Great post OP; posted on Valentines day to remember your long lost love of EQ? I share that sentiment. Well EQ was my second MMO; I tried hard to get into UO but the game was simply unplayable due to framerate issues or network bandwidth issues or both. Around the time of UO Second Age, I intended to try it again; but instead heard about EQ. EQ played very well; no framerate or bandwidth issues. Not sure if I had a new computer by then, though.
Loved EQ, miss it; and still keep in touch with one or two guys from back in the day. The rest are in my memories and I miss each one of them (100+)
Glad that certain site which shall remain nameless is still in existence. Once in a while I think about firing up that emu again.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Great post OP; posted on Valentines day to remember your long lost love of EQ? I share that sentiment. Well EQ was my second MMO; I tried hard to get into UO but the game was simply unplayable due to framerate issues or network bandwidth issues or both. Around the time of UO Second Age, I intended to try it again; but instead heard about EQ. EQ played very well; no framerate or bandwidth issues. Not sure if I had a new computer by then, though.
Loved EQ, miss it; and still keep in touch with one or two guys from back in the day. The rest are in my memories and I miss each one of them (100+)
Glad that certain site which shall remain nameless is still in existence. Once in a while I think about firing up that emu again.
LOL! Actually no. I didn't even notice until you mentioned it. Totally coincidental.
I've noticed in a lot of years experience gaming in this genre that player nostalgia is a HUGE thing; everyone always yearns for how things used to be, how things should have been and decries how things were ruined by [insert unpalatable change here].
It's pretty common across these type of games which - yes - do tend to spawn a very addictive and obsessive and personal feeling of investment in one's character.
Avalon - a text MUD I play that has been running for 25 years - has recently undergone a massive redevelopment / redesign to focus its gamesystem away from the ability to automate PVP and this has spawned much the same outrage from players -- pleas or things to be changed back or (more apposite) complaints because it's easier to complain than to keep up with a new gamesystem that offers more of a challenge than the old.
I've noticed in a lot of years experience gaming in this genre that player nostalgia is a HUGE thing; everyone always yearns for how things used to be, how things should have been and decries how things were ruined by [insert unpalatable change here].
It's pretty common across these type of games which - yes - do tend to spawn a very addictive and obsessive and personal feeling of investment in one's character.
Avalon - a text MUD I play that has been running for 25 years - has recently undergone a massive redevelopment / redesign to focus its gamesystem away from the ability to automate PVP and this has spawned much the same outrage from players -- pleas or things to be changed back or (more apposite) complaints because it's easier to complain than to keep up with a new gamesystem that offers more of a challenge than the old.
Very interesting indeed.
You know...I have been on here much less the last couple of weeks because I've been back into EQ heavily.
Although it has been changed to be easier and pull more players back to it, or new ones to it to try...it STILL offers more challenge and danger than current MMORPG's..to me anyways. And that isn't nostalgia...it's just how I feel through playing it compared to more recent ones I've played. The nostalgia sets in running the zones and recounting fond memories with Guildies and people I befriended in it's heyday.
And the community is still there. Friendly and helpful. Lovin it...unlike McDonald's..yuck!
I've noticed in a lot of years experience gaming in this genre that player nostalgia is a HUGE thing; everyone always yearns for how things used to be, how things should have been and decries how things were ruined by [insert unpalatable change here].
It's pretty common across these type of games which - yes - do tend to spawn a very addictive and obsessive and personal feeling of investment in one's character.
Avalon - a text MUD I play that has been running for 25 years - has recently undergone a massive redevelopment / redesign to focus its gamesystem away from the ability to automate PVP and this has spawned much the same outrage from players -- pleas or things to be changed back or (more apposite) complaints because it's easier to complain than to keep up with a new gamesystem that offers more of a challenge than the old.
Very interesting indeed.
You know...I have been on here much less the last couple of weeks because I've been back into EQ heavily.
Although it has been changed to be easier and pull more players back to it, or new ones to it to try...it STILL offers more challenge and danger than current MMORPG's..to me anyways. And that isn't nostalgia...it's just how I feel through playing it compared to more recent ones I've played. The nostalgia sets in running the zones and recounting fond memories with Guildies and people I befriended in it's heyday.
And the community is still there. Friendly and helpful. Lovin it...unlike McDonald's..yuck!
That levellnig was harder/more time consuming is a fact. People get nostalgic even about things which they didn't like at the time. I still remember when I was obsessed with vanilla WoW and I could think of how painful levellnig was as my warrior would die from mobs lvl 1-2 lower than him. I still remember how sometimes I would die even before hitting the mob once. Then I remember all the raiding. Now that was the definition of raiding for no lifers. I am not sure if it was a relic of the past from prior MMOs like EQ that WoW preserved but the only reason I was able to raid in WoW was because I was in school at the time. I still remember the endless farm for resistance gear, afrming reputation which consisted of grinding the same mobs like a billion times and I still remember how expensive it was to buy a mount. Even respecing completely broke the bank. The grinding prior to each raid was ridiculous - farming for flasks, the sick repairs, respecs etc. Also once you were in the raid you could spend hours and hour grinding through trash mobs. I still remember 6 hour long raids and at the end the likelihood of you getting any item was very low. You could be grinding raids for months without getting a single item. A friend grinding one dungeon like 30-40 times and he never got the best in slot item pre-raiding item he needed. IT just never dropped for him. And that's all he needed from that dungeon.
Do I think that it was fun at the time? Yes, absolutely. I loved every bit of it. Do I think it was challenging? It certainly was challenging to get any raid gear or become a high warlord. You had to dedicate your life to that game.
While I loved it all, I would never want to go back to that. I don't want to be stuck to my tanking spec and having to grind for hours just to cover the respec/repair if I wanted to do some PvP. Also getting your PvP rank and boom if god forbid you have to stop playing the game for a few weeks, you lose all your progress.
I think games like EQ and classic vanilla with their excessive grinds are a thing of the past. They were super fun at the time but they will tank very quickly in today's market. No one can convince me that they raided in one of those games without spending 30+ hours a week on the game. It all seemed "epic" as you put it and very immersive. THe community was great simply because people had to be nice to each other to complete dungeons/raids/quests. I often had to find people to group up with when levelling my warrior as soloing as a warrior made you want to cut your wrists hard.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I've noticed in a lot of years experience gaming in this genre that player nostalgia is a HUGE thing; everyone always yearns for how things used to be, how things should have been and decries how things were ruined by [insert unpalatable change here].
It's pretty common across these type of games which - yes - do tend to spawn a very addictive and obsessive and personal feeling of investment in one's character.
Avalon - a text MUD I play that has been running for 25 years - has recently undergone a massive redevelopment / redesign to focus its gamesystem away from the ability to automate PVP and this has spawned much the same outrage from players -- pleas or things to be changed back or (more apposite) complaints because it's easier to complain than to keep up with a new gamesystem that offers more of a challenge than the old.
Very interesting indeed.
You know...I have been on here much less the last couple of weeks because I've been back into EQ heavily.
Although it has been changed to be easier and pull more players back to it, or new ones to it to try...it STILL offers more challenge and danger than current MMORPG's..to me anyways. And that isn't nostalgia...it's just how I feel through playing it compared to more recent ones I've played. The nostalgia sets in running the zones and recounting fond memories with Guildies and people I befriended in it's heyday.
And the community is still there. Friendly and helpful. Lovin it...unlike McDonald's..yuck!
Do I think that it was fun at the time? Yes, absolutely. I loved every bit of it. Do I think it was challenging? It certainly was challenging to get any raid gear or become a high warlord. You had to dedicate your life to that game.
While I loved it all, I would never want to go back to that. I don't want to be stuck to my tanking spec and having to grind for hours just to cover the respec/repair if I wanted to do some PvP. Also getting your PvP rank and boom if god forbid you have to stop playing the game for a few weeks, you lose all your progress.
I think games like EQ and classic vanilla with their excessive grinds are a thing of the past. They were super fun at the time but they will tank very quickly in today's market. No one can convince me that they raided in one of those games without spending 30+ hours a week on the game. It all seemed "epic" as you put it and very immersive. THe community was great simply because people had to be nice to each other to complete dungeons/raids/quests. I often had to find people to group up with when levelling my warrior as soloing as a warrior made you want to cut your wrists hard.
Personally, I feel part of the problem with MMORPG's today is the implementation of PvP into them. It basically makes them rat races to be #1 on stat boards, or your server, etc. .And they make you feel games of old were too grindy, slow, time consuming (They were, but bare with me), when in essence, it's just PvP wasn't the main staple of them (UO is the exception, but also wasn't 3D) so there wasn't a need to feel you can't miss any time or you were being left behind.
I could care less about PvP in an MMORPG myself. If I want PvP, I play FPS games, or Tekken, or go to Taekwando class to spar. Just feel it has no place in an MMORPG. But hey, if others like it, more power to them.
Really though...even the ones with PvP are just as time consuming, grindy, etc. You still have to do the progression multiple times for gear, still have to do the battlegrounds dozens upon dozens of times for the ranks, etc. Only difference I see is that they are in shorter spurts, but seemingly many times more over than having done raids in EQ for adventuring gear.
Yep, I tried the PvP thing in WoW...just wasn't for me. And no, before some smart$%@ comes in and says "Probably because you sucked at it." No...I was decent enough to make things very difficult on the opposition (Undead Priest)...just the excessive grinding to just be high on the boards wasn't worth it to me. I mean, once there...who cares? Then you are just grinding to stay there.
Its really no different. Just implemented different to make it seem less grindy.
I've noticed in a lot of years experience gaming in this genre that player nostalgia is a HUGE thing; everyone always yearns for how things used to be, how things should have been and decries how things were ruined by [insert unpalatable change here].
It's pretty common across these type of games which - yes - do tend to spawn a very addictive and obsessive and personal feeling of investment in one's character.
Avalon - a text MUD I play that has been running for 25 years - has recently undergone a massive redevelopment / redesign to focus its gamesystem away from the ability to automate PVP and this has spawned much the same outrage from players -- pleas or things to be changed back or (more apposite) complaints because it's easier to complain than to keep up with a new gamesystem that offers more of a challenge than the old.
Very interesting indeed.
You know...I have been on here much less the last couple of weeks because I've been back into EQ heavily.
Although it has been changed to be easier and pull more players back to it, or new ones to it to try...it STILL offers more challenge and danger than current MMORPG's..to me anyways. And that isn't nostalgia...it's just how I feel through playing it compared to more recent ones I've played. The nostalgia sets in running the zones and recounting fond memories with Guildies and people I befriended in it's heyday.
And the community is still there. Friendly and helpful. Lovin it...unlike McDonald's..yuck!
Do I think that it was fun at the time? Yes, absolutely. I loved every bit of it. Do I think it was challenging? It certainly was challenging to get any raid gear or become a high warlord. You had to dedicate your life to that game.
While I loved it all, I would never want to go back to that. I don't want to be stuck to my tanking spec and having to grind for hours just to cover the respec/repair if I wanted to do some PvP. Also getting your PvP rank and boom if god forbid you have to stop playing the game for a few weeks, you lose all your progress.
I think games like EQ and classic vanilla with their excessive grinds are a thing of the past. They were super fun at the time but they will tank very quickly in today's market. No one can convince me that they raided in one of those games without spending 30+ hours a week on the game. It all seemed "epic" as you put it and very immersive. THe community was great simply because people had to be nice to each other to complete dungeons/raids/quests. I often had to find people to group up with when levelling my warrior as soloing as a warrior made you want to cut your wrists hard.
Personally, I feel part of the problem with MMORPG's today is the implementation of PvP into them. It basically makes them rat races to be #1 on stat boards, or your server, etc. .And they make you feel games of old were too grindy, slow, time consuming (They were, but bare with me), when in essence, it's just PvP wasn't the main staple of them (UO is the exception, but also wasn't 3D) so there wasn't a need to feel you can't miss any time or you were being left behind.
I could care less about PvP in an MMORPG myself. If I want PvP, I play FPS games, or Tekken, or go to Taekwando class to spar. Just feel it has no place in an MMORPG. But hey, if others like it, more power to them.
Really though...even the ones with PvP are just as time consuming, grindy, etc. You still have to do the progression multiple times for gear, still have to do the battlegrounds dozens upon dozens of times for the ranks, etc. Only difference I see is that they are in shorter spurts, but seemingly many times more over than having done raids in EQ for adventuring gear.
Yep, I tried the PvP thing in WoW...just wasn't for me. And no, before some smart$%@ comes in and says "Probably because you sucked at it." No...I was decent enough to make things very difficult on the opposition (Undead Priest)...just the excessive grinding to just be high on the boards wasn't worth it to me. I mean, once there...who cares? Then you are just grinding to stay there.
Its really no different. Just implemented different to make it seem less grindy.
I personally enjoy both pvp and pve. I hate FPS with passion so that's not an option for my pvp fix. I really like MOBAs though.
Having said that grinding high warlord in WoW was not about being #1 on some stat boards etc. There were no stat boards/leader boards/achievements or anything like that. It was purely to get geared. No pvp rank, no pvp gear. What was even more funny was that the best PvP gear actually came from PvE. T3 would one shot everyone in T1 and two shot T2 people.
PvP in vanilla WoW didn't impact PvE in any way. Raiding was completely separate and it was just a grindy as PvP. THe problem with that old formula was not that it took forever to get geared. I can live with that, it gives you a longterm sense of progression and I enjoyed that.
The problem with PvE raiding at the time was that it was inaccessible. You needed to spend hours upon hours every week to "prepare" for a raid and then you needed to actually go to the raid which took ages. 4-6 hours were not unusual. And we are talking about 4-6 hours of non stop play. I can no longer afford to spend that much time on a game in one session. And raiding took part 2-4 times a week. So in total you needed to dedicate at least 30+ hours a week. FOr most people that's just impossible. THe biggest issue was not that it took ages to get gear, it was that you couldn't do it in short sessions, you had to commit to long raiding hours so the idea that it would only take you longer to get there doesn't apply. There were tons of people complaining about this at the time. So Blizzard gradually moved away from hardcore raiding to a very casual accessible raiding which you can do in 1 hour game sessions.
Levelling in those games was great as it was challenging. Pull 2 mobs = boom dead. Pull 1 mob and you can still die. But when you finish the levelling process (it took me 5-6 months back at launch) then you either raided long hours or there you rerolled a new char. EQ raiding was even worse than vanilla Wow in that it took even more time. Levelling was more difficult too.
I think people are not necessarily against slow levelling. Actually most people feel we level quite quickly now. But the old raiding and PvP systems would just not work today for anyone who has commitments outside of the game. Back then if you were a casual you never raided simply because you couldn't do it. So that left you with no content at max level outside of dungeons. Come to think of it, even dungeons back then could take 3-4 hours just to clear without taking into account putting a group together.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I've noticed in a lot of years experience gaming in this genre that player nostalgia is a HUGE thing; everyone always yearns for how things used to be, how things should have been and decries how things were ruined by [insert unpalatable change here].
It's pretty common across these type of games which - yes - do tend to spawn a very addictive and obsessive and personal feeling of investment in one's character.
Avalon - a text MUD I play that has been running for 25 years - has recently undergone a massive redevelopment / redesign to focus its gamesystem away from the ability to automate PVP and this has spawned much the same outrage from players -- pleas or things to be changed back or (more apposite) complaints because it's easier to complain than to keep up with a new gamesystem that offers more of a challenge than the old.
Very interesting indeed.
You know...I have been on here much less the last couple of weeks because I've been back into EQ heavily.
Although it has been changed to be easier and pull more players back to it, or new ones to it to try...it STILL offers more challenge and danger than current MMORPG's..to me anyways. And that isn't nostalgia...it's just how I feel through playing it compared to more recent ones I've played. The nostalgia sets in running the zones and recounting fond memories with Guildies and people I befriended in it's heyday.
And the community is still there. Friendly and helpful. Lovin it...unlike McDonald's..yuck!
Do I think that it was fun at the time? Yes, absolutely. I loved every bit of it. Do I think it was challenging? It certainly was challenging to get any raid gear or become a high warlord. You had to dedicate your life to that game.
While I loved it all, I would never want to go back to that. I don't want to be stuck to my tanking spec and having to grind for hours just to cover the respec/repair if I wanted to do some PvP. Also getting your PvP rank and boom if god forbid you have to stop playing the game for a few weeks, you lose all your progress.
I think games like EQ and classic vanilla with their excessive grinds are a thing of the past. They were super fun at the time but they will tank very quickly in today's market. No one can convince me that they raided in one of those games without spending 30+ hours a week on the game. It all seemed "epic" as you put it and very immersive. THe community was great simply because people had to be nice to each other to complete dungeons/raids/quests. I often had to find people to group up with when levelling my warrior as soloing as a warrior made you want to cut your wrists hard.
Personally, I feel part of the problem with MMORPG's today is the implementation of PvP into them. It basically makes them rat races to be #1 on stat boards, or your server, etc. .And they make you feel games of old were too grindy, slow, time consuming (They were, but bare with me), when in essence, it's just PvP wasn't the main staple of them (UO is the exception, but also wasn't 3D) so there wasn't a need to feel you can't miss any time or you were being left behind.
I could care less about PvP in an MMORPG myself. If I want PvP, I play FPS games, or Tekken, or go to Taekwando class to spar. Just feel it has no place in an MMORPG. But hey, if others like it, more power to them.
Really though...even the ones with PvP are just as time consuming, grindy, etc. You still have to do the progression multiple times for gear, still have to do the battlegrounds dozens upon dozens of times for the ranks, etc. Only difference I see is that they are in shorter spurts, but seemingly many times more over than having done raids in EQ for adventuring gear.
Yep, I tried the PvP thing in WoW...just wasn't for me. And no, before some smart$%@ comes in and says "Probably because you sucked at it." No...I was decent enough to make things very difficult on the opposition (Undead Priest)...just the excessive grinding to just be high on the boards wasn't worth it to me. I mean, once there...who cares? Then you are just grinding to stay there.
Its really no different. Just implemented different to make it seem less grindy.
PvP was basic of MMORPGs. It wasnt until PvE rat race skinner box based MMOs turned it around at the end of the century And then tried to fit PvP into that.
We had a game called Vanguard Saga of Heroes that was a modern old school type of game. Sadly, most of you people that wish for a game (that actually already existed) refused to play. Now, it is gone like and you will probably never get something like it brought back. Thank yourselves people.
Well considering that pve was a basic of original mmorpg games you could say the exact opposite with just as much truth.
Pve was basic of MMORPGs. It wasnt until Pvp rat race skinner box based MMOs turned it around at the end of the century And then tried to fit Pve into that.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Well considering that pve was a basic of original mmorpg games you could say the exact opposite with just as much truth.
Pve was basic of MMORPGs. It wasnt until Pvp rat race skinner box based MMOs turned it around at the end of the century And then tried to fit Pve into that.
Well, now would be the time for you to list the games from muds to graphical MMOs (including eastern ones) and enlightn us all what they did or did not include.
*chuckle*
One is better off not saying anything than removing all doubt
Maybe he's like me and just didn't find it dangerous. I really didn't. The danger was bypassed by running the walls, running around or stopping and waiting. Not very dangerous at all imo.
Tactics are about not losing. The death penalty and the corpse run didn't increase anything for me. The challenge was in not losing, the same as big fights in today's games.
The mobs your level were generally harder, but that is just an arbitrary color code. We fought mobs that we found gave the best xp per kill, the exact same as today's games.
I pretty much played WoW, swtor, EQ2, HZ... even CoH, the exact same way I played EQ way back in 2002. There just really is not much difference again imo.
100% agreed.
Which is why I enjoy games not for their nostalgia or artificial barriers for enjoyment but for what they offer in long term fun and appeal. Plus the OP needs to remember that not all of us old school MMO players had the same beginnings. I started back in 99' with Asheron's Call and it offered many elements only found in non MMO games. Travel was super quick but you only could tie into the fast travel system via 1-2 spells and rely on gate hopping (and remembering the correct gates endpoints) and friends who had different waypoint ties. Combat was fast and you fought 20+ mobs at a time but it was tactical and required skill, exploration was vast, thanks to one of the largest, zone free worlds ever put in the genre, Solo centric style which allowed the player his choice on how and where to level but still allowed groups to shine. Everything the OP stated about EQ is why I and most of my MTG buddies who eventually quit MTG for the up and coming MMO PC gaming genre for played AC instead.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Yes the two biggest ones, of their time anyway. And as you say eq gave inspiration to WoW. Do it's easy and correct to say eq was the inspiration to the modern mmo.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes the two biggest ones, of their time anyway. And as you say eq gave inspiration to WoW. Do it's easy and correct to say eq was the inspiration to the modern mmo.
Its not modern MMO.
When somethign stagnates its not modern.
It was modern in 2004. same as Ford T isnt modern car.
GW2 is modern MMO. Certainly wasnt inspired by EQ or WoW.
1. Quest are irrelevant now because anything you want or need to know can simply be Googled. So the sense of mystery and all that is gone. FOREVER. No game out now or in the future will ever be able to give you a unique quest experience.
Thats just not true. I could tell you several ideas on how to make truly cool quests. Problem is that devs would need to give up the idea that quest can be done at every time in the same way every other player did it.
Let´s just start with Quest-NPCs. Why the hell dont those guy have a life? Do they really have to stand on the same place all the time? Why cant the travel with a caravan, then live their live in their hometown and after that visit a friend in another city?
So how can that Website help you to find your NPC if its on different places all the time? You would need to ask other players or other NPCs where to look for those guys. That way even bringing a simple letter to one NPC could end in a wonderful journey... for some players.... others will just find them within minutes and won´t remember that quest.
If you are creative you could easily find a lot of other options that make quests interesting again.
Maybe he's like me and just didn't find it dangerous. I really didn't. The danger was bypassed by running the walls, running around or stopping and waiting. Not very dangerous at all imo.
Tactics are about not losing. The death penalty and the corpse run didn't increase anything for me. The challenge was in not losing, the same as big fights in today's games.
The mobs your level were generally harder, but that is just an arbitrary color code. We fought mobs that we found gave the best xp per kill, the exact same as today's games.
I pretty much played WoW, swtor, EQ2, HZ... even CoH, the exact same way I played EQ way back in 2002. There just really is not much difference again imo.
100% agreed.
Which is why I enjoy games not for their nostalgia or artificial barriers for enjoyment but for what they offer in long term fun and appeal. Plus the OP needs to remember that not all of us old school MMO players had the same beginnings. I started back in 99' with Asheron's Call and it offered many elements only found in non MMO games. Travel was super quick but you only could tie into the fast travel system via 1-2 spells and rely on gate hopping (and remembering the correct gates endpoints) and friends who had different waypoint ties. Combat was fast and you fought 20+ mobs at a time but it was tactical and required skill, exploration was vast, thanks to one of the largest, zone free worlds ever put in the genre, Solo centric style which allowed the player his choice on how and where to level but still allowed groups to shine. Everything the OP stated about EQ is why I and most of my MTG buddies who eventually quit MTG for the up and coming MMO PC gaming genre for played AC instead.
Theres a whole genre of game today thats become very popular known as survival games and they use pretty much the same mechanics verbatim as EverQuest, and get no flack. You run around slowly, exploring. Progression takes time. It takes a while to heal. You have to eat and drink. Things like weight are a factor. If you die theres a sizable penalty.
EQ was the first survival game, yet no one looks at it that way because their vision is clouded by the slew of casual, instant gratification titles that have cropped up over the last decade. Its the same principle, in a fantasy world.
Maybe he's like me and just didn't find it dangerous. I really didn't. The danger was bypassed by running the walls, running around or stopping and waiting. Not very dangerous at all imo.
Tactics are about not losing. The death penalty and the corpse run didn't increase anything for me. The challenge was in not losing, the same as big fights in today's games.
The mobs your level were generally harder, but that is just an arbitrary color code. We fought mobs that we found gave the best xp per kill, the exact same as today's games.
I pretty much played WoW, swtor, EQ2, HZ... even CoH, the exact same way I played EQ way back in 2002. There just really is not much difference again imo.
100% agreed.
Which is why I enjoy games not for their nostalgia or artificial barriers for enjoyment but for what they offer in long term fun and appeal. Plus the OP needs to remember that not all of us old school MMO players had the same beginnings. I started back in 99' with Asheron's Call and it offered many elements only found in non MMO games. Travel was super quick but you only could tie into the fast travel system via 1-2 spells and rely on gate hopping (and remembering the correct gates endpoints) and friends who had different waypoint ties. Combat was fast and you fought 20+ mobs at a time but it was tactical and required skill, exploration was vast, thanks to one of the largest, zone free worlds ever put in the genre, Solo centric style which allowed the player his choice on how and where to level but still allowed groups to shine. Everything the OP stated about EQ is why I and most of my MTG buddies who eventually quit MTG for the up and coming MMO PC gaming genre for played AC instead.
Theres a whole genre of game today thats become very popular known as survival games and they use pretty much the same mechanics verbatim as EverQuest, and get no flack. You run around slowly, exploring. Progression takes time. It takes a while to heal. You have to eat and drink. Things like weight are a factor. If you die theres a sizable penalty.
EQ was the first survival game, yet no one looks at it that way because their vision is clouded by the slew of casual, instant gratification titles that have cropped up over the last decade. Its the same principle, in a fantasy world.
You have it backwards. EQ came from MUDs, which were very much influenced by roguelikes.
EQ polluted the survival mechanics of those games with tons and tons of gear and character investment. You can't have the massive gear and character investments of games like EQ and not seriously destroy the survival aspects of the gameplay.
There is a reason old school SWG Jedi sold for 1000s of dollars on ebay etc. Its because of the massive investment. Almost all survival and permadeath games can be constantly restarted over and over. EQ was expressly deviated from this.
The problem is not that any one of the various mechanics at stake are "bad" the problem is that when you put them in context with each there are serious conflicts.
EQ was extremely conflicted game from a design standpoint. I do not put all of that on the EQ devs however. A good 50% (or more) they inherited from the MUDs.
The whole death penalty debate is considerably older than EQ, we are talking more than a decade older. And the debate is not about severity it is about the nature of it. A lot of people mistake its as about severity and wanting things "easier". No EQ's death penalty is far far easier than most MUDs, but the same debate ensued and continued. We are talking the SAME debate for 20 fucking years people.
The problem was never that people wanted things "easier" the problem was that many players felt it was pointless. Sure it was painful but it accomplished only that, pain. The developers in their lockstep with Bartle said "Well we have to beat you because we love you. See if we don't torture you there won't be any meaning in the world." The player response was "That's fine and consequences are a good thing and we want that. But this losing 1/3rd of my total levels because the fireball on a Red Slaad does 5 times the damage of a fireball from a Elf conjurer and there is not way for me to know that and I was one shotted, seems, you know, kind of stupid in a game whose main purpose is to heavily invest in a character for months and months of time played." The answer to this was "Shut up, the world needs to mean something!".
In general on some level the various developers have known all along that the desenting players in MUDs were right. The real problem is no one has come up with an implementation to satisfy the critique. So they tell people to shut up because they don't have a good answer.
Yeah MUDs and therefore EQ had many mechanics similar to survival games. And they never did fit right. They WERE however there for a reason.
It may be the case that until someone comes up with a death mechanic that makes sense we are stuck with some sort of "harsh death penalty" (I still can't help but laugh at EQ's version of harsh, its so pathetic).
In survival games and roguelikes harsh death penalties makes sense. They often have the harshest of all; perma-death. But you have to accept that perma-death is the absolute antithesis of character investment. They literally cannot mutually co-exist. So the more you gravitate a game towards character progression and investment the more you have to make sure that this is not the center point of you game.
Thank you for good read OP and others, this thread was just the distraction I needed to break vicious cycle of work-related thoughts.
I never played EQ so I have no opinion on that game, so from OP's (and others) posts:
@nilde: This should be the a mission statement or quoted, "Those which make you feel like you aren't just playing another game, but actually entering another world."
So much of THIS in my dreamgame !
I think achieving this would mean almost all things OP mentioned:
* slow travel
* challenging questing
Challenging is a slippery slope here: I came to MMO's from puzzlegames, played all I found and I'm still playing all and every one of those I can get my hands on. So really, big arrow pointing eastwest and order to get 8 zhevra hooves isn't really challenging if you don't have to think what you're doing. And maybe, if finding and killing them would be a challenge, those poor thingys could all have four hooves and not just every Xth of them one hoof.
I woudn't put actual puzzlequests out of equation either: TSW has shown it can be done. Yes, yes, there will be guides but not reading those guides is an actual choice which woudn't ruin anything from anyone.
An other idea I'd borrow from TSW too: multipart quests and no need to actually return the quests to questgivers: in fantasysetting this could be done by messengers (owls, pidgeon's, even NPC) and in Sci-fi "Beam me up Scotty" style ofc .
It would also librate those poor questgivers from their stagnant lives to be free to roam around.
* Vast open world
* Interesting group quests
* Way to keep "lowerlvl" areas alive
I think this is pretty much the crucial thing: after the first rush those areas will come emptier and emptier (think of all the measures WoW has taken to bring some life to lower level zones). If areas become void of players, newcomers can't do group content.
So maybe:
- Higher "level" would need for example materials from those zones ? I think it is awful waste to create all those diffrent spawning points for materials, just to be used for a very short time to level professions. Why coudn't higher level gear need a mix of diffrent level materials ?
- Skill ? Gear ? scaling, so that you woudn't be on a godmode when returning to those lower areas.
Not so much needed imho:
Harsher deathpenalties: if the game is challenging enough, there should be no need.
I can only promise you that the time I spend leveling slowly, exploring slowly, questing slowly is not away from my family, my employer, my goverment and not even from you. Believe me: I even dare to walk slowly IRL at times.
Also, you've forgotten something: some of the inventions you don't even pay any attention to in your everyday life are the result of the people who dared to think diffrently. Talking (and maybe dreaming) about someone developing a slow game isn't even nearly as dearing or inventive as was getting a patent for the idea of a mobile phone at 1917 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Tigerstedt ).
And thanks for the laugh: I pictured myself on "Gotta Love Fast Travel" bootcamp, doing exercises with A Grim Sarge, singing something that rhymes with "Fast travel" and "Don't waste time".
I can only promise you that the time I spend leveling slowly, exploring slowly, questing slowly is not away from my family, my employer, my goverment and not even from you. Believe me: I even dare to walk slowly IRL at times.
Also, you've forgotten something: some of the inventions you don't even pay any attention to in your everyday life are the result of the people who dared to think diffrently. Talking (and maybe dreaming) about someone developing a slow game isn't even nearly as dearing or inventive as was getting a patent for the idea of a mobile phone at 1917 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Tigerstedt ).
And thanks for the laugh: I pictured myself on "Gotta Love Fast Travel" bootcamp, doing exercises with A Grim Sarge, singing something that rhymes with "Fast travel" and "Don't waste time".
I'm a little unclear. Are you disagreeing with me? Because you admitted you sometimes walk slowly.
Cars are fast travel. You admitted you walk slowly even though fast travel exists. Clearly cars haven't deprived you of that experience.
Being inventive is great of course, but we're essentially talking about people who want to un-invent cars.
Bootcamp implies a lack of freedom. When you don't have a car, you must slow-travel (no freedom.) With a car, you have the freedom to choose.
Consider also the fact that if you want to go hiking at that nice forested mountain with the awesome waterfall, that you probably decided to use a car to fast-travel to the mountain first. Your time was too valuable to walk all the way there, of course.
This is all the same as everything I've said the whole thread. Slow-travel-only is simply a bad design.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by f0dell54 We had a game called Vanguard Saga of Heroes that was a modern old school type of game. Sadly, most of you people that wish for a game (that actually already existed) refused to play. Now, it is gone like and you will probably never get something like it brought back. Thank yourselves people.
A lot of people played it. What really killed it was being rushed out of the gate and being in really bad shape for the first year it was out...turning people off to it. Especially when it was still in the subscription era and being in that horrid state it was in.
Now had it been polished and released with in better shape...I am sure it would have done great and still be thriving. In this day and age, first impressions mean a lot.
Comments
Great post OP; posted on Valentines day to remember your long lost love of EQ? I share that sentiment. Well EQ was my second MMO; I tried hard to get into UO but the game was simply unplayable due to framerate issues or network bandwidth issues or both. Around the time of UO Second Age, I intended to try it again; but instead heard about EQ. EQ played very well; no framerate or bandwidth issues. Not sure if I had a new computer by then, though.
Loved EQ, miss it; and still keep in touch with one or two guys from back in the day. The rest are in my memories and I miss each one of them (100+)
Glad that certain site which shall remain nameless is still in existence. Once in a while I think about firing up that emu again.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
LOL! Actually no. I didn't even notice until you mentioned it. Totally coincidental.
I've noticed in a lot of years experience gaming in this genre that player nostalgia is a HUGE thing; everyone always yearns for how things used to be, how things should have been and decries how things were ruined by [insert unpalatable change here].
It's pretty common across these type of games which - yes - do tend to spawn a very addictive and obsessive and personal feeling of investment in one's character.
Avalon - a text MUD I play that has been running for 25 years - has recently undergone a massive redevelopment / redesign to focus its gamesystem away from the ability to automate PVP and this has spawned much the same outrage from players -- pleas or things to be changed back or (more apposite) complaints because it's easier to complain than to keep up with a new gamesystem that offers more of a challenge than the old.
Very interesting indeed.
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
You know...I have been on here much less the last couple of weeks because I've been back into EQ heavily.
Although it has been changed to be easier and pull more players back to it, or new ones to it to try...it STILL offers more challenge and danger than current MMORPG's..to me anyways. And that isn't nostalgia...it's just how I feel through playing it compared to more recent ones I've played. The nostalgia sets in running the zones and recounting fond memories with Guildies and people I befriended in it's heyday.
And the community is still there. Friendly and helpful. Lovin it...unlike McDonald's..yuck!
That levellnig was harder/more time consuming is a fact. People get nostalgic even about things which they didn't like at the time. I still remember when I was obsessed with vanilla WoW and I could think of how painful levellnig was as my warrior would die from mobs lvl 1-2 lower than him. I still remember how sometimes I would die even before hitting the mob once. Then I remember all the raiding. Now that was the definition of raiding for no lifers. I am not sure if it was a relic of the past from prior MMOs like EQ that WoW preserved but the only reason I was able to raid in WoW was because I was in school at the time. I still remember the endless farm for resistance gear, afrming reputation which consisted of grinding the same mobs like a billion times and I still remember how expensive it was to buy a mount. Even respecing completely broke the bank. The grinding prior to each raid was ridiculous - farming for flasks, the sick repairs, respecs etc. Also once you were in the raid you could spend hours and hour grinding through trash mobs. I still remember 6 hour long raids and at the end the likelihood of you getting any item was very low. You could be grinding raids for months without getting a single item. A friend grinding one dungeon like 30-40 times and he never got the best in slot item pre-raiding item he needed. IT just never dropped for him. And that's all he needed from that dungeon.
Do I think that it was fun at the time? Yes, absolutely. I loved every bit of it. Do I think it was challenging? It certainly was challenging to get any raid gear or become a high warlord. You had to dedicate your life to that game.
While I loved it all, I would never want to go back to that. I don't want to be stuck to my tanking spec and having to grind for hours just to cover the respec/repair if I wanted to do some PvP. Also getting your PvP rank and boom if god forbid you have to stop playing the game for a few weeks, you lose all your progress.
I think games like EQ and classic vanilla with their excessive grinds are a thing of the past. They were super fun at the time but they will tank very quickly in today's market. No one can convince me that they raided in one of those games without spending 30+ hours a week on the game. It all seemed "epic" as you put it and very immersive. THe community was great simply because people had to be nice to each other to complete dungeons/raids/quests. I often had to find people to group up with when levelling my warrior as soloing as a warrior made you want to cut your wrists hard.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Personally, I feel part of the problem with MMORPG's today is the implementation of PvP into them. It basically makes them rat races to be #1 on stat boards, or your server, etc. .And they make you feel games of old were too grindy, slow, time consuming (They were, but bare with me), when in essence, it's just PvP wasn't the main staple of them (UO is the exception, but also wasn't 3D) so there wasn't a need to feel you can't miss any time or you were being left behind.
I could care less about PvP in an MMORPG myself. If I want PvP, I play FPS games, or Tekken, or go to Taekwando class to spar. Just feel it has no place in an MMORPG. But hey, if others like it, more power to them.
Really though...even the ones with PvP are just as time consuming, grindy, etc. You still have to do the progression multiple times for gear, still have to do the battlegrounds dozens upon dozens of times for the ranks, etc. Only difference I see is that they are in shorter spurts, but seemingly many times more over than having done raids in EQ for adventuring gear.
Yep, I tried the PvP thing in WoW...just wasn't for me. And no, before some smart$%@ comes in and says "Probably because you sucked at it." No...I was decent enough to make things very difficult on the opposition (Undead Priest)...just the excessive grinding to just be high on the boards wasn't worth it to me. I mean, once there...who cares? Then you are just grinding to stay there.
Its really no different. Just implemented different to make it seem less grindy.
I personally enjoy both pvp and pve. I hate FPS with passion so that's not an option for my pvp fix. I really like MOBAs though.
Having said that grinding high warlord in WoW was not about being #1 on some stat boards etc. There were no stat boards/leader boards/achievements or anything like that. It was purely to get geared. No pvp rank, no pvp gear. What was even more funny was that the best PvP gear actually came from PvE. T3 would one shot everyone in T1 and two shot T2 people.
PvP in vanilla WoW didn't impact PvE in any way. Raiding was completely separate and it was just a grindy as PvP. THe problem with that old formula was not that it took forever to get geared. I can live with that, it gives you a longterm sense of progression and I enjoyed that.
The problem with PvE raiding at the time was that it was inaccessible. You needed to spend hours upon hours every week to "prepare" for a raid and then you needed to actually go to the raid which took ages. 4-6 hours were not unusual. And we are talking about 4-6 hours of non stop play. I can no longer afford to spend that much time on a game in one session. And raiding took part 2-4 times a week. So in total you needed to dedicate at least 30+ hours a week. FOr most people that's just impossible. THe biggest issue was not that it took ages to get gear, it was that you couldn't do it in short sessions, you had to commit to long raiding hours so the idea that it would only take you longer to get there doesn't apply. There were tons of people complaining about this at the time. So Blizzard gradually moved away from hardcore raiding to a very casual accessible raiding which you can do in 1 hour game sessions.
Levelling in those games was great as it was challenging. Pull 2 mobs = boom dead. Pull 1 mob and you can still die. But when you finish the levelling process (it took me 5-6 months back at launch) then you either raided long hours or there you rerolled a new char. EQ raiding was even worse than vanilla Wow in that it took even more time. Levelling was more difficult too.
I think people are not necessarily against slow levelling. Actually most people feel we level quite quickly now. But the old raiding and PvP systems would just not work today for anyone who has commitments outside of the game. Back then if you were a casual you never raided simply because you couldn't do it. So that left you with no content at max level outside of dungeons. Come to think of it, even dungeons back then could take 3-4 hours just to clear without taking into account putting a group together.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
PvP was basic of MMORPGs. It wasnt until PvE rat race skinner box based MMOs turned it around at the end of the century And then tried to fit PvP into that.
Pve was basic of MMORPGs. It wasnt until Pvp rat race skinner box based MMOs turned it around at the end of the century And then tried to fit Pve into that.
Well, now would be the time for you to list the games from muds to graphical MMOs (including eastern ones) and enlightn us all what they did or did not include.
*chuckle*
One is better off not saying anything than removing all doubt
100% agreed.
Which is why I enjoy games not for their nostalgia or artificial barriers for enjoyment but for what they offer in long term fun and appeal. Plus the OP needs to remember that not all of us old school MMO players had the same beginnings. I started back in 99' with Asheron's Call and it offered many elements only found in non MMO games. Travel was super quick but you only could tie into the fast travel system via 1-2 spells and rely on gate hopping (and remembering the correct gates endpoints) and friends who had different waypoint ties. Combat was fast and you fought 20+ mobs at a time but it was tactical and required skill, exploration was vast, thanks to one of the largest, zone free worlds ever put in the genre, Solo centric style which allowed the player his choice on how and where to level but still allowed groups to shine. Everything the OP stated about EQ is why I and most of my MTG buddies who eventually quit MTG for the up and coming MMO PC gaming genre for played AC instead.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Both had pve as a significant part. In eq's car it was primarily pve.
Any other questions?
2 biggest ones? EQ was never close to biggest lol even in teh same league as biggest.
EQ didnt really start anything. Except it gave inspiration to WoW which in turn made ganre stagnant for 10 years.
Ironically EQ imploded with WoW
Its not modern MMO.
When somethign stagnates its not modern.
It was modern in 2004. same as Ford T isnt modern car.
GW2 is modern MMO. Certainly wasnt inspired by EQ or WoW.
Thats why west is in "MMO crisis" and MMOs flourish in the east.
EQ was just a big detour for MMOs in the west.
Thats just not true. I could tell you several ideas on how to make truly cool quests. Problem is that devs would need to give up the idea that quest can be done at every time in the same way every other player did it.
Let´s just start with Quest-NPCs. Why the hell dont those guy have a life? Do they really have to stand on the same place all the time? Why cant the travel with a caravan, then live their live in their hometown and after that visit a friend in another city?
So how can that Website help you to find your NPC if its on different places all the time? You would need to ask other players or other NPCs where to look for those guys. That way even bringing a simple letter to one NPC could end in a wonderful journey... for some players.... others will just find them within minutes and won´t remember that quest.
If you are creative you could easily find a lot of other options that make quests interesting again.
Theres a whole genre of game today thats become very popular known as survival games and they use pretty much the same mechanics verbatim as EverQuest, and get no flack. You run around slowly, exploring. Progression takes time. It takes a while to heal. You have to eat and drink. Things like weight are a factor. If you die theres a sizable penalty.
EQ was the first survival game, yet no one looks at it that way because their vision is clouded by the slew of casual, instant gratification titles that have cropped up over the last decade. Its the same principle, in a fantasy world.
You have it backwards. EQ came from MUDs, which were very much influenced by roguelikes.
EQ polluted the survival mechanics of those games with tons and tons of gear and character investment. You can't have the massive gear and character investments of games like EQ and not seriously destroy the survival aspects of the gameplay.
There is a reason old school SWG Jedi sold for 1000s of dollars on ebay etc. Its because of the massive investment. Almost all survival and permadeath games can be constantly restarted over and over. EQ was expressly deviated from this.
The problem is not that any one of the various mechanics at stake are "bad" the problem is that when you put them in context with each there are serious conflicts.
EQ was extremely conflicted game from a design standpoint. I do not put all of that on the EQ devs however. A good 50% (or more) they inherited from the MUDs.
The whole death penalty debate is considerably older than EQ, we are talking more than a decade older. And the debate is not about severity it is about the nature of it. A lot of people mistake its as about severity and wanting things "easier". No EQ's death penalty is far far easier than most MUDs, but the same debate ensued and continued. We are talking the SAME debate for 20 fucking years people.
The problem was never that people wanted things "easier" the problem was that many players felt it was pointless. Sure it was painful but it accomplished only that, pain. The developers in their lockstep with Bartle said "Well we have to beat you because we love you. See if we don't torture you there won't be any meaning in the world." The player response was "That's fine and consequences are a good thing and we want that. But this losing 1/3rd of my total levels because the fireball on a Red Slaad does 5 times the damage of a fireball from a Elf conjurer and there is not way for me to know that and I was one shotted, seems, you know, kind of stupid in a game whose main purpose is to heavily invest in a character for months and months of time played." The answer to this was "Shut up, the world needs to mean something!".
In general on some level the various developers have known all along that the desenting players in MUDs were right. The real problem is no one has come up with an implementation to satisfy the critique. So they tell people to shut up because they don't have a good answer.
Yeah MUDs and therefore EQ had many mechanics similar to survival games. And they never did fit right. They WERE however there for a reason.
It may be the case that until someone comes up with a death mechanic that makes sense we are stuck with some sort of "harsh death penalty" (I still can't help but laugh at EQ's version of harsh, its so pathetic).
In survival games and roguelikes harsh death penalties makes sense. They often have the harshest of all; perma-death. But you have to accept that perma-death is the absolute antithesis of character investment. They literally cannot mutually co-exist. So the more you gravitate a game towards character progression and investment the more you have to make sure that this is not the center point of you game.
Thank you for good read OP and others, this thread was just the distraction I needed to break vicious cycle of work-related thoughts.
I never played EQ so I have no opinion on that game, so from OP's (and others) posts:
@nilde:
This should be the a mission statement or quoted, "Those which make you feel like you aren't just playing another game, but actually entering another world."
So much of THIS in my dreamgame !
I think achieving this would mean almost all things OP mentioned:
* slow travel
* challenging questing
Challenging is a slippery slope here: I came to MMO's from puzzlegames, played all I found and I'm still playing all and every one of those I can get my hands on. So really, big arrow pointing eastwest and order to get 8 zhevra hooves isn't really challenging if you don't have to think what you're doing. And maybe, if finding and killing them would be a challenge, those poor thingys could all have four hooves and not just every Xth of them one hoof.
I woudn't put actual puzzlequests out of equation either: TSW has shown it can be done. Yes, yes, there will be guides but not reading those guides is an actual choice which woudn't ruin anything from anyone.
An other idea I'd borrow from TSW too: multipart quests and no need to actually return the quests to questgivers: in fantasysetting this could be done by messengers (owls, pidgeon's, even NPC) and in Sci-fi "Beam me up Scotty" style ofc
.
It would also librate those poor questgivers from their stagnant lives to be free to roam around.
* Vast open world
* Interesting group quests
* Way to keep "lowerlvl" areas alive
I think this is pretty much the crucial thing: after the first rush those areas will come emptier and emptier (think of all the measures WoW has taken to bring some life to lower level zones). If areas become void of players, newcomers can't do group content.
So maybe:
- Higher "level" would need for example materials from those zones ? I think it is awful waste to create all those diffrent spawning points for materials, just to be used for a very short time to level professions. Why coudn't higher level gear need a mix of diffrent level materials ?
- Skill ? Gear ? scaling, so that you woudn't be on a godmode when returning to those lower areas.
Not so much needed imho:
Harsher deathpenalties: if the game is challenging enough, there should be no need.
And last: to @Axehilt
I can only promise you that the time I spend leveling slowly, exploring slowly, questing slowly is not away from my family, my employer, my goverment and not even from you. Believe me: I even dare to walk slowly IRL at times.
Also, you've forgotten something: some of the inventions you don't even pay any attention to in your everyday life are the result of the people who dared to think diffrently. Talking (and maybe dreaming) about someone developing a slow game isn't even nearly as dearing or inventive as was getting a patent for the idea of a mobile phone at 1917 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Tigerstedt ).
And thanks for the laugh: I pictured myself on "Gotta Love Fast Travel" bootcamp, doing exercises with A Grim Sarge, singing something that rhymes with "Fast travel" and "Don't waste time".
I'm a little unclear. Are you disagreeing with me? Because you admitted you sometimes walk slowly.
Cars are fast travel. You admitted you walk slowly even though fast travel exists. Clearly cars haven't deprived you of that experience.
Being inventive is great of course, but we're essentially talking about people who want to un-invent cars.
Bootcamp implies a lack of freedom. When you don't have a car, you must slow-travel (no freedom.) With a car, you have the freedom to choose.
Consider also the fact that if you want to go hiking at that nice forested mountain with the awesome waterfall, that you probably decided to use a car to fast-travel to the mountain first. Your time was too valuable to walk all the way there, of course.
This is all the same as everything I've said the whole thread. Slow-travel-only is simply a bad design.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A lot of people played it. What really killed it was being rushed out of the gate and being in really bad shape for the first year it was out...turning people off to it. Especially when it was still in the subscription era and being in that horrid state it was in.
Now had it been polished and released with in better shape...I am sure it would have done great and still be thriving. In this day and age, first impressions mean a lot.