You can throw poo at each other all day long but in the end the market has spoken.
That doesn't mean someone cannot make a new PvP title work - but open world, full loot, significant vertical progression (1) isn't a winning formula.
Someone mentioned BDO at one point; however, in that game PvP doesn't start until level 50 and you can get there in 2hrs. (at least according to the videos I've seen on it). That isn't significant vertical progression, that is the most trivial progression I've ever encountered.
No need to argue this, keep pumping out those games and I'll continue to scratch my head as they fail.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Significant Vertical Progression: A long grind where a veteran player can end up being untouchable by a new player.
WoW PvP servers were just as popular as the PvE servers. Lineage 2 had the same PvP system that Ashes is implementing. Archage same thing. BDO may take you 2 hours now idk but when it came out it took several weeks. These are not failed games.
Theres no full loot in Ashes. You can only loot resources. If you kill someone with them not fighting back you get huge penalties so it wont happen that often.
Since release and till the day I was still playing (late WotLk) all PvP guilds were on PvP servers. Of course we were all annoyed by mass ganks upon raiding times since people knew about top guilds raiding schedules and always tried to kill us by the entrance. But we never could move to a PvE server because everyone knew that there was no PvE progression there. It was like only solo players and casuals played on PvE servers.
When I went back for Legion it had changed though so I'm not sure when that happened exactly.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
pvp in mmorpg's is a joke... i have never liked it, always lacks balance...
those pvp inclined should stick to games where power balance is much easier achieved... your fps shooters etc...
You're not alone in feeling that way. There have been countless posts in this forum over the years from people like you that have never gotten that there is supposed to be a difference between shooters / BRs and MMORPG PvP.
Shooters / BRs: even playing field start with disposable, one battleground gear. Very suitable for solo play.
MMORPG PvP: uneven playing field with levels and long-lasting gear and upgrades. Meant for group play.
Good individual balance in 1 is pretty well automatic and built into the game. Good individual balance in 2 is spotty and never, ever achieved.
People who whine about balance in 2 are just letting us know that they are players who play 1 and don't know what to do with themselves when they try their hand at 2. Some clue in eventually. Some never do.
Where is #2 working right now that isn't totally niche? (1)
The 'Group Play' band-aid doesn't fix anything if one group of veterans runs into a group of new players. Acting like the players "just don't get it" is a hand wave, IMHO. Millions and millions of players but only the 300 who play Mortal Online understand the genre?
NOTES -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Full Loot, Open World, Significant Vertical Progression PvP
It seems like you're trying to say something but I have no clue what that is.
MMO PvP is just not about 1v1 "duel me bro" and then whining because the guy who beat you has better gear or is higher level or his class is OP and needs a nerf.
As to where group play happens, it happens in any and all MMOs that have RvR where the norm is to be in a group - rather large groups at times. ESO Cyrodiil, GW2, DAoC, etc. It even happens in New World in the 50 v 50 Wars that are the main feature of the game loop. You did play a lot of Wars in NW before you quit didn't you? I have so I think I can speak to how group PvP is different than playing to level 20 in the open world with your PvP flag on.
Of course all of those group play PvP situations are dismissed as zerg fests by the same people whining constantly about poor 1v1 balance in MMOs. The people who don't get it, you know? Hand wave indeed lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
pvp in mmorpg's is a joke... i have never liked it, always lacks balance...
those pvp inclined should stick to games where power balance is much easier achieved... your fps shooters etc...
You're not alone in feeling that way. There have been countless posts in this forum over the years from people like you that have never gotten that there is supposed to be a difference between shooters / BRs and MMORPG PvP.
Shooters / BRs: even playing field start with disposable, one battleground gear. Very suitable for solo play.
MMORPG PvP: uneven playing field with levels and long-lasting gear and upgrades. Meant for group play.
Good individual balance in 1 is pretty well automatic and built into the game. Good individual balance in 2 is spotty and never, ever achieved.
People who whine about balance in 2 are just letting us know that they are players who play 1 and don't know what to do with themselves when they try their hand at 2. Some clue in eventually. Some never do.
Where is #2 working right now that isn't totally niche? (1)
The 'Group Play' band-aid doesn't fix anything if one group of veterans runs into a group of new players. Acting like the players "just don't get it" is a hand wave, IMHO. Millions and millions of players but only the 300 who play Mortal Online understand the genre?
NOTES -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Full Loot, Open World, Significant Vertical Progression PvP
It seems like you're trying to say something but I have no clue what that is.
MMO PvP is just not about 1v1 "duel me bro" and then whining because the guy who beat you has better gear or is higher level or his class is OP and needs a nerf.
As to where group play happens, it happens in any and all MMOs that have RvR where the norm is to be in a group - rather large groups at times. ESO Cyrodiil, GW2, DAoC, etc. It even happens in New World in the 50 v 50 Wars that are the main feature of the game loop. You did play a lot of Wars in NW before you quit didn't you? I have so I think I can speak to how group PvP is different than playing to level 20 in the open world with your PvP flag on.
Of course all of those group play PvP situations are dismissed as zerg fests by the same people whining constantly about poor 1v1 balance in MMOs. The people who don't get it, you know? Hand wave indeed lol.
I agree with much of what you write here.
My point was that many who claim [insert title here] is an example of a successful open world, full loot, PvP game either don't know what they're talking about or we're using entirely different definitions for the terms. The latter being the most likely.
Using BDO as an example - if you're protected until level 50 and can get near the level cap (soft cap, I know) in less than a day then that isn't significant vertical progression (time investment). That is closer to a Battlefield PvP experience than a MMORPG PvP experience. Anyone can handle being PK'd for a single day.
That doesn't mean the BDO model isn't successful, it just means that it isn't what I'm talking about when using the terms open world, full loot, PvP with significant vertical progression.
You're right about the grouping stuff.
I don't do open world, full loot, PvP games because I like my PvE and PvP separate. I've also never been fond of 15 minute PvP battlegrounds.
My favorite PvP by far is 24/7 persistent, segregated zones with enough objectives to enable strategic and tactical group planning and execution. In other words, RvR when it's done well.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
pvp in mmorpg's is a joke... i have never liked it, always lacks balance...
those pvp inclined should stick to games where power balance is much easier achieved... your fps shooters etc...
You're not alone in feeling that way. There have been countless posts in this forum over the years from people like you that have never gotten that there is supposed to be a difference between shooters / BRs and MMORPG PvP.
Shooters / BRs: even playing field start with disposable, one battleground gear. Very suitable for solo play.
MMORPG PvP: uneven playing field with levels and long-lasting gear and upgrades. Meant for group play.
Good individual balance in 1 is pretty well automatic and built into the game. Good individual balance in 2 is spotty and never, ever achieved.
People who whine about balance in 2 are just letting us know that they are players who play 1 and don't know what to do with themselves when they try their hand at 2. Some clue in eventually. Some never do.
Where is #2 working right now that isn't totally niche? (1)
The 'Group Play' band-aid doesn't fix anything if one group of veterans runs into a group of new players. Acting like the players "just don't get it" is a hand wave, IMHO. Millions and millions of players but only the 300 who play Mortal Online understand the genre?
NOTES -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Full Loot, Open World, Significant Vertical Progression PvP
It seems like you're trying to say something but I have no clue what that is.
MMO PvP is just not about 1v1 "duel me bro" and then whining because the guy who beat you has better gear or is higher level or his class is OP and needs a nerf.
As to where group play happens, it happens in any and all MMOs that have RvR where the norm is to be in a group - rather large groups at times. ESO Cyrodiil, GW2, DAoC, etc. It even happens in New World in the 50 v 50 Wars that are the main feature of the game loop. You did play a lot of Wars in NW before you quit didn't you? I have so I think I can speak to how group PvP is different than playing to level 20 in the open world with your PvP flag on.
Of course all of those group play PvP situations are dismissed as zerg fests by the same people whining constantly about poor 1v1 balance in MMOs. The people who don't get it, you know? Hand wave indeed lol.
No disrespect intended, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say now either other than you disagree and don't like their opinion.
In Tzervo's example of vertical power in Albion they used a 5 v 1 example to show that even god-geared min/maxers aren't immune to being taken down. The idea that it takes 5 moderately geared people to take down one person only reinforces that zero vertical competitive pvp is not for me anymore.
And group scale pvp does have a zerg problem in most games, vertical or otherwise. It is that way in LotRO Ettenmoors. It has been complained about in Cyrodiil. In New World balling up on points and rolling forts. DAoC, despite having anti-zerg builds, still had issues with that. GW2 zergballs are a thing despite it supposedly being largely horizontal (it isn't in my opinion).
Even in large scale horizontal games like Battlefield bumrush zergballs are still a thing. These are somewhat countered by time limited power ups that disperse a zerg, but don't prevent it in between.
All I see Warg saying is that there are some inherent flaws to vertical power pvp with "time in" gear gaps being a large contributing factor. You yourself have mentioned in the past that low level PvP in ESO is the best for, what I inferred at the time, are much the same reasons.
We can argue all day who is right wrong, how popular (or not) game X is, and what we like or don't, but there are obviously issues and what has Ashes communicated to address these common problems? In context of the thread I don't see Ashes even touching on any of these issues in many their talks to sell new people expensive access bundles.
Even worse is the thought that they will go the route of New World and dig in deep with dungeons and raids as a way to hook people on the treadmill with gear progression and PvP as an afterthought. The last thing I think the MMO genre needs is more dungeon/raid gear grinds.
So what I'm saying is, despite its presence in other games to a larger or smaller degree, what is Ashes going to do about them (vertical power gaps and zergs)?
I can definitely agree that I'm not sold on Ashes' style of PvP no matter how many times they emphasize penalties for being a dick in the open world. I've heard that before.
As to power gaps and zergs - that is the nature of what I consider to be good MMO PvP. I go into RvR games with full knowledge that this is what I'm getting into and enjoy the strategic and tactical opportunities group PvP (AKA zergs) bring to the table.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
pvp in mmorpg's is a joke... i have never liked it, always lacks balance...
those pvp inclined should stick to games where power balance is much easier achieved... your fps shooters etc...
You're not alone in feeling that way. There have been countless posts in this forum over the years from people like you that have never gotten that there is supposed to be a difference between shooters / BRs and MMORPG PvP.
Shooters / BRs: even playing field start with disposable, one battleground gear. Very suitable for solo play.
MMORPG PvP: uneven playing field with levels and long-lasting gear and upgrades. Meant for group play.
Good individual balance in 1 is pretty well automatic and built into the game. Good individual balance in 2 is spotty and never, ever achieved.
People who whine about balance in 2 are just letting us know that they are players who play 1 and don't know what to do with themselves when they try their hand at 2. Some clue in eventually. Some never do.
Where is #2 working right now that isn't totally niche? (1)
The 'Group Play' band-aid doesn't fix anything if one group of veterans runs into a group of new players. Acting like the players "just don't get it" is a hand wave, IMHO. Millions and millions of players but only the 300 who play Mortal Online understand the genre?
NOTES -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Full Loot, Open World, Significant Vertical Progression PvP
It seems like you're trying to say something but I have no clue what that is.
MMO PvP is just not about 1v1 "duel me bro" and then whining because the guy who beat you has better gear or is higher level or his class is OP and needs a nerf.
As to where group play happens, it happens in any and all MMOs that have RvR where the norm is to be in a group - rather large groups at times. ESO Cyrodiil, GW2, DAoC, etc. It even happens in New World in the 50 v 50 Wars that are the main feature of the game loop. You did play a lot of Wars in NW before you quit didn't you? I have so I think I can speak to how group PvP is different than playing to level 20 in the open world with your PvP flag on.
Of course all of those group play PvP situations are dismissed as zerg fests by the same people whining constantly about poor 1v1 balance in MMOs. The people who don't get it, you know? Hand wave indeed lol.
I agree with much of what you write here.
My point was that many who claim [insert title here] is an example of a successful open world, full loot, PvP game either don't know what they're talking about or we're using entirely different definitions for the terms. The latter being the most likely.
Using BDO as an example - if you're protected until level 50 and can get near the level cap (soft cap, I know) in less than a day then that isn't significant vertical progression (time investment). That is closer to a Battlefield PvP experience than a MMORPG PvP experience. Anyone can handle being PK'd for a single day.
That doesn't mean the BDO model isn't successful, it just means that it isn't what I'm talking about when using the terms open world, full loot, PvP with significant vertical progression.
You're right about the grouping stuff.
I don't do open world, full loot, PvP games because I like my PvE and PvP separate. I've also never been fond of 15 minute PvP battlegrounds.
My favorite PvP by far is 24/7 persistent, segregated zones with enough objectives to enable strategic and tactical group planning and execution. In other words, RvR when it's done well.
They have the added benefit of largely releasing developers from having to develop the zone with large-scale or numerous PvE content, meaning the zones themselves contribute to countering zergs and such (if well-designed).
Definitely the most enjoyable system I've experienced to date for MMORPG PvP.
I can definitely agree that I'm not sold on Ashes' style of PvP no matter how many times they emphasize penalties for being a dick in the open world. I've heard that before.
Same.
I just pointed out on the Fractured forum that horizontal progression with a karma system presents its own problems. That is, if you can be competitive in PvP in a matter of hours then a karma system is irrelevant because upon death you can just delete and reroll.
For example, they talk about a player being put in jail for 48 real hours. Hell, if I can be competitive at PvP in 4 hrs. I'll just delete the jailed character and reroll. (I'm still learning about the game, so they may have a fix in place for this...)
Not enough time is spent testing ideas for ways to circumvent the justice systems. You can bet if you don't test your systems the players most certainly will.
Intrepid has said they plan for it to take 45 days to get max level in Ashes. That's not including all the other progression planned for the game or acquiring items. No one is going to be deleting their character and rerolling because their character is corrupted.
I remember playing Lineage 2 with the same system and rarely ever running into anyone marked for PvP.
I can definitely agree that I'm not sold on Ashes' style of PvP no matter how many times they emphasize penalties for being a dick in the open world. I've heard that before.
Same.
I just pointed out on the Fractured forum that horizontal progression with a karma system presents its own problems. That is, if you can be competitive in PvP in a matter of hours then a karma system is irrelevant because upon death you can just delete and reroll.
For example, they talk about a player being put in jail for 48 real hours. Hell, if I can be competitive at PvP in 4 hrs. I'll just delete the jailed character and reroll. (I'm still learning about the game, so they may have a fix in place for this...)
Not enough time is spent testing ideas for ways to circumvent the justice systems. You can bet if you don't test your systems the players most certainly will.
Age of Wushu had jail prison and beheadings. Prison was 5 hours must remain online. Beheading was for serial killers 24 hours online in the gallows then beheaded at noon. People could even throw tomatoes at them. After the beheading the player would have a 3 day 30% debuff, it could be cured but yeah.
The system worked wonders for forming server culture and deterring random killing.
I can definitely agree that I'm not sold on Ashes' style of PvP no matter how many times they emphasize penalties for being a dick in the open world. I've heard that before.
Same.
I just pointed out on the Fractured forum that horizontal progression with a karma system presents its own problems. That is, if you can be competitive in PvP in a matter of hours then a karma system is irrelevant because upon death you can just delete and reroll.
For example, they talk about a player being put in jail for 48 real hours. Hell, if I can be competitive at PvP in 4 hrs. I'll just delete the jailed character and reroll. (I'm still learning about the game, so they may have a fix in place for this...)
Not enough time is spent testing ideas for ways to circumvent the justice systems. You can bet if you don't test your systems the players most certainly will.
Age of Wushu had jail prison and beheadings. Prison was 5 hours must remain online. Beheading was for serial killers 24 hours online in the gallows then beheaded at noon. People could even throw tomatoes at them. After the beheading the player would have a 3 day 30% debuff, it could be cured but yeah.
The system worked wonders for forming server culture and deterring random killing.
Imagine after the Third time ganking newbies in the newbie zone, you went to trial.
A jury of your peers. We have victims, we might have witnesses and we have the evidence recorded by the server.
Imagine the jury finding your character guilty and sentencing your character to be executed into oblivion
I wonder if that would take care of any ganking issues?
I can definitely agree that I'm not sold on Ashes' style of PvP no matter how many times they emphasize penalties for being a dick in the open world. I've heard that before.
Same.
I just pointed out on the Fractured forum that horizontal progression with a karma system presents its own problems. That is, if you can be competitive in PvP in a matter of hours then a karma system is irrelevant because upon death you can just delete and reroll.
For example, they talk about a player being put in jail for 48 real hours. Hell, if I can be competitive at PvP in 4 hrs. I'll just delete the jailed character and reroll. (I'm still learning about the game, so they may have a fix in place for this...)
Not enough time is spent testing ideas for ways to circumvent the justice systems. You can bet if you don't test your systems the players most certainly will.
Age of Wushu had jail prison and beheadings. Prison was 5 hours must remain online. Beheading was for serial killers 24 hours online in the gallows then beheaded at noon. People could even throw tomatoes at them. After the beheading the player would have a 3 day 30% debuff, it could be cured but yeah.
The system worked wonders for forming server culture and deterring random killing.
Imagine after the Third time ganking newbies in the newbie zone, you went to trial.
A jury of your peers. We have victims, we might have witnesses and we have the evidence recorded by the server.
Imagine the jury finding your character guilty and sentencing your character to be executed into oblivion
I wonder if that would take care of any ganking issues?
See, the thing is, ganking can only happen if the developers sanction it.
Since gankers are paying customers too the devs have to decide how far to reign them in or not, CCP walks this delicate tightrope regularly.
Too much either way and they risk driving off customers, hence the struggle for gaining a more mainstream audience, many who won't put up with being prey for some length of time until they can catch up.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Man I swear pve nerds ruined the genre. Crying to remove pvp because they're bad, meanwhile asking for new, creative fancy AI that can kill them lmao.
Why? Because mobs don't teabag you when you die. So damn sensitive, so easily offended, want to make make believe in a fantasy game. Wanting pretend in their pretend...
While you are flexing after play fighting in a fantasy world. Very impressive.
Man I swear pve nerds ruined the genre. Crying to remove pvp because they're bad, meanwhile asking for new, creative fancy AI that can kill them lmao.
Why? Because mobs don't teabag you when you die. So damn sensitive, so easily offended, want to make make believe in a fantasy game. Wanting pretend in their pretend...
While you are flexing after play fighting in a fantasy world. Very impressive.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You got killed in front of people and the murderer gets the shackles and the spike. (more spikes for more witnesses). May be it would foster grouping...
I wonder if permadeath was a thing in MMOs, how ganking would be. I guess gankers would be hunted to permadeath...
@delete5230 - The only thing I can recommend is not to let your desperation force you into greater gaming misery. I dislike PvP, so I won’t be playing this game. I want a story, cooperation, and the ability to experience the content unhindered by other people (almost impossible to do even in PvE-only games).
Not all PvP players are bad and not all PvE players are good. What you have is a completely acceptable gameplay preference - so, unfortunately, we have to stick to titles that align. I get that they are either old, incomplete, bad, or few-and-far between, but such is our lot right now - it feels hopeless, I know.
It might even be best to carefully vote with your wallet; don’t let any company collect from you if their game contains mechanics that you simply cannot tolerate. Communicate your preferences, speak up and let your voice be heard, sure…but it’s fruitless to take your frustrations out on the PvP crowd (I dare say they’re literally waiting to engage you on the topic).
Sometimes I wonder if these companies merely need to lure everyone in to pay for the game’s development and then just quickly bank on the competitive whales that remain behind (by gating prestige and PvP competence behind cash shop items). That’s not a reflection on this game, I don’t know if/how the cash shop or PvP will work.
I guess if I were highly competitive and had oodles of disposable money, I’d probably come off my wallet to get an edge over others (looks or performance). I’d be getting exploited, sure, but I’d be winning - and some people will stop at nothing to do so. If there’s one thing I know it’s that if a company can make a profit in this way, they’ll shamelessly exploit to until we smarten up. We’d have to realize that by “winning” in this way, we’re actually losing in the most immature way possible, and I simply won’t be holding my breath - just look at the mobile game market.
We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody. But it is an important reciprocal relationship between the content that's related to PvE and the content that's related to PvP and they feed off of each other. They're catalysts for change: Their progression, their development. It's things that people can value when they see something earned and they see something lost. That elicits an emotional response from the player: That they've invested time in to either succeed or fail; and PvP allows for that element to be introduced into gameplay. And we're very clear that is our objective: That risk versus reward relationship, that achievement-based mentality. Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay.– Steven sharif
We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody. But it is an important reciprocal relationship between the content that's related to PvE and the content that's related to PvP and they feed off of each other. They're catalysts for change: Their progression, their development. It's things that people can value when they see something earned and they see something lost. That elicits an emotional response from the player: That they've invested time in to either succeed or fail; and PvP allows for that element to be introduced into gameplay. And we're very clear that is our objective: That risk versus reward relationship, that achievement-based mentality. Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay.– Steven sharif
I'm sorry.
But I've seen developers struggle for balance in PvE only games and in PvP only games and yet Ashes is going to combine all that, sprinkle that hot mess with territory control, and pull out a pefect system?
Played a1 and wasn't a gank fest. It was non nda and likely on youtube. Everyone was chill not killing at spawn. And after that even in the wilds.
What I was rly going by was like wow pvp has gear for pvp. So if u went in with pve gear...because u needed to pvp in wow before getting said gear. So you had mad lvl of a bracket being a twink. Maxed out in pvp gear.
Think of it with this way: But with only pvx gear. Everyone has the same tools. No need to grind and die to twinks when you don't have any pvp gear. While they do. So you should be able to defend yourself enough that you may survive long enough to a 5-10lvl higher player, till help arrives. Ie ur in discord and friend can ride mount to save after mining some ore nearby.
There was no meta build. But it was older combat system vs the current. So I'll see in a2.
I don't see an exploit that someone mentioned if a non flagged/green moved and took the hit for a red. Most will likely use tab over action. You need to manually try to attack and may have a warning, etc. Before damaging another green. Maybe I'm wrong but pretty sure just fooling around swinging won't make you into combat with another. It's again been awhile since a1. And can change by a2. Coming 2024.
dsvice said: So you should be able to defend yourself enough that you may survive long enough to a 5-10lvl higher player, till help arrives. Ie ur in discord and friend can ride mount to save after mining some ore nearby.
No problem with having hope or wanting things to work out but IMHO this paragraph is a fantasy.
Well MMORPG is supposed to be a social experience, no? If someone is stronger but some levels higher you may, if the rolls correct, could win. Otherwise it may not just be a friend. Course you'll have a tougher time with a higher lvl that has better stats. Someone sees a higher lvl is trying to kill a lower lvl, and is passing by can help out.
So seeing someone being bullied and are passing by, you just ignore it?
Is that what you do say in wow world pvp, eso, cod, Minecraft, so on.
Not that hard to start fighting back to defend yourself. If u don't then will lose more loot. But fight back and lose less. The other will go corrupt if you don't fight back and die. It's a thrill to then get rewarded for defeating someone who wanted to kill you. They may drop a mat you needed. But if you didn't fight back n die..
Then starts the corruption system - the killer starts to lose stats. Won't be able to kill players over and over, lower levels will even be able to defeat and get the higher lvl PKer gear. Not all the gear. Will appear on the map for bounty hunters. So the PKer cannot hide away.
Well MMORPG is supposed to be a social experience, no? If someone is stronger but some levels higher you may, if the rolls correct, could win. Otherwise it may not just be a friend. Course you'll have a tougher time with a higher lvl that has better stats. Someone sees a higher lvl is trying to kill a lower lvl, and is passing by can help out.
So seeing someone being bullied and are passing by, you just ignore it?
Is that what you do say in wow world pvp, eso, cod, Minecraft, so on.
Not that hard to start fighting back to defend yourself. If u don't then will lose more loot. But fight back and lose less. The other will go corrupt if you don't fight back and die. It's a thrill to then get rewarded for defeating someone who wanted to kill you. They may drop a mat you needed. But if you didn't fight back n die..
Then starts the corruption system - the killer starts to lose stats. Won't be able to kill players over and over, lower levels will even be able to defeat and get the higher lvl PKer gear. Not all the gear. Will appear on the map for bounty hunters. So the PKer cannot hide away.
The social experience will be tossing Schadenfreude and "I told you so" at them. Everyone knows the only thing players drive a world to is ruin. If they don't get scammed first, that is. The game encourages big guilds, so it will inevitably be a zerg of sweaty players killing others with things that doesn't even resemble gameplay anymore, while driving smear campaigns against other big guilds accusing them of exploits/cheating to win anything at all, while doing exactly that.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Thats cool man you do that. Not sure why the PvE guys always have to come into PvP MMO forums to complain about shit that isn't going to change. This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
I've played most MMOs out there and to this day I don't reminisce about killing a raid boss for the 100th time for loot with higher numbers that will only be replaced with another patch with my friends. We talk about games like Shadowbane where we banded together to siege a big guilds castle.
We don't need another game where you log in once a week to raid log. Plenty of those already.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Thats cool man you do that. Not sure why the PvE guys always have to come into PvP MMO forums to complain about shit that isn't going to change. This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
I think they do it because developers change games pretty fast when 80% of the player base leaves. We've seen this happen before.
It's nice to say things like "if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out", but I'm thinking the developers will make any change they must in order to be a success. I won't be buying the game because the developers strike me as naive - I hope it works out, but my money is on:
Large initial population.
Gankers drive people from the game.
With no vicitms, gankers leave the game. (1)
Developer back-pedals to be more PvE friendly.
Gankers blame PvE crowd for ruining the game.
Gankers move onto next clueless developer to poo all over that title.
I'd be happy to be wrong. I'm not - either the restrictions on PvP will be very strict or it will not succeed.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Since only 10% of players can be in the top 10% (duh), about 10% of the gankers will drive off the other 90% of gankers. This will occur after the PvE players have left. You have this deluded population of wannabe tough guys who cannot handle the heat when it comes for them.
Comments
When I went back for Legion it had changed though so I'm not sure when that happened exactly.
MMO PvP is just not about 1v1 "duel me bro" and then whining because the guy who beat you has better gear or is higher level or his class is OP and needs a nerf.
As to where group play happens, it happens in any and all MMOs that have RvR where the norm is to be in a group - rather large groups at times. ESO Cyrodiil, GW2, DAoC, etc. It even happens in New World in the 50 v 50 Wars that are the main feature of the game loop. You did play a lot of Wars in NW before you quit didn't you? I have so I think I can speak to how group PvP is different than playing to level 20 in the open world with your PvP flag on.
Of course all of those group play PvP situations are dismissed as zerg fests by the same people whining constantly about poor 1v1 balance in MMOs. The people who don't get it, you know? Hand wave indeed lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
My favorite PvP by far is 24/7 persistent, segregated zones with enough objectives to enable strategic and tactical group planning and execution. In other words, RvR when it's done well.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
As to power gaps and zergs - that is the nature of what I consider to be good MMO PvP. I go into RvR games with full knowledge that this is what I'm getting into and enjoy the strategic and tactical opportunities group PvP (AKA zergs) bring to the table.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Definitely the most enjoyable system I've experienced to date for MMORPG PvP.
Intrepid has said they plan for it to take 45 days to get max level in Ashes. That's not including all the other progression planned for the game or acquiring items. No one is going to be deleting their character and rerolling because their character is corrupted.
I remember playing Lineage 2 with the same system and rarely ever running into anyone marked for PvP.
The system worked wonders for forming server culture and deterring random killing.
A jury of your peers. We have victims, we might have witnesses and we have the evidence recorded by the server.
Imagine the jury finding your character guilty and sentencing your character to be executed into oblivion
I wonder if that would take care of any ganking issues?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Since gankers are paying customers too the devs have to decide how far to reign them in or not, CCP walks this delicate tightrope regularly.
Too much either way and they risk driving off customers, hence the struggle for gaining a more mainstream audience, many who won't put up with being prey for some length of time until they can catch up.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While you are flexing after play fighting in a fantasy world. Very impressive.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nobody wants to suffer an asshole, no matter the context.
Not all PvP players are bad and not all PvE players are good. What you have is a completely acceptable gameplay preference - so, unfortunately, we have to stick to titles that align. I get that they are either old, incomplete, bad, or few-and-far between, but such is our lot right now - it feels hopeless, I know.
It might even be best to carefully vote with your wallet; don’t let any company collect from you if their game contains mechanics that you simply cannot tolerate. Communicate your preferences, speak up and let your voice be heard, sure…but it’s fruitless to take your frustrations out on the PvP crowd (I dare say they’re literally waiting to engage you on the topic).
Sometimes I wonder if these companies merely need to lure everyone in to pay for the game’s development and then just quickly bank on the competitive whales that remain behind (by gating prestige and PvP competence behind cash shop items). That’s not a reflection on this game, I don’t know if/how the cash shop or PvP will work.
I guess if I were highly competitive and had oodles of disposable money, I’d probably come off my wallet to get an edge over others (looks or performance). I’d be getting exploited, sure, but I’d be winning - and some people will stop at nothing to do so. If there’s one thing I know it’s that if a company can make a profit in this way, they’ll shamelessly exploit to until we smarten up. We’d have to realize that by “winning” in this way, we’re actually losing in the most immature way possible, and I simply won’t be holding my breath - just look at the mobile game market.
The glorious ashes wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Gear
We're very clear with our objective and philosophy on the game and we understand that they may not appeal to everybody. But it is an important reciprocal relationship between the content that's related to PvE and the content that's related to PvP and they feed off of each other. They're catalysts for change: Their progression, their development. It's things that people can value when they see something earned and they see something lost. That elicits an emotional response from the player: That they've invested time in to either succeed or fail; and PvP allows for that element to be introduced into gameplay. And we're very clear that is our objective: That risk versus reward relationship, that achievement-based mentality. Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay.– Steven sharif
But I've seen developers struggle for balance in PvE only games and in PvP only games and yet Ashes is going to combine all that, sprinkle that hot mess with territory control, and pull out a pefect system?
That is ambitious, for sure.
What I was rly going by was like wow pvp has gear for pvp. So if u went in with pve gear...because u needed to pvp in wow before getting said gear. So you had mad lvl of a bracket being a twink. Maxed out in pvp gear.
Think of it with this way: But with only pvx gear. Everyone has the same tools. No need to grind and die to twinks when you don't have any pvp gear. While they do. So you should be able to defend yourself enough that you may survive long enough to a 5-10lvl higher player, till help arrives. Ie ur in discord and friend can ride mount to save after mining some ore nearby.
There was no meta build. But it was older combat system vs the current. So I'll see in a2.
I don't see an exploit that someone mentioned if a non flagged/green moved and took the hit for a red. Most will likely use tab over action. You need to manually try to attack and may have a warning, etc. Before damaging another green. Maybe I'm wrong but pretty sure just fooling around swinging won't make you into combat with another. It's again been awhile since a1. And can change by a2. Coming 2024.
So seeing someone being bullied and are passing by, you just ignore it?
Is that what you do say in wow world pvp, eso, cod, Minecraft, so on.
Not that hard to start fighting back to defend yourself. If u don't then will lose more loot. But fight back and lose less. The other will go corrupt if you don't fight back and die. It's a thrill to then get rewarded for defeating someone who wanted to kill you. They may drop a mat you needed. But if you didn't fight back n die..
Then starts the corruption system - the killer starts to lose stats. Won't be able to kill players over and over, lower levels will even be able to defeat and get the higher lvl PKer gear. Not all the gear. Will appear on the map for bounty hunters. So the PKer cannot hide away.
The game encourages big guilds, so it will inevitably be a zerg of sweaty players killing others with things that doesn't even resemble gameplay anymore, while driving smear campaigns against other big guilds accusing them of exploits/cheating to win anything at all, while doing exactly that.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
I've played most MMOs out there and to this day I don't reminisce about killing a raid boss for the 100th time for loot with higher numbers that will only be replaced with another patch with my friends. We talk about games like Shadowbane where we banded together to siege a big guilds castle.
We don't need another game where you log in once a week to raid log. Plenty of those already.
It's nice to say things like "if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out", but I'm thinking the developers will make any change they must in order to be a success. I won't be buying the game because the developers strike me as naive - I hope it works out, but my money is on:
- Large initial population.
- Gankers drive people from the game.
- With no vicitms, gankers leave the game. (1)
- Developer back-pedals to be more PvE friendly.
- Gankers blame PvE crowd for ruining the game.
- Gankers move onto next clueless developer to poo all over that title.
I'd be happy to be wrong.I'm not - either the restrictions on PvP will be very strict or it will not succeed.
NOTES
----------------------------------------------------------------
1: Since only 10% of players can be in the top 10% (duh), about 10% of the gankers will drive off the other 90% of gankers. This will occur after the PvE players have left. You have this deluded population of wannabe tough guys who cannot handle the heat when it comes for them.