Have you ever played Farcry 3,4,5 ? Fighting an outpost, everything spots you and chases you down. Heavy tanks guys with shields are like terminators that don't stop until your dead, snippers that can spot you from a thousand yards that have endless aggro. If your spotted the entire camp is on alert and they search the woods in your direction for 10 minuets...... Dogs are nasty and your as good as finished if they spot you.
Why can't they make lush environment, rocks trees ditches, where you can hide, and what's chasing you may give up or forgets about you. Or the other end of the spectrum where some things never give up until your dead.
Games like the Witcher 3, and Dark Souls had assume bosses with unique fighting styles. How about less clutter and more quality in intelligence.
The games main attraction is the monsters or NPC's. Everything is scary and nothing taken lightly. Unlike everything is easy like knocking down bowling pins and on to the next frame.
Can anyone expand on this idea instead of knocking it down ?.... Be creative, lets have fun,
I think it's hard to do AI in a game because it's hard to make it fun. I think designres want something that they can control so they cna craft the gameplay more easily. Good AI also needs quality testing.
It reminds me of when they were making Everquest. I guess what happened is thye tried to make the NPCs make better decisions, but what happened is it made hte fights too cumbersome and long. I think this was an excuse becuase i think they just didn't have the funding and time to do it right. Yet there's some truth.
I think a lot of us want games to unwind not to add more stress to our daily lives. This might be one reason games tend to be this way. But conversely, we sometimes want a challenge, but that's easily solved I think by playing in PvP-oriented games like PUBG or Rocket League. Or just playing some 1-on-1 basketball with a friend IRL. Same person you're playing against is also your friend. That's healthier i think.
As hard as it can be for some of us, i include myself, is to get out more and off the pc:
Years ago, the STALKER devs were talking about an advanced AI they implemented that gave the NPCs adaptability, interests and goals. They said the problem was the NPCs would play and reach the endgame far faster than players would. It took them a bunch of work to fine tune the AI so it was just clever enough.
AI is also computationally expensive. At some point that will be less of an issue, but not sure we're near that yet.
I've always thought the game companies need to have GMs and moderators who 'play' within the game, setting up situations, and controlling aspects of the game. There are issues (favoritism, decision-making, personnel costs, etc) and I think most of the big companies are just too chintzy for it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I don't think we really need the AI to be really clever.
When mobs are just able to take few steps back and forth, and attack on sight, I think the bar is already set as low as it can be...
To witness improvement, the devs just need to add few scripts. A good example, would be Skyrim, where NPCs have a schedule. They wake up, go to work, spend time in the tavern, go home and sleep. This kind of improvement would already be awesome in a MMO.
My second point is the MMO gameplay loop itself. Right now, the goal of MMORPGS is NOT to be immersed in a living world. An MMORPG is just a glorified grinding tycoon game, in which players look for the best gear, best levels, etc. Most of the gameplay lies in the progression and not the role. Players are addict to it.
In this type of game, an efficient AI is just useless and could even be a real obstacle to the enjoyment of most people.
If you would like an AI, such as an NPC from who you steal would hire others player to kill you, or a NPC who would fall in love with your character, then we reach a level of AI that makes the world alive. Unfortunately, this is not what most players really expect or want when they hear about MMORPGs.
Not surprising when we know that some of them even confuse the word "role" with "role in trinity" instead of acting/living in a world.
You can very easily program enemies that would be completely unbeatable by any human, including the best pro gamers. It already has been done for some Quake III Arena bots over 20 years ago...
But are those fun ? Definitely not.
This thread is another example of "be careful about what you're wishing for". Most players wouldn't want NPC enemies who are as smart if not smarter than a player.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Even then, they aren't really 'smarter'. They're just closer to the code, and so much faster than Mr. Organic Quicktwitch.
As always, all games are abstractions. The abstraction of AI needs to make things more enjoyable, or they'll absolutely be detrimental. Less one note performance, more quirkiness.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Ok as for a serious answer, we don't need true AI do do what Delete is saying, which shows you how far we are from true AI. The sort of issues he is talking about are already being handled by software just not that well. True AI could be a GM for a game setting out a scenario for you and your team mates to follow that was different from anyone else playing the game while it created the environment in each new zone you went into.
Well, their is the most important factor that no one thought of. Infact it kind of haunted me as made this original post.
Many more things need to be taken into account in an mmorpg as appose to single player. Such as interacting with the AI as other players on the map are screwing up the situation at hand.
Example being: My example of dealing with a Farcry style outpost AI.... If other players come along and keep the outpost on constant alert. In fact ten players come along, this would confuse the AI and not work as intended.
This holds true with any AI situation by adding other players intervening in the middle of a situation.
No one wants perfect AI. What I think people want is something that makes it all more interesting, and something more than "ducks in a shooting gallery."
My idea has always been to give NPCs and MOBs some options, with heavily modified "rolls" for their reactions, which are based on circumstances. You add a morale score that can be modified by what happens. You add an aggression score to MOB types to differentiate a cow from a lion, etc. You give them "awareness", a memory, such as taking or giving a lot of damage over time, that modifies their morale and aggression scores, maybe even their choice of options. You give these decisions a short timer so they don't react too fast.
You start with the simplest "fight or flight" and add to that as the MOB types increases in Intelligence. Then you add basic modifiers (odds vs. the numbers or power of the opponent, things like that). When you get to MOBs with extra abilities, such as Magic, you add in the new options. Eventually, you get into groups of MOBs. Here you add some basic group tactics.
And you keep building on this in a logical way.
The goal is to have MOBs behave in logical ways, with various options, but with a chance to screw up by not doing the logical, or even doing the illogical sometimes.
Then you add in what I call "Dungeon AI." This is a map, of sorts, where it gives the MOBs new options and tactics based on surroundings. Orcs in a Dungeon, or ruins, or canyon, that "break" morale, should have an option to retreat. Not just anywhere, but deeper into the Dungeon where their fellow Orcs are. And if they still have some morale left, they might even make it a fighting retreat.
A system like this can be simple or very complex, depending on how much a game wants to include.
I personally think the problem is, that most people do not understand what Intelligence really involves.
I see all this talk about how the AI would just win. Well as anyone can tell you, if the company wanted the AI to just beat you, it would. They can process the encounter faster then any human can, and like some others suggested, just span endless super powered units to grind all opposition into paste.
The fact that some people think that is what an AI would do, shows, pretty much how little they grasp the whole idea of building a challenging or fun game world.
Keep in mind, it is not the Developers goal or plan to just beat their players, that is what casino's do, and MMO's use loot boxes to the same effect, but not the game world itself, that is supposed to be fun, and engaging, not a hopeless beatdown that you will never be able to win.
But as far as gameplay goes, they, the devs, are trying to build challenge, this means they set mob difficulty in an area, and give you a ways to win and handle the situations, but you need to work for it.
Obviously like any fixed challenge, given the massive variance of skills and abilities among individuals, some will find it stupid easy, some will find it impossibly hard, and most others will fall somewhere between those two ranges.
All an AI would do, is allow for that challenge to be tailored to the player, much like, imagine playing a game of Chess, and you set the difficulty to 6, the Program will hold to that difficulty and if you lack the skills and talents to beat it at that difficulty, it will ALWAYS Win.
AI is not setting the difficulty to 10, just for all the people that think it is.
AI would almost be like a secondary programs, like Glicko, that after a few games will be able to place your skill rating, and then set up a Match Difficulty to fit you, so that while you can win at that difficulty rating, you will need to think about it.
Now Real AI, would be like playing against another Human, who's is not some vain egotistical asshat who's sole goal in the game is to just beat your ass into the floor, gloat and piss on your dead characters corpse, but is there to provide you challenge, almost like a teacher to a student, or two people having a friendly spar, and while this does not mean always letting you win, it does mean they will, on the fly, adjust how they playout the encounter to be harder or easier, depending on your skill bracket.
Now obviously, this gets harder and harder to do, the more people you add to the pot, as the more people you add, the more things sludge together, and this ends up with the Psyducks crying it's too easy, and a the jiggly puffs crying it's too hard.
So a Real AI, would then be able to target out the individuals, picking out those that are better skilled, and place more challenge on them, while putting less on those without the capabilities to handle it.
Like if a AI controlled Lord Nagafin, they would assesses the threats real time, and target and brutally attack the best, most skilled, players who posed the greatest risk to them, and go easier on the players that did not offer as much threat to them, and this would not be based on an exploitable mechanic like DPS, as the AI would just pick out the better players, the same way a human would, with a series of observations, and note who was the greatest threats.
No doubt this would make the Psyducks feel targeted, and they would cry like little bitches, even if they were the ones that wanted the AI to start with.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I personally think the problem is, that most people do not understand what Intelligence really involves.
I see all this talk about how the AI would just win. Well as anyone can tell you, if the company wanted the AI to just beat you, it would. They can process the encounter faster then any human can, and like some others suggested, just span endless super powered units to grind all opposition into paste.
The fact that some people think that is what an AI would do, shows, pretty much how little they grasp the whole idea of building a challenging or fun game world.
Keep in mind, it is not the Developers goal or plan to just beat their players, that is what casino's do, and MMO's use loot boxes to the same effect, but not the game world itself, that is supposed to be fun, and engaging, not a hopeless beatdown that you will never be able to win.
But as far as gameplay goes, they, the devs, are trying to build challenge, this means they set mob difficulty in an area, and give you a ways to win and handle the situations, but you need to work for it.
Obviously like any fixed challenge, given the massive variance of skills and abilities among individuals, some will find it stupid easy, some will find it impossibly hard, and most others will fall somewhere between those two ranges.
All an AI would do, is allow for that challenge to be tailored to the player, much like, imagine playing a game of Chess, and you set the difficulty to 6, the Program will hold to that difficulty and if you lack the skills and talents to beat it at that difficulty, it will ALWAYS Win.
AI is not setting the difficulty to 10, just for all the people that think it is.
AI would almost be like a secondary programs, like Glicko, that after a few games will be able to place your skill rating, and then set up a Match Difficulty to fit you, so that while you can win at that difficulty rating, you will need to think about it.
Now Real AI, would be like playing against another Human, who's is not some vain egotistical asshat who's sole goal in the game is to just beat your ass into the floor, gloat and piss on your dead characters corpse, but is there to provide you challenge, almost like a teacher to a student, or two people having a friendly spar, and while this does not mean always letting you win, it does mean they will, on the fly, adjust how they playout the encounter to be harder or easier, depending on your skill bracket.
Now obviously, this gets harder and harder to do, the more people you add to the pot, as the more people you add, the more things sludge together, and this ends up with the Psyducks crying it's too easy, and a the jiggly puffs crying it's too hard.
So a Real AI, would then be able to target out the individuals, picking out those that are better skilled, and place more challenge on them, while putting less on those without the capabilities to handle it.
Like if a AI controlled Lord Nagafin, they would assesses the threats real time, and target and brutally attack the best, most skilled, players who posed the greatest risk to them, and go easier on the players that did not offer as much threat to them, and this would not be based on an exploitable mechanic like DPS, as the AI would just pick out the better players, the same way a human would, with a series of observations, and note who was the greatest threats.
No doubt this would make the Psyducks feel targeted, and they would cry like little bitches, even if they were the ones that wanted the AI to start with.
Personally, I don't want a game to modify the content to suit individual players' abilities. I want to be able to see my progress, Character wise as well as me personally, as the Player. I want to see how well I'm doing, compare it to others, and see where I weigh in on the scale. That way I can actually improve myself, and see the results, and actually get a sense of accomplishment.
I did that in UO, my first MMORPG. I wasn't a "gamer" before that, and I was well behind real gamers as a Player. But I watched, I read, and I saw where I needed to improve. I did improve, even in PvP, and got to be just as good at playing games as anyone else. Well, almost as good, maybe. lol
But I enjoy seeing other players succeed beyond the norm as much as I want to. It adds a sense that I'm really in the same world as other, real people. That's much better than being handed a modified game tailored to me, however dumb I might be. I can't feel justifiably proud in that sort of thing.
No one wants perfect AI. What I think people want is something that makes it all more interesting, and something more than "ducks in a shooting gallery."
My idea has always been to give NPCs and MOBs some options, with heavily modified "rolls" for their reactions, which are based on circumstances. You add a morale score that can be modified by what happens. You add an aggression score to MOB types to differentiate a cow from a lion, etc. You give them "awareness", a memory, such as taking or giving a lot of damage over time, that modifies their morale and aggression scores, maybe even their choice of options. You give these decisions a short timer so they don't react too fast.
You start with the simplest "fight or flight" and add to that as the MOB types increases in Intelligence. Then you add basic modifiers (odds vs. the numbers or power of the opponent, things like that). When you get to MOBs with extra abilities, such as Magic, you add in the new options. Eventually, you get into groups of MOBs. Here you add some basic group tactics.
And you keep building on this in a logical way.
The goal is to have MOBs behave in logical ways, with various options, but with a chance to screw up by not doing the logical, or even doing the illogical sometimes.
Then you add in what I call "Dungeon AI." This is a map, of sorts, where it gives the MOBs new options and tactics based on surroundings. Orcs in a Dungeon, or ruins, or canyon, that "break" morale, should have an option to retreat. Not just anywhere, but deeper into the Dungeon where their fellow Orcs are. And if they still have some morale left, they might even make it a fighting retreat.
A system like this can be simple or very complex, depending on how much a game wants to include.
Just to add, in case readers don't quite appreciate what this means... Every encounter of like kind, let's say with a band of Orcs, will play out differently, with various strategies attempted by said Orc bands. Some of those encounters will be harder, some easier, for the Plyers. But still within a general area of difficulty. Players will get chances to use their skills in different ways, for each encounter. "Heads up" game play, instead of following a "guide."
The same thing can be done for Shop NPCs, only using it as a guide for their reactions to dealing with individuals. They can like you or not, based on what you do. They can give you special deals or offer you rare "back-room specials" if they like you enough.
Same for NPCs that wander the game world, or villagers, if you help them. (i.e. "kill 10 rats" quests become a thing, rather than a fixed Quest.)
MOBs can wander the world, and move into caves, and make homes and build defensive wals, etc., if code is added with these options for their AI. So you can clear a Dungeon, and soon a new MOB set could move in, and make their own repairs and construction adjustments, and attract more MOBs, and the Game World can change instead of being locked into fixed content.
There's really no limit, depending on how much the game designers want to add.
As someone who generally likes very hard AI combat. I also don't like hard AI combat 24/7 in a game unless I only play that game in limited sessions like StarCraft 2.
Sometimes I just like to play the game and chill.
So having difficulty scaling like SC2 or ESO/WOW endgame dungeons is a good solution. Unfortunately most games don't offer any kind of difficulty scaling for a large range of its content so you are stuck only having fun in a limited subsection of content which gets boring and predictable over time.
I like some of the ideas people have put forward.
However I am not sure I like the idea of being personally targeted by AI while everyone else gets a cake walk unless there was some kind of loot/skill/reward advantage. I think being able to turn this on or off would be ideal. With that said in COOP I usually have to take on a larger role, so maybe just recognition would be sufficient hard to say without playing it.
Good AI would necessitate a completely new paradigm of thinking in terms of game design.
Almost by definition, you'd have to seriously limit the number of entities that attacked a player at once. No matter how badass an MMA fighter you are, if you have 700lbs worth of humans attacking you at the same time, you're going down. Because they're not dumb enough to line up and come at you one at a time. We're opportunists- we see someone distracted by another and we approach from the blind side.
So, unless we're talking super powers or sci-fi gadgets that provide additional strength and durability, you're fighting no more than 2-3 mobs at a time. And even, then, good luck: play a medieval brawler to see how mobs would swarm you if they were smart enough to use group tactics like we are. You can only face one direction at a time.
Good AI would necessitate a completely new paradigm of thinking in terms of game design.
Almost by definition, you'd have to seriously limit the number of entities that attacked a player at once. No matter how badass an MMA fighter you are, if you have 700lbs worth of humans attacking you at the same time, you're going down. Because they're not dumb enough to line up and come at you one at a time. We're opportunists- we see someone distracted by another and we approach from the blind side.
So, unless we're talking super powers or sci-fi gadgets that provide additional strength and durability, you're fighting no more than 2-3 mobs at a time. And even, then, good luck: play a medieval brawler to see how mobs would swarm you if they were smart enough to use group tactics like we are. You can only face one direction at a time.
Oh damn, some of the most fun I ever had was when an unexpected spawn would pop, and all of a sudden everyone is running around just trying to survive. A few time we all got wiped, but it was still a wild and hairy, and memorable, experience.
But you're right about the game being designed for it. In the above situation, in UO (a Sandbox world with lots of options), I came up with the idea of marking runes (for Gate spells) around the area, and if things got that hairy, I'd open them up to help my Guildmates escape certain death. It was wild, it was fun, and we started reaping the rewards of success against truly tough odds.
Good AI would necessitate a completely new paradigm of thinking in terms of game design.
Almost by definition, you'd have to seriously limit the number of entities that attacked a player at once. No matter how badass an MMA fighter you are, if you have 700lbs worth of humans attacking you at the same time, you're going down. Because they're not dumb enough to line up and come at you one at a time. We're opportunists- we see someone distracted by another and we approach from the blind side.
So, unless we're talking super powers or sci-fi gadgets that provide additional strength and durability, you're fighting no more than 2-3 mobs at a time. And even, then, good luck: play a medieval brawler to see how mobs would swarm you if they were smart enough to use group tactics like we are. You can only face one direction at a time.
There are more things to do with AI than just combat. Everyone seems to be focusing only on that aspect. Have the AI decide where and when to move an orc camp or a flock of sheep. Dynamically script a story line and put it in the active game, with NPCs, opponents, dialogs, locations, rewards, penalties, and time limits. Determine a destination for a dragon invasion.
Games already have pretty good combat AI. A large part of it is path-finding and target selection. You may not always see it, but there's some rudimentary AI in operation in almost every game.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Good AI would necessitate a completely new paradigm of thinking in terms of game design.
Almost by definition, you'd have to seriously limit the number of entities that attacked a player at once. No matter how badass an MMA fighter you are, if you have 700lbs worth of humans attacking you at the same time, you're going down. Because they're not dumb enough to line up and come at you one at a time. We're opportunists- we see someone distracted by another and we approach from the blind side.
So, unless we're talking super powers or sci-fi gadgets that provide additional strength and durability, you're fighting no more than 2-3 mobs at a time. And even, then, good luck: play a medieval brawler to see how mobs would swarm you if they were smart enough to use group tactics like we are. You can only face one direction at a time.
There are more things to do with AI than just combat. Everyone seems to be focusing only on that aspect. Have the AI decide where and when to move an orc camp or a flock of sheep. Dynamically script a story line and put it in the active game, with NPCs, opponents, dialogs, locations, rewards, penalties, and time limits. Determine a destination for a dragon invasion.
Games already have pretty good combat AI. A large part of it is path-finding and target selection. You may not always see it, but there's some rudimentary AI in operation in almost every game.
True enough. I focus on combat simply because the industry focuses on it to a large degree. Conflict of some sort drives most games, though this is changing.
Make people feel like a million when they are playing it.
A core part of video games many try to not think about, and often when many will use the very abstract term "fun", kinda have to avoid being specific to avoid figuring it out i guess...
If your goal is to create delusions in order to get paid, that doesnt sound so healthy, especially when gamers have often been found to have self esteem issues which is why they end up obsessing over SKILL in VIDEO GAME PVE encounters.
VIDEO GAMES, A literal thing made from ground up to be beaten, that is not a challenge, that is theater. And yeah I know, it is often very average players who obsess over skill, but that is most high end ppl.
Aside that rambling, it is quite sad that developers are afraid of even making the slightest of NPC challenging, I remember in WoW in BfA where they said they would use advanced npc algorithms to make mythic islands challenging and I started imagining hyper coordinated NPCs that would use different tactics like all 3 using high burst abilities to delete one player, coordinating consecutive CCs, 0.1 second interrupts, dot and kite tactics, all easily programmable since all they had to do is think of different actual arena strategies and add them to their script.
And instead we got dumb npcs who happen to use a few class abilities lol.
Also can we stop using the term AI when literally talking about scripts, there is no intelligence here, it is literally just an npc waiting for a que to use an ability.
Make people feel like a million when they are playing it.
A core part of video games many try to not think about, and often when many will use the very abstract term "fun", kinda have to avoid being specific to avoid figuring it out i guess...
If your goal is to create delusions in order to get paid, that doesnt sound so healthy, especially when gamers have often been found to have self esteem issues which is why they end up obsessing over SKILL in VIDEO GAME PVE encounters.
VIDEO GAMES, A literal thing made from ground up to be beaten, that is not a challenge, that is theater. And yeah I know, it is often very average players who obsess over skill, but that is most high end ppl.
Aside that rambling, it is quite sad that developers are afraid of even making the slightest of NPC challenging, I remember in WoW in BfA where they said they would use advanced npc algorithms to make mythic islands challenging and I started imagining hyper coordinated NPCs that would use different tactics like all 3 using high burst abilities to delete one player, coordinating consecutive CCs, 0.1 second interrupts, dot and kite tactics, all easily programmable since all they had to do is think of different actual arena strategies and add them to their script.
And instead we got dumb npcs who happen to use a few class abilities lol.
Also can we stop using the term AI when literally talking about scripts, there is no intelligence here, it is literally just an npc waiting for a que to use an ability.
The problem is that every gaming genre with the exception of most FPS gaming has gone from the premise it should be a challenge to todays idea that it should be a walkthrough. Difficulty in games is so rare that Dark Souls had a genre named after it.
The three main reasons are 1) system resources, 2) there really isn't any data to support that players REALLY do want more intelligent AI, and 3) it would either be just a more complex pattern or it would outskill the players, neither of which is desirable
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Make people feel like a million when they are playing it.
A core part of video games many try to not think about, and often when many will use the very abstract term "fun", kinda have to avoid being specific to avoid figuring it out i guess...
If your goal is to create delusions in order to get paid, that doesnt sound so healthy, especially when gamers have often been found to have self esteem issues which is why they end up obsessing over SKILL in VIDEO GAME PVE encounters.
VIDEO GAMES, A literal thing made from ground up to be beaten, that is not a challenge, that is theater. And yeah I know, it is often very average players who obsess over skill, but that is most high end ppl.
Aside that rambling, it is quite sad that developers are afraid of even making the slightest of NPC challenging, I remember in WoW in BfA where they said they would use advanced npc algorithms to make mythic islands challenging and I started imagining hyper coordinated NPCs that would use different tactics like all 3 using high burst abilities to delete one player, coordinating consecutive CCs, 0.1 second interrupts, dot and kite tactics, all easily programmable since all they had to do is think of different actual arena strategies and add them to their script.
And instead we got dumb npcs who happen to use a few class abilities lol.
Also can we stop using the term AI when literally talking about scripts, there is no intelligence here, it is literally just an npc waiting for a que to use an ability.
Some people take offense to this because they think you are talking about them. This is because they simply enjoy relaxing while bashing MOBs with ease. As I've tried to point this out also, and been met with that reaction, I just wanted to point out.. We Are Not Talking About That!
Even I enjoy easy content from time to time, just to relax. I usually did it while collecting resources, which can sometimes be a bit boring. I think games need that too, because we all play with different goals at different times.
But at the same time, I want a lot more interesting and challenging PvE. So... - Some easy content that also gives basic drops - And more challenging content for the bigger rewards.
Above I mentioned (in my idea for AI) Wandering MOBs and Clearing Dungeons. I always pictured many Dungeons as having a basic, low INT standard MOB for that easy content, and Wandering MOBs moving in when they find the Dungeon and setting up there, thus offering both play styles in the same dungeon.
You'd have that easy relaxation whenever a Dungeon is empty of higher MOBs, and also when a Dungeon is being played by Players who are taking out the higher MOBs (room by room), so there's plenty of that relaxation to be had. Mostly on the upper levels, the easier levels.
This is another reason that Sandbox games, with lower power gaps, works better. Because the resources you gather are always meaningful, as opposed to levelling out of worth. And the MOBs never get completely useless to fight.
Make people feel like a million when they are playing it.
A core part of video games many try to not think about, and often when many will use the very abstract term "fun", kinda have to avoid being specific to avoid figuring it out i guess...
If your goal is to create delusions in order to get paid, that doesnt sound so healthy, especially when gamers have often been found to have self esteem issues which is why they end up obsessing over SKILL in VIDEO GAME PVE encounters.
VIDEO GAMES, A literal thing made from ground up to be beaten, that is not a challenge, that is theater. And yeah I know, it is often very average players who obsess over skill, but that is most high end ppl.
Aside that rambling, it is quite sad that developers are afraid of even making the slightest of NPC challenging, I remember in WoW in BfA where they said they would use advanced npc algorithms to make mythic islands challenging and I started imagining hyper coordinated NPCs that would use different tactics like all 3 using high burst abilities to delete one player, coordinating consecutive CCs, 0.1 second interrupts, dot and kite tactics, all easily programmable since all they had to do is think of different actual arena strategies and add them to their script.
And instead we got dumb npcs who happen to use a few class abilities lol.
Also can we stop using the term AI when literally talking about scripts, there is no intelligence here, it is literally just an npc waiting for a que to use an ability.
The whole video game industry and movie industry is based on illusion.
movies use images and sound to effect you brain and emotions.
your not really driving a car when your playing a video game, the better the game is at tricking your senses the better the driving game it will be.
Ever been to one of those old time canvas bubbles where they would show a big film of a plane flying or a car driving. There would be about 40 people inside that bubble and they would all be swaying to and throw, trying to keep their balance.
We play games because we want to be entertained.
edit: I have a theory, boring games are designed by boring people.
that’s not fair to say either. It’s a really hard thing to do and requires very special people to accomplish.
I personally think the problem is, that most people do not understand what Intelligence really involves.
I see all this talk about how the AI would just win. Well as anyone can tell you, if the company wanted the AI to just beat you, it would. They can process the encounter faster then any human can, and like some others suggested, just span endless super powered units to grind all opposition into paste.
The fact that some people think that is what an AI would do, shows, pretty much how little they grasp the whole idea of building a challenging or fun game world.
Keep in mind, it is not the Developers goal or plan to just beat their players, that is what casino's do, and MMO's use loot boxes to the same effect, but not the game world itself, that is supposed to be fun, and engaging, not a hopeless beatdown that you will never be able to win.
But as far as gameplay goes, they, the devs, are trying to build challenge, this means they set mob difficulty in an area, and give you a ways to win and handle the situations, but you need to work for it.
Obviously like any fixed challenge, given the massive variance of skills and abilities among individuals, some will find it stupid easy, some will find it impossibly hard, and most others will fall somewhere between those two ranges.
All an AI would do, is allow for that challenge to be tailored to the player, much like, imagine playing a game of Chess, and you set the difficulty to 6, the Program will hold to that difficulty and if you lack the skills and talents to beat it at that difficulty, it will ALWAYS Win.
AI is not setting the difficulty to 10, just for all the people that think it is.
AI would almost be like a secondary programs, like Glicko, that after a few games will be able to place your skill rating, and then set up a Match Difficulty to fit you, so that while you can win at that difficulty rating, you will need to think about it.
Now Real AI, would be like playing against another Human, who's is not some vain egotistical asshat who's sole goal in the game is to just beat your ass into the floor, gloat and piss on your dead characters corpse, but is there to provide you challenge, almost like a teacher to a student, or two people having a friendly spar, and while this does not mean always letting you win, it does mean they will, on the fly, adjust how they playout the encounter to be harder or easier, depending on your skill bracket.
Now obviously, this gets harder and harder to do, the more people you add to the pot, as the more people you add, the more things sludge together, and this ends up with the Psyducks crying it's too easy, and a the jiggly puffs crying it's too hard.
So a Real AI, would then be able to target out the individuals, picking out those that are better skilled, and place more challenge on them, while putting less on those without the capabilities to handle it.
Like if a AI controlled Lord Nagafin, they would assesses the threats real time, and target and brutally attack the best, most skilled, players who posed the greatest risk to them, and go easier on the players that did not offer as much threat to them, and this would not be based on an exploitable mechanic like DPS, as the AI would just pick out the better players, the same way a human would, with a series of observations, and note who was the greatest threats.
No doubt this would make the Psyducks feel targeted, and they would cry like little bitches, even if they were the ones that wanted the AI to start with.
Personally, I don't want a game to modify the content to suit individual players' abilities. I want to be able to see my progress, Character wise as well as me personally, as the Player. I want to see how well I'm doing, compare it to others, and see where I weigh in on the scale. That way I can actually improve myself, and see the results, and actually get a sense of accomplishment.
I did that in UO, my first MMORPG. I wasn't a "gamer" before that, and I was well behind real gamers as a Player. But I watched, I read, and I saw where I needed to improve. I did improve, even in PvP, and got to be just as good at playing games as anyone else. Well, almost as good, maybe. lol
But I enjoy seeing other players succeed beyond the norm as much as I want to. It adds a sense that I'm really in the same world as other, real people. That's much better than being handed a modified game tailored to me, however dumb I might be. I can't feel justifiably proud in that sort of thing.
I think this is the core of the issue.
Players don't want to be continually be challenged, they want a feeling of being able to go back to older or previous content, and being able to roll it. They want to be able to farm that epic sword of ass kicking and be able to go back to a quest and beat the big bad, with far less issues and problems.
They want to be able to memorize choreographed mechanics, so that they can do the quest easier and easier.
They do not want a AI where the Big Bad changes tactics, or hell, even the normal mobs plan for their arrival and adjust accordingly to beat them down and make them struggle for that win.. every.. single.. fucking.. time.
Gamers will gravitate to the path of least resistance, this is why games like GW2, which was touted as a Casuals Playpen was such smashing successes at their start, players wanted the easy path to loot and a sense of progress, where games like Wild Star, which was advertised as a horncore's judgment style game, failed hard.
Even PvP games, players want whatever they play as to be the apex big shits. Look at Crowfall, all the these DAOC White Knights go charging in talking about how large open battles will solve all the games balance issues, and then make 10 person guilds, and wonder why the large 500 person guilds are beating their assess into the floor.
So they cry that their way playing is not giving them an advantage, and leave, because it's just too hard for them.
The end result is players don't like losing or being stonewalled.
The downsize is, they also want a game where they are special, where the content is just hard enough for them, but too hard for everyone else, so they get to be special snowflakes.
an AI, would be able to fix this, not only could it provide a solid challenge, but it could also reward loot accordingly.
Anthem had something like that set up, know what players did? They purposely failed things, to give themselves a lower skill score, so the game would give them more rewards when they did harder content.
Yah.. players don't want AI, they want something they can beat.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Personally, I don't want a game to modify the content to suit individual players' abilities. I want to be able to see my progress, Character wise as well as me personally, as the Player. I want to see how well I'm doing, compare it to others, and see where I weigh in on the scale. That way I can actually improve myself, and see the results, and actually get a sense of accomplishment.
I did that in UO, my first MMORPG. I wasn't a "gamer" before that, and I was well behind real gamers as a Player. But I watched, I read, and I saw where I needed to improve. I did improve, even in PvP, and got to be just as good at playing games as anyone else. Well, almost as good, maybe. lol
But I enjoy seeing other players succeed beyond the norm as much as I want to. It adds a sense that I'm really in the same world as other, real people. That's much better than being handed a modified game tailored to me, however dumb I might be. I can't feel justifiably proud in that sort of thing.
I think this is the core of the issue.
Players don't want to be continually be challenged, they want a feeling of being able to go back to older or previous content, and being able to roll it. They want to be able to farm that epic sword of ass kicking and be able to go back to a quest and beat the big bad, with far less issues and problems.
They want to be able to memorize choreographed mechanics, so that they can do the quest easier and easier.
They do not want a AI where the Big Bad changes tactics, or hell, even the normal mobs plan for their arrival and adjust accordingly to beat them down and make them struggle for that win.. every.. single.. fucking.. time.
Gamers will gravitate to the path of least resistance, this is why games like GW2, which was touted as a Casuals Playpen was such smashing successes at their start, players wanted the easy path to loot and a sense of progress, where games like Wild Star, which was advertised as a horncore's judgment style game, failed hard.
Even PvP games, players want whatever they play as to be the apex big shits. Look at Crowfall, all the these DAOC White Knights go charging in talking about how large open battles will solve all the games balance issues, and then make 10 person guilds, and wonder why the large 500 person guilds are beating their assess into the floor.
So they cry that their way playing is not giving them an advantage, and leave, because it's just too hard for them.
The end result is players don't like losing or being stonewalled.
The downsize is, they also want a game where they are special, where the content is just hard enough for them, but too hard for everyone else, so they get to be special snowflakes.
an AI, would be able to fix this, not only could it provide a solid challenge, but it could also reward loot accordingly.
Anthem had something like that set up, know what players did? They purposely failed things, to give themselves a lower skill score, so the game would give them more rewards when they did harder content.
Yah.. players don't want AI, they want something they can beat.
All of that is true. But there's a big qualifier in this. What we see is what's presented. We don't see gamers who want more challenge, because they are either not playing MMORPGs at all (they sure showed up for those MOBAs though), or they are silently just accepting what games we are given.
I can't prove anything. There's no way to gather numbers. But I could never accept that this is the only sorts of Gamers out there. Imagine a world where there are ONLY fast food restaurants. You could never prove that fine food establishments could work.
But people are people, and there's all kinds. You just need to give them all an outlet if you want to see them all participating.
Comments
AI is also computationally expensive. At some point that will be less of an issue, but not sure we're near that yet.
I've always thought the game companies need to have GMs and moderators who 'play' within the game, setting up situations, and controlling aspects of the game. There are issues (favoritism, decision-making, personnel costs, etc) and I think most of the big companies are just too chintzy for it.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
But are those fun ? Definitely not.
This thread is another example of "be careful about what you're wishing for". Most players wouldn't want NPC enemies who are as smart if not smarter than a player.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
As always, all games are abstractions. The abstraction of AI needs to make things more enjoyable, or they'll absolutely be detrimental. Less one note performance, more quirkiness.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
Many more things need to be taken into account in an mmorpg as appose to single player. Such as interacting with the AI as other players on the map are screwing up the situation at hand.
Example being:
My example of dealing with a Farcry style outpost AI.... If other players come along and keep the outpost on constant alert. In fact ten players come along, this would confuse the AI and not work as intended.
This holds true with any AI situation by adding other players intervening in the middle of a situation.
May need to keep the AI simple.
My idea has always been to give NPCs and MOBs some options, with heavily modified "rolls" for their reactions, which are based on circumstances.
You add a morale score that can be modified by what happens.
You add an aggression score to MOB types to differentiate a cow from a lion, etc.
You give them "awareness", a memory, such as taking or giving a lot of damage over time, that modifies their morale and aggression scores, maybe even their choice of options.
You give these decisions a short timer so they don't react too fast.
You start with the simplest "fight or flight" and add to that as the MOB types increases in Intelligence.
Then you add basic modifiers (odds vs. the numbers or power of the opponent, things like that).
When you get to MOBs with extra abilities, such as Magic, you add in the new options.
Eventually, you get into groups of MOBs. Here you add some basic group tactics.
And you keep building on this in a logical way.
The goal is to have MOBs behave in logical ways, with various options, but with a chance to screw up by not doing the logical, or even doing the illogical sometimes.
Then you add in what I call "Dungeon AI." This is a map, of sorts, where it gives the MOBs new options and tactics based on surroundings.
Orcs in a Dungeon, or ruins, or canyon, that "break" morale, should have an option to retreat. Not just anywhere, but deeper into the Dungeon where their fellow Orcs are. And if they still have some morale left, they might even make it a fighting retreat.
A system like this can be simple or very complex, depending on how much a game wants to include.
Once upon a time....
I see all this talk about how the AI would just win. Well as anyone can tell you, if the company wanted the AI to just beat you, it would. They can process the encounter faster then any human can, and like some others suggested, just span endless super powered units to grind all opposition into paste.
The fact that some people think that is what an AI would do, shows, pretty much how little they grasp the whole idea of building a challenging or fun game world.
Keep in mind, it is not the Developers goal or plan to just beat their players, that is what casino's do, and MMO's use loot boxes to the same effect, but not the game world itself, that is supposed to be fun, and engaging, not a hopeless beatdown that you will never be able to win.
But as far as gameplay goes, they, the devs, are trying to build challenge, this means they set mob difficulty in an area, and give you a ways to win and handle the situations, but you need to work for it.
Obviously like any fixed challenge, given the massive variance of skills and abilities among individuals, some will find it stupid easy, some will find it impossibly hard, and most others will fall somewhere between those two ranges.
All an AI would do, is allow for that challenge to be tailored to the player, much like, imagine playing a game of Chess, and you set the difficulty to 6, the Program will hold to that difficulty and if you lack the skills and talents to beat it at that difficulty, it will ALWAYS Win.
AI is not setting the difficulty to 10, just for all the people that think it is.
AI would almost be like a secondary programs, like Glicko, that after a few games will be able to place your skill rating, and then set up a Match Difficulty to fit you, so that while you can win at that difficulty rating, you will need to think about it.
Now Real AI, would be like playing against another Human, who's is not some vain egotistical asshat who's sole goal in the game is to just beat your ass into the floor, gloat and piss on your dead characters corpse, but is there to provide you challenge, almost like a teacher to a student, or two people having a friendly spar, and while this does not mean always letting you win, it does mean they will, on the fly, adjust how they playout the encounter to be harder or easier, depending on your skill bracket.
Now obviously, this gets harder and harder to do, the more people you add to the pot, as the more people you add, the more things sludge together, and this ends up with the Psyducks crying it's too easy, and a the jiggly puffs crying it's too hard.
So a Real AI, would then be able to target out the individuals, picking out those that are better skilled, and place more challenge on them, while putting less on those without the capabilities to handle it.
Like if a AI controlled Lord Nagafin, they would assesses the threats real time, and target and brutally attack the best, most skilled, players who posed the greatest risk to them, and go easier on the players that did not offer as much threat to them, and this would not be based on an exploitable mechanic like DPS, as the AI would just pick out the better players, the same way a human would, with a series of observations, and note who was the greatest threats.
No doubt this would make the Psyducks feel targeted, and they would cry like little bitches, even if they were the ones that wanted the AI to start with.
I want to be able to see my progress, Character wise as well as me personally, as the Player. I want to see how well I'm doing, compare it to others, and see where I weigh in on the scale. That way I can actually improve myself, and see the results, and actually get a sense of accomplishment.
I did that in UO, my first MMORPG. I wasn't a "gamer" before that, and I was well behind real gamers as a Player. But I watched, I read, and I saw where I needed to improve.
I did improve, even in PvP, and got to be just as good at playing games as anyone else.
Well, almost as good, maybe. lol
But I enjoy seeing other players succeed beyond the norm as much as I want to.
It adds a sense that I'm really in the same world as other, real people.
That's much better than being handed a modified game tailored to me, however dumb I might be. I can't feel justifiably proud in that sort of thing.
Once upon a time....
Every encounter of like kind, let's say with a band of Orcs, will play out differently, with various strategies attempted by said Orc bands.
Some of those encounters will be harder, some easier, for the Plyers. But still within a general area of difficulty.
Players will get chances to use their skills in different ways, for each encounter.
"Heads up" game play, instead of following a "guide."
The same thing can be done for Shop NPCs, only using it as a guide for their reactions to dealing with individuals. They can like you or not, based on what you do. They can give you special deals or offer you rare "back-room specials" if they like you enough.
Same for NPCs that wander the game world, or villagers, if you help them. (i.e. "kill 10 rats" quests become a thing, rather than a fixed Quest.)
MOBs can wander the world, and move into caves, and make homes and build defensive wals, etc., if code is added with these options for their AI.
So you can clear a Dungeon, and soon a new MOB set could move in, and make their own repairs and construction adjustments, and attract more MOBs, and the Game World can change instead of being locked into fixed content.
There's really no limit, depending on how much the game designers want to add.
Once upon a time....
Sometimes I just like to play the game and chill.
So having difficulty scaling like SC2 or ESO/WOW endgame dungeons is a good solution. Unfortunately most games don't offer any kind of difficulty scaling for a large range of its content so you are stuck only having fun in a limited subsection of content which gets boring and predictable over time.
I like some of the ideas people have put forward.
However I am not sure I like the idea of being personally targeted by AI while everyone else gets a cake walk unless there was some kind of loot/skill/reward advantage. I think being able to turn this on or off would be ideal. With that said in COOP I usually have to take on a larger role, so maybe just recognition would be sufficient hard to say without playing it.
Almost by definition, you'd have to seriously limit the number of entities that attacked a player at once. No matter how badass an MMA fighter you are, if you have 700lbs worth of humans attacking you at the same time, you're going down. Because they're not dumb enough to line up and come at you one at a time. We're opportunists- we see someone distracted by another and we approach from the blind side.
So, unless we're talking super powers or sci-fi gadgets that provide additional strength and durability, you're fighting no more than 2-3 mobs at a time. And even, then, good luck: play a medieval brawler to see how mobs would swarm you if they were smart enough to use group tactics like we are. You can only face one direction at a time.
But you're right about the game being designed for it.
In the above situation, in UO (a Sandbox world with lots of options), I came up with the idea of marking runes (for Gate spells) around the area, and if things got that hairy, I'd open them up to help my Guildmates escape certain death. It was wild, it was fun, and we started reaping the rewards of success against truly tough odds.
Once upon a time....
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
1) system resources,
2) there really isn't any data to support that players REALLY do want more intelligent AI, and
3) it would either be just a more complex pattern or it would outskill the players, neither of which is desirable
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
As I've tried to point this out also, and been met with that reaction, I just wanted to point out..
We Are Not Talking About That!
Even I enjoy easy content from time to time, just to relax. I usually did it while collecting resources, which can sometimes be a bit boring.
I think games need that too, because we all play with different goals at different times.
But at the same time, I want a lot more interesting and challenging PvE.
So...
- Some easy content that also gives basic drops
- And more challenging content for the bigger rewards.
Above I mentioned (in my idea for AI) Wandering MOBs and Clearing Dungeons.
I always pictured many Dungeons as having a basic, low INT standard MOB for that easy content, and Wandering MOBs moving in when they find the Dungeon and setting up there, thus offering both play styles in the same dungeon.
You'd have that easy relaxation whenever a Dungeon is empty of higher MOBs, and also when a Dungeon is being played by Players who are taking out the higher MOBs (room by room), so there's plenty of that relaxation to be had. Mostly on the upper levels, the easier levels.
This is another reason that Sandbox games, with lower power gaps, works better. Because the resources you gather are always meaningful, as opposed to levelling out of worth. And the MOBs never get completely useless to fight.
Once upon a time....
movies use images and sound to effect you brain and emotions.
your not really driving a car when your playing a video game, the better the game is at tricking your senses the better the driving game it will be.
Ever been to one of those old time canvas bubbles where they would show a big film of a plane flying or a car driving. There would be about 40 people inside that bubble and they would all be swaying to and throw, trying to keep their balance.
We play games because we want to be entertained.
edit: I have a theory, boring games are designed by boring people.
that’s not fair to say either. It’s a really hard thing to do and requires very special people to accomplish.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Players don't want to be continually be challenged, they want a feeling of being able to go back to older or previous content, and being able to roll it. They want to be able to farm that epic sword of ass kicking and be able to go back to a quest and beat the big bad, with far less issues and problems.
They want to be able to memorize choreographed mechanics, so that they can do the quest easier and easier.
They do not want a AI where the Big Bad changes tactics, or hell, even the normal mobs plan for their arrival and adjust accordingly to beat them down and make them struggle for that win.. every.. single.. fucking.. time.
Gamers will gravitate to the path of least resistance, this is why games like GW2, which was touted as a Casuals Playpen was such smashing successes at their start, players wanted the easy path to loot and a sense of progress, where games like Wild Star, which was advertised as a horncore's judgment style game, failed hard.
Even PvP games, players want whatever they play as to be the apex big shits. Look at Crowfall, all the these DAOC White Knights go charging in talking about how large open battles will solve all the games balance issues, and then make 10 person guilds, and wonder why the large 500 person guilds are beating their assess into the floor.
So they cry that their way playing is not giving them an advantage, and leave, because it's just too hard for them.
The end result is players don't like losing or being stonewalled.
The downsize is, they also want a game where they are special, where the content is just hard enough for them, but too hard for everyone else, so they get to be special snowflakes.
an AI, would be able to fix this, not only could it provide a solid challenge, but it could also reward loot accordingly.
Anthem had something like that set up, know what players did? They purposely failed things, to give themselves a lower skill score, so the game would give them more rewards when they did harder content.
Yah.. players don't want AI, they want something they can beat.
But there's a big qualifier in this.
What we see is what's presented.
We don't see gamers who want more challenge, because they are either not playing MMORPGs at all (they sure showed up for those MOBAs though), or they are silently just accepting what games we are given.
I can't prove anything. There's no way to gather numbers. But I could never accept that this is the only sorts of Gamers out there.
Imagine a world where there are ONLY fast food restaurants. You could never prove that fine food establishments could work.
But people are people, and there's all kinds. You just need to give them all an outlet if you want to see them all participating.
Once upon a time....