Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Domoclus wrote: Surely, you have taken basic economics classes (and if you haven't, it's your loss) and are familiar with the "cost of opportunity" concept. Your achievements (loot, gold, items, honor, etc.) in a MMORPG have a very real monetary value, because you invested a substantial amount of your free time into pursuing them, or spent REAL CASH online to purchase them. If you had taken the time to learn more about economics, you'd know that the "value" of anything is largely subjective. I can buy a work of art from a famous painter for $100,000 dollars and sell it on the street for $2. In England, during the 19th century, there was literally a market surrounding tulips. Sports cards and CCGs also vary in value from week to week. The stuff I acquire IN GAME have no monetary value to me. If I'm not planning on selling for real money, then it has no "real" value. While we are moving toward a business model where we spend real money on in-game items rather than paying monthly fees, that will still be money (and time) that I had set aside to be wasted anyway. It's not the same as being robbed at all. However.... If the items in a game have "real" monetary value then it would be technically possible for a theif in a game to be CONVICTED OF REAL LIFE THEFT!! Kinda changes the nature of the debate, doesn't it? You want to tell me that the PKer hurts me by robbing me, but you'd be outraged if someone filed charges against a PKer for theft. Guess it's only risky when the risk is entirely on the victim huh?
Of course your gaming time is a very expensive investment, which you value more than what you're making per hour at your job (lest you'd be working, not playing).
And about losing items (or anything) in a game. Yes, you do get robbed, but of "virtual" items, whose value, as you put it, is subjective, meaning it's worth nothing to a thief but it's worth something (real money or your time) to you or your guild.
About suing someone for stealing your in-game property – imo, this is too far fetched. Although in the future I’m sure we will see many a case like this.
Please, I'm not willing to delve deeper into a discussion of economics, as it is not my specialty. But what I said above should be pretty obvious to anyone, especially someone who has to earn money for the living and understands their value.
I suggested the other day that Coh and Cov be merged and as in you log in and the opposing side is there its a fight till death ...period. Just like the old days of uo NOWHERE TO RUN. I said this after hearing someone go on and on about how they pvp blah blah , My opinion on pvp is stfu and do it, no shit talkin, no braggin, no crying or whining just kill or be killed. That persons reaction was something to the effect of...if that happened noone would play cov.
Honestly Im sick of people claiming they pvp or just plain running thier mouth on and on about it. And what sickens me worse is the little fags think you wont get in there and res kill a pussy till he cries. All this gay OmGROfLPwnD bs doesnt help any. So yea you make points, the games now days with "consentual" pvp do allow people to run thier mouths, I call this the House Hidin trammy syndrome.
Originally posted by bugzonlsd I suggested the other day that Coh and Cov be merged and as in you log in and the opposing side is there its a fight till death ...period. Just like the old days of uo NOWHERE TO RUN. I said this after hearing someone go on and on about how they pvp blah blah , My opinion on pvp is stfu and do it, no shit talkin, no braggin, no crying or whining just kill or be killed. That persons reaction was something to the effect of...if that happened noone would play cov. Honestly Im sick of people claiming they pvp or just plain running thier mouth on and on about it. And what sickens me worse is the little fags think you wont get in there and res kill a pussy till he cries. All this gay OmGROfLPwnD bs doesnt help any. So yea you make points, the games now days with "consentual" pvp do allow people to run thier mouths, I call this the House Hidin trammy syndrome.
Or if you don't like to kill and don't want to be killed - pay a stronger player to protect you, group with other and build city walls, etc. etc. etc. - possibilites are limitless, role playing at its best.
Whoever coined the terms PvP and PvE should not be allowed to make games, period.
Originally posted by Domoclus Originally posted by bugzonlsd I suggested the other day that Coh and Cov be merged and as in you log in and the opposing side is there its a fight till death ...period. Just like the old days of uo NOWHERE TO RUN. I said this after hearing someone go on and on about how they pvp blah blah , My opinion on pvp is stfu and do it, no shit talkin, no braggin, no crying or whining just kill or be killed. That persons reaction was something to the effect of...if that happened noone would play cov. Honestly Im sick of people claiming they pvp or just plain running thier mouth on and on about it. And what sickens me worse is the little fags think you wont get in there and res kill a pussy till he cries. All this gay OmGROfLPwnD bs doesnt help any. So yea you make points, the games now days with "consentual" pvp do allow people to run thier mouths, I call this the House Hidin trammy syndrome.
Or if you don't like to kill and don't want to be killed - pay a stronger player to protect you, group with other and build city walls, etc. etc. etc. - possibilites are limitless, role playing at its best.
Whoever coined the terms PvP and PvE should not be allowed to make games, period.
Forgot to mention, I suggested the same thing in swg to someone a good friend actually who pvp'd daily,when he asked why I dont pvp as much anymore, I said man ..you think this is pvp? Id more then willingy attack people freely all day if the game allowed. He replied with "man that would suck" LOL .The closest thng to that was to go overt and sit there but even then you still had people running around freely running thier mouths off that wouldnt.
I dont remember storm troopers asking the rebels if they wanted to duel or darth maul asking quigon if he would like to battle...he ran in and the battle occured. And for the more fantasy typed games I doubt during those times a thief had to ask if he could steal your gold and kill you, he just did.( Uo)
Now granted, even people who love pvp dont want to every second thier on.So I guess maybe a an on/off switch these days or any other is good to have, choice is great dont get me wrong, some people really just arent able due to pc problems, those people are the exception and those people tend to spectate every battle they can if they can.
I propose a new game lol... GRIEFER ONLINE, 18 and over no on/off switch, no pvp zones, you want skill, kill another player to get it, thats how you advance. No new kills equals no new skills. Instances are ..a much bigger room with alot more pvper's, have at it!
rofl...j/k there, but could you imagine HAHAHA, As for how I do in pvp,someones probably wondering by now, I wont sit here and claim to be the best, I wont even sit here and tell you I pvp daily or on a regular bases, Ive always been the type that kept his mouth shut trained his skills and built up my character so when I get those "out of nowhere" duel challenges, the guy issuing the duel respecs my skill in the end win or lose, I come at him with everything I have, and I think that is the very essense of pvp.
These types of threads really get on my nerves because they're written with a personal misunderstanding and an elitist attitude that's really not necessary. First off, some history: I've been a pvper since UO, through the pvp EQ servers (one of the very few killer clerics), DAOC and every other game I could come across. I hated what the devs did to UO just like the rest of the pvpers. I look for pvp in every new game just because that's a lot of fun. I had a HUGE reputation in Ultima Online as someone who would wander up to red pkers practically unarmed and still try to take them down (which I succeeded more than I failed because confidence is the one attribute that makes the difference between a successful pvper and a dead one).
So, whenever I see these types of posts, it really bothers me because why should we care how NON pvpers play? You CAN play WoW without once stepping on a consentual server. Pvp servers are so much more fun anyway. I used to let a server go up for awhile, and THEN after a few months I would sign on and see if I could make it to the high levels while people were already at their max, making the journey even more difficult.
In such circumstances, why even care that there are people playing on consentual servers? Their playstyle is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things.
Now then, Slapme7times.... lets see what I can do to your argument to my post....
if i was rich, and wanted you to work in my sweatshop, i'd put out the exact same propaganda for you to say.
First off the rich control little, in corporations everything is divided amongst shareholders, who are themselves slaves to the Stock Market, how ironic. I dont see how you see the rich controlling anything, I have a snob grandmother who is wealthy, and she owns little more than a semi-mansion. We work to live, but we dont live to work, many have jobs, but also manage to easily enjoy a very good life.
in what way does this free anyone from having "responsibility"? obey, and get paid a tiny portion of what your work was worth. isnt that how you afford... food?
And games, and cable, and family night outs... America gets over $40k per capita, thats the average person making a good $40k a year, compared to say, Korea, who are lucky to get $1000 per year. I dont bash on the poor, sometimes it isnt their fault, and since we have so many people with heads stuck up their rears, they probably wouldnt get hired even if they tried.
how long can you go without eating? thats how free you are.
Well this one made me giggle a little, I show freedom just by choosing to be on here, according to china anyone under, 18 is it?, cannot surf the web. Pending the web isnt monitored by a Government Spay System.
look how we've raped africa through imperialism... wait look how we've raped most of the world through imperialism.
I think you want mercantilism, or maybe Corporate Enterprise. America keeps the world's economy afloat, and vice versa, as we rely alot on trade to get our goods. America might be a Corporate Empire, those are certainly holding the economy in check, so I CAN agree that we have collapsed several economies in that way.
remember ghandi? child labor? if we care so much about human rights, why do we set up factories in countries without a minimum wage?
Yes I remember Mohandas Ghandi, he perfected ways of resisting tyranny through total nonviolence and civil disobedience.
dont you find it a little ironic that so many little african slaves die so we can commemorate our marriages? where is that in an economics textbook? nowhere
Site your sources and give me some facts as to how many die due to making our products, seriosuly if you cant then I guess your just as "blinded" as I am. No one says a man-made history book will give us all the facts
you said "in ancient egypt, the rich had to support everyone under them" what... ahah did you just pull that out of your world civ book? ancient egypt enslaved entire races, much like early america "did". slaves are worth a hell of a lot of money, thus i'm sure it was in their best interest not to let them starve,yes?
Egypt actually DID have a nice little communism going. "Enslaved entire races"? The only race we here of they enslaved were Jews and even thats being debated. So slaves are worth more money than a citizen, eh? I guees that the many millions that died from overworking just became clumsy and had accidents? You dont seem to pick on the Romans much, who were Arrogant, Decadent, and extremely cruel.
you do make a valid point. Slaveholders in the early south often higher immigrants like the irish to do particularly dangerous jobs, because it was far cheaper to let an unskilled laborer die doing a job than a slave which could be bought and sold, so in a way, the slaves of this country were alot more lucky and safe than the "free people" we are asked to be thankful to be.
Thats "Hire" by the way. And no, the Irish were better at mining, most slaves grew our crops and many more died due to overworking, so no, slaved weren't "valuable" they were "Expendable Workers", when one died you could get 5 more with the money that one had made. And this is well over 200 years ago, the mistakes of a time long since gone.
a slave holder would NEVER send a slave into combat. the value of a slave was hundreds of times the value of a "citizen".p
On the contrary, Rome LOVED sending its slaved into combat to entertain the masses, the slaves usually died to lions or to other Gladiators.
why does the author's social stigma somehow credit or discredit his/her statements?
As I said, it's extreme conjecture but have you ever heard an Emo rant? Now due that your arguments are not a direct assault on how "Pointless and empty Life is" you are very likely not this, and I was throwing it in as an afterthought.
right... and by saying that because ancient egypt fed their slaves they were saviors... you truly represent a valid and knowledgeable intellectual. how does this outlook somehow free someone from responsibility? the poor in the military arent freed. the vietnam drafts werent freed. the slaves werent freed. if you stop working, you'll starve. you havent stopped being trapped, you simply know you're trapped. obviously, this disturbs you, so you simply label my ideas as "apathy" and "emo" rather than confronting the thoughts themselves.
First, the didnt feed to them that they were Saviors, everyone knew that in the deserts of Egypt its "One for all or None for All." only cooperation would sustain them. Responsibility is not tending slaves, its mostly like keeping ones life in order and not going off the deep end. And yes, they were freed, they now how the right to choose, which is freedom, though you'll probably assault that too. Your not "Trapped" your just doing WORK, which needs to be balanced with PLAY, too much of either is very bad. Your only truly trapped inside your own head, and even that can be ironed out with willpower. No, it does nto disturb me, it's just that your thoughts and arguments reveal large quantities of apathy.
we are now dependents on the system, without the rich, we die, because corporate power has created for us the means to breed to the point where we have surpassed the carrying capacity, and now need corporate production just to say alive. just think. the native americans who own this land we live on, they once had free reign to farm and live wherever they wanted.
Without the rich we'd have a few less Corporate CEOs and maybe even politcians, which is always a good thing. Indians usually put after being able to farm, but that still didnt prevent them being attacked and enslaved by OTHER tribes, now did it? Corporations are entirely dependent on the people to stay alive themselves, without them they'd crash into the ground, more Irony.
now you cant just start farming, because a rich person owns the land. if you quit at your job, you cant just "return to nature" ownership of the land, and means of production belongs to the rich. this means that the only way tosurvive, is by compliance
The rich dont own the land, the Government does, and you cant farm now because its very expensive to buy land. If I quit a job i'd find another, one that id enjoy doing. Just because someone has a job doesnt mean they are "compliaing" to the rich, they are working to produce, grow, or otherwise manafacture a product to be bought by the public, which keeps the Corporation afloat, which keeps the man his Job and gets him paid to support himself or his family, which keeps the product on the shelves. This is where I find your lack of knowledge of Economics.
maybe we are better off not knowing that... but it's still reality.
No, it's conjecture, do you WANT to farm? If you have around $10,000 you can buy a few acres and save some money on food. My other grandmother lived on a farm and her family were quite happy, im a Kansas boy, you cant get me there :P The rich are allowed to be because they have either cushy Government jobs, A High Corporate position, maybe a movie or pop star? The rich are people with money, nothing more or less.
we now depend on a large slave class to support ourselves, and of course, create a master class with which to guide us, and control the media. if we stop now, it's true that everyone dies. It doesnt mean we can't change the system to serve the majority rather than the minority, but with enough people who believe calling something "emo" reasonably disqualifies it from being intelligible thought, it looks like that wont ever happen. facts please, not doublespeak is it really such a crime that i have a problem with you attempting to discredit ideas without actually at least mentioning the ideas themselves? one thing has been clarified. this does not excuse us from doing anything. if you stop obeying, you will die, so can we assume that it is no longer a valid argument that this justifies laziness? obviously, imminent death makes "doing nothing" a pretty bad idea for the poor doesnt it? thanks
Here we reach our final conclusion, We dont rely on a slave class, its a large middle class, im happily middle class and I've lived a happy life so far, my Step-dad, who works in the Aircraft Industry happily enjoys playing Scrabble, watching movies etc. like any other human. There is no Master Class, they might control the media but I seldom watch the news, enjoying fictional movies and comedy instead. True, maybe the weak minded allow themselves to be taken over by the media, but this happens in every country, for as long as we've had Governments.
And our Forfathers would GLADLY want to change the current state of things, but mostly on the Government scale, the rich just enjoy more amenities due to higher salaries, but they dont control much more than what products we can select and how expensive they are. I apologize for not going in to a more in-depth discussion into your ideas. If I stop WORKING to get money I might die, but when you work about the only thing you obey is "Make this many of that, ship it here at this price." Once again, the poor can seldom do anything, it's likely some desperately try to get a job, but answer me this, would you really hire a man in tattered clothes with barely a high school education, but who desperately needs the money? Or that well dressed middle-class teen who needs the extra dough to buy his favorite bands new CD?
Sorry for the length folks, had to argue my point. Let's keep our paragraph lengths down from now-on.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Originally posted by Domoclus Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Domoclus wrote: Surely, you have taken basic economics classes (and if you haven't, it's your loss) and are familiar with the "cost of opportunity" concept. Your achievements (loot, gold, items, honor, etc.) in a MMORPG have a very real monetary value, because you invested a substantial amount of your free time into pursuing them, or spent REAL CASH online to purchase them. If you had taken the time to learn more about economics, you'd know that the "value" of anything is largely subjective. I can buy a work of art from a famous painter for $100,000 dollars and sell it on the street for $2. In England, during the 19th century, there was literally a market surrounding tulips. Sports cards and CCGs also vary in value from week to week. The stuff I acquire IN GAME have no monetary value to me. If I'm not planning on selling for real money, then it has no "real" value. While we are moving toward a business model where we spend real money on in-game items rather than paying monthly fees, that will still be money (and time) that I had set aside to be wasted anyway. It's not the same as being robbed at all. However.... If the items in a game have "real" monetary value then it would be technically possible for a theif in a game to be CONVICTED OF REAL LIFE THEFT!! Kinda changes the nature of the debate, doesn't it? You want to tell me that the PKer hurts me by robbing me, but you'd be outraged if someone filed charges against a PKer for theft. Guess it's only risky when the risk is entirely on the victim huh?
Of course your gaming time is a very expensive investment, which you value more than what you're making per hour at your job (lest you'd be working, not playing).
And about losing items (or anything) in a game. Yes, you do get robbed, but of "virtual" items, whose value, as you put it, is subjective, meaning it's worth nothing to a thief but it's worth something (real money or your time) to you or your guild.
About suing someone for stealing your in-game property – imo, this is too far fetched. Although in the future I’m sure we will see many a case like this.
Please, I'm not willing to delve deeper into a discussion of economics, as it is not my specialty. But what I said above should be pretty obvious to anyone, especially someone who has to earn money for the living and understands their value.
also if you read the EULA of most mmo's they will state that all items in the game world remain the property of the company. Such is why CoH got in trouble for haveing created patterens that would allow for people to create their favorite Marvel and D.C heroes. The individual didn't get in trouble since the patterns and characters themselves were actually still the property of CoH. Such would be the items you get using premium services. Your not buying a tangible object but rather paying for its use in game. So if some one "steals" it from you there isn't much you can do unless the devs don't like the idea. At wich time the item can be removed from that character and given back to you. I don't ever see some one being sued or going to jail for stealing in a game that allows stealing. Then again McDonald's got sued because some fat bastard couldn't control their food intake, and serving hot cofee.
While I also agree, consensual PvP is crap, the problem is that a majority of people disagree with that notion.
I personally love the idea of murdering othe rplayers. Sometimes, for a good reason, sometimes, I just see a player's name and want to PK them (for example, SSJCLOUDIROTHXXX, that's a K.O.S. in my book). The open ended aspect of PvP is what draws me to it.
The problems, however, are created by gankers and PKers. Now, I think there's plenty of ways to handle this, just not without aggravating some portion of the population in game.
For example, if there's a particular PKer, just have a GM pop, murder the aforementioned PKer, and throw his body into a high level zone with all of his gear on it. Then, give that player a death penalty, a hellacious corpserun, hindered stats, and the maybe a bullseye on them. That way, all the lowbies that he killed can return him the favor once or twice. Sure, it's grotesque, but it still gives the players the option to be a ganking smacktard, with severe repercussions.
Another idea is to just keep it with WoW's honor system. Make it so characters that don't have a chance to fight you don't take a penalty. However, I think if a high level vs a high level fight goes on, someone should lose something. Whether it's a stat, an item, some money, or something. It would keep it so that more high level players are on their toes, while also sort of encouraging guild warfare too. After all, 2 high level guilds fight each other, they get items from the other guild. It'd be cool.
I do believe a problem right now with open PvP is the involvement of RMT. No one likes being PKed by chinamen farmers/botters, no one likes losing to people who buy all their money/items/levels off eBay. The fact is, PvP seems to draw out the biggest punks of all. At least that's been my experience.
So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that unless game companies either incorporate a strict, yet open PvP system, with some active GM monitoring, I don't think open PvP will ever be as rewarding as it once was.
That's my 2 cents...
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
The wolf vs. sheep comment. Absolutely pathetic. I would corpseguard you for hours if I ever saw you in any game, haha. Seriously, that might be the lamest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
The wolf vs. sheep comment. Absolutely pathetic. I would corpseguard you for hours if I ever saw you in any game, haha. Seriously, that might be the lamest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Frankly, I have no choice but to second this opinion...
Originally posted by StalJester Originally posted by Cymdai Oh, by the way...
The wolf vs. sheep comment. Absolutely pathetic. I would corpseguard you for hours if I ever saw you in any game, haha. Seriously, that might be the lamest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Frankly, I have no choice but to second this opinion...
Rofl. Corpse Guard? If you have to corpse guard someone in a MMORPG that mmorpg must be pretty damn carebear. I say if you manage to kill me you take all my loot and i'll res back in town to regear and come find you eventually and try to gain revenge.
Now then, Slapme7times.... lets see what I can do to your argument to my post....
if i was rich, and wanted you to work in my sweatshop, i'd put out the exact same propaganda for you to say.
First off the rich control little, in corporations everything is divided amongst shareholders, who are themselves slaves to the Stock Market, how ironic. I dont see how you see the rich controlling anything, I have a snob grandmother who is wealthy, and she owns little more than a semi-mansion. We work to live, but we dont live to work, many have jobs, but also manage to easily enjoy a very good life.
---- only rich people can afford a significant number of shares. semi wealthy? i'm talking about billionaires... millionaire rich. hahaha. thats a good one.
in what way does this free anyone from having "responsibility"? obey, and get paid a tiny portion of what your work was worth. isnt that how you afford... food?
And games, and cable, and family night outs... America gets over $40k per capita, thats the average person making a good $40k a year, compared to say, Korea, who are lucky to get $1000 per year. I dont bash on the poor, sometimes it isnt their fault, and since we have so many people with heads stuck up their rears, they probably wouldnt get hired even if they tried.
---- how does this change the fact that you must work or starve? "sometimes it isnt their fault" The american lifestyle that obvously you seem to enjoy requires billions of other people to work in american sweatshops for nothing. i suppose that becuase you were born in america you magically became imbued with the power to be "middle"class, and thus all your successes and failures are you own. thats a good euphemism, and one that breeds imperialism.
how long can you go without eating? thats how free you are.
Well this one made me giggle a little, I show freedom just by choosing to be on here, according to china anyone under, 18 is it?, cannot surf the web. Pending the web isnt monitored by a Government Spay System.
- can you tell me who builds factories in china to take advantage of cheap and obedient sources of labor?
- do you agree with america perpetuating this and then hypocritcally claiming to beleive in freedom when it knows if the rest of the world was "free" of corporate abuse that we would exist?
look how we've raped africa through imperialism... wait look how we've raped most of the world through imperialism.
I think you want mercantilism, or maybe Corporate Enterprise. America keeps the world's economy afloat, and vice versa, as we rely alot on trade to get our goods. America might be a Corporate Empire, those are certainly holding the economy in check, so I CAN agree that we have collapsed several economies in that way.
-several? i'm talking about them going in, killing babies, and taking the workers to be slaves.
remember ghandi? child labor? if we care so much about human rights, why do we set up factories in countries without a minimum wage?
Yes I remember Mohandas Ghandi, he perfected ways of resisting tyranny through total nonviolence and civil disobedience.
-he disliked how the western world raped his home.
-you hypocritcally praise him when he hates everything you love, when countries like ours are directly reponsible for suffering in countries like his.
dont you find it a little ironic that so many little african slaves die so we can commemorate our marriages? where is that in an economics textbook? nowhere
Site your sources and give me some facts as to how many die due to making our products, seriosuly if you cant then I guess your just as "blinded" as I am. No one says a man-made history book will give us all the facts
--- you dont beleive me? go read national geographic.
--- go watch the movie "darwins nightmare" 2004. that you will like
you said "in ancient egypt, the rich had to support everyone under them" what... ahah did you just pull that out of your world civ book? ancient egypt enslaved entire races, much like early america "did". slaves are worth a hell of a lot of money, thus i'm sure it was in their best interest not to let them starve,yes?
Egypt actually DID have a nice little communism going. "Enslaved entire races"? The only race we here of they enslaved were Jews and even thats being debated. So slaves are worth more money than a citizen, eh? I guees that the many millions that died from overworking just became clumsy and had accidents? You dont seem to pick on the Romans much, who were Arrogant, Decadent, and extremely cruel.
--- that was never communism, there has never been a communist organization on this planet ever. that is merely anti-socialist propaganda, ussr and china NEVER had communist ideas ever.
--- notice i said slaves in america, you know, back when we had to ship them in malaria ridden boats overseas to get to us? they called it the "slave trade" because they were bought and sold like any other resource, hyper capitalism if you will.
---i'm not trying to pick on anyone, he said "what about egypt, the rich supported the poor there" and i said they had good reason too.
--- if a rich person allows a slave to die, it's because there are so many slaves that we just needed to get rid of them. we didnt kill slaves in america because they had to be shipped in boats, they werent simply a neighboring people we conquered and assimilated as slaves, it took actual ever and an opportunity cost to get them here.
]-- you keep intentfully pulling me out ofcontext, slaves in america were worth alot of money, which is why people started highering immigrants to do dangerous jobs
--- by the time of the industrial revolution, people realized they could pay employees as little as they wanted because there was such a large laborforce (they allowed us to overbreed to decrease our value)
--- health standards in factories, and wages dropped to nothing, which is essentially the exact same thing we have going on in 3rd world countries all over the world today. we've allowed them to over breed, and now force them to work for starvation wages because the competition for jobs is so high.
how is that the poors fault?
you do make a valid point. Slaveholders in the early south often higher immigrants like the irish to do particularly dangerous jobs, because it was far cheaper to let an unskilled laborer die doing a job than a slave which could be bought and sold, so in a way, the slaves of this country were alot more lucky and safe than the "free people" we are asked to be thankful to be.
Thats "Hire" by the way. And no, the Irish were better at mining, most slaves grew our crops and many more died due to overworking, so no, slaved weren't "valuable" they were "Expendable Workers", when one died you could get 5 more with the money that one had made. And this is well over 200 years ago, the mistakes of a time long since gone.
--- no... slaves cost thousands of dollars a peice, and if and immigrant died doing a job, you lost nothing because you had no one to pay (they were dead)
how does that make a slave an expendable worker? it doesnt, it makes the free person a more expendable worker.
--- the irish werent better at mining, mining was inherently more dangerous than farming, and thus those whom employers had no responsibility to were sent.
---why does it matter what industry we are talking about? when did i say irishmen were bad farmers. the point is the methodology behind the abuse of the poor, not which job each poor person did.
a slave holder would NEVER send a slave into combat. the value of a slave was hundreds of times the value of a "citizen".p
On the contrary, Rome LOVED sending its slaved into combat to entertain the masses, the slaves usually died to lions or to other Gladiators.
---- thanks russel crowe. were talking about America, and no, slaves were not sent to fight in the revolutionary war... it probably would have been cruely ironic to send them, we only fought it to keep slavery alive.
why does the author's social stigma somehow credit or discredit his/her statements?
As I said, it's extreme conjecture but have you ever heard an Emo rant? Now due that your arguments are not a direct assault on how "Pointless and empty Life is" you are very likely not this, and I was throwing it in as an afterthought.
--- you seem to be more annoyed that someone else isnt as enamored by the same paper thin world you are. why exactly does the world have a point again, oh brainwashed one?
right... and by saying that because ancient egypt fed their slaves they were saviors... you truly represent a valid and knowledgeable intellectual. how does this outlook somehow free someone from responsibility? the poor in the military arent freed. the vietnam drafts werent freed. the slaves werent freed. if you stop working, you'll starve. you havent stopped being trapped, you simply know you're trapped. obviously, this disturbs you, so you simply label my ideas as "apathy" and "emo" rather than confronting the thoughts themselves.
First, the didnt feed to them that they were Saviors, everyone knew that in the deserts of Egypt its "One for all or None for All." only cooperation would sustain them. Responsibility is not tending slaves, its mostly like keeping ones life in order and not going off the deep end. And yes, they were freed, they now how the right to choose, which is freedom, though you'll probably assault that too. Your not "Trapped" your just doing WORK, which needs to be balanced with PLAY, too much of either is very bad. Your only truly trapped inside your own head, and even that can be ironed out with willpower. No, it does nto disturb me, it's just that your thoughts and arguments reveal large quantities of apathy.
-- apathy where apathy is due, just like all human emotions correct? --- these is just another blatant lie created by the rich, that by working together the poor are actually helping themselves. --- people starve to death because the rich make them build temples instead of grow food, pick cotton instead of pick apples, and when food is actually collected , the poor cannot afford what they are working to produce.
i cannot exactly understand how you've missed the 60 minute specials on blood diamonds, on bangledesh, on africa, etc etc etc.
we are now dependents on the system, without the rich, we die, because corporate power has created for us the means to breed to the point where we have surpassed the carrying capacity, and now need corporate production just to say alive. just think. the native americans who own this land we live on, they once had free reign to farm and live wherever they wanted.
Without the rich we'd have a few less Corporate CEOs and maybe even politcians, which is always a good thing. Indians usually put after being able to farm, but that still didnt prevent them being attacked and enslaved by OTHER tribes, now did it? Corporations are entirely dependent on the people to stay alive themselves, without them they'd crash into the ground, more Irony.
yea, the irony that we are too ignorant and brainwashed to demand equal rights, like the right to life. the irony is that you sit here and congradulate them for enslaving you, and 99% of the rest of the world, and then tell me it's ironic without seeing the irony.
the irony is that we are too dumb to stand up for our masters... yes tahnkyamassa
now you cant just start farming, because a rich person owns the land. if you quit at your job, you cant just "return to nature" ownership of the land, and means of production belongs to the rich. this means that the only way tosurvive, is by compliance
The rich dont own the land, the Government does, and you cant farm now because its very expensive to buy land. If I quit a job i'd find another, one that id enjoy doing. Just because someone has a job doesnt mean they are "compliaing" to the rich, they are working to produce, grow, or otherwise manafacture a product to be bought by the public, which keeps the Corporation afloat, which keeps the man his Job and gets him paid to support himself or his family, which keeps the product on the shelves. This is where I find your lack of knowledge of Economics.
----yea, and who owns the government?
exactly, you dont get to own land, because you are a member of the landless or poor class, the proletariat. if you do get land it's probably a 1/2 acre lot.
the point is, we are systematically forced to work and obey because without doing so, we die.
find a job you like? how do you like assembling walmart pants for 18 hours a day, then going home to sleep under yourcardboard box? welcome to 3rd world production.
but you can find something else to do... like starve to death.----
maybe we are better off not knowing that... but it's still reality.
No, it's conjecture, do you WANT to farm? If you have around $10,000 you can buy a few acres and save some money on food. My other grandmother lived on a farm and her family were quite happy, im a Kansas boy, you cant get me there :P The rich are allowed to be because they have either cushy Government jobs, A High Corporate position, maybe a movie or pop star? The rich are people with money, nothing more or less.
--- and in a capitalist society, money can buy you anything. since we are dependent on money, the rich who inherit it, are at somewhat of an advantage arent they?
we now depend on a large slave class to support ourselves, and of course, create a master class with which to guide us, and control the media. if we stop now, it's true that everyone dies. It doesnt mean we can't change the system to serve the majority rather than the minority, but with enough people who believe calling something "emo" reasonably disqualifies it from being intelligible thought, it looks like that wont ever happen. facts please, not doublespeak is it really such a crime that i have a problem with you attempting to discredit ideas without actually at least mentioning the ideas themselves? one thing has been clarified. this does not excuse us from doing anything. if you stop obeying, you will die, so can we assume that it is no longer a valid argument that this justifies laziness? obviously, imminent death makes "doing nothing" a pretty bad idea for the poor doesnt it? thanks
Here we reach our final conclusion, We dont rely on a slave class, its a large middle class, im happily middle class and I've lived a happy life so far, my Step-dad, who works in the Aircraft Industry happily enjoys playing Scrabble, watching movies etc. like any other human. There is no Master Class, they might control the media but I seldom watch the news, enjoying fictional movies and comedy instead. True, maybe the weak minded allow themselves to be taken over by the media, but this happens in every country, for as long as we've had Governments.
--exactly, you are happy. thats all the delusion you need.
--- and who controls the government in a capitalist system?
And our Forfathers would GLADLY want to change the current state of things, but mostly on the Government scale, the rich just enjoy more amenities due to higher salaries, but they dont control much more than what products we can select and how expensive they are. I apologize for not going in to a more in-depth discussion into your ideas. If I stop WORKING to get money I might die, but when you work about the only thing you obey is "Make this many of that, ship it here at this price." Once again, the poor can seldom do anything, it's likely some desperately try to get a job, but answer me this, would you really hire a man in tattered clothes with barely a high school education, but who desperately needs the money? Or that well dressed middle-class teen who needs the extra dough to buy his favorite bands new CD?
-exactly, the poor can seldom do anything. we have no money, and thus no influence, which means we must simply adapt the a machinations of the rich, as we always have.
but like you said earlier, it's ironic that the poor arethe ones who keep the rich afloat.
your right, why, in a democracy, where the majority are supposed to rule, is the majority of america poor?
keep asking questions like that, and you too will start to wonder whether or not the rules and laws of this country, and all countries actually exist to help poor people.
when this country first began, as long as you werent black you realy were free to go where you pleased, find a piece of land, build a home.
now some corporation has rights to cut down the entire forest, now the land is owned by the government so that only the rich can afford to expand.
we are trapped in so many amazing and clever ways. thomas jefferson said the dream of a merica was for a man to have 100 acres of land, and mule.
i dare you to find any but the ruling elite who can afford 100 acres of land.
in our country, 70% of the resources are in the hands of 5% of the population. how can you explain such inequality in a country where the majority rules? why dont the poor do something about it?
there really is no answer, and the lack of answer is conversely, the answer itself. there are huge gaping questions about why the world works as it does, most obviously, because something is flawed.
--you act like america, a country with under 300 million people, constitutes the entire 7billion population of the earth.
america's "middle" class who makes 100,000 or 1,000,000 dollars a year arent in the middle. were simply above the poor. the rich in this country do not work, they decide how the poor of the world get to work. they decide just how dangerous the factories will be, just how much asbestos we will be exposed to.
-
Sorry for the length folks, had to argue my point. Let's keep our paragraph lengths down from now-on.
the reason we dont understand each other, is because we are looking at this from different perspectives.
all poor poeple are born having nothing. when they see things like jobs, they immediately assume they are lucky and should be thankful to have them.
from a rich persons stand point, you have billions of individuals who are willing to believe that, and all you have to do to tap that is simply set up a factor. we will predictably work there and be thankful for what we are given, breeding more. our children with then also be dependent on the system the rich build for us, also thankful, believing that the rich serve us in some way.
maybe you are perfectly happy to be "middle" class, to have a mercedes and an ice house...
but there are people in other countries who are paid so little, they can barely survive.
corporations end up inflicting massive damage upon those who, like us, thankful for what they are "given"
industrialization can destroy and ecosystem, and if corporations tap all available resources, they'll pack up and leave, dooming all their workers and their workers families to starvation and abject poverty, far worse than they had before.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by Luzario Originally posted by StalJester Originally posted by Cymdai Oh, by the way...
The wolf vs. sheep comment. Absolutely pathetic. I would corpseguard you for hours if I ever saw you in any game, haha. Seriously, that might be the lamest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Frankly, I have no choice but to second this opinion...
Rofl. Corpse Guard? If you have to corpse guard someone in a MMORPG that mmorpg must be pretty damn carebear. I say if you manage to kill me you take all my loot and i'll res back in town to regear and come find you eventually and try to gain revenge.
booyah!
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
I cant believe you could even think courage has anything to do with playing games. firefighters are courageous, policemen are courageous, soldier are courageous, a guy sitting at his computer snacking away fighting anyone he can find with thier online toon in a computer game is not courageous.
Games are for entertainment and hey, maybe getting ganked and having to start from square one isnt very entertaining to the people who pay MONTHLY for these things.
But i do like the idea of having to respawn back at town and regearing etc i mean, it is just a game (hey, you could round up a possy and go hunt him down, or hire a merc, that would be some fun stuff). well i guess what it all comes down to is if your not having fun playing a particular game, dont try to change it just to suite yourself and go find another game that you might like.
Originally posted by two2litres Games are for entertainment and hey, maybe getting ganked and having to start from square one isnt very entertaining to the people who pay MONTHLY for these things.
I'm not saying you personally, but if you know that a game is going to have PVP and extreme consequences from death BEFOREHAND and you still drop down the credit card and pay the monthly subscription then noone is going to take you serious when you start whining and complaining.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Please, WoW has 3 different servers, pvp, pve, and role play. I have played on all 3 types. My personal fav is the pve. Getting ganked before you know whats happening can be fun but it isnt worth the effort if you just want the rpg exsperience. WoW has its ups and downs on all asspects but overall its a good game. Any idiot can lvl cap his/her character in no time. Then before you know it you have to start another just to stay awake at your keyboard. If thats the case go pvp. You'll stay awake, you'll watch your back and most of all you will die on several occasions. I love playing pve and being challenged to duel every time I turn around. I prefer just ignoring the guy and walking off. Why bother with it if you dont like it? Yeah, my hunter has the same chances of owning any other class just like Ive been owned before. It all in the way you play, no class is better then the other, its the player knowing what he/she is doing. Declining a duel can be a pain cause they harrass you for being a coward. BULL!!! Dont bother me when Im doing a quest or shopping in town just to feed your pitiful ego because noone liked you in elementary school and its the only way to make yourself feel good about being picked on, go away and go to a pvp server, no harm no foul.
BUT! On the other hand pvp is what alot of people like. The game has its own challenges yet people want the rush of the beat down you will recieve if you dont defend yourself. Horde and Alliance are story lined to hate each other and to knock it out when they cross paths. You'll hear different versions on any server which side rules. My server, horde are the top dogs but I dont care cause Im Alliance and dont get into the pvp thing as much as I used to. And by the way, the wolf would be skinned if he crossed my path on a bad day. This sheep has teeth and bites back when he needs to LOL. They say violence is running wild in games these days, I say better on the screen then in the streets. No matter what style of play you prefer, dont push it on others cause not everyone likes the sdame thing. You stick with your server Ill stick with mine and pray the wolf doesnt get an itch for a transfer cause I can track Trolls.
Obviosuly, Slapme7times, my arguments make no impact and you apparently dont see my point, though I laugh when you say I praise Ghandi when he hated everything I loved, sorry my friend but he was a peaceful man with modest goals, he reached it, though some idiot had to go and kill him, and Lord im not getting into that. I loved how he, Martin Luther, and others followed his methods, this is enough on these topics.
I've got little else to say about Cowardice in games, only that is doesnt exist and neither does Honor. Those who say there is are pretty pathetic people. Though it brings me about in that why must people bring these topics aboust when there are so many games for everyone?
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
17 pages, one of the longest debates going on here, very nice. It is time I step in.
Originally posted by Luzario Consensual PVP allows cowardice to go rampant.
Let us take World of Peacecraft err I mean warcraft for instance. This is a game where no one can be punished. A game where someone can mouth off at you and you can do nothing about it. You cannot defend your honor in this game and you have absolutely no control over anything. It is not "your" game it is "Blizzards" game and you can go on "their" ride but it won't ever be "your" journey. Mmmorpgs like Everquest & Star wars galaxies encourage players to "hide" behind an invisible wall of protection allowing them to be greedy & selfish thus destroying the community.
In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this. In a game where everyone is a sheep and there are no wolves you're gonna have gay sheep running around all day thinking they are all that when they are realy not.
Long live the old days of MMORPGs.
These are the generations:
1st generation MMORPGS: Barbaric & Ultra Violent (UO, Meridian 59, muds, shadowbane, ac darktide)
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
Luzario
To the OP - I agree with you 99% - the only problem I have with your statement is that it almost sounds too extreme.
I agree with you, the first generations of MMO's were mostly barbaric and violent, with little rules and restrictions, becuase of various reasons. The most prominent one is the time factor. At that time MMO's were targeted to the more hardcore gamer who loved exciting PvP with adrenaline rushes and stuff that kept you awake and partying until 2am in the morning. It allowed FFA PvP, deaths with harsh penalties, looting. PvP was exciting and 90% of the time fun. becuase of the low popularity of MMO's, companies did not pour in alot of money and time into them, thus they were not all worried about complaints from players and the sort. Exploiting bugs were something of a common occurance. I remember in AC when macros were used all the time. In some games they probably still are, like autominer in RS.
The later MMO's got gradualley less and less harsher. DAOC, SWG, COH, and who can forget WoW. WoW, being the standard of MMO's, has abosolutely no death penalty with no looting. The "honor system" is completly crap, rewarding only the most hardcore players that played for weeks straight with little to no sleep. The game is geared towards casual gamers, but at the same time, you really cant advance. Looting? No way. Corpse retrevials? Not really. I can fall asleep while playing WoW PvP, and beielive it or not, PvP makes or breaks an interesting and exciting/fun video game. What are you going to do all day, farm? how FUN is farming? Congratulations, youve killed the biggest and baddest boss, go you. Go you for clicking over and over and beating an AI. Really, people, grow a freakin brain. Grow some emotions. Is it that hard?
But the most thing that pisses me off totally is players that generalize people who support FFA PvP. The general response that most of you are reading this are thinking:
"Im sorry but the majority of gamers dont think its fun to get ganked. If you like ganking other people lower than your level and it makes you feel big, there arent any games out there left for you. Sucks to be you, bitch."
In actuality, there are probably more players that support FFA pvp that disagree with you. It is not the ganking that they like. They hate it as much as everyone else. Ganking is something that they dont do, rather, they look for an exciting and fun fight. Still dont understand what Im saying? here, I'll put it in caps and big shiny letters on your computer screen:
Not everyone who likes FFA PvP ganks noobs!!!!!111
I have known tons of people who look for a fair fight and they dont take the jump on someone. The truth is, the people who gank other noobs are in the miniority, and who suck at playing the game, and are simply cowards. I would say a good 40% of FFA pvprs are gankers, and thats it. This is a common misconception thats wrong. You got ganked? Get over it. Wipe your tears away, folks, its a game, nothing more. All the more for you to level up and get them back. The OP is right, its boring to have no death penalty. Want to feel that adrenaline rush? I dont get that while playing WoW. There is NO DEATH IN WOW. I REPEAT, WHEN YOU DIE, YOU DONT REALLY DIE.
There are more people who actually like pvp than you know out there. They are just afraid to speak up becuase of people who put them down all the time. In fact, its almost looked down now in MMO society, with people who support PVE as the "cool" and "nice" people and the people who like pvp the "savages". This isnt true. People who like PvP are the players that REALLY want to play an MMO with full interaction with other players. They want excitement, fun. They want freedom back into MMO's, something that is long gone.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Not everyone who likes FFA PvP ganks noobs!!!!!111
Your buddy said "In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this." Do you really expect us to believe that someome who calls themselves a wolf preying on sheep seeks out equal fights? The fact that you even attempted to argue this, especially after you quoted the wolves comment, invalidates everything else you said.
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected dangers (think about it).
I would say this is games like Risk Your Life and Rising Force Online.... Battling against other races... You cant really kill your own race
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Not everyone who likes FFA PvP ganks noobs!!!!!111
Your buddy said "In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this." Do you really expect us to believe that someome who calls themselves a wolf preying on sheep seeks out equal fights? The fact that you even attempted to argue this, especially after you quoted the wolves comment, invalidates everything else you said.
He was simply using a figure of speech, naturally you took it the wrong way and assumed he meant weaker players. What he means is people that are passive, that dont even attack. Maybe people that are weaker, yes, but as you quoted me I meant noobs. There will always be players that attack a person that has a disadvantage, and the fight becomes interesting because of something called skill comes in as a factor. Furthermore, as you quoted me I said "not everyone" so this is another fact that proves your post has no validity.
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
But alot of people do, and that is why most people that dont like pvp, is becuase they have been pk'd (yes there is a difference) by some high lvl player trying to get his jollies off, and look cool to his friends. And I'll bet that people who "gank" new players, would be the same way being pissy if they went to a new game and the same happen to them. Wolf or not
Rofl. Corpse Guard? If you have to corpse guard someone in a MMORPG that mmorpg must be pretty damn carebear. I say if you manage to kill me you take all my loot and i'll res back in town to regear and come find you eventually and try to gain revenge.
Haha, you could TRY to kill me. But I'll tell ya, if you wanted to keep funding me with new gear to loot off your corpse everytime, I'd say after the second or 3rd time, I'd be sporting some pretty fancy threads.
Besides, Mr. Wolf, wouldn't you be a little too busy with your sheep? Dick around with the sheep long enough, and a sheperd is gonna come in and kick your ass six ways from Sunday.
Call me Mr. Sheperd ^_^
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Well, if you say so, then it must be true. I am sure the rest of the world has just been experiencing the 98% minority noob gankers, and nor this vast 2% majority good PvPers you talk about.
You know who the real cowards are? The people that do not dare to meet others if similar level in an honest fight, but scream for years for a freeforall PvP system where they get points and loot for killing lvl 1s. If you ever wonder why noone ever give you the respect you think, in your imagination, you deserve... Its because the only cowrds experienced gamers has ever met the last 15 years.. has been FF PvPers... And man they like to whine in forums if they do not get what they want "Bwaaah, I cant kill defenceless people, only people of my level, this sucks! Nerf all other levels!!"
So, go back to the whining... We really really care.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Originally posted by Harafnir Well, if you say so, then it must be true. I am sure the rest of the world has just been experiencing the 98% minority noob gankers, and nor this vast 2% majority good PvPers you talk about. You know who the real cowards are? The people that do not dare to meet others if similar level in an honest fight, but scream for years for a freeforall PvP system where they get points and loot for killing lvl 1s. If you ever wonder why noone ever give you the respect you think, in your imagination, you deserve... Its because the only cowrds experienced gamers has ever met the last 15 years.. has been FF PvPers... And man they like to whine in forums if they do not get what they want "Bwaaah, I cant kill defenceless people, only people of my level, this sucks! Nerf all other levels!!" So, go back to the whining... We really really care.
QFT.......angry manchilds FTL.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Comments
Of course your gaming time is a very expensive investment,
which you value more than what you're making per hour at your job (lest you'd
be working, not playing).
And about losing items (or anything) in a game. Yes, you do get robbed, but of "virtual" items, whose value, as you put it, is subjective,
meaning it's worth nothing to a thief but it's worth something (real money or
your time) to you or your guild.
About suing someone for stealing your in-game property –
imo, this is too far fetched. Although in the future I’m sure we will see
many a case like this.
Please, I'm not willing to delve deeper into a discussion of economics, as it
is not my specialty. But what I said above should be pretty obvious to anyone,
especially someone who has to earn money for the living and understands their
value.
I suggested the other day that Coh and Cov be merged and as in you log in and the opposing side is there its a fight till death ...period. Just like the old days of uo NOWHERE TO RUN. I said this after hearing someone go on and on about how they pvp blah blah , My opinion on pvp is stfu and do it, no shit talkin, no braggin, no crying or whining just kill or be killed. That persons reaction was something to the effect of...if that happened noone would play cov.
Honestly Im sick of people claiming they pvp or just plain running thier mouth on and on about it. And what sickens me worse is the little fags think you wont get in there and res kill a pussy till he cries. All this gay OmGROfLPwnD bs doesnt help any. So yea you make points, the games now days with "consentual" pvp do allow people to run thier mouths, I call this the House Hidin trammy syndrome.
Whoever coined the terms PvP and PvE should not be allowed to make games, period.
Whoever coined the terms PvP and PvE should not be allowed to make games, period.
Forgot to mention, I suggested the same thing in swg to someone a good friend actually who pvp'd daily,when he asked why I dont pvp as much anymore, I said man ..you think this is pvp? Id more then willingy attack people freely all day if the game allowed. He replied with "man that would suck" LOL .The closest thng to that was to go overt and sit there but even then you still had people running around freely running thier mouths off that wouldnt.
I dont remember storm troopers asking the rebels if they wanted to duel or darth maul asking quigon if he would like to battle...he ran in and the battle occured. And for the more fantasy typed games I doubt during those times a thief had to ask if he could steal your gold and kill you, he just did.( Uo)
Now granted, even people who love pvp dont want to every second thier on.So I guess maybe a an on/off switch these days or any other is good to have, choice is great dont get me wrong, some people really just arent able due to pc problems, those people are the exception and those people tend to spectate every battle they can if they can.
I propose a new game lol... GRIEFER ONLINE, 18 and over no on/off switch, no pvp zones, you want skill, kill another player to get it, thats how you advance. No new kills equals no new skills. Instances are ..a much bigger room with alot more pvper's, have at it!
rofl...j/k there, but could you imagine HAHAHA, As for how I do in pvp,someones probably wondering by now, I wont sit here and claim to be the best, I wont even sit here and tell you I pvp daily or on a regular bases, Ive always been the type that kept his mouth shut trained his skills and built up my character so when I get those "out of nowhere" duel challenges, the guy issuing the duel respecs my skill in the end win or lose, I come at him with everything I have, and I think that is the very essense of pvp.
These types of threads really get on my nerves because they're written with a personal misunderstanding and an elitist attitude that's really not necessary. First off, some history: I've been a pvper since UO, through the pvp EQ servers (one of the very few killer clerics), DAOC and every other game I could come across. I hated what the devs did to UO just like the rest of the pvpers. I look for pvp in every new game just because that's a lot of fun. I had a HUGE reputation in Ultima Online as someone who would wander up to red pkers practically unarmed and still try to take them down (which I succeeded more than I failed because confidence is the one attribute that makes the difference between a successful pvper and a dead one).
So, whenever I see these types of posts, it really bothers me because why should we care how NON pvpers play? You CAN play WoW without once stepping on a consentual server. Pvp servers are so much more fun anyway. I used to let a server go up for awhile, and THEN after a few months I would sign on and see if I could make it to the high levels while people were already at their max, making the journey even more difficult.
In such circumstances, why even care that there are people playing on consentual servers? Their playstyle is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things.
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
Now then, Slapme7times.... lets see what I can do to your argument to my post....
First off the rich control little, in corporations everything is divided amongst shareholders, who are themselves slaves to the Stock Market, how ironic. I dont see how you see the rich controlling anything, I have a snob grandmother who is wealthy, and she owns little more than a semi-mansion. We work to live, but we dont live to work, many have jobs, but also manage to easily enjoy a very good life.
And games, and cable, and family night outs... America gets over $40k per capita, thats the average person making a good $40k a year, compared to say, Korea, who are lucky to get $1000 per year. I dont bash on the poor, sometimes it isnt their fault, and since we have so many people with heads stuck up their rears, they probably wouldnt get hired even if they tried.
Well this one made me giggle a little, I show freedom just by choosing to be on here, according to china anyone under, 18 is it?, cannot surf the web. Pending the web isnt monitored by a Government Spay System.
I think you want mercantilism, or maybe Corporate Enterprise. America keeps the world's economy afloat, and vice versa, as we rely alot on trade to get our goods. America might be a Corporate Empire, those are certainly holding the economy in check, so I CAN agree that we have collapsed several economies in that way.
Yes I remember Mohandas Ghandi, he perfected ways of resisting tyranny through total nonviolence and civil disobedience.
Site your sources and give me some facts as to how many die due to making our products, seriosuly if you cant then I guess your just as "blinded" as I am. No one says a man-made history book will give us all the facts
Egypt actually DID have a nice little communism going. "Enslaved entire races"? The only race we here of they enslaved were Jews and even thats being debated. So slaves are worth more money than a citizen, eh? I guees that the many millions that died from overworking just became clumsy and had accidents? You dont seem to pick on the Romans much, who were Arrogant, Decadent, and extremely cruel.
Thats "Hire" by the way. And no, the Irish were better at mining, most slaves grew our crops and many more died due to overworking, so no, slaved weren't "valuable" they were "Expendable Workers", when one died you could get 5 more with the money that one had made. And this is well over 200 years ago, the mistakes of a time long since gone.
On the contrary, Rome LOVED sending its slaved into combat to entertain the masses, the slaves usually died to lions or to other Gladiators.
As I said, it's extreme conjecture but have you ever heard an Emo rant? Now due that your arguments are not a direct assault on how "Pointless and empty Life is" you are very likely not this, and I was throwing it in as an afterthought.
First, the didnt feed to them that they were Saviors, everyone knew that in the deserts of Egypt its "One for all or None for All." only cooperation would sustain them. Responsibility is not tending slaves, its mostly like keeping ones life in order and not going off the deep end. And yes, they were freed, they now how the right to choose, which is freedom, though you'll probably assault that too. Your not "Trapped" your just doing WORK, which needs to be balanced with PLAY, too much of either is very bad. Your only truly trapped inside your own head, and even that can be ironed out with willpower. No, it does nto disturb me, it's just that your thoughts and arguments reveal large quantities of apathy.
Without the rich we'd have a few less Corporate CEOs and maybe even politcians, which is always a good thing. Indians usually put after being able to farm, but that still didnt prevent them being attacked and enslaved by OTHER tribes, now did it? Corporations are entirely dependent on the people to stay alive themselves, without them they'd crash into the ground, more Irony.
The rich dont own the land, the Government does, and you cant farm now because its very expensive to buy land. If I quit a job i'd find another, one that id enjoy doing. Just because someone has a job doesnt mean they are "compliaing" to the rich, they are working to produce, grow, or otherwise manafacture a product to be bought by the public, which keeps the Corporation afloat, which keeps the man his Job and gets him paid to support himself or his family, which keeps the product on the shelves. This is where I find your lack of knowledge of Economics.
No, it's conjecture, do you WANT to farm? If you have around $10,000 you can buy a few acres and save some money on food. My other grandmother lived on a farm and her family were quite happy, im a Kansas boy, you cant get me there :P The rich are allowed to be because they have either cushy Government jobs, A High Corporate position, maybe a movie or pop star? The rich are people with money, nothing more or less.
Here we reach our final conclusion, We dont rely on a slave class, its a large middle class, im happily middle class and I've lived a happy life so far, my Step-dad, who works in the Aircraft Industry happily enjoys playing Scrabble, watching movies etc. like any other human. There is no Master Class, they might control the media but I seldom watch the news, enjoying fictional movies and comedy instead. True, maybe the weak minded allow themselves to be taken over by the media, but this happens in every country, for as long as we've had Governments.
And our Forfathers would GLADLY want to change the current state of things, but mostly on the Government scale, the rich just enjoy more amenities due to higher salaries, but they dont control much more than what products we can select and how expensive they are. I apologize for not going in to a more in-depth discussion into your ideas. If I stop WORKING to get money I might die, but when you work about the only thing you obey is "Make this many of that, ship it here at this price." Once again, the poor can seldom do anything, it's likely some desperately try to get a job, but answer me this, would you really hire a man in tattered clothes with barely a high school education, but who desperately needs the money? Or that well dressed middle-class teen who needs the extra dough to buy his favorite bands new CD?
Sorry for the length folks, had to argue my point. Let's keep our paragraph lengths down from now-on.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Of course your gaming time is a very expensive investment,
which you value more than what you're making per hour at your job (lest you'd
be working, not playing).
And about losing items (or anything) in a game. Yes, you do get robbed, but of "virtual" items, whose value, as you put it, is subjective,
meaning it's worth nothing to a thief but it's worth something (real money or
your time) to you or your guild.
About suing someone for stealing your in-game property –
imo, this is too far fetched. Although in the future I’m sure we will see
many a case like this.
Please, I'm not willing to delve deeper into a discussion of economics, as it
is not my specialty. But what I said above should be pretty obvious to anyone,
especially someone who has to earn money for the living and understands their
value.
also if you read the EULA of most mmo's they will state that all items in the game world remain the property of the company. Such is why CoH got in trouble for haveing created patterens that would allow for people to create their favorite Marvel and D.C heroes. The individual didn't get in trouble since the patterns and characters themselves were actually still the property of CoH. Such would be the items you get using premium services. Your not buying a tangible object but rather paying for its use in game. So if some one "steals" it from you there isn't much you can do unless the devs don't like the idea. At wich time the item can be removed from that character and given back to you. I don't ever see some one being sued or going to jail for stealing in a game that allows stealing. Then again McDonald's got sued because some fat bastard couldn't control their food intake, and serving hot cofee.
I personally love the idea of murdering othe rplayers. Sometimes, for a good reason, sometimes, I just see a player's name and want to PK them (for example, SSJCLOUDIROTHXXX, that's a K.O.S. in my book). The open ended aspect of PvP is what draws me to it.
The problems, however, are created by gankers and PKers. Now, I think there's plenty of ways to handle this, just not without aggravating some portion of the population in game.
For example, if there's a particular PKer, just have a GM pop, murder the aforementioned PKer, and throw his body into a high level zone with all of his gear on it. Then, give that player a death penalty, a hellacious corpserun, hindered stats, and the maybe a bullseye on them. That way, all the lowbies that he killed can return him the favor once or twice. Sure, it's grotesque, but it still gives the players the option to be a ganking smacktard, with severe repercussions.
Another idea is to just keep it with WoW's honor system. Make it so characters that don't have a chance to fight you don't take a penalty. However, I think if a high level vs a high level fight goes on, someone should lose something. Whether it's a stat, an item, some money, or something. It would keep it so that more high level players are on their toes, while also sort of encouraging guild warfare too. After all, 2 high level guilds fight each other, they get items from the other guild. It'd be cool.
I do believe a problem right now with open PvP is the involvement of RMT. No one likes being PKed by chinamen farmers/botters, no one likes losing to people who buy all their money/items/levels off eBay. The fact is, PvP seems to draw out the biggest punks of all. At least that's been my experience.
So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that unless game companies either incorporate a strict, yet open PvP system, with some active GM monitoring, I don't think open PvP will ever be as rewarding as it once was.
That's my 2 cents...
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
The wolf vs. sheep comment. Absolutely pathetic. I would corpseguard you for hours if I ever saw you in any game, haha. Seriously, that might be the lamest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Frankly, I have no choice but to second this opinion...
Frankly, I have no choice but to second this opinion...
Rofl. Corpse Guard? If you have to corpse guard someone in a MMORPG that mmorpg must be pretty damn carebear. I say if you manage to kill me you take all my loot and i'll res back in town to regear and come find you eventually and try to gain revenge.
all poor poeple are born having nothing. when they see things like jobs, they immediately assume they are lucky and should be thankful to have them.
from a rich persons stand point, you have billions of individuals who are willing to believe that, and all you have to do to tap that is simply set up a factor. we will predictably work there and be thankful for what we are given, breeding more. our children with then also be dependent on the system the rich build for us, also thankful, believing that the rich serve us in some way.
maybe you are perfectly happy to be "middle" class, to have a mercedes and an ice house...
but there are people in other countries who are paid so little, they can barely survive.
corporations end up inflicting massive damage upon those who, like us, thankful for what they are "given"
industrialization can destroy and ecosystem, and if corporations tap all available resources, they'll pack up and leave, dooming all their workers and their workers families to starvation and abject poverty, far worse than they had before.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Frankly, I have no choice but to second this opinion...
Rofl. Corpse Guard? If you have to corpse guard someone in a MMORPG that mmorpg must be pretty damn carebear. I say if you manage to kill me you take all my loot and i'll res back in town to regear and come find you eventually and try to gain revenge.
booyah!
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
firefighters are courageous, policemen are courageous, soldier are courageous, a guy sitting at his computer snacking away fighting anyone he can find with thier online toon in a computer game is not courageous.
Games are for entertainment and hey, maybe getting ganked and having to start from square one isnt very entertaining to the people who pay MONTHLY for these things.
But i do like the idea of having to respawn back at town and regearing etc i mean, it is just a game (hey, you could round up a possy and go hunt him down, or hire a merc, that would be some fun stuff).
well i guess what it all comes down to is if your not having fun playing a particular game, dont try to change it just to suite yourself and go find another game that you might like.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
BUT! On the other hand pvp is what alot of people like. The game has its own challenges yet people want the rush of the beat down you will recieve if you dont defend yourself. Horde and Alliance are story lined to hate each other and to knock it out when they cross paths. You'll hear different versions on any server which side rules. My server, horde are the top dogs but I dont care cause Im Alliance and dont get into the pvp thing as much as I used to. And by the way, the wolf would be skinned if he crossed my path on a bad day. This sheep has teeth and bites back when he needs to LOL. They say violence is running wild in games these days, I say better on the screen then in the streets. No matter what style of play you prefer, dont push it on others cause not everyone likes the sdame thing. You stick with your server Ill stick with mine and pray the wolf doesnt get an itch for a transfer cause I can track Trolls.
Obviosuly, Slapme7times, my arguments make no impact and you apparently dont see my point, though I laugh when you say I praise Ghandi when he hated everything I loved, sorry my friend but he was a peaceful man with modest goals, he reached it, though some idiot had to go and kill him, and Lord im not getting into that. I loved how he, Martin Luther, and others followed his methods, this is enough on these topics.
I've got little else to say about Cowardice in games, only that is doesnt exist and neither does Honor. Those who say there is are pretty pathetic people. Though it brings me about in that why must people bring these topics aboust when there are so many games for everyone?
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
17 pages, one of the longest debates going on here, very nice. It is time I step in.
To the OP - I agree with you 99% - the only problem I have with your statement is that it almost sounds too extreme.
I agree with you, the first generations of MMO's were mostly barbaric and violent, with little rules and restrictions, becuase of various reasons. The most prominent one is the time factor. At that time MMO's were targeted to the more hardcore gamer who loved exciting PvP with adrenaline rushes and stuff that kept you awake and partying until 2am in the morning. It allowed FFA PvP, deaths with harsh penalties, looting. PvP was exciting and 90% of the time fun. becuase of the low popularity of MMO's, companies did not pour in alot of money and time into them, thus they were not all worried about complaints from players and the sort. Exploiting bugs were something of a common occurance. I remember in AC when macros were used all the time. In some games they probably still are, like autominer in RS.
The later MMO's got gradualley less and less harsher. DAOC, SWG, COH, and who can forget WoW. WoW, being the standard of MMO's, has abosolutely no death penalty with no looting. The "honor system" is completly crap, rewarding only the most hardcore players that played for weeks straight with little to no sleep. The game is geared towards casual gamers, but at the same time, you really cant advance. Looting? No way. Corpse retrevials? Not really. I can fall asleep while playing WoW PvP, and beielive it or not, PvP makes or breaks an interesting and exciting/fun video game. What are you going to do all day, farm? how FUN is farming? Congratulations, youve killed the biggest and baddest boss, go you. Go you for clicking over and over and beating an AI. Really, people, grow a freakin brain. Grow some emotions. Is it that hard?
But the most thing that pisses me off totally is players that generalize people who support FFA PvP. The general response that most of you are reading this are thinking:
"Im sorry but the majority of gamers dont think its fun to get ganked. If you like ganking other people lower than your level and it makes you feel big, there arent any games out there left for you. Sucks to be you, bitch."
In actuality, there are probably more players that support FFA pvp that disagree with you. It is not the ganking that they like. They hate it as much as everyone else. Ganking is something that they dont do, rather, they look for an exciting and fun fight. Still dont understand what Im saying? here, I'll put it in caps and big shiny letters on your computer screen:
Not everyone who likes FFA PvP ganks noobs!!!!!111
I have known tons of people who look for a fair fight and they dont take the jump on someone. The truth is, the people who gank other noobs are in the miniority, and who suck at playing the game, and are simply cowards. I would say a good 40% of FFA pvprs are gankers, and thats it. This is a common misconception thats wrong. You got ganked? Get over it. Wipe your tears away, folks, its a game, nothing more. All the more for you to level up and get them back. The OP is right, its boring to have no death penalty. Want to feel that adrenaline rush? I dont get that while playing WoW. There is NO DEATH IN WOW. I REPEAT, WHEN YOU DIE, YOU DONT REALLY DIE.
There are more people who actually like pvp than you know out there. They are just afraid to speak up becuase of people who put them down all the time. In fact, its almost looked down now in MMO society, with people who support PVE as the "cool" and "nice" people and the people who like pvp the "savages". This isnt true. People who like PvP are the players that REALLY want to play an MMO with full interaction with other players. They want excitement, fun. They want freedom back into MMO's, something that is long gone.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Your buddy said "In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this." Do you really expect us to believe that someome who calls themselves a wolf preying on sheep seeks out equal fights? The fact that you even attempted to argue this, especially after you quoted the wolves comment, invalidates everything else you said.
3rd Generation: Has not dawned upon us yet. Hopefuly companies
will see the light that players need to be challenged with unexpected
dangers (think about it).
I would say this is games like Risk Your Life and Rising Force Online.... Battling against other races... You cant really kill your own race
-Navsterz
Your buddy said "In mmorpgs I am considered the "Wolf" ... I prey on the "Sheep", if "Wolves" get in the way of my sheep then I'll kill those "Wolves", I don't expect non-veterans to understand this." Do you really expect us to believe that someome who calls themselves a wolf preying on sheep seeks out equal fights? The fact that you even attempted to argue this, especially after you quoted the wolves comment, invalidates everything else you said.
He was simply using a figure of speech, naturally you took it the wrong way and assumed he meant weaker players. What he means is people that are passive, that dont even attack. Maybe people that are weaker, yes, but as you quoted me I meant noobs. There will always be players that attack a person that has a disadvantage, and the fight becomes interesting because of something called skill comes in as a factor. Furthermore, as you quoted me I said "not everyone" so this is another fact that proves your post has no validity.
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
But alot of people do, and that is why most people that dont like pvp, is becuase they have been pk'd (yes there is a difference) by some high lvl player trying to get his jollies off, and look cool to his friends. And I'll bet that people who "gank" new players, would be the same way being pissy if they went to a new game and the same happen to them. Wolf or not
Rofl. Corpse Guard? If you have to corpse guard someone in a MMORPG that mmorpg must be pretty damn carebear. I say if you manage to kill me you take all my loot and i'll res back in town to regear and come find you eventually and try to gain revenge.
Haha, you could TRY to kill me. But I'll tell ya, if you wanted to keep funding me with new gear to loot off your corpse everytime, I'd say after the second or 3rd time, I'd be sporting some pretty fancy threads.
Besides, Mr. Wolf, wouldn't you be a little too busy with your sheep? Dick around with the sheep long enough, and a sheperd is gonna come in and kick your ass six ways from Sunday.
Call me Mr. Sheperd ^_^
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Well, if you say so, then it must be true. I am sure the rest of the world has just been experiencing the 98% minority noob gankers, and nor this vast 2% majority good PvPers you talk about.
You know who the real cowards are? The people that do not dare to meet others if similar level in an honest fight, but scream for years for a freeforall PvP system where they get points and loot for killing lvl 1s. If you ever wonder why noone ever give you the respect you think, in your imagination, you deserve... Its because the only cowrds experienced gamers has ever met the last 15 years.. has been FF PvPers... And man they like to whine in forums if they do not get what they want "Bwaaah, I cant kill defenceless people, only people of my level, this sucks! Nerf all other levels!!"
So, go back to the whining... We really really care.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)