Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As a person who doesn't care about P2W aspects, as they've always been there in some way in these games be it official or black market. I just laugh at the ever changing definitions people throw around about this subject, which typically seems to boil down to nothing more than I like this game vs I don't like this game.
I mean in one instance a xp pot is considered P2W in another being able to buy your way to the top skill tier is not.. It's simply hilarious.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I just pretend the game doesn't or never existed. IO wouldn't trust CCP as far as i could throw them,past has proven that. Just the fact they created such a game design tells me not to ever touch anything CCP makes EVER.
Oh well eventually Eve will be near defunct and SC will take over with all new drama.SC is already completely pay to win,you want that ship??Too bad pay me,nothing in game is earned it's all in the CS.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The pay to win aspect of this game is not one person buying skills or characters. They are one person and can only fly a single ship at a time and anyone who has focused their skills in the same ship has the same bonuses because they cap out.
The pay to win aspect of this game is PLEX. CCP introduced PLEX to get their share of the non-sanctioned RMT that plagues this game. I do not blame them. It's pretty well known that certain alliances participate in non-sanctioned transactions. Probably many more large alliances who do but remain under the radar even to it's own members. Someone's suppling all that crap and it takes a lot of manpower. Hell most members of these alliances probably have no clue. Regardless enter PLEX. People can take money and replace their fleet losses at the blink of an eye making attrition impossible even if they have very little space. Some major corps / alliances have even been caught doing just this with non-sanctioned RMT transactions.
PLEX also supports non-sanctioned RMT because it is a isk to cash measurement. So all a alliance needs is some sort of income (regardless of where it comes from) to use PLEX through RMT. Making attrition impossible as long as there is a way for a fleet to pay for it.
Lets say CCP really wanted to crack down on big suppliers which rarely they do. RARELY. A alliance can stages a walkout of the game and if they are large enough can bring CCP to it's knees. This has been done! So effective that it has literally made this company change course multiple times. When people say pay 2 win. That is pay 2 win to me. It can make attrition impossible if the opposing alliance uses it. Some do Some don't. Most people keep the argument at new players using PLEX or whatever or "A" player. Not corporations or alliances.
Im assuming OP did not ever play EVE, skills are capped and most PVPers focus on a certain limited number of ships and they max out those skills and that equates to about 6 months of training/1 year.
If you have all the skill points in the game that isn't win, expecially if you don't know how to fit and fly your ship. I've destroyed players in T2 ships in1v1 with a t1 variant of the ship they are flying or even on trial accounts When I get bored but don't want to pay my sub I make a trial account, and what do you know in 7 days of training I can fly a decently fitted ship in PVP. People should do some research before opening their mouth and seemingly seem like someone who just likes to rant about anything. Also as mentioned by others, it's a very nice way for newer people to catch up to veterans, a lot of people just refuse to try the game because they felt they could never catch up, well now you can and you can use ingame earned money for it as well. A reason, tho not very founded as again if you focus training for a specific role, you will be at the same SP level as a veteran player because there are just soo many skills that get used when flying a single ship.
As a person who doesn't care about P2W aspects, as they've always been there in some way in these games be it official or black market. I just laugh at the ever changing definitions people throw around about this subject, which typically seems to boil down to nothing more than I like this game vs I don't like this game.
I mean in one instance a xp pot is considered P2W in another being able to buy your way to the top skill tier is not.. It's simply hilarious.
Yeah, WoW let's you buy a max level character in bad gear and its "OMG WoW is so p2w, it's destroying MMOs it's so p2w" but Eve let's you top of the line everything and suddenly it's "well, its not p2w because he didn't actually win anything, he can still be shot down".
The mental gymnastics some people are going through to argue this isn't Pay to Win is truly World class Olympic level.
As a person who doesn't care about P2W aspects, as they've always been there in some way in these games be it official or black market. I just laugh at the ever changing definitions people throw around about this subject, which typically seems to boil down to nothing more than I like this game vs I don't like this game.
I mean in one instance a xp pot is considered P2W in another being able to buy your way to the top skill tier is not.. It's simply hilarious.
Yeah, WoW let's you buy a max level character in bad gear and its "OMG WoW is so p2w, it's destroying MMOs it's so p2w" but Eve let's you top of the line everything and suddenly it's "well, its not p2w because he didn't actually win anything, he can still be shot down".
The mental gymnastics some people are going through to argue this isn't Pay to Win is truly World class Olympic level.
Apparently it takes an Olympic gymnast to explain to the ignorant how it isn't, or dispute incomparable examples which this thread is full of.
At the heart of it is the lack of understanding between the simple terms "win" vs "advantage" nor do they comprehend the minimal impact this advantage has on the overall gameplay.
At least the people crying PLEX is P2W are making a more reasonable argument, though being able to buy the best ship doesn't mean you'll be able to find a competent pilot to fly it, and in EVE even Titans die regularly.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
you can have every skill in the game at level V, but it won't win you the fight, player skill will be the determining factor every time, and if someone who already had the experience and the skill of pvp'ing in Eve, then they wouldn't need to skill out a new toon other than for the 'bling effect' as chances are they just painted a huge target on themselves and everyone who can is going to try and kill them, and most likely, they will succeed, a lot, which means they stay docked, pretty much all the time.
EVE is P2W (insert PAY2ADVANTAGE or official RMT instead if you're gonna argue about "winning" here) game for a long time already.
In EVE Online you CAN buy character for real money from other player in line with game Terms of Service. In EVE Online all sings "on earth and heaven" say that planned Station content will be monetized with real money. Only real question is whether it will be only cosmetics or more. In EVE Online you can buy in game gold for $$ in line with game Terms of Service.
Injectors are just another official P2W / P2A / RMT (choose what term you like most) thing in EVE.
It was only first few short years when EVE was not an official RMT game and was pure P2P one. EVE quickly went RMT / microtransaction route, long before it got mononocle cash shop.
EVE is P2W (insert PAY2ADVANTAGE or official RMT instead if you're gonna argue about "winning" here) game for a long time already.
In EVE Online you CAN buy character for real money from other player in line with game Terms of Service. In EVE Online all sings "on earth and heaven" say that planned Station content will be monetized with real money. Only real question is whether it will be only cosmetics or more. In EVE Online you can buy in game gold for $$ in line with game Terms of Service.
Injectors are just another official P2W / P2A / RMT (choose what term you like most) thing in EVE.
It was only first few short years when EVE was not an official RMT game and was pure P2P one. EVE quickly went RMT / microtransaction route, long before it got mononocle cash shop.
Yet despite everything you mention here EVE continues to be one of the most entertaining MMORPGs on the market and enjoyed by most of its players, whether they purchase any of said advantages.
So if there is little impact and the playerbase is largely accepting of them, what again is the issue?
BTW number of players logged in this weekend seemed quite strong despite the Hallmark holiday though the alliance leadership was a bit pissed the US contingent was largely inactive.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
These kinds of threads are amusing, and indicative of the fact that EVE is simply too complex for the average "gamer" to grasp...
It doesn't take years to max out the skills for a single ship class. After that, how much you spend is irrelevant. Most serious combat in EVE is group-based, and in those situations, the skill levels of the individual pilots become relatively unimportant.
If an enemy fleet calls you as primary target, you may live one or two seconds longer if the pilots in that fleet don't all have maxed combat skills, but the difference will be negligible, regardless of your skill levels.
Combat experience and understanding the game systems are orders of magnitude more important than getting a bunch of skills to level V.
And seriously .. you have no problem with a sub game going super P2W?
It bothers me in both P2P and F2P games. I prefer a flat monthly fee without any of this nickel-and-diming, but that's increasingly rare.
Because that practice is no longer viable to keep healthy 150% profit margin to keep a company like EA or Blizzard running. There use to be a time when servers used to cost as low as 1000$, bandwidth charge monthly would cost about 1000$; it was perfectly possible to charge a meager sum every month and keep a healthy profit after paying taxes, bills and employee salary. Time since then has changed. Now servers are not toasters from 1990, player number increased by an extraordinary margin, bandwidth consumption has increased by even larger number than player explosion and most ISP now have a special branch for online game companies that ask for outrageous amount of money under a contract which also states that the price may increase depending on usage increase. Indie companies can still do away with their very small player base but big companies can't do what these small fries do.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
I think OP misunderstands something. There is a fundamental difference in the EVE RMT system than most MMOs. In EVE, CCP only acts as a broker between 2 players taking their cut of the deal. These are not two person transactions where the player purchases directly from the publisher. These are 3 person transactions. It's not a P2W system. It's more of a trade between players system.
I do see 3 major drawbacks though. There's far too many multiboxed accounts where there aren't players behind the avatars. The economy has become super bloated and has grown beyond what should be supported by it's current live player base. (Though EVE is hardly alone in this) And the 3rd is that it has allowed the current player power-base to solidify its choke hold in the game through the use of RMT (Ironically, it's the RMT from other players that has kept those in power, in power) instead of though playing the game alone.
"A bizarre twist on that story has since emerged when another player named IronBank created a brand-new character and used around $28,000 worth of injectors to max out every possible skill he could acquire to level 5. A total of around 2,846 injectors were used to boost the new character up to 473,344,000 skill points that would normally take over 20 years of skill training time to acquire. Those injectors are currently worth over 1.7 trillion ISK or about 1,423 PLEX, which would currently cost between $21,161 and $28,446 to buy with cash."
Is this the ultimate p2w or what?
I don't see how this players spend affects my enjoyment of the game to be honest.
As a person who doesn't care about P2W aspects, as they've always been there in some way in these games be it official or black market. I just laugh at the ever changing definitions people throw around about this subject, which typically seems to boil down to nothing more than I like this game vs I don't like this game.
I mean in one instance a xp pot is considered P2W in another being able to buy your way to the top skill tier is not.. It's simply hilarious.
Yeah, WoW let's you buy a max level character in bad gear and its "OMG WoW is so p2w, it's destroying MMOs it's so p2w" but Eve let's you top of the line everything and suddenly it's "well, its not p2w because he didn't actually win anything, he can still be shot down".
The mental gymnastics some people are going through to argue this isn't Pay to Win is truly World class Olympic level.
Apparently it takes an Olympic gymnast to explain to the ignorant how it isn't, or dispute incomparable examples which this thread is full of.
At the heart of it is the lack of understanding between the simple terms "win" vs "advantage" nor do they comprehend the minimal impact this advantage has on the overall gameplay.
At least the people crying PLEX is P2W are making a more reasonable argument, though being able to buy the best ship doesn't mean you'll be able to find a competent pilot to fly it, and in EVE even Titans die regularly.
Hence the point of my post, most of what people call "winning" isn't winning, it's simple monetary advantage. WHich makes the whole carousel of what is defined as paying to win, all the more hilarious... As I said it boils down to whether a person wants to shine a bad light on a game or not. Nothing more nothing less, when they want to they'll stretch whatever they can into some proverbial form of winning.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not that I have any stake in this debate, but why does the argument of it not being PW2 only sit on the scenario of high end player vs newbie? What about two new players or two players who have played for a few months or a year? Won't I have an advantage over someone of equal skill or close to my skill?
heh, only 28K$? Apparently OP never checked Atlantica Online where players have put 50K~150K$ on their toons. And you can't really P2W in EVE-Online, you're pretty stupid if you try, even if you max every skill, you'll still get "pwn3d" by a few newbies.
I thought P2W where about items/skills that only could be bought via a cashshop and not via drops or grinding. Well It's used to be like that, I guess nowadays as soon as someone buys anything no matter if sead thing can be obtained in game for free with just a little more time is P2W.
The only saving grace that will help EvE from losing its player base is having a PVE server only.
My reaction exactly, asking for PvE server for a PvP focused game, no matter how much i detest this kind of game, i can't agree with comments such as this.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Comments
This other players actions had no effect on our gameplay nor could he come in system and kick our arses, the 6 of us would totally destroy him.
Most folks don't understand how EVE really works, but whatever, EVEs the most "P2W" game ever.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I love reading about P2W explosions. Here's my all time favorite.
https://www.themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow?nopaging=1
I mean in one instance a xp pot is considered P2W in another being able to buy your way to the top skill tier is not.. It's simply hilarious.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
IO wouldn't trust CCP as far as i could throw them,past has proven that.
Just the fact they created such a game design tells me not to ever touch anything CCP makes EVER.
Oh well eventually Eve will be near defunct and SC will take over with all new drama.SC is already completely pay to win,you want that ship??Too bad pay me,nothing in game is earned it's all in the CS.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The pay to win aspect of this game is PLEX. CCP introduced PLEX to get their share of the non-sanctioned RMT that plagues this game. I do not blame them. It's pretty well known that certain alliances participate in non-sanctioned transactions. Probably many more large alliances who do but remain under the radar even to it's own members. Someone's suppling all that crap and it takes a lot of manpower. Hell most members of these alliances probably have no clue. Regardless enter PLEX. People can take money and replace their fleet losses at the blink of an eye making attrition impossible even if they have very little space. Some major corps / alliances have even been caught doing just this with non-sanctioned RMT transactions.
PLEX also supports non-sanctioned RMT because it is a isk to cash measurement. So all a alliance needs is some sort of income (regardless of where it comes from) to use PLEX through RMT. Making attrition impossible as long as there is a way for a fleet to pay for it.
Lets say CCP really wanted to crack down on big suppliers which rarely they do. RARELY. A alliance can stages a walkout of the game and if they are large enough can bring CCP to it's knees. This has been done! So effective that it has literally made this company change course multiple times. When people say pay 2 win. That is pay 2 win to me. It can make attrition impossible if the opposing alliance uses it. Some do Some don't. Most people keep the argument at new players using PLEX or whatever or "A" player. Not corporations or alliances.
If you have all the skill points in the game that isn't win, expecially if you don't know how to fit and fly your ship. I've destroyed players in T2 ships in1v1 with a t1 variant of the ship they are flying or even on trial accounts When I get bored but don't want to pay my sub I make a trial account, and what do you know in 7 days of training I can fly a decently fitted ship in PVP. People should do some research before opening their mouth and seemingly seem like someone who just likes to rant about anything. Also as mentioned by others, it's a very nice way for newer people to catch up to veterans, a lot of people just refuse to try the game because they felt they could never catch up, well now you can and you can use ingame earned money for it as well. A reason, tho not very founded as again if you focus training for a specific role, you will be at the same SP level as a veteran player because there are just soo many skills that get used when flying a single ship.
At the heart of it is the lack of understanding between the simple terms "win" vs "advantage" nor do they comprehend the minimal impact this advantage has on the overall gameplay.
At least the people crying PLEX is P2W are making a more reasonable argument, though being able to buy the best ship doesn't mean you'll be able to find a competent pilot to fly it, and in EVE even Titans die regularly.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In EVE Online you CAN buy character for real money from other player in line with game Terms of Service.
In EVE Online all sings "on earth and heaven" say that planned Station content will be monetized with real money. Only real question is whether it will be only cosmetics or more.
In EVE Online you can buy in game gold for $$ in line with game Terms of Service.
Injectors are just another official P2W / P2A / RMT (choose what term you like most) thing in EVE.
It was only first few short years when EVE was not an official RMT game and was pure P2P one. EVE quickly went RMT / microtransaction route, long before it got mononocle cash shop.
MAGA
So if there is little impact and the playerbase is largely accepting of them, what again is the issue?
BTW number of players logged in this weekend seemed quite strong despite the Hallmark holiday though the alliance leadership was a bit pissed the US contingent was largely inactive.
As always, "life" in EVE goes on.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It doesn't take years to max out the skills for a single ship class. After that, how much you spend is irrelevant. Most serious combat in EVE is group-based, and in those situations, the skill levels of the individual pilots become relatively unimportant.
If an enemy fleet calls you as primary target, you may live one or two seconds longer if the pilots in that fleet don't all have maxed combat skills, but the difference will be negligible, regardless of your skill levels.
Combat experience and understanding the game systems are orders of magnitude more important than getting a bunch of skills to level V.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
There is a fundamental difference in the EVE RMT system than most MMOs. In EVE, CCP only acts as a broker between 2 players taking their cut of the deal. These are not two person transactions where the player purchases directly from the publisher. These are 3 person transactions. It's not a P2W system. It's more of a trade between players system.
I do see 3 major drawbacks though. There's far too many multiboxed accounts where there aren't players behind the avatars. The economy has become super bloated and has grown beyond what should be supported by it's current live player base. (Though EVE is hardly alone in this) And the 3rd is that it has allowed the current player power-base to solidify its choke hold in the game through the use of RMT (Ironically, it's the RMT from other players that has kept those in power, in power) instead of though playing the game alone.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well It's used to be like that, I guess nowadays as soon as someone buys anything no matter if sead thing can be obtained in game for free with just a little more time is P2W.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.