This is it on the nail head. Its all about making money hand over fist, and you don't alienate a large group of people (the unskilled more "casual" types) by making the game "hard" or unforgiving.
Just put in a difficulty slider and hard core option. Problem solved.
D3 is one of the most difficult game if you play HC greater rifts ... and yet it sold 15M+. The trick is to have options. Everyone needs a different level of challenge.
D3 is not an MMO. The multiplayer is 4 players maximum and basically just scales the numbers.
This does not make the game easier or harder. All the difficulty scalers in D3 do is make the mobs hit harder, have more HP, and consequently give more XP, better chance for loot to drop etc. The hardcore option is again, no different, all it does is make it so if you die, then thats it. How the mobs operate is still identical, the abilities the mobs use are still identical, none of this changes. Its not harder, just more unforgiving of mistakes. If they had a hardcore mode, where the mobs had new abilities that were more difficult to dodge, etc etc. That would be a different story, but they dont. Its exactly like playing the normal game, you just have to be extremely careful in how you approach a group of mobs so you dont get overwhelmed.
This absolutely under no circumstances would work in an MMO.
They did have somewhat of a similar thing to this in "hard mode" dungeons and "hard mode" raids, but guess what, the casual whiners complained about that, because the elitist raiders got better loot to lord over the casual peasents, and blah blah.
You literally can't win with casuals, you make the content easy enough for them, and they complain about a lack of content, you make it harder or take longer or whatever, and they complain about asian grindfests. Its literally a lose/lose proposition.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
If you claim mmo's require no skill, I would argue you are not playing them right.. Or lets say playing them to theirs and yours full potential. The point of mmo is not to win or loose, it is to play and experience. You can certainly play putting in very little efford and still progressin a mmo, as opposed to other types of games where you need a specific minimum of performance to complete a level or similar.
Regardless of how you view the state of todays mmo, becomming one of the top players (whatever that means in various games) will require skill and determination to aquire said skill. You may say but it require no skill to push 4 buttons in sequence, but even that simple task may contain skill.. Timing, learning the combo, getting and knowing which gear that optimize that combo, and various optimizations of time, mana, etc. With mmo skill is often to optimize performance, which in the end may mean beating a ifficult encounter, or beating it the first time instead of the tenth time.
Now the problem is developers don't want to create content only a few will see, so they make it too easy to reach all of it, only creating harder settings of the same content. This makes content boring and performing aka being skillful not very rewarding. One problem here is developers put too much focus (and money) into heavily designed story content, so that they are forced to make it widely available as to be financially viable.. The solution is as I view it, to focus on gameplay mechanics as content instead of stories.. This is what most older games did (of all genres).
Oh yeah OP comment about eq requiring little skill because the demands were lower back then.. On the contrary, I have found no game where player skill has ever had a more direct consequence for your success or failure, on so many levels. No mmo I have ever played presented me with such a variety of tactical possibilities to optimize performance - knowing these things, performing them in cooperation with others, changing as situations change.. Litterally takes years to master. You can group with players who played eq for years and learn or teach new detail about a situation or mechanic. Eq is probably about 10 times more advanced than any other mmo I have played, and that is because of the sheer amount of combat elements combined with variety of situations and class combinations, knowledge, map variations, mob types.. And I could go on. If you played eq and miised all this, you should really pay more attention to detail in games.
This is it on the nail head. Its all about making money hand over fist, and you don't alienate a large group of people (the unskilled more "casual" types) by making the game "hard" or unforgiving.
Just put in a difficulty slider and hard core option. Problem solved.
D3 is one of the most difficult game if you play HC greater rifts ... and yet it sold 15M+. The trick is to have options. Everyone needs a different level of challenge.
D3 is not an MMO. The multiplayer is 4 players maximum and basically just scales the numbers.
Close enough. Essentially the gameplay is no different than instanced dungeons of 4.
And while it scales the numbers .. for everyone who has end game gear, some find good strategy & builds to run GR 59 and some can never go beyond 50.
And whether D3 does it by scaling the numbers or other mean is irrelevant .. it is hard. And it works.
What you call "skill" was mostly a matter of "time".
I would argue that having patience is a skill......no?
no.
And why would anyone need patience to play games? We are talking about entertainment, not real world important stuff.
I will be the first to admit .. when it comes to entertainment, patience has little value. It does not make things more fun .. at least not for me.
Well that might be so but I wasn't really talking that you need patience to have fun now did I.
No, you just said something to say something. It had no relevance just like your last comment. You shouldn't need patience in order to enjoy yourself in a game. This isn't 1999 and genre has evolved past me grind 200 mobs and sitting for 5 minutes waiting to regenerate health.
There is also a distinct difference between time spent in game in order to progress and having patience.
and the point is that games need to be fun to its audience right from the start, with nothing (like down-time) to sit in between.
That downtime is important to some gamers who use it as an opportunity to socialize. Not everyone is interested in MMORPGs that are focused on never-ending spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat.
This is it on the nail head. Its all about making money hand over fist, and you don't alienate a large group of people (the unskilled more "casual" types) by making the game "hard" or unforgiving.
Just put in a difficulty slider and hard core option. Problem solved.
D3 is one of the most difficult game if you play HC greater rifts ... and yet it sold 15M+. The trick is to have options. Everyone needs a different level of challenge.
D3 is not an MMO. The multiplayer is 4 players maximum and basically just scales the numbers.
Close enough. Essentially the gameplay is no different than instanced dungeons of 4.
And while it scales the numbers .. for everyone who has end game gear, some find good strategy & builds to run GR 59 and some can never go beyond 50.
And whether D3 does it by scaling the numbers or other mean is irrelevant .. it is hard. And it works.
Close enough, huh. You might as well argue with Blizzard who themselves call it a multiplayer action adventure game and NOT a MMORPG. I've noticed your tendency to set yourself as the "authority" on game labels.
That downtime is important to some gamers who use it as an opportunity to socialize. Not everyone is interested in MMORPGs that are focused on never-ending spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat.
Obvious only to a small minority of players .. otherwise downtime would not have been eliminated from so many games.
Personally i don't play games to socialize. If i want to do that, i will go to a chat room.
That downtime is important to some gamers who use it as an opportunity to socialize. Not everyone is interested in MMORPGs that are focused on never-ending spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat.
Obvious only to a small minority of players .. otherwise downtime would not have been eliminated from so many games.
Personally i don't play games to socialize. If i want to do that, i will go to a chat room.
Indeedy. If people want to be social, you don't have to force downtime upon them.
You would just stop doing the stuff you're doing(spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat, supposedly), hang out in the nearest town and socialize.
Sometimes I feel like socializing, and when I do, I park myself in the nearest town and hit guild chat. I choose to have downtime. And I don't appreciate it being thrust upon me by an ill conceived forced downtime game mechanic. So I can imagine how annoying it would be for someone who doesn't want to goof around on guild chat or anywhere else to be stuck doing nothing due to forced downtime mechanics.
Originally posted by OhhPaigey I guess you never played WoW. Rofl.
I don't recall PVM in WoW requiring skill, it mainly required everyone you were working with to not be absolutely terrible at the game.
Link me your character and we'll see the achievements lol. Sorry, but heroic/(now mythic) requires an insane amount of skill, at least near the start of the content releasing.
WoW just has multiple difficulties so everybody can do the content, so it's funny when people say the game is easy and then they just cleared it on LFR, sorry, it isn't.
And the PvP is also some of the hardest stuff you can do in a game, ever.
I mean the bottom line in WoW is, if you want difficulty, it's there, and it always has been. If you want to avoid every part of the game that is difficult, and then say the game is easy, you're just stupid.
I have to agree with this. A lot of people judge WoW's difficulty based on it's leveling and normal dungeons. Their mythic encounters and challenge modes are quite difficult. They become "easy" for those who have it on farm or until blizzard nerfs the content. I also find it amusing these same people never link their achievements.
Originally posted by OhhPaigey I guess you never played WoW. Rofl.
I don't recall PVM in WoW requiring skill, it mainly required everyone you were working with to not be absolutely terrible at the game.
Link me your character and we'll see the achievements lol. Sorry, but heroic/(now mythic) requires an insane amount of skill, at least near the start of the content releasing.
WoW just has multiple difficulties so everybody can do the content, so it's funny when people say the game is easy and then they just cleared it on LFR, sorry, it isn't.
And the PvP is also some of the hardest stuff you can do in a game, ever.
I mean the bottom line in WoW is, if you want difficulty, it's there, and it always has been. If you want to avoid every part of the game that is difficult, and then say the game is easy, you're just stupid.
I have to agree with this. A lot of people judge WoW's difficulty based on it's leveling and normal dungeons. Their mythic encounters and challenge modes are quite difficult. They become "easy" for those who have it on farm or until blizzard nerfs the content. I also find it amusing these same people never link their achievements.
I agree, also if something mainly required everyone you were working with to not be absolutely terrible at the game, wouldn't that mean they needed some kind skills to actually be good at the game?
I would have to disagree about EQ being easy. The combat was simplistic but you had to make tough choices about what spells you on your hotbar. The other thing about EQ that most folks seem to forget.
There was no video guides on how to beat a raid and there was no one set way.. Guilds had to figure it out as a 30 man raid team. There was no voice chat. Once a Guild did figure out a way they told no one and kept it to them self. EQ was a first come first serve raid thing. and if you failed there was a second raid waiting for that and would jump right in.
That downtime is important to some gamers who use it as an opportunity to socialize. Not everyone is interested in MMORPGs that are focused on never-ending spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat.
Obvious only to a small minority of players .. otherwise downtime would not have been eliminated from so many games.
Personally i don't play games to socialize. If i want to do that, i will go to a chat room.
Indeedy. If people want to be social, you don't have to force downtime upon them.
You would just stop doing the stuff you're doing(spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat, supposedly), hang out in the nearest town and socialize.
Sometimes I feel like socializing, and when I do, I park myself in the nearest town and hit guild chat. I choose to have downtime. And I don't appreciate it being thrust upon me by an ill conceived forced downtime game mechanic. So I can imagine how annoying it would be for someone who doesn't want to goof around on guild chat or anywhere else to be stuck doing nothing due to forced downtime mechanics.
Exactly.
And given almost all online games have chat channels ... if one wants to socialize, you can always just stop & chat.
This is it on the nail head. Its all about making money hand over fist, and you don't alienate a large group of people (the unskilled more "casual" types) by making the game "hard" or unforgiving.
Just put in a difficulty slider and hard core option. Problem solved.
D3 is one of the most difficult game if you play HC greater rifts ... and yet it sold 15M+. The trick is to have options. Everyone needs a different level of challenge.
D3 is not an MMO. The multiplayer is 4 players maximum and basically just scales the numbers.
Close enough. Essentially the gameplay is no different than instanced dungeons of 4.
And while it scales the numbers .. for everyone who has end game gear, some find good strategy & builds to run GR 59 and some can never go beyond 50.
And whether D3 does it by scaling the numbers or other mean is irrelevant .. it is hard. And it works.
Im gonna hafta disagree with you on the "hard" part. I have a firebird's wizard who i got into the low 40's GR's before getting bored and have a crusader in the late 40's GR's and its starting to get boring.
IMO number scaling doesn't make it "hard" just more unforgiving of mistakes. I guess we could argue as to what defines hard, but to me getting killed by the random number generator isnt hard.
In high level GR's what kills you is all based on if the elite pack gets a certain combination of abilities. For my wizard them having jailer and something like molten or bombardment was usually a guaranteed death.
While i agree with you that as far as dungeons go it is a decent comparison, i still maintain its not a great comparison.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
This is it on the nail head. Its all about making money hand over fist, and you don't alienate a large group of people (the unskilled more "casual" types) by making the game "hard" or unforgiving.
Just put in a difficulty slider and hard core option. Problem solved.
D3 is one of the most difficult game if you play HC greater rifts ... and yet it sold 15M+. The trick is to have options. Everyone needs a different level of challenge.
D3 is not an MMO. The multiplayer is 4 players maximum and basically just scales the numbers.
Close enough. Essentially the gameplay is no different than instanced dungeons of 4.
And while it scales the numbers .. for everyone who has end game gear, some find good strategy & builds to run GR 59 and some can never go beyond 50.
And whether D3 does it by scaling the numbers or other mean is irrelevant .. it is hard. And it works.
Im gonna hafta disagree with you on the "hard" part. I have a firebird's wizard who i got into the low 40's GR's before getting bored and have a crusader in the late 40's GR's and its starting to get boring.
IMO number scaling doesn't make it "hard" just more unforgiving of mistakes. I guess we could argue as to what defines hard, but to me getting killed by the random number generator isnt hard.
In high level GR's what kills you is all based on if the elite pack gets a certain combination of abilities. For my wizard them having jailer and something like molten or bombardment was usually a guaranteed death.
While i agree with you that as far as dungeons go it is a decent comparison, i still maintain its not a great comparison.
well .. fireball wiz is for the previous patch .. now there are more variations, several tal rasha based builds.
And when you say it is not hard .. and yet there are those, with basically the same end-game selection of gear, can do GR 59 (that is the highest a wiz can do now).
And as you say it is more "unforgiving of mistakes. Isn't NOT making mistakes a challenge of its own? Plus there is a meta game that some are doing it with melee, some with range. And while there is some range ... everyone is facing the same range. How can you explain why the good players can go up to almost GR 60, and most (like me, i admit i am not a top player) can barely go to 50?
And why is it not a great comparison to instanced small group dungeon gameplay that is so popular in many MMOs. Aside from a difference in combat mechanics (which many MMO can learn from D3), where is the difference?
Originally posted by OhhPaigey I guess you never played WoW. Rofl.
I don't recall PVM in WoW requiring skill, it mainly required everyone you were working with to not be absolutely terrible at the game.
Link me your character and we'll see the achievements lol. Sorry, but heroic/(now mythic) requires an insane amount of skill, at least near the start of the content releasing.
WoW just has multiple difficulties so everybody can do the content, so it's funny when people say the game is easy and then they just cleared it on LFR, sorry, it isn't.
And the PvP is also some of the hardest stuff you can do in a game, ever.
I mean the bottom line in WoW is, if you want difficulty, it's there, and it always has been. If you want to avoid every part of the game that is difficult, and then say the game is easy, you're just stupid.
I have to agree with this. A lot of people judge WoW's difficulty based on it's leveling and normal dungeons. Their mythic encounters and challenge modes are quite difficult. They become "easy" for those who have it on farm or until blizzard nerfs the content. I also find it amusing these same people never link their achievements.
Big surprise, WoW fanbois defending the first dumbed down easy mode clone designed for those that couldn't cut it in EQ claiming WoW has difficulty in it. I can't link a character to show my bloated accomplishments because I can't stand the game. I never could. I fell asleep in raids because there was no risk, no skill needed, and just plain boring for me. A better question that many fanbois avoid is how good were you in EQ prior to WoWs release? Let me guess, neither of you ever were in a good raiding guild in EQ or never played. WoW was probably your first MMO? Nothing wrong with that, but don't claim WoW has always had difficulty in it if you never played EQ or UO prior to WoWs release.
Heroic and Mythic content are probably harder than regular content, but if all Blizzard has done is raise mob HP and damage output while lowering reuse timers and spawn times for mobs then that isn't an indication of skill if you beat it. Get geared and survive, there is no skill there. Remove telegraphs, block addons telling you what to do and when, force the players to learn what happens when animation X starts and then maybe. Nah, that didn't equate to skill in EQ either.
Sad truth is MMOs don't and really never have required skill. Key mapping and muscle memory or understanding when and how to employ specifics abilities and arranging them together for quicker clicking are all that is needed. That isn't skill, it's common sense. Now just use the best addon and bam, a brain dead monkey in cryogenic sleep with no arms can be a top raider.
PvP is the closest thing to requiring skill in an MMO, but figure out the boundaries of the design and... That isn't skill. The stupid bunny hop comes to mind. Skill? No. Stupid design? Oh yes.
Heroic and Mythic content are probably harder than regular content, but if all Blizzard has done is raise mob HP and damage output while lowering reuse timers and spawn times for mobs then that isn't an indication of skill if you beat it. Get geared and survive, there is no skill there. Remove telegraphs, block addons telling you what to do and when, force the players to learn what happens when animation X starts and then maybe. Nah, that didn't equate to skill in EQ either.
Lol .. isn't that what all RPGs are about ... get geared and survive?
If you think scaling HP & damage is not making content harder ... go try to beat the scaled up content.
There really isn't much aside from that .. because if you go back to EQ and all the HP & damage are scaled down by 1/10, content will be easy too.
We are not talking about intellectual games like chess here. The best way to make combat interesting is to add in physics sim, and action combat .. so players need to be on their toes and execute tactics. But even with all that, it is still about scaling numbers.
Originally posted by OhhPaigey I guess you never played WoW. Rofl.
I don't recall PVM in WoW requiring skill, it mainly required everyone you were working with to not be absolutely terrible at the game.
Link me your character and we'll see the achievements lol. Sorry, but heroic/(now mythic) requires an insane amount of skill, at least near the start of the content releasing.
WoW just has multiple difficulties so everybody can do the content, so it's funny when people say the game is easy and then they just cleared it on LFR, sorry, it isn't.
And the PvP is also some of the hardest stuff you can do in a game, ever.
I mean the bottom line in WoW is, if you want difficulty, it's there, and it always has been. If you want to avoid every part of the game that is difficult, and then say the game is easy, you're just stupid.
I have to agree with this. A lot of people judge WoW's difficulty based on it's leveling and normal dungeons. Their mythic encounters and challenge modes are quite difficult. They become "easy" for those who have it on farm or until blizzard nerfs the content. I also find it amusing these same people never link their achievements.
Big surprise, WoW fanbois defending the first dumbed down easy mode clone designed for those that couldn't cut it in EQ claiming WoW has difficulty in it. I can't link a character to show my bloated accomplishments because I can't stand the game. I never could. I fell asleep in raids because there was no risk, no skill needed, and just plain boring for me. A better question that many fanbois avoid is how good were you in EQ prior to WoWs release? Let me guess, neither of you ever were in a good raiding guild in EQ or never played. WoW was probably your first MMO? Nothing wrong with that, but don't claim WoW has always had difficulty in it if you never played EQ or UO prior to WoWs release.
Heroic and Mythic content are probably harder than regular content, but if all Blizzard has done is raise mob HP and damage output while lowering reuse timers and spawn times for mobs then that isn't an indication of skill if you beat it. Get geared and survive, there is no skill there. Remove telegraphs, block addons telling you what to do and when, force the players to learn what happens when animation X starts and then maybe. Nah, that didn't equate to skill in EQ either.
Sad truth is MMOs don't and really never have required skill. Key mapping and muscle memory or understanding when and how to employ specifics abilities and arranging them together for quicker clicking are all that is needed. That isn't skill, it's common sense. Now just use the best addon and bam, a brain dead monkey in cryogenic sleep with no arms can be a top raider.
PvP is the closest thing to requiring skill in an MMO, but figure out the boundaries of the design and... That isn't skill. The stupid bunny hop comes to mind. Skill? No. Stupid design? Oh yes.
You just proved my point. If you don't know what you're talking about, then don't respond with this condescending attitude.
As for the 2nd highlight.. that applies to almost every competitive sport, or even puzzles and algorithms. It's not about common sense at all. It's about practicing and honing your skills. It's about the unpredictability of the events and learning to apply your knowledge to overcome the challenge. Granted, it's a bit more predictable in MMOs, but synergy with guild members is practiced until they overcome the challenge. Get back to me when you solve problems in set theory, mathematical logic, and algorithms.. just by using "common sense". Or let me know when you win your next superbowl or world cup series without practicing with teammates.
Comments
D3 is not an MMO. The multiplayer is 4 players maximum and basically just scales the numbers.
This does not make the game easier or harder. All the difficulty scalers in D3 do is make the mobs hit harder, have more HP, and consequently give more XP, better chance for loot to drop etc. The hardcore option is again, no different, all it does is make it so if you die, then thats it. How the mobs operate is still identical, the abilities the mobs use are still identical, none of this changes. Its not harder, just more unforgiving of mistakes. If they had a hardcore mode, where the mobs had new abilities that were more difficult to dodge, etc etc. That would be a different story, but they dont. Its exactly like playing the normal game, you just have to be extremely careful in how you approach a group of mobs so you dont get overwhelmed.
This absolutely under no circumstances would work in an MMO.
They did have somewhat of a similar thing to this in "hard mode" dungeons and "hard mode" raids, but guess what, the casual whiners complained about that, because the elitist raiders got better loot to lord over the casual peasents, and blah blah.
You literally can't win with casuals, you make the content easy enough for them, and they complain about a lack of content, you make it harder or take longer or whatever, and they complain about asian grindfests. Its literally a lose/lose proposition.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
If you claim mmo's require no skill, I would argue you are not playing them right.. Or lets say playing them to theirs and yours full potential. The point of mmo is not to win or loose, it is to play and experience. You can certainly play putting in very little efford and still progressin a mmo, as opposed to other types of games where you need a specific minimum of performance to complete a level or similar.
Regardless of how you view the state of todays mmo, becomming one of the top players (whatever that means in various games) will require skill and determination to aquire said skill. You may say but it require no skill to push 4 buttons in sequence, but even that simple task may contain skill.. Timing, learning the combo, getting and knowing which gear that optimize that combo, and various optimizations of time, mana, etc. With mmo skill is often to optimize performance, which in the end may mean beating a ifficult encounter, or beating it the first time instead of the tenth time.
Now the problem is developers don't want to create content only a few will see, so they make it too easy to reach all of it, only creating harder settings of the same content. This makes content boring and performing aka being skillful not very rewarding. One problem here is developers put too much focus (and money) into heavily designed story content, so that they are forced to make it widely available as to be financially viable.. The solution is as I view it, to focus on gameplay mechanics as content instead of stories.. This is what most older games did (of all genres).
Oh yeah OP comment about eq requiring little skill because the demands were lower back then.. On the contrary, I have found no game where player skill has ever had a more direct consequence for your success or failure, on so many levels. No mmo I have ever played presented me with such a variety of tactical possibilities to optimize performance - knowing these things, performing them in cooperation with others, changing as situations change.. Litterally takes years to master. You can group with players who played eq for years and learn or teach new detail about a situation or mechanic. Eq is probably about 10 times more advanced than any other mmo I have played, and that is because of the sheer amount of combat elements combined with variety of situations and class combinations, knowledge, map variations, mob types.. And I could go on. If you played eq and miised all this, you should really pay more attention to detail in games.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Close enough. Essentially the gameplay is no different than instanced dungeons of 4.
And while it scales the numbers .. for everyone who has end game gear, some find good strategy & builds to run GR 59 and some can never go beyond 50.
And whether D3 does it by scaling the numbers or other mean is irrelevant .. it is hard. And it works.
That downtime is important to some gamers who use it as an opportunity to socialize. Not everyone is interested in MMORPGs that are focused on never-ending spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat.
Close enough, huh. You might as well argue with Blizzard who themselves call it a multiplayer action adventure game and NOT a MMORPG. I've noticed your tendency to set yourself as the "authority" on game labels.
Obvious only to a small minority of players .. otherwise downtime would not have been eliminated from so many games.
Personally i don't play games to socialize. If i want to do that, i will go to a chat room.
Indeedy. If people want to be social, you don't have to force downtime upon them.
You would just stop doing the stuff you're doing(spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat, supposedly), hang out in the nearest town and socialize.
Sometimes I feel like socializing, and when I do, I park myself in the nearest town and hit guild chat. I choose to have downtime. And I don't appreciate it being thrust upon me by an ill conceived forced downtime game mechanic. So I can imagine how annoying it would be for someone who doesn't want to goof around on guild chat or anywhere else to be stuck doing nothing due to forced downtime mechanics.
I have to agree with this. A lot of people judge WoW's difficulty based on it's leveling and normal dungeons. Their mythic encounters and challenge modes are quite difficult. They become "easy" for those who have it on farm or until blizzard nerfs the content. I also find it amusing these same people never link their achievements.
I agree, also if something mainly required everyone you were working with to not be absolutely terrible at the game, wouldn't that mean they needed some kind skills to actually be good at the game?
I would have to disagree about EQ being easy. The combat was simplistic but you had to make tough choices about what spells you on your hotbar. The other thing about EQ that most folks seem to forget.
There was no video guides on how to beat a raid and there was no one set way.. Guilds had to figure it out as a 30 man raid team. There was no voice chat. Once a Guild did figure out a way they told no one and kept it to them self. EQ was a first come first serve raid thing. and if you failed there was a second raid waiting for that and would jump right in.
Exactly.
And given almost all online games have chat channels ... if one wants to socialize, you can always just stop & chat.
Im gonna hafta disagree with you on the "hard" part. I have a firebird's wizard who i got into the low 40's GR's before getting bored and have a crusader in the late 40's GR's and its starting to get boring.
IMO number scaling doesn't make it "hard" just more unforgiving of mistakes. I guess we could argue as to what defines hard, but to me getting killed by the random number generator isnt hard.
In high level GR's what kills you is all based on if the elite pack gets a certain combination of abilities. For my wizard them having jailer and something like molten or bombardment was usually a guaranteed death.
While i agree with you that as far as dungeons go it is a decent comparison, i still maintain its not a great comparison.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
well .. fireball wiz is for the previous patch .. now there are more variations, several tal rasha based builds.
And when you say it is not hard .. and yet there are those, with basically the same end-game selection of gear, can do GR 59 (that is the highest a wiz can do now).
And as you say it is more "unforgiving of mistakes. Isn't NOT making mistakes a challenge of its own? Plus there is a meta game that some are doing it with melee, some with range. And while there is some range ... everyone is facing the same range. How can you explain why the good players can go up to almost GR 60, and most (like me, i admit i am not a top player) can barely go to 50?
And why is it not a great comparison to instanced small group dungeon gameplay that is so popular in many MMOs. Aside from a difference in combat mechanics (which many MMO can learn from D3), where is the difference?
Big surprise, WoW fanbois defending the first dumbed down easy mode clone designed for those that couldn't cut it in EQ claiming WoW has difficulty in it. I can't link a character to show my bloated accomplishments because I can't stand the game. I never could. I fell asleep in raids because there was no risk, no skill needed, and just plain boring for me. A better question that many fanbois avoid is how good were you in EQ prior to WoWs release? Let me guess, neither of you ever were in a good raiding guild in EQ or never played. WoW was probably your first MMO? Nothing wrong with that, but don't claim WoW has always had difficulty in it if you never played EQ or UO prior to WoWs release.
Heroic and Mythic content are probably harder than regular content, but if all Blizzard has done is raise mob HP and damage output while lowering reuse timers and spawn times for mobs then that isn't an indication of skill if you beat it. Get geared and survive, there is no skill there. Remove telegraphs, block addons telling you what to do and when, force the players to learn what happens when animation X starts and then maybe. Nah, that didn't equate to skill in EQ either.
Sad truth is MMOs don't and really never have required skill. Key mapping and muscle memory or understanding when and how to employ specifics abilities and arranging them together for quicker clicking are all that is needed. That isn't skill, it's common sense. Now just use the best addon and bam, a brain dead monkey in cryogenic sleep with no arms can be a top raider.
PvP is the closest thing to requiring skill in an MMO, but figure out the boundaries of the design and... That isn't skill. The stupid bunny hop comes to mind. Skill? No. Stupid design? Oh yes.
Lol .. isn't that what all RPGs are about ... get geared and survive?
If you think scaling HP & damage is not making content harder ... go try to beat the scaled up content.
There really isn't much aside from that .. because if you go back to EQ and all the HP & damage are scaled down by 1/10, content will be easy too.
We are not talking about intellectual games like chess here. The best way to make combat interesting is to add in physics sim, and action combat .. so players need to be on their toes and execute tactics. But even with all that, it is still about scaling numbers.
You just proved my point. If you don't know what you're talking about, then don't respond with this condescending attitude.
As for the 2nd highlight.. that applies to almost every competitive sport, or even puzzles and algorithms. It's not about common sense at all. It's about practicing and honing your skills. It's about the unpredictability of the events and learning to apply your knowledge to overcome the challenge. Granted, it's a bit more predictable in MMOs, but synergy with guild members is practiced until they overcome the challenge. Get back to me when you solve problems in set theory, mathematical logic, and algorithms.. just by using "common sense". Or let me know when you win your next superbowl or world cup series without practicing with teammates.