Crowdfunded games should be limited to a big red DONATE button with zero promises or items listed.
As soon as they list tangible deliverables then they are selling stuff and should be as responsible for that delivery as any other company.
I'm only going to consider actual 501(c)(3) charitable donations for any qualifying charitable donations. Been that way long before my fiscal difficulties arose, and for that matter, the whole crowdfunding thing. Charity is one thing, with specific legal ramifications and obligations. Purchasing is entirely another, with different obligations, and even a separate subset of law. I'll leave it to the individual readers to determine for themselves what they are personally comfortable with.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
THe problem with Kickstarter is the company is getting money without having to give up anything on their part....If they went to Mark Cuban for the money, he would want a portion of the company in return.
Let the rich people worry about what they spend with their own money.
There are always scammer, and judging by the amount raised(mostly nothing much anyway). Why worry? There are far worse scam than some mmorpg kickstarter which raised 20k US$.
THe problem with Kickstarter is the company is getting money without having to give up anything on their part....If they went to Mark Cuban for the money, he would want a portion of the company in return.
Kickstarter gets paid for performing a service, which is to provide a platform that connects projects looking for crowdfunding and people considering funding them.
What they get is the revenue for providing their service and what they give up is the expenses related to conducting their service, just like any other service provider.
THe problem with Kickstarter is the company is getting money without having to give up anything on their part....If they went to Mark Cuban for the money, he would want a portion of the company in return.
Kickstarter gets paid for performing a service, which is to provide a platform that connects projects looking for crowdfunding and people considering funding them.
What they get is the revenue for providing their service and what they give up is the expenses related to conducting their service, just like any other service provider.
Sorry I should have worded that better....Not Kickstarter, but the company using Kickstarter......
I'm talking specifically about KS MMOs because many other things use KS just fine and produce the products. This includes many quite good single player games.
But the fact that those very good single player games began as KS is actually a problem that feeds the illusion that MMOs are also viable as crowdfunded projects.
It's pretty obvious by now that this isn't true and that it doesn't translate well at all to the MMO game scale. Only a handful of them have ever "launched" and none of them have launched yet as an honestly launch-ready product.
Pretty much this, most of the games I've backed have launched and they were single player games. Worked fine.
I backed a few other non-game related things and they launched as well so also fine.
I've only backed 3 mmorpg's. Project Gorgon (because I admired what a 2 person team could do) Camelot Unchained (because at the time there were all sorts of people looknig for RvRvR games so I thought sure why not) and Pantheon.
Project Gorgon is playable and I suppose it's in beta but the other two? I have no expectations and am willing to be pleasantly surprised.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of course, Star Citizen is the poster child. Basically infinite money and infinite time, and still no sellable product.
Umm.. they sold >$350,000,000 in product. May not LIKE their product... but there is no doubt that whatever they have is sellable.
No, this is actually the problem. If you choose to donate some money, or pledge, you are not guaranteed to get a product. They make that very clear on the website. If they don't produce a game, you don't get your money back.
So no, no "sales", only "pledges" for a possible future product.
That is part of the problem. By not actually releasing anything, and raking in millions in donations, the SC team probably thinks they have succeeded.
At least 90% of startups fail, and that's with real funding, investors, and a business plan.
LOL 90% fail, ya after 50 years. very misleading statement you making. First off 50% of startups make it to year 5.
Most of these startups are not failing before they actually launch. Less than 22% fail before the first year is over. What percent fail before launch? No clue but way less than 22% that's for sure.
By your definition a game that runs 49 years then closes is a failure.
At least 90% of startups fail, and that's with real funding, investors, and a business plan.
LOL 90% fail, ya after 50 years. very misleading statement you making. First off 50% of startups make it to year 5.
Most of these startups are not failing before they actually launch. Less than 22% fail before the first year is over. What percent fail before launch? No clue but way less than 22% that's for sure.
By your definition a game that runs 49 years then closes is a failure.
Actually, my experience with startups is in the high tech field. It is probably more strict than gaming. In gaming, you can release an unfinished product, but in high tech, you actually have to have a product and it has to work.
THe problem with Kickstarter is the company is getting money without having to give up anything on their part....If they went to Mark Cuban for the money, he would want a portion of the company in return.
Kickstarter gets paid for performing a service, which is to provide a platform that connects projects looking for crowdfunding and people considering funding them.
What they get is the revenue for providing their service and what they give up is the expenses related to conducting their service, just like any other service provider.
Sorry I should have worded that better....Not Kickstarter, but the company using Kickstarter......
Oh yes, I can see how what you wrote could mean that.
If they were to go to Mark Cuban for the money they would have to provide assurances, but he would be putting in far more than any individual crowdfunding contributor so the degree of risk he would be undertaking would be much higher.
I wouldn't expect the assurances provided for each to be near the same.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Kickstarters failing basically comes down to funding and people.
A AAA mmo cost 100s of millions and takes 100s of devs to complete.
Having a group say 10-20 ppl starting a kick starter with 2-10million raised is sorta not even close to what it takes.
If you seen groups of 150 veterans developers raise 150-200million then you would see alot more kick starters work.
The way it works now is you are literally "Kick Starting" the project. They have to develop something to convince investors it is worth investing in for them to have funds to take it to completion. Be that a big investor or the general population continuing to fund. Fail to get the funding the studio will fold.
Got to remember AAA studios are pulling out of MMOs. Getting a large publisher to fund a game in a "Dying Genre" when things like Mobile Games are so much more profitable and cheaper to develop is probably a really hard sell right now. The more risky the venture the more the investor will demand in return for funding.
Well you could take that a little further and if you could find even 10 high talent people with a passion to make something different they could do it unfunded and then just release it. BUT.. The world doesn't work that way like it did in the last century.
The way things are now there is not much need for another copy of the copy. Mobile games are money, SP games are money, arena games are money, MP games are money but MMO's are to RISKY and costly.
It varies. My father died from it when middle-aged. My mother lived through it when elderly. For both it sucked more than any crowd funding failure possibly could.
I understand that cancer is a frequently used word for that which people find distasteful these days, but I'll be happy when this application of it and similar falls out of style.
Evvery single one of them is a con job.They ask for free money because they know they will get it.Once a market or trend is established tons jump on that bandwagon.
If a studio seeks an investor,they don't tell them..hey how about you just give us a bunch of money and we give you nothing?Investors are not stupid,they want a share,a piece of the profits.However they see gamers as suckers,here we will give you this pixel/digital item that has an actual worth of ZERO for your hard earned money,how about that !!.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Evvery single one of them is a con job.They ask for free money because they know they will get it.Once a market or trend is established tons jump on that bandwagon.
If a studio seeks an investor,they don't tell them..hey how about you just give us a bunch of money and we give you nothing?Investors are not stupid,they want a share,a piece of the profits.However they see gamers as suckers,here we will give you this pixel/digital item that has an actual worth of ZERO for your hard earned money,how about that !!.
In a way I kind of agree. The biggest problem is that people put the cart before the horse. No one works on the basic functionality of the mechanics until they spend a ton of money on the assets OR just throw together some ideas.
The one solution with KS is to require a working functional demo before ever allowing one to put it up for money.
The answer depends on whether one is suffering from it or making millions on treating it.
This.. is a really good answer.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Of course, Star Citizen is the poster child. Basically infinite money and infinite time, and still no sellable product.
Umm.. they sold >$350,000,000 in product. May not LIKE their product... but there is no doubt that whatever they have is sellable.
No, this is actually the problem. If you choose to donate some money, or pledge, you are not guaranteed to get a product. They make that very clear on the website. If they don't produce a game, you don't get your money back.
So no, no "sales", only "pledges" for a possible future product.
That is part of the problem. By not actually releasing anything, and raking in millions in donations, the SC team probably thinks they have succeeded.
They are in fact getting something. Though the game itself isn't available, playable alpha elements of it are to their supporters.
That aspect is better than the nothing some crowdfunded games provide.
Crowd Fund MMO's remind me of a contact I just had to deal with.
Now this is irking me to no end, because the client is threating to call a lawyer, and sue, and make a huge mess, and even if they lose, this will still cost us a lot of money in legal fees, and time.
Anyway, this is also why my employer does not like dealing with private home owners, or take random jobs. With that said, the contract was simple enough, we bid on the job, with the stipulation that the bid did NOT include materials needed, it was a time and labor bid only. Since this was a renovation job, we had no idea what we were going to need to replace once we opened the walls, or how much we could salvage. No, before everyone thinks you can't time bid on that, you can. Because salvaging something and replacing something take about the same amount of labor in a longer project. So, the client signs off on this, and agrees to it. For the next 6 months the project goes as planned, we are making purchase orders about once a month, this gives minimal waste as far as materials go, and allows us to keep a tight budget. Then for reasons that I will never understand the son of the client gets involved, claims that they have connections to get the materials faster and for less then what we do. I get the run down that I am no longer allowed to make any purchases, and that all materials will be provided, so I hand off the purchase list, and go back about work. Nothing arrives.. 3 weeks.. nothing arrives. This is the last month of the contract, and for the last 3 weeks we have gotten nothing as far as materials go.
Deadline hits, we are still at the 90% mark, with what should be, as far as my guess would have been, around a $2,000 to $3,000 materials purchase list, just sitting in limbo, and we can't do a damn thing without it.
So the son comes in and demands why the project is not done, that he's not going to pay us over time, because we said it would be done and all that, all the while it was this jackass that screwed everything up.
So.. we walked off the job and they are trying to sue us for completion now, because the contract said the job would have been complete. They are playing some BS game that the son never said he would get the materials and that it was our responsibility.
Well lesson learned here, there are a lot of stupid people in the world, there are a lot of people that have no idea how things get done, and think that they can pay nothing and magically get something, and these people are sadly in charge of companies. So when a game developer tells you they can make something from nothing, just look at that, and realize this person is a moron, and never should be trusted to handle anything involving making something happen.
Just wanted to put that out there.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Kickstarters and Go Fund Me's will never see a dime from me.....Too many scams
So there is zero accountability, zero process for follow through - it's money freely given, freely kept by someone who has no obligation at all to finish the project, or even put much effort into it.
There's still the contract that Kickstarter creators sign that stipulates they have the obligation to complete the project and fulfill all rewards, and if they're unable to achieve that they must comply with a series of obligations, or else they may be subject to legal actions by backers.
Is 100 hundred years still eligible? No time is set for that "completion", so those with unfinished projects just keep on "talking the talk" instead of "walking the walk."
I don't know, but how many KS projects have seen legal action taken? How many successful ones? I also notice that it is up to backers to initiate this legal action, which costs even more money, not Kiskstarter itself.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
I see a lot of "words" that have very little bite to them. As long as a project gives updates (no proof, just words), they are fine according to KS.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Let the rich people worry about what they spend with their own money.
There are always scammer, and judging by the amount raised(mostly nothing much anyway). Why worry? There are far worse scam than some mmorpg kickstarter which raised 20k US$.
What they get is the revenue for providing their service and what they give up is the expenses related to conducting their service, just like any other service provider.
Sorry I should have worded that better....Not Kickstarter, but the company using Kickstarter......
I backed a few other non-game related things and they launched as well so also fine.
I've only backed 3 mmorpg's. Project Gorgon (because I admired what a 2 person team could do) Camelot Unchained (because at the time there were all sorts of people looknig for RvRvR games so I thought sure why not) and Pantheon.
Project Gorgon is playable and I suppose it's in beta but the other two? I have no expectations and am willing to be pleasantly surprised.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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Most of these startups are not failing before they actually launch. Less than 22% fail before the first year is over. What percent fail before launch? No clue but way less than 22% that's for sure.
By your definition a game that runs 49 years then closes is a failure.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Oh yes, I can see how what you wrote could mean that.
If they were to go to Mark Cuban for the money they would have to provide assurances, but he would be putting in far more than any individual crowdfunding contributor so the degree of risk he would be undertaking would be much higher.
I wouldn't expect the assurances provided for each to be near the same.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The way things are now there is not much need for another copy of the copy. Mobile games are money, SP games are money, arena games are money, MP games are money but MMO's are to RISKY and costly.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
It varies. My father died from it when middle-aged. My mother lived through it when elderly. For both it sucked more than any crowd funding failure possibly could.
I understand that cancer is a frequently used word for that which people find distasteful these days, but I'll be happy when this application of it and similar falls out of style.
If a studio seeks an investor,they don't tell them..hey how about you just give us a bunch of money and we give you nothing?Investors are not stupid,they want a share,a piece of the profits.However they see gamers as suckers,here we will give you this pixel/digital item that has an actual worth of ZERO for your hard earned money,how about that !!.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The one solution with KS is to require a working functional demo before ever allowing one to put it up for money.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
They are in fact getting something. Though the game itself isn't available, playable alpha elements of it are to their supporters.
That aspect is better than the nothing some crowdfunded games provide.
Now this is irking me to no end, because the client is threating to call a lawyer, and sue, and make a huge mess, and even if they lose, this will still cost us a lot of money in legal fees, and time.
Anyway, this is also why my employer does not like dealing with private home owners, or take random jobs. With that said, the contract was simple enough, we bid on the job, with the stipulation that the bid did NOT include materials needed, it was a time and labor bid only. Since this was a renovation job, we had no idea what we were going to need to replace once we opened the walls, or how much we could salvage. No, before everyone thinks you can't time bid on that, you can. Because salvaging something and replacing something take about the same amount of labor in a longer project. So, the client signs off on this, and agrees to it. For the next 6 months the project goes as planned, we are making purchase orders about once a month, this gives minimal waste as far as materials go, and allows us to keep a tight budget. Then for reasons that I will never understand the son of the client gets involved, claims that they have connections to get the materials faster and for less then what we do. I get the run down that I am no longer allowed to make any purchases, and that all materials will be provided, so I hand off the purchase list, and go back about work. Nothing arrives.. 3 weeks.. nothing arrives. This is the last month of the contract, and for the last 3 weeks we have gotten nothing as far as materials go.
Deadline hits, we are still at the 90% mark, with what should be, as far as my guess would have been, around a $2,000 to $3,000 materials purchase list, just sitting in limbo, and we can't do a damn thing without it.
So the son comes in and demands why the project is not done, that he's not going to pay us over time, because we said it would be done and all that, all the while it was this jackass that screwed everything up.
So.. we walked off the job and they are trying to sue us for completion now, because the contract said the job would have been complete. They are playing some BS game that the son never said he would get the materials and that it was our responsibility.
Well lesson learned here, there are a lot of stupid people in the world, there are a lot of people that have no idea how things get done, and think that they can pay nothing and magically get something, and these people are sadly in charge of companies. So when a game developer tells you they can make something from nothing, just look at that, and realize this person is a moron, and never should be trusted to handle anything involving making something happen.
Just wanted to put that out there.
I don't know, but how many KS projects have seen legal action taken? How many successful ones? I also notice that it is up to backers to initiate this legal action, which costs even more money, not Kiskstarter itself.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR