That's reason why i don't bother anymore with mmo's and just play solo RPG'S.
Some modern MMOs can be enjoyed as solo RPGs. There is no need to avoid them just because some sites call them MMOs.
Though the compromises needed to make an MMO can be detrimental to the RPG game aspect.
A lot of folks would be real happy with solo style RPGs with co-op gameplay. That doesn't offer the monetization that an MMO format can bring though.
Well, obviously my statement only applies (hence "some") on a case to case basis. There are those games where the MMO aspect is pretty weak (say Marvel Heroes) and most of it can be played as a solo, or co-op game. And in those cases, the MMO-ness really does not detract from the solo game play that much.
This has become a generational thing now. MmoRPG's started to become a big thing 18+ years ago. It has NOTHING to do with graphics as we all adjust to the ever growing technological progression. Those games were different than most of today. You either know the reasons why games have changes or you don't ... I won't rehash them here as I have written many long posts about this already and this forum as been swamped with such threads as well.
The core reason why discussing this topic is a difficult one is the same reason why a 40+ year old doesn't hang out with 15-25 year old friends or have many meaningful discussion with them: the difference in life experience. If one does they are mentally and emotionally stunted ... yet everyone on message boards blindly thinks everyone is the same. So much so it appears to almost be a taboo to even mention age difference. Age is a difference. It always has been. It is the entire reason why parents raise and mentor their young. It is the reason why every society's leadership on Earth is filled with aged people. EXPERIENCE.
Most here have never played old school mmos during their prime. If they have played them later it is when their graphics and game play mechanics have become aged. By definition this means those experiences are different. The only players who can enter an old school discussion and understand all angles of the conversion are those old enough to have played those games AND ALSO old enough during that time to have played at a maturity level of an adult. Otherwise you are retelling stories of your childhood which are too narrow a viewpoint to compare to adult experiences. This all means very, very few of us on these boards are capable of approaching this subject with fully adult level social experience.
I played my first mmo (Asheron's Call ... a game with no 36 hour boss camping so don't think all old school games are the same) when I was 27 or 28 years old. If you think my social experience in that game was the same as someone playing Wow in 2005 when they were a teenager you are out of your mind with delusions. This means that when I played Wow in 2005 I was 34 years old. I was already on my second career and wrapping up my sports career as well. I had been to college twice, lost count of how many girlfriends I had had and been through so many ups and downs in my life that they had now become a blur and I was also attempting to start a real family. The reality of the real world was hitting me hard. ALL of this is impossible for a teenager to grasp until they also have experience all of it.
The point to all of this is that WHY we play these games may be the same but WHAT we expect out of such social games is entirely different depending on how much life experience you have. All those things you find important in your teens and even into your 20's is entirely different when you get older ... and I can say this a million times are you won't understand it until you get older.
So lets spell this out: Old School games are an adult experience from a time not everyone on this forum was an adult in. You CANNOT understand our viewpoint because you never lived it. It can be further argued that most of the games released over the last 7+ years have not had anywhere near the social demands on it's players as old school games. This further divides everyone's views on this subject. Compare this to the changing real world of fast food, cell phones and convenience and you further strip expectations of social demands in mmos with newer generations. They simply cannot understand old school views because, again, they have not experience it ... and may never will if wrapped up into this new reality.
This reminds me of a conversion with a co-worker not long back. I mentioned how I have no real attachment to my cell phone. I can walk away from it and head out for a short time with zero worry about nobody reaching me. Such things as going to the gym is my personal time, my zen time, and phones have no place in it. She couldn't wrap her head around this. She told me in a straight face that I should go seek help because I shouldn't ever feel I should leave my phone behind. She considered it a weakness in me that I couldn't adapt to the "modern" world (I am in IT so I found this rather amusing). The conversation saddened me because I felt very, very sorry for her because this way of thinking saturated all areas of her life which was a chaotic mess of stress and anger. Her mind is fragmented and she lacks a sense of clarity and perspective. If you understand my side of the story you may very well be on your way to understanding the old school mmorpg debate.
I really don't think this hits on point.
It's also assuming young folks can't value socializing as an adult would (or remember it fondly). Who really complains about the social functions of SWG as an example? It made the game, for those both young and old.
Experiencing that stuff as an adult, if anything...makes one (in my experience) realize the shortcomings in those designs more clearly. I'd think it more likely for the young at the time, to gloss over those shortcomings in their recollections today. That's just my take on the same subject.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I want everyone to know, I was banned and I wasnt even trolling so my question is why wherent the others banned in the topic about talking to younger mmorpg players on old school mmorpg? The thread was also locked why is there some kind of censorship on this site?? As i suspected some of the mods must be corrupt prepare to be exposed.
Originally posted by Vorian7 I want everyone to know, I was banned and I wasnt even trolling so my question is why wherent the others banned in the topic about talking to younger mmorpg players on old school mmorpg? The thread was also locked why is there some kind of censorship on this site?? As i suspected some of the mods must be corrupt prepare to be exposed.
Originally posted by Vorian7 I want everyone to know, I was banned and I wasnt even trolling so my question is why wherent the others banned in the topic about talking to younger mmorpg players on old school mmorpg? The thread was also locked why is there some kind of censorship on this site?? As i suspected some of the mods must be corrupt prepare to be exposed.
The censorship on this site is insane. I can't believe the warnings i got for "trolling" for giving an opinion. It is absolute BS. I can't stand it
That's reason why i don't bother anymore with mmo's and just play solo RPG'S.
Some modern MMOs can be enjoyed as solo RPGs. There is no need to avoid them just because some sites call them MMOs.
Though the compromises needed to make an MMO can be detrimental to the RPG game aspect.
A lot of folks would be real happy with solo style RPGs with co-op gameplay. That doesn't offer the monetization that an MMO format can bring though.
Man that's kinda all I really want too. I'd love to play a 2 person co-op of a game like skyrim or something with my brother just out there doing shit together.
Originally posted by Vorian7 I want everyone to know, I was banned and I wasnt even trolling so my question is why wherent the others banned in the topic about talking to younger mmorpg players on old school mmorpg? The thread was also locked why is there some kind of censorship on this site?? As i suspected some of the mods must be corrupt prepare to be exposed.
Some times it comes down to this :
They just don't like you !
You cant make up rules and abuse them yourself, god forbid I have an opinion.
Originally posted by Vorian7 I want everyone to know, I was banned and I wasnt even trolling so my question is why wherent the others banned in the topic about talking to younger mmorpg players on old school mmorpg? The thread was also locked why is there some kind of censorship on this site?? As i suspected some of the mods must be corrupt prepare to be exposed.
Some times it comes down to this :
They just don't like you !
You cant make up rules and abuse them yourself, god forbid I have an opinion.
Originally posted by Vorian7 I want everyone to know, I was banned and I wasnt even trolling so my question is why wherent the others banned in the topic about talking to younger mmorpg players on old school mmorpg? The thread was also locked why is there some kind of censorship on this site?? As i suspected some of the mods must be corrupt prepare to be exposed.
Some times it comes down to this :
They just don't like you !
You cant make up rules and abuse them yourself, god forbid I have an opinion.
Whenever anyone brings up the words " Old School ", everyone here instantly reverts back to VERY OLD mmos such as UO or Everquest 1, or DAOC, even Vanilla World of Warcraft in its deepest broken stages of how it was from day one of release.
Then they poke fun at the poster !!!!
If a newer " Old School " mmo were made, I can assure you it would not be made with 2001 graphic stick figures or extremely cartoonish world or only fetch 10 skunk tails, unless the developers are trying to code it for lower end machines.
This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
A big part of the stigma is based on the fact that oldschool MMORPGs were literally bad games. They were basically all tedious money-grabs (meaning the tedium was implemented to deliberately sell longer subscriptions.)
It wasn't until vanilla WOW (the start of new school obviously, and not part of old school) that MMORPGs began offering enough fun per hour spent.
So because those early games were timesinks which offered very low fun per hour spent (especially compared with any other genre of game), they have the stigma of being known as bad games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Whenever anyone brings up the words " Old School ", everyone here instantly reverts back to VERY OLD mmos such as UO or Everquest 1, or DAOC, even Vanilla World of Warcraft in its deepest broken stages of how it was from day one of release.
Then they poke fun at the poster !!!!
If a newer " Old School " mmo were made, I can assure you it would not be made with 2001 graphic stick figures or extremely cartoonish world or only fetch 10 skunk tails, unless the developers are trying to code it for lower end machines.
This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
A big part of the stigma is based on the fact that oldschool MMORPGs were literally bad games. They were basically all tedious money-grabs (meaning the tedium was implemented to deliberately sell longer subscriptions.)
It wasn't until vanilla WOW (the start of new school obviously, and not part of old school) that MMORPGs began offering enough fun per hour spent.
So because those early games were timesinks which offered very low fun per hour spent (especially compared with any other genre of game), they have the stigma of being known as bad games.
Woa what is up with the straight up lies here, thats like saying the beggening rpgs of the rpg genre where bad games just because there old does not make them bad, the majority of single player rpgs have some sort of grind, and questing isnt grinding, in wow the questing is far more grindy then other games ive played, if anything its the newer mmos that are money grabs and do not make mmorpgs from passion but from a pure money scam perspective.
That's reason why i don't bother anymore with mmo's and just play solo RPG'S.
Some modern MMOs can be enjoyed as solo RPGs. There is no need to avoid them just because some sites call them MMOs.
Though the compromises needed to make an MMO can be detrimental to the RPG game aspect.
A lot of folks would be real happy with solo style RPGs with co-op gameplay. That doesn't offer the monetization that an MMO format can bring though.
Man that's kinda all I really want too. I'd love to play a 2 person co-op of a game like skyrim or something with my brother just out there doing shit together.
There is nothing wrong with old school players or games. However what often happens is the old schoolers often start saying how the new games suck and the new gamers are dumb.
That's the problem - saying you like something is fine
But saying how you much better the games and players were back in the old days and then at the same time complainig about the suckiness of the current games and players - people will have a problem with that
Thats true. Its not that older games were better, because that's totally subjective, its that they were different and actually embodied the acronym MMORPG.
More often than not though, aggressive counter arguments against old school games and dismissive fallacies like nostalgia are brought up even when people talk about how different they were and why people liked those specific differences.
This has become a generational thing now. MmoRPG's started to become a big thing 18+ years ago. It has NOTHING to do with graphics as we all adjust to the ever growing technological progression. Those games were different than most of today. You either know the reasons why games have changes or you don't ... I won't rehash them here as I have written many long posts about this already and this forum as been swamped with such threads as well.
The core reason why discussing this topic is a difficult one is the same reason why a 40+ year old doesn't hang out with 15-25 year old friends or have many meaningful discussion with them: the difference in life experience. If one does they are mentally and emotionally stunted ... yet everyone on message boards blindly thinks everyone is the same. So much so it appears to almost be a taboo to even mention age difference. Age is a difference. It always has been. It is the entire reason why parents raise and mentor their young. It is the reason why every society's leadership on Earth is filled with aged people. EXPERIENCE.
Most here have never played old school mmos during their prime. If they have played them later it is when their graphics and game play mechanics have become aged. By definition this means those experiences are different. The only players who can enter an old school discussion and understand all angles of the conversion are those old enough to have played those games AND ALSO old enough during that time to have played at a maturity level of an adult. Otherwise you are retelling stories of your childhood which are too narrow a viewpoint to compare to adult experiences. This all means very, very few of us on these boards are capable of approaching this subject with fully adult level social experience.
I played my first mmo (Asheron's Call ... a game with no 36 hour boss camping so don't think all old school games are the same) when I was 27 or 28 years old. If you think my social experience in that game was the same as someone playing Wow in 2005 when they were a teenager you are out of your mind with delusions. This means that when I played Wow in 2005 I was 34 years old. I was already on my second career and wrapping up my sports career as well. I had been to college twice, lost count of how many girlfriends I had had and been through so many ups and downs in my life that they had now become a blur and I was also attempting to start a real family. The reality of the real world was hitting me hard. ALL of this is impossible for a teenager to grasp until they also have experience all of it.
The point to all of this is that WHY we play these games may be the same but WHAT we expect out of such social games is entirely different depending on how much life experience you have. All those things you find important in your teens and even into your 20's is entirely different when you get older ... and I can say this a million times are you won't understand it until you get older.
So lets spell this out: Old School games are an adult experience from a time not everyone on this forum was an adult in. You CANNOT understand our viewpoint because you never lived it. It can be further argued that most of the games released over the last 7+ years have not had anywhere near the social demands on it's players as old school games. This further divides everyone's views on this subject. Compare this to the changing real world of fast food, cell phones and convenience and you further strip expectations of social demands in mmos with newer generations. They simply cannot understand old school views because, again, they have not experience it ... and may never will if wrapped up into this new reality.
This reminds me of a conversion with a co-worker not long back. I mentioned how I have no real attachment to my cell phone. I can walk away from it and head out for a short time with zero worry about nobody reaching me. Such things as going to the gym is my personal time, my zen time, and phones have no place in it. She couldn't wrap her head around this. She told me in a straight face that I should go seek help because I shouldn't ever feel I should leave my phone behind. She considered it a weakness in me that I couldn't adapt to the "modern" world (I am in IT so I found this rather amusing). The conversation saddened me because I felt very, very sorry for her because this way of thinking saturated all areas of her life which was a chaotic mess of stress and anger. Her mind is fragmented and she lacks a sense of clarity and perspective. If you understand my side of the story you may very well be on your way to understanding the old school mmorpg debate.
Best post I've read in a long time on this site, perhaps ever. You really went straight to root issue. I especially appreciated the last paragraph.
Also, the responses to this post are lolworthy. You stripped a lot of trolls naked with this post. Both anger and embarrassment will ensue.
There are quite a few things about “Old School” that are appealing to me. Over time we acted like lemmings and just followed the crowd from one MMO to the next one just because it was new and improved. Over time we just got sucked down the road of easy mode. In the end we just had to pay for the privilege to play their game, log on and then let our computers play other computers.
We never had to talk to anybody. We never needed someone to repair our gear. We never had to ask for assistance to complete a quest. Basically everyone could do everything and did not need other people in game to actually play it.
I want my old original MMO experiences back. Make me talk to people. Bring community back in the MMO sphere.
No mailbox, No auction house, No instant travel, No do it all class, No easy mode. Period. That’s the “Old School” I want back.
Best post I've read in a long time on this site, perhaps ever. You really went straight to root issue. I especially appreciated the last paragraph.
Also, the responses to this post are lolworthy. You stripped a lot of trolls naked with this post. Both anger and embarrassment will ensue.
The replies to this will be as amusing as his co-worker's pathetic life. I can't wait.
Agreed though, hell of a post and right on the money.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"Old Schoolers" are often laughed and because they seem to forget that what they yearn for wasn't perfection.
Your answer is more about you I can assure you.
I doubt any person wanting an old school mmo is wanting perfection. At least where there are no "issues".
However, if they think that long leveling, limited fast travel, no teleporting dungeon finders and whatever else is associated with "old school" mmo's IS perfection (meaning they like this stuff) then who are you to tell them otherwise?
I have to say that those things I listed, to me are closer to perfection than not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This has become a generational thing now. MmoRPG's started to become a big thing 18+ years ago. It has NOTHING to do with graphics as we all adjust to the ever growing technological progression. Those games were different than most of today. You either know the reasons why games have changes or you don't ... I won't rehash them here as I have written many long posts about this already and this forum as been swamped with such threads as well.
The core reason why discussing this topic is a difficult one is the same reason why a 40+ year old doesn't hang out with 15-25 year old friends or have many meaningful discussion with them: the difference in life experience. If one does they are mentally and emotionally stunted ... yet everyone on message boards blindly thinks everyone is the same. So much so it appears to almost be a taboo to even mention age difference. Age is a difference. It always has been. It is the entire reason why parents raise and mentor their young. It is the reason why every society's leadership on Earth is filled with aged people. EXPERIENCE.
Most here have never played old school mmos during their prime. If they have played them later it is when their graphics and game play mechanics have become aged. By definition this means those experiences are different. The only players who can enter an old school discussion and understand all angles of the conversion are those old enough to have played those games AND ALSO old enough during that time to have played at a maturity level of an adult. Otherwise you are retelling stories of your childhood which are too narrow a viewpoint to compare to adult experiences. This all means very, very few of us on these boards are capable of approaching this subject with fully adult level social experience.
I played my first mmo (Asheron's Call ... a game with no 36 hour boss camping so don't think all old school games are the same) when I was 27 or 28 years old. If you think my social experience in that game was the same as someone playing Wow in 2005 when they were a teenager you are out of your mind with delusions. This means that when I played Wow in 2005 I was 34 years old. I was already on my second career and wrapping up my sports career as well. I had been to college twice, lost count of how many girlfriends I had had and been through so many ups and downs in my life that they had now become a blur and I was also attempting to start a real family. The reality of the real world was hitting me hard. ALL of this is impossible for a teenager to grasp until they also have experience all of it.
The point to all of this is that WHY we play these games may be the same but WHAT we expect out of such social games is entirely different depending on how much life experience you have. All those things you find important in your teens and even into your 20's is entirely different when you get older ... and I can say this a million times are you won't understand it until you get older.
So lets spell this out: Old School games are an adult experience from a time not everyone on this forum was an adult in. You CANNOT understand our viewpoint because you never lived it. It can be further argued that most of the games released over the last 7+ years have not had anywhere near the social demands on it's players as old school games. This further divides everyone's views on this subject. Compare this to the changing real world of fast food, cell phones and convenience and you further strip expectations of social demands in mmos with newer generations. They simply cannot understand old school views because, again, they have not experience it ... and may never will if wrapped up into this new reality.
This reminds me of a conversion with a co-worker not long back. I mentioned how I have no real attachment to my cell phone. I can walk away from it and head out for a short time with zero worry about nobody reaching me. Such things as going to the gym is my personal time, my zen time, and phones have no place in it. She couldn't wrap her head around this. She told me in a straight face that I should go seek help because I shouldn't ever feel I should leave my phone behind. She considered it a weakness in me that I couldn't adapt to the "modern" world (I am in IT so I found this rather amusing). The conversation saddened me because I felt very, very sorry for her because this way of thinking saturated all areas of her life which was a chaotic mess of stress and anger. Her mind is fragmented and she lacks a sense of clarity and perspective. If you understand my side of the story you may very well be on your way to understanding the old school mmorpg debate.
Best post I've read in a long time on this site, perhaps ever. You really went straight to root issue. I especially appreciated the last paragraph.
Also, the responses to this post are lolworthy. You stripped a lot of trolls naked with this post. Both anger and embarrassment will ensue.
Great posts there.
Can anyone give me an example of any game that had dungeon design better than EQ? WoW came close but nope. Rift also came close but nope. I hope for a significant experience like that again.
"Old Schoolers" are often laughed and because they seem to forget that what they yearn for wasn't perfection.
Your answer is more about you I can assure you.
I doubt any person wanting an old school mmo is wanting perfection. At least where there are no "issues".
However, if they think that long leveling, limited fast travel, no teleporting dungeon finders and whatever else is associated with "old school" mmo's IS perfection (meaning they like this stuff) then who are you to tell them otherwise?
I have to say that those things I listed, to me are closer to perfection than not.
Right. Its not that we forget it wasn't perfection, its just that it was much closer to our idea of a perfect game; or specifically, more representative of what we consider a perfect virtual world.
As much as I loved playing UO, EQ, and AC for many different reasons the real thing I miss about these "old school" games were the communities they fostered.
In each there was some level of accountability. Given the nature of group dependence in these games players were much more keen to moderate their behavior. In EQ especially a bad rep could make it hard to find a group. And in UO I could reward bad behavior by adding your head to my collection.
As games become more solo friendly more and more players behave poorly or use game channels to spout their personal issues. If its not game related I can care less about your opinions of the world, your personal biases or if your feelings were hurt. And if your not enjoying the game, just leave and spare me your negativity.
Old School, new school it doesn't matter to me. I just want to enjoy my time. When I refer to those good old days its almost always in reference to the guilds, friends and communities I miss.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
Woa what is up with the straight up lies here, thats like saying the beggening rpgs of the rpg genre where bad games just because there old does not make them bad, the majority of single player rpgs have some sort of grind, and questing isnt grinding, in wow the questing is far more grindy then other games ive played, if anything its the newer mmos that are money grabs and do not make mmorpgs from passion but from a pure money scam perspective.
I didn't say they were bad because they were old. I said old MMORPGs were bad games. (Not measured in the sense of how subjectively fun they were, but measured in the objective sense of how much depth they had and the rate of challenging decisions (gameplay) they offered.)
Don't accuse someone of lying if it's really just a failure on your part to read or understand what they've said.
The reason why they were bad games is grounded in their excessive use of timesinks (to sell subs) and the minimal amount of actual gameplay-per-hour they provided compared with other genres of the day (and later: compared with modern MMORPGs.) When you put an hour into Alpha Centauri or Q3/UT (1999 games) you were posed with a constant series of difficult decisions which challenged your skill as you struggled to work towards mastery of those games. Whereas the same hour in Asherons Call (1999) probably would be spent grinding the same mob continually, with far less variety or depth to the decision-making.
Typical quests in modern MMORPG offer a larger variety of activities, so there's potential to actually optimize how fast you progress through questing. One could argue that MMORPGs are generally bad at letting players control their rate of advancement by tackling stronger challenges, and sure I would love to have seen more of them adopt CoH's model (where the harder challenges you posed for yourself, the faster you would advance.)
Grind is subjective fun-over-time. Which is why sure you could call WOW questing grindy. But most players wouldn't feel it's more of a grind than endlessly killing the same mobs all day, of course.
Whereas a timesink is more of an objective measure of low gameplay-over-time (low decisions-per-time.) So even if you subjectively feel WOW questing is a grind, it objectively is less of a timesink than endlessly killing monsters.
MMORPGs are created to make money, but older games pursued it by deliberately watering down the experience. With little competition, they sort of got away with it. (Only sort of. After all, the excessive timesinks were one of the major factors limiting their success.) Whereas modern MMORPGs don't water down the experience, and really they couldn't because they're competing against other MMORPGs who don't either. Doesn't mean all of them create fantastic gameplay, but most of them avoid at least that particular mistake.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Old Schoolers" are often laughed and because they seem to forget that what they yearn for wasn't perfection. Mostly far from it. While so much has been lost to the progression of the genre, so much in stability and playability has been gained. But the vets tend to like to die on their hill of "IT NEVER GOT BETTER THAN *whatever game introduced them to the concept of MMOs*!!!!"
The thing is, things did get better. Other things got worse. We get laughed at because in order to incorporate the best of both the old and the new would require a budget far beyond what any developer could draw, given that the old school mechanics are factually a niche; a budget far too bloated for that niche to support. Without the polish and stability of the new, any attempt at a game will be (and has been) panned by the community. Without the old school features, we're just left with what we have now.
All that being said, the community is different than it once was. Unless you're rolling with a solid guild, being in an MMO that isn't soloable is a trying experience at best. I find myself yearning for gaming features that necessitate that old sense of community, but this plays into the "be careful what you wish for" area. Do I really want today's average MMO community to be necessary to my experience? While I wish I could say yes, I definitely do not. I'd love a community that I could answer yes to that. But no game made is going to make that magically happen.
But you ask why we get laughed at, then say MMOs aren't MMOs and then hang all your hopes on a game in development before threatening to take your ball and go home. The answer to your question seems self evident.
Maybe us old school vets (me) want something other than stability and playability in our MMO, or perhaps we see some things as more important than stability and playability, or that the price of losing some things just to attain stability and playability was too high a price.
(I am not directing my comments at your post in particular, but you brought up some very good points I desired to respond to. It is not my intention to offend.)
I can play a MMO with instability and playability being not perfect. I won't play a MMO where some of the old content and features and game design I prefer is sacrificed for stability and playability, and other new features.
I liked MMOs as they were then. I don't like them much as they are now.
I don't disagree that too much has been lost, and that I gladly tolerated choking down the occasional rage-induced stroke (and still would) when the gaming is so much fun the rest of the time. But when you're talking MMOs, you're talking markets and word of mouth and mob mentalities. Games with such issues get chewed up and shit out by this community now, despite us few who would endure some BS for the sake of fun. It's just not a sustainable business model anymore, now that the polish bar has been set where it is. Damn near every game trying to cater to this niche goes down in flames, often times due to the very instabilities we're talking about being willing to endure. That polish bar really isn't even extremely high, most MMO launches are still troubled waters these days even as far as it has come. My wait time to see what an MMO is going to be is anywhere from 6 months to a year. These days games aren't even able to stick to a pay model for more than a year post launch.
Originally posted by SquireX
Originally posted by nolf
I find myself yearning for gaming features that necessitate that old sense of community, but this plays into the "be careful what you wish for" area. Do I really want today's average MMO community to be necessary to my experience? While I wish I could say yes, I definitely do not. I'd love a community that I could answer yes to that. But no game made is going to make that magically happen.
Great comment ^
Thank you. *tips hat*
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
As much as I loved playing UO, EQ, and AC for many different reasons the real thing I miss about these "old school" games were the communities they fostered.
In each there was some level of accountability. Given the nature of group dependence in these games players were much more keen to moderate their behavior. In EQ especially a bad rep could make it hard to find a group. And in UO I could reward bad behavior by adding your head to my collection.
As games become more solo friendly more and more players behave poorly or use game channels to spout their personal issues. If its not game related I can care less about your opinions of the world, your personal biases or if your feelings were hurt. And if your not enjoying the game, just leave and spare me your negativity.
Old School, new school it doesn't matter to me. I just want to enjoy my time. When I refer to those good old days its almost always in reference to the guilds, friends and communities I miss.
Fantastic post and possibly the best post i've ever read on these forums. I share these sentiments to the T and you truly hit the nail on the head. If people cannot understand this then they truly do not understand what old school or an MMORPG even mean or were designed to be, unfortunately so many seem to be against these general rules and principles, though as time progresses i'm finding out more and more that they are a vocal minority that just tend to cry alot louder and complain under many different handles.
Though even if that isn't so the heritage of MMORPG must be carried on as it was in its glory days an experience like no other and even alot of people that complained about it then are finally realizing how it had so much right when they thought it was wrong, it's a fight, it's a struggle and it's the great interaction with others to overcome these obstacles that made the game great.
It's amazing that such a simple concept is so hard to understand.
Comments
Though the compromises needed to make an MMO can be detrimental to the RPG game aspect.
A lot of folks would be real happy with solo style RPGs with co-op gameplay. That doesn't offer the monetization that an MMO format can bring though.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Well, obviously my statement only applies (hence "some") on a case to case basis. There are those games where the MMO aspect is pretty weak (say Marvel Heroes) and most of it can be played as a solo, or co-op game. And in those cases, the MMO-ness really does not detract from the solo game play that much.
I really don't think this hits on point.
It's also assuming young folks can't value socializing as an adult would (or remember it fondly). Who really complains about the social functions of SWG as an example? It made the game, for those both young and old.
Experiencing that stuff as an adult, if anything...makes one (in my experience) realize the shortcomings in those designs more clearly. I'd think it more likely for the young at the time, to gloss over those shortcomings in their recollections today. That's just my take on the same subject.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Some times it comes down to this :
They just don't like you !
The censorship on this site is insane. I can't believe the warnings i got for "trolling" for giving an opinion. It is absolute BS. I can't stand it
Man that's kinda all I really want too. I'd love to play a 2 person co-op of a game like skyrim or something with my brother just out there doing shit together.
You cant make up rules and abuse them yourself, god forbid I have an opinion.
Sorry Vorian7....I just couldn't help it
Lol I know it wasnt you now.
A big part of the stigma is based on the fact that oldschool MMORPGs were literally bad games. They were basically all tedious money-grabs (meaning the tedium was implemented to deliberately sell longer subscriptions.)
It wasn't until vanilla WOW (the start of new school obviously, and not part of old school) that MMORPGs began offering enough fun per hour spent.
So because those early games were timesinks which offered very low fun per hour spent (especially compared with any other genre of game), they have the stigma of being known as bad games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Woa what is up with the straight up lies here, thats like saying the beggening rpgs of the rpg genre where bad games just because there old does not make them bad, the majority of single player rpgs have some sort of grind, and questing isnt grinding, in wow the questing is far more grindy then other games ive played, if anything its the newer mmos that are money grabs and do not make mmorpgs from passion but from a pure money scam perspective.
Have you tried borderland?
Thats true. Its not that older games were better, because that's totally subjective, its that they were different and actually embodied the acronym MMORPG.
More often than not though, aggressive counter arguments against old school games and dismissive fallacies like nostalgia are brought up even when people talk about how different they were and why people liked those specific differences.
Best post I've read in a long time on this site, perhaps ever. You really went straight to root issue. I especially appreciated the last paragraph.
Also, the responses to this post are lolworthy. You stripped a lot of trolls naked with this post. Both anger and embarrassment will ensue.
There are quite a few things about “Old School” that are appealing to me. Over time we acted like lemmings and just followed the crowd from one MMO to the next one just because it was new and improved. Over time we just got sucked down the road of easy mode. In the end we just had to pay for the privilege to play their game, log on and then let our computers play other computers.
We never had to talk to anybody. We never needed someone to repair our gear. We never had to ask for assistance to complete a quest. Basically everyone could do everything and did not need other people in game to actually play it.
I want my old original MMO experiences back. Make me talk to people. Bring community back in the MMO sphere.
No mailbox, No auction house, No instant travel, No do it all class, No easy mode. Period. That’s the “Old School” I want back.
Nanulak
The replies to this will be as amusing as his co-worker's pathetic life. I can't wait.
Agreed though, hell of a post and right on the money.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Your answer is more about you I can assure you.
I doubt any person wanting an old school mmo is wanting perfection. At least where there are no "issues".
However, if they think that long leveling, limited fast travel, no teleporting dungeon finders and whatever else is associated with "old school" mmo's IS perfection (meaning they like this stuff) then who are you to tell them otherwise?
I have to say that those things I listed, to me are closer to perfection than not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Great posts there.
Can anyone give me an example of any game that had dungeon design better than EQ? WoW came close but nope. Rift also came close but nope. I hope for a significant experience like that again.
Right. Its not that we forget it wasn't perfection, its just that it was much closer to our idea of a perfect game; or specifically, more representative of what we consider a perfect virtual world.
As much as I loved playing UO, EQ, and AC for many different reasons the real thing I miss about these "old school" games were the communities they fostered.
In each there was some level of accountability. Given the nature of group dependence in these games players were much more keen to moderate their behavior. In EQ especially a bad rep could make it hard to find a group. And in UO I could reward bad behavior by adding your head to my collection.
As games become more solo friendly more and more players behave poorly or use game channels to spout their personal issues. If its not game related I can care less about your opinions of the world, your personal biases or if your feelings were hurt. And if your not enjoying the game, just leave and spare me your negativity.
Old School, new school it doesn't matter to me. I just want to enjoy my time. When I refer to those good old days its almost always in reference to the guilds, friends and communities I miss.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
I didn't say they were bad because they were old. I said old MMORPGs were bad games. (Not measured in the sense of how subjectively fun they were, but measured in the objective sense of how much depth they had and the rate of challenging decisions (gameplay) they offered.)
Don't accuse someone of lying if it's really just a failure on your part to read or understand what they've said.
The reason why they were bad games is grounded in their excessive use of timesinks (to sell subs) and the minimal amount of actual gameplay-per-hour they provided compared with other genres of the day (and later: compared with modern MMORPGs.) When you put an hour into Alpha Centauri or Q3/UT (1999 games) you were posed with a constant series of difficult decisions which challenged your skill as you struggled to work towards mastery of those games. Whereas the same hour in Asherons Call (1999) probably would be spent grinding the same mob continually, with far less variety or depth to the decision-making.
Typical quests in modern MMORPG offer a larger variety of activities, so there's potential to actually optimize how fast you progress through questing. One could argue that MMORPGs are generally bad at letting players control their rate of advancement by tackling stronger challenges, and sure I would love to have seen more of them adopt CoH's model (where the harder challenges you posed for yourself, the faster you would advance.)
Grind is subjective fun-over-time. Which is why sure you could call WOW questing grindy. But most players wouldn't feel it's more of a grind than endlessly killing the same mobs all day, of course.
Whereas a timesink is more of an objective measure of low gameplay-over-time (low decisions-per-time.) So even if you subjectively feel WOW questing is a grind, it objectively is less of a timesink than endlessly killing monsters.
MMORPGs are created to make money, but older games pursued it by deliberately watering down the experience. With little competition, they sort of got away with it. (Only sort of. After all, the excessive timesinks were one of the major factors limiting their success.) Whereas modern MMORPGs don't water down the experience, and really they couldn't because they're competing against other MMORPGs who don't either. Doesn't mean all of them create fantastic gameplay, but most of them avoid at least that particular mistake.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Thank you. *tips hat*
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
I wonder if you will play old school game with this style of graphic
http://postimg.org/image/wbupdeq1t/
Fantastic post and possibly the best post i've ever read on these forums. I share these sentiments to the T and you truly hit the nail on the head. If people cannot understand this then they truly do not understand what old school or an MMORPG even mean or were designed to be, unfortunately so many seem to be against these general rules and principles, though as time progresses i'm finding out more and more that they are a vocal minority that just tend to cry alot louder and complain under many different handles.
Though even if that isn't so the heritage of MMORPG must be carried on as it was in its glory days an experience like no other and even alot of people that complained about it then are finally realizing how it had so much right when they thought it was wrong, it's a fight, it's a struggle and it's the great interaction with others to overcome these obstacles that made the game great.
It's amazing that such a simple concept is so hard to understand.