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kefkah
Member UncommonPosts: 832
Uhmm, anyone else notice that a certain thread is missing? Nigh on 20 pages of indepth dialogue and debate? Page 19 was especially interesting as there was some resolution to the whole "why are angy people still posting to the SWG threads".
Not to be an arse or an upstart but I would like an official explanation.
Comments
Yeah, it was my thread too. Check out what I got in my mailbox:
From: mailer@mmorpg.com
To: dolanious@mmorpg.com
Sent On: 02/07/06 04:28
Subject: MMORPG.COM : You have been issued a warning.
Go Back To Folder List
Dear dolanious,
You have been issued a warning by one of our moderators.
Warning Category: Illegal Activities
Reason: Hacking is an illegal offence, and posting information gathered as a result of an illegal offence is NOT tolerated at MMORPG.com. This is the only warning that you will recieve on this subject. Another offence will result in a permanent ban from this site.
Thank you,
The Staff
MMORPG.COM
Someone tell me how to contact the moderators please... because whenever I try to send a reply to the "mailer@mmorpg.com" address it wont work.
And I don't think SOE sent them a letter or anything..... Someone from here complained and frightened them.
Sorry they did that Dolanious. You had the hottest thread on the site going.
/salute
...How was that hacking? Didn't we argue for most of the thread that it's not hacking?
A** Still Raw From Your Last SWG Subscription? Come join us at RLMMO.com
Yea, I really enjoyed that thread too. It was probably a save your butt deletion. Basically MMORPG.com doesn't want any legal stuff headed their way in any form. Wish I had it saved though, lots of interesting dialogue in that topic.
That's pretty sad that they've deleted it.
You can still find the numbers here: http://www.shadowsinmotion.com/swg-server-population-revealed/
I guess some fanboi couldn't stand having the truth smacked in his face and decided to either report the thread or call in the SOE cavalry.
Well...
The numbers live on elsewhere, so no loss there really, and I wonder why the whole thread had to go since we were discussing a lot of other things than "hacking" techniques. Seems very SOE like to just delete the whole thread when it's possible for a mod to simply delete the offending posts and issue a warning in the thread and/or lock it. I've seen it done here before and believe me, it sends a far better message across than the SOE way of moderating things.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
For the record, I didn't report it
I didn't think it would have a long life though 
You have to look at it from MMORPG.com's side though. If they had left it up, they'd be kissing good bye all communication with SOE and LA. No more interviews, no more previews. The site relies on such features to draw people to visit the site - no visitors, no money. It's all well and good to dislike SOE and SWG, but don't try and bring everyone else down with it
A lock, a warning post or even an entry deletion has been the standard since the day I came here. This was an end of the day decision that required a removal of the thread from the site. Such an action only comes to satisfy a request by an outside party. The thread could have been edited and its other pages remaining but it wasn't. Someone needed to hear back that 1. the entire subject was now gone and 2. its user warned. Those two actions indicate a response to a legal threat.
There were active mods all weekend and I know that for a fact as one came in to stop WWII argument in another section of the forums. Seeing as this thread WAS the most active it is highly doubtful that it was overlooked during the three days it was up. As per many predictions, I am sure the legal team came back from their weekend and started to work with the warnining shots and the PR departments threatened isolation.
Funny part is that I came to this site because I wanted to find an alternative to SOE and its tactics that left my Ranger (my favorite past time and proudest online achievement) without a home. I came here because SOE's forums were heavy handed, biased and wouldn't even try to listen to what I begged for. MMORPG was a spot for independant upstart mmorpg makers and a forum for people who dare say SOE did it wrong and this is what they covered up.
Our discussion of the legality of what was being done is one that should be heard. If not that, our discussion of how SOE keepes hiding the fact that they are indeed losing numbers is one that is news worthy hence the enormous amount of traffic. There were first time posters on that thread. People emerged with significant concepts. The idea that the reason many of us still linger here is because not one MMORPG has stepped up to fill old SWG's shoes is significant to not only the posters but to the companies who aspire to do so.
I like the staff here at MMORPG and I appreciate their efforts. It just kinda knocks the wind out of me that SOE's reach extends to free thought and when its unclear - their will is the answer. I know how this makes me an idealist and perhaps a dreamer but then again, thats what playing a Ranger on another planet is...isn't it? Dreaming.
I am off to go get some coffee and debate with myself and colleagues about the use of posting and debating about MMORPGs. I know of all people that advertising is god of media. though and independence has a place somewhere. Just perhaps not here or anywhere that SOE can email.
And for the record - please issue me a warning as well. I participated in that thread. I pointed out links to more information and if you want to report back to them names of offenders - I want my name on that list. Its Kefkah...with an H. SOE gave me that name at EQ's launch and I assure you they will continue to hear it until they clean up their act or sell their online division to someone who cares. Perhaps not here but somewhere.
While I agree that the information in the post was enlightening it does not surprise me in the least that it was deleted. MMORPG.COM is a website. Their entire revenue stream is based on internet adds. This means it's not a huge profit margin.
If SOE decided to sue them even if it was frivolous it would probably put them out of business. In short: They can't afford to fight a lawsuit over your post, thus it was removed.
I am glad the information was provided. It confirmed many things I already suspected. But I'm not at all surprised that MMORPG.COM took the action that they did.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Why would this surprise you? It's been explained by numerous people why MMORPG.COM had to do this. Or are you offering to privatelly fund MMORPG.COM and it's staff so that they can afford to be liable for any legal ramifications that occurred due to allowing that post to stay?
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Stoneless, yes.
But it DOES prove that if Sony got their panties in a wad enough to force them to delete the post it was TOTALLY ACCURATE. They wouldn't have done it themselves.
The post is safe on http://intrepid.galaxyforums.com ... in the SWG forum. Come join the community.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
r u guys talking about the thread where it showed the server stats and crap like that cuz someone from my old SWG guild told me this......
"They didn't hack , you can get them with packet sniffers , which are easy to use. I ran one after i read this thread to see if it worked. I always asumed the security would filter out most of the info, but I wasnt able toget any population numbers with my attempt, just loggin and ip address's of the servers and such."
so it technically isnt hacking =/ o well.......
***
i just noticed this is my 100th post yay! ***
Yeah.. the server load thread.
Wonder if their basis was the info, or the "hacking tips". Could the warned poster ask for a clarification?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Why would this surprise you? It's been explained by numerous people why MMORPG.COM had to do this. Or are you offering to privatelly fund MMORPG.COM and it's staff so that they can afford to be liable for any legal ramifications that occurred due to allowing that post to stay?
zenstain replied what I would say...
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Absolutely 100% correct: It's not hacking
But SOE could EASILY tie up MMORPG.COM in legal fees that this site couldn't possibly afford long enough to shut them down if they got their panties in a wad.
As to those who say an explanation would be nice? The OP got an email explaining why it was removed. While I agree that calling this "hacking" is a REALLY loose interpretation of how the person who got the information did it the OP himself used the term 'hacking' in his post. Which is probably what set the staff off in a flurry of action. Not to mention the tips on how to go about doing it.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
That's why I asked for a clarification... was their deletion for the instructions on HOW to "hack" it from the server... or the actual data.
If it was because of the "hack tips" then I'd be happy to repost the data.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Yep, I threw like 6 or 7 post in there about the how it's not hacking. I had to debate it with one of you guys
Doesn't suprise me that it got deleted though, I told the OP he should edit "hacking" from the original post. There's just no way SOE was going to let a thread like that lie on the largest independent MMORPG board. What I find absolutlely hysterical is the fact that whoever sent that letter to the OP WOULD HAVE HAD TO KNOW HOW HE GOT THAT INFO. Anyone working on this website should be familiar with packet sniffing. Anyone working with networking at all should. Like I said in an earlier post, if sniffing is hacking then I'm getting paid to do it everyday. The MMORPG staff must have been like "I can't believe I'm warning this guy for packet sniffing".
Here's my take about those numbers.......had they truly been fake, SOE would have laughed it off, made an official post about it in their boards, and changed their protocol. But the sudden mass deletion from all boards with no mention by an SOE employee anywhere? I'm sorry, but that's as good as proof in my book. You don't take such drastic effort to cover up something you could just dissmiss by proving wrong.
MMORPG.COM, I salute you. We all knew it would be deleted, but the exact way it happened gives us the answer we were looking for. I hold nothing against you guys, you let it be the most popular topic on the board since friday or so I think. Play SOE's game for now, but just remember their heavy hand when it comes time for a new review.
The Millenium Lee
(stops "hacking" at some unix code here)
It would be interesting shayde to see if you just posted the data how long it would last. I am sure that SoE sent in the attack dogs on the thread as it does clearly shows something that is counter to the party line.
no talk of "hacking," Hacking for all you that are NOT coders does not always mean breaking into a system or code. If you want to see what i mean go here: http://www.mozilla.org/hacking/, it has nothing to do about what the news and masses think hacking is.
please do not even talk of the "ethics" of "decrypting" the code, which fyi for all of you james bonds out there does NOT me that is was cyphered, it just means that the person reading the raw data converted it from computer speak to english.
Actually, if the objection to the post was the references to hacking, then we could easily post it back and just discuss the numbers. But I'm afraid it's already been talked to death so I don't see any use.
Edit: I just noticed this on the letter they sent to deadenor: " Hacking is an illegal offence, and posting information gathered as a result of an illegal offence is NOT tolerated at MMORPG.com. This is the only warning that you will recieve on this subject. Another offence will result in a permanent ban from this site."
Oh well!!!!!
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
Well, I am going to throw a bone out to you guys to chew on. I am not a lawyer, but I really wish a *real* one would look at this: (all my info was gleamed off of the DOJ Cybercrime site)
Under United States Code Title 18 (Crimes and Criminal Procedure), there are several references to obtaining information electronically without authorization by the computer (network) owner is a crime. Bear in mind that Title 18 is a very old Code, but it continuously gets annotated with new criminal law. Initially the 90's references pertain to gaining unauthorized information from specific government and financial institutions. However, more recent additions actually expands the definition to include crimes against any "facility through which an electronic communication service is provided." (USC 18 Chapter 121 SS 2710) Unauthorized access is defined as, "(1) intentionally accesses without authorization a facility through which an electronic communication service is provided; or (2) intentionally exceeds an authorization to access that facility." These are specifically in reference to stored communication data.
So the bottom line is, there is criminal law that may be applicable in reference to obtaining the server population data if SOE were to insist that that data was considered "protected" or "for authorized users only." Whether or not you want to define it as "hacking" does not matter, the USC 18 does not appear to specifically address the term hacking, much less define it in the code as far as I can tell from my reading.
This industry is so slimy, and so filled with half-truths and spin, we need a forum with the mission of promoting the interests of the genre as a whole. To provide some honesty, transparency, and information unbiased by spin.
Its not good for the genre to allow new subscribers and new devotees of the genre to be mislead, because the providers are interested more in their self-interest, rather than the interest in the growth and legitimacy of the genre as a whole.
This whole affair shows just how far this genre has to go before it can be accepted as a legitimate pursuit. When SOE, one of the top providers, is starting to look as professional as some cheap pyramid scheme, someone has to step in, and set things straight.
So SOE pressured MMORPG.com to pull the numbers. Were they able to provide MMORPG.com with "official" numbers, so we wouldn't have to rely on packet sniffing? If they were not, and only giving out hot air and bluster, then there should be no reason to comply.
Taking MMORPG.com to court would me, in my opinion, the worst thing SOE could do, and the best thing that could ever happen to MMORPG.com. SOE can no longer lie in a court of law, and would have to publish the whole story behind this NGE and their own decisions as a provider. The issue would rock the games industry to its foundation, and get the real mainstream press to do a real investigation into these practices by SOE and others. Perhaps it would even be examined by Congress.
People, independent game groups, and even the big industry who appreciates the objective and credible job of MMORPGs coverege, will see the danger in SOE (who has actually said in so many words in official interviews that it will do whatever it takes to "kick Blizzard's butt"), will support MMORPG.com. Because they understand that SOE's practices hurts the growth and legitimacy of the industry as a whole.
Don't think they won't try this again, MMORPG.com staff. Andy Zaffron from SOE legal has proof that all he needs to do is send you an E-Mail whenever he doesn't like something, and you will capitualte.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE