Originally posted by Slickinfinit I put a huge portion of the blame for messing SWG up on the crybaby's who day after day complained how "SWG is to hard", "Only players with UBER gear have fun", "Its all dot wars" and my favorite "I hate being killed after I teff". I seen tons of post saying how SOE dosnt listen well apparently they did and they listened to the wrong whiners. I cant understand how a person who plays mmo's and was in SWG pre-cu didnt see that is was the most complex system any mmo ever had. Instead of working with it and tweaking it over the last few years they did radical overhauls and pissed off every player who ever invested time in thier characters. Why did they have to change the best game I ever played into the worst? Just to see if u could lol, seriously though what was bad about the PRE-CU???? Everything had a counter to everything pre-cu.
Quit falling for SOE's spin. The ONLY ones I have ever heard claim the players thought it was hard was the LEC and SOE marketting departments. Pre-CU everyone felt the game was excessively EASY because you could max out a template in about 2 weeks.
SWG's system was not complex, it was just robust. Quit listening to Torres and Smedley try to convice everyone that the NGE is what everyone wanted so they could justify cramming it in.
I am not falling for SOE's spin I just have read countless posts by complainers on the SWG forums since I started playing and it seems they are the only players that got what they wanted and as for complex well pre-cu was by far more complex and yes robust.
The last thing I would wanna ever do is believe what SOE says and my OP was just an observation of what I thought was a major reason SWG was ruined.
I am not saying that Jedi needed to be as strong as 10 people or even 3 for that matter. Jedi needed to be at least 1 and a half times as strong as any other profession, especially BH because of the amount of xp loss they had.
...
As far as the numbers of Jedi goes, that could have been controlled VERY easily by SOE and LA if they had half a brain. A simple combination of everything ..... like first completing all the events that got people "glowy", then Holo grinding but make it so that you can only use one Holocron every month and they needed a minimum of 8 or whatever professions they needed to master, then they could have added in the village. Then once they begin grinding jedi they could have made it easier to become "visible" and then a BH comes and kills you while you are grinding jedi and you lose xp. Then once you are a Jedi there could have been a death penalty that if you are killed so many times in a certain time period you go back to the beginning of your Jedi grinding. Once you becoome a Knight then it is more deaths that is needed. When you are Guardian then even more deaths, and so on.
I would sooooo not play your version of SWG either.
A) Alpha classes kill PvP. 10x greater or 1.5x greater, both just lead to people crying, "unfair," and refusing to get involved in group fights where the alpha class is involved. (Unless that alpha class is hopelessly outnumbered, in which case it still isn't any fun.
Re-grinding is booooring.
If it were my game, I doubt I would include an actual "Jedi" profession, to keep it true to the canon-timeline. Instead, I would have quests/events to unlock a character's Force Sensitivity, and then have quests to unlock Force skill trees (yes, these you'd have to grind up.) These would add new specials and abilities to your character (building/weilding lightsabers, force heal, force lightning, etc.) but you never leave the standard templates; you never become a "Jedi" because the only Jedi in existence at this time is Yoda, training Luke. Sure you can have someone who acquires all the Force Skills, so in essence looks and walks like a Jedi, but as they aren't actually trained as a Jedi they should be no more powerful than the regular profession templates.
Okie, enough daydreaming...
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Originally posted by duggo Originally posted by SagoI am not saying that Jedi needed to be as strong as 10 people or even 3 for that matter. Jedi needed to be at least 1 and a half times as strong as any other profession, especially BH because of the amount of xp loss they had. ...As far as the numbers of Jedi goes, that could have been controlled VERY easily by SOE and LA if they had half a brain. A simple combination of everything ..... like first completing all the events that got people "glowy", then Holo grinding but make it so that you can only use one Holocron every month and they needed a minimum of 8 or whatever professions they needed to master, then they could have added in the village. Then once they begin grinding jedi they could have made it easier to become "visible" and then a BH comes and kills you while you are grinding jedi and you lose xp. Then once you are a Jedi there could have been a death penalty that if you are killed so many times in a certain time period you go back to the beginning of your Jedi grinding. Once you becoome a Knight then it is more deaths that is needed. When you are Guardian then even more deaths, and so on.
I would sooooo not play your version of SWG either.
A) Alpha classes kill PvP. 10x greater or 1.5x greater, both just lead to people crying, "unfair," and refusing to get involved in group fights where the alpha class is involved. (Unless that alpha class is hopelessly outnumbered, in which case it still isn't any fun.
Re-grinding is booooring.
If it were my game, I doubt I would include an actual "Jedi" profession, to keep it true to the canon-timeline. Instead, I would have quests/events to unlock a character's Force Sensitivity, and then have quests to unlock Force skill trees (yes, these you'd have to grind up.) These would add new specials and abilities to your character (building/weilding lightsabers, force heal, force lightning, etc.) but you never leave the standard templates; you never become a "Jedi" because the only Jedi in existence at this time is Yoda, training Luke. Sure you can have someone who acquires all the Force Skills, so in essence looks and walks like a Jedi, but as they aren't actually trained as a Jedi they should be no more powerful than the regular profession templates.
Okie, enough daydreaming...
-d
I would play your version duggo. There is just so much diversity you could have had with Force skills being elite-abilities, the only problem is you would be limited to one or two. trees, and maybe have 30+ trees. Something for crafting, something for combat, something for defense, there would be no end really. The becoming a jedi thing could have been a very long story planned out over a couple of years and moving the timeline to coincide with the actual SWG timeline. or whatever, yeah there is definitely a lot of ideas there but nobody it seems can think of any idea except the NGE being a decent one at SOE HQ. but so enough daydreaming.
SWG pre-CU wasn't all that complexed. I can't believe I'n seeing people write how hard the game was to understand and play.
SWG was my very first on-line mmorpg I ever played and it didn't take me long to figure it out. Not only did I figure it out quickly but I made a ton of credits doing it.
All it needed was a bit of tweaking on some aspects of the game and not a complete moronic overhaul like it got.
I can't believe people thought it was hard. I think they need to go look at other games then. I was a mmorpg noob when SWG came out and I didn't find it too difficult
There are only 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't
Originally posted by Blue3000 SWG pre-CU wasn't all that complexed. I can't believe I'n seeing people write how hard the game was to understand and play. SWG was my very first on-line mmorpg I ever played and it didn't take me long to figure it out. Not only did I figure it out quickly but I made a ton of credits doing it. All it needed was a bit of tweaking on some aspects of the game and not a complete moronic overhaul like it got.
So if accessibility was never an issue and the game was nearly perfect, needing only a bit of tweaking, what, in your opinion, kept the game from aquiring and keeping over 300k subscriptions?
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am really curious to hear from people who found no major flaw with pre-CU as to why it was such a limited success.
With the multitude of Star Wars fans, if the game was accessible and super-fantastic, it should have beat WoW to the 1mil+ tally, but it didn't.
The way I see it, subscription levels brought about CU/NGE, not forum whining.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Frist off we are all basing the "success" of swg against WoW, lets face it pre-WoW any game that had 300k to 500k subscriptions was a considered a very good game at attracting players. before WoW it was not subs but how long a game lasted that was a benchmark for success.
now on to why I feel swg pre-Cu was not the killer mmorpg.
a. content. all of the quests in the game had a very similar feel to them. fetch, carry, escort, kill bob over there. while this is not bad, it was very frustrating to be heading to to kill bob over there or deliver fred the package and watch someone else kill them off.
b. content: when they had the first story arc going all of my guild would tear off and do it, this was great. then in one chapeter it came out that the imperials were winning, suddenly the arc was extended for an extra two weeks with th posting for the first time BEFORE the arc was done that the imps were winning one finally. sort of a slap in the teeth for imps. If there were more story arcs built into the game or added then i think you would have seen a great retention for the quest type of players.
c. nerfs: game balance in my personal opinion should never be addressed via nerfing, especially based on player whining.
d. Jedi: speak as a pre-cu jedi, yes i was templated too. the hologrind was the wrong way to do the implimentation of the jedi. frankly the village was alot better as it did nto "force" you to break up yoru template to attempt to get to jedi. In my perfect world how you obtained jedi would have been thus:
when you created your character an random generator woudl assign you pois, quests, maybe even some need x rep with y faction for each player, this way there would have been no simple pattern to copy to get to jedi. as you explored the game and did "things" one day your character would have an epiphany, and then a completely random npc would send you mail to meet them somewhere to learn about yoru destiny.
e. cannon confusion: they should never had set it between ep iv and v., especially with jedi, bh, tka, and the new items they they kept putting in from the earlier movies. one of the things that drobve me personally nuts was to see the flame wars about cannon this and eu that.
CU came about because of WoW, if you look at CU and WoW they are really hella close together.
NGE came about from the desire to push the game to consoles, if you do nto beleive that then why did prima have a guide to swg console ready in december after the nge push in november?
Originally posted by caine6621 I think the problem was we didn't know what we had.There were a lot of problems Pre-CU. Stuff was broken, professions sucked etc etc Had we known what SOE was going to do I bet we would have shut up.Just a question I want to throw out there since I have no idea what the answer is:What game has the highest subscription and how many people is it? or a top 5?
As a pre-cu player myself, I haven't forgotten what gameplay was like in those days. There was always something to complain about, but as long as the servers were up and running, I would log on for quite a few hours on a regular basis.
Blame can be placed anywhere and everywhere, but the ultimate control lies with the company as they decide what is implemented and what is not. I remember being a n00b and seeing all the "UBER" players in their gear and all their cool toys. But I figured they had put in the time to earn what they got, or cheated people in game to get where they were at, and it was up to me to decide where I stood in that universe.
I ended up becoming fairly uber myself, and by the time I had left, I had been soloing krayts. I had saved over 20 premium pearls for my freshly unlocked jedi and was in the process of completing the trials. I had over 10 Anti-decay kits and I hadn't even been playing a whole year myself. (Of course, I did spend an unhealthy amount of time playing.) The changes prior to my leaving had improved the game quite a bit, and while gameplay was pretty stagnate at that point, it was comfortable and enjoyable. My bigger complaints were over people in the community as opposed to the general game design.
But as the CU came, I found that my character lost all his flair. With or without my gear, my avatar no longer retained his uberness, and to my dismay, nerfed beyond repair. I had been able to take down player jedi in duals with great consistentcy. After the CU, I found myself running from low level mobs just to survive. The time I had invested became worthless, and I canceled my subscription.
I tried the NGE free months later. It was fun, starting off as a new character. The gameplay was different, but remnants of the old system brought back a level of familiarity. But it just wasn't the same.
Since the universe revolved around combat, there were always balancing issues. I took pride in knowing that I had designed a solid build to fight jedi, but was also disappointed. PVP was generally a rush for me, but lost its fun. On my server, the pvp groups would almost always have too many and never enough.
Even with all its flaws, I sure miss how it used to be. The players did want change, but adjustments not a completely different game. I'm still trying to find a game to recapture the magic, but I doubt I will.
Originally posted by Slickinfinit I put a huge portion of the blame for messing SWG up on the crybaby's who day after day complained how "SWG is to hard", "Only players with UBER gear have fun", "Its all dot wars" and my favorite "I hate being killed after I teff". I seen tons of post saying how SOE dosnt listen well apparently they did and they listened to the wrong whiners. I cant understand how a person who plays mmo's and was in SWG pre-cu didnt see that is was the most complex system any mmo ever had. Instead of working with it and tweaking it over the last few years they did radical overhauls and pissed off every player who ever invested time in thier characters. Why did they have to change the best game I ever played into the worst? Just to see if u could lol, seriously though what was bad about the PRE-CU???? Everything had a counter to everything pre-cu.
i dont hate the pre cu era, i started playing just after pre pub 9 and i wish i was playing since launch.
Honestly, the original SWG was my very first MMO and I found it extremely difficult to get into. There were just too many things to understand how they worked (Armor, buffs, combat, guilds, etc., etc.) and too little explanation on how they worked. I finally got fed up with getting incapped by Corellian Butterflies and quit.
Frankly I found the complexity compelling and challenging. It's what I loved about it. It was the antithesis of Wolfenstein.
Originally posted by SeCKSEgai As a pre-cu player myself, I haven't forgotten what gameplay was like in those days. There was always something to complain about, but as long as the servers were up and running, I would log on for quite a few hours on a regular basis. Blame can be placed anywhere and everywhere, but the ultimate control lies with the company as they decide what is implemented and what is not. I remember being a n00b and seeing all the "UBER" players in their gear and all their cool toys. But I figured they had put in the time to earn what they got, or cheated people in game to get where they were at, and it was up to me to decide where I stood in that universe. I ended up becoming fairly uber myself, and by the time I had left, I had been soloing krayts. I had saved over 20 premium pearls for my freshly unlocked jedi and was in the process of completing the trials. I had over 10 Anti-decay kits and I hadn't even been playing a whole year myself. (Of course, I did spend an unhealthy amount of time playing.) The changes prior to my leaving had improved the game quite a bit, and while gameplay was pretty stagnate at that point, it was comfortable and enjoyable. My bigger complaints were over people in the community as opposed to the general game design. But as the CU came, I found that my character lost all his flair. With or without my gear, my avatar no longer retained his uberness, and to my dismay, nerfed beyond repair. I had been able to take down player jedi in duals with great consistentcy. After the CU, I found myself running from low level mobs just to survive. The time I had invested became worthless, and I canceled my subscription. I tried the NGE free months later. It was fun, starting off as a new character. The gameplay was different, but remnants of the old system brought back a level of familiarity. But it just wasn't the same. Since the universe revolved around combat, there were always balancing issues. I took pride in knowing that I had designed a solid build to fight jedi, but was also disappointed. PVP was generally a rush for me, but lost its fun. On my server, the pvp groups would almost always have too many and never enough. Even with all its flaws, I sure miss how it used to be. The players did want change, but adjustments not a completely different game. I'm still trying to find a game to recapture the magic, but I doubt I will.
I too was a pre-CU player, by about 6 months or so. I had a real nice toon. TKM/Mswords/4xxx fencer/xx4x pikeman. I loved going out and kicking the crap out of almost anything and anyone. Unfortuantely my PVP experience was limited to a few handful of duels before the CURB hit. I got to FT Jedi shortly after the CURB went live and started really getting into PVP since there wasn't a lot more to do (more content would have been real nice). Hearing you talk about pre-CU PVP makes me sad I never really got to experience it with either of my templates.
Originally posted by duggo Honestly, the original SWG was my very first MMO and I found it extremely difficult to get into. There were just too many things to understand how they worked (Armor, buffs, combat, guilds, etc., etc.) and too little explanation on how they worked. I finally got fed up with getting incapped by Corellian Butterflies and quit.
Frankly I found the complexity compelling and challenging. It's what I loved about it. It was the antithesis of Wolfenstein.
Undoubtedly there are people who enjoy figuring out complex or complicated games. What I'm suggesting is that the game would have been much more successful out the gate if it had attempted to be accessible first, complex second. The majority of people, I believe, like their games to be intuitive.
The problem with Pre-CU, and why I feel they were justified to change it, is that they had designed a niche market game but were paying for a mainstream license -- they needed a game that was accessible to more people.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
I would sooooo not play your version of SWG either. A) Alpha classes kill PvP. 10x greater or 1.5x greater, both just lead to people crying, "unfair," and refusing to get involved in group fights where the alpha class is involved. (Unless that alpha class is hopelessly outnumbered, in which case it still isn't any fun. Re-grinding is booooring.
If it were my game, I doubt I would include an actual "Jedi" profession, to keep it true to the canon-timeline. Instead, I would have quests/events to unlock a character's Force Sensitivity, and then have quests to unlock Force skill trees (yes, these you'd have to grind up.) These would add new specials and abilities to your character (building/weilding lightsabers, force heal, force lightning, etc.) but you never leave the standard templates; you never become a "Jedi" because the only Jedi in existence at this time is Yoda, training Luke. Sure you can have someone who acquires all the Force Skills, so in essence looks and walks like a Jedi, but as they aren't actually trained as a Jedi they should be no more powerful than the regular profession templates. Okie, enough daydreaming... -d
Then you need to go play the NGE or Star Trek. You are so clueless you give it a WHOLE new meaning.
Pretty strange that when the NGE came out everyone was a Jedi ... so I guess if the option or chance to be come a Jedi in game existed MOST people would be working torward it.
Like I said... just cuz YOUR personal desires are such that you would not be a jedi doesnt mean that Jedi shouldnt be in the game.
Go play WoW.
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
There were a lot of things wrong with the pre-CU era. Imbalances, lack of distinctive profession roles for certain professions (marksmen, for instance), exclusive content for only certain professions, etc. The population spread among professions was a sure sign of a problematic game, since most players either wanted a bounty hunter or a Jedi. The macro system that allowed players to "bot" their characters. And many, many bugs.
First of all it's probably a better idea to reference an elite profession when talking about imbalances. As far as exclusive profession content for I don't see a problem with this as long as you do it for alll professions. The reason the population was spread over only a few professions was a sign that there was a lot of work needed to fix many of them. So I agree with you there. I also agree that the macro system was probably not a good idea. And as much as it pains me to say this I agree with Obraik that buffs became a huge suckage of time and money. Although most of the time I could get buffed for free from a guild friend. I think it's clear that they rushed the product out of beta and they had a few "DUH" moments like not having space, vehicles or Jedi as part of SWG. So they wasted precious time needed to fix bugs, profession imbalances and add content on getting expansions and publishes out to fix these issues. In the meantime professions like Pistoleer were borked while others like TKM were too powerful. They moved it out of Beta wat too soon. Now they're chasing their tails with one over reaction after another. Kinda of like trying to regain control of a car while travelling on ice at 60 mph.
A) Alpha classes kill PvP. 10x greater or 1.5x greater, both just lead to people crying, "unfair," and refusing to get involved in group fights where the alpha class is involved. (Unless that alpha class is hopelessly outnumbered, in which case it still isn't any fun. Re-grinding is booooring.
If it were my game, I doubt I would include an actual "Jedi" profession, to keep it true to the canon-timeline. Instead, I would have quests/events to unlock a character's Force Sensitivity, and then have quests to unlock Force skill trees (yes, these you'd have to grind up.) These would add new specials and abilities to your character (building/weilding lightsabers, force heal, force lightning, etc.) but you never leave the standard templates; you never become a "Jedi" because the only Jedi in existence at this time is Yoda, training Luke. Sure you can have someone who acquires all the Force Skills, so in essence looks and walks like a Jedi, but as they aren't actually trained as a Jedi they should be no more powerful than the regular profession templates. Okie, enough daydreaming... -d
A) Yes an Alpha class would be bad for general PVP. They would have to make a serperate GCW for Jedi. Like a Force war or Jedi/Sith war.
Re-grinding can be boring but it can also be fun if done with friends/guildmates. If there were also quests to do for xp as well you could have a choice.
Jedi has to be part of SWG. It's a huge draw. Most everyone who has ever seen Star Wars growing up wanted to be a Jedi like Luke Skywalker. As we've seen, however, there will always be those players that don't want to be a Jedi or do the grind needed and there are professions for them to choose from as well. Some people just want to be crafters or entertainers or role players and there are professions for them. For those that don't have the time or desire to grind Jedi there are professions that might even allow them to be nearly as powerful with only a fraction of the time needed to get there like melee defense stackers.
I have no problem having an alpha class. shouldn't the people who put in hours of work have some kind of reward for it? the way it used to be, jedi was something to look forward to. it was a reward for hard work and dedication to improving your character. the idea of everyone being able to be a jedi from the start was a big mistake! now the game is jedi wars. but who can blame them. if you have only 1 choice for your character and are stuck in it forever, given the options who wouldn't chose jedi. the old skills system was the best, you could mix and create hybrid professions. you could make your character truly unique. the game today is the same no matter what profession you do. its sad to see so many people who loved the old swg, we now have no place to turn
Originally posted by BCuse I have no problem having an alpha class. shouldn't the people who put in hours of work have some kind of reward for it? the way it used to be, jedi was something to look forward to. it was a reward for hard work and dedication to improving your character. the idea of everyone being able to be a jedi from the start was a big mistake! now the game is jedi wars. but who can blame them. if you have only 1 choice for your character and are stuck in it forever, given the options who wouldn't chose jedi. the old skills system was the best, you could mix and create hybrid professions. you could make your character truly unique. the game today is the same no matter what profession you do. its sad to see so many people who loved the old swg, we now have no place to turn
well why not have a couple of alpha classes then so not everyone had to be a jedi?
i remember people daily spilling forth awesome ideas for mandalores, and playable nightsisters, and uber space combat smugglers ....
seeing a bunch of jedi running around all the time talking trash back in the pre-cu pre-nge days always gave the game a cheesy feel ... its why i barely ever played my jedi ... i felt too much like 5 year old retard playing with star wars toys ...
Originally posted by BCuse I have no problem having an alpha class. shouldn't the people who put in hours of work have some kind of reward for it? the way it used to be, jedi was something to look forward to. it was a reward for hard work and dedication to improving your character. the idea of everyone being able to be a jedi from the start was a big mistake! now the game is jedi wars. but who can blame them. if you have only 1 choice for your character and are stuck in it forever, given the options who wouldn't chose jedi. the old skills system was the best, you could mix and create hybrid professions. you could make your character truly unique. the game today is the same no matter what profession you do. its sad to see so many people who loved the old swg, we now have no place to turn
Agreed BCuse. I can also understand on how some might be upset if there was jedi EVERYWHERE.... I would too most likely. So a realistic, well thought out death peanalty and/or xp loss would help keep the number of jedi down. I think MOST people (Jedi that is) if they know what the rules are up front won't have a problem with it.
There can't be anything stronger than a Jedi 1v1. People really shouldn't have a problem with this. Jedi IS at the top of the food chain. In most cases, like in mine, It took me 1 and 1/2 yrs to make jedi and i played like 35 hrs a week. So if I put that much time and work into it why shouldn't I be just a little stronger than any other mastered profession?
I once took on 2 BHs at one time. The fight lasted EASILY 90 mins cuz I kept running away and regening my force. I had not vehicle and once they attacked I couldnt take it out anyways. So ... I kept killing their vehicle, but they must have had a crate of them cuz they kept coming after me.
I finally ran my tail off and got to a shuttle. Once I got out of there and after 90 mins of this, BOTH BHs sent me a tell and said what a GREAT fight it was. You think that they could have had that kind of fight/battle with any other profession? I seriously doubt it. I miss those days.
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Having cool glowrods and force powers should be enough. Give them jedi-only content... or Jedi only PVP.
Everyone should have their own niche. Bt there's no reason a Jedi should be able to take anything down faster than a master pistoleer... or Bounty Hunter, etc.
Luke never turned the tide and did anything really special because he was a Jedi. He didn't take on armies of well trained experts... hell Fett almost took him down, a rancor almost ate him. Even the Death Star shot probably could have been duplicated had they more fighters and more runs.
And to go back pre-episode 4... Jedi were killed by freaking robots in episode 2, by clone troopers in 3. Sure, they did amazing things, but they weren't Superman.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde There should be no Alpha Class. Having cool glowrods and force powers should be enough. Give them jedi-only content... or Jedi only PVP. Everyone should have their own niche. Bt there's no reason a Jedi should be able to take anything down faster than a master pistoleer... or Bounty Hunter, etc. Luke never turned the tide and did anything really special because he was a Jedi. He didn't take on armies of well trained experts... hell Fett almost took him down, a rancor almost ate him. Even the Death Star shot probably could have been duplicated had they more fighters and more runs. And to go back pre-episode 4... Jedi were killed by freaking robots in episode 2, by clone troopers in 3. Sure, they did amazing things, but they weren't Superman.
Shayde .... go play star trek. You are one of those people that just didn't want to be a jedi and you want to impose your own personal feeeling on everyone else. You prolly just too lazy to put in the work that was involved to open the jedi slot so go cry me a river. .... you will NEVER take Jedi out of Star Wars so go play another game.
Woops ... sorry you have ... like me.
I guess Luke didn't kick everyones butt when he went to rescue Solo from Jabba????????
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Thats a good idea, i have no problem with 2 alpha classes. the 2nd could be bounty hunter! they could have added more to pvp with enhancing the player bounties, not removing them totaly. It should be a hard to achieve and limited. i remember the old days when jedi first started appearing. i thought it was so cool to just see one! thats the way it should be. it didnt bother me that they were superior to me. i figured they earned it! it made me want to earn it myself. if i never made it so what! the game had so many other options to offer me. i agree with those that say it should follow the movies more. if yoda was the only jedi, how can you have a galaxy full of jedi? the idea of only having force sensitive skills but not actually being a jedi is a good one.
Originally posted by Sago Shayde .... go play star trek. You are one of those people that just didn't want to be a jedi and you want to impose your own personal feeeling on everyone else. You prolly just too lazy to put in the work that was involved to open the jedi slot so go cry me a river. .... you will NEVER take Jedi out of Star Wars so go play another game. Woops ... sorry you have ... like me. I guess Luke didn't kick everyones butt when he went to rescue Solo from Jabba????????
Personal feelings? I'm just looking at the examples of the movies, tempred with the fact that once the Jedi became an alpha class (CU anyone?).. if you weren't a Jedi, you were NOTHING. Yeah, great for the game. Really stellar gameplay. At least pre-cu a master swordsman or a BH could go toe to toe with them... sure it wasn't easy, but you could.
And not everyone on Jabba's barge was A MASTER OF THEIR SPECIALTY. At best most were hired thugs barely above meatlumps. Fett almost had Luke until Han made his jetpack misfire. In Episode 2 and 3, Jedi were wiped out by many.
Not everyone played the game to weild a glowstick, and just because you hologround or humped the village, doesn't make you a "leetdood" who deserves to beat everything ingame. Jedi already had for free, the healing of a TKA, the melee of a swordsman, and all the other jedi tricks. The idea that they should not only be GOD mode, but deserve to be god mode is one of the biggest reasons SWG went downhill.
Once they lost permadeath and TEFs and bounties... they deserved nothing more.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Comments
Quit falling for SOE's spin. The ONLY ones I have ever heard claim the players thought it was hard was the LEC and SOE marketting departments. Pre-CU everyone felt the game was excessively EASY because you could max out a template in about 2 weeks.
SWG's system was not complex, it was just robust. Quit listening to Torres and Smedley try to convice everyone that the NGE is what everyone wanted so they could justify cramming it in.
I am not falling for SOE's spin I just have read countless posts by complainers on the SWG forums since I started playing and it seems they are the only players that got what they wanted and as for complex well pre-cu was by far more complex and yes robust.
The last thing I would wanna ever do is believe what SOE says and my OP was just an observation of what I thought was a major reason SWG was ruined.
{(RIP)} SWG
I would sooooo not play your version of SWG either.
A) Alpha classes kill PvP. 10x greater or 1.5x greater, both just lead to people crying, "unfair," and refusing to get involved in group fights where the alpha class is involved. (Unless that alpha class is hopelessly outnumbered, in which case it still isn't any fun.
If it were my game, I doubt I would include an actual "Jedi" profession, to keep it true to the canon-timeline.
Okie, enough daydreaming...
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
I would sooooo not play your version of SWG either.
A) Alpha classes kill PvP. 10x greater or 1.5x greater, both just lead to people crying, "unfair," and refusing to get involved in group fights where the alpha class is involved. (Unless that alpha class is hopelessly outnumbered, in which case it still isn't any fun.
If it were my game, I doubt I would include an actual "Jedi" profession, to keep it true to the canon-timeline.
Okie, enough daydreaming...
-d
I would play your version duggo. There is just so much diversity you could have had with Force skills being elite-abilities, the only problem is you would be limited to one or two. trees, and maybe have 30+ trees. Something for crafting, something for combat, something for defense, there would be no end really. The becoming a jedi thing could have been a very long story planned out over a couple of years and moving the timeline to coincide with the actual SWG timeline. or whatever, yeah there is definitely a lot of ideas there but nobody it seems can think of any idea except the NGE being a decent one at SOE HQ. but so enough daydreaming.
SWG pre-CU wasn't all that complexed. I can't believe I'n seeing people write how hard the game was to understand and play.
SWG was my very first on-line mmorpg I ever played and it didn't take me long to figure it out. Not only did I figure it out quickly but I made a ton of credits doing it.
All it needed was a bit of tweaking on some aspects of the game and not a complete moronic overhaul like it got.
I can't believe people thought it was hard. I think they need to go look at other games then. I was a mmorpg noob when SWG came out and I didn't find it too difficult
There are only 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't
So if accessibility was never an issue and the game was nearly perfect, needing only a bit of tweaking, what, in your opinion, kept the game from aquiring and keeping over 300k subscriptions?
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am really curious to hear from people who found no major flaw with pre-CU as to why it was such a limited success.
With the multitude of Star Wars fans, if the game was accessible and super-fantastic, it should have beat WoW to the 1mil+ tally, but it didn't.
The way I see it, subscription levels brought about CU/NGE, not forum whining.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
I think the problem was we didn't know what we had.
There were a lot of problems Pre-CU. Stuff was broken, professions sucked etc etc
Had we known what SOE was going to do I bet we would have shut up.
Just a question I want to throw out there since I have no idea what the answer is:
What game has the highest subscription and how many people is it? or a top 5?
There are only 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't
okay duggo,
I am willing to bit on this question.
Frist off we are all basing the "success" of swg against WoW, lets face it pre-WoW any game that had 300k to 500k subscriptions was a considered a very good game at attracting players. before WoW it was not subs but how long a game lasted that was a benchmark for success.
now on to why I feel swg pre-Cu was not the killer mmorpg.
a. content. all of the quests in the game had a very similar feel to them. fetch, carry, escort, kill bob over there. while this is not bad, it was very frustrating to be heading to to kill bob over there or deliver fred the package and watch someone else kill them off.
b. content: when they had the first story arc going all of my guild would tear off and do it, this was great. then in one chapeter it came out that the imperials were winning, suddenly the arc was extended for an extra two weeks with th posting for the first time BEFORE the arc was done that the imps were winning one finally. sort of a slap in the teeth for imps. If there were more story arcs built into the game or added then i think you would have seen a great retention for the quest type of players.
c. nerfs: game balance in my personal opinion should never be addressed via nerfing, especially based on player whining.
d. Jedi: speak as a pre-cu jedi, yes i was templated too. the hologrind was the wrong way to do the implimentation of the jedi. frankly the village was alot better as it did nto "force" you to break up yoru template to attempt to get to jedi. In my perfect world how you obtained jedi would have been thus:
when you created your character an random generator woudl assign you pois, quests, maybe even some need x rep with y faction for each player, this way there would have been no simple pattern to copy to get to jedi. as you explored the game and did "things" one day your character would have an epiphany, and then a completely random npc would send you mail to meet them somewhere to learn about yoru destiny.
e. cannon confusion: they should never had set it between ep iv and v., especially with jedi, bh, tka, and the new items they they kept putting in from the earlier movies. one of the things that drobve me personally nuts was to see the flame wars about cannon this and eu that.
CU came about because of WoW, if you look at CU and WoW they are really hella close together.
NGE came about from the desire to push the game to consoles, if you do nto beleive that then why did prima have a guide to swg console ready in december after the nge push in november?
It's a bit outdated now, but it'll give you an idea of the numbers: http://www.mmogchart.com/
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
As a pre-cu player myself, I haven't forgotten what gameplay was like in those days. There was always something to complain about, but as long as the servers were up and running, I would log on for quite a few hours on a regular basis.
Blame can be placed anywhere and everywhere, but the ultimate control lies with the company as they decide what is implemented and what is not. I remember being a n00b and seeing all the "UBER" players in their gear and all their cool toys. But I figured they had put in the time to earn what they got, or cheated people in game to get where they were at, and it was up to me to decide where I stood in that universe.
I ended up becoming fairly uber myself, and by the time I had left, I had been soloing krayts. I had saved over 20 premium pearls for my freshly unlocked jedi and was in the process of completing the trials. I had over 10 Anti-decay kits and I hadn't even been playing a whole year myself. (Of course, I did spend an unhealthy amount of time playing.) The changes prior to my leaving had improved the game quite a bit, and while gameplay was pretty stagnate at that point, it was comfortable and enjoyable. My bigger complaints were over people in the community as opposed to the general game design.
But as the CU came, I found that my character lost all his flair. With or without my gear, my avatar no longer retained his uberness, and to my dismay, nerfed beyond repair. I had been able to take down player jedi in duals with great consistentcy. After the CU, I found myself running from low level mobs just to survive. The time I had invested became worthless, and I canceled my subscription.
I tried the NGE free months later. It was fun, starting off as a new character. The gameplay was different, but remnants of the old system brought back a level of familiarity. But it just wasn't the same.
Since the universe revolved around combat, there were always balancing issues. I took pride in knowing that I had designed a solid build to fight jedi, but was also disappointed. PVP was generally a rush for me, but lost its fun. On my server, the pvp groups would almost always have too many and never enough.
Even with all its flaws, I sure miss how it used to be. The players did want change, but adjustments not a completely different game. I'm still trying to find a game to recapture the magic, but I doubt I will.
i dont hate the pre cu era, i started playing just after pre pub 9 and i wish i was playing since launch.
The people who complained about SWG and who ultimately left for WOW that I knew had these complaints:
1.They were bored. They had done everything there was to do.
2.Combat as in PVP combat wasn't balanced.
3.It wasn't Star Wars.
There have been two huge overhauls to the combat system and the remaining players who like to PVP still have all three of these complaints.
Maybe, instead of trying to please this sector of the player base alone, the developers ought to focus on other areas of the game? Novel idea?
Undoubtedly there are people who enjoy figuring out complex or complicated games. What I'm suggesting is that the game would have been much more successful out the gate if it had attempted to be accessible first, complex second. The majority of people, I believe, like their games to be intuitive.
The problem with Pre-CU, and why I feel they were justified to change it, is that they had designed a niche market game but were paying for a mainstream license -- they needed a game that was accessible to more people.
-d
Waiting on: Pirates of the Burning Sea and Pirates of the Carribean Online
Then you need to go play the NGE or Star Trek. You are so clueless you give it a WHOLE new meaning.
Pretty strange that when the NGE came out everyone was a Jedi ... so I guess if the option or chance to be come a Jedi in game existed MOST people would be working torward it.
Like I said... just cuz YOUR personal desires are such that you would not be a jedi doesnt mean that Jedi shouldnt be in the game.
Go play WoW.
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
A) Yes an Alpha class would be bad for general PVP. They would have to make a serperate GCW for Jedi. Like a Force war or Jedi/Sith war.
Jedi has to be part of SWG. It's a huge draw. Most everyone who has ever seen Star Wars growing up wanted to be a Jedi like Luke Skywalker. As we've seen, however, there will always be those players that don't want to be a Jedi or do the grind needed and there are professions for them to choose from as well. Some people just want to be crafters or entertainers or role players and there are professions for them. For those that don't have the time or desire to grind Jedi there are professions that might even allow them to be nearly as powerful with only a fraction of the time needed to get there like melee defense stackers.
well why not have a couple of alpha classes then so not everyone had to be a jedi?
i remember people daily spilling forth awesome ideas for mandalores, and playable nightsisters, and uber space combat smugglers ....
seeing a bunch of jedi running around all the time talking trash back in the pre-cu pre-nge days always gave the game a cheesy feel ... its why i barely ever played my jedi ... i felt too much like 5 year old retard playing with star wars toys ...
Agreed BCuse. I can also understand on how some might be upset if there was jedi EVERYWHERE.... I would too most likely. So a realistic, well thought out death peanalty and/or xp loss would help keep the number of jedi down. I think MOST people (Jedi that is) if they know what the rules are up front won't have a problem with it.
There can't be anything stronger than a Jedi 1v1. People really shouldn't have a problem with this. Jedi IS at the top of the food chain. In most cases, like in mine, It took me 1 and 1/2 yrs to make jedi and i played like 35 hrs a week. So if I put that much time and work into it why shouldn't I be just a little stronger than any other mastered profession?
I once took on 2 BHs at one time. The fight lasted EASILY 90 mins cuz I kept running away and regening my force. I had not vehicle and once they attacked I couldnt take it out anyways. So ... I kept killing their vehicle, but they must have had a crate of them cuz they kept coming after me.
I finally ran my tail off and got to a shuttle. Once I got out of there and after 90 mins of this, BOTH BHs sent me a tell and said what a GREAT fight it was. You think that they could have had that kind of fight/battle with any other profession? I seriously doubt it. I miss those days.
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
There should be no Alpha Class.
Having cool glowrods and force powers should be enough. Give them jedi-only content... or Jedi only PVP.
Everyone should have their own niche. Bt there's no reason a Jedi should be able to take anything down faster than a master pistoleer... or Bounty Hunter, etc.
Luke never turned the tide and did anything really special because he was a Jedi. He didn't take on armies of well trained experts... hell Fett almost took him down, a rancor almost ate him. Even the Death Star shot probably could have been duplicated had they more fighters and more runs.
And to go back pre-episode 4... Jedi were killed by freaking robots in episode 2, by clone troopers in 3. Sure, they did amazing things, but they weren't Superman.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Shayde .... go play star trek. You are one of those people that just didn't want to be a jedi and you want to impose your own personal feeeling on everyone else. You prolly just too lazy to put in the work that was involved to open the jedi slot so go cry me a river. .... you will NEVER take Jedi out of Star Wars so go play another game.
Woops ... sorry you have ... like me.
I guess Luke didn't kick everyones butt when he went to rescue Solo from Jabba????????
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
Personal feelings? I'm just looking at the examples of the movies, tempred with the fact that once the Jedi became an alpha class (CU anyone?).. if you weren't a Jedi, you were NOTHING. Yeah, great for the game. Really stellar gameplay. At least pre-cu a master swordsman or a BH could go toe to toe with them... sure it wasn't easy, but you could.
And not everyone on Jabba's barge was A MASTER OF THEIR SPECIALTY. At best most were hired thugs barely above meatlumps. Fett almost had Luke until Han made his jetpack misfire. In Episode 2 and 3, Jedi were wiped out by many.
Not everyone played the game to weild a glowstick, and just because you hologround or humped the village, doesn't make you a "leetdood" who deserves to beat everything ingame. Jedi already had for free, the healing of a TKA, the melee of a swordsman, and all the other jedi tricks. The idea that they should not only be GOD mode, but deserve to be god mode is one of the biggest reasons SWG went downhill.
Once they lost permadeath and TEFs and bounties... they deserved nothing more.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0