You are accusing F2P of using unique concepts, which are similar to gambling. I have just shown you that those same concepts were ACTUALLY found to be gambling in a P2P game... and the evidence that they are present in almost all online games, regardless of business model.
Please explain how this behavior is exploitive for one model, but not exploitive for another. Also explain why governments have felt it necessary to take action for what you are calling non exploitive... but not take action for what you are calling exploitive.
I think people used vindictus as an example earlier, I haven't played that but I've played my share of so called "F2P" games and sub games. If they both have mechanisms in which you are paying real money for a spin of the wheel (literally for the vinductus example I believe and loot boxs and other things for other examples) than I think it is the same thing despite if you pay a sub or not. I do believe it's slightly more misleading for a game to call itself free to play and lock out certain content based on gambling mechanisms because they call themselves free to play (not trial, or play with restrictions) but only slightly depending on how much content they lock out and the ways in which they try to entice you to spend money on the game. That said peoples expectation is that when they pay a box and sub that they won't have such mechanisms in their games.
In short I see it as equally wrong but I have experienced alot more F2P games doing this than traditional sub based games. Actually I don't believe I've played a traditional sub based game where I have to pay real money for individual rolls of the dice (so to speak) that unlocks unique content.
For some reason my computer keeps refreshing and I keep losing everything that I type, therefore I'm going to keep my points/opinions straightforward:
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
Therefore, I think that maybe gamer's aren't stepping up and saying anything is because, they too, don't see this as a gambling issue?
And I'll use Vindicates as an example since that is being thrown around. For this I'll use my gumball analogy:
Now, almost everyone here can admit that gumball machines are not a form of gambling. You put in money and you have a 100% chance to get a gumball. But let's say you really want one of the pink gumballs instead and don't want to settle for the blue gumball the machine gave you. Therefore, you pour in all of your money until you get that pink gumball. Is it the gumball machine owner's fault that you spent all of your money? No, that gumball machine owner is trying to make a buck or two to cover the cost of the gumball machine and to make a little profit.
2: And I don't understand why people loath about F2P games asking for money. Blizzard (like other P2P MMOs) soaked in over 960 million dollars before they released a drop of additional content, and then they charged $50 for the expansion on top of that. So, there are a lot of players that had to pay $170 if they wanted to keep playing their game AND wanted the additional content afterwards, not to mention, will have to keep paying $15 dollars a month to play the $50 content they purchased. Why isn't the gaming community holding Blizzard accountable for that? That isn't nickel and diming, that is straight robbery.
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries by none other than their own greed.
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries.
You are linking a very poorly edited third party article about a proposed bill (not approved, but proposed) in a third world country and saying it may be banned in many countries? Am I suppose to take this serious?
Not to mention, their citation for this information is a blog post by someone named "Mary-Ann"
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
I'm gonna be taking off to watch the new Lord of the Rings movie, so that will give you some time to Google your answer I suppose, sigh.
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries.
You are linking a very poorly edited third party article about a proposed bill (not approved, but proposed) in a third world country and saying it may be banned in many countries? Am I suppose to take this serious?
Not to mention, their citation for this information is a blog post by someone named "Mary-Ann"
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
I'm gonna be taking off to watch the new Lord of the Rings movie, so that will give you some time to Google your answer I suppose, sigh.
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
When has the US government ever punished a company...full stop? Every politician in the US is lobbied by corporations.
The US has no policy against online gambling either, the states that claim to have them, never seem to enforce it. It's illegal in many other countries, you end up in jail if you do, in the US the casino pays off the politican and he pretends his nose bleeds.
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
When has the US government ever punished a company...full stop? Every politician in the US is lobbied by corporations.
The US has no policy against online gambling either, the states that claim to have them, never seem to enforce it. It's illegal in many other countries, you end up in jail if you do, in the US the casino pays off the politican and he pretends his nose bleeds.
t
I think you really don't think your in tune with thw world as you think.
Your proposed bill is not even a law and it doesn't even prove a single assertion that you make.
Also, some state governments have passed LAWS about internet gambling and none of them discuss MMOs. Even the Federal regulations omit them. To say they arent being enforced is both false and boderline trolling.
And to backup my claim. WA State has made gambling online illegal. ..period. You cant login onto any gambli g sitr in WA cause all of the ISP block the sites...yet MMOs dont fall in that category. Here is actual proof from the states gambling commission. http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/publications/brochures/5-165-internet-gambling-brochure.pdf
Until you can give proof using a legitimate study or from an actual government sources (since your mentioning multiple countries) then I will have to just not take anything you say with merit
I don't get why people automatically think games should be 'fair' just because they are F2P. You get what you pay for. You don't HAVE to pay for anything, but it doesn't mean the company can't give people who are willing to pay a higher advantage verses those who do not. The main thing I have against F2P games are having the option to subscribe and still needing to buy stuff from the cash shop. It makes 0 sense to me However, that's my own opinion and I usually do not sub to any f2p games. The only games I'll sometimes subscribe to are WoW and FFXIV. WoW because....its wow so regardless of what people think, that game is never going completely f2p. FFXIV because SE is too stubborn/greedy/cheap to make that game or XI go f2p. Those two aside, all other games that aren't f2p already (mainly Wildstar/TESO) will only be a matter of time before they go B2P at least. Again, that's my opinion but F2P companies can do whatever they want, they are letting people "try" the game for free.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
You have completely made Yourself 100% hypocritical...
You have just now admitted there is a paywall in F2P games, while before you were arguing that if it's free, there is no reason to ever have to pay, to play. Now... you are saying "yes there is" for further content to keep playing the game, you need to pay.
The point here is, that games should be titled: Free to Try...
Lastly, within a few short years, it will be a requirement to be 18 year or older to play any Online game that has a CC tied to it. So the unscrupulous Free to Play business model will dwindle rather quickly.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
You have completely made Yourself 100% hypocritical...
You have just now admitted there is a paywall in F2P games, while before you were arguing that if it's free, there is no reason to ever have to pay, to play. Now... you are saying "yes there is" for further content to keep playing the game, you need to pay.
The point here is, that games should be titled: Free to Try...
Lastly, within a few short years, it will be a requirement to be 18 year or older to play any Online game that has a CC tied to it. So the unscrupulous Free to Play business model will dwindle rather quickly.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
You have completely made Yourself 100% hypocritical...
You have just now admitted there is a paywall in F2P games, while before you were arguing that if it's free, there is no reason to ever have to pay, to play. Now... you are saying "yes there is" for further content to keep playing the game, you need to pay.
The point here is, that games should be titled: Free to Try...
Lastly, within a few short years, it will be a requirement to be 18 year or older to play any Online game that has a CC tied to it. So the unscrupulous Free to Play business model will dwindle rather quickly.
Good work detective!I agree with you.!
As much as I disagree with Nari, he's always admitted that F2P games have had pay-walls. That's never been his issue. In fact it's one of the reasons I've argued with him in the past. He's always contended that once he hit the pay-wall, he'd simply move on to the next since there is always a "next" he's never out of free games to play. So in that sense, he never hits a pay-wall. He's not really being hypocritical, he's just playing MMOs differently than the way most people who play do. I don't like game hopping every 10 levels, Nari, doens't seem to mind it.
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries.
You are linking a very poorly edited third party article about a proposed bill (not approved, but proposed) in a third world country and saying it may be banned in many countries? Am I suppose to take this serious?
Not to mention, their citation for this information is a blog post by someone named "Mary-Ann"
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
I'm gonna be taking off to watch the new Lord of the Rings movie, so that will give you some time to Google your answer I suppose, sigh.
When you read the law, and the comments made by the lawmakers you will find that there was never any issue with F2P in relation to the law. In fact, they clearly stated that this law was based on similar laws from other countries (with the same wording) and that there wasn't anything new here. This was clearly a case of media sensationalism.
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries.
You are linking a very poorly edited third party article about a proposed bill (not approved, but proposed) in a third world country and saying it may be banned in many countries? Am I suppose to take this serious?
Not to mention, their citation for this information is a blog post by someone named "Mary-Ann"
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
I'm gonna be taking off to watch the new Lord of the Rings movie, so that will give you some time to Google your answer I suppose, sigh.
When you read the law, and the comments made by the lawmakers you will find that there was never any issue with F2P in relation to the law. In fact, they clearly stated that this law was based on similar laws from other countries (with the same wording) and that there wasn't anything new here. This was clearly a case of media sensationalism.
The only reason Govt. hasn't stuck their fingers into online F2P "gambling" is because there is no money in it for them. If there was money in it for them, I assure you, online gaming would have fallen under gambling laws a long time ago.
What the Govt. declares, has little to do with the gambling behavior players exhibit in these games.
LoL at the third world comment. Have you any idea what the standard of living is in Singapore. Coming from Malaysia myself I find that quite hilarious.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
You have completely made Yourself 100% hypocritical...
You have just now admitted there is a paywall in F2P games, while before you were arguing that if it's free, there is no reason to ever have to pay, to play. Now... you are saying "yes there is" for further content to keep playing the game, you need to pay.
The point here is, that games should be titled: Free to Try...
Lastly, within a few short years, it will be a requirement to be 18 year or older to play any Online game that has a CC tied to it. So the unscrupulous Free to Play business model will dwindle rather quickly.
Good work detective!I agree with you.!
As much as I disagree with Nari, he's always admitted that F2P games have had pay-walls. That's never been his issue. In fact it's one of the reasons I've argued with him in the past. He's always contended that once he hit the pay-wall, he'd simply move on to the next since there is always a "next" he's never out of free games to play. So in that sense, he never hits a pay-wall. He's not really being hypocritical, he's just playing MMOs differently than the way most people who play do. I don't like game hopping every 10 levels, Nari, doens't seem to mind it.
Honestly.. why defend his track record..?
When you constantly suggest one thing, and then personally do another... it is hypocritical.
Narius tells us how he plays his games, then suggest that everyone else's complaints are not valid, because he is having fun with his play style inside Free Games. Often times, (for giggles) He suggests that Free To Play games give your everything a subscription model does & there is no hindrances to content... yet immediately opts out of any game that poses a hindrance. Then claims he has fun in all the F2P games...
Yeah, until he is not having fun and quits...
You can pull up his posts and go back a year and read how much he has fought for the use of free... yet never plays those game to the fullest, because he cops out at pay walls. So essentially he doesn't play these games, he tries them for a few months and discards them. But still wants you to believe his nonsense.
Lastly, I can tell you now, that Narius is linked to the MMo industry and is possibly a consultant. He uses this site to further his agenda/career/income.
I also work in the industry and am privy to inside demographics, I have seen the actual numbers behind a certain Developer's all-in-one-pass & can tell you Free to Play is not the holy grail for the MMORPG industry. And that cross-platform games will be the only ones able to support quality F2P. Because fishing for whales is getting harder & harder. They have found that whales only bite once or twice and they are gone. They do not move on to other games with an open wallet.
Dolphin netting is the new term... but even if you cast a big enough net, it is just safer and better to become closed environment and charge a subscription. (Steady income vs random nettings = business model)
Understand, 18 million WoW refugees are getting older and have careers and disposable incomes now. The industry has taken notice to start ups/kickstarters that have people tossing them hundreds for a game they can't even play yet. That is all the proof any business man needs, to be sold on the viability of higher cost MMO on the way.
IE: If WoW cost $13/month, then chances are most of those players expect to pay more for their next game, they find worthy of playing for 5 years. What WoW player wouldn't pay $7 more per month for the next WoW?
And do you think those people who won't pay $20/month, even matter to future developers..? Only the ones still chasing whales..
Within 5 years, all the premium titles, will have a premium subscription associated with them. Free is not sustainable in the PC marketplace. Handheld/mobile/console apps is another story all together.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Stizzled
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
There are a lot of them. They're the same people who shout about beta tests being freely accessible for paid games when they have no intention of actually buying it whether or not they like it and just want something new and free to play with for a while.
In the end, you need to go into a F2P game with the expectation that there will come a point at which you need to make that cost vs value decision.
If only more people would realize this. It amazes me that there are still people out there that think they can play a game fully without spending a dime. It amazes me further that those same people will get so angry at a F2P game when if finally asks for that dime, especially if that same person would gladly pay upfront for a P2P MMO just to see if they'll even like the game.
Who think like that?
May be people just like playing part of some games for free, and move on when they hit a pay wall.
You have completely made Yourself 100% hypocritical...
You have just now admitted there is a paywall in F2P games, while before you were arguing that if it's free, there is no reason to ever have to pay, to play. Now... you are saying "yes there is" for further content to keep playing the game, you need to pay.
The point here is, that games should be titled: Free to Try...
Lastly, within a few short years, it will be a requirement to be 18 year or older to play any Online game that has a CC tied to it. So the unscrupulous Free to Play business model will dwindle rather quickly.
Good work detective!I agree with you.!
As much as I disagree with Nari, he's always admitted that F2P games have had pay-walls. That's never been his issue. In fact it's one of the reasons I've argued with him in the past. He's always contended that once he hit the pay-wall, he'd simply move on to the next since there is always a "next" he's never out of free games to play. So in that sense, he never hits a pay-wall. He's not really being hypocritical, he's just playing MMOs differently than the way most people who play do. I don't like game hopping every 10 levels, Nari, doens't seem to mind it.
To be honest, I did put in some money in marvel heroes because i got some steam credits, and I used it on MH. However, in general, that is correct ... i play something else when i hit a pay wall. And that is not just MMOs. I also do the same with iOS puzzle games that I play while waiting in line for groceries.
There are so many of these free games out there (and also the SP games I bought on sales in my steam account) that I am never running out of fun games to play.
and i love game hopping every 20 minutes .. i got more varied gaming experiences.
the problem is not "scamming" games, its players that are idiotic enough to think they get anything for free without consequences. we created this system. and the fittest survive.
So I feel people get scammed in F2P. F2P MMO use lots of ways to entice people to spend money in very dishonest ways.
At the start of the game, the items are usually not that powerful.
After a few weeks they add more and more powerful items, to the point that if you don't pay money, you fall behind your friends, or have difficulty doing the content, and to have fun in the game, you are required to give the company money.
That is a scam. It is a form of nickel and diming that Apple got into legal trouble with and they had to pay back the money for nickel and diming people with cash shop games.
Why are not more GAMERS speaking up AGAINST this. This is not honest towards players, it's a form of casino play, companies are taking advantage of players and using addictive games to nickel and dime money from them.
There is a reason online casino play is illegal in many nations. It is a dishonest way to rip people from their money through addiction. MMO are not different.
Join me in denouncing this sort of practice so the developers are forced to treat players correctly!
Final Fantasy XIV has shown that you do not need to scam players to make an MMO.
It is time players demand this nickel and diming scheme to stop, just like people demanded from Apple's app store.
I feel like I'm scammed when I am forced to pay for a subscription. Can't stop playing for a few days because I fall to far behind and am no longer getting my bang for my buck. Never does my subscription dollars get monetized in the way I see fit, instead it gets put towards the vocal MINORITY who gets 99% of the development resources. Things I don't care about. And finally I feel scammed because my progression and journey feel artificially slowed to a crawl forcing me to choose what to loot because my inventory is the size of a field mouse or my appearance makes me look like a pauper in a Charles Dickens classic for 90% of my game time because only cool looking items drop at end game. Subscription gaming is 10,000 percent more a scam then F2P ever will.
Here's a novel concept. F2P doesn't equate Free if you want to see the entire game or have the best gear. If you treat a F2P like a subscription and put forth a few hundred dollars then the game opens up FROM THE BEGINING. Whereas you could pay for a subscription, spend the same amount of money over the lifetime of the game, and spend 90% of your game time artificially limited due to developmental constraints placed upon you to keep you slowed down. I'd much remove my shackles of subscription bondage and have 100% of my game time supported and fun from the get go.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
the problem is not "scamming" games, its players that are idiotic enough to think they get anything for free without consequences. we created this system. and the fittest survive.
hmm ... you can get a part of f2p games for free without consequences.
Don't believe me, go to marvel heroes, and play through all the story content with your first hero. Tell me if that is not free.
I also work in the industry and am privy to inside demographics, I have seen the actual numbers behind a certain Developer's all-in-one-pass & can tell you Free to Play is not the holy grail for the MMORPG industry. And that cross-platform games will be the only ones able to support quality F2P. Because fishing for whales is getting harder & harder. They have found that whales only bite once or twice and they are gone. They do not move on to other games with an open wallet.
Dolphin netting is the new term... but even if you cast a big enough net, it is just safer and better to become closed environment and charge a subscription. (Steady income vs random nettings = business model)
Understand, 18 million WoW refugees are getting older and have careers and disposable incomes now. The industry has taken notice to start ups/kickstarters that have people tossing them hundreds for a game they can't even play yet. That is all the proof any business man needs, to be sold on the viability of higher cost MMO on the way.
IE: If WoW cost $13/month, then chances are most of those players expect to pay more for their next game, they find worthy of playing for 5 years. What WoW player wouldn't pay $7 more per month for the next WoW?
And do you think those people who won't pay $20/month, even matter to future developers..? Only the ones still chasing whales..
Within 5 years, all the premium titles, will have a premium subscription associated with them. Free is not sustainable in the PC marketplace. Handheld/mobile/console apps is another story all together.
I am also in the industry... and disagree with your conclusion. There are different approaches to F2P, which make money from different customer bases. The eastern model is based on a broad playerbase, who pays very little individually (with some whales). The western model is based on a narrow playerbase, who pays more individually (with some whales). In the east, it is common to make less than a dollar (per month), whereas in the west it is common to make over ten dollars (per month). This is most commonly done through a subscription.
The approach that SOE is taking is to increase the amount of quality offerings, and to bundle them under one monthly sub. This will allow for some float between products, but no real loss of revenue, as long as they can keep the customer within their product base. They are also using crowdsourcing methods to increase the amount of content being generated, in an effort to avoid content depletion (and customer attrition).
You can see a similar approach from Nexon, and Perfect World. The consolidation of content under a few publishers allows for the offering of multiple products to the same customer, in an effort to maintain long term customer loyalty. The building of brands around F2P entertainment products is very similar to the creation of the major TV networks in the early 60's.
The 'interesting' part of all of this is that none of these companies are (now) chasing the WoW success story. These companies have all made the transition to the post WoW era, and are building sustainable gaming networks that are not reliant on a single game, or a breakout hit.
In the next 5 years you will see the steady growth of F2P networks, with sales offerings designed to keep customers within their network. There is no reason to move away from F2P (as it provides clear cost benefits), and in fact you will see it expand from PC to Consoles. Mobile will have a bit of backlash/re-adjustment as the market matures, then it will become more like the PC market (which has already gone through this).
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by lathaanthe problem is not "scamming" games, its players that are idiotic enough to think they get anything for free without consequences. we created this system. and the fittest survive.
hmm ... you can get a part of f2p games for free without consequences.
Don't believe me, go to marvel heroes, and play through all the story content with your first hero. Tell me if that is not free.
see - thats exactly what im talking about. you really think you get something for free in this world without some reaction. do you never ask yourself why anyone would give you even 1 second of a game for free? a hint: you stop thinking about consequences at the edge of your tiny horizon
So, spending money to get tickets in a game, which are then used to purchase a spin on a wheel (or lockbox) to win something "is" gambling.
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
Spending money on a pack of cards (Magic the Gathering) in a game store to "win" something is ... not?
Do you always get something? Yes
Is it usable in the game? Yes
is it always "worth" what you paid for it? No
You can talk semantics all day. With real life Magic cards I would argue that there is at least some threshold that keeps you from going overboard. I see people buy an entire booster box (is that about 40 packs?) but rarely go over.
Hearthstone has introduced a whole new dimension of this phenomenon and I would now classify it as a very dangerous trend.
These are just 2 Youtubers who open 300 packs in a row. That comes out to $350 spent on virtual cards within one hour. Is this a sustainable and healthy behavior?
Umm .. my local card shop was forced to implement a 2 booster box rule for MTG on new sets cause people will buy 4+ boxes each easy. I know Yugioh and CFV players that buy 4 boxes day one on new sets. Lastly, Boogie2988 clearly stated that people donated him the money for those packs in hearthstone. Hardcore players with money will always go overboard. No matter what medium they use.
Comments
I think people used vindictus as an example earlier, I haven't played that but I've played my share of so called "F2P" games and sub games. If they both have mechanisms in which you are paying real money for a spin of the wheel (literally for the vinductus example I believe and loot boxs and other things for other examples) than I think it is the same thing despite if you pay a sub or not. I do believe it's slightly more misleading for a game to call itself free to play and lock out certain content based on gambling mechanisms because they call themselves free to play (not trial, or play with restrictions) but only slightly depending on how much content they lock out and the ways in which they try to entice you to spend money on the game. That said peoples expectation is that when they pay a box and sub that they won't have such mechanisms in their games.
In short I see it as equally wrong but I have experienced alot more F2P games doing this than traditional sub based games. Actually I don't believe I've played a traditional sub based game where I have to pay real money for individual rolls of the dice (so to speak) that unlocks unique content.
For some reason my computer keeps refreshing and I keep losing everything that I type, therefore I'm going to keep my points/opinions straightforward:
1: MMOs don't implement gambling, because state governments would have already stepped in and started regulating it much like they have with internet poker. I think the fact that governments haven't stepped in proves that this isn't gambling. At best, what we are witnessing is an expensive gumball machine simulator.
Therefore, I think that maybe gamer's aren't stepping up and saying anything is because, they too, don't see this as a gambling issue?
And I'll use Vindicates as an example since that is being thrown around. For this I'll use my gumball analogy:
Now, almost everyone here can admit that gumball machines are not a form of gambling. You put in money and you have a 100% chance to get a gumball. But let's say you really want one of the pink gumballs instead and don't want to settle for the blue gumball the machine gave you. Therefore, you pour in all of your money until you get that pink gumball. Is it the gumball machine owner's fault that you spent all of your money? No, that gumball machine owner is trying to make a buck or two to cover the cost of the gumball machine and to make a little profit.
2: And I don't understand why people loath about F2P games asking for money. Blizzard (like other P2P MMOs) soaked in over 960 million dollars before they released a drop of additional content, and then they charged $50 for the expansion on top of that. So, there are a lot of players that had to pay $170 if they wanted to keep playing their game AND wanted the additional content afterwards, not to mention, will have to keep paying $15 dollars a month to play the $50 content they purchased. Why isn't the gaming community holding Blizzard accountable for that? That isn't nickel and diming, that is straight robbery.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/10/06/singapore-gambling-law-may-put-mmo-lockboxes-at-risk/
"A proposed remote gambling bill in Singapore may put MMOs that use lockbox systems, as well as players who purchase lockboxes with real-world money, in danger of being prosecuted or being run out of town."
F2P MMO are incredibly close to being outright banned in many countries by none other than their own greed.
You are linking a very poorly edited third party article about a proposed bill (not approved, but proposed) in a third world country and saying it may be banned in many countries? Am I suppose to take this serious?
Not to mention, their citation for this information is a blog post by someone named "Mary-Ann"
But explain why hasn't US state governments stepped in on creating such bills? Or Federal Governments at that?
I'm gonna be taking off to watch the new Lord of the Rings movie, so that will give you some time to Google your answer I suppose, sigh.
Here is the actual Bill from Singapore government. http://www.parliament.gov.sg/sites/default/files/Remote%20Gambling%20Bill%2023-2014.pdf
Singapore isn't a 3rd world country btw.
When has the US government ever punished a company...full stop? Every politician in the US is lobbied by corporations.
The US has no policy against online gambling either, the states that claim to have them, never seem to enforce it. It's illegal in many other countries, you end up in jail if you do, in the US the casino pays off the politican and he pretends his nose bleeds.
Because those companies are not scamming anyone. You are simply out of your mind.
Do we really need 176 posts about it...?
When has the US government ever punished a company...full stop? Every politician in the US is lobbied by corporations.
The US has no policy against online gambling either, the states that claim to have them, never seem to enforce it. It's illegal in many other countries, you end up in jail if you do, in the US the casino pays off the politican and he pretends his nose bleeds.
t
I think you really don't think your in tune with thw world as you think.Your proposed bill is not even a law and it doesn't even prove a single assertion that you make.
Also, some state governments have passed LAWS about internet gambling and none of them discuss MMOs. Even the Federal regulations omit them. To say they arent being enforced is both false and boderline trolling.
And to backup my claim. WA State has made gambling online illegal. ..period. You cant login onto any gambli g sitr in WA cause all of the ISP block the sites...yet MMOs dont fall in that category. Here is actual proof from the states gambling commission. http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/publications/brochures/5-165-internet-gambling-brochure.pdf
Until you can give proof using a legitimate study or from an actual government sources (since your mentioning multiple countries) then I will have to just not take anything you say with merit
You have completely made Yourself 100% hypocritical...
You have just now admitted there is a paywall in F2P games, while before you were arguing that if it's free, there is no reason to ever have to pay, to play. Now... you are saying "yes there is" for further content to keep playing the game, you need to pay.
The point here is, that games should be titled: Free to Try...
Lastly, within a few short years, it will be a requirement to be 18 year or older to play any Online game that has a CC tied to it. So the unscrupulous Free to Play business model will dwindle rather quickly.
Good work detective!I agree with you.!
mmorpg junkie since 1999
As much as I disagree with Nari, he's always admitted that F2P games have had pay-walls. That's never been his issue. In fact it's one of the reasons I've argued with him in the past. He's always contended that once he hit the pay-wall, he'd simply move on to the next since there is always a "next" he's never out of free games to play. So in that sense, he never hits a pay-wall. He's not really being hypocritical, he's just playing MMOs differently than the way most people who play do. I don't like game hopping every 10 levels, Nari, doens't seem to mind it.
When you read the law, and the comments made by the lawmakers you will find that there was never any issue with F2P in relation to the law. In fact, they clearly stated that this law was based on similar laws from other countries (with the same wording) and that there wasn't anything new here. This was clearly a case of media sensationalism.
The only reason Govt. hasn't stuck their fingers into online F2P "gambling" is because there is no money in it for them. If there was money in it for them, I assure you, online gaming would have fallen under gambling laws a long time ago.
What the Govt. declares, has little to do with the gambling behavior players exhibit in these games.
Honestly.. why defend his track record..?
When you constantly suggest one thing, and then personally do another... it is hypocritical.
Narius tells us how he plays his games, then suggest that everyone else's complaints are not valid, because he is having fun with his play style inside Free Games. Often times, (for giggles) He suggests that Free To Play games give your everything a subscription model does & there is no hindrances to content... yet immediately opts out of any game that poses a hindrance. Then claims he has fun in all the F2P games...
Yeah, until he is not having fun and quits...
You can pull up his posts and go back a year and read how much he has fought for the use of free... yet never plays those game to the fullest, because he cops out at pay walls. So essentially he doesn't play these games, he tries them for a few months and discards them. But still wants you to believe his nonsense.
Lastly, I can tell you now, that Narius is linked to the MMo industry and is possibly a consultant. He uses this site to further his agenda/career/income.
I also work in the industry and am privy to inside demographics, I have seen the actual numbers behind a certain Developer's all-in-one-pass & can tell you Free to Play is not the holy grail for the MMORPG industry. And that cross-platform games will be the only ones able to support quality F2P. Because fishing for whales is getting harder & harder. They have found that whales only bite once or twice and they are gone. They do not move on to other games with an open wallet.
Dolphin netting is the new term... but even if you cast a big enough net, it is just safer and better to become closed environment and charge a subscription. (Steady income vs random nettings = business model)
Understand, 18 million WoW refugees are getting older and have careers and disposable incomes now. The industry has taken notice to start ups/kickstarters that have people tossing them hundreds for a game they can't even play yet. That is all the proof any business man needs, to be sold on the viability of higher cost MMO on the way.
IE: If WoW cost $13/month, then chances are most of those players expect to pay more for their next game, they find worthy of playing for 5 years. What WoW player wouldn't pay $7 more per month for the next WoW?
And do you think those people who won't pay $20/month, even matter to future developers..? Only the ones still chasing whales..
Within 5 years, all the premium titles, will have a premium subscription associated with them. Free is not sustainable in the PC marketplace. Handheld/mobile/console apps is another story all together.
There are a lot of them. They're the same people who shout about beta tests being freely accessible for paid games when they have no intention of actually buying it whether or not they like it and just want something new and free to play with for a while.
To be honest, I did put in some money in marvel heroes because i got some steam credits, and I used it on MH. However, in general, that is correct ... i play something else when i hit a pay wall. And that is not just MMOs. I also do the same with iOS puzzle games that I play while waiting in line for groceries.
There are so many of these free games out there (and also the SP games I bought on sales in my steam account) that I am never running out of fun games to play.
and i love game hopping every 20 minutes .. i got more varied gaming experiences.
the problem is not "scamming" games, its players that are idiotic enough to think they get anything for free without consequences. we created this system. and the fittest survive.
I feel like I'm scammed when I am forced to pay for a subscription. Can't stop playing for a few days because I fall to far behind and am no longer getting my bang for my buck. Never does my subscription dollars get monetized in the way I see fit, instead it gets put towards the vocal MINORITY who gets 99% of the development resources. Things I don't care about. And finally I feel scammed because my progression and journey feel artificially slowed to a crawl forcing me to choose what to loot because my inventory is the size of a field mouse or my appearance makes me look like a pauper in a Charles Dickens classic for 90% of my game time because only cool looking items drop at end game. Subscription gaming is 10,000 percent more a scam then F2P ever will.
Here's a novel concept. F2P doesn't equate Free if you want to see the entire game or have the best gear. If you treat a F2P like a subscription and put forth a few hundred dollars then the game opens up FROM THE BEGINING. Whereas you could pay for a subscription, spend the same amount of money over the lifetime of the game, and spend 90% of your game time artificially limited due to developmental constraints placed upon you to keep you slowed down. I'd much remove my shackles of subscription bondage and have 100% of my game time supported and fun from the get go.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
hmm ... you can get a part of f2p games for free without consequences.
Don't believe me, go to marvel heroes, and play through all the story content with your first hero. Tell me if that is not free.
I am also in the industry... and disagree with your conclusion. There are different approaches to F2P, which make money from different customer bases. The eastern model is based on a broad playerbase, who pays very little individually (with some whales). The western model is based on a narrow playerbase, who pays more individually (with some whales). In the east, it is common to make less than a dollar (per month), whereas in the west it is common to make over ten dollars (per month). This is most commonly done through a subscription.
The approach that SOE is taking is to increase the amount of quality offerings, and to bundle them under one monthly sub. This will allow for some float between products, but no real loss of revenue, as long as they can keep the customer within their product base. They are also using crowdsourcing methods to increase the amount of content being generated, in an effort to avoid content depletion (and customer attrition).
You can see a similar approach from Nexon, and Perfect World. The consolidation of content under a few publishers allows for the offering of multiple products to the same customer, in an effort to maintain long term customer loyalty. The building of brands around F2P entertainment products is very similar to the creation of the major TV networks in the early 60's.
The 'interesting' part of all of this is that none of these companies are (now) chasing the WoW success story. These companies have all made the transition to the post WoW era, and are building sustainable gaming networks that are not reliant on a single game, or a breakout hit.
In the next 5 years you will see the steady growth of F2P networks, with sales offerings designed to keep customers within their network. There is no reason to move away from F2P (as it provides clear cost benefits), and in fact you will see it expand from PC to Consoles. Mobile will have a bit of backlash/re-adjustment as the market matures, then it will become more like the PC market (which has already gone through this).
Don't believe me, go to marvel heroes, and play through all the story content with your first hero. Tell me if that is not free.
see - thats exactly what im talking about. you really think you get something for free in this world without some reaction. do you never ask yourself why anyone would give you even 1 second of a game for free? a hint: you stop thinking about consequences at the edge of your tiny horizon
Umm .. my local card shop was forced to implement a 2 booster box rule for MTG on new sets cause people will buy 4+ boxes each easy. I know Yugioh and CFV players that buy 4 boxes day one on new sets. Lastly, Boogie2988 clearly stated that people donated him the money for those packs in hearthstone. Hardcore players with money will always go overboard. No matter what medium they use.