I don't even know why this debate still exists honestly. There's PvP games, there's open PvP games, there are consensual PvP games, and there are games with no PvP at all, and games that have more than one of the above features. Find one that fits your style, and play it. Stop trying to shove your viewpoint (and this goes for both sides) down each other's throats. It's not like arguing on a message board is ever going to cause either of the game types to fall out of existance.
I totally agree with what this poster says about playstyle. The debate still goes on, at least for me, because of the games availible to people that like my playstyle. Open PvP fantasy style games that are centered around groups/guilds and not solo ganking... its a short list, consisting of a single dying game. I have noticed alot of people taking SB's soon to be downfall (or depending on how you look at it, 3 year long downfall) as a sign that there is no place for open PvP games like this.
My opinion is that we have yet to see a well designed, well implemented open PvP on the market yet, so I fight the trend leading to EQ2, WoW style pvp, which IMO makes no one happy but the gankers. SB could have been the game to change this, but wolfpack's lack of funds doomed it in the very beginning.
and what's wrong with the middle road of PvE and PvP servers? simply that a good game hasn't been thought of yet to do it. With the games we have now, largely centered on PvE with PvP as an afterthought, what you get is a long level grind centered around valuable hard to get items, with faction PvP slapped on top- in other words, gankers paradise. This makes casual gamers opinions of what they think are PvP fans sink even lower, when if they had half a chance to truely fight on equal ground, they might find that they themselves enjoy PvP.
hope that was understandable, pretty long rant for me.
In my opinion, the debate PvP vs PvE games exists because 1) current games are a mixture of both and 2) "your game experience may change during gameplay".
Ultima Online began as a FFA and player driven economy to carebear and item based (because of trammel and insurances). WoW went from open world PvP to a watered down instanced unreal tournament over and over against the same people and with queues (because of the battlegrounds, honor points and dishonorable kills at cities, and also the technical reason of server crashes when 200+ people gather). Lineage2 has the most interesting and meaninful PvP out there, with clan wars, castle sieges and fights over raid bosses, but at the same time it has hardcore korean level grind (aka bots) and hell-economy (aka ebay and farmers) which are not fun when too many people cheat.
Developers are not able to find balance between both aspects of the game, so people whine. Consensual or instanced PvP just puts all the weight on one side of the balance and cancels most of the fun and surprise factor.
I agree pvp should be a stronger part of many mmorpg games. However, I think having ffa pvp in something like WoW would encourage cowardice with high levellers ganking low levellers. Without stupid artificial resists and melee defences, I think ffa pvp could be a lot more successful. Why shouldn't a level 1 be able to root a level 60? Its stupid, the system is just designed around PvE in that respect.
Additionally I do agree with the hardcore sentiment that there has to be some sort of loss to pvp to at least make pvp meaningful. Again, this would have to be tuned so it did not negatively affect the lower leveller too much but I think it is crucial to make pvp more than a mere ego boost.
The upcomin game darkfall has NO SAFE ZONES thank god i hated chasin people into towns and having NPC super amped guards kill me. Darkfall also has some very nice content
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
Originally posted by Jerek_ ... SB could have been the game to change this, but wolfpack's lack of funds doomed it in the very beginning.
and what's wrong with the middle road of PvE and PvP servers? simply that a good game hasn't been thought of yet to do it. With the games we have now, largely centered on PvE with PvP as an afterthought, what you get is a long level grind centered around valuable hard to get items, with faction PvP slapped on top- in other words, gankers paradise. This makes casual gamers opinions of what they think are PvP fans sink even lower, when if they had half a chance to truely fight on equal ground, they might find that they themselves enjoy PvP.
hope that was understandable, pretty long rant for me.
I completely agree. I'm not really one for pvp games (mainly cause it's not real pvp, it's gank fest). If i want pvp, i play an fps. But the features of SB made me want to play it, and i think i really would have enjoyed it a lot. It's just too bad the game overall was poorly designed (i hated the controls ) I don't hate PVP, i just hate the ppl that the current pvp systems create and allow to live(aka gankers, like the OP and a few others that have posted)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The pen is mightier than the sword, and authority is mightier than the pen, but the sword is mightier than authority.
If you can't beat 'em, hold 'em off 'till you come up with a better plan.
I agree, that consensual PvP is crap. However, it was created because of people like the OP, the mindless gankers who are too afraid to fight someone of equal power and call themselves PvPers. Now us real PvPers who just want to fight for the sake of a good fight and fun are suffering.
Funny thing about this thread is it was the "wolves" who moaned the most, which is why you are in the situation now. I guess some people have selective memory.
Darktongue: OP needs to grow up and learn that these things are just games.Nothing more nothing less. Entertainment
And a horror flick is just a horror flick, doesnt mean I dont want to be scared when I watch it.
BuZZKilgore: No one fears you in a video game, get over yourself. I always find it funny that people think they are rough and tough because they want FFA PVP in a MMO.
I dont consider myself rough or tough, Im not even a very active PvP'r. I do however prefer open PvP over consentual PvP as the latter seems artificial to me.
Suta_Safaia: Your saying that because we want to enjoy ourselves in a game that we should have to constantly be watching over our shoulders for some asshat 40 levels higher than us to come along and kill us by breathing on us?
For me personally thats exactly what I want. People complain about PvE grinds and how falling asleep at the keyboard is the biggest danger they face in games. I love a game that makes me search remote hunting area's to minimise the danger from other PC's, that feeling of always having to look behind me. Sure Im still "grinding" but the added element of danger ensures it isnt boring most of the time.
Suta_Safaia: There's PvP games, there's open PvP games, there are consensual PvP games, and there are games with no PvP at all.
Ofcourse, and a player is responsible for choosing a game type that suits him. Unfortunately what happens all too often is a player (well, many players) choose a game that fundementally isnt right for them but their friends play, or they like other features of the game. When enough of these players complain about the core game itself it leads to a rift within that game community (miserable for all). And as if this werent bad enough the devs then change the core game to satisfy the malcontents normally ruining the game in the process.
Yes games may be for our entertainment, but this notion that equality exists and that we have the same right to enjoy a game as the next player is nonsense. Enjoyment is entirely subjective and some players need to learn to move on from a game that doesnt fill their entertainment criteria....better yet, learn exactly what that criteria is before they enter a game world that will never meet their expectations.
Originally posted by GIRO god damn it isnt a limited veiw...the limited veiw is created by the people such as your selves that have made our games limited becuase of your limited veiw and caps on how we play....dont compare war to mmo's and dont ask people who want open sandbox games to beleive they have a limited veiw gameplay...theres only one limited veiw on mmorpgs and that is created by the gamers who push limitations onto games and players to turn them into utopia vegetable states
Blame where the blame needs to be. It's not the players. It's MMO Makers who latched onto EQ as their template instead of UO. If more games followed the UO skill system more games would have open PVP that was successful. Look at EVE, just as an example. The game continues to steadily grow. Why? Because they followed the UO model:
No levels, anyone can learn any skill given time, all items can be made by players. Most items are very affordable. You don't have to be a 10 year vet to win a PVP fight. That is the epidomy of what UO is and was. In both UO and EVE anyone can, relatively quickly, get right into the thick of things and have fun. UO, in my opinion, is much much better for the NON PVP player because it had more for non-PVP'ers to do than EVE does. Most of EVE is, lets be blunt, fairly boring. Even the die hard eve players will tell you you 1) need to get in a good corp and 2) need to get out of corp space to have the 'real fun'. UO doesn't have that issue. The game is pretty fun no matter where you go. It suffers from chronic age and outdated graphics though.
MMO developers have locked onto this idea that "gaining levels" will keep players around. EQ "Proved" that to them. They, for some unknown reason, completely chose to ignore that UO has survived LONGER on an older engine with woefully outdated graphics.
If someone released a game that 100% follows UO's engine and hell, even kept the same world but made it with modern 3D graphics (GuildWars would be a perfect platform to use as an example since you can pop out to full 3rd person) the game would take over the market nearly over night. Who wouldn't want to play UO with updated graphics, sounds and animations. Not to mention the fact that all the old bugs are LONG GONE to the point that player run shards hardly ever have bug complaints?
Unfortunately nobody seems to have the urge to break away from the "EQ Clone" market. Those very few that do typically don't have the budget to do it right.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Let us take World of Peacecraft err I mean warcraft for instance. This is a game where no one can be punished. A game where someone can mouth off at you and you can do nothing about it. You cannot defend your honor in this game
Sad.
If someone says something you don't like in real life, is the only possible way to "defend your honour" to pull a sword and run that person through?
I'd suggest you try to develop alternative means of defending yourself against verbal assault. For example there is a very advanced combat system used in real life known as "wit". You sir, have none of it.
I don't get why you bother arguing about this in absolute terms. Fact of the matter is that players are going to play what they have fun in. Even if that means playing rehashes of fantasy. Developers are going to spend however many years it takes them to make an MMORPG now making something they know will have a playerbase that can recoup the investment. Anything else would be fiscally irresponsible.
What I think is that its like cards. You can play a friendly round of Poker or join the local Bridge club. Everyone plays Cards at some point, usually for no stakes. What you're talking about is making the stakes most of what you've earned. That is only going to appeal to certain people, in my opinion.
Why would the sheep ever want to play with the wolves on their own turf? Its a lot of fun for the wolves if they get to run around slaughtering sheep, because they have teeth. The defenseless sheep is going to log out and find a game with a fence and other sheep to hang out with. Or bleet at the developers to put a fence in because, hell, if all the sheep leave, the farm is just going to have a couple hundred wolves running around. And a few dozen wolf pelts aren't worth as much as several thousand sheep worth of wool.
Enjoyment is subjectively relative, you can't say "Players need X" or "Players need Y", you can't possibly know that. There certainly isn't any statistical data on what people like in an MMO. You're basing everything on your own predilections.
Wow IS the ultimate carebear game and its idea of PvP makes me want to cry. If Sb wasnt shutting down, I'd still be there, but after 3 years of playing I needed a new face ^_^
So you're saying that ganking is a real problem with free PvP? I agree, but it's only because almost always the PvP is not designed as an integral gameplay component, but rather as an afterthought that's thrown in at the last moment in addition to PvE.
Here are a few simple steps, out of hundreds of similar ideas that would make PvP fun and practical:
1) Place bounty on the player for spontaneously attacking other players. A criminal that goes rampant for a while gets his bounty grow larger and larger.
2) Allow players registered as bounty hunters or guards to collect bounties by killing players-criminals.
3) Allow players-criminals to reduce their bounties by paying fines or by performing certain quests for NPC citizens.
4) If a player wants to targer another player, he/she should obtain permission from let's say NPC judge, by paying a certain amount of money. That way, the player won't be considered a criminal by targeting an unsuspecting enemy
5) Permadeath. Instead of implementing permadeath the usual way (e.g. players have 100 deaths max, or die immediately), implement it like this. There's a very small chance that when a player is killed in a battle, he/she dies permanently. Now imagine, the stronger the targets whom the player attacks, the higher that chance. E.g. if a lvl13 players decides to kill and rob a lvl20 player, there's 2% chance that the lvl13 player will permanently die, should the lvl20 player defeath him/her in battle.
6) Make so that certain potions, scrolls or spells cast by priest players reduce the chance of permadeath before each battle.
As I said, PvP can and should be made fun, without trying to abide to the old and broken restrictions (PvP vs. PvE, gankintg, etc.).
Originally posted by Luzario Consensual PVP allows cowardice to go rampant.Let us take World of Peacecraft err I mean warcraft for instance. This is a game where no one can be punished. A game where someone can mouth off at you and you can do nothing about it. You cannot defend your honor in this game and you have absolutely no control over anything.
Because, god knows, the most important thing in the world is to be able to beat up a video game character if someome says something that offends you. Or fails to say something you wanted them to, or looks funny, or whatever. YOUR VERY HONOR AS A NERD IS AT STAKE, TEH INTERWEB IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!
In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep",
The fact that your personal honor is so weak that it needs defense by beating up video game characters and that you think that you are considered the "wolf" says more about you than you'd probably like.
I like pvp. Alot.
But I opened this thread and walked away.. When I came back, this post caught my eye.
I agree iam tired of Carebears taking over these games. Lets face it know one crys on fourms like a Carebear can (Reason is they are mad they just got ganked etc..). Pvpers I know dont run to the fourms crying most of the time they just leave or dont even give the game a try.
Originally posted by Luzario Consensual PVP allows cowardice to go rampant.
Let us take World of Peacecraft err I mean warcraft for instance. This is a game where no one can be punished. A game where someone can mouth off at you and you can do nothing about it. You cannot defend your honor in this game and you have absolutely no control over anything.
Luzario
You are confusing the concept of "honor" with the concept of "face". Being insulted by someone is NOT an offense against your honor.
If you are going to act the part of a warrior, you need to be educated like one.
I know none of the PvPers will like it, but I say this: If ya want PvP, get an FPS. You die, you lose everything, start at a random spawn point, no hiding behind a flag, etc.
Personally, I've hated PvP since UO (which I played a week and quit due to boredom), and actually like WoW's system. I left CoH cause of FFA PvP.
Why do I hate PvP? Because it relies not just on online stats, but machine/connection stats. Why I don't play FPS's. I'm not weak, I just know that my machine -is- ancient, and I like pve as it is. You don't like it, make your own mmo.
"Of all the things wrong with today's RPGs, 2D characters on a 3D background is the worst."
PvP go against COOPERATION, thereby it must be destroyed!
What courage is the courage of someone who hide behind stats? If you want PvP and measure player skills, play a game that allow this. Game with levels, stats and gear to hoard are design to be about COOPERATION, to defeat the ultimate bad enemy run by the computer, with gleeful joice of sharing the experience with other players...and if for any reason you can't share it with other player, then solo is a nice alternative no matter what silly devs like Aradune says.
Solo is after grouping the most important aspect of a MMO, all in PvE. I don't mind for consensual PvP or for no PvP at all, but any DAoCish PvP and I am sooooo out of that lame game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by KariTR Darktongue: OP needs to grow up and learn that these things are just games.Nothing more nothing less. Entertainment And a horror flick is just a horror flick, doesnt mean I dont want to be scared when I watch it. BuZZKilgore: No one fears you in a video game, get over yourself. I always find it funny that people think they are rough and tough because they want FFA PVP in a MMO. I dont consider myself rough or tough, Im not even a very active PvP'r. I do however prefer open PvP over consentual PvP as the latter seems artificial to me. Suta_Safaia: Your saying that because we want to enjoy ourselves in a game that we should have to constantly be watching over our shoulders for some asshat 40 levels higher than us to come along and kill us by breathing on us? For me personally thats exactly what I want. People complain about PvE grinds and how falling asleep at the keyboard is the biggest danger they face in games. I love a game that makes me search remote hunting area's to minimise the danger from other PC's, that feeling of always having to look behind me. Sure Im still "grinding" but the added element of danger ensures it isnt boring most of the time. Suta_Safaia: There's PvP games, there's open PvP games, there are consensual PvP games, and there are games with no PvP at all. Ofcourse, and a player is responsible for choosing a game type that suits him. Unfortunately what happens all too often is a player (well, many players) choose a game that fundementally isnt right for them but their friends play, or they like other features of the game. When enough of these players complain about the core game itself it leads to a rift within that game community (miserable for all). And as if this werent bad enough the devs then change the core game to satisfy the malcontents normally ruining the game in the process. Yes games may be for our entertainment, but this notion that equality exists and that we have the same right to enjoy a game as the next player is nonsense. Enjoyment is entirely subjective and some players need to learn to move on from a game that doesnt fill their entertainment criteria....better yet, learn exactly what that criteria is before they enter a game world that will never meet their expectations.
Actually, you agreed with me while disagreeing Although that may be partialy my fault, since i'm not really sure I worded my original statements correctly. I DO think that every gamer has the right to enjoy themselves within any game. But then, I think every game should have varied servers, so that if you DO like that games features/systems, you have a way to play it without dragging the other people down. It's one of the reasons I like WoW (although I don't play it anymore) they have both open PvP and regular servers. I think every game should do this.
Let people play what kind of game they want. People should find the game that has the most features/options that they like, which unfortunately is sometimes a game that doesn't have the right kind of playstyle for them (say...people that like Lineage II but hate open PvP). This is why I think every game should have multiple servers, even if it's only two of them, so that both types of people can play a game they will enjoy without screwing up the other persons. It's the reason my gf, brother and friends don't play on open PvP games :P so we can enjoy ourselves.
"And here we see the ubergeek preparing for the hunt. He gulps down his mountain dew to increase his alertness, while his pasty skin basks in the glow of his monitor. He watches the screen for signs of his prey... and finds it! Yes, he has found someone who is lower-level than him, wearing gear appropriate for fighting NPCs and not players, and who is clearly engrossed in their current activity. Using his mouse and keyboard with great dexterity, he takes his character, equipped with gear specialized for killing other players, and starts the fight. Now with a few mice clicks and keyboard taps, we see him achieve his video game victory. We see his victory behavior as he jumps from his seat and pumps his fist, while shouting 'I am the wolf, bitch'. After recovering his breath from this extreme exertion, he moves to his next victim."
LMAO..BRILLIANT!! All you need is the Crocodile Hunter and you've got yourself a winner....
Originally posted by Domoclus 5) Permadeath. Instead of implementing permadeath the usual way (e.g. players have 100 deaths max, or die immediately), implement it like this. There's a very small chance that when a player is killed in a battle, he/she dies permanently. Now imagine, the stronger the targets whom the player attacks, the higher that chance. E.g. if a lvl13 players decides to kill and rob a lvl20 player, there's 2% chance that the lvl13 player will permanently die, should the lvl20 player defeath him/her in battle.
I kinda like this idea. But for the 20lvl attacking the 13lvl there should be a 40% chance of permadeath.
The permadeath percentage should get bigger the more distance there is between lvls (and MUCH bigger for a high lvl attacking a low) and no risk of permadeath for lvls that are the same or only one or two lvl diffrence.
BTW, I didn't go with it on my first reply, but did anyone else sense a nature documentary soundtrack going when the guy was calling himself a wolf? "And here we see the ubergeek preparing for the hunt. He gulps down his mountain dew to increase his alertness, while his pasty skin basks in the glow of his monitor. He watches the screen for signs of his prey... and finds it! Yes, he has found someone who is lower-level than him, wearing gear appropriate for fighting NPCs and not players, and who is clearly engrossed in their current activity. Using his mouse and keyboard with great dexterity, he takes his character, equipped with gear specialized for killing other players, and starts the fight. Now with a few mice clicks and keyboard taps, we see him achieve his video game victory. We see his victory behavior as he jumps from his seat and pumps his fist, while shouting 'I am the wolf, bitch'. After recovering his breath from this extreme exertion, he moves to his next victim."
LOL!!! pantastic FTW! that was freaking hilarious and soo true.
BTW, I didn't go with it on my first reply, but did anyone else sense a nature documentary soundtrack going when the guy was calling himself a wolf? "And here we see the ubergeek preparing for the hunt. He gulps down his mountain dew to increase his alertness, while his pasty skin basks in the glow of his monitor. He watches the screen for signs of his prey... and finds it! Yes, he has found someone who is lower-level than him, wearing gear appropriate for fighting NPCs and not players, and who is clearly engrossed in their current activity. Using his mouse and keyboard with great dexterity, he takes his character, equipped with gear specialized for killing other players, and starts the fight. Now with a few mice clicks and keyboard taps, we see him achieve his video game victory. We see his victory behavior as he jumps from his seat and pumps his fist, while shouting 'I am the wolf, bitch'. After recovering his breath from this extreme exertion, he moves to his next victim."
Lol, I didn't even notice this my first time reading through the thread XD this is great.
Famous words like "go back to carebear","you are a coward because you refuse to die to me in some pixel computer game" and other childish remarks are back on the loose.
Fact remains if this was a popular avenue of play then you see many gaming companies rushing to make such games.And guess what very few have and even fewer will as the support of shadowbane was at best a joke and the game is near closing its doors now.
Comments
I don't even know why this debate still exists honestly. There's PvP games, there's open PvP games, there are consensual PvP games, and there are games with no PvP at all, and games that have more than one of the above features. Find one that fits your style, and play it. Stop trying to shove your viewpoint (and this goes for both sides) down each other's throats. It's not like arguing on a message board is ever going to cause either of the game types to fall out of existance.
I totally agree with what this poster says about playstyle. The debate still goes on, at least for me, because of the games availible to people that like my playstyle. Open PvP fantasy style games that are centered around groups/guilds and not solo ganking... its a short list, consisting of a single dying game. I have noticed alot of people taking SB's soon to be downfall (or depending on how you look at it, 3 year long downfall) as a sign that there is no place for open PvP games like this.
My opinion is that we have yet to see a well designed, well implemented open PvP on the market yet, so I fight the trend leading to EQ2, WoW style pvp, which IMO makes no one happy but the gankers. SB could have been the game to change this, but wolfpack's lack of funds doomed it in the very beginning.
and what's wrong with the middle road of PvE and PvP servers? simply that a good game hasn't been thought of yet to do it. With the games we have now, largely centered on PvE with PvP as an afterthought, what you get is a long level grind centered around valuable hard to get items, with faction PvP slapped on top- in other words, gankers paradise. This makes casual gamers opinions of what they think are PvP fans sink even lower, when if they had half a chance to truely fight on equal ground, they might find that they themselves enjoy PvP.
hope that was understandable, pretty long rant for me.
In my opinion, the debate PvP vs PvE games exists because 1) current games are a mixture of both and 2) "your game experience may change during gameplay".
Ultima Online began as a FFA and player driven economy to carebear and item based (because of trammel and insurances). WoW went from open world PvP to a watered down instanced unreal tournament over and over against the same people and with queues (because of the battlegrounds, honor points and dishonorable kills at cities, and also the technical reason of server crashes when 200+ people gather). Lineage2 has the most interesting and meaninful PvP out there, with clan wars, castle sieges and fights over raid bosses, but at the same time it has hardcore korean level grind (aka bots) and hell-economy (aka ebay and farmers) which are not fun when too many people cheat.
Developers are not able to find balance between both aspects of the game, so people whine. Consensual or instanced PvP just puts all the weight on one side of the balance and cancels most of the fun and surprise factor.
Additionally I do agree with the hardcore sentiment that there has to be some sort of loss to pvp to at least make pvp meaningful. Again, this would have to be tuned so it did not negatively affect the lower leveller too much but I think it is crucial to make pvp more than a mere ego boost.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
and what's wrong with the middle road of PvE and PvP servers? simply that a good game hasn't been thought of yet to do it. With the games we have now, largely centered on PvE with PvP as an afterthought, what you get is a long level grind centered around valuable hard to get items, with faction PvP slapped on top- in other words, gankers paradise. This makes casual gamers opinions of what they think are PvP fans sink even lower, when if they had half a chance to truely fight on equal ground, they might find that they themselves enjoy PvP.
hope that was understandable, pretty long rant for me.
I completely agree. I'm not really one for pvp games (mainly cause it's not real pvp, it's gank fest). If i want pvp, i play an fps. But the features of SB made me want to play it, and i think i really would have enjoyed it a lot. It's just too bad the game overall was poorly designed (i hated the controls
I don't hate PVP, i just hate the ppl that the current pvp systems create and allow to live(aka gankers, like the OP and a few others that have posted)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pen is mightier than the sword, and authority is mightier than the pen, but the sword is mightier than authority.
If you can't beat 'em, hold 'em off 'till you come up with a better plan.
Funny thing about this thread is it was the "wolves" who moaned the most, which is why you are in the situation now. I guess some people have selective memory.
No annoying animated GIF here!
Darktongue: OP needs to grow up and learn that these things are just games.Nothing more nothing less. Entertainment
And a horror flick is just a horror flick, doesnt mean I dont want to be scared when I watch it.
BuZZKilgore: No one fears you in a video game, get over yourself. I always find it funny that people think they are rough and tough because they want FFA PVP in a MMO.
I dont consider myself rough or tough, Im not even a very active PvP'r. I do however prefer open PvP over consentual PvP as the latter seems artificial to me.
Suta_Safaia: Your saying that because we want to enjoy ourselves in a game that we should have to constantly be watching over our shoulders for some asshat 40 levels higher than us to come along and kill us by breathing on us?
For me personally thats exactly what I want. People complain about PvE grinds and how falling asleep at the keyboard is the biggest danger they face in games. I love a game that makes me search remote hunting area's to minimise the danger from other PC's, that feeling of always having to look behind me. Sure Im still "grinding" but the added element of danger ensures it isnt boring most of the time.
Suta_Safaia: There's PvP games, there's open PvP games, there are consensual PvP games, and there are games with no PvP at all.
Ofcourse, and a player is responsible for choosing a game type that suits him. Unfortunately what happens all too often is a player (well, many players) choose a game that fundementally isnt right for them but their friends play, or they like other features of the game. When enough of these players complain about the core game itself it leads to a rift within that game community (miserable for all). And as if this werent bad enough the devs then change the core game to satisfy the malcontents normally ruining the game in the process.
Yes games may be for our entertainment, but this notion that equality exists and that we have the same right to enjoy a game as the next player is nonsense. Enjoyment is entirely subjective and some players need to learn to move on from a game that doesnt fill their entertainment criteria....better yet, learn exactly what that criteria is before they enter a game world that will never meet their expectations.
Blame where the blame needs to be. It's not the players. It's MMO Makers who latched onto EQ as their template instead of UO. If more games followed the UO skill system more games would have open PVP that was successful. Look at EVE, just as an example. The game continues to steadily grow. Why? Because they followed the UO model:
No levels, anyone can learn any skill given time, all items can be made by players. Most items are very affordable. You don't have to be a 10 year vet to win a PVP fight. That is the epidomy of what UO is and was. In both UO and EVE anyone can, relatively quickly, get right into the thick of things and have fun. UO, in my opinion, is much much better for the NON PVP player because it had more for non-PVP'ers to do than EVE does. Most of EVE is, lets be blunt, fairly boring. Even the die hard eve players will tell you you 1) need to get in a good corp and 2) need to get out of corp space to have the 'real fun'. UO doesn't have that issue. The game is pretty fun no matter where you go. It suffers from chronic age and outdated graphics though.
MMO developers have locked onto this idea that "gaining levels" will keep players around. EQ "Proved" that to them. They, for some unknown reason, completely chose to ignore that UO has survived LONGER on an older engine with woefully outdated graphics.
If someone released a game that 100% follows UO's engine and hell, even kept the same world but made it with modern 3D graphics (GuildWars would be a perfect platform to use as an example since you can pop out to full 3rd person) the game would take over the market nearly over night. Who wouldn't want to play UO with updated graphics, sounds and animations. Not to mention the fact that all the old bugs are LONG GONE to the point that player run shards hardly ever have bug complaints?
Unfortunately nobody seems to have the urge to break away from the "EQ Clone" market. Those very few that do typically don't have the budget to do it right.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
If someone says something you don't like in real life, is the only possible way to "defend your honour" to pull a sword and run that person through?
I'd suggest you try to develop alternative means of defending yourself against verbal assault. For example there is a very advanced combat system used in real life known as "wit". You sir, have none of it.
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I don't get why you bother arguing about this in absolute terms. Fact of the matter is that players are going to play what they have fun in. Even if that means playing rehashes of fantasy. Developers are going to spend however many years it takes them to make an MMORPG now making something they know will have a playerbase that can recoup the investment. Anything else would be fiscally irresponsible.
What I think is that its like cards. You can play a friendly round of Poker or join the local Bridge club. Everyone plays Cards at some point, usually for no stakes. What you're talking about is making the stakes most of what you've earned. That is only going to appeal to certain people, in my opinion.
Why would the sheep ever want to play with the wolves on their own turf? Its a lot of fun for the wolves if they get to run around slaughtering sheep, because they have teeth. The defenseless sheep is going to log out and find a game with a fence and other sheep to hang out with. Or bleet at the developers to put a fence in because, hell, if all the sheep leave, the farm is just going to have a couple hundred wolves running around. And a few dozen wolf pelts aren't worth as much as several thousand sheep worth of wool.
Enjoyment is subjectively relative, you can't say "Players need X" or "Players need Y", you can't possibly know that. There certainly isn't any statistical data on what people like in an MMO. You're basing everything on your own predilections.
Shadowbane FTW!
Lose your life... byebye inventory, hello tree.
Wow IS the ultimate carebear game and its idea of PvP makes me want to cry. If Sb wasnt shutting down, I'd still be there, but after 3 years of playing I needed a new face ^_^
Here are a few simple steps, out of hundreds of similar ideas that would make PvP fun and practical:
1) Place bounty on the player for spontaneously attacking other players. A criminal that goes rampant for a while gets his bounty grow larger and larger.
2) Allow players registered as bounty hunters or guards to collect bounties by killing players-criminals.
3) Allow players-criminals to reduce their bounties by paying fines or by performing certain quests for NPC citizens.
4) If a player wants to targer another player, he/she should obtain permission from let's say NPC judge, by paying a certain amount of money. That way, the player won't be considered a criminal by targeting an unsuspecting enemy
5) Permadeath. Instead of implementing permadeath the usual way (e.g. players have 100 deaths max, or die immediately), implement it like this. There's a very small chance that when a player is killed in a battle, he/she dies permanently. Now imagine, the stronger the targets whom the player attacks, the higher that chance. E.g. if a lvl13 players decides to kill and rob a lvl20 player, there's 2% chance that the lvl13 player will permanently die, should the lvl20 player defeath him/her in battle.
6) Make so that certain potions, scrolls or spells cast by priest players reduce the chance of permadeath before each battle.
As I said, PvP can and should be made fun, without trying to abide to the old and broken restrictions (PvP vs. PvE, gankintg, etc.).
Because, god knows, the most important thing in the world is to be able to beat up a video game character if someome says something that offends you. Or fails to say something you wanted them to, or looks funny, or whatever. YOUR VERY HONOR AS A NERD IS AT STAKE, TEH INTERWEB IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!
The fact that your personal honor is so weak that it needs defense by beating up video game characters and that you think that you are considered the "wolf" says more about you than you'd probably like.
I like pvp. Alot.
But I opened this thread and walked away.. When I came back, this post caught my eye.
And I have to say QUOTED FOR TRUTH LOLBBQ!!
I agree iam tired of Carebears taking over these games. Lets face it know one crys on fourms like a Carebear can (Reason is they are mad they just got ganked etc..). Pvpers I know dont run to the fourms crying most of the time they just leave or dont even give the game a try.
P.S.
If you want good Pvp play Eve
You are confusing the concept of "honor" with the concept of "face". Being insulted by someone is NOT an offense against your honor.
If you are going to act the part of a warrior, you need to be educated like one.
Personally, I've hated PvP since UO (which I played a week and quit due to boredom), and actually like WoW's system. I left CoH cause of FFA PvP.
Why do I hate PvP? Because it relies not just on online stats, but machine/connection stats. Why I don't play FPS's. I'm not weak, I just know that my machine -is- ancient, and I like pve as it is. You don't like it, make your own mmo.
"Of all the things wrong with today's RPGs, 2D characters on a 3D background is the worst."
I agree, remove all PvP, not even consensual.
PvP go against COOPERATION, thereby it must be destroyed!
What courage is the courage of someone who hide behind stats? If you want PvP and measure player skills, play a game that allow this. Game with levels, stats and gear to hoard are design to be about COOPERATION, to defeat the ultimate bad enemy run by the computer, with gleeful joice of sharing the experience with other players...and if for any reason you can't share it with other player, then solo is a nice alternative no matter what silly devs like Aradune says.
Solo is after grouping the most important aspect of a MMO, all in PvE. I don't mind for consensual PvP or for no PvP at all, but any DAoCish PvP and I am sooooo out of that lame game.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Actually, you agreed with me while disagreeing
Let people play what kind of game they want. People should find the game that has the most features/options that they like, which unfortunately is sometimes a game that doesn't have the right kind of playstyle for them (say...people that like Lineage II but hate open PvP). This is why I think every game should have multiple servers, even if it's only two of them, so that both types of people can play a game they will enjoy without screwing up the other persons. It's the reason my gf, brother and friends don't play on open PvP games :P so we can enjoy ourselves.
LMAO..BRILLIANT!! All you need is the Crocodile Hunter and you've got yourself a winner....
I kinda like this idea. But for the 20lvl attacking the 13lvl there should be a 40% chance of permadeath.
The permadeath percentage should get bigger the more distance there is between lvls (and MUCH bigger for a high lvl attacking a low) and no risk of permadeath for lvls that are the same or only one or two lvl diffrence.
LOL!!! pantastic FTW! that was freaking hilarious and soo true.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Is it school break or what ?
Seems we are getting this seasonal on this site.
Famous words like "go back to carebear","you are a coward because you refuse to die to me in some pixel computer game" and other childish remarks are back on the loose.
Fact remains if this was a popular avenue of play then you see many gaming companies rushing to make such games.And guess what very few have and even fewer will as the support of shadowbane was at best a joke and the game is near closing its doors now.