Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Thats cool man you do that. Not sure why the PvE guys always have to come into PvP MMO forums to complain about shit that isn't going to change. This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
I think they do it because developers change games pretty fast when 80% of the player base leaves. We've seen this happen before.
It's nice to say things like "if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out", but I'm thinking the developers will make any change they must in order to be a success. I won't be buying the game because the developers strike me as naive - I hope it works out, but my money is on:
Large initial population.
Gankers drive people from the game.
With no vicitms, gankers leave the game. (1)
Developer back-pedals to be more PvE friendly.
Gankers blame PvE crowd for ruining the game.
Gankers move onto next clueless developer to poo all over that title.
I'd be happy to be wrong. I'm not - either the restrictions on PvP will be very strict or it will not succeed.
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Since only 10% of players can be in the top 10% (duh), about 10% of the gankers will drive off the other 90% of gankers. This will occur after the PvE players have left. You have this deluded population of wannabe tough guys who cannot handle the heat when it comes for them.
They random pvp ganking already is very strict and they have already said they can tune the penalties for ganking even higher as needed. So yeah you are right, that already is the plan.
When you gank you gain corruption. If you have corruption you accrue stat/skill penalties. You have a higher chance to drop carried/equipped gear. You suffer 4x the death penalty while corrupted which includes longer stat penalties, xp loss, and durability loss (equipment in this game can break). You gain even more corruption for attacking lower level players. Your location is pinged on the map for bounty hunters, etc.
If random ganking is happening too often its very easy to tune these numbers until it is a rare occurrence. Ganking should be rare but you DO have the freedom to do it. Most pvp is opt in like caravans, guild wars, guild sieges, even node wars (just move nodes), etc.
Many of you guys are just ignorant on the games systems I feel. If you have no interest in pvp at all I wonder why are you here? I don't go to FF or WoW forums asking for full pvp. Its asinine.
The social experience will be tossing Schadenfreude and "I told you so" at them. Everyone knows the only thing players drive a world to is ruin. If they don't get scammed first, that is. The game encourages big guilds, so it will inevitably be a zerg of sweaty players killing others with things that doesn't even resemble gameplay anymore, while driving smear campaigns against other big guilds accusing them of exploits/cheating to win anything at all, while doing exactly that.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Many of you guys are just ignorant on the games systems I feel. If you have no interest in pvp at all I wonder why are you here? I don't go to FF or WoW forums asking for full pvp. Its asinine.
I think there is a great deal of interest in balance between PvE and PvP.
I don't PvP but I like to have it in the world I'm enjoying, but it has to have enough consequence where I get to do what I want most of the time.
Here is the core issue: Enough consequence to drive griefers from the game does exactly that, which now means the game is "carebear". Do what you need to do to keep the griefers around and the game is "muder hobo" and the crafters leave.
So when you tell me there are consequences - that means nothing to me. The question is, will the consequences strike a balance that is appealing to both player bases? As soon as you make the consequences tougher the murder hobos will start pointing their fingers at the carebear crowd for "ruining the game". That's nonsense, but there you have it.
You're putting quite a bit of faith in the developer to solve something many have tried to solve before. Nothing wrong with being optimistic - but those of us who doubt have pretty firm footing.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Thats cool man you do that. Not sure why the PvE guys always have to come into PvP MMO forums to complain about shit that isn't going to change. This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
I've played most MMOs out there and to this day I don't reminisce about killing a raid boss for the 100th time for loot with higher numbers that will only be replaced with another patch with my friends. We talk about games like Shadowbane where we banded together to siege a big guilds castle.
We don't need another game where you log in once a week to raid log. Plenty of those already.
You say that as if the content just stops after endgame. It usually doesn't. Because it's not a PvP MMO. But of course you are going to reply to sticking to PvE games, when really I did try a PvP MMO before and followed some others out of interest, and also have a memory that lasts longer than 5 seconds. It's always the same.
The smear campaigns were in Worlds Adrift, they were in ATLAS, they probably were/are in other games too.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Thats cool man you do that. Not sure why the PvE guys always have to come into PvP MMO forums to complain about shit that isn't going to change. This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
I've played most MMOs out there and to this day I don't reminisce about killing a raid boss for the 100th time for loot with higher numbers that will only be replaced with another patch with my friends. We talk about games like Shadowbane where we banded together to siege a big guilds castle.
We don't need another game where you log in once a week to raid log. Plenty of those already.
Semi off topic, but got excited to hear someone mention Shadowbane...
Shadowbane! I miss that experience. What a great game. I had such a fun time as a Thief. The amount of money he had was sickening. My Confessor was a blast as well, he was the most fun "Paladin" type character I can remember from just about any game. Think I had a Warlock as well. The rune thingies you could equip to give different kinds of racial-type abilities to make yourself unique were a nice addition (were-rat was one I think?) The player towns were amazing, too, and you had reason to visit all of them to check out the player vendor shops.
This is coming from someone who only PvPs as a defender, and usually runs from a fight if I think I can escape. Still, what a masterpiece for the time. It has aged like milk however, and I can't get back into it.. DAoC has almost aged just as badly, but for some reason I can still deal with that one.
Gankers move onto next clueless developer to poo all over that title."
That was the fate or Mortal Online 2. They can't figure out which crowd to cater too - truly sad. They should have made 2 copies of the world for both types.
The social experience will be tossing Schadenfreude and "I told you so" at them. Everyone knows the only thing players drive a world to is ruin. If they don't get scammed first, that is. The game encourages big guilds, so it will inevitably be a zerg of sweaty players killing others with things that doesn't even resemble gameplay anymore, while driving smear campaigns against other big guilds accusing them of exploits/cheating to win anything at all, while doing exactly that.
Which is why I will stick with FFXIV and LOTRO, because at least there is a world I can immerse myself into.
Gankers move onto next clueless developer to poo all over that title."
That was the fate or Mortal Online 2. They can't figure out which crowd to cater too - truly sad. They should have made 2 copies of the world for both types.
The problem with two servers is if all the crafter carebear types go to the PvE server then those hardcore PvP types (or so they think) left on the PvP server eat each other. Even PvP types don't like to lose 8:10 battles - so the weaker PvP types leave.
Many of you guys are just ignorant on the games systems I feel. If you have no interest in pvp at all I wonder why are you here? I don't go to FF or WoW forums asking for full pvp. Its asinine.
I think there is a great deal of interest in balance between PvE and PvP.
I don't PvP but I like to have it in the world I'm enjoying, but it has to have enough consequence where I get to do what I want most of the time.
Here is the core issue: Enough consequence to drive griefers from the game does exactly that, which now means the game is "carebear". Do what you need to do to keep the griefers around and the game is "muder hobo" and the crafters leave.
So when you tell me there are consequences - that means nothing to me. The question is, will the consequences strike a balance that is appealing to both player bases? As soon as you make the consequences tougher the murder hobos will start pointing their fingers at the carebear crowd for "ruining the game". That's nonsense, but there you have it.
You're putting quite a bit of faith in the developer to solve something many have tried to solve before. Nothing wrong with being optimistic - but those of us who doubt have pretty firm footing.
The murder hobos would cry if you made the game PvE as well. So what is the downside?
The consequences should be high enough that random murdering almost never happens but you STILL have that option if you are willing to take on those consequences. It doesn't need to be profitable to murder people. Sometimes you just want to kill someone bad enough to take a hit for doing it. Also they can fight back and its no longer a murder which allows for that random dynamic pvp to happen.
Gankers move onto next clueless developer to poo all over that title."
That was the fate or Mortal Online 2. They can't figure out which crowd to cater too - truly sad. They should have made 2 copies of the world for both types.
The problem with two servers is if all the crafter carebear types go to the PvE server then those hardcore PvP types (or so they think) left on the PvP server eat each other. Even PvP types don't like to lose 8:10 battles - so the weaker PvP types leave.
They always eat their own.
I don't see the issue of this pvper servers dying if the model actually worked it wouldn't have such a flaw that made it die.
Forcing pvp down the throats of every player should never be allowed in the first place, if you need to force pvp on everyone in a game just to keep it alive for a few months how bout you just make a better game design and stop trying to do what you want and eat your cake to.
The fate of all forced pvp games is to die from the lack of playerbase willing to tolerate the loses.
While we're in agreement, it is important to acknowledge PvP cannot be forced onto you. The only way you get PvP is if you buy the game, log in, create a character, and play. You make decisions along the way that put you in that place.
That sounds like I'm blaming the victim, I'm not. Instead, I'm trying to point out that you've the power these days to always 100% avoid PvP by not buying those kinds of games - let's keep starving the full loot games of funds until the developers learn.
This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Interesting you bring up Shadowbane - how is that game doing by the way?
I suppose its doing as well as Crowfall about now.
Isnt it hard to play a game that doesnt work out?
If anything there are plenty of PVP games. The only difference is they seem to all not work out.
Shadowbane was an extremely janky game made on the smallest of budgets by a small group of indie devs. I played it for about a year and it was one of the best gaming experiences in my life DESPITE the jank. Pretty rare anyone takes the risk of making a proper high budget pvp mmo.
I dont really need a game to last forever. If Ashes comes out and gives me a few years of good pvp mmo entertainment, I would be happy. I'd rather play a year of Shadowbane over 10 years of raid logging or collecting toys/pets/mounts/transmog in WoW.
This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Interesting you bring up Shadowbane - how is that game doing by the way?
I suppose its doing as well as Crowfall about now.
Isnt it hard to play a game that doesnt work out?
If anything there are plenty of PVP games. The only difference is they seem to all not work out.
Same as the PvE ones.
Bad games die. Whether PvE or PvP.
This is why you should have both PVE and PVP servers. MMO's need all the people they can get. They cant afford to just play to once small tiny playerbase.
In regards to PVE MMO's that died, way way way more PVP MMOs are dead and buried in the graveyard than anything even remotely resembling a PVE MMO.
This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Interesting you bring up Shadowbane - how is that game doing by the way?
I suppose its doing as well as Crowfall about now.
Isnt it hard to play a game that doesnt work out?
If anything there are plenty of PVP games. The only difference is they seem to all not work out.
Same as the PvE ones.
Bad games die. Whether PvE or PvP.
This is why you should have both PVE and PVP servers. MMO's need all the people they can get. They cant afford to just play to once small tiny playerbase.
In regards to PVE MMO's that died, way way way more PVP MMOs are dead and buried in the graveyard than anything even remotely resembling a PVE MMO.
Only if you include every game with a shred of PvP as a "PvP Game". A game like ESO has both PvE and PvE on one big server cluster. No separation. Is it a "PvP game?" At launch I would say ABSOLUTELY as they were really pushing Firor's DAoC bona fides. But around that core of Alliance Vs Alliance vs Alliance game they have built quite a robust PvE game. Somehow all together without a segregated PvE server. Pretty sure GW2 just has regional based servers and not PvE/PvP specific ones.
Again, the key is not to make a bad game. Make a good game and people will play it. You can have a good game that is PvE only. You can have a good game that is PvP focused. You can have a good game that combines them.
We are watching the slow motion train crash of Pantheon. Not because it's PvE only right now, but because it stinks. Same for Embers Adrift. Another PvE only game that is on life support.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is a PvP MMO and that's not changing. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Interesting you bring up Shadowbane - how is that game doing by the way?
I suppose its doing as well as Crowfall about now.
Isnt it hard to play a game that doesnt work out?
If anything there are plenty of PVP games. The only difference is they seem to all not work out.
Same as the PvE ones.
Bad games die. Whether PvE or PvP.
This is why you should have both PVE and PVP servers. MMO's need all the people they can get. They cant afford to just play to once small tiny playerbase.
In regards to PVE MMO's that died, way way way more PVP MMOs are dead and buried in the graveyard than anything even remotely resembling a PVE MMO.
Only if you include every game with a shred of PvP as a "PvP Game". A game like ESO has both PvE and PvE on one big server cluster. No separation. Is it a "PvP game?" At launch I would say ABSOLUTELY as they were really pushing Firor's DAoC bona fides. But around that core of Alliance Vs Alliance vs Alliance game they have built quite a robust PvE game. Somehow all together without a segregated PvE server. Pretty sure GW2 just has regional based servers and not PvE/PvP specific ones.
Again, the key is not to make a bad game. Make a good game and people will play it. You can have a good game that is PvE only. You can have a good game that is PvP focused. You can have a good game that combines them.
We are watching the slow motion train crash of Pantheon. Not because it's PvE only right now, but because it stinks. Same for Embers Adrift. Another PvE only game that is on life support.
What about good MMOs that are PvP focused.
It doesn't matter how good an MMO is, if it's focused on PvP there will be a large number of MMOs gamers that will not play it.
AoC is also large group PvP focused. So, if you're not in a mega guild you probably won't have a good time.
I was watching a YouTuber talking about the guild he has for AoC that has 15000 members.
In regards to PVE MMO's that died, way way way more PVP MMOs are dead and buried in the graveyard than anything even remotely resembling a PVE MMO.
IMO that's due to the myth that "PvP players make their own content". We've seen plenty of MMO's crapped out on the cheap without effective curbs on the "seal clubbers" because these devs think that's "PvP content". That's just catering to the griefers.
While PvP players may not need as much content as PvE players they do need appropriate objectives to fight over. Just handing them a FFA is going to get very boring very fast.
Another mistake is limiting participation to the largest groups or failure to provide content that can be tackled by small teams or solo players.
In regards to PVE MMO's that died, way way way more PVP MMOs are dead and buried in the graveyard than anything even remotely resembling a PVE MMO.
IMO that's due to the myth that "PvP players make their own content". We've seen plenty of MMO's crapped out on the cheap without effective curbs on the "seal clubbers" because these devs think that's "PvP content". That's just catering to the griefers.
While PvP players may not need as much content as PvE players they do need appropriate objectives to fight over. Just handing them a FFA is going to get very boring very fast.
Another mistake is limiting participation to the largest groups or failure to provide content that can be tackled by small teams or solo players.
That's true. Ashes is supposed to have as much PvE content as any other MMO. People keep calling it a PvP game but its not true. Its not a sandbox where there is only "community driven content" that gets stale over time on its own.
This is why you should have both PVE and PVP servers. MMO's need all the people they can get. They cant afford to just play to once small tiny playerbase.
In regards to PVE MMO's that died, way way way more PVP MMOs are dead and buried in the graveyard than anything even remotely resembling a PVE MMO.
As there are way, way more PvE MMOs with nothing but an arena or duelling in them, MMOs where PvE is 90% of the experience, there is no way that's true. Real attempts to make a gam ranging from DAOC, to Shadowbane are few and far between.
Does that indicate that substantial PvP cannot be a commercial success? No, it indicates that studios don't think the term MMO and extensive PvP will be a commercial success. Their mistake is 'if we have this many MMO like elements we can't have much in the way of PvP'. Meanwhile in the likes of MOBA to Survival, PvP is very present, that shows you how limited their thinking is.
I say limited thinking, but really this is about making things to the same old tried and trusted template. If a new Shadowbane came out (doubt I would play) and was a great success that would not change their ideas, which are based on the success of the WoW template since WoW came out.
In most survival games the threat of PvP being an option can be easily blocked with passworded servers. The server population is also a small size. It is only a problem where people destroy structures and resources where the public servers are used. Enough bad experiences cause most folk to make private password protected servers and it is solved. I do not think this is a good comparison to MMORPGs.
MOBAs whole raison d'être is to PvP and capture the other side's base. There is no other way to play unless the option to play against bots is considered PvE.
In most survival games the threat of PvP being an option can be easily blocked with passworded servers. The server population is also a small size. It is only a problem where people destroy structures and resources where the public servers are used. Enough bad experiences cause most folk to make private password protected servers and it is solved. I do not think this is a good comparison to MMORPGs.
MOBAs whole raison d'être is to PvP and capture the other side's base. There is no other way to play unless the option to play against bots is considered PvE.
Well, just like you can block PvP in some survival games (Most? Not sure), you can do that in many MMO like games as well. So I do see a continuum here, MMOs, MOBA's etc, which is why I think it is a fair comparison. Many people talk about how good it would be if MMO combat was like MOBA, not sure I agree but these types of games draw from each other.
I have played capture the base in MMOs, was it SWTOR? Somewhat like that in ESO, others too. Very MOBA like but still in MMORPG's.
Likewise MMORPG PvE is like solo RPG's, that is the genius of MMOs, take elements from all sorts of games and create a gestalt greater than the parts. That creates problems, here we are talking about PvE vs PvP ones, but MMORPG's are better games with all that gameplay as long as it is fitted together properly. Which is hard to do, as we see so many MMOs where the play does not gel quite right.
DAOC was an interesting development in the history of PVP. They did a great job having meaningful PVP that impacted the PVE world but never forced anyone to PVP. The issue, like many other games, is that PVE balance and PVP balance were the same so DAOC is also a history of massive nerfs and buffs and classes fluctuating between the two. I remember in the early days of WOW, priests could mind control you almost forever because there was so little diminishing returns and imbalance in pve skills in pvp.
There is also a myth that hardcore FFA PVP is very popular. It may be in certain games but it rarely is in game like DAOC or others with significant PVE content. I remember the cries for FFA in DAOC and Mordred was born. It was always the least populated server. The FFA crowd is loud but they want what they want and rarely do games deliver. I would argue that crowd, in this more modern gaming era, is into FPS, MOBOs, and other associated games focus on PVP; but for some reasons MMOs still want to cater to the crowd while sacrificing other important aspects of the game.
I really like WOW does now. PVP toggle with PVP based skills unique to PVP. It lets you, the player, choose. I am also excited about how Dune Awakening is looking at PVP. It seems to be treating PVP as more like conflict and war. Now implementation will be interesting but I really like what the plan is. In an interview the lead dev said there would be PVP around crash sites and you may show up and be the only players and proceed to scavenge for resources. All the sudden some big guild shows up with 100 players and you have the choice to run or stay. But with a map that will be giant and with lots of options, its mot like its limited to a certain small area or location.
Comments
When you gank you gain corruption. If you have corruption you accrue stat/skill penalties. You have a higher chance to drop carried/equipped gear. You suffer 4x the death penalty while corrupted which includes longer stat penalties, xp loss, and durability loss (equipment in this game can break). You gain even more corruption for attacking lower level players. Your location is pinged on the map for bounty hunters, etc.
If random ganking is happening too often its very easy to tune these numbers until it is a rare occurrence. Ganking should be rare but you DO have the freedom to do it. Most pvp is opt in like caravans, guild wars, guild sieges, even node wars (just move nodes), etc.
Many of you guys are just ignorant on the games systems I feel. If you have no interest in pvp at all I wonder why are you here? I don't go to FF or WoW forums asking for full pvp. Its asinine.
I don't PvP but I like to have it in the world I'm enjoying, but it has to have enough consequence where I get to do what I want most of the time.
Here is the core issue: Enough consequence to drive griefers from the game does exactly that, which now means the game is "carebear". Do what you need to do to keep the griefers around and the game is "muder hobo" and the crafters leave.
So when you tell me there are consequences - that means nothing to me. The question is, will the consequences strike a balance that is appealing to both player bases? As soon as you make the consequences tougher the murder hobos will start pointing their fingers at the carebear crowd for "ruining the game". That's nonsense, but there you have it.
You're putting quite a bit of faith in the developer to solve something many have tried to solve before. Nothing wrong with being optimistic - but those of us who doubt have pretty firm footing.
I suppose its doing as well as Crowfall about now.
Isnt it hard to play a game that doesnt work out?
If anything there are plenty of PVP games. The only difference is they seem to all not work out.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You say that as if the content just stops after endgame. It usually doesn't. Because it's not a PvP MMO.
But of course you are going to reply to sticking to PvE games, when really I did try a PvP MMO before and followed some others out of interest, and also have a memory that lasts longer than 5 seconds. It's always the same.
The smear campaigns were in Worlds Adrift, they were in ATLAS, they probably were/are in other games too.
Shadowbane! I miss that experience. What a great game. I had such a fun time as a Thief. The amount of money he had was sickening. My Confessor was a blast as well, he was the most fun "Paladin" type character I can remember from just about any game. Think I had a Warlock as well. The rune thingies you could equip to give different kinds of racial-type abilities to make yourself unique were a nice addition (were-rat was one I think?) The player towns were amazing, too, and you had reason to visit all of them to check out the player vendor shops.
This is coming from someone who only PvPs as a defender, and usually runs from a fight if I think I can escape. Still, what a masterpiece for the time. It has aged like milk however, and I can't get back into it.. DAoC has almost aged just as badly, but for some reason I can still deal with that one.
That was the fate or Mortal Online 2. They can't figure out which crowd to cater too - truly sad. They should have made 2 copies of the world for both types.
They always eat their own.
I be eating colours when my days are grey
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I be eating colours when my days are grey
Clicking on my profiles just gonna give you music links galore so enjoy
The consequences should be high enough that random murdering almost never happens but you STILL have that option if you are willing to take on those consequences. It doesn't need to be profitable to murder people. Sometimes you just want to kill someone bad enough to take a hit for doing it. Also they can fight back and its no longer a murder which allows for that random dynamic pvp to happen.
That sounds like I'm blaming the victim, I'm not. Instead, I'm trying to point out that you've the power these days to always 100% avoid PvP by not buying those kinds of games - let's keep starving the full loot games of funds until the developers learn.
I dont really need a game to last forever. If Ashes comes out and gives me a few years of good pvp mmo entertainment, I would be happy. I'd rather play a year of Shadowbane over 10 years of raid logging or collecting toys/pets/mounts/transmog in WoW.
In regards to PVE MMO's that died, way way way more PVP MMOs are dead and buried in the graveyard than anything even remotely resembling a PVE MMO.
Again, the key is not to make a bad game. Make a good game and people will play it. You can have a good game that is PvE only. You can have a good game that is PvP focused. You can have a good game that combines them.
We are watching the slow motion train crash of Pantheon. Not because it's PvE only right now, but because it stinks. Same for Embers Adrift. Another PvE only game that is on life support.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Does that indicate that substantial PvP cannot be a commercial success? No, it indicates that studios don't think the term MMO and extensive PvP will be a commercial success. Their mistake is 'if we have this many MMO like elements we can't have much in the way of PvP'. Meanwhile in the likes of MOBA to Survival, PvP is very present, that shows you how limited their thinking is.
I say limited thinking, but really this is about making things to the same old tried and trusted template. If a new Shadowbane came out (doubt I would play) and was a great success that would not change their ideas, which are based on the success of the WoW template since WoW came out.
MOBAs whole raison d'être is to PvP and capture the other side's base. There is no other way to play unless the option to play against bots is considered PvE.
I have played capture the base in MMOs, was it SWTOR? Somewhat like that in ESO, others too. Very MOBA like but still in MMORPG's.
Likewise MMORPG PvE is like solo RPG's, that is the genius of MMOs, take elements from all sorts of games and create a gestalt greater than the parts. That creates problems, here we are talking about PvE vs PvP ones, but MMORPG's are better games with all that gameplay as long as it is fitted together properly. Which is hard to do, as we see so many MMOs where the play does not gel quite right.
There is also a myth that hardcore FFA PVP is very popular. It may be in certain games but it rarely is in game like DAOC or others with significant PVE content. I remember the cries for FFA in DAOC and Mordred was born. It was always the least populated server. The FFA crowd is loud but they want what they want and rarely do games deliver. I would argue that crowd, in this more modern gaming era, is into FPS, MOBOs, and other associated games focus on PVP; but for some reasons MMOs still want to cater to the crowd while sacrificing other important aspects of the game.
I really like WOW does now. PVP toggle with PVP based skills unique to PVP. It lets you, the player, choose. I am also excited about how Dune Awakening is looking at PVP. It seems to be treating PVP as more like conflict and war. Now implementation will be interesting but I really like what the plan is. In an interview the lead dev said there would be PVP around crash sites and you may show up and be the only players and proceed to scavenge for resources. All the sudden some big guild shows up with 100 players and you have the choice to run or stay. But with a map that will be giant and with lots of options, its mot like its limited to a certain small area or location.