Remember that topic where ESO was supposed to break 10 million barrier by december because well it is ES? lol. They would be lucky if they can stay at 500K. Shows you that IP can help you only so much if the final product is mediocre.
Take WoW out of the equation and 500k is amazing retention given what other games have.
As far as what Jacxolope says about killing npc's, it's just not necessary. He indicates "even in wow you can kill npc's"
To what end? To have them respawn again in a bit? That's a silly mechanic.
Having said that, the new justice system will allow people to kill npc's. Of course they will respawn but that will fuel pvp between outlaws and those who uphold the law.
So that's actually a decent use for that mechanic.
For a an IP like ES? no sorry. Lets agree to disagree here but 500K which is my guess by the way (could be less) since Zenimax never released official numbers is quite poor.
All i know is that no company ever shy away from flaunting numbers when they got it. It is a good PR. Which makes me wonder why Zenimax is so hesitant to make an official annoucement about sub numbers.
But what's that based on?
Just because the single player games sold millions doens't mean that those same people are equally jazzed about "Elder Scrolls the mmo".
Co-Op skyrim? Maybe more, who knows.
This is where the "silly to compare single player to multi-player" discussion is apt.
With every popular IP there is certain fan following which gives games a certain edge. Regardless of whether it is MMO or CO OP, with a name like ES it should have sold like hot cakes and should have more impressive numbers to flaunt. It is ES after all and not your average run of the mill unknown brand.
Remember that topic where ESO was supposed to break 10 million barrier by december because well it is ES? lol. They would be lucky if they can stay at 500K. Shows you that IP can help you only so much if the final product is mediocre.
Take WoW out of the equation and 500k is amazing retention given what other games have.
As far as what Jacxolope says about killing npc's, it's just not necessary. He indicates "even in wow you can kill npc's"
To what end? To have them respawn again in a bit? That's a silly mechanic.
Having said that, the new justice system will allow people to kill npc's. Of course they will respawn but that will fuel pvp between outlaws and those who uphold the law.
So that's actually a decent use for that mechanic.
For a an IP like ES? no sorry. Lets agree to disagree here but 500K which is my guess by the way (could be less) since Zenimax never released official numbers is quite poor.
All i know is that no company ever shy away from flaunting numbers when they got it. It is a good PR. Which makes me wonder why Zenimax is so hesitant to make an official annoucement about sub numbers.
But what's that based on?
Just because the single player games sold millions doens't mean that those same people are equally jazzed about "Elder Scrolls the mmo".
Co-Op skyrim? Maybe more, who knows.
This is where the "silly to compare single player to multi-player" discussion is apt.
With every popular IP there is certain fan following which gives games a certain edge. Regardless of whether it is MMO or CO OP, with a name like ES it should have sold like hot cakes and should have more impressive numbers to flaunt. It is ES after all and not your average run of the mill unknown brand.
I agree- Totally.
As much as I hate the phrase 'WOW Killer"and think its overused- ESO COULD have done it. Obviously thats my opinion but I truely think had they made a sandpark type game (mixing elements of sandbox/theme parks) they would have eventually overshadowed wow as people are looking for a long term mmothats newer than WOW and TES is prettywell universally known and loved.
With every popular IP there is certain fan following which gives games a certain edge. Regardless of whether it is MMO or CO OP, with a name like ES it should have sold like hot cakes and should have more impressive numbers to flaunt. It is ES after all and not your average run of the mill unknown brand.
But you give no evidence other than "because it has to be so".
So an elderscrolls sideshooter would go like gangbusters? millions upon millions?
Or maybe elderscrolls players are into elderscrolls not only for the lore but for how they play?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust) Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe. I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level. A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done. That's a major boon for role playing.
Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.
I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.
Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
With every popular IP there is certain fan following which gives games a certain edge. Regardless of whether it is MMO or CO OP, with a name like ES it should have sold like hot cakes and should have more impressive numbers to flaunt. It is ES after all and not your average run of the mill unknown brand.
But you give no evidence other than "because it has to be so".
So an elderscrolls sideshooter would go like gangbusters? millions upon millions?
Or maybe elderscrolls players are into elderscrolls not only for the lore but for how they play?
Don't forget that the most vocal ES crowd on the internet by far are the modders and fans of mods who enjoy changing Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim in ways that no MMO version would ever allow because of the obvious hacking implications.
I would guess that a huge portion of other Skyrim customers have never made a post in any forum about Skyrim.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Bit confuzzled since questing in ESO is certainly not linear and are well written and acted, and you certainly don't play for stats or gear until you are hundreds of hours into the game (on the assumption you are not a locust) Maybe you should look again, since it has pretty much evolved to be exactly what you describe. I will give you a concrete example, I was wandering around in a zone at a higher level than me to gather and I managed to complete a quest that was aimed at a higher level. A Couple weeks later I arrived at the town near to the quest giver and the town NPC's were talking about what I had done. That's a major boon for role playing.
Agree with the others though they were deliberately designed around the stat/power gain model.
I know what he means. he is looking for the "head and and see a door in a hillside and have an adventure" experience.
Some people don't play the elder scrolls games like this, they just play the quests. However, those who spend hours, days, months and yes, years, explore, adopt characterization and lose themselves in the world.
So basically he wants a different checklist.
I think it's not about that specific word but more about:
I used to just play an MMO to be in the world, but now people even see the world as getting in the way and don't even want it any more
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
With every popular IP there is certain fan following which gives games a certain edge. Regardless of whether it is MMO or CO OP, with a name like ES it should have sold like hot cakes and should have more impressive numbers to flaunt. It is ES after all and not your average run of the mill unknown brand.
But you give no evidence other than "because it has to be so".
So an elderscrolls sideshooter would go like gangbusters? millions upon millions?
Or maybe elderscrolls players are into elderscrolls not only for the lore but for how they play?
Even if it has to be a mainstream themepark, why in gods name does it have to be like some kind of DAOC clone with even less world pvp than WOW, that being none and totally close of the areas from other factions? Wouldn't a PVPVE system more like AION with each race being a faction been more in line with Elder Scrolls lore? Seriously why did it have to be more like GW2, the answer is the market was testing out that particular model. 38 studios, GW2 and ESO were all in development at about the same time, most with some hybrid DAOC rvr with similar combat models. Even mop kept its expansion in line with what was coming. They were not trying to ever make an online Elder scrolls game, they were making DAOC 2.0 and seeing if they could strike gold because the suits were in charge. If they had made a more Elder scrolls friendly themepark this wouldnt be an issue. But I loved the Elder Scrolls games and absolutely hated DAOC and GW2 did it not ever pass their minds to product test on actual Elder Scrolls fans.
With every popular IP there is certain fan following which gives games a certain edge. Regardless of whether it is MMO or CO OP, with a name like ES it should have sold like hot cakes and should have more impressive numbers to flaunt. It is ES after all and not your average run of the mill unknown brand.
But you give no evidence other than "because it has to be so".
So an elderscrolls sideshooter would go like gangbusters? millions upon millions?
Or maybe elderscrolls players are into elderscrolls not only for the lore but for how they play?
Even if it has to be a mainstream themepark, why in gods name does it have to be like some kind of DAOC clone with even less world pvp than WOW, that being none and totally close of the areas from other factions? Wouldn't a PVPVE system more like AION with each race being a faction been more in line with Elder Scrolls lore? Seriously why did it have to be more like GW2, the answer is the market was testing out that particular model. 38 studios, GW2 and ESO were all in development at about the same time, most with some hybrid DAOC rvr with similar combat models. Even mop kept its expansion in line with what was coming. They were not trying to ever make an online Elder scrolls game, they were making DAOC 2.0 and seeing if they could strike gold because the suits were in charge. If they had made a more Elder scrolls friendly themepark this wouldnt be an issue. But I loved the Elder Scrolls games and absolutely hated DAOC and GW2 did it not ever pass their minds to product test on actual Elder Scrolls fans.
...have you played it? There is one area like DAoC. The rest of the game is like Elder Scrolls except other people are there and the main story is actually interesting.
Surely the people that enjoy the game just aren't actual elder scrolls fans though : /
It gets pretty annoying to have people - who quite obviously have either barely played the game or haven't at all - spouting their utter misunderstandings of how it works.
If there was actually any good faith involved - you can use mods to suppress quest markers, put in fog of war on the maps, and explore far more immersively than a normal MMO. It's actually *more successful* at that than Skyrim - because there are tons of clever visual clues for true exploring and questing. There are 300 hours of fully voiced quests - about the same (or more) as in any other single player ES game. There are areas the SP games haven't gone to with really cleverly crafted lore (the Khajit religion, for instance) and very atmospheric regions. The delves have been dramatically expanded...
I could go on, but for heavens sake people shouldn't attack games for things that they don't do, and they shouldn't critique them without knowing much of anything about what they are actually like.
Ah the good old days ... when a boat trip took over 5 minutes and waiting for the boat usually took another 5+. When the quests in the game involved running between 6 or 10 npcs with each run taking 5 or 10 minutes. When story based adventures didn't exist and the only thing to do whilst grinding away killing those mobs was watching your xp bar. And running meant running - no mounts and speed buffs were limited. When becoming a master crafter felt like doing a seven year apprenticeship. When you had to carry your own arrows if you were ranged and - when you ran out it was a trip back to the vendor. The good old days before - say - the release of CoH. They just don't make them like they used to. I wonder why?
Ah the good old days ... when a boat trip took over 5 minutes and waiting for the boat usually took another 5+. When the quests in the game involved running between 6 or 10 npcs with each run taking 5 or 10 minutes. When story based adventures didn't exist and the only thing to do whilst grinding away killing those mobs was watching your xp bar. And running meant running - no mounts and speed buffs were limited. When becoming a master crafter felt like doing a seven year apprenticeship. When you had to carry your own arrows if you were ranged and - when you ran out it was a trip back to the vendor. The good old days before - say - the release of CoH. They just don't make them like they used to. I wonder why?
I know,now they are made for ADHD kiddies who need instant stimulation and action without a pause in between. We went from one extreme to the other. Sadly, I would rather deal with the problems of past games in order to have a "World" and live my own "Story" rather than have a poorly written tale of connect the dots that me and 1000 other players are all forced into the same experience and "story"more or less. When everyone is the "hero" (seems the adhd crowd all need to be the badass hero or they wont play) and everyone is the savior of the land- Truth is NOBODY is the hero and its very hard to stand apart fromthe pack when we have all followed the same storyline.
IF I want a good story-I read a book. The "story"in ESO is sub par. Sorry...
There doesnt have to be these extremes though- The problems of older MMOSRPGs are valid but now we have action , single player games with instant gratification as a result. The pendulum swung waaaay too far to attract the console kiddies and the newer gamers who came into this hobby when PC sales exploded. prior to that, we came from a pen and paper world and thus the games were far more complex than today. Outside of the pretty colors and graphics and huge explosions(need tokeep the action kiddies happy) there isnt much under the hood anymore- Just a nice paint job-
At the rate of the "dumbing down" that is and has been occuring with MMORPGs todays baseline average player is far different than just a few years agoi and soon enough even you guys will see it as the games become more and more"farmville"style casual fests to encompass the new generation of facebook/mobile gamers who are now growing in numbers.
I think what most people who are very disappointed in ESO want is a middle ground. I dont think we are asking for 10 it to be UO or EQ but rather something a bit deeper than the "call of duty" instand action lobby type games that MMORPGs are becoming.
Ah the good old days ... when a boat trip took over 5 minutes and waiting for the boat usually took another 5+. When the quests in the game involved running between 6 or 10 npcs with each run taking 5 or 10 minutes. When story based adventures didn't exist and the only thing to do whilst grinding away killing those mobs was watching your xp bar. And running meant running - no mounts and speed buffs were limited. When becoming a master crafter felt like doing a seven year apprenticeship. When you had to carry your own arrows if you were ranged and - when you ran out it was a trip back to the vendor. The good old days before - say - the release of CoH. They just don't make them like they used to. I wonder why?
I know,now they are made for ADHD kiddies who need instant stimulation and action without a pause in between. We went from one extreme to the other. Sadly, I would rather deal with the problems of past games in order to have a "World" and live my own "Story" rather than have a poorly written tale of connect the dots that me and 1000 other players are all forced into the same experience and "story"more or less. When everyone is the "hero" (seems the adhd crowd all need to be the badass hero or they wont play) and everyone is the savior of the land- Truth is NOBODY is the hero and its very hard to stand apart fromthe pack when we have all followed the same storyline.
IF I want a good story-I read a book. The "story"in ESO is sub par. Sorry...
There doesnt have to be these extremes though- The problems of older MMOSRPGs are valid but now we have action , single player games with instant gratification as a result. The pendulum swung waaaay too far to attract the console kiddies and the newer gamers who came into this hobby when PC sales exploded. prior to that, we came from a pen and paper world and thus the games were far more complex than today. Outside of the pretty colors and graphics and huge explosions(need tokeep the action kiddies happy) there isnt much under the hood anymore- Just a nice paint job-
At the rate of the "dumbing down" that is and has been occuring with MMORPGs todays baseline average player is far different than just a few years agoi and soon enough even you guys will see it as the games become more and more"farmville"style casual fests to encompass the new generation of facebook/mobile gamers who are now growing in numbers.
I think what most people who are very disappointed in ESO want is a middle ground. I dont think we are asking for 10 it to be UO or EQ but rather something a bit deeper than the "call of duty" instand action lobby type games that MMORPGs are becoming.
Sub par to what? I prefer it to all the offline games main stories by a large margin. It isn't the best MMO storyline but it is up there.
Also you are really throwing around thinly veiled insults there. I am not even sure they count as thinly veiled, saying that the people who enjoy the game are console kiddies that need dumbing down to make it like farmville. All those comments do is make it look like you have never played the game O_o I would say the games additions make it MORE complicated, certainly not less. With upcoming spell crafting and guards vs thieves/murderers gameplay it will just continue to get more interesting.
I totally agree about travel being an important aspect of gaming though, and I wish ESO didn't have fast travel - or at the very least not let you teleport somewhere without being at a waypoint. I understand the difficulties of forming and moving your group to do dungeons with no fast travel, but for me it has always taken away the feeling of being part of the world. I think it is pretty cool when travelling is an adventure on its own, in addition to questing.
A lot of games struggle with how to avoid slowing down high level characters that need to travel through low level zones. A frequent bandaid is mounts, which works really well in my opinion. It still keeps people grounded in the gaming world, and lets the higher level (or at least richer) characters get around more quickly. Taxi style services I also like - as long as they show the actual travelling and still have some amount of a time commitment. I thought it was pretty cool seeing people flying overhead on a flight path in WoW, and it was a great way to handle it.
A few games continue working on this by making higher level characters less likely to be attacked by low level monsters, letting the high level toons cut directly across rather than following roads. That doesn't seem like a good compromise to me, the roads are there for a reason. Then comes the next workaround, flying mounts. This is way too far to me, letting players travel without any interaction with the world at all may as well be teleporting.
Which is of course the route most games end up taking. Almost all games are including fast travel, and more recently the number of places they let you fast travel to is getting absurd (SWTOR and ESO do this, the worst offender is GW2). If it doesn't matter where you are in the world, why is there a world in the first place?
I do not see fast travel going away anytime soon, though. It solves way too many problems. It makes grouping easier, bank management easier, lets players skip over things they do not want to interact with, and makes the game more playable in short bursts. Not worth it in my opinion, but I do see the benefits of it.
I think what most people who are very disappointed in ESO want is a middle ground. I dont think we are asking for 10 it to be UO or EQ but rather something a bit deeper than the "call of duty" instand action lobby type games that MMORPGs are becoming.
By "we" do you mean you who exaggerates shit out of all proportion to the extent that you sabotage whatever point you may otherwise have?
Wtf does the part in red have to do with ESO? Do you even know anything about this game?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Having played Everquest myself from 1999 I do agree the world seemed massive and immersive but I have to say that a lot of it was very tedious too. Yes we felt that it was so large because we had to run everywhere and if you died on the way you had to come back and collect your corpse. It did make the game seem very hard and it was very ,very involved and fun too. There were very few quests and not much depended on quests and mainly we got experience by grinding for hours and hours. I cannot say I liked that part at all especially since I used to wait for hours to get a group as a wizard. I have no wish to go back to that aspect of EQ. I loved EQ to death but I remember its flaws too.
It is also quite non sequitur to say if I wanted a good story I would read a book because books only have words and rely on your imagination. Games give you the whole world and the stories come as an added bonus and spending time reading and doing the quests in ESO, SWTOR or TSW is actually a different and fulfilling experience and it is a different experience from that which I had in Everquest. It is different not necessarily worse or of poor quality.
Many have not learned to appreciate games for their differences .Many of you just want the past and refuse to see the many things newer games give us and dismiss them off hand.
Playing ESO now I do not use the fast travel and I run everywhere and the quests have been very well done and I do read everything. I must say you have to make an effort to read and appreciate the writing and yes a book may be better but I also get to kill and ,craft and dress up and talk to other people which I cannot do while I am reading a book . While I enjoy reading as a hobby playing ESO is not shabbier.
It is also wrong to disparage or minimize this type of experience and call people shallow because they can enjoy a story in a game.
It gets pretty annoying to have people - who quite obviously have either barely played the game or haven't at all - spouting their utter misunderstandings of how it works.
And which misunderstandings are those?
I've played the heck out of Morrowind, Oblvion and Skyrim (years for each), fooling around with Daggerfall, and have been entrenched in a large mod project for about a year.
I have been a subscriber to ESO since the start and prior to that, not only followed it, but stood in line for over 2 hours (2 hours and 30 minutes the second time) so I am not a passerby to the elderscrolls games.
And exploration in ESO doesn't yield the same results. Not even close. They do yield some nifty quests, one can find a few hidden gems here and there but heading out, finding a ruin and going hogwild is not really how this game plays.
I'm enjoying it and don't plan to stop but I'd rather have the large open world and multiple dungeons/caves/mines of any of the other elderscrolls games.
Oh, and I took, my higher level character to one of the group dungeons to see if I could go through it solo and actually experience the story (as experiencing it with a group running ahead wasn't very fun) and I wasn't let in.
that was a shame.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Bladestrom The misunderstanding that eso plays like your typical wow and that it is somehow trying to compete with skyrim (at the same time it seems)
Well, if that is the case, then that would be a huge misunderstanding.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think what most people who are very disappointed in ESO want is a middle ground. I dont think we are asking for 10 it to be UO or EQ but rather something a bit deeper than the "call of duty" instand action lobby type games that MMORPGs are becoming.
By "we" do you mean you who exaggerates shit out of all proportion to the extent that you sabotage whatever point you may otherwise have?
Wtf does the part in red have to do with ESO? Do you even know anything about this game?
Exactly.. I don't know what game they were playing that was like call of duty, but it certainly wasn't ESO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think what most people who are very disappointed in ESO want is a middle ground. I dont think we are asking for 10 it to be UO or EQ but rather something a bit deeper than the "call of duty" instand action lobby type games that MMORPGs are becoming.
By "we" do you mean you who exaggerates shit out of all proportion to the extent that you sabotage whatever point you may otherwise have?
Wtf does the part in red have to do with ESO? Do you even know anything about this game?
My comment was supposed to be more broad and encompassing of the entire genre- The lobby action type games that MMOPRGS are becoming (I didnt say just ESO but was pretty inclusive) is what we are essentially getting thanks to "Dungeon Finder" with instant warp to the instance, etc... Jump to PVPi nstance ,etc... Thats essentially a lobby.
Kind of like my comment that the genre will continue to dumb itself down to bring more of the facebook game players and mobile gamers into the money pool. I wasnt comparing ESO to farmville at all but was generally expressing the way the entire genre is heading. I call em like I see'em. Facebook gamers are now becoming a huge proportion and ghames like AA have already started to move in the direction of using "energy" to allow the amount of time you can do X before having to pay or wait on a timer.
-Aside from that, yes,I played ESO, hated it. Wasnt a world at all but a quest grinder. As I previously said there should have been a middle ground. I (and most others) dont particularly want the tedium of old games but the ADHD games we have now are essentially action/arcade games with stats and equipment. This also transcends the genre as many of the AAA RPGs are going the same route to be the most inclusive and reach the broadest audience.
Someone said that "If I want a good story I will just read a book"...
That is 100% true. Novelist go through a lot more rigorous work trying to publish and perfect a story. You can go to the movie theater as well and see how there are so many crappy stories that cost so much money. The rigor in story editing (not picture editing) takes a huge hit. Then you have videogames and those stories can be flat out terrible, but that's because you have gameplay to spend your money on.
ESO is good at gameplay and good at video game stories. Skyrim is great at gameplay and okay/good at a video game story. There's never a point in ANY ES game where I was like OMGWOW GREAT STORY! Metal Gear Solid: Guns of the Patriots on the other hand? Good stuff.
Still with respect to the about quoted person, for an MMO, ESO has a GREAT set of stories.
I think what most people who are very disappointed in ESO want is a middle ground. I dont think we are asking for 10 it to be UO or EQ but rather something a bit deeper than the "call of duty" instand action lobby type games that MMORPGs are becoming.
By "we" do you mean you who exaggerates shit out of all proportion to the extent that you sabotage whatever point you may otherwise have?
Wtf does the part in red have to do with ESO? Do you even know anything about this game?
My comment was supposed to be more broad and encompassing of the entire genre- The lobby action type games that MMOPRGS are becoming (I didnt say just ESO but was pretty inclusive) is what we are essentially getting thanks to "Dungeon Finder" with instant warp to the instance, etc... Jump to PVPi nstance ,etc... Thats essentially a lobby.
Kind of like my comment that the genre will continue to dumb itself down to bring more of the facebook game players and mobile gamers into the money pool. I wasnt comparing ESO to farmville at all but was generally expressing the way the entire genre is heading. I call em like I see'em. Facebook gamers are now becoming a huge proportion and ghames like AA have already started to move in the direction of using "energy" to allow the amount of time you can do X before having to pay or wait on a timer.
-Aside from that, yes,I played ESO, hated it. Wasnt a world at all but a quest grinder. As I previously said there should have been a middle ground. I (and most others) dont particularly want the tedium of old games but the ADHD games we have now are essentially action/arcade games with stats and equipment. This also transcends the genre as many of the AAA RPGs are going the same route to be the most inclusive and reach the broadest audience.
Well, I played it, play it and like it but I also would have liked more openness like in the SP games. That would have been more fitting and more fun but hey, that's life: if I don't design it it's bound to have shit in it I'd do differently and think that my "different" would be better.
But it's more fun than anything else out there, including sandboxes, sandparks, themeparks and any other round hole you want to stick MMO square pegs into.
Shit, they've even gone part way toward the old and away from the new with several features: running dungeons are not the be all and end all (see the other thread in this forum,) they did away with AH to encourage lower scale trading, etc.
But here's a clue for you if you want to be critical about a game or praise it, be honest: give credit where credit is due and focus your criticism. Otherwise people read what you write as just more boring fanboy or hater exagerated shit.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
^^ a quest-grinder? Generally speaking you don't grind stories you read and enjoy them. that is the problem with mmos getting pushed towards action etc - they don't want the journey they want the progress. I Defend ESO because it's the first MMO in years that did not create the hub-rush-xp-power meta game. just look at the criticisms levelled at ESO : it's not as good as skyrim, it doesn't have lobbies got instances, theres too much content (300+ hours voice acted quests, its a grind!)
So Ye if you really want to avoid all mmos being action - power gain fests then people need to learn (unlearn?) to enjoy mmorpg that are not following that path, and realising no fame is going to perfectly match every single persons shopping list of features.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
soo, our OP wants a singe player game as mmo. yep. totaly legit.
what you want does not exist. if you'd "simply" make skyrim an mmo it would not work, because everyone would be killing the npcs and whatnot. quite simple.
It "would not work" for those not sick of WoW clones. It does work for the rest of us. You can go play a WoW clone, ser. What OP wants already exists! It's called Dragon's Dogma Dark Arisen by *Capcom. Come play it.
*Capcom made Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, & Monster Hunter.
Comments
With every popular IP there is certain fan following which gives games a certain edge. Regardless of whether it is MMO or CO OP, with a name like ES it should have sold like hot cakes and should have more impressive numbers to flaunt. It is ES after all and not your average run of the mill unknown brand.
I agree- Totally.
As much as I hate the phrase 'WOW Killer"and think its overused- ESO COULD have done it. Obviously thats my opinion but I truely think had they made a sandpark type game (mixing elements of sandbox/theme parks) they would have eventually overshadowed wow as people are looking for a long term mmothats newer than WOW and TES is prettywell universally known and loved.
But you give no evidence other than "because it has to be so".
So an elderscrolls sideshooter would go like gangbusters? millions upon millions?
Or maybe elderscrolls players are into elderscrolls not only for the lore but for how they play?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So basically he wants a different checklist.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Don't forget that the most vocal ES crowd on the internet by far are the modders and fans of mods who enjoy changing Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim in ways that no MMO version would ever allow because of the obvious hacking implications.
I would guess that a huge portion of other Skyrim customers have never made a post in any forum about Skyrim.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think it's not about that specific word but more about:
I used to just play an MMO to be in the world, but now people even see the world as getting in the way and don't even want it any more
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Even if it has to be a mainstream themepark, why in gods name does it have to be like some kind of DAOC clone with even less world pvp than WOW, that being none and totally close of the areas from other factions? Wouldn't a PVPVE system more like AION with each race being a faction been more in line with Elder Scrolls lore? Seriously why did it have to be more like GW2, the answer is the market was testing out that particular model. 38 studios, GW2 and ESO were all in development at about the same time, most with some hybrid DAOC rvr with similar combat models. Even mop kept its expansion in line with what was coming. They were not trying to ever make an online Elder scrolls game, they were making DAOC 2.0 and seeing if they could strike gold because the suits were in charge. If they had made a more Elder scrolls friendly themepark this wouldnt be an issue. But I loved the Elder Scrolls games and absolutely hated DAOC and GW2 did it not ever pass their minds to product test on actual Elder Scrolls fans.
...have you played it? There is one area like DAoC. The rest of the game is like Elder Scrolls except other people are there and the main story is actually interesting.
Surely the people that enjoy the game just aren't actual elder scrolls fans though : /
It gets pretty annoying to have people - who quite obviously have either barely played the game or haven't at all - spouting their utter misunderstandings of how it works.
If there was actually any good faith involved - you can use mods to suppress quest markers, put in fog of war on the maps, and explore far more immersively than a normal MMO. It's actually *more successful* at that than Skyrim - because there are tons of clever visual clues for true exploring and questing. There are 300 hours of fully voiced quests - about the same (or more) as in any other single player ES game. There are areas the SP games haven't gone to with really cleverly crafted lore (the Khajit religion, for instance) and very atmospheric regions. The delves have been dramatically expanded...
I could go on, but for heavens sake people shouldn't attack games for things that they don't do, and they shouldn't critique them without knowing much of anything about what they are actually like.
Ah the good old days ... when a boat trip took over 5 minutes and waiting for the boat usually took another 5+. When the quests in the game involved running between 6 or 10 npcs with each run taking 5 or 10 minutes. When story based adventures didn't exist and the only thing to do whilst grinding away killing those mobs was watching your xp bar. And running meant running - no mounts and speed buffs were limited. When becoming a master crafter felt like doing a seven year apprenticeship. When you had to carry your own arrows if you were ranged and - when you ran out it was a trip back to the vendor. The good old days before - say - the release of CoH. They just don't make them like they used to. I wonder why?
I know,now they are made for ADHD kiddies who need instant stimulation and action without a pause in between. We went from one extreme to the other. Sadly, I would rather deal with the problems of past games in order to have a "World" and live my own "Story" rather than have a poorly written tale of connect the dots that me and 1000 other players are all forced into the same experience and "story"more or less. When everyone is the "hero" (seems the adhd crowd all need to be the badass hero or they wont play) and everyone is the savior of the land- Truth is NOBODY is the hero and its very hard to stand apart fromthe pack when we have all followed the same storyline.
IF I want a good story-I read a book. The "story"in ESO is sub par. Sorry...
There doesnt have to be these extremes though- The problems of older MMOSRPGs are valid but now we have action , single player games with instant gratification as a result. The pendulum swung waaaay too far to attract the console kiddies and the newer gamers who came into this hobby when PC sales exploded. prior to that, we came from a pen and paper world and thus the games were far more complex than today. Outside of the pretty colors and graphics and huge explosions(need tokeep the action kiddies happy) there isnt much under the hood anymore- Just a nice paint job-
At the rate of the "dumbing down" that is and has been occuring with MMORPGs todays baseline average player is far different than just a few years agoi and soon enough even you guys will see it as the games become more and more"farmville"style casual fests to encompass the new generation of facebook/mobile gamers who are now growing in numbers.
I think what most people who are very disappointed in ESO want is a middle ground. I dont think we are asking for 10 it to be UO or EQ but rather something a bit deeper than the "call of duty" instand action lobby type games that MMORPGs are becoming.
Sub par to what? I prefer it to all the offline games main stories by a large margin. It isn't the best MMO storyline but it is up there.
Also you are really throwing around thinly veiled insults there. I am not even sure they count as thinly veiled, saying that the people who enjoy the game are console kiddies that need dumbing down to make it like farmville. All those comments do is make it look like you have never played the game O_o I would say the games additions make it MORE complicated, certainly not less. With upcoming spell crafting and guards vs thieves/murderers gameplay it will just continue to get more interesting.
I totally agree about travel being an important aspect of gaming though, and I wish ESO didn't have fast travel - or at the very least not let you teleport somewhere without being at a waypoint. I understand the difficulties of forming and moving your group to do dungeons with no fast travel, but for me it has always taken away the feeling of being part of the world. I think it is pretty cool when travelling is an adventure on its own, in addition to questing.
A lot of games struggle with how to avoid slowing down high level characters that need to travel through low level zones. A frequent bandaid is mounts, which works really well in my opinion. It still keeps people grounded in the gaming world, and lets the higher level (or at least richer) characters get around more quickly. Taxi style services I also like - as long as they show the actual travelling and still have some amount of a time commitment. I thought it was pretty cool seeing people flying overhead on a flight path in WoW, and it was a great way to handle it.
A few games continue working on this by making higher level characters less likely to be attacked by low level monsters, letting the high level toons cut directly across rather than following roads. That doesn't seem like a good compromise to me, the roads are there for a reason. Then comes the next workaround, flying mounts. This is way too far to me, letting players travel without any interaction with the world at all may as well be teleporting.
Which is of course the route most games end up taking. Almost all games are including fast travel, and more recently the number of places they let you fast travel to is getting absurd (SWTOR and ESO do this, the worst offender is GW2). If it doesn't matter where you are in the world, why is there a world in the first place?
I do not see fast travel going away anytime soon, though. It solves way too many problems. It makes grouping easier, bank management easier, lets players skip over things they do not want to interact with, and makes the game more playable in short bursts. Not worth it in my opinion, but I do see the benefits of it.
By "we" do you mean you who exaggerates shit out of all proportion to the extent that you sabotage whatever point you may otherwise have?
Wtf does the part in red have to do with ESO? Do you even know anything about this game?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Having played Everquest myself from 1999 I do agree the world seemed massive and immersive but I have to say that a lot of it was very tedious too. Yes we felt that it was so large because we had to run everywhere and if you died on the way you had to come back and collect your corpse. It did make the game seem very hard and it was very ,very involved and fun too. There were very few quests and not much depended on quests and mainly we got experience by grinding for hours and hours. I cannot say I liked that part at all especially since I used to wait for hours to get a group as a wizard. I have no wish to go back to that aspect of EQ. I loved EQ to death but I remember its flaws too.
It is also quite non sequitur to say if I wanted a good story I would read a book because books only have words and rely on your imagination. Games give you the whole world and the stories come as an added bonus and spending time reading and doing the quests in ESO, SWTOR or TSW is actually a different and fulfilling experience and it is a different experience from that which I had in Everquest. It is different not necessarily worse or of poor quality.
Many have not learned to appreciate games for their differences .Many of you just want the past and refuse to see the many things newer games give us and dismiss them off hand.
Playing ESO now I do not use the fast travel and I run everywhere and the quests have been very well done and I do read everything. I must say you have to make an effort to read and appreciate the writing and yes a book may be better but I also get to kill and ,craft and dress up and talk to other people which I cannot do while I am reading a book . While I enjoy reading as a hobby playing ESO is not shabbier.
It is also wrong to disparage or minimize this type of experience and call people shallow because they can enjoy a story in a game.
And which misunderstandings are those?
I've played the heck out of Morrowind, Oblvion and Skyrim (years for each), fooling around with Daggerfall, and have been entrenched in a large mod project for about a year.
I have been a subscriber to ESO since the start and prior to that, not only followed it, but stood in line for over 2 hours (2 hours and 30 minutes the second time) so I am not a passerby to the elderscrolls games.
And exploration in ESO doesn't yield the same results. Not even close. They do yield some nifty quests, one can find a few hidden gems here and there but heading out, finding a ruin and going hogwild is not really how this game plays.
I'm enjoying it and don't plan to stop but I'd rather have the large open world and multiple dungeons/caves/mines of any of the other elderscrolls games.
Oh, and I took, my higher level character to one of the group dungeons to see if I could go through it solo and actually experience the story (as experiencing it with a group running ahead wasn't very fun) and I wasn't let in.
that was a shame.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Well, if that is the case, then that would be a huge misunderstanding.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Exactly.. I don't know what game they were playing that was like call of duty, but it certainly wasn't ESO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My comment was supposed to be more broad and encompassing of the entire genre- The lobby action type games that MMOPRGS are becoming (I didnt say just ESO but was pretty inclusive) is what we are essentially getting thanks to "Dungeon Finder" with instant warp to the instance, etc... Jump to PVPi nstance ,etc... Thats essentially a lobby.
Kind of like my comment that the genre will continue to dumb itself down to bring more of the facebook game players and mobile gamers into the money pool. I wasnt comparing ESO to farmville at all but was generally expressing the way the entire genre is heading. I call em like I see'em. Facebook gamers are now becoming a huge proportion and ghames like AA have already started to move in the direction of using "energy" to allow the amount of time you can do X before having to pay or wait on a timer.
-Aside from that, yes,I played ESO, hated it. Wasnt a world at all but a quest grinder. As I previously said there should have been a middle ground. I (and most others) dont particularly want the tedium of old games but the ADHD games we have now are essentially action/arcade games with stats and equipment. This also transcends the genre as many of the AAA RPGs are going the same route to be the most inclusive and reach the broadest audience.
Someone said that "If I want a good story I will just read a book"...
That is 100% true. Novelist go through a lot more rigorous work trying to publish and perfect a story. You can go to the movie theater as well and see how there are so many crappy stories that cost so much money. The rigor in story editing (not picture editing) takes a huge hit. Then you have videogames and those stories can be flat out terrible, but that's because you have gameplay to spend your money on.
ESO is good at gameplay and good at video game stories. Skyrim is great at gameplay and okay/good at a video game story. There's never a point in ANY ES game where I was like OMGWOW GREAT STORY! Metal Gear Solid: Guns of the Patriots on the other hand? Good stuff.
Still with respect to the about quoted person, for an MMO, ESO has a GREAT set of stories.
Well, I played it, play it and like it but I also would have liked more openness like in the SP games. That would have been more fitting and more fun but hey, that's life: if I don't design it it's bound to have shit in it I'd do differently and think that my "different" would be better.
But it's more fun than anything else out there, including sandboxes, sandparks, themeparks and any other round hole you want to stick MMO square pegs into.
Shit, they've even gone part way toward the old and away from the new with several features: running dungeons are not the be all and end all (see the other thread in this forum,) they did away with AH to encourage lower scale trading, etc.
But here's a clue for you if you want to be critical about a game or praise it, be honest: give credit where credit is due and focus your criticism. Otherwise people read what you write as just more boring fanboy or hater exagerated shit.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So Ye if you really want to avoid all mmos being action - power gain fests then people need to learn (unlearn?) to enjoy mmorpg that are not following that path, and realising no fame is going to perfectly match every single persons shopping list of features.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
It "would not work" for those not sick of WoW clones. It does work for the rest of us. You can go play a WoW clone, ser. What OP wants already exists! It's called Dragon's Dogma Dark Arisen by *Capcom. Come play it.
*Capcom made Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, & Monster Hunter.