So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
Asking questions = good Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers, Lahnmir
There's a good reason why leading questions or speculation are not permitted in courtrooms as they influence the jury to come to conclusions which have little to no basis in the known facts.
First this isn't a court of law. 2nd in most countries they don't want anyone who is innocent to be found guilty, under that standard 99% of guilty can potentially go free.
So you are content with massive scamming just because you don't want a person to voice an opinion on a forum that someone looks to be deceptive and potentially warn victims?
I suppose you don't believe in early warning systems much do ya?
What massive scamming?
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
Asking questions = good Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers, Lahnmir
There's a good reason why leading questions or speculation are not permitted in courtrooms as they influence the jury to come to conclusions which have little to no basis in the known facts.
First this isn't a court of law. 2nd in most countries they don't want anyone who is innocent to be found guilty, under that standard 99% of guilty can potentially go free.
So you are content with massive scamming just because you don't want a person to voice an opinion on a forum that someone looks to be deceptive and potentially warn victims?
I suppose you don't believe in early warning systems much do ya?
What massive scamming?
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I suppose you want to play the definition game now. Where you tell me there is no proof of fraud, and I tell you that most scams don't rise to the level of fraud. That fraud in most cases is illegal and scams are mostly legal.
You don't think all these crowdfunding failures are a problem for so many customers that got jack squat? I for one wish there were more people warning back in the early days that these crowdfunding MMO's were all likely to fail. Rather then all these people saying, we don't have 100 percent proof of that. All saying, nothing to see here, go about your business until 100 percent confirmation.
I think we are way past giving them the benefit of doubt now. Now they need to prove that they are solid if they want any respect from me.
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
Asking questions = good Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers, Lahnmir
There's a good reason why leading questions or speculation are not permitted in courtrooms as they influence the jury to come to conclusions which have little to no basis in the known facts.
First this isn't a court of law. 2nd in most countries they don't want anyone who is innocent to be found guilty, under that standard 99% of guilty can potentially go free.
So you are content with massive scamming just because you don't want a person to voice an opinion on a forum that someone looks to be deceptive and potentially warn victims?
I suppose you don't believe in early warning systems much do ya?
What massive scamming?
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I suppose you want to play the definition game now. Where you tell me there is no proof of fraud, and I tell you that most scams don't rise to the level of fraud. That fraud in most cases is illegal and scams are mostly legal.
You don't think all these crowdfunding failures are a problem for so many customers that got jack squat? I for one wish there were more people warning back in the early days that these crowdfunding MMO's were all likely to fail. Rather then all these people saying, we don't have 100 percent proof of that. All saying, nothing to see here, go about your business until 100 percent confirmation.
I think we are way past giving them the benefit of doubt now. Now they need to prove that they are solid if they want any respect from me.
Failure doesn’t mean scam. Words matter.
That is besides the high failure percentage and the discussion about liability and accountability. You can’t just throw random words around when discussing something, especially when the devil is in the details.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
No surprise that yet another low budget mmorpg with hobby game developers fail. With this one it was just time until it failed, just like with chronicles of elyria and what's turning out to be a bunch of games now.
The reason why I cut renfail some slack is that they avoided to monetizise the shit out of the game, there were no absurd game store during the funding, they just sold the game as it was. He were also honest about it being a passion project done on spare time and it was never going to be more than a game made by hobbyist.
If you honestly think its a scam you need to learn how to curb your enthusiasm for games during development.
All of this still doesn't eliminate the possibility that he could have pocketed some money that he wasn't supposed to.
Best scammers come across as honest, sincere and hard working good people - that's how they get you.
They will tell you everything you want to hear and go to great lengths to come across as good people.
So if you honestly think that just because someone tells you what you want to hear, comes across as nice, polite and honest, posts things how you shouldn't give them money, appears like they aren't too greedy - totally makes this person infallible and beyond being a scammer - I got some news for ya...
With all alpha access types of funding the reason to pay for them is that you want to play them as they are right now. When I took a look at the game it looked like it was very low quality so I chose not to pay them money for their product.
so yeah, i actually listened to what he said and followed his advice to the point.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
So you did NOTHING.... NOTHING at all except complain that I do not jump on your "They are frauds who lied about using the money for salaries" bandwagon with zero proof.
You said "All I want to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" of dollars went.."
You didn't even ASK them. Not here. Not on their forums. Not on their Discord.
Too much effort?
You want to focus on the above question... then go get some answers and bring it here. Right now your credibility level is... zero
And everytime someone pushes an accusation without proof it diminishes legitimate concerns. THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
if you have actual proof of malfeasance I think everybody on these forums would applaud and get on board, but right now you are just throwing shit all over. I mean at least ASK them and link their response as a start of discussion.
My response to your response is your response. Insults are the last line of defense.
You conveniently overlook points I made in both threads about this game time and again...
Asking me to prove things about their personal finances that can't be proven. Ignoring/overlooking things even you've said about the developers receiving $0 pay, how Unity is free, then trying to make everything about me rather than the scammers asking for money from people here both in the past AND currently...
"THAT is why what you are doing is so dangerous. It allows people to paint critics with a broad brush of “trolls”.
Yes, me asking questions is very "dangerous"..
From the post history from past SoL threads on this site ANYONE who tried to ask Tim any questions HE called a troll. Any person asking him game development questions who actually have game development knowledge was being called a troll by someone with no game development history at all..
I guess no one should ever ask questions about any crowdfunded game ever again because it's "dangerous".. That would be very convenient for every single scamstarter that comes along in the future..
The level of cover you're providing is what is actually "dangerous" because real people will end up losing real money not just with this game but with others.
Asking questions = good Asking suggestive questions because you have already taken a stance and just want to paint a certain picture = bad
It isn’t hard guys..
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Its not just that, but he has aggressively attacked me and other "orange names" (why he is obsessed with that term I don't know) for not jumping on his "THEY LIED AND TIM WAS FIRED FOR STEALING MONEY" bandwagon.
Asking questions is good Attacking others who don't instantly agree with your assertion is bad Not even taking the effort to ASK the company before making that assertion = WORSE.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think its commendable that once you have 100% definitive proof that the company is scamming someone, then I suppose you will jump on the bandwagon and call them for what they are doing. I don't think that's very useful thou, because by the time you have 100% certainty then pretty much everyone will already know also, so there is no prevention.
I think people who were able to use skillful insight and intuitiveness to call these people out early on, when the information is still useful to help people realize the truth so they are not scammed. This is hard to do, and requires people to go out on a limb. But you have to respect when they turn out to be right.
Preventing something from breaking is much harder than just agreeing after its confirmed broke. Being able to predict something before its broke is way more useful. Being able to say something is broke, after everyone else has already confirmed its broke, ya that's just a no brainer, not particularly useful to me.
Lets be 100% clear here
It's one thing to point out FACTS like: They admit they have zero experience making an MMORPG and they claim to be able to produce a complex MMORPG in their spare time while keeping their day jobs. And pointing out that the odds of that being successful is pretty much ZERO
It's quite another thing to say: They scammed everyone because they said they would not use the money to pay themselves but Tim and his brother leaving the company means that they did just that! FRAUD!!!!
DO you honestly not see the difference between those two? Because that is what is happening here. Almost everyone believes the first (although somehow at least one poster here bought the game... which is still hard to believe). The line is drawn at the second, which IMHO is over the line and discredits ACTUAL PROVEN concerns.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You can’t just throw random words around when discussing something, especially when the devil is in the details.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Are opinions against the rules now?
Here let me explain the difference with examples:
Example 1. "I suspect that these guys left the company because of financial shenanigans. Can't prove it yet, but it seems fishy to me." This is an OPINION. Everyone can have one. As a matter of fact this is what I said to one of these guys and was subsequently attacked: "Note that not once have I criticized your opinion. I am merely stating my own and saying that if you showed me that they lied I would agree with you"
Example 2. "The lead developer left. This game is a scam and they paid themselves with Crowdfunded money after promising not to". This is framed as a FACT.
Then to make it worse, when simple proof is asked for the second, the person asking is attacked as "DEFENDING SCAMING HUR DER". And to top it off, the person making the allegation didn't even ASK THE COMPANY OR PEOPLE INVOLVED...
So come on. Let's be clear here that there is a difference between the two. If people want to go and aggressively push for an answer from the company that would be great. I have done so in the past with other companies and issues. That's how you do it. Not saying that they in essence stole money without even asking them first...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Made a Duplicate post but rather than just leaving an empty box...
Here is a question. An honest question. If the goal was the scam people and run off with the cash after telling everyone they would not pay themselves... would it not have made sense to simply hire an artist to push out pixel art and sell items in their store and have "monthly sales" all these years?
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm not advocating for SoL but what scam?
They only sold the game/access to the alpha for a short period of time right?
Maybe I dont have the mind of a scammer but wouldnt a scam rather try to sell as much as possible?
No because they want to repeat the scam over and over again - through another kickstarter (that will also fail) and then another one etc...
it's a steady stream of income - for free - people just give their money freely, and there are no regulations that money is being used for the project or that any effort (than minimal one to show that something is being done) is needed. So after a time of just basically doing enough to make a tech-demo - you can pocket all the rest of the money and say the project failed.
then you rinse and repeat - start another kickstarter etc...
On the other hand if you went for a super hard scam where you are selling everything to max - you would piss off people too much and they wouldn' give you money in the next kickstarter - so scamming to max extent - backfires and you get blacklisted - but doing a low/moderate scam to where you can pass it off as "we tried hard but didn't work out" - and people believe you - you can keep that going forever.
Just look at the number of posters in this thread who will pass of any kickstarter failure as "totally fine and expected" - without taking into account that this is just taking someone's word (someone who already has the money and doesn't have to give it back, nor do they have to use the money to finish the project mind you) - can say "we failed" and all is forgiven.
I mean who would have thought that setting up a platform where - anyone without any experience can pitch an idea, ask for money donations for their idea, then they don't have to show at all what work or effort is being put into the project or how the money is being used, and can litterally show of existing assets based game - like unity assets - where they spent maybe 50 hours of work - and then they can just sit on the project for years - never working on it, collecting more money - and then can just say "we failed, sorry" - keep all the money and in reality all they ever did was 50 hours of work.
But all the above is 100% fine - because they said that they tried and failed, it's ok - see there is no scam, because game projects fail all the time right?
Will SoL make it? Probably not, but I am pretty sure that has little to do with this situation or because its a “scam.”
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Wll SoL make it - are you serious? It's a project - started by a dude who has never written a single line of game code, has never made a game period. The team consisted of work for free team again who has never made a mmorpg period.
My 6 year old daughter wants to build a rocket to fly in space by the end of this week... will she make it?
come on man...
But... of all of us here.. YOU gave the dude money when you already knew all this? PLUS they said they were doing this in their spare time after their day jobs?
I mean...
come on man...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You can’t just throw random words around when discussing something, especially when the devil is in the details.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Are opinions against the rules now?
Here let me explain the difference with examples:
Example 1. "I suspect that these guys left the company because of financial shenanigans. Can't prove it yet, but it seems fishy to me." This is an OPINION. Everyone can have one. As a matter of fact this is what I said to one of these guys and was subsequently attacked: "Note that not once have I criticized your opinion. I am merely stating my own and saying that if you showed me that they lied I would agree with you"
Example 2. "The lead developer left. This game is a scam and they paid themselves with Crowdfunded money after promising not to". This is framed as a FACT.
Then to make it worse, when simple proof is asked for the second, the person asking is attacked as "DEFENDING SCAMING HUR DER". And to top it off, the person making the allegation didn't even ASK THE COMPANY OR PEOPLE INVOLVED...
So come on. Let's be clear here that there is a difference between the two. If people want to go and aggressively push for an answer from the company that would be great. I have done so in the past with other companies and issues. That's how you do it. Not saying that they in essence stole money without even asking them first...
I get where you are coming from. You are being cautious and want to give them the benefit of doubt. I don't think that's unreasonable in most cases.
You are trying to protect an innocent developer from harm, but what about all these innocent backers, do they deserve any protections?
Do you really think these crowdfunded MMO's still deserve the benefit of the doubt? Has there even been one that has keep all their promises? Released on time, released with all goals achieved, fully released at all? So many of these are all delaying right before NDA's are supposed to drop, or right before a large player base gets to see if its all BS.
There becomes a time when so many of these are walking away with all this money unaccounted for, it starts to become the takers responsibility to prove they are doing everything legit.
If you asked them if they stole any money, and they told you they didn't. Even if you believed them this would still just be an opinion. How are you going to ever know for a FACT they didn't take 1 penny ever? This doesn't even include that they are talking salary and there is so many ways to pay yourself that is not included in a salary.
Finally, I am not seeing where they are saying this is a provable FACT. So anything they are saying, I am taking as their opinion, and they are putting out a reasonable hypothetical. From my perspective I think it is reasonable to believe there is more than a slight chance there is some form of deception going on in most of these cases.
I always saw this as a "hardcore oldschool mmo" made by people who were never actually good at those types of games. never actually made a game
Fixed that for you
That too, but I meant actually playing the games. I think they were all noobs in early EQ and never did the content that drove progression of the game, hence the type of systems they are pushing. It seems to cater to the bottom 10% of the playerbase.
Made a Duplicate post but rather than just leaving an empty box...
Here is a question. An honest question. If the goal was the scam people and run off with the cash after telling everyone they would not pay themselves... would it not have made sense to simply hire an artist to push out pixel art and sell items in their store and have "monthly sales" all these years?
Sure I think there are better ways to scam people. But scams can come in all sizes, some elaborate and some are minor. Its like stealing, I would bet most theft is for very small sums. However theft is theft regardless of sum, although legally there can be varying degrees and there are certain terms various values.
Maybe it didn't start fully as a scam, but as failure became more of a reality, they didn't want to turn off the spigot so instead of announcing the failure, they keep it going a while longer.
My question to you is this, if a company purposely deceives the customer, even just a little bit, do you think that is equal to a scam? Because I think you are getting caught up on your own perceived definition.
You can’t just throw random words around when discussing something, especially when the devil is in the details.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Are opinions against the rules now?
Here let me explain the difference with examples:
Example 1. "I suspect that these guys left the company because of financial shenanigans. Can't prove it yet, but it seems fishy to me." This is an OPINION. Everyone can have one. As a matter of fact this is what I said to one of these guys and was subsequently attacked: "Note that not once have I criticized your opinion. I am merely stating my own and saying that if you showed me that they lied I would agree with you"
Example 2. "The lead developer left. This game is a scam and they paid themselves with Crowdfunded money after promising not to". This is framed as a FACT.
Then to make it worse, when simple proof is asked for the second, the person asking is attacked as "DEFENDING SCAMING HUR DER". And to top it off, the person making the allegation didn't even ASK THE COMPANY OR PEOPLE INVOLVED...
So come on. Let's be clear here that there is a difference between the two. If people want to go and aggressively push for an answer from the company that would be great. I have done so in the past with other companies and issues. That's how you do it. Not saying that they in essence stole money without even asking them first...
I get where you are coming from. You are being cautious and want to give them the benefit of doubt. I don't think that's unreasonable in most cases.
You are trying to protect an innocent developer from harm, but what about all these innocent backers, do they deserve any protections?
Do you really think these crowdfunded MMO's still deserve the benefit of the doubt? Has there even been one that has keep all their promises? Released on time, released with all goals achieved, fully released at all? So many of these are all delaying right before NDA's are supposed to drop, or right before a large player base gets to see if its all BS.
There becomes a time when so many of these are walking away with all this money unaccounted for, it starts to become the takers responsibility to prove they are doing everything legit.
Do you see the difference in:
Company A: LITERALLY says “We have never done this before. We are going to make an MMORPG in our spare time”. Also says”We will not pay ourselves one penny of the Crowdfunded money”. Company has no monthly sales, pre-launch item store, and no ads all over the place. Company maybe raised (by my back of the napkin math) $100k total (max, likely half that) over 6+ years.
Company B: “Here is a list of all our prior games. We will build a fully functional MMORPG in 2 years with a budget of $1,000,000”. Company uses that money to pay themselves as much as $200k a year (each), puts up a pre-launch cash shop, has monthly sales, raises millions and millions more while paying themselves for delaying the game year after year.
There is a difference there. To me at least. And again... I have no problem with people having a different opinion on it but I do have a problem when people assert that if you don’t believe Tim in effect stole money (with no proof) that you support scams. That’s just ludicrous.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Made a Duplicate post but rather than just leaving an empty box...
Here is a question. An honest question. If the goal was the scam people and run off with the cash after telling everyone they would not pay themselves... would it not have made sense to simply hire an artist to push out pixel art and sell items in their store and have "monthly sales" all these years?
Sure I think there are better ways to scam people. But scams can come in all sizes, some elaborate and some are minor. Its like stealing, I would bet most theft is for very small sums. However theft is theft regardless of sum, although legally there can be varying degrees and there are certain terms various values.
Maybe it didn't start fully as a scam, but as failure became more of a reality, they didn't want to turn off the spigot so instead of announcing the failure, they keep it going a while longer.
My question to you is this, if a company purposely deceives the customer, even just a little bit, do you think that is equal to a scam? Because I think you are getting caught up on your own perceived definition.
You may not realize this but they DID turn of the spigot. They shut their store for a long time (a year? 6 months?) while they went dark and did an internal evaluation (Alpha testers were still part of it).
And the answer to your question is easy: Yes. If a company “purposely deceives the customer” they IMHO should actually face criminal prosecution.
Edit to add: Interesting post that describes them shutting down the store 2 years ago. Also goes into what they spent the money on( a certain number of part-time contractors) https://sagaoflucimia.com/development-stage-two/
Second edit: Looks like they turned off their store for 1 year. From March 2019 to March 2020.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Company A: LITERALLY says “We have never done this before. We are going to make an MMORPG in our spare time”. Also says”We will not pay ourselves one penny of the Crowdfunded money”. Company has no monthly sales, pre-launch item store, and no ads all over the place. Company maybe raised (by my back of the napkin math) $100k total (max, likely half that) over 6+ years.
Company B: “Here is a list of all our prior games. We will build a fully functional MMORPG in 2 years with a budget of $1,000,000”. Company uses that money to pay themselves as much as $200k a year (each), puts up a pre-launch cash shop, has monthly sales, raises millions and millions more while paying themselves for delaying the game year after year.
There is a difference there. To me at least. And again... I have no problem with people having a different opinion on it but I do have a problem when people assert that if you don’t believe Tim in effect stole money (with no proof) that you support scams. That’s just ludicrous.
Well I am not sure what difference I am supposed to see here.
Which company is being honest? I have no clue, there is not enough information to judge if either company is being honest or not. Maybe company A is not the best scammer. Some people have small goals.
I remember in the old days of UO there was a scam you would put too much weight in the trade window, complete the trade and everything would drop to the ground and the scammer would just pick up all the items from the ground. Most of those scams before it was fixed was literally for just some in game currency. I guarantee those scammers made a whole lot less that $100k. But they were scams none the less.
I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. Are you implying $100k is not enough to be considered a scam?
Company A: LITERALLY says “We have never done this before. We are going to make an MMORPG in our spare time”. Also says”We will not pay ourselves one penny of the Crowdfunded money”. Company has no monthly sales, pre-launch item store, and no ads all over the place. Company maybe raised (by my back of the napkin math) $100k total (max, likely half that) over 6+ years.
Company B: “Here is a list of all our prior games. We will build a fully functional MMORPG in 2 years with a budget of $1,000,000”. Company uses that money to pay themselves as much as $200k a year (each), puts up a pre-launch cash shop, has monthly sales, raises millions and millions more while paying themselves for delaying the game year after year.
There is a difference there. To me at least. And again... I have no problem with people having a different opinion on it but I do have a problem when people assert that if you don’t believe Tim in effect stole money (with no proof) that you support scams. That’s just ludicrous.
Well I am not sure what difference I am supposed to see here.
Which company is being honest? I have no clue, there is not enough information to judge if either company is being honest or not. Maybe company A is not the best scammer. Some people have small goals.
I remember in the old days of UO there was a scam you would put too much weight in the trade window, complete the trade and everything would drop to the ground and the scammer would just pick up all the items from the ground. Most of those scams before it was fixed was literally for just some in game currency. I guarantee those scammers made a whole lot less that $100k. But they were scams none the less.
I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. Are you implying $100k is not enough to be considered a scam?
Pretty sure you understand what I was saying and if not, as I said you can have your own opinion. Also, see my edit.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You are trying to protect an innocent developer from harm, but what about all these innocent backers, do they deserve any protections?
Backers are not innocent, they knew the risks. They just refuse to own up to it. That makes them irresponsible.
Well see I don't really agree with you here. This is exactly what allows scammers to profit. People prey on others that are not fully knowledgeable. I believe that if all these backers knew what they know now, very few would have given these games money at all. This implies they were not aware of the level of risk.
This is why so many industries have consumer protection or things like lemon laws, to protect consumers who are not spending every waking minute like a lawyer reading all the fine print of everything, trying to be an expert in every single industry.
Most of these backers were looking at this like they wanted to preorder the game and help FastTrack the game to completion.
I preordered New World on steam, luckily steam has a return policy. Kickstarter doesn't have this policy, unfortunately hindsight is 20/20. Now that I'm more aware I wont use Kickstarter again.
Even if you go with the fact the backer should have been aware. That's like saying people should be aware not to walk alone at night on a street. Does this give someone the right to take advantage? Backers should be given larger protections.
These backers are not getting the risk reward like an investor, they are not getting company assets, or shares, or profit. What's funny is contract law gives the investor more rights than a backer, that's the joke.
Just going to put this out there, that this whole thing seems fishy. The only way founders /ceo get slapped with nda's and the like, is if they got caught doing something very wrong, and the rest of the company had them by the balls.
The fact that the company itself has not said anything at all, is also Sus AF, which makes me wonder if Tim shuy the door behind him, but left the lights on just to give the illusion that someone was home.
But then again, I have no idea how active the other employee have been with the backers, or on social media, and right now, unless the supposed new CEO speaks up, I think the backers should look into getting a lawyer
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
@remsleep did you donate to this project knowing he had not written a single line of game code? Whose fault is that?
To be fair, a lot developers and game designers do not directly write code, they process ideas, work programs, and piece together systems into a coherent design.
Just like 3D,and animation artist does not do code, but they still bring the game world to life.
As such, not writing code for someone like Tim who made it clear that he was a visionary and artist is not the least bit out of the ordinary.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You don't think all these crowdfunding failures are a problem for so many customers that got jack squat? I for one wish there were more people warning back in the early days that these crowdfunding MMO's were all likely to fail. Rather then all these people saying, we don't have 100 percent proof of that. All saying, nothing to see here, go about your business until 100 percent confirmation.
I think we are way past giving them the benefit of doubt now. Now they need to prove that they are solid if they want any respect from me.
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I'm not advocating for SoL but what scam?
They only sold the game/access to the alpha for a short period of time right?
Maybe I dont have the mind of a scammer but wouldnt a scam rather try to sell as much as possible?
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
so yeah, i actually listened to what he said and followed his advice to the point.
Asking questions is good
Attacking others who don't instantly agree with your assertion is bad
Not even taking the effort to ASK the company before making that assertion = WORSE.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's one thing to point out FACTS like: They admit they have zero experience making an MMORPG and they claim to be able to produce a complex MMORPG in their spare time while keeping their day jobs. And pointing out that the odds of that being successful is pretty much ZERO
It's quite another thing to say: They scammed everyone because they said they would not use the money to pay themselves but Tim and his brother leaving the company means that they did just that! FRAUD!!!!
DO you honestly not see the difference between those two? Because that is what is happening here. Almost everyone believes the first (although somehow at least one poster here bought the game... which is still hard to believe). The line is drawn at the second, which IMHO is over the line and discredits ACTUAL PROVEN concerns.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Here let me explain the difference with examples:
Example 1. "I suspect that these guys left the company because of financial shenanigans. Can't prove it yet, but it seems fishy to me." This is an OPINION. Everyone can have one. As a matter of fact this is what I said to one of these guys and was subsequently attacked: "Note that not once have I criticized your opinion. I am merely stating my own and saying that if you showed me that they lied I would agree with you"
Example 2. "The lead developer left. This game is a scam and they paid themselves with Crowdfunded money after promising not to". This is framed as a FACT.
Then to make it worse, when simple proof is asked for the second, the person asking is attacked as "DEFENDING SCAMING HUR DER". And to top it off, the person making the allegation didn't even ASK THE COMPANY OR PEOPLE INVOLVED...
So come on. Let's be clear here that there is a difference between the two. If people want to go and aggressively push for an answer from the company that would be great. I have done so in the past with other companies and issues. That's how you do it. Not saying that they in essence stole money without even asking them first...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Here is a question. An honest question. If the goal was the scam people and run off with the cash after telling everyone they would not pay themselves... would it not have made sense to simply hire an artist to push out pixel art and sell items in their store and have "monthly sales" all these years?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I mean...
come on man...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I get where you are coming from. You are being cautious and want to give them the benefit of doubt. I don't think that's unreasonable in most cases.
You are trying to protect an innocent developer from harm, but what about all these innocent backers, do they deserve any protections?
Do you really think these crowdfunded MMO's still deserve the benefit of the doubt? Has there even been one that has keep all their promises? Released on time, released with all goals achieved, fully released at all? So many of these are all delaying right before NDA's are supposed to drop, or right before a large player base gets to see if its all BS.
There becomes a time when so many of these are walking away with all this money unaccounted for, it starts to become the takers responsibility to prove they are doing everything legit.
If you asked them if they stole any money, and they told you they didn't. Even if you believed them this would still just be an opinion. How are you going to ever know for a FACT they didn't take 1 penny ever? This doesn't even include that they are talking salary and there is so many ways to pay yourself that is not included in a salary.
Finally, I am not seeing where they are saying this is a provable FACT. So anything they are saying, I am taking as their opinion, and they are putting out a reasonable hypothetical. From my perspective I think it is reasonable to believe there is more than a slight chance there is some form of deception going on in most of these cases.
That too, but I meant actually playing the games. I think they were all noobs in early EQ and never did the content that drove progression of the game, hence the type of systems they are pushing. It seems to cater to the bottom 10% of the playerbase.
Maybe it didn't start fully as a scam, but as failure became more of a reality, they didn't want to turn off the spigot so instead of announcing the failure, they keep it going a while longer.
My question to you is this, if a company purposely deceives the customer, even just a little bit, do you think that is equal to a scam? Because I think you are getting caught up on your own perceived definition.
Company A: LITERALLY says “We have never done this before. We are going to make an MMORPG in our spare time”. Also says”We will not pay ourselves one penny of the Crowdfunded money”. Company has no monthly sales, pre-launch item store, and no ads all over the place. Company maybe raised (by my back of the napkin math) $100k total (max, likely half that) over 6+ years.
Company B: “Here is a list of all our prior games. We will build a fully functional MMORPG in 2 years with a budget of $1,000,000”. Company uses that money to pay themselves as much as $200k a year (each), puts up a pre-launch cash shop, has monthly sales, raises millions and millions more while paying themselves for delaying the game year after year.
There is a difference there. To me at least. And again... I have no problem with people having a different opinion on it but I do have a problem when people assert that if you don’t believe Tim in effect stole money (with no proof) that you support scams. That’s just ludicrous.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And the answer to your question is easy: Yes. If a company “purposely deceives the customer” they IMHO should actually face criminal prosecution.
Edit to add:
Interesting post that describes them shutting down the store 2 years ago. Also goes into what they spent the money on( a certain number of part-time contractors)
https://sagaoflucimia.com/development-stage-two/
Second edit:
Looks like they turned off their store for 1 year. From March 2019 to March 2020.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well I am not sure what difference I am supposed to see here.
Which company is being honest? I have no clue, there is not enough information to judge if either company is being honest or not. Maybe company A is not the best scammer. Some people have small goals.
I remember in the old days of UO there was a scam you would put too much weight in the trade window, complete the trade and everything would drop to the ground and the scammer would just pick up all the items from the ground. Most of those scams before it was fixed was literally for just some in game currency. I guarantee those scammers made a whole lot less that $100k. But they were scams none the less.
I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. Are you implying $100k is not enough to be considered a scam?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is why so many industries have consumer protection or things like lemon laws, to protect consumers who are not spending every waking minute like a lawyer reading all the fine print of everything, trying to be an expert in every single industry.
Most of these backers were looking at this like they wanted to preorder the game and help FastTrack the game to completion.
I preordered New World on steam, luckily steam has a return policy. Kickstarter doesn't have this policy, unfortunately hindsight is 20/20. Now that I'm more aware I wont use Kickstarter again.
Even if you go with the fact the backer should have been aware. That's like saying people should be aware not to walk alone at night on a street. Does this give someone the right to take advantage? Backers should be given larger protections.
These backers are not getting the risk reward like an investor, they are not getting company assets, or shares, or profit. What's funny is contract law gives the investor more rights than a backer, that's the joke.