My main issue with discussions like this is the way people start throwing around words like "Cowardice" and "carebear". They throw tantrums like little children trying to insult people who aren't "hardcore l33t pvpzomg" and attempting a a holier-than-thou attitude as if somehow people who don't want to get ganked by unbeatable foes are ruining the game.
People have said most of this stuff before but I may add these to reinforce it: -It is just a game, people want to have fun. They don't want to have to deal with griefers (and there will always be some type of griefer) if they don't have to.
-Game makers want to make money, they do this by getting many people to play their game and pay for it. Games with FFA pvp have far less market appeal. Look at Shadowbane, they are completely free form pvp and they aren't making money anymore.
-Insulting the people who don't like the same type of gameplay as you, calling people names and such because they don't pvp, just reinforces the stereotype of pvp'ers being griefers. "I should be able to kill anyone I want, whenever I want" is not a phrase that most people associate with a fun game.
You have to understand that different people have different goals when they play a game. If someone can only play 2 hours a week, they don't want to have to deal with someone deciding to come kill them over and over. Free fom pvp contains a large element of ruining other peoples game playing. By having pvp be consensual, that means that the average gamer can just go and play without having to worry about ganking and such.
You may say "Well if they don't like it, then they should go play another game." Sorry but it's actually you who should go play another game. You see, the ones who want consensual pvp also happen to be the target market for most games. They are the majority and you are not. My suggestion is that you go play Shadowbane, it has everything you want doesn't it? Maybe then we won't have to deal with another of these whine-posts popping up every couple months.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
PvP seemed so great in those early years because players who didn't want to PvP were forced to play with those who did. Every variety of gamer was squished into the tiny available games, giving you plenty of your supposed "sheep" to prey on. People who enjoyed PvP just so they could feel “scared” had players to prey on them and the predators that played PvP just to exercise control over others had no shortage of targets.
The variety of personalities in early games like UO can never, and will never, be repeated, there's just simply too much variety in terms of gameplay now. Wolves will end up in a game with other wolves. Sheep with other sheep. Griefers with other Griefers. Gladiators with other gladiators. Protectors with other protectors... they'll never be excessive hunting, griefing, camping, or a need to look over one's shoulder ever again. It's dead and buried, and honestly, its modern inception has little to do with the mmog community or even their developers. It just simply is the reality of mmog evolution as everyone works to find their own niche.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
I know this has been touched on already, but I think it's a little ridiculous to assume that because someone doesn't like PvP in a particular game somehow means they don't like to compete. You have to understand that most MMOs determine your effectiveness based pretty heavily on things that aren't equal for players of different levels, or simply with different equipment.
How does not wanting unexpected, heavily pitched combat a sign of cowardice? I prefer to compete in FPS style games, and my primary gaming love will always be Mechwarrior... where I chose to compete at the highest levels of organized league play.... when they were still making Mechwarrior games. What I am not crazy about is logging on to a game and having someone of a significantly higher level initiate an attack I have no hope of surviving and no option of declining. It seems to me, they would really be the "coward" in that scenario. Why else would they want to force other people in to combat in a game where two players are rarely on an even remotely level playing field.
I'm all for PvP and even zones of open PvP.... I just don't see why anyone would have a real problem with also having zones where non-consensual PvP wasn't allowed... unless their actual goal is "pwn n00bz". What exactly do you prove by beating someone in a game where playing skill matters less than level and equipment?
Originally posted by GIRO god damn it isnt a limited veiw...the limited veiw is created by the people such as your selves that have made our games limited becuase of your limited veiw and caps on how we play....dont compare war to mmo's and dont ask people who want open sandbox games to beleive they have a limited veiw gameplay...theres only one limited veiw on mmorpgs and that is created by the gamers who push limitations onto games and players to turn them into utopia vegetable states
Well what all you ffa PvP'ers are trying to do is push your views on all the ffa non-pvp'ers, Its a simple fact that the majority of MMO players do not wish to participate in FFA's, that is why the style of gameplay is a dying bread, so don't force your FFA style on people who don't want it. THE OP is forcing it on everyone when he complains about 'carebear' games which include PvP servers. If you have a problem with the people on a particular server in a particualr game complain on that forum not here.
Let us take World of Peacecraft err I mean warcraft for instance. This is a game where no one can be punished. A game where someone can mouth off at you and you can do nothing about it. You cannot defend your honor in this game and you have absolutely no control over anything. It is not "your" game it is "Blizzards" game and you can go on "their" ride but it won't ever be "your" journey. Mmmorpgs like Everquest & Star wars galaxies encourage players to "hide" behind an invisible wall of protection allowing them to be greedy & selfish thus destroying the community.
In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this. In a game where everyone is a sheep and there are no wolves you're gonna have gay sheep running around all day thinking they are all that when they are realy not.
Long live the old days of MMORPGs.
These are the generations:
1st generation MMORPGS: Barbaric & Ultra Violent (UO, Meridian 59, muds, shadowbane, ac darktide)
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
Luzario
Wow, you babies have way too much free time to whine and cry about this stuff. If ruining other people's experiences is the only thing that can make you happy, then maybe you should seek getting some serious help.
FFA PvP will never work, because you just respawn at your bind point, have a pout and a whine then carry on your day. The only way it would work is if it had the following:
1) Dead means dead. Unless someone else can find your corpse and resurrect you, you're not coming back. On the subject of finding corpses, also corpses should be moveable. The killer will obviously want to hide the body by throwing it in a lake or something similar.
2) The actul killing and anything done after, such as moving the corpse, should be tracable by some sort of Investigator class. Perhaps as simple as finding clues, footprints or a bit of torn fabric, to as varied as using magical scrying or DNA evidence, depending on the genre. The hints shouldn't be along the lines of, "Jim did it!", but subtle hints that can eventually (with some work) reveal the identity of the killer.
3) Any witnesses to the killing, even NPC's, are able to reveal the identity of the killer, unless of course the witnesses are also killed. But the more bodies, the more likely you are to be found. Some tougher witnesses, such as city guards or elite police, dependant on genre, may rush to aid the person being attacked.
There are probably a few other things, but what I'm trying to get across is that randomly killing people should have its consequences. Would our original poster still be a Wolf if his character can be tracked down for his killing, slaughtered, thrown in a ditch and buried, with no chance of ever coming back? I doubt it. Would he even feel like he wanted to be PKing people, if he knows theres a big chance that they'll lose their character for good?
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
Luzario
Oh by the way, sorry to burst your bubble on this as well, but you've got the whole 'generation' thing wrong. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word in the way you're trying to use it.
1st generation: Games that were developed when there were no real MMOs out (UO, Meridian 59, EQ, maaaybe AC1)
2nd Generation: Games that were developed as successors to the 1st gen (DAoC, Lineage, Shadowbane, I think SWG)
3rd Gen: games developed using the knowledge and experience gained after the 2nd gen (WoW, Lineage 2, etc)
Soon we'll be having the 4th generation, etc, and if you want to include the Pre-generation as muds and such, that's fine.
But in the end, overall I'm just tired of these people who pop up to whine about pvp every now and then. You complain about WoW, that's nice. If you don't like it, don't play it. 6 Million people like it perfectly fine without ffa pvp. The developers don't care so much what you want because it's their game, they paid to make it, you only get to pay them to play it. They are raking in millions of dollars a month with the game exactly the way it is. They're not gonna change it no matter how much you cry. Companies have made FFA pvp games, so why don't you go play them? Sure they're not as popular, but if pvp is all you care about, go nuts. Shadowbane is perfect for you, they're not making any money but it's got what you want. But guess what, developers tend to stay away from making games that have previously made NO money whatsoever.
Welcome to real life, where ganking some noobs to make yourself feel cool doesn't matter that much.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Why doesn't the origninal poster come out and be a "Wolf" in the real world. I am a "Wolf" in the real world hunting down killer around DC you idiot. Maybe what people want is reality in their games. They want what exists in thre real world....consequences. What this ape does not realizes is a lot of the paying world of games now days is is people with real jobs that demand reality out for their games. What is the point of struggling for now reason. Reason is created out of consequences and rewards that come close to real world. Original poster is a scared little kid wanting to be cool in a grown up world.
Unfortunately alot of people would rather they be able to play an MMORPG where you can't just walk up to some one and attack them for no damn reason. The consensual PVP thing may make it seem like the player is being a coward, but is it really cowardly on the players part if they don't want to have to worry about some Jag off at max level going into the newby area and killing people who just rolled for no other reason then to be a jack ass....and yes it does happen, don't act like all you PVP types have honor. If you don't like the fact that some one can call you a bloody moron to your face even if you are one, and get away with it... then don't bloody play the games that have that feature... go play what ever you want no ones stopping you.... don't try to ruin other peoples games by insesantly whining about how you can't kill every one in such and such a game, there's nothing wrong with games that don't have such a feature, they just catter to the people who don't want to get there ass kicked by some maxed out player decked out in end game equipment before they ever leave the starting area.
Considering all people are not created identical to the other, you'd be surprised. Just because some one wants to PVP anywhere's doesn't mean there not the type of person to abuse it. I'm sure some would like to PVP anywhere's just to target the lower levels
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
Luzario
Oh by the way, sorry to burst your bubble on this as well, but you've got the whole 'generation' thing wrong. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word in the way you're trying to use it.
1st generation: Games that were developed when there were no real MMOs out (UO, Meridian 59, EQ, maaaybe AC1)
2nd Generation: Games that were developed as successors to the 1st gen (DAoC, Lineage, Shadowbane, I think SWG)
3rd Gen: games developed using the knowledge and experience gained after the 2nd gen (WoW, Lineage 2, etc)
Soon we'll be having the 4th generation, etc, and if you want to include the Pre-generation as muds and such, that's fine.
But in the end, overall I'm just tired of these people who pop up to whine about pvp every now and then. You complain about WoW, that's nice. If you don't like it, don't play it. 6 Million people like it perfectly fine without ffa pvp. The developers don't care so much what you want because it's their game, they paid to make it, you only get to pay them to play it. They are raking in millions of dollars a month with the game exactly the way it is. They're not gonna change it no matter how much you cry. Companies have made FFA pvp games, so why don't you go play them? Sure they're not as popular, but if pvp is all you care about, go nuts. Shadowbane is perfect for you, they're not making any money but it's got what you want. But guess what, developers tend to stay away from making games that have previously made NO money whatsoever.
Welcome to real life, where ganking some noobs to make yourself feel cool doesn't matter that much.
Well, EQ is definitely the first 2nd generation MMO and I never see a MMO I accept to qualify as a 3rd generation. I only see 2 generations, pre-EQ and post-EQ...which can be qualified very easily with the 3D. Some folks say Meridian belong to the same generation as EQ, maybe, honestly I never really try to consider it.
But real 3D and vast world, EQ was sure a 2nd generation. All newer MMOs still belong to that generation, I don't see why I would consider them a new generation, the difference between UO and EQ is real, you FEEL it. I don't feel such a difference in WoW or CoH compare to EQ, yes I enjoy CoH and CoV a lot more, and Auto-Assault as well...but it is the same generation as EQ.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
This constant bickering isn't getting us anywhere. Just based on my observations, a game that would suit both types of players would be a game with two opposing factions that can fight each other openly, and a neutral faction that cannot be attacked openly. This would be similar to SWG, where you are not forced to PvP, but the option is there and you can quit when you feel like it. I believe this system created a great community in SWG, and I believe it can work in other games.
Originally posted by treed0223 This constant bickering isn't getting us anywhere. Just based on my observations, a game that would suit both types of players would be a game with two opposing factions that can fight each other openly, and a neutral faction that cannot be attacked openly. This would be similar to SWG, where you are not forced to PvP, but the option is there and you can quit when you feel like it. I believe this system created a great community in SWG, and I believe it can work in other games.
And you would be right. But the problem is that the op and ppl like him would still complain and call it "carebear" cause they cannot gank or grief those of that neutral faction. They don't want you to be able to choose, they want you to be forced into ffa pvp.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The pen is mightier than the sword, and authority is mightier than the pen, but the sword is mightier than authority.
If you can't beat 'em, hold 'em off 'till you come up with a better plan.
Originally posted by Koddo Originally posted by treed0223 This constant bickering isn't getting us anywhere. Just based on my observations, a game that would suit both types of players would be a game with two opposing factions that can fight each other openly, and a neutral faction that cannot be attacked openly. This would be similar to SWG, where you are not forced to PvP, but the option is there and you can quit when you feel like it. I believe this system created a great community in SWG, and I believe it can work in other games.
And you would be right. But the problem is that the op and ppl like him would still complain and call it "carebear" cause they cannot gank or grief those of that neutral faction. They don't want you to be able to choose, they want you to be forced into ffa pvp.
O think that is exactly the case. This isn't a PvP or no PvP discussion. I think most of us agree that modern MMOs need an option for people want to to have PvP combat..... it's just a tiny percent of the population that think there shouldn't be an option for people who don't want participate in PvP, or even want to be able to set a few terms on when and how PvP can be initiated without the mutual consent of both parties.
There is an obvious attempt to distort the issue and make it seem as if we are asking for games not to have PvP at all. They really want the argument to be all or nothing, PvP vs no PvP... and I really don't believe that is the case. It's funny to me that people on both sides of the argument point to the same RvR type games as the perfect "solution". I'm not even sure that many of us disagree on what we want from a PvP system. The real issue as I see it is what the hell is wrong with the few people who want to be sure there isn't anything in place that prevents them from ganking noobs?
Originally posted by Salvatoris Originally posted by Koddo Originally posted by treed0223 This constant bickering isn't getting us anywhere. Just based on my observations, a game that would suit both types of players would be a game with two opposing factions that can fight each other openly, and a neutral faction that cannot be attacked openly. This would be similar to SWG, where you are not forced to PvP, but the option is there and you can quit when you feel like it. I believe this system created a great community in SWG, and I believe it can work in other games.
And you would be right. But the problem is that the op and ppl like him would still complain and call it "carebear" cause they cannot gank or grief those of that neutral faction. They don't want you to be able to choose, they want you to be forced into ffa pvp.
O think that is exactly the case. This isn't a PvP or no PvP discussion. I think most of us agree that modern MMOs need an option for people want to to have PvP combat..... it's just a tiny percent of the population that think there shouldn't be an option for people who don't want participate in PvP, or even want to be able to set a few terms on when and how PvP can be initiated without the mutual consent of both parties.
There is an obvious attempt to distort the issue and make it seem as if we are asking for games not to have PvP at all. They really want the argument to be all or nothing, PvP vs no PvP... and I really don't believe that is the case. It's funny to me that people on both sides of the argument point to the same RvR type games as the perfect "solution". I'm not even sure that many of us disagree on what we want from a PvP system. The real issue as I see it is what the hell is wrong with the few people who want to be sure there isn't anything in place that prevents them from ganking noobs?
Exactly, which is why more MMO's need to have the two factions and neutral to cater to both players, but the PvP system needs to have risks and rewards if you are going to participate in it. In games like WoW, there are 2 factions, however you don't get to decide if you want to fight really, but it doesn't matter because the PvP is pointless anyways. In other "hardcore" games it only caters to mainly one type of player and forces people to be in uncomfortable situations. Some like this, and some don't. So why not let the people choose if they want to jump in the fight hoping for rewards, and risking something, and have the more casual players doing what they want when they want, and maybe even making a profit by crafting items for the fighters, or something like that. It would make alot of people be at a happy medium of both worlds and even the vocal minority that "wants to kill newbs" can participate in PvP, and if they want to kill neutral, there SOL.
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
Actually, it possibly has... Puzzle Pirates has several ways of PvPing, both avoidable and not. At sea, PvP is unavoidable, except if there's a significant speed difference - and you can only disengage if ten turns elapse without getting hit by cannon fire, rammed, or hitting rocks. And of course, there's the Black Ship, and the Brigand Kings, which are both NPPs... but they're punishment for attacking ships significantly weaker than you and unavoidable surprises hiding within stronger ships, respectively.. Then, of course, there are the sea monsters and Adventure Islands... but the devs might not be releasing them for a while.
The OP reminds me of the typical ganker/griefer. You are doing your thing in game as a lowbie grinding levels and get ganked. The high level ganker then calls you a noob etc.....after a while you run into the same ganker in town and he says he's sorry and you're like whatever. So now that you haven't accepted this moron's apology he goes out of his way to be the "wolf" and gank you again because this loser clearly has masculinity issues.
The reality is these guys are just losers in the most hardcore MMORPG ever made...LIFE. So now these guys use these games to exert some power from their parents basement. Seriously it's one thing to PvP and all but being the "wolf" is just a sad and pathetic cry of a man child looking for power to exert in a game because he has no power in real life.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Originally posted by M1sf1t The OP reminds me of the typical ganker/griefer. You are doing your thing in game as a lowbie grinding levels and get ganked. The high level ganker then calls you a noob etc.....after a while you run into the same ganker in town and he says he's sorry and you're like whatever. So now that you haven't accepted this moron's apology he goes out of his way to be the "wolf" and gank you again because this loser clearly has masculinity issues.
The reality is these guys are just losers in the most hardcore MMORPG ever made...LIFE. So now these guys use these games to exert some power from their parents basement. Seriously it's one thing to PvP and all but being the "wolf" is just a sad and pathetic cry of a man child looking for power to exert in a game because he has no power in real life.
While no one can deny your case scenario, it isnt something your average pro-FFA/PvP player is about.
'Griefing' can occur in any type of game that involves interaction between players. Certainly open PvP games seem to allow more avenue for the griefer-type PvPer, but the flip side of the coin is it also allows the victim more freedom to exact their revenge.
I'd also like to point out that game communities need time to grow: playing a game during open beta phase or immediately after launch is probably seeing it at its worse. PvP game communities are very aware of the trials a new player may face and are very supportive of new-comers. The lack of artificial governing systems/rules promotes more positive than negative interaction, but like everything in life good news isnt considered all that newsworthy.
after reading the OP post you might wonder what his problem is since there are many FFA PVP games out there. well the problem is he is a wolf. and wolves dont hunt other wolves they hunt defensless sheep. sheep dont like beeing killed by wolves all the time so they prefer to play games without wolves so they can live a happy life in peace. now what does the wolf do? maybe fight other wolves? nope to dangerous. instead the wolf visits mmorpg.com and starts flaming and offending sheep.
my advise try hunt other wolves if you want pvp because nobody thinks its fun to be the low level sheep. consider yourself lucky if you ever find that kind of masochist.
The problem with all PvP implementations within MMOs to date is simple -- they are set within PvE worlds and therefore, constrained by them.
The entire question of appropriateness (ref: gank vs pk vs carebear vs whatever) is beside the point.
The entire discussion of how to effectively balance the two playstyles is easily answered, but that answer is not one that is cost effective, so they (i.e., game developers) ignore it.
To implement the answer would be to essentially build two games in one. It is ironic that so many games now offer the 'game within a game' model, but still the industry refuses to note this solution as one that would revolutionize.
The answer itself is simple, elegant, and obvious - make PvP players the environment that PvE players must succeed against.
This truth I found while reading the following entry at the blog of a friend:
post after post calling for people that want open pvp to stop pushing our playstyle on everyone else... your not getting it. There are tons of MMO's out and being released. People that don't want pvp or that want limited pvp have and will continue to have plenty of games to choose from to play. By saying we want open pvp games, we aren't forcing anything on anyone, just saying we want another choice.
It seems that a lot of people here think about pvp only from their past experiences with it, or lack of experience for some. I am not concerned with whats happened before, but what needs to happen in the next game to make it work. Pointing at SB, saying we got our chance now its over, isn't cutting it. Thats like saying no new pve games should have been made, if you aren't happy with EQ1 to bad, thats it for you. A lot of the focus of this thread seems to be saying that people who enjoy my playstyle don't deserve a game that would make us happy, that our opinions are somehow 'wrong' if we aren't satisfied with /duel or a faction system of pvp in a leveling game. Nobody is trying to force anything on YOU, stop doing it to us.
Like I said before, the OP isn't a pvper, hes a ganker. His playstyle is to take advantage of others, to enjoy ruining someone else's fun. The less this is possible, the better off we all are, and if developers and players change the way pvp is done in MMO's, then maybe this wouldn't be such an issue.
Comments
My main issue with discussions like this is the way people start throwing around words like "Cowardice" and "carebear". They throw tantrums like little children trying to insult people who aren't "hardcore l33t pvpzomg" and attempting a a holier-than-thou attitude as if somehow people who don't want to get ganked by unbeatable foes are ruining the game.
People have said most of this stuff before but I may add these to reinforce it:
-It is just a game, people want to have fun. They don't want to have to deal with griefers (and there will always be some type of griefer) if they don't have to.
-Game makers want to make money, they do this by getting many people to play their game and pay for it. Games with FFA pvp have far less market appeal. Look at Shadowbane, they are completely free form pvp and they aren't making money anymore.
-Insulting the people who don't like the same type of gameplay as you, calling people names and such because they don't pvp, just reinforces the stereotype of pvp'ers being griefers. "I should be able to kill anyone I want, whenever I want" is not a phrase that most people associate with a fun game.
You have to understand that different people have different goals when they play a game. If someone can only play 2 hours a week, they don't want to have to deal with someone deciding to come kill them over and over. Free fom pvp contains a large element of ruining other peoples game playing. By having pvp be consensual, that means that the average gamer can just go and play without having to worry about ganking and such.
You may say "Well if they don't like it, then they should go play another game." Sorry but it's actually you who should go play another game. You see, the ones who want consensual pvp also happen to be the target market for most games. They are the majority and you are not. My suggestion is that you go play Shadowbane, it has everything you want doesn't it? Maybe then we won't have to deal with another of these whine-posts popping up every couple months.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
PvP seemed so great in those early years because players who
didn't want to PvP were forced to play with those who did. Every variety
of gamer was squished into the tiny available games, giving you plenty of your
supposed "sheep" to prey on.
People who enjoyed PvP just so they could feel “scared” had players to
prey on them and the predators that played PvP just to exercise control over
others had no shortage of targets.
The variety of personalities in early games like UO can never, and will never,
be repeated, there's just simply too much variety in terms of gameplay
now. Wolves will end up in a game with other wolves. Sheep with
other sheep. Griefers with other Griefers. Gladiators with other
gladiators. Protectors with other
protectors... they'll never be excessive hunting, griefing, camping, or a need
to look over one's shoulder ever again. It's dead and buried, and
honestly, its modern inception has little to do with the mmog community or even
their developers. It just simply is the reality of mmog evolution as
everyone works to find their own niche.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
I know this has been touched on already, but I think it's a little ridiculous to assume that because someone doesn't like PvP in a particular game somehow means they don't like to compete. You have to understand that most MMOs determine your effectiveness based pretty heavily on things that aren't equal for players of different levels, or simply with different equipment.
How does not wanting unexpected, heavily pitched combat a sign of cowardice? I prefer to compete in FPS style games, and my primary gaming love will always be Mechwarrior... where I chose to compete at the highest levels of organized league play.... when they were still making Mechwarrior games. What I am not crazy about is logging on to a game and having someone of a significantly higher level initiate an attack I have no hope of surviving and no option of declining. It seems to me, they would really be the "coward" in that scenario. Why else would they want to force other people in to combat in a game where two players are rarely on an even remotely level playing field.
I'm all for PvP and even zones of open PvP.... I just don't see why anyone would have a real problem with also having zones where non-consensual PvP wasn't allowed... unless their actual goal is "pwn n00bz". What exactly do you prove by beating someone in a game where playing skill matters less than level and equipment?
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
member of imminst.org
FFA PvP will never work, because you just respawn at your bind point, have a pout and a whine then carry on your day. The only way it would work is if it had the following:
1) Dead means dead. Unless someone else can find your corpse and resurrect you, you're not coming back. On the subject of finding corpses, also corpses should be moveable. The killer will obviously want to hide the body by throwing it in a lake or something similar.
2) The actul killing and anything done after, such as moving the corpse, should be tracable by some sort of Investigator class. Perhaps as simple as finding clues, footprints or a bit of torn fabric, to as varied as using magical scrying or DNA evidence, depending on the genre. The hints shouldn't be along the lines of, "Jim did it!", but subtle hints that can eventually (with some work) reveal the identity of the killer.
3) Any witnesses to the killing, even NPC's, are able to reveal the identity of the killer, unless of course the witnesses are also killed. But the more bodies, the more likely you are to be found. Some tougher witnesses, such as city guards or elite police, dependant on genre, may rush to aid the person being attacked.
There are probably a few other things, but what I'm trying to get across is that randomly killing people should have its consequences. Would our original poster still be a Wolf if his character can be tracked down for his killing, slaughtered, thrown in a ditch and buried, with no chance of ever coming back? I doubt it. Would he even feel like he wanted to be PKing people, if he knows theres a big chance that they'll lose their character for good?
Oh by the way, sorry to burst your bubble on this as well, but you've got the whole 'generation' thing wrong. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word in the way you're trying to use it.
1st generation: Games that were developed when there were no real MMOs out (UO, Meridian 59, EQ, maaaybe AC1)
2nd Generation: Games that were developed as successors to the 1st gen (DAoC, Lineage, Shadowbane, I think SWG)
3rd Gen: games developed using the knowledge and experience gained after the 2nd gen (WoW, Lineage 2, etc)
Soon we'll be having the 4th generation, etc, and if you want to include the Pre-generation as muds and such, that's fine.
But in the end, overall I'm just tired of these people who pop up to whine about pvp every now and then. You complain about WoW, that's nice. If you don't like it, don't play it. 6 Million people like it perfectly fine without ffa pvp. The developers don't care so much what you want because it's their game, they paid to make it, you only get to pay them to play it. They are raking in millions of dollars a month with the game exactly the way it is. They're not gonna change it no matter how much you cry. Companies have made FFA pvp games, so why don't you go play them? Sure they're not as popular, but if pvp is all you care about, go nuts. Shadowbane is perfect for you, they're not making any money but it's got what you want. But guess what, developers tend to stay away from making games that have previously made NO money whatsoever.
Welcome to real life, where ganking some noobs to make yourself feel cool doesn't matter that much.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I don't play video games to prove that I am e-brave. That would be like boasting of one's marksmanship with a water pistol.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Just because some one wants to PVP anywhere's doesn't mean there not the type of person to abuse it. I'm sure some would like to PVP anywhere's just to target the lower levels
Oh by the way, sorry to burst your bubble on this as well, but you've got the whole 'generation' thing wrong. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the word in the way you're trying to use it.
1st generation: Games that were developed when there were no real MMOs out (UO, Meridian 59, EQ, maaaybe AC1)
2nd Generation: Games that were developed as successors to the 1st gen (DAoC, Lineage, Shadowbane, I think SWG)
3rd Gen: games developed using the knowledge and experience gained after the 2nd gen (WoW, Lineage 2, etc)
Soon we'll be having the 4th generation, etc, and if you want to include the Pre-generation as muds and such, that's fine.
But in the end, overall I'm just tired of these people who pop up to whine about pvp every now and then. You complain about WoW, that's nice. If you don't like it, don't play it. 6 Million people like it perfectly fine without ffa pvp. The developers don't care so much what you want because it's their game, they paid to make it, you only get to pay them to play it. They are raking in millions of dollars a month with the game exactly the way it is. They're not gonna change it no matter how much you cry. Companies have made FFA pvp games, so why don't you go play them? Sure they're not as popular, but if pvp is all you care about, go nuts. Shadowbane is perfect for you, they're not making any money but it's got what you want. But guess what, developers tend to stay away from making games that have previously made NO money whatsoever.
Welcome to real life, where ganking some noobs to make yourself feel cool doesn't matter that much.
Well, EQ is definitely the first 2nd generation MMO and I never see a MMO I accept to qualify as a 3rd generation. I only see 2 generations, pre-EQ and post-EQ...which can be qualified very easily with the 3D. Some folks say Meridian belong to the same generation as EQ, maybe, honestly I never really try to consider it.
But real 3D and vast world, EQ was sure a 2nd generation. All newer MMOs still belong to that generation, I don't see why I would consider them a new generation, the difference between UO and EQ is real, you FEEL it. I don't feel such a difference in WoW or CoH compare to EQ, yes I enjoy CoH and CoV a lot more, and Auto-Assault as well...but it is the same generation as EQ.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
This constant bickering isn't getting us anywhere. Just based on my observations, a game that would suit both types of players would be a game with two opposing factions that can fight each other openly, and a neutral faction that cannot be attacked openly. This would be similar to SWG, where you are not forced to PvP, but the option is there and you can quit when you feel like it. I believe this system created a great community in SWG, and I believe it can work in other games.
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The pen is mightier than the sword, and authority is mightier than the pen, but the sword is mightier than authority.
If you can't beat 'em, hold 'em off 'till you come up with a better plan.
O think that is exactly the case. This isn't a PvP or no PvP discussion. I think most of us agree that modern MMOs need an option for people want to to have PvP combat..... it's just a tiny percent of the population that think there shouldn't be an option for people who don't want participate in PvP, or even want to be able to set a few terms on when and how PvP can be initiated without the mutual consent of both parties.
There is an obvious attempt to distort the issue and make it seem as if we are asking for games not to have PvP at all. They really want the argument to be all or nothing, PvP vs no PvP... and I really don't believe that is the case. It's funny to me that people on both sides of the argument point to the same RvR type games as the perfect "solution". I'm not even sure that many of us disagree on what we want from a PvP system. The real issue as I see it is what the hell is wrong with the few people who want to be sure there isn't anything in place that prevents them from ganking noobs?
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
O think that is exactly the case. This isn't a PvP or no PvP discussion. I think most of us agree that modern MMOs need an option for people want to to have PvP combat..... it's just a tiny percent of the population that think there shouldn't be an option for people who don't want participate in PvP, or even want to be able to set a few terms on when and how PvP can be initiated without the mutual consent of both parties.
There is an obvious attempt to distort the issue and make it seem as if we are asking for games not to have PvP at all. They really want the argument to be all or nothing, PvP vs no PvP... and I really don't believe that is the case. It's funny to me that people on both sides of the argument point to the same RvR type games as the perfect "solution". I'm not even sure that many of us disagree on what we want from a PvP system. The real issue as I see it is what the hell is wrong with the few people who want to be sure there isn't anything in place that prevents them from ganking noobs?
Exactly, which is why more MMO's need to have the two factions and neutral to cater to both players, but the PvP system needs to have risks and rewards if you are going to participate in it. In games like WoW, there are 2 factions, however you don't get to decide if you want to fight really, but it doesn't matter because the PvP is pointless anyways. In other "hardcore" games it only caters to mainly one type of player and forces people to be in uncomfortable situations. Some like this, and some don't. So why not let the people choose if they want to jump in the fight hoping for rewards, and risking something, and have the more casual players doing what they want when they want, and maybe even making a profit by crafting items for the fighters, or something like that. It would make alot of people be at a happy medium of both worlds and even the vocal minority that "wants to kill newbs" can participate in PvP, and if they want to kill neutral, there SOL.
Are you happy?
The OP reminds me of the typical ganker/griefer. You are doing your thing in game as a lowbie grinding levels and get ganked. The high level ganker then calls you a noob etc.....after a while you run into the same ganker in town and he says he's sorry and you're like whatever. So now that you haven't accepted this moron's apology he goes out of his way to be the "wolf" and gank you again because this loser clearly has masculinity issues.
The reality is these guys are just losers in the most hardcore MMORPG ever made...LIFE. So now these guys use these games to exert some power from their parents basement. Seriously it's one thing to PvP and all but being the "wolf" is just a sad and pathetic cry of a man child looking for power to exert in a game because he has no power in real life.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
While no one can deny your case scenario, it isnt something your average pro-FFA/PvP player is about.
'Griefing' can occur in any type of game that involves interaction between players. Certainly open PvP games seem to allow more avenue for the griefer-type PvPer, but the flip side of the coin is it also allows the victim more freedom to exact their revenge.
I'd also like to point out that game communities need time to grow: playing a game during open beta phase or immediately after launch is probably seeing it at its worse. PvP game communities are very aware of the trials a new player may face and are very supportive of new-comers. The lack of artificial governing systems/rules promotes more positive than negative interaction, but like everything in life good news isnt considered all that newsworthy.
and wolves dont hunt other wolves they hunt defensless sheep. sheep dont like beeing killed by wolves all the time so they prefer to play games without wolves so they can live a happy life in peace.
now what does the wolf do? maybe fight other wolves? nope to dangerous. instead the wolf visits mmorpg.com and starts flaming and offending sheep.
my advise try hunt other wolves if you want pvp because nobody thinks its fun to be the low level sheep. consider yourself lucky if you ever find that kind of masochist.
none of them have power in real life...
i'm guessing less than 1% of the worlds population actually has control... over anything.
the rest of us get sent to schools for "education" on what corporate needs us to believe.
the people who funded the making of this game, the people who design and plan relgions, who run 2 elections with puppets on both sides etc...
lets face it, anyone playing an mmo is doing so because the laws in the us and all over the world force us into abject servitude of the rich.
you may be happy to have a job, but that job only exists because it serves someone richer than yourself.
in rl, the rich plan the lives of the poor, what hours they'll work, what conditions etc...
i guess the only people who feel "desperate" to have control over something their lives are ones that have tuned into the reality channel lately
the rest of you are chanting "freedom" and "democracy" as you race off to fight yet another war for the minority ruling elite of our country
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
The opinion of the apathetic. Always a reason to do absolutely nothing, and in this free and democratic world you have the choice to do exactly that.
On this forum though: Off-Topic is one down
The problem with all PvP implementations within MMOs to date is simple -- they are set within PvE worlds and therefore, constrained by them.
The entire question of appropriateness (ref: gank vs pk vs carebear vs whatever) is beside the point.
The entire discussion of how to effectively balance the two playstyles is easily answered, but that answer is not one that is cost effective, so they (i.e., game developers) ignore it.
To implement the answer would be to essentially build two games in one. It is ironic that so many games now offer the 'game within a game' model, but still the industry refuses to note this solution as one that would revolutionize.
The answer itself is simple, elegant, and obvious - make PvP players the environment that PvE players must succeed against.
This truth I found while reading the following entry at the blog of a friend:
http://www.exsultarefenix.com/archives/145
Nothing is as exciting, as frustrating, as achingly hopeful as the word 'if'. Such an amazingly large word should have more letters, don't you think?
post after post calling for people that want open pvp to stop pushing our playstyle on everyone else... your not getting it. There are tons of MMO's out and being released. People that don't want pvp or that want limited pvp have and will continue to have plenty of games to choose from to play. By saying we want open pvp games, we aren't forcing anything on anyone, just saying we want another choice.
It seems that a lot of people here think about pvp only from their past experiences with it, or lack of experience for some. I am not concerned with whats happened before, but what needs to happen in the next game to make it work. Pointing at SB, saying we got our chance now its over, isn't cutting it. Thats like saying no new pve games should have been made, if you aren't happy with EQ1 to bad, thats it for you. A lot of the focus of this thread seems to be saying that people who enjoy my playstyle don't deserve a game that would make us happy, that our opinions are somehow 'wrong' if we aren't satisfied with /duel or a faction system of pvp in a leveling game. Nobody is trying to force anything on YOU, stop doing it to us.
Like I said before, the OP isn't a pvper, hes a ganker. His playstyle is to take advantage of others, to enjoy ruining someone else's fun. The less this is possible, the better off we all are, and if developers and players change the way pvp is done in MMO's, then maybe this wouldn't be such an issue.