Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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FFA PVP games are the best! Guild Wars was pretty epic too. When 2012 came around companies seemed much less likely to invest time for that kind of crowd. I had most fun during wow era but never played wow before, was just too cartoony for me and not FFA anyways.
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Personally I have fond memories of the early games I played - that go back before UO - through the middle period (call out to CoH) - and on to today.
And today there is more choice. More games played by more people. Including games I am unlikely to play - ever. Doesn't mean they are not "good" though in the eyes of some people.
I'll put it this way. Games are better today. Communities are far far worse. Back then, MMOs rewarded players for teaming up and socializing. <snip>
People played older games solo - EQ1 and the like. The rewards for grouping are still there in many games.
Joining / creating a decent guild / community however takes effort. It did then it does today.
With "less choice" "fewer players" and (probably) "smaller servers" maybe - and I have no evidence for this - a "higher %" of people "stuck around" a little longer. And maybe that made it a little easier for communities to develop.
Obviously this is a tricky issue, because having chosen pre-wow era, what i really mean is that i prefer that era NOW; back then i had the most fun in the height of the WoW era (vanilla + bc).
I'll put it this way. Games are better today. Communities are far far worse. Back then, MMOs rewarded players for teaming up and socializing. Now days, MMOs reward you for playing alone and never interacting with anyone until you're desperate for an item that can be traded or you need to do a raid or something.
I think that is what many of us who are older than 25 miss the most about older MMOs. It's why we honestly can't back to those old outdated things, but still remember them as being better.
The Pre-WoW *Era* was far better. Post is terrible. Everything is all about PvP and soloing. It wouldn't be problem if there were at least a few MMOs that required players to team up virtually all the time. Instead we just have a ton of games that are carbon copies and have the attitude of "you can pop in and out as if you were playing a single player game".
That's what MMOs are now days. Single Player MMOs. The mechanics are better, the combat is better, the visuals are better, the philosophy and communities are garbage.
I largely agree, however i would point out that combat is "different," not "better."
One difference, which you noted, is community; combat required others. But the combat changed in one other significant way, speed. The advent of action combat hasn't been reversed, today's mmos are mmoarpgs, not mmorpgs.
The pre-WoW era was my favorite, because my favorite MMOs, Star Wars Galaxies and City of Heroes, released during that timeframe. I did enjoy plenty of games released during the WoW era, particularly Warhammer Online, The Matrix Online, and even Age of Conan (as messy as it was), but ultimately I had my best experiences with games early in the genre's history.
I was thinking WoW era for CoH, because they released the same year didn't they?
pre-wow for lineage 2 and CoH and post-wow for BDO. voted pre-wow mostly because of lineage 2 nostalgia. your first large scale pvp, the endless guild drama, your first world boss kill after fighting for your spot with other guilds/alliances, becoming hero for your class for the first time, etc all of these are just things that you will never experience for the first time ever again and that's probably the reason most veterans are so jaded with recent mmo's. it's just the same thing with a different skin and a twist, the sense of discovery and pioneering is gone and it fucking sucks
For me it is pretty damming that more than half of us believe that the best MMORPGS were built before 2004.
Despite people on these forums telling us to get over it, that games have evolved, that calling for old school games is just nostalgia. We persist in believing they were better. Maybe all that innovation and quality of life improvement was crap just as some of us have been saying all along.
I think the games are better today than they have ever been - better graphics, better mechanics, better variety, you name it.
I think the stereotypical players today are ... not the same as the stereotypical players back in earlier eras. And I also think that a lot of the game improvements came at the expensive of community-building inside a gaming ecosystem.
Unfortunately, with MMOs, you are kinda combining the gameplay with the community. You can have a great game, but if it has a crappy community, it won't be all that it could be. Community is half (more or less) of the reason to play an MMO.
I've played MMOs where I couldn't really stand the game, but hung in there because of all my friends. And I've played MMOs where the game is awesome, but it's a totally solo adventure. In both cases, I have fun for a little while, then move on.
But something magical happens when you get the two combined together, and those times that does happen, those are the times where I spend hundreds/thousands of hours engrossed in an MMO over a long period of time.
For me, that has happened in various games in all three "eras", so it's not that games have been on a steady decline, or that better graphics = better game. I think it just takes the developer finding that right mix of Quality of Life versus that just-right-amount of hardship that pulls people together and forms the community - and realizing when they have it and not mucking it up too badly.
The best MMO era was the transition from pre-wow to post wow. In years this was from 2003 to 2007. This is when Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, Everquest II, WoW, Final Fantasy XI were all at their best. All these games offered different things to different people. There were also good niche games such as City of Heroes, EVE online, and Grando Espada. There was a lot of variety back then. Then everything changed and development studios started copying WoW. This is what ruined MMORPGs. All MMORPGs just became WoW clones with cash shops after that.
If ice cream was like MMORPGs there would only be one flavor of ice cream. In the beginning there would have been a lot of different flavors but then when the ice cream makers saw that vanilla was the most popular they would discontinue all the other flavors.
My first ever played MMO is Ran online which was released on 2004 followed by Cabal and flyff on 2005 then Tales of Pirates on 2007 and so on and so forth. I guess this era is the best
Early 1999-2005 was pretty much the time MMO's ended for me for being Good, World OF Warcraft the Original WOW was something I liked, IMO all these expansions killed the game off made me quit, The Talent Changes all the time is something I did not like and could not keep playing because of it and yes I played wow Since the Original Game, IMO World OF Warcraft is like a Dead Horse and I keep kicking it no matter how many times I have tried to go back to the game old outdated graphics, and character models besides the constant grind fest for PVP Gear, and the Original WOW no longer feels like its there.
Now to me my Next Big Game I thought since 2013, was going to be Albion Online, but these developers have made all the wrong decisions in the game done really lame things including locking people out of portals for 2 hours, Removed all but 2 houses, removed Resource Conversions, and even banned my 2013 account saying I purchased gold but can only show me trading and a person saying they were there to deliver me my goods for a First offense in 4+ years.
Because of this I have to say (Dark Fall Rise OF Agon) is my next biggest game besides Albion, its 100x better, although the graphics are dated the game itself is more fun PVP wise, feels more fun when it comes to combat, guilds, and siege, as well as upcoming games like (Ashes OF Creation) & (Crow Fall) seem to be going to be 100x better.
In General Speaking around 1999-2005, MMO's are a lot better outdated absolutely but the games themselves were great like Planet Side vs Planet Side 2, I like the Original Better, and the only great thing I can say that has came out of MMO games since the last 17 years is MOBA, League OF Legends, DOTA, Smite, Overwatch, HOTS. Everything else I have seen or personally backed on kick starter has been a disappointment and failure in my eyes. The games I currently would recommend checking out.
- Dark Fall Rise OF Agon / New Dawn - Crow Fall - Ashes OF Creation - Elder Scrolls Online
Everything else in my eyes besides (EVE) which IMO has its own category besides a MMO so to speak has been a failure, FFXI was good for example, FFXIV is garbage.
The best era, to me, was up 'til around 2004, yes, around the time WoW came out.
Why? Because before then, we saw developers each trying to put their own unique fingerprint on what a MMORPG could be, how it could play, what features it could have, etc. Developers strove to stand apart from others, not emulate them. EQ1 was nothing like Anarchy Online was nothing like DAoC was nothing like Shadowbane was nothing like Ultima Online was nothing like Lineage 1 or 2 was nothing like FFXI was nothing like Asheron's Call... and so on. Each game was its own unique experience.
Even those that were clearly inspired by EQ1, such as FFXI, differentiated themselves enough from it to become their own unique experience. Moving from one to another required you to learn new control and game systems. It didn't feel like picking up the same game with different graphics and only marginally different mechanics and systems.
This was back when most larger companies wouldn't touch MMOs with a 10 foot pole, possibly because they didn't "get" them. They didn't see the "big money earning potential", so it wasn't worth their time or attention.
It's only once WoW came along, and blew the doors open on the genre with its success, that suddenly everyone started coming out of the woodwork trying to get a piece of that pie, and yes... near every one of them was trying to emulate WoW. Developers like SOE immediately pounced on the "opportunity", by drastically changing up existing games (notably SWG and, to a somewhat lesser degree, EQ2) to be more WoW-like. Thus began the homogenization, streamlining and, yes, "dumbing down" of the genre we've seen happening over the 13 years or so since.
Things really took a steep dive once the idea of F2P and Cash Shops took hold here in the West. It was a thing in the East for years before it was introduced here. Once Developers and Publishers realized they could eliminate the 'ceiling' a $15 monthly sub would bring in by replacing or augmenting it with a cash shop, allowing for unlimited spending, then designing their games around it, it was all over.
The late 90s and early 2000s were absolutely the best time for the genre. It's when the most original ideas came out, the most risk-taking took place, and the only people playing a MMORPG were the people who actually *wanted* to play a MMORPG by definition, and had the patience and imagination to enjoy themselves without requiring a reward every 10 minutes to feel like they were "being productive". This is in contrast to people these days who just want a single player online game with a chat box and fleeting content, where the only thing "worth doing" is racing to the level cap so they can endlessly chase the newest shiny gear.
Modern so-called MMOs aren't just a shadow of what they used to be. They're a shadow of a shadow. Most don't even qualify for the "RPG" label anymore.
And for those who want to dismiss my opinion by saying "They weren't that good, you're just being nostalgic and wearing rose-colored glasses", don't bother. "Nostalgia" and "Rose Colored Glasses" isn't what kept me playing FFXI for 8 years, Lineage 2 for 5 years, and Anarchy Online for about 3 years, to name a few. And no, it has nothing to do with "fewer options". For one, there were more options than I think people realize nowadays, certainly considering the size of the genre back then. Further, there was no requirement to "play the one that sucked the least"; if I didn't like any of the options back then, I simply wouldn't have played any of them. Simple.
For me it is pretty damming that more than half of us believe that the best MMORPGS were built before 2004.
Despite people on these forums telling us to get over it, that games have evolved, that calling for old school games is just nostalgia. We persist in believing they were better. Maybe all that innovation and quality of life improvement was crap just as some of us have been saying all along.
Being better than the current generation of MMOs is like being at the top of your remedial math class.
Older MMOs were better in a lot of ways. But they were still prototypes. They weren't the best because they were the pinnacles of what MMOs can be.
They were the best because developers have been taking a massive diarrhea dump all over the genre for ten years now.
Well, IMHO, older MMOs (not that I'm THAT old to remember them) have a certain quality to them that newer MMOs are lacking. It may be related to dragons.
Comments
Friends and I went back to DAOC shard set to a 2002 rule set, we are having a terrific time.
I'm more than a month in and my character is only level 42 despite playing far more than I should.
Likely to be 2 more months to level 50, then the realm rank grind begins.
Glorious. ;p
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"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Also voted pre-WoW mostly because of L2 and EVE, best MMOs I have played ever.
Personally I have fond memories of the early games I played - that go back before UO - through the middle period (call out to CoH) - and on to today.
And today there is more choice. More games played by more people. Including games I am unlikely to play - ever. Doesn't mean they are not "good" though in the eyes of some people.
People played older games solo - EQ1 and the like. The rewards for grouping are still there in many games.
Joining / creating a decent guild / community however takes effort. It did then it does today.
With "less choice" "fewer players" and (probably) "smaller servers" maybe - and I have no evidence for this - a "higher %" of people "stuck around" a little longer. And maybe that made it a little easier for communities to develop.
Still takes effort though. Whatever the game.
My tastes today land me squarely on early EQ.
I largely agree, however i would point out that combat is "different," not "better."
One difference, which you noted, is community; combat required others. But the combat changed in one other significant way, speed. The advent of action combat hasn't been reversed, today's mmos are mmoarpgs, not mmorpgs.
I was thinking WoW era for CoH, because they released the same year didn't they?
voted pre-wow mostly because of lineage 2 nostalgia. your first large scale pvp, the endless guild drama, your first world boss kill after fighting for your spot with other guilds/alliances, becoming hero for your class for the first time, etc all of these are just things that you will never experience for the first time ever again and that's probably the reason most veterans are so jaded with recent mmo's. it's just the same thing with a different skin and a twist, the sense of discovery and pioneering is gone and it fucking sucks
Despite people on these forums telling us to get over it, that games have evolved, that calling for old school games is just nostalgia. We persist in believing they were better. Maybe all that innovation and quality of life improvement was crap just as some of us have been saying all along.
I think the stereotypical players today are ... not the same as the stereotypical players back in earlier eras. And I also think that a lot of the game improvements came at the expensive of community-building inside a gaming ecosystem.
Unfortunately, with MMOs, you are kinda combining the gameplay with the community. You can have a great game, but if it has a crappy community, it won't be all that it could be. Community is half (more or less) of the reason to play an MMO.
I've played MMOs where I couldn't really stand the game, but hung in there because of all my friends. And I've played MMOs where the game is awesome, but it's a totally solo adventure. In both cases, I have fun for a little while, then move on.
But something magical happens when you get the two combined together, and those times that does happen, those are the times where I spend hundreds/thousands of hours engrossed in an MMO over a long period of time.
For me, that has happened in various games in all three "eras", so it's not that games have been on a steady decline, or that better graphics = better game. I think it just takes the developer finding that right mix of Quality of Life versus that just-right-amount of hardship that pulls people together and forms the community - and realizing when they have it and not mucking it up too badly.
If ice cream was like MMORPGs there would only be one flavor of ice cream. In the beginning there would have been a lot of different flavors but then when the ice cream makers saw that vanilla was the most popular they would discontinue all the other flavors.
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Now to me my Next Big Game I thought since 2013, was going to be Albion Online, but these developers have made all the wrong decisions in the game done really lame things including locking people out of portals for 2 hours, Removed all but 2 houses, removed Resource Conversions, and even banned my 2013 account saying I purchased gold but can only show me trading and a person saying they were there to deliver me my goods for a First offense in 4+ years.
Because of this I have to say (Dark Fall Rise OF Agon) is my next biggest game besides Albion, its 100x better, although the graphics are dated the game itself is more fun PVP wise, feels more fun when it comes to combat, guilds, and siege, as well as upcoming games like (Ashes OF Creation) & (Crow Fall) seem to be going to be 100x better.
In General Speaking around 1999-2005, MMO's are a lot better outdated absolutely but the games themselves were great like Planet Side vs Planet Side 2, I like the Original Better, and the only great thing I can say that has came out of MMO games since the last 17 years is MOBA, League OF Legends, DOTA, Smite, Overwatch, HOTS. Everything else I have seen or personally backed on kick starter has been a disappointment and failure in my eyes.
The games I currently would recommend checking out.
- Dark Fall Rise OF Agon / New Dawn
- Crow Fall
- Ashes OF Creation
- Elder Scrolls Online
Everything else in my eyes besides (EVE) which IMO has its own category besides a MMO so to speak has been a failure, FFXI was good for example, FFXIV is garbage.
Why? Because before then, we saw developers each trying to put their own unique fingerprint on what a MMORPG could be, how it could play, what features it could have, etc. Developers strove to stand apart from others, not emulate them. EQ1 was nothing like Anarchy Online was nothing like DAoC was nothing like Shadowbane was nothing like Ultima Online was nothing like Lineage 1 or 2 was nothing like FFXI was nothing like Asheron's Call... and so on. Each game was its own unique experience.
Even those that were clearly inspired by EQ1, such as FFXI, differentiated themselves enough from it to become their own unique experience. Moving from one to another required you to learn new control and game systems. It didn't feel like picking up the same game with different graphics and only marginally different mechanics and systems.
This was back when most larger companies wouldn't touch MMOs with a 10 foot pole, possibly because they didn't "get" them. They didn't see the "big money earning potential", so it wasn't worth their time or attention.
It's only once WoW came along, and blew the doors open on the genre with its success, that suddenly everyone started coming out of the woodwork trying to get a piece of that pie, and yes... near every one of them was trying to emulate WoW. Developers like SOE immediately pounced on the "opportunity", by drastically changing up existing games (notably SWG and, to a somewhat lesser degree, EQ2) to be more WoW-like. Thus began the homogenization, streamlining and, yes, "dumbing down" of the genre we've seen happening over the 13 years or so since.
Things really took a steep dive once the idea of F2P and Cash Shops took hold here in the West. It was a thing in the East for years before it was introduced here. Once Developers and Publishers realized they could eliminate the 'ceiling' a $15 monthly sub would bring in by replacing or augmenting it with a cash shop, allowing for unlimited spending, then designing their games around it, it was all over.
The late 90s and early 2000s were absolutely the best time for the genre. It's when the most original ideas came out, the most risk-taking took place, and the only people playing a MMORPG were the people who actually *wanted* to play a MMORPG by definition, and had the patience and imagination to enjoy themselves without requiring a reward every 10 minutes to feel like they were "being productive". This is in contrast to people these days who just want a single player online game with a chat box and fleeting content, where the only thing "worth doing" is racing to the level cap so they can endlessly chase the newest shiny gear.
Modern so-called MMOs aren't just a shadow of what they used to be. They're a shadow of a shadow. Most don't even qualify for the "RPG" label anymore.
And for those who want to dismiss my opinion by saying "They weren't that good, you're just being nostalgic and wearing rose-colored glasses", don't bother. "Nostalgia" and "Rose Colored Glasses" isn't what kept me playing FFXI for 8 years, Lineage 2 for 5 years, and Anarchy Online for about 3 years, to name a few. And no, it has nothing to do with "fewer options". For one, there were more options than I think people realize nowadays, certainly considering the size of the genre back then. Further, there was no requirement to "play the one that sucked the least"; if I didn't like any of the options back then, I simply wouldn't have played any of them. Simple.
Older MMOs were better in a lot of ways. But they were still prototypes. They weren't the best because they were the pinnacles of what MMOs can be.
They were the best because developers have been taking a massive diarrhea dump all over the genre for ten years now.