Oh man... this is horrible. It all brings me back to the 14 months after I quit EQ and got billed retroactively... What a horrible horrible move this is!
Microsoft is a power hungry corporation. Sony is the devil.
-I didnt play Planetside because of my bad experience with them and no free trials could be found that didnt require me to give them my CC info. -I didnt play SWG even though I'm an absolute SW geek. -And I guess I won't be playing this either.....
DAMN IT... sometimes standing up for yourself and boycotting evil incarnate can really be painful.
I guess this is good news for the good people at Funcom and Age of Conan. I am changing my billing for CoH to yearly... that'll save me the cash ..
Also... FU SOE I'll be dragging all my friends over to Conan + CoH
Indeed, yet it seems that no matter how many times things like this are very clearly explained officially on the forums, some people say, 'Ah! Ah! But that will change!' as if SOE will break their contracts although they have never done so before, or somehow buy Sigil. Even when told otherwise by the Microsoft-employee-turned-Sigil-VP:
Artemesia How long until SOE is able to buy Sigil? Is there a set time specified in the contract? We all know it's going to happen anyway, I just want to know how long I'll actually be able to enjoy Vanguard.
Taranis About the same amount of time before California annexes Nevada.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Originally posted by Saerain Indeed, yet it seems that no matter how many times things like this are very clearly explained officially on the forums, some people say, 'Ah! Ah! But that we change!' As if SOE will break their contracts although they have never done so before, or somehow buy Sigil. Even when told otherwise by the Microsoft-employee-turned-Sigil-VP:
Artemesia How long until SOE is able to buy Sigil? Is there a set time specified in the contract? We all know it's going to happen anyway, I just want to know how long I'll actually be able to enjoy Vanguard.
Taranis: About the same amount of time before California annexes Nevada.
Rubbish.
"Promises" like this don't mean a thing in business if something goes wrong. What is Vanguard isn't a massive hit right away? What if the game is slow to get going, or has a bad start in the same way Anarchy Online had and the money runs out? Saga of Ryzom is a great MMORPG with more sophistication and thought than WoW will ever have and yet they don't have a fraction of the numbers that WoW has, why? Because it's a niche game, just like Vanguard will be. Who's going to pay the bills then? Will the promise that SOE will never buy them out still stand then?
Plus the people who keep spouting that SOE will have very little to do with the game are missing the point that a lot of people are feeling right now. A lot of people are very mad at SOE and DON'T want to give them any money, by buying Vanguard they are given SOE the money they said they didn't want SOE to have.
A large number of people wanted to play Vanguard so they could step away from SOE and EQ2.
You can't bash a person for not wanting to give a company that they felt treated them badly, money. Why can't a lot of you see that?
However, I have said elsewhere that I respect boycotting SOE from a single dime for emotional reasons. I see the unconditional hate. But for others, it is worth understanding the arrangement in full.
Aradune Mithara They can't tell me to do that, that's the point. We have contracts.
And if they broke their contract and word, then yes, we would move elsewhere (not that I see this happening).
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
If Vanguard gets a bad start (as many great and classic MMOs have had in the past) and the money runs out can they still say that SOE wouldn't buy them out and take over the game? Maybe they can, but I still think they have under-estimated just how much a lot of the people waiting for Vanguard HATE SOE.
Now I'm not one of them, I am still going to play Vanguard, but even I had a "WTF!?" moment when I read the news.
I've played Everquest since the beginning and I had the usual problems with SOE that everyone else had, but anyone who boycotts a game because of a publisher is just sad and im glad i wont see you in game.
Originally posted by lilmitch34 ...but anyone who boycotts a game because of a publisher is just sad and im glad i wont see you in game.
People who say things like this are the reason we have companies that ask how they can make a product cheaper to make, instead of how can we make a better product. You're the reason we have SUVs that over turn.
As consumers we have only ONE weapon, we stop giving them our money. I think anyone willing to pass on a game they wanted to play because they made a personal vow not to pay SOE anymore money should have my respect.
Lol. Some of these people are actually buying into the idea that SOE will have nothing to do with the development of the game. I have a watch to sell every one of you. It's a Rolex. Really.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
My greatest concern is that I am going to spend 1000 hours in front of the computer and then getting screwed over in 3 years time after building up a character.
As a paying customer I want to make sure that the time I invest in a product is well spent without fears of what may come...
However, with SoE in the loop I cannot defend that notion. I have wasted enough time in front of the computer feeding SoE from my wallet and to what end? No end really! After building a character in EQ2 and knowing what have happened with both EQ and SWG there is nothing left here if they are getting involved in this product.
If I buy a car with a certain characteristic I want to make sure that this car actually works as the company said it would.
When buying a SoE product nothing is guaranteed. It's like a gamble. I know what Vanguard is now, the problem is what it will be in 3 years time. Now both SoE and Sigil can claim anything at this point, assuring us. It's in their best interest to keep us happy.
But when Im walking down the road I see only one thing and thats the next news that will come "SOE buys the rights to Sigil's Vanguard:SOH"
I know that will happen one day, and that will be the day when SoE and Sigil cannot agree or the day when SoE want more control.
Sorry im not doing this again! Im not going to invest those 1000 hours in a game that Im not certain has a future. If you really take a second and think about the road ahead, maybe you will get that same bitter taste in your mouths.
Think about it for a second and try to taste those 1000 hours invested here...
I'm sure this has been pointed out previously, but I am not going to wade through 12+ pages of whining to find out, so just in case:
This move has absolutely 0 impact on the development of the game or the creative direction of the game - past, present, or future. SOE also Co-published Toontown and is the co-publisher of Gods and Heroes.. do you see any SOE impact in those games?
Fact is, this is probably a great solution for Vanguard. Odds are, this will give the game more immediate visibility when the game is released, and if it is included on with Station Access, which is the word currently, the game will most likely get a greater number of people willing to try it out that are already subscribed to one of SOE's games.
Originally posted by Denmar I'm sure this has been pointed out previously, but I am not going to wade through 12+ pages of whining to find out, so just in case: This move has absolutely 0 impact on the development of the game or the creative direction of the game - past, present, or future. SOE also Co-published Toontown and is the co-publisher of Gods and Heroes.. do you see any SOE impact in those games? Fact is, this is probably a great solution for Vanguard. Odds are, this will give the game more immediate visibility when the game is released, and if it is included on with Station Access, which is the word currently, the game will most likely get a greater number of people willing to try it out that are already subscribed to one of SOE's games.
Yeah, it's been pointed out. But nobody listens. They're too bitter to let facts get in the way.
I am hoping it's included in the Station Access. I would be more prone to buy it then. I play EQ2 and EQ on the Access pass, so adding another game would be awesome.
Originally posted by Denmar I'm sure this has been pointed out previously, but I am not going to wade through 12+ pages of whining to find out, so just in case: This move has absolutely 0 impact on the development of the game or the creative direction of the game - past, present, or future. SOE also Co-published Toontown and is the co-publisher of Gods and Heroes.. do you see any SOE impact in those games? Fact is, this is probably a great solution for Vanguard. Odds are, this will give the game more immediate visibility when the game is released, and if it is included on with Station Access, which is the word currently, the game will most likely get a greater number of people willing to try it out that are already subscribed to one of SOE's games.
And it's also been pointed out about 10 times that only a fool believes what's said in a press release is the truth and will always be the truth.
Sofar SoE has absorbed, and trying its hardest to ruin:
the original Everquest
SWG
Matrix Online
EQ2(part of acquiring Everquest)
And Vanguard is next
And all of those started out with sony having no creative control....till they bought out the people that did have control.
But go ahead, keep believing the press releases...i mean common, why would they lie to you when only 20+ million in development costs and hundreds of millions in potential revenues are at stake?
Originally posted by reavo I am hoping it's included in the Station Access. I would be more prone to buy it then. I play EQ2 and EQ on the Access pass, so adding another game would be awesome.
Both of the press releases suggest that is going to be the case. I'm sorta glad cause it just gives my all access pass more value. Right now I have no intentions of playing VG but who knows what the future holds.
Originally posted by Gonodil And it's also been pointed out about 10 times that only a fool believes what's said in a press release is the truth and will always be the truth. But go ahead, keep believing the press releases...i mean common, why would they lie to you when only 20+ million in development costs and hundreds of millions in potential revenues are at stake?
And only a paranoid fool would disbelieve everything ever written. Even Brad has said several times they hold control of the direction of the game. If you don't believe him why did you even bother getting interested in VG.
Pull out the tin foil hat and watch your back dude.
Originally posted by Gonodil And it's also been pointed out about 10 times that only a fool believes what's said in a press release is the truth and will always be the truth. Sofar SoE has absorbed, and trying its hardest to ruin: the original Everquest SWG Matrix Online EQ2(part of acquiring Everquest) And Vanguard is next
And all of those started out with sony having no creative control....till they bought out the people that did have control.
But go ahead, keep believing the press releases...i mean common, why would they lie to you when only 20+ million in development costs and hundreds of millions in potential revenues are at stake?
And it's also been pointed out about 10 times that only a fool believes what's said in a press release is the truth and will always be the truth.
Sofar SoE has absorbed, and trying its hardest to ruin:
the original Everquest
SWG
Matrix Online
EQ2(part of acquiring Everquest)
And Vanguard is next
And all of those started out with sony having no creative control....till they bought out the people that did have control.
But go ahead, keep believing the press releases...i mean common, why would they lie to you when only 20+ million in development costs and hundreds of millions in potential revenues are at stake?
This isn't about believing press releases, this is about facts. The fact is that, at this time, SOE co-publishing Vanguard has 0 impact on the game. Also, your list of games that "SOE absorbed and tried to ruin" doesn't make much sense. SWG and EQ2 were their own projects from the start, unless my memory is failing me. Also, again.. co-publishing a game is not the same as buying out a company. Could SOE buyout Sigil at some point? Yes, but this co-publishing move has nothing to do with it. Lastly, I mentioned 2 other games being co-published by SOE in a similar agreement to Sigil's.. if Vanguard's demise is so absolute at this point, why aren't those other games suffering the same fate?
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by Gonodil And it's also been pointed out about 10 times that only a fool believes what's said in a press release is the truth and will always be the truth. But go ahead, keep believing the press releases...i mean common, why would they lie to you when only 20+ million in development costs and hundreds of millions in potential revenues are at stake?
And only a paranoid fool would disbelieve everything ever written. Even Brad has said several times they hold control of the direction of the game. If you don't believe him why did you even bother getting interested in VG.
Pull out the tin foil hat and watch your back dude.
Funny thing, I read 100's of times how microsoft also had zero say in the dev of vsoh and that they were willing to give sigil all the time they needed to get the game done right. However now it appears they are seperating from microsoft for the very things they told us microsoft couldnt and wouldnt do.
Knowing how much people hate soe, and considering how much sigil has riding on this game dont you think they would tell us whatever we wanted to hear in order to buy the game ? After all they already did once with microsoft.
Originally posted by WoodenDummy Originally posted by Saerain
Artemesia
How long until SOE is able to buy Sigil? Is there a set time specified in the contract? We all know it's going to happen anyway, I just want to know how long I'll actually be able to enjoy Vanguard.
Taranis: About the same amount of time before California annexes Nevada.
Rubbish.
"Promises" like this don't mean a thing in business if something goes wrong. What is Vanguard isn't a massive hit right away? What if the game is slow to get going, or has a bad start in the same way Anarchy Online had and the money runs out? Saga of Ryzom is a great MMORPG with more sophistication and thought than WoW will ever have and yet they don't have a fraction of the numbers that WoW has, why? Because it's a niche game, just like Vanguard will be. Who's going to pay the bills then? Will the promise that SOE will never buy them out still stand then?
Plus the people who keep spouting that SOE will have very little to do with the game are missing the point that a lot of people are feeling right now. A lot of people are very mad at SOE and DON'T want to give them any money, by buying Vanguard they are given SOE the money they said they didn't want SOE to have.
A large number of people wanted to play Vanguard so they could step away from SOE and EQ2.
You can't bash a person for not wanting to give a company that they felt treated them badly, money. Why can't a lot of you see that?
Vanguard, niche game.....right . Yeah it will be a niche game just like Everquest was right? LOL. Everquest put mmorpgs on the map. No let me rephrase that. Brad's game put mmorpgs on the map. Will it be quite as popular as WoW, probably not because WoW is a dumbed down, easy to play mmorpg. Perfect for beginner mmorpg players or young children. Vanguard will be for those who want more challenge. And there are alot of players who are looking for a game that has what Vanguard offers.
Like I said before and I think that we can all probably agree on this. Brad has never lied to us and feels very strongly about keeping the vision of what his game will be true. That being said, if you say that all the Vanguard FAQs on this subject are B.S. and that everything Brad has said to us does not matter, then you are in effect calling the man a liar. And that is not fair because he has done nothing to deserve being branded as such.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but quite frankly for those of you who are still spouting out negativity towards Vanguard even after reading the facts. I hate to say it but I am glad that you will not be part of the community. I do not need the negativity, the Vanguard community does not need it, the Sigil employees do not need it and Vanguard does not need it. Hopefully you will all find something else to play that you enjoy because all this hate is like a poison to the gaming community and really needs to stop.
Vanguard, niche game.....right . Yeah it will be a niche game just like Everquest was right? LOL.
Did you even Vanguards FAQ before you posted? The FAQ states that they believe the more accessible games are the games that have the million plus subscribers and their aim with Vanguard is not to be so compromising and to take the risk as a more niche game so they can make the game they want to make.
As for the rest of your post, I can't be bothered to post the same stuff over and over again in detail. Put simply, people are angry that SOE are having anything to do with the game for two reasons.
One, because anyone who knows anything about business knows that things change, what is said here and now could be a very different story in 6 months time. There are many different ways SOE could end up with more control over Vanguard.
Two, because people have been burnt by SOE before and felt so badly treated by them that they don't want to give Sony any more of their money. By buying the game you will be putting money into SOEs pockets.
I WILL be buying Vanguard, but I respect anyone who chooses not to if they felt SOE treated them badly and are making the only stand they can, by not putting money in SOEs pockets.
Comments
Join now! Repent sinners!
http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/press_releases/2006_03_15_Austin/
All MMORPG produced by non-RPG companies are scam! Behold the power of true devs!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Eh...sorry. Won't be giving SOE any of my money.
Oh man... this is horrible.
It all brings me back to the 14 months after I quit EQ and got billed retroactively...
What a horrible horrible move this is!
Microsoft is a power hungry corporation.
Sony is the devil.
-I didnt play Planetside because of my bad experience with them and no free trials could be found that didnt require me to give them my CC info.
-I didnt play SWG even though I'm an absolute SW geek.
-And I guess I won't be playing this either.....
DAMN IT... sometimes standing up for yourself and boycotting evil incarnate can really be painful.
I guess this is good news for the good people at Funcom and Age of Conan.
I am changing my billing for CoH to yearly... that'll save me the cash ..
Also...
FU SOE I'll be dragging all my friends over to Conan + CoH
Here's a quote.
Will SOE influence Vanguard’s gameplay?
Indeed, yet it seems that no matter how many times things like this are very clearly explained officially on the forums, some people say, 'Ah! Ah! But that will change!' as if SOE will break their contracts although they have never done so before, or somehow buy Sigil. Even when told otherwise by the Microsoft-employee-turned-Sigil-VP:
Artemesia
How long until SOE is able to buy Sigil? Is there a set time specified in the contract? We all know it's going to happen anyway, I just want to know how long I'll actually be able to enjoy Vanguard.
Taranis
About the same amount of time before California annexes Nevada.
"Promises" like this don't mean a thing in business if something goes wrong. What is Vanguard isn't a massive hit right away? What if the game is slow to get going, or has a bad start in the same way Anarchy Online had and the money runs out? Saga of Ryzom is a great MMORPG with more sophistication and thought than WoW will ever have and yet they don't have a fraction of the numbers that WoW has, why? Because it's a niche game, just like Vanguard will be. Who's going to pay the bills then? Will the promise that SOE will never buy them out still stand then?
Plus the people who keep spouting that SOE will have very little to do with the game are missing the point that a lot of people are feeling right now. A lot of people are very mad at SOE and DON'T want to give them any money, by buying Vanguard they are given SOE the money they said they didn't want SOE to have.
A large number of people wanted to play Vanguard so they could step away from SOE and EQ2.
You can't bash a person for not wanting to give a company that they felt treated them badly, money. Why can't a lot of you see that?
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1043667&postcount=1403
However, I have said elsewhere that I respect boycotting SOE from a single dime for emotional reasons. I see the unconditional hate. But for others, it is worth understanding the arrangement in full.
Aradune Mithara
They can't tell me to do that, that's the point. We have contracts.
And if they broke their contract and word, then yes, we would move elsewhere (not that I see this happening).
Now I'm not one of them, I am still going to play Vanguard, but even I had a "WTF!?" moment when I read the news.
As consumers we have only ONE weapon, we stop giving them our money. I think anyone willing to pass on a game they wanted to play because they made a personal vow not to pay SOE anymore money should have my respect.
Personally, I understand boycotting products better than I understand boycotting companies. The Ford Explorer rather than Ford, if you will.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Well, I am not going to play Vanguard if SOE is invloved and I know many who will do the same.
aF/SeRa
As a paying customer I want to make sure that the time I invest in a product is well spent without fears of what may come...
However, with SoE in the loop I cannot defend that notion. I have wasted enough time in front of the computer feeding SoE from my wallet and to what end? No end really! After building a character in EQ2 and knowing what have happened with both EQ and SWG there is nothing left here if they are getting involved in this product.
If I buy a car with a certain characteristic I want to make sure that this car actually works as the company said it would.
When buying a SoE product nothing is guaranteed. It's like a gamble. I know what Vanguard is now, the problem is what it will be in 3 years time. Now both SoE and Sigil can claim anything at this point, assuring us. It's in their best interest to keep us happy.
But when Im walking down the road I see only one thing and thats the next news that will come "SOE buys the rights to Sigil's Vanguard:SOH"
I know that will happen one day, and that will be the day when SoE and Sigil cannot agree or the day when SoE want more control.
Sorry im not doing this again! Im not going to invest those 1000 hours in a game that Im not certain has a future. If you really take a second and think about the road ahead, maybe you will get that same bitter taste in your mouths.
Think about it for a second and try to taste those 1000 hours invested here...
I'm sure this has been pointed out previously, but I am not going to wade through 12+ pages of whining to find out, so just in case:
This move has absolutely 0 impact on the development of the game or the creative direction of the game - past, present, or future. SOE also Co-published Toontown and is the co-publisher of Gods and Heroes.. do you see any SOE impact in those games?
Fact is, this is probably a great solution for Vanguard. Odds are, this will give the game more immediate visibility when the game is released, and if it is included on with Station Access, which is the word currently, the game will most likely get a greater number of people willing to try it out that are already subscribed to one of SOE's games.
I am hoping it's included in the Station Access. I would be more prone to buy it then. I play EQ2 and EQ on the Access pass, so adding another game would be awesome.
And it's also been pointed out about 10 times that only a fool believes what's said in a press release is the truth and will always be the truth.
Sofar SoE has absorbed, and trying its hardest to ruin:
the original Everquest
SWG
Matrix Online
EQ2(part of acquiring Everquest)
And Vanguard is next
And all of those started out with sony having no creative control....till they bought out the people that did have control.
But go ahead, keep believing the press releases...i mean common, why would they lie to you when only 20+ million in development costs and hundreds of millions in potential revenues are at stake?
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Pull out the tin foil hat and watch your back dude.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Pull out the tin foil hat and watch your back dude.
Funny thing, I read 100's of times how microsoft also had zero say in the dev of vsoh and that they were willing to give sigil all the time they needed to get the game done right. However now it appears they are seperating from microsoft for the very things they told us microsoft couldnt and wouldnt do.
Knowing how much people hate soe, and considering how much sigil has riding on this game dont you think they would tell us whatever we wanted to hear in order to buy the game ? After all they already did once with microsoft.
Vanguard, niche game.....right
. Yeah it will be a niche game just like Everquest was right? LOL. Everquest put mmorpgs on the map. No let me rephrase that. Brad's game put mmorpgs on the map. Will it be quite as popular as WoW, probably not because WoW is a dumbed down, easy to play mmorpg. Perfect for beginner mmorpg players or young children. Vanguard will be for those who want more challenge. And there are alot of players who are looking for a game that has what Vanguard offers.
Like I said before and I think that we can all probably agree on this. Brad has never lied to us and feels very strongly about keeping the vision of what his game will be true. That being said, if you say that all the Vanguard FAQs on this subject are B.S. and that everything Brad has said to us does not matter, then you are in effect calling the man a liar. And that is not fair because he has done nothing to deserve being branded as such.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but quite frankly for those of you who are still spouting out negativity towards Vanguard even after reading the facts. I hate to say it but I am glad that you will not be part of the community. I do not need the negativity, the Vanguard community does not need it, the Sigil employees do not need it and Vanguard does not need it. Hopefully you will all find something else to play that you enjoy because all this hate is like a poison to the gaming community and really needs to stop.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Did you even Vanguards FAQ before you posted? The FAQ states that they believe the more accessible games are the games that have the million plus subscribers and their aim with Vanguard is not to be so compromising and to take the risk as a more niche game so they can make the game they want to make.
As for the rest of your post, I can't be bothered to post the same stuff over and over again in detail. Put simply, people are angry that SOE are having anything to do with the game for two reasons.
One, because anyone who knows anything about business knows that things change, what is said here and now could be a very different story in 6 months time. There are many different ways SOE could end up with more control over Vanguard.
Two, because people have been burnt by SOE before and felt so badly treated by them that they don't want to give Sony any more of their money. By buying the game you will be putting money into SOEs pockets.
I WILL be buying Vanguard, but I respect anyone who chooses not to if they felt SOE treated them badly and are making the only stand they can, by not putting money in SOEs pockets.