As the discussion went more into the direction of Star Citizen and many of it's game design choices aren't well known by most I recommend this video (from the same guy who made the one about crime I just posted above):
What IS Star Citizen? - Explaining The Game's Vision
In the context of this discussion though, I do not think SC advertised itself as a fully-PVE game at any iteration, A to T.
They also didn't advertise as a fully open PvP game either, which it apparently is turning out to be. I mean it would be like EVE fans selling all the fun PvE and then downplaying the PvP by talking about all the safe zones.
This is really the risk, like was pointed out above, of not advertising your target audience before selling your game. Many people bought into SC because of the previous single player titles and the space flight sim game they had experienced.
So, part of the problem is that people are learning now whether they're actually the target audience or not.
The real big part of the PvP problem for SC is that it doesn't look well thought out. I watched a YouTube video of a streamer who used to do videos for this site (can't remember his name). He was wanted (or whatever status SC puts on gankers) and still walked into a space station unfettered and started ganking people (again) while they were at trade terminals, storage, and the like, just for the lulz and with no repercussions.
There were no systems in place to check for arms or player status. This is supposed to be a science fiction game, yet the world is designed as if law and order aren't a consideration or there isn't even technology to address this.
That sort of completely unrestricted play may appeal to some people, but the most successful PvP oriented games have structure and boundaries so people can at least carry out mundane tasks. That is not "going to be" a problem. It already is one. We'll see how that all goes down.
Only they were always clear about it having OW PVP. Going as far back as 2014:
But essentially the slider just sort of allows you to effect the kind of people that will stream into your space as you're traveling across the galaxy, and hopefully that will mean if you want to play a more Privateer style game, and be just by yourself, you can have that experience. If you want to play with your friends and co-op against AI, that can happen. But also if you want to mix it up with other players, that will happen too. And you know, we'll have some other stuff. I mean I know there's always the question where people are always worried that's an exploit if you can change it dynamically, and we're not going to let you change it dynamically as you're flying around. So it's kind of a setting you have as you fly around, and as I said, there are some areas that are kind of no-holds-barred, and those areas will also have some really cool stuff in, so I'm hoping at some point you'll get brave enough and you get good enough and you'll go to some of these areas to get this one particular kind of weapon that you can't get elsewhere or salvage an alien wreck, but you have to take some risks to get there. So it's a sort of risk-reward basis. So I hope that answered the question on the PvP slider.
And that's from a quick google with me having zero research on SC since I am not interested on it until they announce a launch date. The mentions I catch around always had me assume that it was advertized as a game with OW PVP, well now we also have the verification.
Our resident experts can correct me if I got something wrong.
Are items bind on pickup? If not, having regionally specific items still won't get players to try something they don't like (PvP). They'll just buy the item from other players.
I see Babs is hijacking another thread with ad bot spam. I could almost be cool with Star Citizen just existing if wasn't for the annoying indoctrination spamage by a few of the players here. It just makes it seem
culty and makes me hate it more. Speak your peace and move on; no one
gives a poo what quests or ships are cool, and we all are already aware of what the game is. Just f'n stop, please. Open door doesn't mean come in and poop all over the place with pictures and videos.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Sshhh. We mustn't interrupt yet another dev studio making the same exact mistakes as a dozen studios before them.
As we all know, the only alternative to this is no more video games. Ever.
But essentially the slider just sort of allows you to effect the kind of people that will stream into your space as you're traveling across the galaxy, and hopefully that will mean if you want to play a more Privateer style game, and be just by yourself, you can have that experience. If you want to play with your friends and co-op against AI, that can happen. But also if you want to mix it up with other players, that will happen too. And you know, we'll have some other stuff. I mean I know there's always the question where people are always worried that's an exploit if you can change it dynamically, and we're not going to let you change it dynamically as you're flying around. So it's kind of a setting you have as you fly around, and as I said, there are some areas that are kind of no-holds-barred, and those areas will also have some really cool stuff in, so I'm hoping at some point you'll get brave enough and you get good enough and you'll go to some of these areas to get this one particular kind of weapon that you can't get elsewhere or salvage an alien wreck, but you have to take some risks to get there. So it's a sort of risk-reward basis. So I hope that answered the question on the PvP slider.
And that's from a quick google with me having zero research on SC since I am not interested on it until they announce a launch date. The mentions I catch around always had me assume that it was advertized as a game with OW PVP, well now we also have the verification.
Our resident experts can correct me if I got something wrong.
Are items bind on pickup? If not, having regionally specific items still won't get players to try something they don't like (PvP). They'll just buy the item from other players.
No idea. Like I said, I am not familiar with SC, but I have heard multiple times that it is going to have OW PVP. Games with OW PVP (especially full- or partial-loot ones) never have item binding to my knowledge. And indeed, in EVE and Albion, people buy and sell high end gear (looted or crafted) all the time.
My worry with it would be that I don't think anyone realistically believes SC won't be awash in RMT buying and selling of anything and everything players can get their hands on in-game.
The system Chris describes will only be abused by such markets. Heavily.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Sshhh. We mustn't interrupt yet another dev studio making the same exact mistakes as a dozen studios before them.
As we all know, the only alternative to this is no more video games. Ever.
Don't worry, Roberts has amply shown he never learns from his mistakes.
Last time I looked at the SC prison system, there was this one way to break out. A way that will doubtless be formalized and followed by all the miscreants. Until some other miscreants form a gank crew to take out the escapees. Or perhaps extort them for money for letting them go. Or perhaps getting a bounty from the authorities for capturing escaping prisoners. I can see a commercial system of folks going to jail so their buddies can get the bounty for turning them in, and then a bounty for 'capturing' them as they escape.
And oddly, the escape tunnels will never be blocked or otherwise fixed.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
It is selecting an audience from the perspective of the game maker. Whether the selection made is problematic depends on the perspective of the potential player.
Then the problem is the player not recognizing the game is simply not meant for them, not the selection. The player was never a potential player in the first place and their perspective is irrelevant.
"Silence of the Lambs is a problematic movie. It is too scary for me."
It is a problem of the player, up until enough are dissuaded the game can't maintain a sustainable population. Then it is the problem of the provider.
That point may never come in SC, keeping such a perspective irrelevant perpetually. Then again it may and we'll see how resolute they are in their vision then.
As we are talking about SC I was wondering what they are doing to avoid duping and other player shenanigans, as I understand they have the same base gaming engine as New World which they have just modified?
As we are talking about SC I was wondering what they are doing to avoid duping and other player shenanigans, as I understand they have the same base gaming engine as New World which they have just modified?
Star Citizen appears to be a game of great complexity, as such it will let likely provide a field day for hackers, exploiters, Botters and RMT shops who won't reveal their full hand until post launch as currently there's nothing to permanently gain in doing so.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As we are talking about SC I was wondering what they are doing to avoid duping and other player shenanigans, as I understand they have the same base gaming engine as New World which they have just modified?
Star Citizen appears to be a game of great complexity, as such it will let likely provide a field day for hackers, exploiters, Botters and RMT shops who won't reveal their full hand until post launch as currently there's nothing to permanently gain in doing so.
If they do, I hope all the backers remember: *they can actually flush toilets in this game.* Totes worth it!
I find it ironic that were talking so much about Star Citizen, and this post is named people will play garbage..... anyone else catch that
In game speak I put star citizen the second life category, those people create their own fun with it. You either hate sims or love them. One mans garbo is another mans treasure.
In lifestyle speak it's just like that hobo train hopping Youtuber guy. I couldn't live that lifestyle, and many feel the same. It's entertaining to watch and criticize, but at least he doesn't try to convince you that his lifestyle is the future of rail travel.
I find it ironic that were talking so much about Star Citizen, and this post is named people will play garbage..... anyone else catch that
I find it ironic that people who judge other peoples' tastes are bitter and have the least amount of fun in the genre.
I think it is fine if someone likes a game that I don't, but spamming games at me until I like them isn't going to work. If someone is having fun in a game that's awesome and I'm so happy for them, but my son just 'pop his pants' a few posts ago so go easy on 'im.
Well, I have almost 7 thousand post, all good ones, I right on every single one. So I can't be all that bad......Oops...... pooped my pants again be right back.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
Give them better mission rewards. PKers take their rewards from the cargo holds of others- they've no need for mission rewards.
Scale mission rewards up based on length of time without a crime. You could even scale rewards up based on "lawful" points gained by arresting or taking down criminals. This is still a bandaid, though.
You want to create a virtual world where rules can reliably be enforced outside of hard coding? Force customers to tie their accounts to their RL identities. A permanent ban means *you* don't get to play anymore.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
You could have special powers granted by the gods (or some super computer or whatever) that are earned through play, but criminals can't use. Have theirs "turned off", so to speak. But with multiple Character slots, and loot worth taking, you'll never stop those players from running at least one criminal.
I'll say this, you all "can't handle the truth!" I've said it repeatedly over the years and no one seems to believe it. You need to have real, in-game punishment for the criminal Characters. Punish the Character with lost stats and ability (levels or skills) so that they can never be as powerful as the good guys, as long as they are doing whatever it is (usually PKing). I'm not about to write out the details again. Done too many times and ignored.
Give them better mission rewards. PKers take their rewards from the cargo holds of others- they've no need for mission rewards.
Scale mission rewards up based on length of time without a crime. You could even scale rewards up based on "lawful" points gained by arresting or taking down criminals. This is still a bandaid, though.
You want to create a virtual world where rules can reliably be enforced outside of hard coding? Force customers to tie their accounts to their RL identities. A permanent ban means *you* don't get to play anymore.
You could have special powers granted by the gods (or some super computer or whatever) that are earned through play, but criminals can't use. Have theirs "turned off", so to speak. But with multiple Character slots, and loot worth taking, you'll never stop those players from running at least one criminal.
I'll say this, you all "can't handle the truth!" I've said it repeatedly over the years and no one seems to believe it. You need to have real, in-game punishment for the criminal Characters. Punish the Character with lost stats and ability (levels or skills) so that they can never be as powerful as the good guys, as long as they are doing whatever it is (usually PKing). I'm not about to write out the details again. Done too many times and ignored.
See, two good ideas on this forum. But what game has done (or is attempting to do) these kinds of things? Gankers get bounties on them, leading to more PvP. A bounty is a game mechanism that drives PvP.
I was thinking more about game mechanisms that reward the PvE player. Individual character rewards don't really accomplish that. A reward system is already expected, and doesn't necessarily improve the game play. Heaven help us if we try to figure out ways to encourage people to RP.
I've always thought it odd that people will pay money to watch a concert in real life, but there's never anyone available to sit in the tavern and listen to some bard. Our collective ideas of entertainment seem a bit off kilter.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Give them better mission rewards. PKers take their rewards from the cargo holds of others- they've no need for mission rewards.
Scale mission rewards up based on length of time without a crime. You could even scale rewards up based on "lawful" points gained by arresting or taking down criminals. This is still a bandaid, though.
You want to create a virtual world where rules can reliably be enforced outside of hard coding? Force customers to tie their accounts to their RL identities. A permanent ban means *you* don't get to play anymore.
You could have special powers granted by the gods (or some super computer or whatever) that are earned through play, but criminals can't use. Have theirs "turned off", so to speak. But with multiple Character slots, and loot worth taking, you'll never stop those players from running at least one criminal.
I'll say this, you all "can't handle the truth!" I've said it repeatedly over the years and no one seems to believe it. You need to have real, in-game punishment for the criminal Characters. Punish the Character with lost stats and ability (levels or skills) so that they can never be as powerful as the good guys, as long as they are doing whatever it is (usually PKing). I'm not about to write out the details again. Done too many times and ignored.
See, two good ideas on this forum. But what game has done (or is attempting to do) these kinds of things? Gankers get bounties on them, leading to more PvP. A bounty is a game mechanism that drives PvP.
I was thinking more about game mechanisms that reward the PvE player. Individual character rewards don't really accomplish that. A reward system is already expected, and doesn't necessarily improve the game play. Heaven help us if we try to figure out ways to encourage people to RP.
I've always thought it odd that people will pay money to watch a concert in real life, but there's never anyone available to sit in the tavern and listen to some bard. Our collective ideas of entertainment seem a bit off kilter.
Again, the true fix is to tie game accounts to actual identities, then create a system where your character's reputation and in-game status can't be so easily circumvented.
Then, you can simply create de facto rules in response to player behavior to police the game world. "We noticed players trading bounties repeatedly to quickly get rich while avoiding the intent of the justice system. Continuing to do so is considered abuse of game systems and is punishable by a ban."
Voila, players either get with it, or they get gone, and they can't just buy another account or start a new one.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
Or compensate the "victim" of the crime?
As I'm often on the receiving end I've never seen a decent punishment scheme that greatly exceeded potential rewards for a life of crime.
I'm thinking permadeath might well suit Star Citizen.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
You could have special powers granted by the gods (or some super computer or whatever) that are earned through play, but criminals can't use. Have theirs "turned off", so to speak. But with multiple Character slots, and loot worth taking, you'll never stop those players from running at least one criminal.
I'll say this, you all "can't handle the truth!" I've said it repeatedly over the years and no one seems to believe it. You need to have real, in-game punishment for the criminal Characters. Punish the Character with lost stats and ability (levels or skills) so that they can never be as powerful as the good guys, as long as they are doing whatever it is (usually PKing). I'm not about to write out the details again. Done too many times and ignored.
They will just kill newbs, where their levels can still easily win. They want to do this either way, most of the time its not even about money its about ruining someone's day. So they can dance on their grave.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
I would say let the PVE player be able to to randomly obtain a buff while PVEing, that lasts a reasonable amount of time. The buff is invisible to others. This buff will activate when attacked by a player and will automatically call down guards that will defend and easily kill the perpetrator. The person who attacked will be lootable.
Buff only works if you are attacked first.
Yeah I would love to hear the risk vs reward argument from these griefers for this mechanic.
PVE'ers have risk because they have to PVE without this buff to get the buff. Griefers have risk, because they don't know when they attack whether or not the person is being guarded. So everyone has a chance for reward, and equivalent risk.
So as a griefer, when you see that lonely miner, ask yourself is it going to be worth it.
From the huge drop off we've seen in active players after the first month in recent games I'd agree that yes some people will play any old garbage to get their MMO fix. One caveat though, they will play tat garbage only briefly. And it seems that modern companies are banking on this idea so they get a quick recoup of development costs, plus a tidy profit, and then can just move on to creating the next half baked gaming idea.
However, I don't actually blame the gaming companies. Gamers, especially MMORPG players have always been a notoriously fanatic and addictable lot. There was a very good reason EQ came to be refereed to as Ever Crack.
"Meanwhile as soon as you commit a severe crime (PK or lawfull npc
killing) a mission is generated to all the players in the server that
pays a nice sum for your bounty."
This was tried befroe in the past...it fails miserably...Why?...Because players would get the bounty then have another of their accounts or friends go claim the bounty...It doesn't work.
Fundamentally, a bounty attracts people to the criminal. Which gives the criminal exactly what they are looking for -- another fight. That's essentially rewarding the bad behavior.
That may be fine (I'm not for that), but what is the opposite? How does the game reward the law abiding players?
You could have special powers granted by the gods (or some super computer or whatever) that are earned through play, but criminals can't use. Have theirs "turned off", so to speak. But with multiple Character slots, and loot worth taking, you'll never stop those players from running at least one criminal.
I'll say this, you all "can't handle the truth!" I've said it repeatedly over the years and no one seems to believe it. You need to have real, in-game punishment for the criminal Characters. Punish the Character with lost stats and ability (levels or skills) so that they can never be as powerful as the good guys, as long as they are doing whatever it is (usually PKing). I'm not about to write out the details again. Done too many times and ignored.
They will just kill newbs, where their levels can still easily win. They want to do this either way, most of the time its not even about money its about ruining someone's day. So they can dance on their grave.
I knew one serious mean ass PKer way back in Eve and Shadowbane. We actually became friends because I was one of the few people who didn't get pissed off after being ganked by him and his crew. People would get psychotically outraged and shit talk in chat after he killed them. One time one person went off that the only reason these PKers acted like this was because they were making up for being picked on in primary school. His answer was simple yet stunning. He said, "Not at all, were merely never stopped being the bigger kids that pushed the littler kids off of the swing sets." Kind of says it all really.
Comments
What IS Star Citizen? - Explaining The Game's Vision
As we all know, the only alternative to this is no more video games. Ever.
The system Chris describes will only be abused by such markets. Heavily.
Last time I looked at the SC prison system, there was this one way to break out. A way that will doubtless be formalized and followed by all the miscreants. Until some other miscreants form a gank crew to take out the escapees. Or perhaps extort them for money for letting them go. Or perhaps getting a bounty from the authorities for capturing escaping prisoners. I can see a commercial system of folks going to jail so their buddies can get the bounty for turning them in, and then a bounty for 'capturing' them as they escape.
And oddly, the escape tunnels will never be blocked or otherwise fixed.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
It is a problem of the player, up until enough are dissuaded the game can't maintain a sustainable population. Then it is the problem of the provider.
That point may never come in SC, keeping such a perspective irrelevant perpetually. Then again it may and we'll see how resolute they are in their vision then.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have almost 7 thousand post, all good ones, I right on every single one. So I can't be all that bad......Oops...... pooped my pants again be right back.
This is why there is only one Delete, everyone take note.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
There are good sides in everything
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Scale mission rewards up based on length of time without a crime. You could even scale rewards up based on "lawful" points gained by arresting or taking down criminals. This is still a bandaid, though.
You want to create a virtual world where rules can reliably be enforced outside of hard coding? Force customers to tie their accounts to their RL identities. A permanent ban means *you* don't get to play anymore.
But with multiple Character slots, and loot worth taking, you'll never stop those players from running at least one criminal.
I'll say this, you all "can't handle the truth!"
I've said it repeatedly over the years and no one seems to believe it. You need to have real, in-game punishment for the criminal Characters. Punish the Character with lost stats and ability (levels or skills) so that they can never be as powerful as the good guys, as long as they are doing whatever it is (usually PKing).
I'm not about to write out the details again. Done too many times and ignored.
Once upon a time....
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Then, you can simply create de facto rules in response to player behavior to police the game world. "We noticed players trading bounties repeatedly to quickly get rich while avoiding the intent of the justice system. Continuing to do so is considered abuse of game systems and is punishable by a ban."
Voila, players either get with it, or they get gone, and they can't just buy another account or start a new one.
As I'm often on the receiving end I've never seen a decent punishment scheme that greatly exceeded potential rewards for a life of crime.
I'm thinking permadeath might well suit Star Citizen.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would say let the PVE player be able to to randomly obtain a buff while PVEing, that lasts a reasonable amount of time. The buff is invisible to others. This buff will activate when attacked by a player and will automatically call down guards that will defend and easily kill the perpetrator. The person who attacked will be lootable.
Buff only works if you are attacked first.
Yeah I would love to hear the risk vs reward argument from these griefers for this mechanic.
PVE'ers have risk because they have to PVE without this buff to get the buff.
Griefers have risk, because they don't know when they attack whether or not the person is being guarded. So everyone has a chance for reward, and equivalent risk.
So as a griefer, when you see that lonely miner, ask yourself is it going to be worth it.
I knew one serious mean ass PKer way back in Eve and Shadowbane. We actually became friends because I was one of the few people who didn't get pissed off after being ganked by him and his crew. People would get psychotically outraged and shit talk in chat after he killed them. One time one person went off that the only reason these PKers acted like this was because they were making up for being picked on in primary school. His answer was simple yet stunning. He said, "Not at all, were merely never stopped being the bigger kids that pushed the littler kids off of the swing sets." Kind of says it all really.