I wonder if some people misunderstand things written here on purpose just to see if they can rip someone else a new one on the net. While I understand that the tone and some thing said can lead to disrespect and anger, I think that threads like this(apart from the poll being useless due to its limited options, but I didn't bother with that) are very valuable sources of information.
baff - Being massive is of very variable meaning, but I guess it was irresistible to use it like that for ridiculing others posts and get some satisfaction out of it. Maybe there is the need for a new terminology then so that you can understand what some of the concepts here are about.
Even though the original poster flung around words like cheapskate and imo went overboard on occasions he actually does more of a constructive posting than some others here. This thread has some good ideas in it and is at least a good sort of brainstorming.
One thing I hope we can all agree on(and I think the original poster does so too, even though some still seem to punish him for not wording it too well at the start) is that if a company like Blizzard or SOE would suddenly charge 3 times the fee it wouldn't be put into the game immediately for the good of all players. As stated that isn't how it works, but as poopypants just said in his last reply he didn't mean it like that at all. Besides that it would lots of people leave and probably ruin the game anyways, if not it might just show the company a new way to earn (maybe more) money.
Looking at how many people played and play WoW, it does seem to be a very enjoyable and good product in the eyes of lots of people. They do not mind paying whatever fee they pay for it right now or they would just quit. So in the end the profit that is made with WoW, will only partially be put into the improvement of the current game, but I am sure that while someone will have one or two more Ferraris in his garage , a big amount of the profits will go into making the next Blizzard mmo a bigger undertaking even. When that is done it might even be possible that the monthly fee is less, it has more features and more to reach even a bigger customer base and rake in more profit.
Developing a game means money spent in advance which you hopefully get in again. Companies like Blizzard or Valve or 3dRealms made it big due to creating very popular games and moving in lots of Profit. I am actually glad that some developers made it big with their stuff and got out of publisher dependablity due to their hard work and taken risks. Blaming developers for the crappy games they make is something that is often heard while tons of people still play that game happily. If you pay for it you support it and show the company that it is something done right, why should they suddenly change that and maybe alienate their customers? That is probably the whole point of the question that poopypants asked us. What would the ideal mmo cost and be like if you would represent the whole consumer base.
My answer for that is what I wrote way above and I even gave a thought on the business model because I think that the game would actually not hold up/not be possible in the real world when being targeted at the mass market.
I understand very much that there is never a shortage on people telling you how dumb your idea is and how it will never work when looking at cases of the past. After all Richard Garriot was ridiculed too for claiming that people would pay monthly costs for playing this game called Ultima Online. If what I have read is true it generates a profit for EA to this very day.
And if you want to look at WOW, they net $75,000,000 a MONTH.
Please tell me why you want to pay these companies MORE??? I just don't get it.
Because he is planning to be one of those companies. See his posts elsewhere.
Hm, not really true, we do not plan to ever become a mass market company. Our analysis of the MMO market showed that a "better" game (better gameplay, does not sell better) needs to come out of a niche market because complex games are not suited to mass market consumer oriented players.
So I am not talking about games with a player base of millions or hundreds of thousands of players. I am talking about games with a player base of tens of thousands of people and I am talking of games which are not put up for sale in a box but provided online.
Without the starting boost of the box sales it is much harder to return your investment fast, especially with a smaller player base. Sure, you do not have that much costs to provide the game in total, but the costs relative to a single player are higher than in a mass market game for a high quality game.
This all leads to the idea that there is a need for more flexible fees. In our game a player has control over many characters. So we want to use a fair "pay what you use" concept and dont bill per account but per player-controlled character; we thought of 1 cent/day and character, with sums up to about 15.20$/month with 50 characters.
50 characters is a decent size for a family (a player controls a family in our game), so for a normal fee a player has good influence on the game on a local perspective. But to influence the game in a more global way, he would need more characters under his control. With 100 characters his monthly fee would rise to about 30.40$/month and with 200 characters to 60.80$/month in average.
It is all up to the player, but a player who has more characters does also have more influence and more power in the game. He can be at much more hot spots and manage things there, he can gain more and more diversified skills due to the sheer amount of characters gaining skills at the same time.
It might not please some players but they dont have to play our game if they dont like it. We do not blame them for playing others. This game is for adults who do not bother about fees in the first place but care about good gameplay and a complex and seamless and changeable game world.
There is a demand for such a world, not by millions, but maybe by a few tens or hundreds of thousands of players. Shall they wait forever just because no one dares to take the risk to create such a game but on the other hand says clearly that a normal monthly fee will not be enough for it?- Where is demand there is supply ... even in a niche market. And we try to supply this demand.
Hm, not really true, we do not plan to ever become a mass market company.
My apologies Ragosch. I should not have stated "one of those" companies but should have said: He is, or plans to be, a game developer. I think this pretty much explains the push for higher subscription fees.
Just a side note, I personally think your game pricing will not work. Many may play in the beginning but will become frustrated and leave when they see a few who can, or are willing to spend more money, dominating the game play. Yours will be a problem of unequal access and a barrier to many. To survive I think you will find yourself faced with coming up with a new pricing plan sooner than you think after launch.
Joebert, our game is a closed game with an invitational concept - it is a privileg to play it, not an offer to everybody. I do not think that many people will play it who bother at all about fees, it will be played by people with enough income but the specific need for a high quality game.
So the problem will not be there. I have plenty of contacts to people who are tired of the current MMOs and are in the desperate need for a high quality complex game world. They would love to spend more money if there would be such a game, but there isnt any. Those will get an invitation by us to play the game and they might invite others they think are worth playing this unique game also.
So I do not care about people not willing to pay or being afraid that others could spend more than they can. I care about those who do not bother about spending a few dollars for a game experience never seen before. Those players do not have an alternative yet, because such a game is not made yet and as it seems nobody wants to produce it. So we have to do it and we will take our time to do it best.
Originally posted by Ragosch Hm, not really true, we do not plan to ever become a mass market company. Our analysis of the MMO market showed that a "better" game (better gameplay, does not sell better) needs to come out of a niche market because complex games are not suited to mass market consumer oriented players. So I am not talking about games with a player base of millions or hundreds of thousands of players. I am talking about games with a player base of tens of thousands of people and I am talking of games which are not put up for sale in a box but provided online. Without the starting boost of the box sales it is much harder to return your investment fast, especially with a smaller player base. Sure, you do not have that much costs to provide the game in total, but the costs relative to a single player are higher than in a mass market game for a high quality game. This all leads to the idea that there is a need for more flexible fees. In our game a player has control over many characters. So we want to use a fair "pay what you use" concept and dont bill per account but per player-controlled character; we thought of 1 cent/day and character, with sums up to about 15.20$/month with 50 characters. 50 characters is a decent size for a family (a player controls a family in our game), so for a normal fee a player has good influence on the game on a local perspective. But to influence the game in a more global way, he would need more characters under his control. With 100 characters his monthly fee would rise to about 30.40$/month and with 200 characters to 60.80$/month in average. It is all up to the player, but a player who has more characters does also have more influence and more power in the game. He can be at much more hot spots and manage things there, he can gain more and more diversified skills due to the sheer amount of characters gaining skills at the same time. It might not please some players but they dont have to play our game if they dont like it. We do not blame them for playing others. This game is for adults who do not bother about fees in the first place but care about good gameplay and a complex and seamless and changeable game world. There is a demand for such a world, not by millions, but maybe by a few tens or hundreds of thousands of players. Shall they wait forever just because no one dares to take the risk to create such a game but on the other hand says clearly that a normal monthly fee will not be enough for it?- Where is demand there is supply ... even in a niche market. And we try to supply this demand. Ragosch
Well said Ragosch!
I'm hoping that indi-developers will begin moving toward direct download, forgoing all the unnecessary costs of traditional game marketing, packaging and delivery. This move alone will save indi-developers millions of $. But I'm putting the cart before the horse; As faster internet connections like VDSL-2 become more and more pervasive (60+ million homes in the US alone, by 2010), direct download will be the only way to go.
Most industries have a clearly observable stratum that enables most people (in the more developed parts of the world) to satisfy their needs and desires at whatever level they can afford (i.e. McDonald's vs. Buca di Beppo vs. DB Bistro Moderne). MMOGaming will be no different. Indeed, the MMOG industry has already begun to differentiate (this thread clearly demonstrates that fact) and by 2010 it will have a clearly observable stratum of it's own.
I would pay no more than I am paying now for the top MMO's--15 bucks a month. Hell, I can get digital cable for less a month than you're suggesting I should pay to some game developer for making an MMO. Let's face it, we could offer to pay a hundred a month and the game would still get released in a beta quality, there would still be loads of bugs, and there would still be lack of content and endgame issues.
Thanks for the clarification Ragosch. Sounds very boring to me with all handpicked members. Not too likely your game (if it ever materializes) will be a well rounded community.
I wonder, if you're not worried about the money, why is it you are trying to build hype so early on...just a thought.
Well have fun with your game and your rich friends. Since I'm just a simple "commoner" I'll wait and hope some kind developer throws us a few crumbs.
I still say you'll eventually have to come down off the high horse or shelve the whole works.
Thats your opinion. Yes- there is a SMALL percentage of kids who are spoiled, and get what they want from their parents- no matter what the price is, a smaller percentage then the kids who dont live this way. If you had actually read what I stated in my post, you would see I never said "NO" kids would pay this, I said the average kid under 18 cant afford a game like this. Read a post thoroughly before you discount it.
No need to be snide. Yes, it's my opinion and yes, I did read your post. But I still think there'd actually be more sub-18 kids who'd be willing to pay these kind of subscription fees than over 30 adults. I know it's counter-intuitive, but if you look at the cell phone market, it's not the thirty-somethings (by and large) who are paying extra monthly fees for things like musical ringtones, videogames, and so-on. Adults (at least the adults I know) tend to just want a phone that works. I'd contend that these attittudes toward digital content would carry over to MMOs. The kids might be willing to spend $60 a month for features like lip syncing avatars, but most adult gamers just want a game that works and is fun to play. And even if I'm wrong, excluding younger players is not a panacea for bad MMO communities... some of the most annoying players I've ever met have been well over 18. Atempting to price younger gamers out of a particular game would not improve that game's community because, quite simply, there are there are jerks in every age group.
Anyhow, this discussion remains pointless - I don't think there's enough people willing to pay $60 monthly in 2006 for an MMO to keep it fiscally viable, and I have not read any discriptions of content that would be remotely worth that much. Perhaps someday I'll be proven wrong, but as it is, I'm getting less and less comfortable with even the current pricing structure...
Originally posted by Joebert Thanks for the clarification Ragosch. Sounds very boring to me with all handpicked members. Not too likely your game (if it ever materializes) will be a well rounded community. I wonder, if you're not worried about the money, why is it you are trying to build hype so early on...just a thought. Well have fun with your game and your rich friends. Since I'm just a simple "commoner" I'll wait and hope some kind developer throws us a few crumbs. I still say you'll eventually have to come down off the high horse or shelve the whole works.
I am not worrying about the money because regardless whatever it might cost and regardless if the money spent will ever return, I will ensure this game will be created, just because I am myself one of those players desperately in need for a high quality game.
I am definately tired of old concepts like classes, quests and the ever-repeating GRIND in all games - THAT IS BORING TO ME, not a handpicked community of non-annoying players. The mass market game industry creates just games where you can sell new contents in nice boxes all the time. Waiting for the mass market to produce something really breath-taking and revolutionary is in vain IMO.
Do I build hype so early?- Hm, it is not my intention to hype here. I am just commenting to posts here and compare things to our design. As far as billing is concerned, it is a new idea for our game to charge in a very unusual way and I was interested in what people might think about it. Until now I just know what friends and friends of friends are thinking about it and they would accept it.
Im a sorry if you think I am sitting on a high horse. At all times there was demand for high quality goods and those who demand AND buy those goods do have the money for it also. So creating a product for those people is not a question of sitting on a high horse it is just supplying a special demand. Someone needs to do that or players interested in more complex games will suffer.
Another thing is that talking of "rich" friends is kind of ridiculous. No one needs to be "rich" to spend 30 or 60$ a month on good entertainment. If someone is playing 20 hours a week this is an average of about 87 hours a month. Isnt an hour of good entertainment worth 35 to 70 cents to you?- How much do you spend on less than 2 hours in a cinema?- And what does your pizza cost?- How much do you spend on useless things each month?- Entertainment is not useless, it helps you regenerate.
Anyway, no one forces you to play or even accept our concepts. It is up to you to not like it and up to us to create it the way we want it to be. It is not your problem to find players, we will care about it.
Originally posted by FeyRegy i'd pay $60+ a month, if the developers made something like virtual reality goggles :P
Heya FeyRegy,
Anageth said the same thing and I totally agree! $60 a month would be a hell of a bargin for high quality VR.
I conducted a poll on VR 2-3 months ago and, as I recall, I got a lot of positive feedback from that (my search button doesn't work so I can't give you accurate numbers): with around 60% saying that they would either do it in a heartbeat or would do it as soon as they had saved up the money. The figures I gave them were, I think, $2,700. for the VR gear + $70 a month for a VDSL-2 internet connection + $70 a month for the VR MMOG. The $2,700. figure for the VR gear is about 1/10th the actual price tag, but I was trying to simulate what the cost might be like in 2010 (with a huge boost by some entity like the IBM-Sony-Toshiba consortium).
I've done a lot of research into Virtual Reality in terms of market viability and, long story short, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Give it another 7-10 yrs., maybe more...
I am really curious about the actual game design now Ragosch.
The high horse problem is something that might look like a problem to lots of people while it probably isn't one at all. Just look at other sectors, designer clothes, precision-watch-turners for the 100k dollar watches in your cupboard that you only wear once a year, etc. That list goes on and you can go up from commoners like me(no way I could personally afford 60$/€ for an mmo, my limit is pretty much at 20€ currently) all the way up to rich people. If I can pay someone to walk my poodle and shampoo him with some oil from the seed of the bumbum tree or whatever, I might just buy someone to play dungeon master for me. Sure poor sods like me would maybe excluded from entertainment like that, but that doesn´t mean it will not have success in the first place. While you make good money with the mass market it is an illusion to say it is the only and best way. There are so many niche markets where people earn big money.
If Ragosch researched his target audience well enough and might have a bit of luck in addition to that, who knows how successful it might become.
Would I be in command of a company I would probably not cater to a high price tag if possible, but still try to get my game to as many as possible. Not millions, but a reasonable amount that works with the business model. Simply because I would like to give anyone who wants to play the chance to do so and have a broad customer base rooted in all age classes. I don't believe in the opinion so many people online have that its just the young guys who are annoying in games. I played computer games with 14 year olds who were very fun and mature, while some 35 year old acted like some 1337 full force moron.
Concerning the pricing there is still lots of stuff which could be explored. From the already mentioned account bundles for families (at least they could enable you to get a second account without having to buy the game box again imo) to a pricing that decreases over time as a reward for the long term players. Still I think that 10-15$ for a game you can play all month long is not much if you compare it to buying a DVD, going to cinema etc. That doesn't mean I would want to pay more, but for a decent game with enough content it is a reason to stick with it. Actually I think the reason so many people are unhappy with mmos and their prices is because they are unhappy with the mmo in the first place. Simply because there is no game that caters to their need to justify the price in their eyes. Which I can very much relate to, but can't really help it. The problem here is the same as with single player games, publishers fund concepts that are proven to work on the big market. Meaning games like WoW, EQ2 and the like. As long as enough people are playing those we will have to wait for some guerilla action developer to open up new ways. Just like guild wars did for the non-fee crowd.
Thanks for the clarification Ragosch. Sounds very boring to me with all handpicked members. Not too likely your game (if it ever materializes) will be a well rounded community.
I wonder, if you're not worried about the money, why is it you are trying to build hype so early on...just a thought.
Well have fun with your game and your rich friends. Since I'm just a simple "commoner" I'll wait and hope some kind developer throws us a few crumbs.
I still say you'll eventually have to come down off the high horse or shelve the whole works.
I am not worrying about the money because regardless whatever it might cost and regardless if the money spent will ever return, I will ensure this game will be created, just because I am myself one of those players desperately in need for a high quality game.
The average MMO costs $25,000,000 to make. So if you have that kind of money to invest, I wish you the best of luck. Considering that you don't care if the money ever returns, no bank or investor will ever lend you anything so you will need to have the whole $25 million free yourself. Or $125 million if you want one 5x as expensive. Do you have this available? Make me laugh tell me you are a student with $125 million in the bank.
I am definately tired of old concepts like classes, quests and the ever-repeating GRIND in all games - THAT IS BORING TO ME, not a handpicked community of non-annoying players. The mass market game industry creates just games where you can sell new contents in nice boxes all the time. Waiting for the mass market to produce something really breath-taking and revolutionary is in vain IMO.
Do I build hype so early?- Hm, it is not my intention to hype here. I am just commenting to posts here and compare things to our design. As far as billing is concerned, it is a new idea for our game to charge in a very unusual way and I was interested in what people might think about it. Until now I just know what friends and friends of friends are thinking about it and they would accept it.
You have a design? I hope it's not the same design as Poopies, with his VR glasses and wrist communicators that chat to people in game. I for one would not buy that design unless the communicator could also teleport me too the mothership.
Im a sorry if you think I am sitting on a high horse. At all times there was demand for high quality goods and those who demand AND buy those goods do have the money for it also. So creating a product for those people is not a question of sitting on a high horse it is just supplying a special demand. Someone needs to do that or players interested in more complex games will suffer.
No one disputes there is a demand for high quality goods. Most people would dispute that they are not on the market already and selling for 1/4 of Poopies suggested price. It's laughable in the extreme to imagine someone making a product 5x as high quality as WoW. As if the Blizzard programmers were some cheapskate noobs who don't know what they are doing and skimped on the development costs. Uh-huh.
Another thing is that talking of "rich" friends is kind of ridiculous. No one needs to be "rich" to spend 30 or 60$ a month on good entertainment. If someone is playing 20 hours a week this is an average of about 87 hours a month. Isnt an hour of good entertainment worth 35 to 70 cents to you?- How much do you spend on less than 2 hours in a cinema?- And what does your pizza cost?- How much do you spend on useless things each month?- Entertainment is not useless, it helps you regenerate.
An MMO isn't "the cinema". How huch I pay for the cinema or my health club or gun club or nightclub or in a restaurent is irrelevent. Instead of comparing an MMO to something it's not, you should focus instead on the subject in hand. How much I pay for an MMO. Which is $0 - $15.
If you are opening a cinema, then worry about how much I spend in a cinema.
Anyway, no one forces you to play or even accept our concepts. It is up to you to not like it and up to us to create it the way we want it to be. It is not your problem to find players, we will care about it.
Ragosch
Sorry if my reply is a little harsh. But your concept is WAY off base.
Originally posted by gLitterbug Would I be in command of a company I would probably not cater to a high price tag if possible, but still try to get my game to as many as possible. Not millions, but a reasonable amount that works with the business model. Simply because I would like to give anyone who wants to play the chance to do so and have a broad customer base rooted in all age classes.
We actually do this ... I never said anyone has to pay 30$ or 60$ a month. I said we will charge 1 cent per player-controled character and day. A player starts with 6 characters under his control (3 brothers and 3 sisters, his basic family) and he can play this little family for about 1.83$ a month. Yes, you read correct, not 18.30$ but 1.83$ - whereelse can you play a high quality game for that low?-
While the family is growing your fee is growing too until you limit it and say "ok, that is enough, I dont want to have more babies in my family". Then no female family member of your family will get pregnant anymore and your fee is fixed, actually going down again with characters dying. Time is advancing fast in our game and your characters will die of age someday.
With about 15$ a month you have control over 50 characters in your family. Most of them will work for the families income, create goods or provide services to other players (most of them are done by system, i.e. characters you are not using at the moment are played out by system like NPCs). The best of the best of your family are those you might play out personally, concentrating on the things you like and leave the grinding parts to the system - your family will provide you with all those things you need, if you manage them right.
So, with a decent fee you can play in a much more interesting way than known from normal MMOs where you basically have to GRIND and never really have the time to actually play the game.
If we would not charge per character but per account we would produce a big problem, population explosion. Every player would try to have as many family member as possible, actually poisoning the game world with his character and ruining any economy. So we simply converted this disadvantage into an advantage by charging per character. This way there will be no population explosing because it would be a wallet explosion for players too at the same time - problem solved so far.
For those who want to invest more time and effort in the game we did not limit the amount of family members a player might have under his control. And if he wants to he can employ characters from other players also, which count as under his control then and need to be payed by him. So those players, who provide the production factor labour in the game, get ingame income and do not need to pay for those characters because the player owning the employer-character needs to pay for them.
It is up to the player how he wants to play and how much money he wants to spend. He can play for as little as 1.83$ a month but also raise his fee to 100$, 200$ or more if he would not stop to let his family grow and supply all those family demands best. A healthy and wealthy family will grow fast and build a family dynasty which may have big influence on politics. He might even have influence on currency if one or more persons of his family are governors or presidents of nations ... or kings if he sticks to feudalistic systems.
So it is not an elitist game in the first place, but we will not tolerate any kind of idiots, griefers or other annoying people, we will kick them out with no chance to return ever (perma-ban). We are able to effectively, just because there are no open or anonym accounts available. We do not offer free trials or more than one account to a person. This game will be fair and free of people who are poison for the game world - we will filter them out and provide an authentic game world worth living in. If that is elitist, then we are elitist.
Originally posted by poopypants Development teams will need to be at least 5x bigger (mostly artists and designers). Development budgets will have to be at least 5x bigger. Development calendars should be 40-50% longer.This, of course, will mean that monthly subscription fees must be 5x more. Personally, I'd be more than willing to pay $50-$60 a month for a really good MMOG and I know that some of you feel the same. So...
If this is the answer to a good MMOG, then it will fail badly. Larger development teams doesn't necessarily mean better product. The communication between developers might actually take as much time as it would to develop with smaller team. Good design is more important and is actually much harder than implementation.
Development budget bigger ? Well more money is always better, but does it really get you a better game. Development calendar should be longer, well, by the time you finish your 8 years project, don't you think there might be a much better technology, more powerful graphics cards and in general better concepts and approaches. As for the price, noone should be paying for playing game more than electrical or cable bill.
We actually do this ... I never said anyone has to pay 30$ or 60$ a month. I said we will charge 1 cent per player-controled character and day. A player starts with 6 characters under his control (3 brothers and 3 sisters, his basic family) and he can play this little family for about 1.83$ a month. Yes, you read correct, not 18.30$ but 1.83$ - whereelse can you play a high quality game for that low?-
While the family is growing your fee is growing too until you limit it and say "ok, that is enough, I dont want to have more babies in my family". Then no female family member of your family will get pregnant anymore and your fee is fixed, actually going down again with characters dying. Time is advancing fast in our game and your characters will die of age someday.
family. Most of them will work for the familieWith about 15$ a month you have control over 50 characters in your s income, create goods or provide services to other players (most of them are done by system, i.e. characters you are not using at the moment are played out by system like NPCs). The best of the best of your family are those you might play out personally, concentrating on the things you like and leave the grinding parts to the system - your family will provide you with all those things you need, if you manage them right.
Ragosch
Sounds different. An MMORTS perhaps?
If you are going to allow shirty admins, you might want to be aware that you must refund anyone you ban for the full price of the game plus any subscriptions should they so desire. You are contractually bound by the contract of sale to provide the game service the moment you accept the money. Credit Card agencies are perfectly able to enforce this at the touch of a button.
Baff, I am not a student anymore, but I still was when I founded my first company 22 years ago.
I never said I will create a game 5x more expensive as WoW. We have a totally different business concept, but I will not expose it to you or anyone else here. Simply trust me that I will not throw money out of the window, I have no doubt that it will be as successful as nearly all what I have initiated in my life. It can be done and it will be done.
Rest of your post is polemic and not worth to talk about it.
Originally posted by baff If you are going to allow shirty admins, you might want to be aware that you must refund anyone you ban for the full price of the game plus any subscriptions should they so desire. You are contractually bound by the contract of sale to provide the game service the moment you accept the money. Credit Card agencies are perfectly able to enforce this at the touch of a button.
It depends on the license agreement - have a look at EVE's EULA for example. They can ban people without refunding the money. Just to give an example which is currently fact.
sorry rags I noticed once I saw your intresting post after. I'd been getting confused with the other posts.
What I said about investment still stands.
If your attitude is not to care about getting your money back, you better be in a position to pay for it all yourself.
What I said about cinema prices stands.
Comparing pricing of an MMO's to pizza'a and cinema's is stupid. Especially if you choose to put more weight in these comparisons than you do with the comparative prices of other MMO's.
Originally posted by baff If you are going to allow shirty admins, you might want to be aware that you must refund anyone you ban for the full price of the game plus any subscriptions should they so desire. You are contractually bound by the contract of sale to provide the game service the moment you accept the money. Credit Card agencies are perfectly able to enforce this at the touch of a button.
It depends on the license agreement - have a look at EVE's EULA for example. They can ban people without refunding the money. Just to give an example which is currently fact.
Ragosch
A lisence agreement is not binding unless signed before the contract of sale.
I.e. in the shop.
So with a boxed game, the Eula is always invalid.
But with an online bought game, the EULA is valid if signed before the credit card transaction.
This is covered under the Unfair Contract Act in the EU and Fair use laws in the U.S.
Essentially the game I have already bought will not function unless I click "agree". The same is true when I subscribe. Unless I "agree" to their TOS my money has been wasted. This is called duress, and no contract made in this way is legally binding.
In the example of EVE, if you downloaded your game and agreed to terms of service before subscribing, then they can ban you and not refund, but if, like me, you bought the CD, they cannot.
All agreement to any terms of service or subscription to EVE is made under duress as they already have my money. The game must do what it offers to do on the box cover or the deal is invalidated and a refund may be taken from the retailer.
Actually about 3/4 of the costs will be paid by reduction of taxes which we would otherwise have to pay. This way it is financed in a very inexpensive way.
Sure, we need to pay it back when the game actually will produce profit, but meanwhile most of the starting cost are none because we would have paid it as taxes anyway. We do not need to lend any money for it and while it is in development there is enough win from other areas of business.
You see this games comes at low costs compared with a game like WoW. Also our game concept demands totally other efforts than WoW. This leads to reduced costs also. We dont need that much artwork and content building because most of the content will be provided by players over time and not by us.
What we provide is basically a breath-taking looking interactive world and all those tools and gameplay to interact with it nicely. We will create all those tools needed to customize things and make most of the world customizable and changeable. If you want to know more about it, check for topics and posts of me in the developer corner here on mmorpg.
We dont have any boxes to sell. And players cannot get an account before their identity is proven and the contract is signed. We simply do not make business with unknown people and thats it. If they are trustworthy people, they can identify themselves, if they are not, we dont want them in the game.
Sales model sounds intresting, gameplay sounds different.
Sounds like control freak hell. You've put me right off. I'll stick with the mass market. (Or continue to play with myself).
You can't trust people, which means people can't trust you.
It cuts both ways and thats a horrible atmosphere in which to nurture any kind of community. Good luck with it. Always nice to hear about innovative approaches.
Originally posted by Ragosch We dont have any boxes to sell. And players cannot get an account before their identity is proven and the contract is signed. We simply do not make business with unknown people and thats it. If they are trustworthy people, they can identify themselves, if they are not, we dont want them in the game. Ragosch
In this case then it would depend on the wording and structure of your contract. But yeah, you could enforce the 'no refund' if you have them sign a binding contract to that affect before purchasing the product. However, if they're paying via CC you could still wind up with reversed charges. CC's don't really care what you think I don't think you want to get in a legal battle with VISA or MC.
I do like some of your ideas and if a player could conceivably play for <$5 a month you could wind up a real winner on this pricing format. Lord knows there ARE imbeciles out there that pay in excess of $60 a month for games now (how many folks do we know who have 4 or even 5 accounts in their favorite games so they can do things they couldn't solo?) If your allowing them to log multiple toons in on a single account then yeah, I could see your pricing scheme working quite well.
Thanks for the clarification on that earlier post.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Comments
I wonder if some people misunderstand things written here on purpose just to see if they can rip someone else a new one on the net. While I understand that the tone and some thing said can lead to disrespect and anger, I think that threads like this(apart from the poll being useless due to its limited options, but I didn't bother with that) are very valuable sources of information.
baff - Being massive is of very variable meaning, but I guess it was irresistible to use it like that for ridiculing others posts and get some satisfaction out of it. Maybe there is the need for a new terminology then so that you can understand what some of the concepts here are about.
Even though the original poster flung around words like cheapskate and imo went overboard on occasions he actually does more of a constructive posting than some others here. This thread has some good ideas in it and is at least a good sort of brainstorming.
One thing I hope we can all agree on(and I think the original poster does so too, even though some still seem to punish him for not wording it too well at the start) is that if a company like Blizzard or SOE would suddenly charge 3 times the fee it wouldn't be put into the game immediately for the good of all players. As stated that isn't how it works, but as poopypants just said in his last reply he didn't mean it like that at all. Besides that it would lots of people leave and probably ruin the game anyways, if not it might just show the company a new way to earn (maybe more) money.
Looking at how many people played and play WoW, it does seem to be a very enjoyable and good product in the eyes of lots of people. They do not mind paying whatever fee they pay for it right now or they would just quit. So in the end the profit that is made with WoW, will only partially be put into the improvement of the current game, but I am sure that while someone will have one or two more Ferraris in his garage , a big amount of the profits will go into making the next Blizzard mmo a bigger undertaking even. When that is done it might even be possible that the monthly fee is less, it has more features and more to reach even a bigger customer base and rake in more profit.
Developing a game means money spent in advance which you hopefully get in again. Companies like Blizzard or Valve or 3dRealms made it big due to creating very popular games and moving in lots of Profit. I am actually glad that some developers made it big with their stuff and got out of publisher dependablity due to their hard work and taken risks. Blaming developers for the crappy games they make is something that is often heard while tons of people still play that game happily. If you pay for it you support it and show the company that it is something done right, why should they suddenly change that and maybe alienate their customers? That is probably the whole point of the question that poopypants asked us. What would the ideal mmo cost and be like if you would represent the whole consumer base.
My answer for that is what I wrote way above and I even gave a thought on the business model because I think that the game would actually not hold up/not be possible in the real world when being targeted at the mass market.
I understand very much that there is never a shortage on people telling you how dumb your idea is and how it will never work when looking at cases of the past. After all Richard Garriot was ridiculed too for claiming that people would pay monthly costs for playing this game called Ultima Online. If what I have read is true it generates a profit for EA to this very day.
www.gLitterbug.org
Because he is planning to be one of those companies. See his posts elsewhere.
Hm, not really true, we do not plan to ever become a mass market company. Our analysis of the MMO market showed that a "better" game (better gameplay, does not sell better) needs to come out of a niche market because complex games are not suited to mass market consumer oriented players.
So I am not talking about games with a player base of millions or hundreds of thousands of players. I am talking about games with a player base of tens of thousands of people and I am talking of games which are not put up for sale in a box but provided online.
Without the starting boost of the box sales it is much harder to return your investment fast, especially with a smaller player base. Sure, you do not have that much costs to provide the game in total, but the costs relative to a single player are higher than in a mass market game for a high quality game.
This all leads to the idea that there is a need for more flexible fees. In our game a player has control over many characters. So we want to use a fair "pay what you use" concept and dont bill per account but per player-controlled character; we thought of 1 cent/day and character, with sums up to about 15.20$/month with 50 characters.
50 characters is a decent size for a family (a player controls a family in our game), so for a normal fee a player has good influence on the game on a local perspective. But to influence the game in a more global way, he would need more characters under his control. With 100 characters his monthly fee would rise to about 30.40$/month and with 200 characters to 60.80$/month in average.
It is all up to the player, but a player who has more characters does also have more influence and more power in the game. He can be at much more hot spots and manage things there, he can gain more and more diversified skills due to the sheer amount of characters gaining skills at the same time.
It might not please some players but they dont have to play our game if they dont like it. We do not blame them for playing others. This game is for adults who do not bother about fees in the first place but care about good gameplay and a complex and seamless and changeable game world.
There is a demand for such a world, not by millions, but maybe by a few tens or hundreds of thousands of players. Shall they wait forever just because no one dares to take the risk to create such a game but on the other hand says clearly that a normal monthly fee will not be enough for it?- Where is demand there is supply ... even in a niche market. And we try to supply this demand.
Ragosch
My apologies Ragosch.
I should not have stated "one of those" companies but should have said:
He is, or plans to be, a game developer.
I think this pretty much explains the push for higher subscription fees.
Just a side note, I personally think your game pricing will not work. Many may play in the beginning but will become frustrated and leave when they see a few who can, or are willing to spend more money, dominating the game play. Yours will be a problem of unequal access and a barrier to many. To survive I think you will find yourself faced with coming up with a new pricing plan sooner than you think after launch.
But that's just my opinion and not worth a dime
Joebert, our game is a closed game with an invitational concept - it is a privileg to play it, not an offer to everybody. I do not think that many people will play it who bother at all about fees, it will be played by people with enough income but the specific need for a high quality game.
So the problem will not be there. I have plenty of contacts to people who are tired of the current MMOs and are in the desperate need for a high quality complex game world. They would love to spend more money if there would be such a game, but there isnt any. Those will get an invitation by us to play the game and they might invite others they think are worth playing this unique game also.
So I do not care about people not willing to pay or being afraid that others could spend more than they can. I care about those who do not bother about spending a few dollars for a game experience never seen before. Those players do not have an alternative yet, because such a game is not made yet and as it seems nobody wants to produce it. So we have to do it and we will take our time to do it best.
Ragosch
Well said Ragosch!
I'm hoping that indi-developers will begin moving toward direct download, forgoing all the unnecessary costs of traditional game marketing, packaging and delivery. This move alone will save indi-developers
), direct download will be the only way to go.
millions of $. But I'm putting the cart before the horse; As faster internet connections like VDSL-2 become more and more pervasive (60+ million homes in the US alone, by 2010
Most industries have a clearly observable stratum that enables most people (in the more developed parts of the world) to satisfy their needs and desires at whatever level they can afford (i.e. McDonald's vs. Buca di Beppo vs. DB Bistro Moderne). MMOGaming will be no different. Indeed, the MMOG industry has already begun to differentiate (this thread clearly demonstrates that fact) and by 2010 it will have a clearly observable stratum of it's own.
I would pay no more than I am paying now for the top MMO's--15 bucks a month. Hell, I can get digital cable for less a month than you're suggesting I should pay to some game developer for making an MMO. Let's face it, we could offer to pay a hundred a month and the game would still get released in a beta quality, there would still be loads of bugs, and there would still be lack of content and endgame issues.
Thanks for the clarification Ragosch.
Sounds very boring to me with all handpicked members. Not too likely your game (if it ever materializes) will be a well rounded community.
I wonder, if you're not worried about the money, why is it you are trying to build hype so early on...just a thought.
Well have fun with your game and your rich friends. Since I'm just a simple "commoner" I'll wait and hope some kind developer throws us a few crumbs.
I still say you'll eventually have to come down off the high horse or shelve the whole works.
i'd pay $60+ a month, if the developers made something like virtual reality goggles :P
No need to be snide. Yes, it's my opinion and yes, I did read your post. But I still think there'd actually be more sub-18 kids who'd be willing to pay these kind of subscription fees than over 30 adults. I know it's counter-intuitive, but if you look at the cell phone market, it's not the thirty-somethings (by and large) who are paying extra monthly fees for things like musical ringtones, videogames, and so-on. Adults (at least the adults I know) tend to just want a phone that works. I'd contend that these attittudes toward digital content would carry over to MMOs. The kids might be willing to spend $60 a month for features like lip syncing avatars, but most adult gamers just want a game that works and is fun to play. And even if I'm wrong, excluding younger players is not a panacea for bad MMO communities... some of the most annoying players I've ever met have been well over 18. Atempting to price younger gamers out of a particular game would not improve that game's community because, quite simply, there are there are jerks in every age group.
Anyhow, this discussion remains pointless - I don't think there's enough people willing to pay $60 monthly in 2006 for an MMO to keep it fiscally viable, and I have not read any discriptions of content that would be remotely worth that much. Perhaps someday I'll be proven wrong, but as it is, I'm getting less and less comfortable with even the current pricing structure...
I am not worrying about the money because regardless whatever it might cost and regardless if the money spent will ever return, I will ensure this game will be created, just because I am myself one of those players desperately in need for a high quality game.
I am definately tired of old concepts like classes, quests and the ever-repeating GRIND in all games - THAT IS BORING TO ME, not a handpicked community of non-annoying players. The mass market game industry creates just games where you can sell new contents in nice boxes all the time. Waiting for the mass market to produce something really breath-taking and revolutionary is in vain IMO.
Do I build hype so early?- Hm, it is not my intention to hype here. I am just commenting to posts here and compare things to our design. As far as billing is concerned, it is a new idea for our game to charge in a very unusual way and I was interested in what people might think about it. Until now I just know what friends and friends of friends are thinking about it and they would accept it.
Im a sorry if you think I am sitting on a high horse. At all times there was demand for high quality goods and those who demand AND buy those goods do have the money for it also. So creating a product for those people is not a question of sitting on a high horse it is just supplying a special demand. Someone needs to do that or players interested in more complex games will suffer.
Another thing is that talking of "rich" friends is kind of ridiculous. No one needs to be "rich" to spend 30 or 60$ a month on good entertainment. If someone is playing 20 hours a week this is an average of about 87 hours a month. Isnt an hour of good entertainment worth 35 to 70 cents to you?- How much do you spend on less than 2 hours in a cinema?- And what does your pizza cost?- How much do you spend on useless things each month?- Entertainment is not useless, it helps you regenerate.
Anyway, no one forces you to play or even accept our concepts. It is up to you to not like it and up to us to create it the way we want it to be. It is not your problem to find players, we will care about it.
Ragosch
Heya FeyRegy,
Anageth said the same thing and I totally agree! $60 a month would be a hell of a bargin for high quality VR.
I conducted a poll on VR 2-3 months ago and, as I recall, I got a lot of positive feedback from that (my search button doesn't work so I can't give you accurate numbers): with around 60% saying that they would either do it in a heartbeat or would do it as soon as they had saved up the money. The figures I gave them were, I think, $2,700. for the VR gear + $70 a month for a VDSL-2 internet connection + $70 a month for the VR MMOG. The $2,700. figure for the VR gear is about 1/10th the actual price tag, but I was trying to simulate what the cost might be like in 2010 (with a huge boost by some entity like the IBM-Sony-Toshiba consortium).
I've done a lot of research into Virtual Reality in terms of market viability and, long story short, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Give it another 7-10 yrs., maybe more...
I am really curious about the actual game design now Ragosch.
The high horse problem is something that might look like a problem to lots of people while it probably isn't one at all. Just look at other sectors, designer clothes, precision-watch-turners for the 100k dollar watches in your cupboard that you only wear once a year, etc. That list goes on and you can go up from commoners like me(no way I could personally afford 60$/€ for an mmo, my limit is pretty much at 20€ currently) all the way up to rich people.
If I can pay someone to walk my poodle and shampoo him with some oil from the seed of the bumbum tree or whatever, I might just buy someone to play dungeon master for me.
Sure poor sods like me would maybe excluded from entertainment like that, but that doesn´t mean it will not have success in the first place. While you make good money with the mass market it is an illusion to say it is the only and best way. There are so many niche markets where people earn big money.
If Ragosch researched his target audience well enough and might have a bit of luck in addition to that, who knows how successful it might become.
Would I be in command of a company I would probably not cater to a high price tag if possible, but still try to get my game to as many as possible. Not millions, but a reasonable amount that works with the business model. Simply because I would like to give anyone who wants to play the chance to do so and have a broad customer base rooted in all age classes. I don't believe in the opinion so many people online have that its just the young guys who are annoying in games. I played computer games with 14 year olds who were very fun and mature, while some 35 year old acted like some 1337 full force moron.
Concerning the pricing there is still lots of stuff which could be explored. From the already mentioned account bundles for families (at least they could enable you to get a second account without having to buy the game box again imo) to a pricing that decreases over time as a reward for the long term players. Still I think that 10-15$ for a game you can play all month long is not much if you compare it to buying a DVD, going to cinema etc. That doesn't mean I would want to pay more, but for a decent game with enough content it is a reason to stick with it. Actually I think the reason so many people are unhappy with mmos and their prices is because they are unhappy with the mmo in the first place. Simply because there is no game that caters to their need to justify the price in their eyes. Which I can very much relate to, but can't really help it. The problem here is the same as with single player games, publishers fund concepts that are proven to work on the big market. Meaning games like WoW, EQ2 and the like. As long as enough people are playing those we will have to wait for some guerilla action developer to open up new ways. Just like guild wars did for the non-fee crowd.
www.gLitterbug.org
We actually do this ... I never said anyone has to pay 30$ or 60$ a month. I said we will charge 1 cent per player-controled character and day. A player starts with 6 characters under his control (3 brothers and 3 sisters, his basic family) and he can play this little family for about 1.83$ a month. Yes, you read correct, not 18.30$ but 1.83$ - whereelse can you play a high quality game for that low?-
While the family is growing your fee is growing too until you limit it and say "ok, that is enough, I dont want to have more babies in my family". Then no female family member of your family will get pregnant anymore and your fee is fixed, actually going down again with characters dying. Time is advancing fast in our game and your characters will die of age someday.
With about 15$ a month you have control over 50 characters in your family. Most of them will work for the families income, create goods or provide services to other players (most of them are done by system, i.e. characters you are not using at the moment are played out by system like NPCs). The best of the best of your family are those you might play out personally, concentrating on the things you like and leave the grinding parts to the system - your family will provide you with all those things you need, if you manage them right.
So, with a decent fee you can play in a much more interesting way than known from normal MMOs where you basically have to GRIND and never really have the time to actually play the game.
If we would not charge per character but per account we would produce a big problem, population explosion. Every player would try to have as many family member as possible, actually poisoning the game world with his character and ruining any economy. So we simply converted this disadvantage into an advantage by charging per character. This way there will be no population explosing because it would be a wallet explosion for players too at the same time - problem solved so far.
For those who want to invest more time and effort in the game we did not limit the amount of family members a player might have under his control. And if he wants to he can employ characters from other players also, which count as under his control then and need to be payed by him. So those players, who provide the production factor labour in the game, get ingame income and do not need to pay for those characters because the player owning the employer-character needs to pay for them.
It is up to the player how he wants to play and how much money he wants to spend. He can play for as little as 1.83$ a month but also raise his fee to 100$, 200$ or more if he would not stop to let his family grow and supply all those family demands best. A healthy and wealthy family will grow fast and build a family dynasty which may have big influence on politics. He might even have influence on currency if one or more persons of his family are governors or presidents of nations ... or kings if he sticks to feudalistic systems.
So it is not an elitist game in the first place, but we will not tolerate any kind of idiots, griefers or other annoying people, we will kick them out with no chance to return ever (perma-ban). We are able to effectively, just because there are no open or anonym accounts available. We do not offer free trials or more than one account to a person. This game will be fair and free of people who are poison for the game world - we will filter them out and provide an authentic game world worth living in. If that is elitist, then we are elitist.
Ragosch
If this is the answer to a good MMOG, then it will fail badly. Larger development teams doesn't necessarily mean better product. The communication between developers might actually take as much time as it would to develop with smaller team. Good design is more important and is actually much harder than implementation.
Development budget bigger ? Well more money is always better, but does it really get you a better game.
Development calendar should be longer, well, by the time you finish your 8 years project, don't you think there might be a much better technology, more powerful graphics cards and in general better concepts and approaches. As for the price, noone should be paying for playing game more than electrical or cable bill.
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Emperium Online
We actually do this ... I never said anyone has to pay 30$ or 60$ a month. I said we will charge 1 cent per player-controled character and day. A player starts with 6 characters under his control (3 brothers and 3 sisters, his basic family) and he can play this little family for about 1.83$ a month. Yes, you read correct, not 18.30$ but 1.83$ - whereelse can you play a high quality game for that low?-
While the family is growing your fee is growing too until you limit it and say "ok, that is enough, I dont want to have more babies in my family". Then no female family member of your family will get pregnant anymore and your fee is fixed, actually going down again with characters dying. Time is advancing fast in our game and your characters will die of age someday.
family. Most of them will work for the familieWith about 15$ a month you have control over 50 characters in your s income, create goods or provide services to other players (most of them are done by system, i.e. characters you are not using at the moment are played out by system like NPCs). The best of the best of your family are those you might play out personally, concentrating on the things you like and leave the grinding parts to the system - your family will provide you with all those things you need, if you manage them right.
Ragosch
Sounds different. An MMORTS perhaps?
If you are going to allow shirty admins, you might want to be aware that you must refund anyone you ban for the full price of the game plus any subscriptions should they so desire. You are contractually bound by the contract of sale to provide the game service the moment you accept the money. Credit Card agencies are perfectly able to enforce this at the touch of a button.
Baff, I am not a student anymore, but I still was when I founded my first company 22 years ago.
I never said I will create a game 5x more expensive as WoW. We have a totally different business concept, but I will not expose it to you or anyone else here. Simply trust me that I will not throw money out of the window, I have no doubt that it will be as successful as nearly all what I have initiated in my life. It can be done and it will be done.
Rest of your post is polemic and not worth to talk about it.
Ragosch
It depends on the license agreement - have a look at EVE's EULA for example. They can ban people without refunding the money. Just to give an example which is currently fact.
Ragosch
sorry rags I noticed once I saw your intresting post after. I'd been getting confused with the other posts.
What I said about investment still stands.
If your attitude is not to care about getting your money back, you better be in a position to pay for it all yourself.
What I said about cinema prices stands.
Comparing pricing of an MMO's to pizza'a and cinema's is stupid. Especially if you choose to put more weight in these comparisons than you do with the comparative prices of other MMO's.
It depends on the license agreement - have a look at EVE's EULA for example. They can ban people without refunding the money. Just to give an example which is currently fact.
Ragosch
A lisence agreement is not binding unless signed before the contract of sale.
I.e. in the shop.
So with a boxed game, the Eula is always invalid.
But with an online bought game, the EULA is valid if signed before the credit card transaction.
This is covered under the Unfair Contract Act in the EU and Fair use laws in the U.S.
Essentially the game I have already bought will not function unless I click "agree". The same is true when I subscribe. Unless I "agree" to their TOS my money has been wasted. This is called duress, and no contract made in this way is legally binding.
In the example of EVE, if you downloaded your game and agreed to terms of service before subscribing, then they can ban you and not refund, but if, like me, you bought the CD, they cannot.
All agreement to any terms of service or subscription to EVE is made under duress as they already have my money. The game must do what it offers to do on the box cover or the deal is invalidated and a refund may be taken from the retailer.
Actually about 3/4 of the costs will be paid by reduction of taxes which we would otherwise have to pay. This way it is financed in a very inexpensive way.
Sure, we need to pay it back when the game actually will produce profit, but meanwhile most of the starting cost are none because we would have paid it as taxes anyway. We do not need to lend any money for it and while it is in development there is enough win from other areas of business.
You see this games comes at low costs compared with a game like WoW. Also our game concept demands totally other efforts than WoW. This leads to reduced costs also. We dont need that much artwork and content building because most of the content will be provided by players over time and not by us.
What we provide is basically a breath-taking looking interactive world and all those tools and gameplay to interact with it nicely. We will create all those tools needed to customize things and make most of the world customizable and changeable. If you want to know more about it, check for topics and posts of me in the developer corner here on mmorpg.
Ragosch
We dont have any boxes to sell. And players cannot get an account before their identity is proven and the contract is signed. We simply do not make business with unknown people and thats it. If they are trustworthy people, they can identify themselves, if they are not, we dont want them in the game.
Ragosch
Sales model sounds intresting, gameplay sounds different.
Sounds like control freak hell. You've put me right off. I'll stick with the mass market. (Or continue to play with myself).
You can't trust people, which means people can't trust you.
It cuts both ways and thats a horrible atmosphere in which to nurture any kind of community. Good luck with it. Always nice to hear about innovative approaches.
In this case then it would depend on the wording and structure of your contract. But yeah, you could enforce the 'no refund' if you have them sign a binding contract to that affect before purchasing the product. However, if they're paying via CC you could still wind up with reversed charges. CC's don't really care what you think
I don't think you want to get in a legal battle with VISA or MC.
I do like some of your ideas and if a player could conceivably play for <$5 a month you could wind up a real winner on this pricing format. Lord knows there ARE imbeciles out there that pay in excess of $60 a month for games now (how many folks do we know who have 4 or even 5 accounts in their favorite games so they can do things they couldn't solo?) If your allowing them to log multiple toons in on a single account then yeah, I could see your pricing scheme working quite well.
Thanks for the clarification on that earlier post.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas