That's not exactly true, EQ and SWG can still be measured against today's games fairly easily. We can't really talk about the latter, however, EQ emu is officially legit now.
The great thing is P1999 runs about 1600+ during the day and DGC now has two new progression servers due to the demand at the same time which is only available to subscribers. In regards to measuring against today's MMOs there really isn't one that is "new" technologically speaking that is "old school" gameplay wise. There are a few in the works, which is great, but not currently full release quality.
I can tell you, using an emu server that hasn't had new content in 5 years is hardly a reliable metric. Its still the best classic experience out there, but long gone are the days when the staff communicates or patches fixes on a regular basis. Not to mention the fact that the servers are extremely top heavy, and content is way overly contested. They've needed to open additional servers for a really long time, but they just don't seem to care any more.
I'm neither a player there, or on windbreaks progression servers, yet I've never met a bigger fan of Everquest than myself. I can tell you first hand many feel the same way, and simply want a new game based on the same premise, not to play the old version for the rest of their life.
That's not exactly true, EQ and SWG can still be measured against today's games fairly easily. We can't really talk about the latter, however, EQ emu is officially legit now.
The great thing is P1999 runs about 1600+ during the day and DGC now has two new progression servers due to the demand at the same time which is only available to subscribers. In regards to measuring against today's MMOs there really isn't one that is "new" technologically speaking that is "old school" gameplay wise. There are a few in the works, which is great, but not currently full release quality.
I can tell you, using an emu server that hasn't had new content in 5 years is hardly a reliable metric. Its still the best classic experience out there, but long gone are the days when the staff communicates or patches fixes on a regular basis. Not to mention the fact that the servers are extremely top heavy, and content is way overly contested. They've needed to open additional servers for a really long time, but they just don't seem to care any more.
I'm neither a player there, or on windbreaks progression servers, yet I've never met a bigger fan of Everquest than myself. I can tell you first hand many feel the same way, and simply want a new game based on the same premise, not to play the old version for the rest of their life.
I'm referring to seeing what the game-play is like compared to new games, of course an Emu is going to lack in regard to customer care, upkeep etc... It's there for those really curious on the topic.
I tend to not get involved on the topic of player numbers and success stories, it's just too anecdotal of a topic to care much about. As they say, if you build it they will come, how many is anyone's guess.
TBH I don't even know what people really want here, it's all about feelings and "spirit", I don't know how devs design feelings or "spirit".
I personally just want a game with plenty of features like SWG, whether it's a themepark or not, totally open world or not, truly challenging or not, doesn't make much difference to me. I want the option to progress in different areas like, piloting, creature handling, bounty hunting, etc...
To me this is what we should be talking about, not who's a vet, who's new, what we hate, fellings in general etc... There's no substance in any of that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
you just typed the reason why they poke you. It's not the term old school, but all this stance "we are old we know better", really doesn't help in discussions...
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
you just typed the reason why they poke you. It's not the term old school, but all this stance "we are old we know better", really doesn't help in discussions...
I'm changing my ways.....SO LEAVE ME ALONE !!...........Only kidding about the leave me alone part. But I am changing my ways
Originally posted by Bladestrom ^^ it's a bit like being at a party where everyone is dancing and everyone is having fun, and there is one person who wanders around and around pushing people appart while shouting 'I don't parties i want to be on my own' Funny and hard to ignore
only in a real life party.
On an internet forum, one click and that person is likely invisible forever.
Whenever anyone brings up the words " Old School ", everyone here instantly reverts back to VERY OLD mmos such as UO or Everquest 1, or DAOC, even Vanilla World of Warcraft in its deepest broken stages of how it was from day one of release.
Then they poke fun at the poster !!!!
If a newer " Old School " mmo were made, I can assure you it would not be made with 2001 graphic stick figures or extremely cartoonish world or only fetch 10 skunk tails, unless the developers are trying to code it for lower end machines.
This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
Whenever anyone brings up the words " Old School ", everyone here instantly reverts back to VERY OLD mmos such as UO or Everquest 1, or DAOC, even Vanilla World of Warcraft in its deepest broken stages of how it was from day one of release.
Then they poke fun at the poster !!!!
If a newer " Old School " mmo were made, I can assure you it would not be made with 2001 graphic stick figures or extremely cartoonish world or only fetch 10 skunk tails, unless the developers are trying to code it for lower end machines.
This is a stigma that seems be attached to the words " Old School ".....The only reason I could see is posters here pick up on the word OLD and run with it.
What's up with this ?
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You know I kinda get what you're saying, however....yes, if you don't care about the narrative that's all it boils down to...Just like a shooter ultimately relies on pointing and then shooting or an RTS relies on unit selection, and then unit action... IN an RPG you start by killing the weak to work your way up to killing something greater. It's part of character growth. No matter how you break it down, just about every RPG (videogame) is going to have some element of this. In most cases, it only gets deeper if you apply yourself to it. On the surface every RPG is shallow, if that's all you experience due to a failure to gain a deeper connection, that's your take away....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
And we do need something new in the MMO scene, hope for a non Fantasy MMO because we have too many of those already.
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
And we do need something new in the MMO scene, hope for a non Fantasy MMO because we have too many of those already.
I would recommend a quick spin through his post history; you'll very quickly discover that your attempt to point him in the right direction is more futile than trying to resist the Borg.
As to your last point: hell yes! I'd be down for decade long break from Fantasy and fingers that fire colourful spells.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"Old School" is a very positive term to me. Most of my fav MMO's to this day are old school. For me old school generally means more hardcore, less casual. Like, my fav version of WoW is Vanilla. I still play Lineage 1, which is very old school and perhaps one of the grindiest (yet still most fun IMO) games ever. Hell there's even a new Lineage 1 server fixing to launch soon, which I plan on playing on:
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
No. MMOs are no longer massive.
Otherwise this place, other sites, reviewers, and industry analysis sites will not call world of tanks, a clearly NOT "massively" game, a MMO.
"MMO" really does not mean much aside from a group of arbitrary online games.
Check the game list here. Tell me how many games that are NOT massive has the letters MM in front of the "genre" column.
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
No. MMOs are no longer massive.
Otherwise this place, other sites, reviewers, and industry analysis sites will not call world of tanks, a clearly NOT "massively" game, a MMO.
"MMO" really does not mean much aside from a group of arbitrary online games.
Check the game list here. Tell me how many games that are NOT massive has the letters MM in front of the "genre" column.
Then they should call those games MO and not MMO`s, its a Multiplayer Online game not Massive so MO and not use MMO tag for those games.
And MMORPG.com is just the name of this website and they are reviewing also other MO and RPG games Singleplayer and multiplayer, but they shouldnt use the MMO tag on all their reviewed games because some arent MMO`s and some arent even MO`s at all.
So in short dont use a tag for a game that isnt that sort of game.
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
No. MMOs are no longer massive.
Otherwise this place, other sites, reviewers, and industry analysis sites will not call world of tanks, a clearly NOT "massively" game, a MMO.
"MMO" really does not mean much aside from a group of arbitrary online games.
Check the game list here. Tell me how many games that are NOT massive has the letters MM in front of the "genre" column.
Then they should call those games MO and not MMO`s, its a Multiplayer Online game not Massive so MO and not use MMO tag for those games.
And MMORPG.com is just the name of this website and they are reviewing also other MO and RPG games Singleplayer and multiplayer, but they shouldnt use the MMO tag on all their reviewed games because some arent MMO`s and some arent even MO`s at all.
So in short dont use a tag for a game that isnt that sort of game.
May be they should ... but what is the problem if they don't? It is not like no one knows that MMOs are not massive anymore.
So what if websites & reviewers use language labels for convenience, instead of for an accurate description. They won't be the first, nor the last ... and there is pretty much nothing a single person can do to affect usage of a language.
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
No. MMOs are no longer massive.
Otherwise this place, other sites, reviewers, and industry analysis sites will not call world of tanks, a clearly NOT "massively" game, a MMO.
"MMO" really does not mean much aside from a group of arbitrary online games.
Check the game list here. Tell me how many games that are NOT massive has the letters MM in front of the "genre" column.
Then they should call those games MO and not MMO`s, its a Multiplayer Online game not Massive so MO and not use MMO tag for those games.
And MMORPG.com is just the name of this website and they are reviewing also other MO and RPG games Singleplayer and multiplayer, but they shouldnt use the MMO tag on all their reviewed games because some arent MMO`s and some arent even MO`s at all.
So in short dont use a tag for a game that isnt that sort of game.
May be they should ... but what is the problem if they don't? It is not like no one knows that MMOs are not massive anymore.
So what if websites & reviewers use language labels for convenience, instead of for an accurate description. They won't be the first, nor the last ... and there is pretty much nothing a single person can do to affect usage of a language.
Because when you go to a restaurant and order Escargot, you don't expect to be given a couple of slugs in gravy.. which when you think about it, is what happens when you 'loosen' a definition to mean something entirely different.
Todays MO's are dumbed down to catch a larger playerbase. Notice i said MO and not MMO.
Most MMO's out, or in development are targeting a small player base, or niche.
Crowdfunding is a good thing, if done responsibly. Companies like EA would rather get a game out quick, unpolished, and geared towards reaping in huge lumps of cash as quick as they can...rather than taking their time with it and making a good product.
Oldschool games were more geared towards game mechanics than eye candy. Give me game mechanics any day of the week and call me Old.
All that being said, and all just my opinion, Camelot Unchained is the only game i am keeping an eye on atm. Hopefully it can catch the attention of the new breed of gamers and us old-timers can show them a thing or two about skill, not zerg.
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
No. MMOs are no longer massive.
Otherwise this place, other sites, reviewers, and industry analysis sites will not call world of tanks, a clearly NOT "massively" game, a MMO.
"MMO" really does not mean much aside from a group of arbitrary online games.
Check the game list here. Tell me how many games that are NOT massive has the letters MM in front of the "genre" column.
Then they should call those games MO and not MMO`s, its a Multiplayer Online game not Massive so MO and not use MMO tag for those games.
And MMORPG.com is just the name of this website and they are reviewing also other MO and RPG games Singleplayer and multiplayer, but they shouldnt use the MMO tag on all their reviewed games because some arent MMO`s and some arent even MO`s at all.
So in short dont use a tag for a game that isnt that sort of game.
May be they should ... but what is the problem if they don't? It is not like no one knows that MMOs are not massive anymore.
So what if websites & reviewers use language labels for convenience, instead of for an accurate description. They won't be the first, nor the last ... and there is pretty much nothing a single person can do to affect usage of a language.
Because when you go to a restaurant and order Escargot, you don't expect to be given a couple of slugs in gravy.. which when you think about it, is what happens when you 'loosen' a definition to mean something entirely different.
Now when i hear a game is a MMO, i don't expect it to be massively .. so the expectation and the label matches. What is the problem?
Oldschool games were more geared towards game mechanics than eye candy. Give me game mechanics any day of the week and call me Old.
Really? EQ has horrible combat mechanics compared to modern games like Diablo 3, or GW2, heck .. or anything.
Now horrible is subjective ... but i doubt many players will prefer the ancient EQ combat mechanics than modern games', aside from a few die hard veterans, i guess.
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
You are right about the staying power, MMos keep their players shorter and shorter time. Question is why.
Partly do I blame the bungee mentality (people who level up one character to max and then just quit), the short time to get to max and the very repetetive and uninspired endgame most MMOs have.
People might think that it is fun to level fast but when the majority either makes an alt or just quit as soon as they hit max it means something is wrong. The main part of the earliest MMOs was to level and reaching max back then actually took an effort, and not just time because it was hard and rather unforgiving. It was probably a bit too slow and when devs made it somewhat easier the players liked it. The problem is that leveling up a character in a matter of weeks or even faster means you need an even better endgame but the endgame is still what EQ had, without the effort to get there.
So in my opinion they either need to slow down leveling speed (or in a leveless game how you gain XP) or add a far better and more fun endgame. The problem is that most devs seems to think that the game needs to be even easier and faster instead which means that the players leave even faster.
MMOs shouldn't go back to how EQ was but they can't stay where they are right now either, when an average players spend 3 weeks in the game you don't get much income from them no matter what model you use. And that is why almost no western AAA developer have a MMO in the works, it is most kickstarters and a few smaller companies.
There are surely other ways to get the players stay longer and as long as they are fun. Unless something happening we will soon just have real low budget games, some Korean AAA and Final fantasy.
There are surely other ways to get the players stay longer and as long as they are fun. Unless something happening we will soon just have real low budget games, some Korean AAA and Final fantasy.
What is the problem if most players don't stay long? You only need the whales to stick around and pay.
Plus, from a player point of view, there is nothing wrong with playing a lot of short games, if that is what is fun to them.
MMOs today are NOT MMOS, plain and simple....they are something else. You could attach any word you like to what ever they are, but there not mmos.
You can poke fun at this topic all you like but EVERYONE has to be able to face that were in a decline of staying power in all games made as of the past few years.
Pantheon is my last hope. I'm keeping a loose eye on this one, very loose, because if it will have a cash shop, I'm taking my ball and bat and going home.
You are right about the staying power, MMos keep their players shorter and shorter time. Question is why.
Partly do I blame the bungee mentality (people who level up one character to max and then just quit), the short time to get to max and the very repetetive and uninspired endgame most MMOs have.
People might think that it is fun to level fast but when the majority either makes an alt or just quit as soon as they hit max it means something is wrong. The main part of the earliest MMOs was to level and reaching max back then actually took an effort, and not just time because it was hard and rather unforgiving. It was probably a bit too slow and when devs made it somewhat easier the players liked it. The problem is that leveling up a character in a matter of weeks or even faster means you need an even better endgame but the endgame is still what EQ had, without the effort to get there.
So in my opinion they either need to slow down leveling speed (or in a leveless game how you gain XP) or add a far better and more fun endgame. The problem is that most devs seems to think that the game needs to be even easier and faster instead which means that the players leave even faster.
MMOs shouldn't go back to how EQ was but they can't stay where they are right now either, when an average players spend 3 weeks in the game you don't get much income from them no matter what model you use. And that is why almost no western AAA developer have a MMO in the works, it is most kickstarters and a few smaller companies.
There are surely other ways to get the players stay longer and as long as they are fun. Unless something happening we will soon just have real low budget games, some Korean AAA and Final fantasy.
Probably because there are more games now.
As much as many people on the forums like to act how glorious old games are, the reality is when WoW is out, it steal a bunch of players from those old games.
And for me, I dont' know why mmorpg have to be about leveling. Some people like to call leveling slowly journey. Which is funny, if they care that much about leveling, they really care about the destination but not the journey. If people really care about the journey, they don't need to get stronger to enjoy the journey. That's why I love GW2's system.
You are right about the staying power, MMos keep their players shorter and shorter time. Question is why.
Partly do I blame the bungee mentality (people who level up one character to max and then just quit), the short time to get to max and the very repetetive and uninspired endgame most MMOs have.
People might think that it is fun to level fast but when the majority either makes an alt or just quit as soon as they hit max it means something is wrong. The main part of the earliest MMOs was to level and reaching max back then actually took an effort, and not just time because it was hard and rather unforgiving. It was probably a bit too slow and when devs made it somewhat easier the players liked it. The problem is that leveling up a character in a matter of weeks or even faster means you need an even better endgame but the endgame is still what EQ had, without the effort to get there.
So in my opinion they either need to slow down leveling speed (or in a leveless game how you gain XP) or add a far better and more fun endgame. The problem is that most devs seems to think that the game needs to be even easier and faster instead which means that the players leave even faster.
MMOs shouldn't go back to how EQ was but they can't stay where they are right now either, when an average players spend 3 weeks in the game you don't get much income from them no matter what model you use. And that is why almost no western AAA developer have a MMO in the works, it is most kickstarters and a few smaller companies.
There are surely other ways to get the players stay longer and as long as they are fun. Unless something happening we will soon just have real low budget games, some Korean AAA and Final fantasy.
Slowing down leveling, but also adding more to achieve during "the journey." More horizontal progression. Discovering new abilities/spells from mobs, from drops, from quests, more gear, more reasons for a variety of gear like resists, environment. Most of all, more reward from group play. Grouping takes more time, is more rewarding, and promotes the social aspect of MMOs. If the game is harder and less forgiving, people need each other, all of a sudden the casual "go, go, go" mentality turns to one of more appreciation, value on strategy, and respect of good players. Achievements suddenly have meaning, you've made friends along the way, you gain renown for your achievements, etc etc. I could go on and on as to why and how the older approach is better, but I'm sure thats enough to rustle jimmies.
You are right about the staying power, MMos keep their players shorter and shorter time. Question is why.
Partly do I blame the bungee mentality (people who level up one character to max and then just quit), the short time to get to max and the very repetetive and uninspired endgame most MMOs have.
People might think that it is fun to level fast but when the majority either makes an alt or just quit as soon as they hit max it means something is wrong. The main part of the earliest MMOs was to level and reaching max back then actually took an effort, and not just time because it was hard and rather unforgiving. It was probably a bit too slow and when devs made it somewhat easier the players liked it. The problem is that leveling up a character in a matter of weeks or even faster means you need an even better endgame but the endgame is still what EQ had, without the effort to get there.
So in my opinion they either need to slow down leveling speed (or in a leveless game how you gain XP) or add a far better and more fun endgame. The problem is that most devs seems to think that the game needs to be even easier and faster instead which means that the players leave even faster.
MMOs shouldn't go back to how EQ was but they can't stay where they are right now either, when an average players spend 3 weeks in the game you don't get much income from them no matter what model you use. And that is why almost no western AAA developer have a MMO in the works, it is most kickstarters and a few smaller companies.
There are surely other ways to get the players stay longer and as long as they are fun. Unless something happening we will soon just have real low budget games, some Korean AAA and Final fantasy.
Slowing down leveling, but also adding more to achieve during "the journey." More horizontal progression. Discovering new abilities/spells from mobs, from drops, from quests, more gear, more reasons for a variety of gear like resists, environment. Most of all, more reward from group play. Grouping takes more time, is more rewarding, and promotes the social aspect of MMOs. If the game is harder and less forgiving, people need each other, all of a sudden the casual "go, go, go" mentality turns to one of more appreciation, value on strategy, and respect of good players. Achievements suddenly have meaning, you've made friends along the way, you gain renown for your achievements, etc etc. I could go on and on as to why and how the older approach is better, but I'm sure thats enough to rustle jimmies.
you also need to realize slowing down leveling also means people can not play together. Say a person is lvl10, he can't play with he's friend who is lvl80. Unless of course there is some system with up leveling or down leveling. There is also the issue where players like pvp to be balanced.
I think people misunderstand why games are the way they are now. They speed up leveling, so people can actually group together. You know how people keep saying the game start at max level nowadays?
Slowing down leveling, but also adding more to achieve during "the journey." More horizontal progression. Discovering new abilities/spells from mobs, from drops, from quests, more gear, more reasons for a variety of gear like resists, environment. Most of all, more reward from group play. Grouping takes more time, is more rewarding, and promotes the social aspect of MMOs. If the game is harder and less forgiving, people need each other, all of a sudden the casual "go, go, go" mentality turns to one of more appreciation, value on strategy, and respect of good players. Achievements suddenly have meaning, you've made friends along the way, you gain renown for your achievements, etc etc. I could go on and on as to why and how the older approach is better, but I'm sure thats enough to rustle jimmies.
you also need to realize slowing down leveling also means people can not play together. Say a person is lvl10, he can't play with he's friend who is lvl80. Unless of course there is some system with up leveling or down leveling. There is also the issue where players like pvp to be balanced.
I think people misunderstand why games are the way they are now. They speed up leveling, so people can actually group together. You know how people keep saying the game start at max level nowadays?
Ok, then keep leveling trivial, keep streamlining progression, players continue to have no attachment to their character and quit after a few months of grinding dungeons, dailys and raids.
If a player has a friend thats starting, maybe he should roll an alt with him. Thats what I did when my friends started a new character in old games. That or use my higher level character to find him some decent gear or help him level.
Don't know what to tell you. If you don't have an issue with jumping back and forth between shallow games, I guess there isn't a problem that needs to be solved.
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I can tell you, using an emu server that hasn't had new content in 5 years is hardly a reliable metric. Its still the best classic experience out there, but long gone are the days when the staff communicates or patches fixes on a regular basis. Not to mention the fact that the servers are extremely top heavy, and content is way overly contested. They've needed to open additional servers for a really long time, but they just don't seem to care any more.
I'm neither a player there, or on windbreaks progression servers, yet I've never met a bigger fan of Everquest than myself. I can tell you first hand many feel the same way, and simply want a new game based on the same premise, not to play the old version for the rest of their life.
I'm referring to seeing what the game-play is like compared to new games, of course an Emu is going to lack in regard to customer care, upkeep etc... It's there for those really curious on the topic.
I tend to not get involved on the topic of player numbers and success stories, it's just too anecdotal of a topic to care much about. As they say, if you build it they will come, how many is anyone's guess.
TBH I don't even know what people really want here, it's all about feelings and "spirit", I don't know how devs design feelings or "spirit".
I personally just want a game with plenty of features like SWG, whether it's a themepark or not, totally open world or not, truly challenging or not, doesn't make much difference to me. I want the option to progress in different areas like, piloting, creature handling, bounty hunting, etc...
To me this is what we should be talking about, not who's a vet, who's new, what we hate, fellings in general etc... There's no substance in any of that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
you just typed the reason why they poke you. It's not the term old school, but all this stance "we are old we know better", really doesn't help in discussions...
I'm changing my ways.....SO LEAVE ME ALONE !!...........Only kidding about the leave me alone part. But I am changing my ways
only in a real life party.
On an internet forum, one click and that person is likely invisible forever.
Yes .. hence the broadening of the term MMO beyond its original meaning. That is what "broadening" means.
The graphics and UI may be shinier, but after 15 years we're STILL killing 10 spiders in the basement of the Inn and collecting 10 body parts. That's why I can tell how boring a game is after a short playing time, a bit like being instantly bored with a "found camera footage" movie.
You know I kinda get what you're saying, however....yes, if you don't care about the narrative that's all it boils down to...Just like a shooter ultimately relies on pointing and then shooting or an RTS relies on unit selection, and then unit action... IN an RPG you start by killing the weak to work your way up to killing something greater. It's part of character growth. No matter how you break it down, just about every RPG (videogame) is going to have some element of this. In most cases, it only gets deeper if you apply yourself to it. On the surface every RPG is shallow, if that's all you experience due to a failure to gain a deeper connection, that's your take away....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You are clearly not playing new games.
There are MOBAs and e-sports which pit you against other skillful players.
There are action combat games with physical effects (like slow-time bubble) not possible 15 years ago.
There are card games, instanced games ..... if you still play kill 10 spider games .. you do it by choice.
Ehh, think this post is about MMO`s ... you do know what it means right ... Massive Multiplayer Online ... last time i checked a Moba wasnt massive at all, its mostly only 5 vs 5 same as the action combat games and card games, its not Massive at all.
And we do need something new in the MMO scene, hope for a non Fantasy MMO because we have too many of those already.
I would recommend a quick spin through his post history; you'll very quickly discover that your attempt to point him in the right direction is more futile than trying to resist the Borg.
As to your last point: hell yes! I'd be down for decade long break from Fantasy and fingers that fire colourful spells.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"Old School" is a very positive term to me. Most of my fav MMO's to this day are old school. For me old school generally means more hardcore, less casual. Like, my fav version of WoW is Vanilla. I still play Lineage 1, which is very old school and perhaps one of the grindiest (yet still most fun IMO) games ever. Hell there's even a new Lineage 1 server fixing to launch soon, which I plan on playing on:
www.LineageOne.tk
No. MMOs are no longer massive.
Otherwise this place, other sites, reviewers, and industry analysis sites will not call world of tanks, a clearly NOT "massively" game, a MMO.
"MMO" really does not mean much aside from a group of arbitrary online games.
Check the game list here. Tell me how many games that are NOT massive has the letters MM in front of the "genre" column.
Then they should call those games MO and not MMO`s, its a Multiplayer Online game not Massive so MO and not use MMO tag for those games.
And MMORPG.com is just the name of this website and they are reviewing also other MO and RPG games Singleplayer and multiplayer, but they shouldnt use the MMO tag on all their reviewed games because some arent MMO`s and some arent even MO`s at all.
So in short dont use a tag for a game that isnt that sort of game.
May be they should ... but what is the problem if they don't? It is not like no one knows that MMOs are not massive anymore.
So what if websites & reviewers use language labels for convenience, instead of for an accurate description. They won't be the first, nor the last ... and there is pretty much nothing a single person can do to affect usage of a language.
Because when you go to a restaurant and order Escargot, you don't expect to be given a couple of slugs in gravy.. which when you think about it, is what happens when you 'loosen' a definition to mean something entirely different.
Todays MO's are dumbed down to catch a larger playerbase. Notice i said MO and not MMO.
Most MMO's out, or in development are targeting a small player base, or niche.
Crowdfunding is a good thing, if done responsibly. Companies like EA would rather get a game out quick, unpolished, and geared towards reaping in huge lumps of cash as quick as they can...rather than taking their time with it and making a good product.
Oldschool games were more geared towards game mechanics than eye candy. Give me game mechanics any day of the week and call me Old.
All that being said, and all just my opinion, Camelot Unchained is the only game i am keeping an eye on atm. Hopefully it can catch the attention of the new breed of gamers and us old-timers can show them a thing or two about skill, not zerg.
Now when i hear a game is a MMO, i don't expect it to be massively .. so the expectation and the label matches. What is the problem?
Really? EQ has horrible combat mechanics compared to modern games like Diablo 3, or GW2, heck .. or anything.
Now horrible is subjective ... but i doubt many players will prefer the ancient EQ combat mechanics than modern games', aside from a few die hard veterans, i guess.
You are right about the staying power, MMos keep their players shorter and shorter time. Question is why.
Partly do I blame the bungee mentality (people who level up one character to max and then just quit), the short time to get to max and the very repetetive and uninspired endgame most MMOs have.
People might think that it is fun to level fast but when the majority either makes an alt or just quit as soon as they hit max it means something is wrong. The main part of the earliest MMOs was to level and reaching max back then actually took an effort, and not just time because it was hard and rather unforgiving. It was probably a bit too slow and when devs made it somewhat easier the players liked it. The problem is that leveling up a character in a matter of weeks or even faster means you need an even better endgame but the endgame is still what EQ had, without the effort to get there.
So in my opinion they either need to slow down leveling speed (or in a leveless game how you gain XP) or add a far better and more fun endgame. The problem is that most devs seems to think that the game needs to be even easier and faster instead which means that the players leave even faster.
MMOs shouldn't go back to how EQ was but they can't stay where they are right now either, when an average players spend 3 weeks in the game you don't get much income from them no matter what model you use. And that is why almost no western AAA developer have a MMO in the works, it is most kickstarters and a few smaller companies.
There are surely other ways to get the players stay longer and as long as they are fun. Unless something happening we will soon just have real low budget games, some Korean AAA and Final fantasy.
What is the problem if most players don't stay long? You only need the whales to stick around and pay.
Plus, from a player point of view, there is nothing wrong with playing a lot of short games, if that is what is fun to them.
Probably because there are more games now.
As much as many people on the forums like to act how glorious old games are, the reality is when WoW is out, it steal a bunch of players from those old games.
And for me, I dont' know why mmorpg have to be about leveling. Some people like to call leveling slowly journey. Which is funny, if they care that much about leveling, they really care about the destination but not the journey. If people really care about the journey, they don't need to get stronger to enjoy the journey. That's why I love GW2's system.
Slowing down leveling, but also adding more to achieve during "the journey." More horizontal progression. Discovering new abilities/spells from mobs, from drops, from quests, more gear, more reasons for a variety of gear like resists, environment. Most of all, more reward from group play. Grouping takes more time, is more rewarding, and promotes the social aspect of MMOs. If the game is harder and less forgiving, people need each other, all of a sudden the casual "go, go, go" mentality turns to one of more appreciation, value on strategy, and respect of good players. Achievements suddenly have meaning, you've made friends along the way, you gain renown for your achievements, etc etc. I could go on and on as to why and how the older approach is better, but I'm sure thats enough to rustle jimmies.
you also need to realize slowing down leveling also means people can not play together. Say a person is lvl10, he can't play with he's friend who is lvl80. Unless of course there is some system with up leveling or down leveling. There is also the issue where players like pvp to be balanced.
I think people misunderstand why games are the way they are now. They speed up leveling, so people can actually group together. You know how people keep saying the game start at max level nowadays?
Ok, then keep leveling trivial, keep streamlining progression, players continue to have no attachment to their character and quit after a few months of grinding dungeons, dailys and raids.
If a player has a friend thats starting, maybe he should roll an alt with him. Thats what I did when my friends started a new character in old games. That or use my higher level character to find him some decent gear or help him level.
Don't know what to tell you. If you don't have an issue with jumping back and forth between shallow games, I guess there isn't a problem that needs to be solved.