to actually have role playing in it, and the most important element in role playing is story. Without a good story that involves me, all you have is a mind numbing click fest experience. You don't even need words, just point and click, and then feel special. Why think? Just follow the horde of people wacking away at the other people and start whacking away at something yourself. OOOOHHHH, I feel special now. That whole community thing you were talking about is making sense now, the rest of the game sucks so I have to compensate for the mind numbing fun by showing how uber l33t I am in the chat channel and having my fellow group/guild talk snobishly to the other 'lower' people. I see it now, its the whole class distinction ego trip thing.
Instancing will save me from having to play with people like you. Thank you! There is a GOD!
You can't have a true Role Playing Game unless you use instancing, there is no way around it, some arguments about an NPC being dumb and loosing the same item every 3 seconds is ridiculous.
Maybe you just don't understand, or you have never actually played a "Pen and Paper" game. You should try it! Then you might understand the roots of all RPG's. Before you were whining and pissing about needing a graphics card upgrade people were playing games with math, words, and really good stories. Without instancing, all you have is a mindless action game.
Read my text! Up until now, NO ONE, has even come close to making an online Role Playing Game. Yes they use the word 'RPG' but they are NO 'RPG'. Sure they have some elements of it, but its really an action game. It should be called "
" Massively Multiplayer Online Clicking Camping Pwning Spamming Internet Relay Chat Eliteist Action Game with Elements from a Role Playing Game"
MMOCCPSIRCEAGERPG
So its safe to say that is what you like. Some people like blondes and other prefer black, its all a matter of preference. If you truly understood D&D and why so many people grew up enjoying it, you would understand that D&D was written as an instance itself, as a matter of fact, all PnP RPG's are instance based. So how is it that we have games that called themselves RPG's but were missing the very element that makes an RPG worth playing? If I ever heard my DM say "...And you arrive at the last chamber and you see 45 people standing around a treasure chest (appearently its empty) and you hear people saying "I pWnEd you!" and "MOOOO!" in an almost annoying voice, while others are jumping up and down swinging wildly at walls, people, and nothing! It also appears the Dragon has already been slain. Everyone take a 30 minute break while I respawn this game.". I would kick his sorry butt out and no one would ever play with that DM again. If you want community then goto an IRC porn channel and talk about your feelings.
Instancing in no way limits my ability to interact, the game engine and user interface do.
I will use UO in its "old" days for example, that was befor the world was divided into three different worlds, where one was the Free For All and the rest was more or less protected. The concept behind that origin concept was to give the player the possibility to decide by themselfs what to do.
An example, when i played yesterday on a great free-shard of UO I tried to enter the dungeon Despise. Two PKs showed up and hunted me down infront of the dungeon and killed me. When i showed up as a ghost hoping to get rezzed those two guys said: Sorry brother we have control of the passage to Despise and when u want to pass in u have to pay for passage! I think to myself, ok good point if those are prepared to do so and play that "role" I am fine with it and feel challanged. So the next approache i was more carefull and stealthed through that passage and made it into the dungeon without getting killed. I feel a little victorious cause the game offers to counteract almost any action players do, if u are just clever enough to take advantage of it. And even more important with that is, that i did my duties inside the dungeon always watching my back cause i always had to expect those guys to show up and fight for their "right" to control the passage. This thrill is it that even makes PvE fun cause u always expect the PvP comin in and then u have to fight on two sides which is a real challange.
Another example. In the early days PKs started to slay noobs in the eastern woods. The result was that guilds formed to protect the eastern woods to make it a saver place for noobs again and many great fights between the PK guilds and the "protective" guilds came up. A great fun which ended in many reallife friendships all over europe.
Another guy was roleplaying the protector of the liches (some mobs) in a certain dungeon. If u started to kill those liches that guy showed up, owned u badly and forced u to retreat with a red sash as present and the advise to wear that sash if u want to wander there unharmed as long as u dont touch his protectives the liches.
There are millions of examples such a free world comes up with, which is great for entertainment and always brings up new things cause the world is left to the players and for them to decide what to do and what not. That saves the world from being repetitive and getting boring cause every day there is a new challange comin up u can participate with if u like.
And now back to the point of instances... Those above described things dont happen in games based on instances cause its made almost 100% safe for people to go and "hide" in that instance. I hope that makes the point clear what a big difference instances are doing to a so called virtual world.
And this always leads to the followup discussion that there are two different typs of players playing MMORPGs. Those who like the above described examples and those who dont. I did quit WOW after half a year just because of the fact that there was no REAL interaction between players and no elements of "making a difference" were in the game. I dont mind getting killed by others as long as i can learn from it to make it better next time (I definitly start cursing them and sometimes even get angry but that is the same to a basketball player that gets slamdunked into his face). Without that there is no real challenge for me in an MMO cause killing scripted NPCs is no big thing in my eyes. It is definitly part of the game but not what it makes fun for me in long term. And as a guildmate of mine said in a manifest about MMOs which i will link a bit further down cause it helps explaining my arguments: Playing an MMORPG based on instances is like playing poker without winning or loosing money:
http://www.guildofsun.com/Web/Site/News/Archive/Articles/A+SUN+Manifesto
P.S: And to make that clear; i dont blame or hate players that dont like the competitive style: Its everyone himself to make this choice. All i can say about this is that those people miss the true fun in an MMORPG in my eyes. But that aswell is a question of perspective. So all i can do is to raise my voice to let developers know that there is a group of people that want the competitive free style of MMOs and not a chain-cuffed zoo :-)
Just want to point out for your post that it is about PvE only. For people that like PvE only and only want PvE "Instances" are a really great thing to avoid all the mentioned problems form EQ1 and 2 and such games. But those are almost pure PvE concepts and have nothing to do with the question about "Isntances" in a world where u want to see PvP.
And to use WOW as an example; In this game u can chose to play on a PvP or PvE realm. The sad thing is that it doesnt make a difference cause even the PvP realms are just PvE realms. And why is that? Due to "instances".
But well jsut wnated to point out that we have to watch what we are talking about in this thread...PvE wise no doubt about instances; concerning PvP "Instances" do definitly a great damage IMHO.