Originally posted by deleted4545 I am afraid that you have chosen to be gay, and yes all the gay people I know have said that they did not chose to be gay they were born that way, but after many discussions on the matter in the end they all end up agreeing that they did choose to be gay. As far as me saying that gays can not have sex I did not say that, what I said was that mens bodies are not designed for that type of sex, it is a proven fact of the health problems that gay men develop due to the sort of sex, ranging from many numerous things that invovles the mans bum hole having things put into it that should never be in there in the first place. Please dont try to sell me on some made up BS, and base things opn facts an not on un proven facts.
Believe me, I have not chosen to be gay. In fact, the rational side of my brain fought against me, telling me that my thoughts were wrong etc... until I surrendered to my feelings and accepted what I am, accepting that it's neither something bad nor good, it's just me, the way I am, just like being blue or brown eye-coloured it's just another thing that distinguishes you. So if nature wanted me to be that way, what's wrong with it? and don't tell me sex among men is wrong/not natural as long as you accept sex between men’s and woman’s, cos oral sex is practiced by everyone since ancient times, same with anal sex, and did you know anal sex highly pleasant for all men’s as the prostate gland is near there? don’t you find it to be quite natural?
There are some christians who think for themselves. They're called Bible scholars. And the vast majority of them will tell you that the untranslated original texts of the Bible do not condemn homosexuality.
Ahh yes - "Bible Scholar".
I'm assuming you speak of the same, "Bible Scholars", that have the cojones to twist, and deceive - Even to the extent of making it seem like Jesus had no problem with pedophilia -- Trying to use the case of the Roman Commander, by saying his servant was really his young/boy lover, and since Jesus healed the servant - Which they tried to distort to make it as the Roman Commanders' catamite - That he had no problem with it. But yet the irony is laid in place for the fact that the only condemnation/judgment that Christ put forth in the gospels wasn't murder, or any other brazen 10 commandments style sin, but Child molesters/Pedophiliacs.
Now I'm sure there will be some "Bible Scholars", that would find some way to speak enough rubbish to make it seem almost like a rebut, or maybe even some of them knows that even our society - although not much - has limits - although I'm sure that will change eventually; after all, the bar keeps on being lowered, sooner more likely than later, there will be no bar.
Having some Pharisee twisting the Bible into accordance of what you may personally believe, does not make them Bible Scholars; only liars.
That's right, bring pedophilia into the argument. It's always an emotion evoker isn't it? Not only does it use slide of hand to distract from the main topic, but it also gets people to equate an undisputable wrong with what's up for debate.
And as far as you calling something rubbish. That's your opinion. And your going to use your opinion to decide which of the interpretations of the Bible you choose to believe, just as much as I am (not that I choose any of the interpretations, I really don't care about the Bible). Who's to say who's right? Nobody. Because there really isn't anyone who can tell you who is alive today, now is there? Whoever originally wrote it isn't here. Just the same as we have trouble with "original intent" with our Constitution the same is going to be even more true for the Bible.
But for someone who doesn't choose to follow the Bible this is all a mute topic anyway. So, to make laws manipulating people's behavior and choosing who gets what rights based on Biblical scripture while living in a secular society is not going to work. If you don't like that then move to a theocratic society.
Originally posted by reavo 5.) Equating a homosexual being born the way they are with a child molester is another old trick. A child molester goes after children. Children are not consenting adults. They don't say it's okay to have sex with me. You're just trying to use something derogatory to bring emotion into the argument. Homosexuals are in a loving consensual adult relationships. That is not what child molesters and children are doing.
In this culture that may be of what a pedophile usually is. But to truely juggle the philosophy, one must look at all cultures, past and present.
And, in past cultures, pederasty(cultural pedophilia) was a "norm" to them, was consensual(in some, maybe most), and even almost essential for the growing of child, to adulthood.
P.S. What is an adult? That as well changes for every culture.
I'm not looking at cultures of past and present. Therefore, I'm not juggling anything. I'm talking about the reality of here and now. If you want to bring up past behaviors and try to equate them to behaviors of today then you are again using slide of hand techniques to distract from the current topic.
There are laws in each country, and each state of the U.S., that tell you the age of consent. These laws tell who is an adult and able to legally consent to sex. If you don't agree with that age then you can petition legislation to be changed. We are a nation of laws. And those are what we go by.
Pedophilia in our society is not sex between two consenting adults. "Adult", as a I said, is spelled out by age in the laws of that nation or state.
Homosexuals are not committing pedophilia and are not in any way the equivelant of this behavior. So quit trying to use this to bring peoples emotion into the debate. It may work for people with low education levels, but for most people who know how to reason and think your technique is easily apparent.
Originally posted by ValiumSummer Originally posted by lardmouth Why not just drop marriage from govermental (federal or state) oversight? That is, no recognition of marriages by goverment agencies at any level. Boom, nothing to debate anymore.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
By allowing a gay couple to be recognized by the government you would only be changing who is recognized by contractual law. There wouldn't have to be any tax laws changed. The ones that apply now would simply carry over to the new recognized contracts.
I saw a show the other day about gay couples that were seperated during 9-11. Some of them had been together for years. Some even had wills for their material possessions. The show followed them along their lives after their loved one died.
Even though some of them had wills, the families of their partner successfully challenged the wills and won.
Then there was the case of charities that were setup to help people that had lost their loved ones in 9-11. These couples had setup two person households. Shared in the decision making about what houses to buy, property that they owned, etc, and all the bills that came along with that. The same way that married couples do. The married couples of course got the charitable benefits to help them out with their lives so they didn't have to lose their homes and such. But the gay people who were left behind got nothing.
Some of the gay people left behind even lost their personal possessions because even though the will stated that the possessions would be given to their partners, some states didn't recognize this as legal. So the states actually took the property away from them!!!
This is the reason our laws need to be changed. Anyone who tells you that a civil union or a will can stand up in court is wrong. These cases showed that. These peoples lives were not only horribly changed, just as they were for married couples, but they then had to go up against the system in order to protect their belongings and defend their so called legal contracts.
After watching that show I was more angry than I have been in a long time. I couldn't believe that a society could be so cruel to people and treat them the way these people were treated. Everyone was rallying around the couples that were married to help them out, yet here were these couples that had established lives together and were just as much a part of the community but were being turned away and having their stuff taken away from them.
Originally posted by ValiumSummer Originally posted by lardmouth Why not just drop marriage from govermental (federal or state) oversight? That is, no recognition of marriages by goverment agencies at any level. Boom, nothing to debate anymore.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
Nyah, the world isn't doomed. It's just changing.
We're ironing out problems from the past that people used to avoid. Heck, we're still having to wade our way through people trying to take us back to before the age of reason. What do you think it was like for people going through the introduction of that "radical" new thought process? Thank our creator that we just had people like the U.S. founding fathers to stand out and implement policy based on new philosophies.
It will sort itself out. I have a lot of faith in the human race. Things are changing very rapidly around us and we're having to deal with it using our slowly evolving brains. But we'll figure it out.
You wouldn't want to go back to the 1500's would you? The last 500 years have been amazing. And we're witnessing some extraordinary things in our lifetime. Up until about 500 years ago progress was for the most part static, but it's coming incredibly fast now. Mostly because we are shedding off our old beliefs. And as we shed them off isn't it apparent what happens? Progress!
Originally posted by korvass Originally posted by Hardcorebass
Who has the same vision on this? or are here gays on the site? don't be shy to say it! It will help.
It will help what exactly?
I think he meant help to establish a first hand point of view to add more to the debate. Sometimes people discuss minorities without the minorities even being there to give their own opinion about things. That leaves a lot up to assumption and can easily lead to misconceptions about other people.
Does anyone in this discussion actually think they are going to change anyones minds? Seriously! The people that think Homosexuality is a sin are convinced it is a sin based on their religious views and anyone that is gay or who support homosexuals are not going to all of a suddent say OMG! Being gay really is a sin it must be cause SO and so on MMORPG.com says it is. Those that support gays or are gay themselves are going to support homosexuality no matter what is said in this thread and those that think that homosexuality is a sin based on their religious views will not be swayed by a gay person or one who supports them.
homosexuality is nothing more than out right perversion. come on.... butt sex? man on man oral sex? women on women? friends sucking each other... gimme a break.. love? gay love? yeah right, total perversion thats what it is.
Originally posted by wookiee homosexuality is nothing more than out right perversion. come on.... butt sex? man on man oral sex? women on women? friends sucking each other... gimme a break.. love? gay love? yeah right, total perversion thats what it is.
I don't honestly now what to say.. except that that made me laugh... alot
Originally posted by osiloa Does anyone in this discussion actually think they are going to change anyones minds? Seriously! The people that think Homosexuality is a sin are convinced it is a sin based on their religious views and anyone that is gay or who support homosexuals are not going to all of a suddent say OMG! Being gay really is a sin it must be cause SO and so on MMORPG.com says it is. Those that support gays or are gay themselves are going to support homosexuality no matter what is said in this thread and those that think that homosexuality is a sin based on their religious views will not be swayed by a gay person or one who supports them.
Actually, I was against homosexuality until I was in the military (believe it or not). I always thought that gays were these little girly acting men that liked to wear womens clothing.
Then when I got in the military I became really good friends with a guy in my A school. He was one of the coolest guys I've ever met. Everyone in class liked him and we all went out and did stuff together. He was like the one guy in our class that everyone got along with.
Then somehow it got around in our class about two months after we got started that he was gay. I asked him if it was true one day and he said yeah. Everyone in the class knew, but we didn't tell and nobody even cared really. He didn't act gay and was a good friend so it changed my whole opinion 180 degrees.
Ever since then I have made other friends that are gay. A lot of them I did meet in the military. You would be surprised how many gay people actually serve. And for the most part people don't give a shit (except your occasional red-neck recruit). The gays that are in the military serve just as proud as the next soldier and I haven't met one that I wouldn't trust my life with.
That's right, bring pedophilia into the argument. It's always an emotion evoker isn't it? Not only does it use slide of hand to distract from the main topic, but it also gets people to equate an undisputable wrong with what's up for debate.
Wait, wait, it's undisputable? Hrm...You know, that's what use to be thought of homosexuality...
And as far as you calling something rubbish. That's your opinion.
Maybe, what can I say. When someone spouts BS, I have an inclination - an opinion, if you will - to say it's rubbish.
And your going to use your opinion to decide which of the interpretations of the Bible you choose to believe,
Uhh...I'll take the literal translation for 500, Alex.
just as much as I am (not that I choose any of the interpretations, I really don't care about the Bible). Who's to say who's right? Nobody.
It isn't Alien hieroglyphics. There's bound to be maybe a discprecancy here and there - Such as the historical counting of armies or what not, differing from 400 to four thousand, etc. - But a continual theme that has proven time and time again to hold up to the challenges these "Scholars" place forth; well, I don't see that as opinion, or "interpretation", but it just comes down to what are the facts.
Because there really isn't anyone who can tell you who is alive today, now is there? Whoever originally wrote it isn't here. Just the same as we have trouble with "original intent" with our Constitution the same is going to be even more true for the Bible.
Not exactly. The Bible has a tendency to use absolutes. "Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal."
But wait, no no no. Thou shalt not kill; obviously it meant that shalt not kill senselessly. I mean if a guy beats you in a game of chess, you have the right to lob off his head.
What's their to interpret? The Bible was never one for fancy lil lawyer words and what have you. You could have a child read the "thou shalt not do" statutes - I'm not only speaking of the 10 commandments either - and for the most part know what they're talking about.
This argument of yours is absurd, it holds absolutely zero weight.
You sound like a bloody pharisee.
But for someone who doesn't choose to follow the Bible this is all a mute topic anyway. So, to make laws manipulating people's behavior and choosing who gets what rights based on Biblical scripture while living in a secular society is not going to work.
Not work? It'd always work. Now will it be done? No, it won't.
If you don't like that then move to a theocratic society.
We seem to be lacking those lately.
I'm not looking at cultures of past and present. Therefore, I'm not juggling anything. I'm talking about the reality of here and now. If you want to bring up past behaviors and try to equate them to behaviors of today then you are again using slide of hand techniques to distract from the current topic.
It's called looking at the "big picture". I'm sad to see that you think abstract thought is something "sleight of hand".
There are laws in each country, and each state of the U.S., that tell you the age of consent. These laws tell who is an adult and able to legally consent to sex. If you don't agree with that age then you can petition legislation to be changed. We are a nation of laws. And those are what we go by.
I didn't ask what the U.S. considered an adult. I asked you a question. Don't divert it by an all-too common avoidance technique.
Pedophilia in our society is not sex between two consenting adults. "Adult", as a I said, is spelled out by age in the laws of that nation or state.
So if 13 was considered the age of adulthood, you'd have no problem with homosexual acts between a 13 year old boy and a 30 year old man?
Homosexuals are not committing pedophilia and are not in any way the equivelant of this behavior. I believe it was...Plato, who would happen to agree with you. Finding homosexuality even worse than pederasty(pedophilia). So quit trying to use this to bring peoples emotion into the debate. Peoples emotions are always in a debate one way or another. It may work for people with low education levels, but for most people who know how to reason and think your technique is easily apparent. Uh, yah...You caught me. You forgot to add, "Abstract thought is the work of el diablo!
I'm not looking at cultures of past and present. Therefore, I'm not juggling anything. I'm talking about the reality of here and now. If you want to bring up past behaviors and try to equate them to behaviors of today then you are again using slide of hand techniques to distract from the current topic.
It's called looking at the "big picture". I'm sad to see that you think abstract thought is something "sleight of hand".
There are laws in each country, and each state of the U.S., that tell you the age of consent. These laws tell who is an adult and able to legally consent to sex. If you don't agree with that age then you can petition legislation to be changed. We are a nation of laws. And those are what we go by.
I didn't ask what the U.S. considered an adult. I asked you a question. Don't divert it by an all-too common avoidance technique.
Pedophilia in our society is not sex between two consenting adults. "Adult", as a I said, is spelled out by age in the laws of that nation or state.
So if 13 was considered the age of adulthood, you'd have no problem with homosexual acts between a 13 year old boy and a 30 year old man?
Homosexuals are not committing pedophilia and are not in any way the equivelant of this behavior. I believe it was...Plato, who would happen to agree with you. Finding homosexuality even worse than pederasty(pedophilia). So quit trying to use this to bring peoples emotion into the debate. Peoples emotions are always in a debate one way or another. It may work for people with low education levels, but for most people who know how to reason and think your technique is easily apparent. Uh, yah...You caught me. You forgot to add, "Abstract thought is the work of el diablo!
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by gnomexxx Originally posted by osiloa Does anyone in this discussion actually think they are going to change anyones minds? Seriously! The people that think Homosexuality is a sin are convinced it is a sin based on their religious views and anyone that is gay or who support homosexuals are not going to all of a sudden say OMG! Being gay really is a sin it must be cause SO and so on MMORPG.com says it is. Those that support gays or are gay themselves are going to support homosexuality no matter what is said in this thread and those that think that homosexuality is a sin based on their religious views will not be swayed by a gay person or one who supports them.
Actually, I was against homosexuality until I was in the military (believe it or not). I always thought that gays were these little girly acting men that liked to wear womens clothing.
Then when I got in the military I became really good friends with a guy in my A school. He was one of the coolest guys I've ever met. Everyone in class liked him and we all went out and did stuff together. He was like the one guy in our class that everyone got along with.
Then somehow it got around in our class about two months after we got started that he was gay. I asked him if it was true one day and he said yeah. Everyone in the class knew, but we didn't tell and nobody even cared really. He didn't act gay and was a good friend so it changed my whole opinion 180 degrees.
Ever since then I have made other friends that are gay. A lot of them I did meet in the military. You would be surprised how many gay people actually serve. And for the most part people don't give a shit (except your occasional red-neck recruit). The gays that are in the military serve just as proud as the next soldier and I haven't met one that I wouldn't trust my life with.
So, yeah people change their minds. I did.
That is because you actually met the person and came to like him, I am talking about a debate on a gaming website. Will this debate on this particular website change your mind that Homosexuality is a sin? I highly doubt it as you have it in your mind that being gay is ok, so nothing I or anyone else says can convince you otherwise. I too have many friends who are gay.
Originally posted by osiloa Does anyone in this discussion actually think they are going to change anyones minds? Seriously! The people that think Homosexuality is a sin are convinced it is a sin based on their religious views and anyone that is gay or who support homosexuals are not going to all of a suddent say OMG! Being gay really is a sin it must be cause SO and so on MMORPG.com says it is. Those that support gays or are gay themselves are going to support homosexuality no matter what is said in this thread and those that think that homosexuality is a sin based on their religious views will not be swayed by a gay person or one who supports them.
Discussion in anything is eventually a good thing, either it encourages good ideas, or exposes bad ones. Throwing your hands up in the air in surrender and saying, its to hard, or to difficult, or it wont work, is looking at things from the simplest perspective.
This discussion, might be just another brick taken down from a wall of bigotry, or added to it, depending on ones opinion. But discussion has proved time and time again that its good far outweighs the negatives.
Without discussion, we'd still have slavery, if you asked the country, 220 years ago are blacks human, you would have heard a resounding no. Eventually people started speaking out against, it, people started discussing it, and guess what, slowly but surely minds were changed because of the dialogue. It didnt change things overnight, in fact it took over a hundred years before slaves were freed. But under your logic they wouldnt have been since noone was allowed to talk about it. Because you'd say, "the people would never change their minds"
Frankly, the people who try to silence discussion are almost people who dont want the status quo to change. You say you have gay friends? How does stifling discussion about their lives and future help them? You are doing them a great disservice by trying to silence the argument because the only ones it benefits are the people who want to keep the gays in the closet and scared.
If you are friends with gay people, then be a friend and support them. Dont just say your friends with gay people to gain some kind of false credibility.
At first i had some hope that some ppl could be argue with, but there is no such thing, they are too biased and full of hatred (i wonder what happened to make them that way) to see that homosexuals and straights are all but the same and just want the same rights... fights of minorities are never easy, but sooner or later the majority will have to show some respect to others. I wonder what problem they see when 2 person of the same sex marry, they dont have to go to bed with them, or anything... but well one day they will see the light (i guess...).
upallnight, too bad the Bible damns them to hell acording to popular translation. If our God is omniscient, why even create gay people if he knows they are going to hell? Damning one of your children to hell pre-creation is nice and forgiving on God's part. If my creator is as selfish and closed-minded as the Bible makes him out to be, I'd rather rot in the ground then share his company.
The question of gay marriage does fall back on legislating morality, right? I always hear that we shouldn't try to legislate morality. But, what about legislating morality in regards to charity? I see my paycheck robbed and spent towards charitable programs by force (welfare, social security, medicaid, financial aid, etc). And yes, it is by force. Try not paying that portion of your taxes. Eventually, some armed men will show up to arrest you for not paying your donation...I mean tax. Maybe I don't want to be charitable? What business is that of someone else? Or maybe I do, but not through government mandated laws. If we can legislate a moral issue such as charity, enforced by the law, why shouldn't we legislate other moral issues? Such as the definition of marriage? Now, the libertarians have this one solved without any contradictions. They wouldn't legislate either of those moral issues, I suppose. They'd leave it up to the individual. Just a thought.
Originally posted by lardmouth The question of gay marriage does fall back on legislating morality, right? I always hear that we shouldn't try to legislate morality. But, what about legislating morality in regards to charity? I see my paycheck robbed and spent towards charitable programs by force (welfare, social security, medicaid, financial aid, etc). And yes, it is by force. Try not paying that portion of your taxes. Eventually, some armed men will show up to arrest you for not paying your donation...I mean tax. Maybe I don't want to be charitable? What business is that of someone else? Or maybe I do, but not through government mandated laws. If we can legislate a moral issue such as charity, enforced by the law, why shouldn't we legislate other moral issues? Such as the definition of marriage? Now, the libertarians have this one solved without any contradictions. They wouldn't legislate either of those moral issues, I suppose. They'd leave it up to the individual. Just a thought.
Too bad I have a better chance of winning an election in place of libertarian.
Originally posted by catastrophic Originally posted by Thanatosx33 They make me feel...uncomfortable...
They make me feel uncomfortable too. Yeah, anyone you're not used to makes you uncomfortable at first. That's human nature.
I grew up in a 99% white community. There was only 1 black person in my graduating class in high school. I hardly knew any black people growing up.
Then when I got in the workplace for the first time I was around more black people. They made me uncomfortable at first. But then you get to know them.
Try it out. You're not going to get to know anyone or learn about people if you avoid everyone who makes you uncomfortable.
Comments
Believe me, I have not chosen to be
gay. In fact, the rational side of my brain fought against me, telling me that
my thoughts were wrong etc... until I surrendered to my feelings and accepted
what I am, accepting that it's neither something bad nor good, it's just me,
the way I am, just like being blue or brown eye-coloured it's just another
thing that distinguishes you. So if nature wanted me to be that way, what's
wrong with it? and don't tell me sex among men is wrong/not natural as long as
you accept sex between men’s and woman’s, cos oral sex is practiced by everyone
since ancient times, same with anal sex, and did you know anal sex highly
pleasant for all men’s as the prostate gland is near there? don’t you find it
to be quite natural?
In this culture that may be of what a pedophile usually is. But to truely juggle the philosophy, one must look at all cultures, past and present.
And, in past cultures, pederasty(cultural pedophilia) was a "norm" to them, was consensual(in some, maybe most), and even almost essential for the growing of child, to adulthood.
P.S. What is an adult? That as well changes for every culture.
I'm not looking at cultures of past and present. Therefore, I'm not juggling anything. I'm talking about the reality of here and now. If you want to bring up past behaviors and try to equate them to behaviors of today then you are again using slide of hand techniques to distract from the current topic.
There are laws in each country, and each state of the U.S., that tell you the age of consent. These laws tell who is an adult and able to legally consent to sex. If you don't agree with that age then you can petition legislation to be changed. We are a nation of laws. And those are what we go by.
Pedophilia in our society is not sex between two consenting adults. "Adult", as a I said, is spelled out by age in the laws of that nation or state.
Homosexuals are not committing pedophilia and are not in any way the equivelant of this behavior. So quit trying to use this to bring peoples emotion into the debate. It may work for people with low education levels, but for most people who know how to reason and think your technique is easily apparent.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
By allowing a gay couple to be recognized by the government you would only be changing who is recognized by contractual law. There wouldn't have to be any tax laws changed. The ones that apply now would simply carry over to the new recognized contracts.
I saw a show the other day about gay couples that were seperated during 9-11. Some of them had been together for years. Some even had wills for their material possessions. The show followed them along their lives after their loved one died.
Even though some of them had wills, the families of their partner successfully challenged the wills and won.
Then there was the case of charities that were setup to help people that had lost their loved ones in 9-11. These couples had setup two person households. Shared in the decision making about what houses to buy, property that they owned, etc, and all the bills that came along with that. The same way that married couples do. The married couples of course got the charitable benefits to help them out with their lives so they didn't have to lose their homes and such. But the gay people who were left behind got nothing.
Some of the gay people left behind even lost their personal possessions because even though the will stated that the possessions would be given to their partners, some states didn't recognize this as legal. So the states actually took the property away from them!!!
This is the reason our laws need to be changed. Anyone who tells you that a civil union or a will can stand up in court is wrong. These cases showed that. These peoples lives were not only horribly changed, just as they were for married couples, but they then had to go up against the system in order to protect their belongings and defend their so called legal contracts.
After watching that show I was more angry than I have been in a long time. I couldn't believe that a society could be so cruel to people and treat them the way these people were treated. Everyone was rallying around the couples that were married to help them out, yet here were these couples that had established lives together and were just as much a part of the community but were being turned away and having their stuff taken away from them.
Look, what's that???
Oh, just some guy looking in the mirror.
If it were that simple I'd be all for this suggestion. But think of the tax laws that would have to be changed. how would you deal with material possessions after a divorce? There would have to be some kind of Government oversight.
I think the simplist solution would just be to allow same sex marriages or "unions" or whatever the hell you want to call them.
The world is doomed anyways. No sense in making a big stink over this.
Nyah, the world isn't doomed. It's just changing.
We're ironing out problems from the past that people used to avoid. Heck, we're still having to wade our way through people trying to take us back to before the age of reason. What do you think it was like for people going through the introduction of that "radical" new thought process? Thank our creator that we just had people like the U.S. founding fathers to stand out and implement policy based on new philosophies.
It will sort itself out. I have a lot of faith in the human race. Things are changing very rapidly around us and we're having to deal with it using our slowly evolving brains. But we'll figure it out.
You wouldn't want to go back to the 1500's would you? The last 500 years have been amazing. And we're witnessing some extraordinary things in our lifetime. Up until about 500 years ago progress was for the most part static, but it's coming incredibly fast now. Mostly because we are shedding off our old beliefs. And as we shed them off isn't it apparent what happens? Progress!
===============================
I think he meant help to establish a first hand point of view to add more to the debate. Sometimes people discuss minorities without the minorities even being there to give their own opinion about things. That leaves a lot up to assumption and can easily lead to misconceptions about other people.
-----------------------
</OBAMA>
The people that think Homosexuality is a sin are convinced it is a sin based on their religious views and anyone that is gay or who support homosexuals are not going to all of a suddent say OMG! Being gay really is a sin it must be cause SO and so on MMORPG.com says it is. Those that support gays or are gay themselves are going to support homosexuality no matter what is said in this thread and those that think that homosexuality is a sin based on their religious views will not be swayed by a gay person or one who supports them.
come on.... butt sex? man on man oral sex? women on women? friends sucking each other... gimme a break.. love? gay love? yeah right, total perversion thats what it is.
I don't honestly now what to say.. except that that made me laugh... alot
Then when I got in the military I became really good friends with a guy in my A school. He was one of the coolest guys I've ever met. Everyone in class liked him and we all went out and did stuff together. He was like the one guy in our class that everyone got along with.
Then somehow it got around in our class about two months after we got started that he was gay. I asked him if it was true one day and he said yeah. Everyone in the class knew, but we didn't tell and nobody even cared really. He didn't act gay and was a good friend so it changed my whole opinion 180 degrees.
Ever since then I have made other friends that are gay. A lot of them I did meet in the military. You would be surprised how many gay people actually serve. And for the most part people don't give a shit (except your occasional red-neck recruit). The gays that are in the military serve just as proud as the next soldier and I haven't met one that I wouldn't trust my life with.
So, yeah people change their minds. I did.
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"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Then when I got in the military I became really good friends with a guy in my A school. He was one of the coolest guys I've ever met. Everyone in class liked him and we all went out and did stuff together. He was like the one guy in our class that everyone got along with.
Then somehow it got around in our class about two months after we got started that he was gay. I asked him if it was true one day and he said yeah. Everyone in the class knew, but we didn't tell and nobody even cared really. He didn't act gay and was a good friend so it changed my whole opinion 180 degrees.
Ever since then I have made other friends that are gay. A lot of them I did meet in the military. You would be surprised how many gay people actually serve. And for the most part people don't give a shit (except your occasional red-neck recruit). The gays that are in the military serve just as proud as the next soldier and I haven't met one that I wouldn't trust my life with.
So, yeah people change their minds. I did.
That is because you actually met the person and came to like him, I am talking about a debate on a gaming website. Will this debate on this particular website change your mind that Homosexuality is a sin? I highly doubt it as you have it in your mind that being gay is ok, so nothing I or anyone else says can convince you otherwise. I too have many friends who are gay.
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Look, what's that???
Oh, just some guy looking in the mirror.
Eh?
Discussion in anything is eventually a good thing, either it encourages good ideas, or exposes bad ones. Throwing your hands up in the air in surrender and saying, its to hard, or to difficult, or it wont work, is looking at things from the simplest perspective.
This discussion, might be just another brick taken down from a wall of bigotry, or added to it, depending on ones opinion. But discussion has proved time and time again that its good far outweighs the negatives.
Without discussion, we'd still have slavery, if you asked the country, 220 years ago are blacks human, you would have heard a resounding no. Eventually people started speaking out against, it, people started discussing it, and guess what, slowly but surely minds were changed because of the dialogue. It didnt change things overnight, in fact it took over a hundred years before slaves were freed. But under your logic they wouldnt have been since noone was allowed to talk about it. Because you'd say, "the people would never change their minds"
Frankly, the people who try to silence discussion are almost people who dont want the status quo to change. You say you have gay friends? How does stifling discussion about their lives and future help them? You are doing them a great disservice by trying to silence the argument because the only ones it benefits are the people who want to keep the gays in the closet and scared.
If you are friends with gay people, then be a friend and support them. Dont just say your friends with gay people to gain some kind of false credibility.
If our God is omniscient, why even create gay people if he knows they are going to hell? Damning one of your children to hell pre-creation is nice and forgiving on God's part.
If my creator is as selfish and closed-minded as the Bible makes him out to be, I'd rather rot in the ground then share his company.
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The question of gay marriage does fall back on legislating morality, right? I always hear that we shouldn't try to legislate morality. But, what about legislating morality in regards to charity? I see my paycheck robbed and spent towards charitable programs by force (welfare, social security, medicaid, financial aid, etc). And yes, it is by force. Try not paying that portion of your taxes. Eventually, some armed men will show up to arrest you for not paying your donation...I mean tax. Maybe I don't want to be charitable? What business is that of someone else? Or maybe I do, but not through government mandated laws. If we can legislate a moral issue such as charity, enforced by the law, why shouldn't we legislate other moral issues? Such as the definition of marriage? Now, the libertarians have this one solved without any contradictions. They wouldn't legislate either of those moral issues, I suppose. They'd leave it up to the individual. Just a thought.
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Yeah, anyone you're not used to makes you uncomfortable at first. That's human nature.
I grew up in a 99% white community. There was only 1 black person in my graduating class in high school. I hardly knew any black people growing up.
Then when I got in the workplace for the first time I was around more black people. They made me uncomfortable at first. But then you get to know them.
Try it out. You're not going to get to know anyone or learn about people if you avoid everyone who makes you uncomfortable.