This comment is likely to draw me some hatred, but...
I think it's fair to say SOE is not "appreciated" by a much, MUCH larger percentage of the MMO playerbase, as opposed to having support.
Now, I know people will flame me and jump all over me for this, but WoW has more subscribers then ALL of SOE's games put together. That can be due partly to the fact that WoW is a great game. Or maybe it's because Blizzard has a positive track record in the history of their games. Starcraft was a great game (even though battlenet can rot in hell...forever), Diablo 2 generated more die-hard fans than any other game in my honest opinion, and Warcraft has been a strong series for nearly a decade. Again, I'm just stating my personal opinion here, but I think WoW has it's success half because it's a solid game, and half because of the name "Blizzard". When's the last time SOE ever, EVER mustered that sort of fan support?
I look at SOE's track record...and well, I feel sad and cold. Star Wars Galaxies, Planetside, Everquest 2, The Matrix Online (which, imo, sucked before SOE got it anyway). I think all of these titles had chances to succeed, especially Planetside (which I had the highest hopes for, and still enjoy...for free) However, these games fell short, in my opinion, because of god-awful techies, horrible customer support, a poor lack of patches/updates which enhanced the gaming experience, and several other factors.
For those of you who can not understand why people don't like SOE, you're damned fools. Open your eyes, even just for a second, and realize why they're vilified. It's NOT that hard to see, just take a second and do some of your research. Shady business policies, lying to their customers, horrible service and support, poor marketing decisions, god-awful techies, and that's just a few to name. I personally don't think any sort of funding or advertising is worth that sort of sacrifice.
The comment about SOE being the pervy old man, and Sigil being the naive girl, it's a great example. It'll start off fine...but give SOE time, and they'll be molesting the girl and the game in the blink of an eye. Just you wait.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Oh, and I'm not saying that you should automatically hate SOE, even if I do personally. I am saying that you should at least try to understand why people do hate them, and realize that it's not just because they can. There ARE reasons why they've got a bad rep; it wasn't just pulled out of thin air.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Cymdai Shady business policies, lying to their customers, horrible service and support, poor marketing decisions, god-awful techies
These are generalities, not actual examples of SOE doing any of these things. What is one of their shady business practices? What was the lie or lies you are referring to? What was the nature of your customer service issue (and here I'm especially skeptical because I tend to see haters/flamers as irrational people and I rarely blame the company for having to deal with them)?
Anytime I ever had problems with SOE it usually ended up being my fault, my system or my ISP, I don't think I ever found SOE to blame.
Blizzard is a juggernaut as well. Amazing success, great game, strong loyal base. But where did you get your info that their subscription rates outrank the total SOE subscribers? Are you basing that on the number of servers? Do you know how many people each server of each game hosts? Can you link this info? Cuz as far as I know, none of the companies publish exact numbers of subscribers so all we can do is speculate.
I assume SOE is great for the same reasons I think Blizzard is. They are still making games, adding games and supporting games, it isn't rational to think that they are hurting. Shadowbane was an example of a struggling mmo, not the SOE games. And in a diversifying mmo market where populations are thinning, SOE may be able to save and support more games due to the station pass pooling resources. Oh, maybe that's what Brad was thinking about....the future of his game.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by Glock21 It tells me alot about a company, when, everyone bails out of support for a game even when the association is minimal. It's clear SOE needs to keep their hands off MMO's. Furthermore, if a game company doesn't realize the mistake by associating themselves with SOE, they are truly out of touch with the mmo fan base... SOE spells doom for mmo's. I sure hope other companies take note of this.
Not "everyone" agrees with you and you don't speak for the entire MMO fan base.
Once you realize that you'll understand the world doesn't revolve around what you think about SoE or any other company for that matter.
LOL, actually, most do agree with me... furthermore, I never said "everyone" so typical of those that are puppets of SOE... sad.. maybe they will hire you, as you are the "expert" on SOE relations. Feel free to give them your money.. I for one will not, and I know for a fact, most agree with me. Go now and eat your cheerios stud.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by Glock21 It tells me alot about a company, when, everyone bails out of support for a game even when the association is minimal. It's clear SOE needs to keep their hands off MMO's. Furthermore, if a game company doesn't realize the mistake by associating themselves with SOE, they are truly out of touch with the mmo fan base... SOE spells doom for mmo's. I sure hope other companies take note of this.
Not "everyone" agrees with you and you don't speak for the entire MMO fan base.
Once you realize that you'll understand the world doesn't revolve around what you think about SoE or any other company for that matter.
Umm, I think he stated it very well. Does soe pay you off to speak for them??? dude wake up!
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by Glock21 It tells me alot about a company, when, everyone bails out of support for a game even when the association is minimal. It's clear SOE needs to keep their hands off MMO's. Furthermore, if a game company doesn't realize the mistake by associating themselves with SOE, they are truly out of touch with the mmo fan base... SOE spells doom for mmo's. I sure hope other companies take note of this.
Not "everyone" agrees with you and you don't speak for the entire MMO fan base.
Once you realize that you'll understand the world doesn't revolve around what you think about SoE or any other company for that matter.
Wow, I think you missed his whole point. It's incredible that most people are freaking out that soe is going to have some sort of involvement with this game. And with their track record, well, that speaks for itself. It's scaring the hell out of people, and Glock had a valid point. Maybe you should get over your own arrogance and take a hard look at why alot of people are not going to give the game a chance due to the association with soe. It's not an opinion, but fact. Look at the "Most anticipated MMO's" hype meter. This also speaks for itself. It used to be in the top 5 everyday. When they announced involvement with SoE, it dropped dramatically.
SOE is money oriented rather than people/customer service oriented. On the other hand they do generally delivery new game content.
I am curious though as to wether anyone who is Beta testing can answer this: When MS was backing Sigil there were very strict non-disclosure statements sent out. Has the same been done now that SOE is the backer?
Originally posted by Cymdai This comment is likely to draw me some hatred, but...
I think it's fair to say SOE is not "appreciated" by a much, MUCH larger percentage of the MMO playerbase, as opposed to having support.
Now, I know people will flame me and jump all over me for this, but WoW has more subscribers then ALL of SOE's games put together. That can be due partly to the fact that WoW is a great game. Or maybe it's because Blizzard has a positive track record in the history of their games. Starcraft was a great game (even though battlenet can rot in hell...forever), Diablo 2 generated more die-hard fans than any other game in my honest opinion, and Warcraft has been a strong series for nearly a decade. Again, I'm just stating my personal opinion here, but I think WoW has it's success half because it's a solid game, and half because of the name "Blizzard". When's the last time SOE ever, EVER mustered that sort of fan support?
I look at SOE's track record...and well, I feel sad and cold. Star Wars Galaxies, Planetside, Everquest 2, The Matrix Online (which, imo, sucked before SOE got it anyway). I think all of these titles had chances to succeed, especially Planetside (which I had the highest hopes for, and still enjoy...for free) However, these games fell short, in my opinion, because of god-awful techies, horrible customer support, a poor lack of patches/updates which enhanced the gaming experience, and several other factors.
For those of you who can not understand why people don't like SOE, you're damned fools. Open your eyes, even just for a second, and realize why they're vilified. It's NOT that hard to see, just take a second and do some of your research. Shady business policies, lying to their customers, horrible service and support, poor marketing decisions, god-awful techies, and that's just a few to name. I personally don't think any sort of funding or advertising is worth that sort of sacrifice.
The comment about SOE being the pervy old man, and Sigil being the naive girl, it's a great example. It'll start off fine...but give SOE time, and they'll be molesting the girl and the game in the blink of an eye. Just you wait.
So you're calling me a fool for never having a problem with SOE to speak of? I haven't, and I've used their tech support with great satisfaction, enjoyed playing Everquest for more than 6 years, and thoroughly enjoyed playing Everquest 2.
And how can you say they never put out patches or enhancments for their games? Everquest 2 has had tons of enhancements since it came out. It keeps getting better and better.
So you decide to call people who haven't had a bad experience a fool? Isn't that just a little over the top to make personal attacks because someone disagrees with you over a gaming company?
No, I didn't call you a fool, and you know damn well you're twisting my words.
I am calling you a fool, however, if you can't understand why other people do hate SOE. I am happy for you that you have lucked out and had a wonderful gaming experience under SOE's guidance. However, there's a much larger portion of the population, in my opinion, who have had a dismal/horrible/bad experience, or numerous of them, under SOE. If you can not understand why these people are so discouraged, perhaps you should pay a visit to the Star Wars Galaxies board...
If after that, you still are too blind to see why SOE is so hated, then you're just ignorant.
Again, I'm not saying you can't enjoy SOE's products, but you should try to understand why other people have vilified SOE, for what reasons they despise that company with such a passion.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
LOL, actually, most do agree with me... furthermore, I never said "everyone" so typical of those that are puppets of SOE... sad.. maybe they will hire you, as you are the "expert" on SOE relations. Feel free to give them your money.. I for one will not, and I know for a fact, most agree with me. Go now and eat your cheerios stud.
If as you assume SOE is universally hated, then who exactly is paying the subscription fees which make them the juggernaut of the MMO universe? You say most agree with you and will not give SOE their money. Obviously, the vast majority of SOE subscribers don't have the issues you have with this company. It just isn't reality to assume that all the subscribers hate SOE as much as you people and still are paying their fees. A few maybe, but most? show me the data. Where's your professionally prepared demographic study showing that most players paying SOE fees are unsatisfied?
The truth is that you are just absolutely dead stinking wrong that SOE is universally hated by the MMO community. A much more realistic assumtion would be that a few love SOE, the vast majority could not care less about their game's publisher, and a few hate SOE. A FEW. This is what science calls 'the bell curve' and I learned it in high school. It is applied to sociology, business theory, even your check out lines at Wal-Mart or a toll booth on the highway. The vast majority in the middle of the curve aren't logging into forums to declare their indifference to SOE. Think about it; have you ever seen this:
Section: General Discussion
Forum: News Discussion
Topic: SOE: I am totally indifferent to this company!!
And why would you? Indifference means you don't care enough to write a blog, post a reply or anything like that. So naturally you don't know by reading forums how many people just don't care about SOE. Let me say that again in a simpler way, YOU DON"T KNOW how many people hate SOE, love SOE or are indifferent to SOE. YOU DON"T KNOW.
But when one hates, one hates loud...you log in and post 'worst episode ever' thinking the world is now on your side, because you have seen sooooo many other haters flaming, you assume everyone is on board. When the people who don't care, don't respond. Leaving your concept of the universe totally skewed, cuz after all doesn't every real gamer write down every emotion they ever have about any company in as many forums as they possibly can?
What is your source for SOE being universally hated? Is it all the posts you've seen? You should be ashamed to assume that all those SOE hate posts are an accurate, unbiased and complete survey of every SOE subscribers feelings or even to apply the assumtion 'most hate em'.
Now I'm not saying I know the answers. I don't. But I do have a working concept of factoring multiple variables into the assumptions I make. And that means, logically, a company hated by the majority of their patrons cannot stand. Ergo....SOE is not hated.
Is it not logical to assume that if everyone hated SOE then their revenues would be in a downward spiral right now? Is it also not logical to assume that SOE is doing pretty freakin good financially, and therefore is a solid company with a strong subscriber base?
Your logic is solely based on what you have seen in forums, and I don't care how many hate posts you've seen, it isn't an accurate sampling by any professional standards.
You haters have truly created a great fantasy world in which SOE is universally hated, no one plays their games, no revenue is coming into their coffers and yet magically they have the capital and stockholder support to aquire Vanguards publishing rights.
If you don't factor the flame posts into your analysis of SOE, then the company seems to be doing quite well. Many games, many subscribers, they are adding new games, continuing development on existing games and throwing out expansions on a regular basis. This isn't the pattern of a company teetering on the edge. They are doing so well in fact that they must have a HUGE loyal subscribing base, which logically means that the bell curve will be bigger, meaning the haters will be more numerous. Other publishers have haters too, but usually they only have one or two games to their name, meaning their over all population is smaller = lower amount of haters = lower amount of posts. SOE with many games, more overall subscribers, more haters, more posts. The amount of flames about SOE aren't indicative of how bad they are, but rather how good they are.
Originally posted by Cymdai I am calling you a fool, however, if you can't understand why other people do hate SOE.
I understand why. They have a huge subscription base. Creating a huge bell curve of satisfaction. A few who love, a majority who are indifferent, and a few who hate. But the bell curve is so big, that the few haters outnumber the haters of other companies. Therefore you see more posts about the evils of SOE because they have a huge player base.
The foolish thing is to assume that because you've seen sooooo many posts flaming SOE that it must be universally hated. That is actually indicative of an enormous indifferent population.
Originally posted by Zorgo Originally posted by kable Come on...Brad keeps posting on how soe is not allowed to touch the game in anyway...would he be doing that if everyone loved soe? Even smedley the president of soe posted on the foh forums assuring everyone that he had no intentions on touching the game.
Isnt it sad that a company has such a bad reputation they have to tell people they have nothing to do with the dev of a game just to get people to buy it.
So fine not 'everyone' agrees with him but everyone cept you and maybe 5 other guys do.
You have negated your whole argument. If Brad spent so much time answering posts because he was smart enough to know that SOE was universally hated (as you assume)....then doesn't that mean he should be smart enough to know SOE shouldn't publish his game? Or are you really saying that he knowingly decided to put his game into the hands of a universally hated company? You can't give him credit for being business savvy on the one hand but a business baffoon on the other.
If again as you assume SOE is universally hated, then who exactly is paying the subscription fees which make them the juggernaut of the MMO universe? Obviously, the vast majority of SOE subscribers don't have the issues you have with this company. It just isn't reality to assume that all the subscribers hate SOE as much as you people and still are paying their fees. A few maybe, but most? show me the data.............
Ok of course I was exagerating, i dont really think evryone cept 5 people hate soe. Your right lots of people are indifferent as long as the game is good.
However one thing I am sure of is out of ALL the mmo companies soe now has one of the worst reps out there. Brad admited to having set his weekend aside after the announcement to answer peoples cpncerns regarding the soe change. That is damage control plain and simple.
Now do I personally hate soe, honestly no. But one thing I do know is they have little respect for us as customers (swg nge showed us that) therefore I would be more reluctant to give them my money. Not to say I would'nt buy a game of thiers if its great and nothing else good is out at the time, but the soe on the box would make me think twice and look at other options.
After a little research (nothing professional mind you), I came up with some numbers.
Looks to me that SOE controls in the neighborhood of 7% of the mmo market. That's pretty incredible and it doesn't include some of the games the station pass works for. Appears that something over 1.1 million subscribe to an SOE game. Now, if all those were U.S. citizens, it would mean that 1 in 260 play an SOE game. Now of course a lot of those subscribers are in different countries, but the analogy is good for example.
This means that business-wise, the partnership is a pretty good move.
I also found some things which could be used to refute my arguments. For example, in an earlier post I alluded that SOE's total subscription would potentially outrank WoW. I was dead wrong.
Where SOE controls 7% of the mmo market, Blizzard's got 39%....crazy. But don't think controlling 7% of the market is bad, most companies would die for that type of control. But Blizzard's success is truly mind blowing.
Here's my source (don't know how accurate it is, but it looks well done):
Originally posted by Zorgo After a little research (nothing professional mind you), I came up with some numbers. Looks to me that SOE controls in the neighborhood of 7% of the mmo market. That's pretty incredible and it doesn't include some of the games the station pass works for. Appears that something over 1.1 million subscribe to an SOE game. Now, if all those were U.S. citizens, it would mean that 1 in 260 play an SOE game. Now of course a lot of those subscribers are in different countries, but the analogy is good for example. This means that business-wise, the partnership is a pretty good move. I also found some things which could be used to refute my arguments. For example, in an earlier post I alluded that SOE's total subscription would potentially outrank WoW. I was dead wrong. Where SOE controls 7% of the mmo market, Blizzard's got 39%....crazy. But don't think controlling 7% of the market is bad, most companies would die for that type of control. But Blizzard's success is truly mind blowing. Here's my source (don't know how accurate it is, but it looks well done): http://www.mmogchart.com/
Nicely done, good information. That is a very nice chunk of the mmo market. There is no doubt that as one of the pioneers in this business, they will only get bigger..
Yes, it's safe to say SoE is here to stay, but to have that company involved with this game doesn't make me happy either. They have managed to screw alot of things up. But it's not entirely SoE's fault, it's the knotheads they employ as game developers.. My two cents, for whatever it's not worth.. lol.
I knew that was true Zorgo, not to sound like I'm full of myself.
That was the point I was trying to make before. Blizzard controls nearly 40% of the market...with 1 single title under the belt in this genre. SOE possesses what, half a dozen, and controls less than 10% of the market.
The point I was trying to make was, maybe Blizzard is doing so well because they made THAT good of a game. But maybe, just maybe it's also got something to do with the company's reputation with their players.
Let me put it like this, do you think if Sigil had partnered up with Blizzard or NCSoft, that there would be as much of a rebuttal as there is with the fact that SOE partnered up with them? I personally don't believe there would.
Now you mentioned a bell curve...I would definitely disagree with that. I would say a large population of players dislike SOE, a large number of players are indifferent towards SOE, and a few people enjoy them. That's my personal opinion. Why do I say this? It's a lot easier to go forum hunting, and see a negative post about SOE or one of their titles or services, as opposed to walk in and see a forum where people either praise, or even defend SOE's credibility.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Zorgo After a little research (nothing professional mind you), I came up with some numbers. Looks to me that SOE controls in the neighborhood of 7% of the mmo market. That's pretty incredible and it doesn't include some of the games the station pass works for. Appears that something over 1.1 million subscribe to an SOE game. Now, if all those were U.S. citizens, it would mean that 1 in 260 play an SOE game. Now of course a lot of those subscribers are in different countries, but the analogy is good for example. This means that business-wise, the partnership is a pretty good move. I also found some things which could be used to refute my arguments. For example, in an earlier post I alluded that SOE's total subscription would potentially outrank WoW. I was dead wrong. Where SOE controls 7% of the mmo market, Blizzard's got 39%....crazy. But don't think controlling 7% of the market is bad, most companies would die for that type of control. But Blizzard's success is truly mind blowing. Here's my source (don't know how accurate it is, but it looks well done): http://www.mmogchart.com/
Soe controls 7% of the mmo market outa how many publishing companies? Consider that most these companies are small independants and blizzard only has one game out, as well soe is one of the oldest and started off with the fisrt big hit 'EQ' the template which must other mmos have been basing themselves on....And soe also hd the license to starwars which shld of been a surething...and I think soe is doing an awfull job. Even Ncsoft, which publishes small independant companies games have passed soe!! There is no reason why soe with all there games and years head start shouldnt have a dominant grip on the market. Having only 7% is really quite sad and just further shows how incompetent they have been. After all I believ there highestr sub game is still EQ 1 a game that came out 9 years ago !!!!!
Originally posted by kable Originally posted by Zorgo After a little research (nothing professional mind you), I came up with some numbers. Looks to me that SOE controls in the neighborhood of 7% of the mmo market. That's pretty incredible and it doesn't include some of the games the station pass works for. Appears that something over 1.1 million subscribe to an SOE game. Now, if all those were U.S. citizens, it would mean that 1 in 260 play an SOE game. Now of course a lot of those subscribers are in different countries, but the analogy is good for example. This means that business-wise, the partnership is a pretty good move. I also found some things which could be used to refute my arguments. For example, in an earlier post I alluded that SOE's total subscription would potentially outrank WoW. I was dead wrong. Where SOE controls 7% of the mmo market, Blizzard's got 39%....crazy. But don't think controlling 7% of the market is bad, most companies would die for that type of control. But Blizzard's success is truly mind blowing. Here's my source (don't know how accurate it is, but it looks well done): http://www.mmogchart.com/
Soe controls 7% of the mmo market outa how many publishing companies? Consider that most these companies are small independants and blizzard only has one game out, as well soe is one of the oldest and started off with the fisrt big hit 'EQ' the template which must other mmos have been basing themselves on....And soe also hd the license to starwars which shld of been a surething...and I think soe is doing an awfull job. Even Ncsoft, which publishes small independant companies games have passed soe!! There is no reason why soe with all there games and years head start shouldnt have a dominant grip on the market. Having only 7% is really quite sad and just further shows how incompetent they have been. After all I believ there highestr sub game is still EQ 1 a game that came out 9 years ago !!!!! QFE, you nailed it on the head.
Well, I think it's safe to say, that most don't like $OE, can't say that I blame you guys, I am in the exact same boat. In fact i am boycotting any mmo that is linked with $OE. So, sadly, Vanguard will not be earning my business.
This is how I invision development meetings amonst various companies:
BLIZZARD ;
How can we make this game as fun as possible for as many as people possible.... End result a game that is admittedly mainstream yet undeniably fun for many people.
NCSOFT ;
How can we push the envelope and make something unique and different.... End result a game that is different while may not be mainstream has a loyal and respected fanbase.
SOE;
How can we make as much money as we posiibly can...End result a game that obviously lacks soul and is plain and bland.
Bottom line is soe does have a very a bad rep. They better stop screwing what little customers they still have in the name in the name of making money, and they better start concentrating on making GOOD games not making money. If they make good games then the money will come.
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this website before me. I didn't really want to read 25 pages of people moaning on how the game is going to suck now because of SOE.
We are the movers and shakers of the world, forever.
Originally posted by kable Soe controls 7% of the mmo market outa how many publishing companies? Consider that most these companies are small independants and blizzard only has one game out, as well soe is one of the oldest and started off with the fisrt big hit 'EQ' the template which must other mmos have been basing themselves on....And soe also hd the license to starwars which shld of been a surething...and I think soe is doing an awfull job. Even Ncsoft, which publishes small independant companies games have passed soe!! There is no reason why soe with all there games and years head start shouldnt have a dominant grip on the market. Having only 7% is really quite sad and just further shows how incompetent they have been. After all I believ there highestr sub game is still EQ 1 a game that came out 9 years ago !!!!!
Way to kick a man after he admits his mistake. Judging by your character, you must play a paladin. If youll remember, I did say that SOE had an incredible share of the market while Blizzard's was down right amazing. Now, I"m not sure what your degree is in, but you may be surprised to know that in a free market capitalist economy, 7% of a given market is, yes, incredible. Out of how many companies? Dozens it appears, which still makes it impressive.
You guys keep acting like SOE games are dying. I can assure you that EQ2 and EQ's customer bases are every bit as loyal as NCSofts. After all, some have their accounts after 9 years? (but it isn't 9 years, eq = 1999, this is 2006....7 years). Still, that's pretty freakin loyal. Your same example is actually validation of my assertion that SOE is doin' fine. My friends on EQ2 couldn't be turned to another game if I had a gun to their head. You can't say that NCSoft has a loyal customer base and SOE doesn't. Every time you open your mouth, you prove to me further that you are acting solely on emotion, you don't have a working sense of business fundamentals and your intent is simply to spread your indignation of Sony to the world.
Unless someone can provide some good links or some rational arguments to show that SOE is losing its customer base due to a poor reputation , I'm finished with this thread. I was trying to explore the rationale behind Vanguards move, you guys wanna flame SOE. Flame on.
The argument isn't that old SOE titles are dying. At least that's night what I'm arguing about.
The argument is that SOE's involvement with Vanguard has cost them subscriptions before the game even came out.
Also, every game has a loyal fanbase. That doesn't mean much to me...hell, even Mourning had a few people who supported that game and that company. Does that make Mourning a good game, or their founders a good company? Read that ridiculously long topic...there were people that still defended them and were pleased with them, but by no means do fanboys make a company good...
The same can be said for the flamers/haters. No, we don't make SOE a bad company. SOE makes SOE a bad company, we just express out hatred for them openly and regularly, and explain why we hate their guts on so many different levels.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Zorgo Originally posted by kable Soe controls 7% of the mmo market outa how many publishing companies? Consider that most these companies are small independants and blizzard only has one game out, as well soe is one of the oldest and started off with the fisrt big hit 'EQ' the template which must other mmos have been basing themselves on....And soe also hd the license to starwars which shld of been a surething...and I think soe is doing an awfull job. Even Ncsoft, which publishes small independant companies games have passed soe!! There is no reason why soe with all there games and years head start shouldnt have a dominant grip on the market. Having only 7% is really quite sad and just further shows how incompetent they have been. After all I believ there highestr sub game is still EQ 1 a game that came out 9 years ago !!!!!
Way to kick a man after he admits his mistake. Judging by your character, you must play a paladin. If youll remember, I did say that SOE had an incredible share of the market while Blizzard's was down right amazing. Now, I"m not sure what your degree is in, but you may be surprised to know that in a free market capitalist economy, 7% of a given market is, yes, incredible. Out of how many companies? Dozens it appears, which still makes it impressive.
You guys keep acting like SOE games are dying. I can assure you that EQ2 and EQ's customer bases are every bit as loyal as NCSofts. After all, some have their accounts after 9 years? (but it isn't 9 years, eq = 1999, this is 2006....7 years). Still, that's pretty freakin loyal. Your same example is actually validation of my assertion that SOE is doin' fine. My friends on EQ2 couldn't be turned to another game if I had a gun to their head. You can't say that NCSoft has a loyal customer base and SOE doesn't. Every time you open your mouth, you prove to me further that you are acting solely on emotion, you don't have a working sense of business fundamentals and your intent is simply to spread your indignation of Sony to the world.
Unless someone can provide some good links or some rational arguments to show that SOE is losing its customer base due to a poor reputation , I'm finished with this thread. I was trying to explore the rationale behind Vanguards move, you guys wanna flame SOE. Flame on.
Sigh...I wont even bother responding to the first part of your post (makes no sense to me) I already explained my self and even stated I am not an soe hater.
As for the last part of your post, you want links? try mmorpg.com there's a nice 13 page long thread there about soe to co-publish with sigil. Want more on how soe has a bad rep. try going to any game forum... they all have the same sentiments. Heck if you dont trust the internet, there was even a good article in the feburary edition of computer gaming world. Even ign had an article awhile back on the backlash soe has been getting.
Once again I dont hate soe and im not trying to kick you while your down ...I just disagree with you. You think most people love soe and I think most dont. You think soe should be proud of its 7%(even though they once had 90 %) control of the market, I think its hilarious that small companies are are kicking the ass of a huge corporation with near unlimited resources.
P.S. and i dont have no fancy degree and your right I never had much of a head for business so maybe i am the one who is wrong.
Comments
I think it's fair to say SOE is not "appreciated" by a much, MUCH larger percentage of the MMO playerbase, as opposed to having support.
Now, I know people will flame me and jump all over me for this, but WoW has more subscribers then ALL of SOE's games put together. That can be due partly to the fact that WoW is a great game. Or maybe it's because Blizzard has a positive track record in the history of their games. Starcraft was a great game (even though battlenet can rot in hell...forever), Diablo 2 generated more die-hard fans than any other game in my honest opinion, and Warcraft has been a strong series for nearly a decade. Again, I'm just stating my personal opinion here, but I think WoW has it's success half because it's a solid game, and half because of the name "Blizzard". When's the last time SOE ever, EVER mustered that sort of fan support?
I look at SOE's track record...and well, I feel sad and cold. Star Wars Galaxies, Planetside, Everquest 2, The Matrix Online (which, imo, sucked before SOE got it anyway). I think all of these titles had chances to succeed, especially Planetside (which I had the highest hopes for, and still enjoy...for free) However, these games fell short, in my opinion, because of god-awful techies, horrible customer support, a poor lack of patches/updates which enhanced the gaming experience, and several other factors.
For those of you who can not understand why people don't like SOE, you're damned fools. Open your eyes, even just for a second, and realize why they're vilified. It's NOT that hard to see, just take a second and do some of your research. Shady business policies, lying to their customers, horrible service and support, poor marketing decisions, god-awful techies, and that's just a few to name. I personally don't think any sort of funding or advertising is worth that sort of sacrifice.
The comment about SOE being the pervy old man, and Sigil being the naive girl, it's a great example. It'll start off fine...but give SOE time, and they'll be molesting the girl and the game in the blink of an eye. Just you wait.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Once you realize that you'll understand the world doesn't revolve around what you think about SoE or any other company for that matter.
LOL, actually, most do agree with me... furthermore, I never said "everyone" so typical of those that are puppets of SOE... sad.. maybe they will hire you, as you are the "expert" on SOE relations. Feel free to give them your money.. I for one will not, and I know for a fact, most agree with me. Go now and eat your cheerios stud.
Once you realize that you'll understand the world doesn't revolve around what you think about SoE or any other company for that matter.
Umm, I think he stated it very well. Does soe pay you off to speak for them??? dude wake up!
Once you realize that you'll understand the world doesn't revolve around what you think about SoE or any other company for that matter.
Wow, I think you missed his whole point. It's incredible that most people are freaking out that soe is going to have some sort of involvement with this game. And with their track record, well, that speaks for itself. It's scaring the hell out of people, and Glock had a valid point. Maybe you should get over your own arrogance and take a hard look at why alot of people are not going to give the game a chance due to the association with soe. It's not an opinion, but fact.
Look at the "Most anticipated MMO's" hype meter. This also speaks for itself. It used to be in the top 5 everyday. When they announced involvement with SoE, it dropped dramatically.
I am curious though as to wether anyone who is Beta testing can answer this: When MS was backing Sigil there were very strict non-disclosure statements sent out. Has the same been done now that SOE is the backer?
Is this the marketing/publishing we are to expect from SOE? Our beloved Firiona Vie is now a MAN (w/ man-boobs)!!
Scroll down mid-page. The EQ: Prophecy of Ro picture.
http://www.station.sony.com/en/
EQ1 - Shaman & Cleric 1999-2003
Others Played: AC1, AC2, AO, EQ2, EVE(Beta Tester), SWG(pre-NGE/CU), Guildwars, TSO, MxO(Beta Tester), Lineage 1, Lineage 2, WOW, COV/COH, DDO, Vanguard(Beta Tester), DAOC, Tabula Rasa
And how can you say they never put out patches or enhancments for their games? Everquest 2 has had tons of enhancements since it came out. It keeps getting better and better.
So you decide to call people who haven't had a bad experience a fool? Isn't that just a little over the top to make personal attacks because someone disagrees with you over a gaming company?
-----------------------
</OBAMA>
I am calling you a fool, however, if you can't understand why other people do hate SOE. I am happy for you that you have lucked out and had a wonderful gaming experience under SOE's guidance. However, there's a much larger portion of the population, in my opinion, who have had a dismal/horrible/bad experience, or numerous of them, under SOE. If you can not understand why these people are so discouraged, perhaps you should pay a visit to the Star Wars Galaxies board...
If after that, you still are too blind to see why SOE is so hated, then you're just ignorant.
Again, I'm not saying you can't enjoy SOE's products, but you should try to understand why other people have vilified SOE, for what reasons they despise that company with such a passion.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
If as you assume SOE is universally hated, then who exactly is paying the subscription fees which make them the juggernaut of the MMO universe? You say most agree with you and will not give SOE their money. Obviously, the vast majority of SOE subscribers don't have the issues you have with this company. It just isn't reality to assume that all the subscribers hate SOE as much as you people and still are paying their fees. A few maybe, but most? show me the data. Where's your professionally prepared demographic study showing that most players paying SOE fees are unsatisfied?
The truth is that you are just absolutely dead stinking wrong that SOE is universally hated by the MMO community. A much more realistic assumtion would be that a few love SOE, the vast majority could not care less about their game's publisher, and a few hate SOE. A FEW. This is what science calls 'the bell curve' and I learned it in high school. It is applied to sociology, business theory, even your check out lines at Wal-Mart or a toll booth on the highway. The vast majority in the middle of the curve aren't logging into forums to declare their indifference to SOE. Think about it; have you ever seen this:
Section: General Discussion
Forum: News Discussion
Topic: SOE: I am totally indifferent to this company!!
And why would you? Indifference means you don't care enough to write a blog, post a reply or anything like that. So naturally you don't know by reading forums how many people just don't care about SOE. Let me say that again in a simpler way, YOU DON"T KNOW how many people hate SOE, love SOE or are indifferent to SOE. YOU DON"T KNOW.
But when one hates, one hates loud...you log in and post 'worst episode ever' thinking the world is now on your side, because you have seen sooooo many other haters flaming, you assume everyone is on board. When the people who don't care, don't respond. Leaving your concept of the universe totally skewed, cuz after all doesn't every real gamer write down every emotion they ever have about any company in as many forums as they possibly can?
What is your source for SOE being universally hated? Is it all the posts you've seen? You should be ashamed to assume that all those SOE hate posts are an accurate, unbiased and complete survey of every SOE subscribers feelings or even to apply the assumtion 'most hate em'.
Now I'm not saying I know the answers. I don't. But I do have a working concept of factoring multiple variables into the assumptions I make. And that means, logically, a company hated by the majority of their patrons cannot stand. Ergo....SOE is not hated.
Is it not logical to assume that if everyone hated SOE then their revenues would be in a downward spiral right now? Is it also not logical to assume that SOE is doing pretty freakin good financially, and therefore is a solid company with a strong subscriber base?
Your logic is solely based on what you have seen in forums, and I don't care how many hate posts you've seen, it isn't an accurate sampling by any professional standards.
You haters have truly created a great fantasy world in which SOE is universally hated, no one plays their games, no revenue is coming into their coffers and yet magically they have the capital and stockholder support to aquire Vanguards publishing rights.
If you don't factor the flame posts into your analysis of SOE, then the company seems to be doing quite well. Many games, many subscribers, they are adding new games, continuing development on existing games and throwing out expansions on a regular basis. This isn't the pattern of a company teetering on the edge. They are doing so well in fact that they must have a HUGE loyal subscribing base, which logically means that the bell curve will be bigger, meaning the haters will be more numerous. Other publishers have haters too, but usually they only have one or two games to their name, meaning their over all population is smaller = lower amount of haters = lower amount of posts. SOE with many games, more overall subscribers, more haters, more posts. The amount of flames about SOE aren't indicative of how bad they are, but rather how good they are.
I understand why. They have a huge subscription base. Creating a huge bell curve of satisfaction. A few who love, a majority who are indifferent, and a few who hate. But the bell curve is so big, that the few haters outnumber the haters of other companies. Therefore you see more posts about the evils of SOE because they have a huge player base.
The foolish thing is to assume that because you've seen sooooo many posts flaming SOE that it must be universally hated. That is actually indicative of an enormous indifferent population.
This is basic business sociology.
Isnt it sad that a company has such a bad reputation they have to tell people they have nothing to do with the dev of a game just to get people to buy it.
So fine not 'everyone' agrees with him but everyone cept you and maybe 5 other guys do.
You have negated your whole argument. If Brad spent so much time answering posts because he was smart enough to know that SOE was universally hated (as you assume)....then doesn't that mean he should be smart enough to know SOE shouldn't publish his game? Or are you really saying that he knowingly decided to put his game into the hands of a universally hated company? You can't give him credit for being business savvy on the one hand but a business baffoon on the other.
If again as you assume SOE is universally hated, then who exactly is paying the subscription fees which make them the juggernaut of the MMO universe? Obviously, the vast majority of SOE subscribers don't have the issues you have with this company. It just isn't reality to assume that all the subscribers hate SOE as much as you people and still are paying their fees. A few maybe, but most? show me the data.............
Ok of course I was exagerating, i dont really think evryone cept 5 people hate soe. Your right lots of people are indifferent as long as the game is good.
However one thing I am sure of is out of ALL the mmo companies soe now has one of the worst reps out there. Brad admited to having set his weekend aside after the announcement to answer peoples cpncerns regarding the soe change. That is damage control plain and simple.
Now do I personally hate soe, honestly no. But one thing I do know is they have little respect for us as customers (swg nge showed us that) therefore I would be more reluctant to give them my money. Not to say I would'nt buy a game of thiers if its great and nothing else good is out at the time, but the soe on the box would make me think twice and look at other options.
After a little research (nothing professional mind you), I came up with some numbers.
Looks to me that SOE controls in the neighborhood of 7% of the mmo market. That's pretty incredible and it doesn't include some of the games the station pass works for. Appears that something over 1.1 million subscribe to an SOE game. Now, if all those were U.S. citizens, it would mean that 1 in 260 play an SOE game. Now of course a lot of those subscribers are in different countries, but the analogy is good for example.
This means that business-wise, the partnership is a pretty good move.
I also found some things which could be used to refute my arguments. For example, in an earlier post I alluded that SOE's total subscription would potentially outrank WoW. I was dead wrong.
Where SOE controls 7% of the mmo market, Blizzard's got 39%....crazy. But don't think controlling 7% of the market is bad, most companies would die for that type of control. But Blizzard's success is truly mind blowing.
Here's my source (don't know how accurate it is, but it looks well done):
http://www.mmogchart.com/
Nicely done, good information. That is a very nice chunk of the mmo market. There is no doubt that as one of the pioneers in this business, they will only get bigger..
That was the point I was trying to make before. Blizzard controls nearly 40% of the market...with 1 single title under the belt in this genre. SOE possesses what, half a dozen, and controls less than 10% of the market.
The point I was trying to make was, maybe Blizzard is doing so well because they made THAT good of a game. But maybe, just maybe it's also got something to do with the company's reputation with their players.
Let me put it like this, do you think if Sigil had partnered up with Blizzard or NCSoft, that there would be as much of a rebuttal as there is with the fact that SOE partnered up with them? I personally don't believe there would.
Now you mentioned a bell curve...I would definitely disagree with that. I would say a large population of players dislike SOE, a large number of players are indifferent towards SOE, and a few people enjoy them. That's my personal opinion. Why do I say this? It's a lot easier to go forum hunting, and see a negative post about SOE or one of their titles or services, as opposed to walk in and see a forum where people either praise, or even defend SOE's credibility.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
QFE, you nailed it on the head.
This is how I invision development meetings amonst various companies:
BLIZZARD ;
How can we make this game as fun as possible for as many as people possible.... End result a game that is admittedly mainstream yet undeniably fun for many people.
NCSOFT ;
How can we push the envelope and make something unique and different.... End result a game that is different while may not be mainstream has a loyal and respected fanbase.
SOE;
How can we make as much money as we posiibly can...End result a game that obviously lacks soul and is plain and bland.
Bottom line is soe does have a very a bad rep. They better stop screwing what little customers they still have in the name in the name of making money, and they better start concentrating on making GOOD games not making money. If they make good games then the money will come.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044368#post1044368
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this website before me. I didn't really want to read 25 pages of people moaning on how the game is going to suck now because of SOE.
We are the movers and shakers of the world, forever.
Way to kick a man after he admits his mistake. Judging by your character, you must play a paladin. If youll remember, I did say that SOE had an incredible share of the market while Blizzard's was down right amazing. Now, I"m not sure what your degree is in, but you may be surprised to know that in a free market capitalist economy, 7% of a given market is, yes, incredible. Out of how many companies? Dozens it appears, which still makes it impressive.
You guys keep acting like SOE games are dying. I can assure you that EQ2 and EQ's customer bases are every bit as loyal as NCSofts. After all, some have their accounts after 9 years? (but it isn't 9 years, eq = 1999, this is 2006....7 years). Still, that's pretty freakin loyal. Your same example is actually validation of my assertion that SOE is doin' fine. My friends on EQ2 couldn't be turned to another game if I had a gun to their head. You can't say that NCSoft has a loyal customer base and SOE doesn't. Every time you open your mouth, you prove to me further that you are acting solely on emotion, you don't have a working sense of business fundamentals and your intent is simply to spread your indignation of Sony to the world.
Unless someone can provide some good links or some rational arguments to show that SOE is losing its customer base due to a poor reputation , I'm finished with this thread. I was trying to explore the rationale behind Vanguards move, you guys wanna flame SOE. Flame on.
The argument is that SOE's involvement with Vanguard has cost them subscriptions before the game even came out.
Also, every game has a loyal fanbase. That doesn't mean much to me...hell, even Mourning had a few people who supported that game and that company. Does that make Mourning a good game, or their founders a good company? Read that ridiculously long topic...there were people that still defended them and were pleased with them, but by no means do fanboys make a company good...
The same can be said for the flamers/haters. No, we don't make SOE a bad company. SOE makes SOE a bad company, we just express out hatred for them openly and regularly, and explain why we hate their guts on so many different levels.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Way to kick a man after he admits his mistake. Judging by your character, you must play a paladin. If youll remember, I did say that SOE had an incredible share of the market while Blizzard's was down right amazing. Now, I"m not sure what your degree is in, but you may be surprised to know that in a free market capitalist economy, 7% of a given market is, yes, incredible. Out of how many companies? Dozens it appears, which still makes it impressive.
You guys keep acting like SOE games are dying. I can assure you that EQ2 and EQ's customer bases are every bit as loyal as NCSofts. After all, some have their accounts after 9 years? (but it isn't 9 years, eq = 1999, this is 2006....7 years). Still, that's pretty freakin loyal. Your same example is actually validation of my assertion that SOE is doin' fine. My friends on EQ2 couldn't be turned to another game if I had a gun to their head. You can't say that NCSoft has a loyal customer base and SOE doesn't. Every time you open your mouth, you prove to me further that you are acting solely on emotion, you don't have a working sense of business fundamentals and your intent is simply to spread your indignation of Sony to the world.
Unless someone can provide some good links or some rational arguments to show that SOE is losing its customer base due to a poor reputation , I'm finished with this thread. I was trying to explore the rationale behind Vanguards move, you guys wanna flame SOE. Flame on.
Sigh...I wont even bother responding to the first part of your post (makes no sense to me) I already explained my self and even stated I am not an soe hater.
As for the last part of your post, you want links? try mmorpg.com there's a nice 13 page long thread there about soe to co-publish with sigil. Want more on how soe has a bad rep. try going to any game forum... they all have the same sentiments. Heck if you dont trust the internet, there was even a good article in the feburary edition of computer gaming world. Even ign had an article awhile back on the backlash soe has been getting.
Once again I dont hate soe and im not trying to kick you while your down ...I just disagree with you. You think most people love soe and I think most dont. You think soe should be proud of its 7%(even though they once had 90 %) control of the market, I think its hilarious that small companies are are kicking the ass of a huge corporation with near unlimited resources.
P.S. and i dont have no fancy degree and your right I never had much of a head for business so maybe i am the one who is wrong.