I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Says who? And for those in between, they can play a pve game today, and pvp game tomorrow. There is no need to do both at the same time in the same game.
And "realism" .. really? I thought the point of games is to escape realism. Otherwise why are we playing wizards and dragons instead of accountants and insurance salesman?
lol! life isnt fair man! who will craft gear and potions for us pvpers? The pvers of course! just like on a couple of mmos thats been out for years, we pvpers dont hate pve but we'd just rather spend our precious time camping world bosses where Pve really matters since it drops our gear!
Thing is some of us hate Crafting, getting the mats in general which needs pve farming, and thats where you guys come in, you guys farm the mats for us , and craft our potions! so we can use it against you in open world!
your logic of realism seems to fail hard.... just like the game Crysis and Arma its "Graphics" for example is as realistic as it gets, Aramanthar is just simply saying that adding "realistic consenquences" based on your certain actions in game can add a little flavor into games.
He wasn't saying that everything should be as realistic as REAL LIFE lol!
OP, lets call PVP what it is....GANKING. That's ALL that it is in OWPVP. I play BDO and have been in around 50 fights...ALL HAVE BEEN FROM GANKERS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! That is why the two DO NOT work together. PVErs HATE IT!!!!
OP, lets call PVP what it is....GANKING. That's ALL that it is in OWPVP. I play BDO and have been in around 50 fights...ALL HAVE BEEN FROM GANKERS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! That is why the two DO NOT work together. PVErs HATE IT!!!!
Good Point! but then again "You are still playing it" like you said, its a fair ground, the game warned you that as soon as you reached level 45 (or was it 40) that you can be freely Killed and vice versa, the game didn't force you, INSTANCED heavy games Take the multiplayer aspect of any MMOS thats what "M" means in mmo Massive MULTIPLAYER online.
I'm not against Pver's im just saying games shouldn't segregate the two just make a common ground.
just like your given example BDO is still one of the best games there is atm, because it caters to both!
Example: Final Fantasy Reborn Caters to PVER's while World of Warcraft caters to BOTH yet wow is more successful.
OP, lets call PVP what it is....GANKING. That's ALL that it is in OWPVP. I play BDO and have been in around 50 fights...ALL HAVE BEEN FROM GANKERS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! That is why the two DO NOT work together. PVErs HATE IT!!!!
Its not ganking if you choose to flag yourself for PvP. This is why some of us are arguing that pvp servers seem really pointless and pve servers are just as pointless cause all it does is separate the community and hinder diversity. Mainly flag based system with some optional pvp zones that don't hinder your gear progression is the way to go. OWPvP are suppose to be a choice, imo, not something to be forced to do.
fyi, I'm a PvPer. Not all pvpers want a gank fest, thats like a thing of the past when there were bounty hunters hunting jedi etc. I prefer the flag system.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
I wouldn't mind them removing the concept of PvP Servers and PvE Servers I don't really care for that. Regular Servers, Problem solved. Go to PvP flagged zones, you have to flag yourself if you want to find players to pwn. Its not that hard really. As a pvper I really don't see much of a point in a PvP server, I really don't.
It separates the player base and I want to feel like everyone is contributing to the game, contributing to the world, not just for themselves.
So you want everyone to play the game how you want them to play it, OK lol. What you are saying is no different than the cry babies who are gutted that this game has separate servers.
It's like you have missed the whole poin tof why the game has separate servers. The crying in this thread by so called PVP's who claim they don't need PVE's is pathetic.
You have your PVP server and PVE players have there server, why wouldn't you be happy lol.
I'll tell you why, it's because you and I know your PVP server will get boring real quick and empty. The PVE server will be thriving so you need them to make your server feel more alive.
LOL.. this is such a funny question.. of course you are alone.. some of us prefer to not have griefers running around ruining the experience and PvE offers that.. I love PvP full loot etc.. but only when it is in the game 'sense' appropriate... Kids with poor behaviour and choices and grown ups that are just idiots make that unlikely. If this remark resembles you, I hope you are offended!
So you want everyone to play the game how you want them to play it, OK lol. What you are saying is no different than the cry babies who are gutted that this game has separate servers.
It's like you have missed the whole poin tof why the game has separate servers. The crying in this thread by so called PVP's who claim they don't need PVE's is pathetic.
You have your PVP server and PVE players have there server, why wouldn't you be happy lol.
I'll tell you why, it's because you and I know your PVP server will get boring real quick and empty. The PVE server will be thriving so you need them to make your server feel more alive.
I never said I wanted everyone to play the game how I want them to play it, that's you implying and trying to put words in my mouth. Your missing the entire point of a regular server, its not because of the population I am really confused of what your saying because it has nothing to do with the point. You either misinterpreted my post or never read it in the first place. My post has nothing to do with "pvpers not needing pvers" like where the hell did you get that from lol.
I am talking about how pointless pvp servers are, it only segregates players. I'm a pvper and I don't need 24/7 flagged pvp in the open world, I want to be able to choose when to flag and choose if I want to go into a pvp zone or not. PvP and PvE shouldn't be seperate they should both contribute to each other somehow.
PvP Server, PvE Server? never heard that concept until I played later mmos that included those server types. Better to go back to the old days where it was "Name of Server", "Server Population", "Region/Timezone". There was no PvP/PvE servers. It was mainly a flag system.
I'll tell you why some mmos have seperate servers, its because of the ganking issue where on a pvp server you are toggled 24/7 on a PvE server you are not and its mainly for people who want to focus on PvE stuff. The clear solution to this is a flag system that doesn't flag you 24/7.
PvE Servers can go away AND PvP Servers can go away.
You sound ridiculous man, I'm just saying. You keep missing the point lol.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
There are many other ways to accomplish this without griefing. This isn't enough reason for this continued insistence that PvP be forced on entire games. Developers have never really cared about this sort of inflation in the first place so its a bit of a fantasy that PvP would cure some ill in that department.
The point being that non-consensual anything should be a non-starter in an entertainment business. The idea of catering to people who want to bother others and drive them away from your business is crazy. Why would any sane business privilege this sort of behavior over the desires of paying customers? It's a recipe for disaster, not a problem in search of a solution.
Hopefully we'll get past this stage of games depending on PvP for content. Sooner or later the advances in game technology will reach the AI area. The release of free game engines sparked the new Indi revolution, and maybe standardization of middleware (including AI modules) will follow.
At some point people will be making games the way they make mods and that's when things will get interesting. Taking the hardest parts of making a game out of the equation will let people with ideas focus on game systems and styles, putting things back where they were at the beginning of the 90's before graphics took off and put a lot of things out of reach, creating the "need" for AAA or go home. It could also create a better market for independent artists to collaberate with the small studios for the benefit of everyone.
There's a lot of reason for optimism in MMORPG's. Someday they may even make a persistent world PvP game that's worth a damn. You can always hope.
I think that most players are in between. This system still leaves room for sanctioned PvP like guild wars, gives protection and or justice to the other players. But it adds that elusive "realism" of crime and instant confrontation based on reason and meaning. I know, I know, you can't see how this can be done even if you could see the benefit.
Says who? And for those in between, they can play a pve game today, and pvp game tomorrow. There is no need to do both at the same time in the same game.
And "realism" .. really? I thought the point of games is to escape realism. Otherwise why are we playing wizards and dragons instead of accountants and insurance salesman?
I said that. My opinion, and I did say "I think". That was a clue there.
As far as "realism", we have characters that walk and run on the ground. Players expect some form of realism with swimming. Crafting is another place where some resemblance to realism is desired. Many want doors to open and close. Arrows to fly realistically. Water to flow or stay down. Rain and weather is often desired, even with more meaning.
The bigger issue is trying to slap PVP onto games where that playstyle doesn't fit (without modifications) or vice versa.
Yup. And it's also the first thing I think of when I hear that a game has separate PVP and PVE servers.
Once again, it's why I'm a big fan of segregated PVP zones as in DAoC, GW2, ESO, etc. People who only do one of the two things (poor sods, paid full price for half a game ) will still complain about each other ("My favorite ability got nerfed 'cause of those dam PVPers" or "why should I need to PVE to get the Sword of Ultimate Awesome?") but you know that both aspects of the game got some development thinking time instead of just tacking one on (usually the PVP) on top of the other... and the two camps can co-exist in relative grumpy peace.
The other reason I prefer those games as opposed to playing two separate games or on two separate servers is because I'm doing it all in one with the same guilds and community... something some of the posters above either don't get or don't care about.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I wouldn't mind them removing the concept of PvP Servers and PvE Servers I don't really care for that. Regular Servers, Problem solved. Go to PvP flagged zones, you have to flag yourself if you want to find players to pwn. Its not that hard really. As a pvper I really don't see much of a point in a PvP server, I really don't.
It separates the player base and I want to feel like everyone is contributing to the game, contributing to the world, not just for themselves.
So you want everyone to play the game how you want them to play it, OK lol. What you are saying is no different than the cry babies who are gutted that this game has separate servers.
It's like you have missed the whole poin tof why the game has separate servers. The crying in this thread by so called PVP's who claim they don't need PVE's is pathetic.
You have your PVP server and PVE players have there server, why wouldn't you be happy lol.
I'll tell you why, it's because you and I know your PVP server will get boring real quick and empty. The PVE server will be thriving so you need them to make your server feel more alive.
This post is extremely off base, firstly a flag system is a system that allows everyone a choice to play as they want, when they want, no one is forced into any altercation. Secondly segregation hurts the overall game, as you're spreading players out, hurting the overall community. So how is that an argument against needing PVE players?
Post edited by Distopia on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I honestly hate when some random carebear player starts passing judgement or adding their 2 cents about PVP. The opinion is biased, uninformed, and has the agenda of wanting to rid MMORPGs of player generated conflict. The motivation is typically some unresolved butthurt from another game.
With the above said, separate servers don't work (not because PVP or PVE is boring or empty as some dimwits might spout) because the developers don't know how to or can't have both coexist in their workflow.
Until that happens the best option is focusing on 1 playstyle and putting the best foot forward.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
If a game has separate PvP and PvE server - one thing is certain
One of them is going to be much worse than the other.
Over time one will thrive the other dwindles, and devs will eventually focus only on the one that thrives
Bottom line doing both PvE and PVP means one will fail longterm so it's failure from the start.
Do you have an example of this happening?
EQ1 - PvE servers dominate, PvP most got merged, Rift - PvP servers got merged big time, AoC PvP server is far more populated, DaoC FFA PvP servers gone
etc...
Over time in most games - the focus shifts heavily on either PvE or PvP - and the other gets pretty much neglected.
So it's assumed that the dwindling population is due to the developers? Seems like a hard thing to prove. I'm not saying it can't happen but that it may just be due to lack of interest of the players to stay. While unfortunate it's the end result of what the majority of the player base wants.
What can be said though is that it's a no lose situation, generally speaking. If the PvP servers were destined to be underpopulated that means that the majority didn't want to be in that environment so having a PvE server was a good idea, rather than mixing it. Plus those that are still on the PvP servers are obviously still enjoying it, despite a low population. They may have not played that title at all if there had only been a PvE option.
OP, lets call PVP what it is....GANKING. That's ALL that it is in OWPVP. I play BDO and have been in around 50 fights...ALL HAVE BEEN FROM GANKERS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! That is why the two DO NOT work together. PVErs HATE IT!!!!
I Agree with that, and one thing I could never understand is why BDO didn't have PvP and PvE servers, so you could just select which one you wanted at any given time. There are times I want to just PvE and get some stuff done and other times when I would have liked to PvP.
ESO gave you that option with Cryodil, but that left the world so much smaller and zones untouched after levelling. Rift had the flagging system, which worked quite well.
I find it amusing how games promote "play how you want to play" they should really add the disclaimer "as long as you don't mind being Ganked"
What value does FFA PvP bring to the virtual world game experience?
A material sink for the economy. Items are lost or break in combat so are constantly in need from crafters. New Dawn's latest patch gives extra exp if you are doing more damage to harder mobs. Encouraging players to bring good gear out to fight PvE mobs and to also fight challenging mobs to level up quicker. Helps good gear get lost and used up in the world instead of being hoarded in peoples banks and only getting used for sieges.
So, in other words, the only value of FFA pvp is destruction. As in literally taking something away?
No wonder games rarely bother anymore. Nothing of value lost there.
I've never played on a pvp/pve server before until I gave WoW a shot in vanilla and BC.
Different thought, and Wow PvP works well, two clear factions you know who your friends are and who your enemies are so you dont spend every second trying to cover your bung hole. Also since there is no looting there is PvP happening everywhere. So wow PvP servers thrive.
I've never played on a pvp/pve server before until I gave WoW a shot in vanilla and BC.
Different thought, and Wow PvP works well, two clear factions you know who your friends are and who your enemies are so you dont spend every second trying to cover your bung hole. Also since there is no looting there is PvP happening everywhere. So wow PvP servers thrive.
Yeah, WoW PvP works really well. It has gankers, but dying isn't an issue at all...just a minor setback. But, even then, its still fun as hell
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I wouldn't mind them removing the concept of PvP Servers and PvE Servers I don't really care for that. Regular Servers, Problem solved. Go to PvP flagged zones, you have to flag yourself if you want to find players to pwn. Its not that hard really. As a pvper I really don't see much of a point in a PvP server, I really don't.
It separates the player base and I want to feel like everyone is contributing to the game, contributing to the world, not just for themselves.
In theory what you propose seems "fair" balance but we know what happens and why pve and pvp players don't like that.
We start with zones that have pvp enabled on them, then we get similar zones with dungeons, rare materials etc etc thus forcing pve players to go there if they want the best gear. And suddenly from fair it becomes the same crap we have now on forcing people to pvp.
Well then don't design pvp zones that way then. Problem Solved. The SWG Server way is the way to go.
No recent game has gone that route tough that's the thing. They all do what I said.
See ESO with Cryodiil. Until that moment, people that wanted to pve had their maps and people that wanted to pvp had theirs.
I'll pvp only when I want to (Which is rarely ever) so don't put stuff in my mmos that force me to go in pvp maps.
Also those people claiming a flagging system would be fine as an alternative method, wasn't there a thread months ago about some mmo having that and pvpers complaining because they would be getting ganked by pve players?
I know it sounds hilarious but it's here on this site I just forgot the name of the game.
There will still be people complaining no matter the changes. Some want to shoot first ask questions last, others want to enjoy the ride and not get bothered by nuisance.
Also those people claiming a flagging system would be fine as an alternative method, wasn't there a thread months ago about some mmo having that and pvpers complaining because they would be getting ganked by pve players?
I know it sounds hilarious but it's here on this site I just forgot the name of the game.
There will still be people complaining no matter the changes. Some want to shoot first ask questions last, others want to enjoy the ride and not get bothered by nuisance.
I laughed before you mentioned it sounds hilarious but yea thats just great xD.
The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
If they only did one server type then they'd have to make a much more robust ruleset and PvP/flagging system in order to keep things working fine.
Dividing the servers into multiple types is the easier solution because it separates out groups by favored content without any overly complex mechanics over that to guide player conduct or behavior.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There was a huge thread may be a couple years ago by one very aggressive PvPer who argued among other things that without dividing PvP and PvE the world that you would create would be very complete since you will be forcing essentially even people who dislike PvP to engage in it. That this was a healthier way to make sure that the world was more diverse and not only populated by players who have similar goals.
It may work may be as an experiment and perhaps it does enhance the PvP experience but I cannot help but feel sorry for the PvE players who perhaps do not really enjoy being in a game they are not very comfortable in. A world like that will only benefit the PvP player and the PvE player is not happy at most they tolerate the game because of the other features like I do in BDO.
I am grateful when developers cater to PvE players by having a separate server. I played on Gaheris the PvE server in Dark Age of Camelot .
Comments
Thing is some of us hate Crafting, getting the mats in general which needs pve farming, and thats where you guys come in, you guys farm the mats for us , and craft our potions! so we can use it against you in open world!
your logic of realism seems to fail hard.... just like the game Crysis and Arma its "Graphics" for example is as realistic as it gets, Aramanthar is just simply saying that adding "realistic consenquences" based on your certain actions in game can add a little flavor into games.
He wasn't saying that everything should be as realistic as REAL LIFE lol!
I'm not against Pver's im just saying games shouldn't segregate the two just make a common ground.
just like your given example BDO is still one of the best games there is atm, because it caters to both!
Example: Final Fantasy Reborn Caters to PVER's while World of Warcraft caters to BOTH yet wow is more successful.
fyi, I'm a PvPer. Not all pvpers want a gank fest, thats like a thing of the past when there were bounty hunters hunting jedi etc. I prefer the flag system.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
So you want everyone to play the game how you want them to play it, OK lol. What you are saying is no different than the cry babies who are gutted that this game has separate servers.
It's like you have missed the whole poin tof why the game has separate servers. The crying in this thread by so called PVP's who claim they don't need PVE's is pathetic.
You have your PVP server and PVE players have there server, why wouldn't you be happy lol.
I'll tell you why, it's because you and I know your PVP server will get boring real quick and empty. The PVE server will be thriving so you need them to make your server feel more alive.
Tekronos
I am talking about how pointless pvp servers are, it only segregates players. I'm a pvper and I don't need 24/7 flagged pvp in the open world, I want to be able to choose when to flag and choose if I want to go into a pvp zone or not. PvP and PvE shouldn't be seperate they should both contribute to each other somehow.
PvP Server, PvE Server? never heard that concept until I played later mmos that included those server types. Better to go back to the old days where it was "Name of Server", "Server Population", "Region/Timezone". There was no PvP/PvE servers. It was mainly a flag system.
I'll tell you why some mmos have seperate servers, its because of the ganking issue where on a pvp server you are toggled 24/7 on a PvE server you are not and its mainly for people who want to focus on PvE stuff. The clear solution to this is a flag system that doesn't flag you 24/7.
PvE Servers can go away AND PvP Servers can go away.
You sound ridiculous man, I'm just saying. You keep missing the point lol.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
There are many other ways to accomplish this without griefing. This isn't enough reason for this continued insistence that PvP be forced on entire games. Developers have never really cared about this sort of inflation in the first place so its a bit of a fantasy that PvP would cure some ill in that department.
The point being that non-consensual anything should be a non-starter in an entertainment business. The idea of catering to people who want to bother others and drive them away from your business is crazy. Why would any sane business privilege this sort of behavior over the desires of paying customers? It's a recipe for disaster, not a problem in search of a solution.
Hopefully we'll get past this stage of games depending on PvP for content. Sooner or later the advances in game technology will reach the AI area. The release of free game engines sparked the new Indi revolution, and maybe standardization of middleware (including AI modules) will follow.
At some point people will be making games the way they make mods and that's when things will get interesting. Taking the hardest parts of making a game out of the equation will let people with ideas focus on game systems and styles, putting things back where they were at the beginning of the 90's before graphics took off and put a lot of things out of reach, creating the "need" for AAA or go home. It could also create a better market for independent artists to collaberate with the small studios for the benefit of everyone.
There's a lot of reason for optimism in MMORPG's. Someday they may even make a persistent world PvP game that's worth a damn. You can always hope.
As far as "realism", we have characters that walk and run on the ground. Players expect some form of realism with swimming. Crafting is another place where some resemblance to realism is desired. Many want doors to open and close. Arrows to fly realistically. Water to flow or stay down. Rain and weather is often desired, even with more meaning.
So what's your beef against "realism"?
Once upon a time....
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Once again, it's why I'm a big fan of segregated PVP zones as in DAoC, GW2, ESO, etc. People who only do one of the two things (poor sods, paid full price for half a game
The other reason I prefer those games as opposed to playing two separate games or on two separate servers is because I'm doing it all in one with the same guilds and community... something some of the posters above either don't get or don't care about.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Do you have an example of this happening?
With the above said, separate servers don't work (not because PVP or PVE is boring or empty as some dimwits might spout) because the developers don't know how to or can't have both coexist in their workflow.
Until that happens the best option is focusing on 1 playstyle and putting the best foot forward.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So it's assumed that the dwindling population is due to the developers? Seems like a hard thing to prove. I'm not saying it can't happen but that it may just be due to lack of interest of the players to stay. While unfortunate it's the end result of what the majority of the player base wants.
What can be said though is that it's a no lose situation, generally speaking. If the PvP servers were destined to be underpopulated that means that the majority didn't want to be in that environment so having a PvE server was a good idea, rather than mixing it. Plus those that are still on the PvP servers are obviously still enjoying it, despite a low population. They may have not played that title at all if there had only been a PvE option.
I Agree with that, and one thing I could never understand is why BDO didn't have PvP and PvE servers, so you could just select which one you wanted at any given time. There are times I want to just PvE and get some stuff done and other times when I would have liked to PvP.
ESO gave you that option with Cryodil, but that left the world so much smaller and zones untouched after levelling.
Rift had the flagging system, which worked quite well.
I find it amusing how games promote "play how you want to play" they should really add the disclaimer "as long as you don't mind being Ganked"
No wonder games rarely bother anymore. Nothing of value lost there.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
See ESO with Cryodiil. Until that moment, people that wanted to pve had their maps and people that wanted to pvp had theirs.
I'll pvp only when I want to (Which is rarely ever) so don't put stuff in my mmos that force me to go in pvp maps.
I know it sounds hilarious but it's here on this site I just forgot the name of the game.
There will still be people complaining no matter the changes. Some want to shoot first ask questions last, others want to enjoy the ride and not get bothered by nuisance.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
Dividing the servers into multiple types is the easier solution because it separates out groups by favored content without any overly complex mechanics over that to guide player conduct or behavior.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It may work may be as an experiment and perhaps it does enhance the PvP experience but I cannot help but feel sorry for the PvE players who perhaps do not really enjoy being in a game they are not very comfortable in. A world like that will only benefit the PvP player and the PvE player is not happy at most they tolerate the game because of the other features like I do in BDO.
I am grateful when developers cater to PvE players by having a separate server. I played on Gaheris the PvE server in Dark Age of Camelot .