[quote]In a world that requires consistent subscription fees to continue to have a viable game, the customer will not pay for games to advance their characters, only to see all that work eliminated constantly[/quote]
I agree with ALL of this but this one statement. For a perfect example, look at Guild Wars. No subscription fees at all, and they are offering contests where you can win $100,000. It is their Guild vs. Guild championships.
In all reality, if a game is well received and popular, there is no need for subscription fees. For example:
300,000 subscribers pay $50 to buy the game. That equals $15,000,000. Then come out with a yearly expansion pack adding new chapters (such as GW is doing) onto the story for 40 dollars. If only 200,000 people buy that it will still equal $8,000,000. How much money do you need? That's around 23 million dollars in the first year alone. Then if you release another 1 or 2 expansions per year that's an additional 8-16 million if 200k keep buying them. NCSoft and it's developers have proven that you can make a killing with no subscription fees. They are doing it. They are nowhere near bankrupt or broke. They have long since broken even and are making a profit. And guess what? That's without subscription fees.
I used to play SWG a lot.... I've got over 400 hours logged on it. But since GW came out, I just can't justify paying $15 a month just for the privilige to play any online game anymore. Sure GW may not appeal to everyone, but the system they are using definately can and does work. Maybe more software companies will catch on and start following this.
They have also proven that they are listening to the players, but will not enact changes that will nerf the game. At least I haven't seen anything that has yet.
If you bought yourself a Mercedez and you made regular payments on it for years (you even loved it so much you bought a second one!) and you spent countless hours and more money fine tuning them to perfection and then one day you go to your garage and find an *Edsel how happy do you think you would be?
Thanks SOE for turning my Mercedez into an Edsel
*the Edsel was an automotive diseaster, failed in every way to attract or keep customers.
One would onnly hope that something good will come of this, but in reality it probably wont.
Lets face it, the arrogance shown by ( some of ) SoE here is not something you just shrug of, we are talking Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein etc, pathological megalomania, a first step would be to admit you have a problem and the second would be to actually go into some kind of therapy for it.
Very few get past the first stage of that.
Well then we can at least hope others will learn from their misstakes?
Do not think so, some will of course but people who ponder others misstakes are allready far enough on the path to self scrutiny that they will probably make the rigth decisions anyway, or at the very least stand up to any screw ups they make.
Take a look at AO, arguably one of the most horrible launches in MMO history, allthough they are somewhat redeemed by today they will never reach what they could have become.
Then Horizons do pretty much the same thing.
And now look at DDO.
Another angle would be Mourning, allthough that never really released.
Now shortly followed by DnL, allthough not the scam Mourning was the word is out and it is not good.
If we analyze this further we also lost some things that we should not have, I am talking about Wish, wich was pulled probably because recent track records of other MMO's, but in ligth of everything it would probably have made it big time. ( Allthough a silver lining would be that we got a few nice guest writers here as a couple of the DEVs from Wish pops in now and then if I am not misstaken ).
The MMO scene today looks more and more like when you use a mirror on a sunny day to fool your dog, it will run into the wall over and over again to catch that reflection, getting more dizzy each time and less able to figure out that he will never catch it.
Just substitute that reflection with a dollar bill and BAM, that analogy is spot on.
( No animals were hurt in any way during this post, In fact I do not even own a dog, anymore ).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All i got to say it god bless kevin! Words could not be truer. You are a man of exacting emotion evoking words. All he just said, i dont think anyone could of really said in fewer words with such clarity, conciseness, and straight to the jugular in your face direct. <CLAPS>
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
Umbrood your correct in those points. very well put, These companies should seriiously take heed to the fragile existance that a MMO holds when a Company forgoes its most important customers, VETS.
DDO ?? aww man dont even get me started. that POS shouldnt even have a monthly fee. All they offer I can get and more with Guild Wars with no monthly Fee. I foree it dropping off the map in a matter of months. Its one of the few instances where these Companies have such arrogant clout to assume they know what we want and need.
This 'silent majority" never materializes, and the Rest of the Players "veterans" who put countless hours into a game into a agame that they once loved, go up in smoke to be pushed to the side for a "subcriber base" doesnt even exist. It boggles the mind the Logic they presume to follow.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
I think one sentence sums up what we all feel when it comes to MMO's
THERE ARE TOO MANY FOLLOWERS, AND NOT ENOUGH LEADERS!!
explanation?? this would be rather than progress , and revolutionize, and innovate, Companies take the same cookie cutter recipe from award winning innovative MMO's and splice, and clone, or alter it to be similar but not exactly as spectaculer as the latter.
Needless to say I think its safe to say we are being MMO'd to death. There are wayyyyy too many MMO's coming out that sholdnt even be out, too many companies hoping to cash in a market to get a piece of the pie. And You can be right to assume they are smart to do so, but, i repeat, but only if they innovate, progress and revolutinize the current market/genre they are attempting to dive into.
A short list of the all the pretenders, agree or disagree up to you.
AC2, E&B, SWG(after it turned NGE and kicked all the vets to the curb), DnL, AO (absolutely inexcusable revolting launch) DDO (slowly festering into the black hole of MMO oblivion never to be seen again, i give it 6 months a year maybe good riddance, go PLAY GUILD WARS and save $15 a month)
any a really missed?? Im tired its 830 am i just came off work hehe so
fill in any that pretends but cant reallly contend!
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
Well...this would have been a great editorial 3-4 months ago...now it's just out-dated...since beta, i have been, and will always stick to the game...it's a great concept, and 3 years later, they are finally fixing the problems. As a frequent swg forum member, i dont see anymore goodbye posts, the "welcome me back" posts are on the incline...they are FIXING the game finally...the decision to not produce an expansion pack this year was the best decision that could have be made, and i commend SOE for doing that. Instead of trying to make more money that way, they are fixing what they now realize is "broken". SO IMHO this editorial was unfair, and late.
Nice editorial. It's sad what they did to that great game... I never had so much fun in vide game then when I started SWG. It was massive game. If they would only be fixing buys and adding new (bug free) contat... I would be playing this game for 3 more years or atleast till SWG2 would hit us.
Shame. Was a good game.
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
Originally posted by DrChewbacca Originally posted by Mna_Grok I am honestly not sure why people are reading this article like it is a brand new business paradigm that will revolutionize MMORPGs.
The article can be summed up in two sentances:
1 - Don't piss off current customers in a bid to get new customers.
2 - (Potential) new customers are greatly influenced by the words of old customers. (both currently subscribed and not)
These are not new ideas. They form the basis of any business' relationship with it's customers.
Hey, thank you for your brilliant analysis. The article is not about these ideas being new. It's about a rather big company obviously ignoring these ideas that seems so basic for us normal customers. Including you. This is what's interesting there.
My comment was more aimed at all of the posters in the thread who are screaming "Great analysis" and stuff like that.
The editorial is not, IMO, a great analysis of what went wrong. It is a simple statement of what went wrong with SWG. SOE made a gamble and lost. That is all there is to it.
Now an in-depth analysis of why they decided to change the classes would be interesting. But this editorial, not really.
Originally posted by DrSmaSh Nice editorial. It's sad what they did to that great game... I never had so much fun in vide game then when I started SWG. It was massive game. If they would only be fixing buys and adding new (bug free) contat... I would be playing this game for 3 more years or atleast till SWG2 would hit us. Shame. Was a good game.
im not gonna flame you dont worry, but we have to be realistic in the notion, if, mind you, if they do actually fix stuff and add actual content its gonna be a while before we see an increase in the quality of the game. but hey there is always hope. i for one never seen such a hardheaded, devoted following to such a bugged MMO. That goes to show you how much we all loved this game, buggy or not, it was our ugly baby, and we loved it regardless. hehhe,So i can feel you on that, there is always that paart of me who hopes that this game gets fixed or improves to something it was close to being originally. Ill admit i been playing since july 2003 off andon, and still pop my head back into the game to see what has stirred up.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
Originally posted by MonoFader Well...this would have been a great editorial 3-4 months ago...now it's just out-dated...since beta, i have been, and will always stick to the game...it's a great concept, and 3 years later, they are finally fixing the problems.
If anything, posts like this prove why the editorial is not & will never be out of date, as long as Sony operates the title. "They are finally fixing the problems"?? Do you know how many months and years you can go back in the forums and read this immortal mantra? There has NEVER been a time, no matter how broken or ridiculous things were, that you couldn't find someone to say "Well they are finally fixing the problems." What's become clear over time is that while SOE has a fairly dismal and slow record of actually fixing stuff, they are Kung Fu Masters at spreading the impression that they are fixing stuff. For people who need to believe that "teh devz" know what they're doing, there's always just enough apparent evidence out there to keep their faith alive. And that's the glue that has kept the shambling wreck of SWG together.
As a frequent swg forum member, i dont see anymore goodbye posts, the "welcome me back" posts are on the incline...they are FIXING the game finally...the decision to not produce an expansion pack this year was the best decision that could have be made, and i commend SOE for doing that. Instead of trying to make more money that way, they are fixing what they now realize is "broken".
As a frequent party giver at my home, I threw one the other night, the guests started leaving about 11pm and you know what? by 12:30 or so, I didn't hear any more "Goodnights" from the front door. But I did not interpret this to mean there were more people in my house than ever! I interpreted it to mean that everyone who was leaving had left - that the party was over. Similarly, most people who knew and loved the game and were sick to their stomach at the NGE are already gone. There's no sense listening for their goodbyes this week. If all you're saying is that the curve has bottomed out and people are trickling in, that may be so, but none of it had to happen in the first place, which was the point of the editorial.
And the changes they're making to the game now - in precisely the same old high handed mysterious way of course - are enough to fill any vet with deranged laughter. After swearing on a stack of Bibles with total assurance that what the audience really wanted was a much simpler game without all the complications, the learning curve, the stuff to read - and after locking, deleting and banning skeptics left and right to underscore their unshakeable commitment to this revealed truth - they are busy adding complication back in by the bucketload. Only now the complication is ad hoc, rather than part of a well thought out initial game design. Oh, and of course, your complicated old character, old skills, old equipment etc, are still long gone. But you're welcome to grind out a complicated new one - until they change things again.
The decision not to release an expansion pack undoubtedly has less to do with a virtuous focus on "finally fixing the problems" than with a Sony decision not to throw good money after bad. The previous packs have not expanded the subscriber base, and Sony cannot justify the investment. SWG will have to sink or swim on its existing boxes.
I have been reading about how people are in love with the game, are they really in love with the game; or is it the theme of the game? I mean if it was any other theme besides Star Wars would this game have done so well as it has under so many pressures? I think not. I think most are so in love with the Star Wars theme you ask most that still play. They have watch the movies multi times and still at home. They have read most of the books if not all. The have toy light sabres and ect.... are they really in love with the game or is it really just the name, 'Star Wars.'
I believe if this game had any other name or theme related to it; it would have fallin flat on it's face 6 months after release and would have never been heard of again.
Being a day one veteran of SWG I think your editorial hit the nail on the head. Time and effort should have been put into fixing bugs and adding monthly content to the original game instead of breaking it over and over for 3 yrs.
One of the major mistakes (besides releasing the game before it was ready) was trying to balance other professions with an alpha class profession...which you can't do. If they had given other classes a path to an alpha class, they would have added both balance AND content to the game instead of constant nerfing.
Obviously they were too busy working on boxed expansions to add monthly content and try to fix the core game. Sounds like greed was the main influence.
Excellent article and as much as I'd like to say after the abuse SOE gave me after spending so much time developing my chars, (started day after launch), that I'd NEVER give them another dime I'd have to admit that if a classic pre-CU server opened I'd most likely have all three accounts back open to play on it.
Or I can play the upcoming Roma Victor and SOE can enjoy it's empty NGE servers themselves.
One thing is sure though, Hell will freeze before I play another fantasy Elf hunting Orcs in ANY game ever again.
I was a day one subscriber to Star Wars: Galaxies. What more is there to say. I enjoyed the game as it was pre-cu, even though it was in dire need of some bug fixes and actual content addition, but the sandbox style of the game made it possible for people to play it even without a true end game or a fully functional GCW.
Then the hologrind for Jedi was dropped on the playerbase, just in time for Christmas I might add, so now people knew what they were doing, grinding multiple professions to unlock their Jedi. As another poster stated this was the beginning of the end for SWG. Nothing ripped apart guilds, or the game, faster than mindless grinding to get their god mode character.
I still communicate with my SWG guildies on our own forums all the time. About 25 people still play the game. Its a far cry from the 100+ members the guild had at its peak, but I can communicate with them too... in the WoW section of the same forums.
I've also stated on numerous occasions, on the SWG boards (while I still could), on my guild's boards, on the Stargate Worlds forums, the Lord of the Rings boards and a few other places, that the gaming industry as a whole seems to be releasing increasingly flawed and crappy products simply because they know they can get away with it. There is a reason why consoles want their X-box lives and their subscription services... its so they don't have to put as much effort into the original design of the game, they can simply release patches later to fix all the bugs.
Its a consumer product and one of the few that consistently requires repairs to make the original product work as intended.
AS a 24 year old male who still owns his Commodore 64, Atari, NES, SNES, SEGA Genesis, and PS1 I know a few things about games, and have owned a fair number.
My gaming purchases are down to an all time low. I'm pulling out games I played from 3 and 4 years ago simply because when installed they actually work as intended and don't require 5 different patches. There are few games released lately that I can say the same about.
BF2 Sims 2 Civ 4 (was fine as original, new patches have added content and fixed multiplayer lobbies mainly) Dungeon Seige
That pretty much ends my list. I'm not exactly into a ton of genre's. I won't buy Lucas Arts products again. Battlefront 2 was a complete pile of steaming dog shit. Empire at War while entertaining took me about 10 hours of game time to beat, and one can only play the same thing over and over again so much.
After what was done with SWg I no longer will by anything with Sony's name on it. Not jsut Sony Online Entertainment, sony as a whole. I've taken my electronics business to Samsung.
In the end disrespecting your customers will cost you, and in more ways than one. Whether anyone will learn from it is yet to be seen.
Originally posted by Amathe I beta tested this game and played it for 6-9 months after release. This article is right (though there were other major problems). Never in my life have I experienced such arrogance as with SOE and SWG. To say they wouldn't listen is like saying the ocean is wet, or that outer space is big. You just can't do justice to the magnitude of the concept with words. SOE is saying things NOW that were told to them in beta by many people, including me. Only back then, they not only didn't listen, they locked your threads as being "unconstructive." According to SOE, no matter what people express on message boards, there is always this "silent majority" of players who love everything they do. That's like saying if there is some axal breaking pothole on the highway, and a handful of concerned citizens call into complain, everyone else LOVED THE POTHOLE.
If you feel you haven't seen arrogance as bad as SOE's, then play WoW and try to deal with Blizzard. They are right on par with SOE on the rudeness to customers and neglect of players. Why else would a game with over 5 million subscribers take over 2 years to put out an expansion and release more raiding content over and over again?
That being said, I think this article was right on. And I think it makes it clear that the success of WoW is going to change the MMO market in the future for the worse. Everyone is going to try to measure up to WoW's market success instead of trying to be a success as a great game.
It seems now everything is going to be measured in subscription numbers instead of dedicated happy customers. And I am personally not looking forward to it all.
I love that Blizzard had a successful game with WoW. But I hate that it's going to change the MMO world to simple, streamlined, stuck on easy gameplay and horrible audience of players for all the future MMO's.
Great article Kevin, and all of it absolutely true! SOE is the WORST company I have ever dealt with. Thier complete arrogance in dealing with their customer base is unbeleivable. I hope they rot!
I'm more surprised that it took MMORPG so long to print something of this nature. I've been one of a number of people in and within the periphery of the industry who has been screaming this story since the days this started happening. Way too often, my articles were either shut down by forum devs of all different types of boards, especially the Sony ones, or we were shouted down by fanbois with the infamous "if you don't like it, leave" attitude.
So, I left. I hated leaving because I knew there was so much promise with this game right from the day it was released. Where else could you roleplay to the extent of that game or pvp with people like you were a kid again running around with a stick you called a lightsaber, even if you couldn't be a jedi.
Now, Sony has so dirtied the names of MMORPGs that I won't play any of their games anymore. I'm avoiding Vanguard JUST because it has even a cursory connection to Sony. These days, I take great pleasure in remaining on SOE's mailing list because every time they send me an advertisement for their "new" features, it gives me great pleasure to read through it and then delete it, knowing their crap/advertisements will never fool me into playing one of their games again.
Greed truly killed a great game. This is why I wouldn't go back to SWG even if they went back to the very first incantation of what it first was. It would still be the same greedy people running the show, and I'm not assisting them in buying anymore Ferraris when they couldn't take the time to show up and fix a gazillion problems that made the game practically unplayable in too many situations.
*** For those of you condeming DDO, please read this: ***
First, I played the beta and while it was an interesting change, I didn't like it. I though that it was horrible that a mage couldn't recover mana by just resting.
However, I respect the company for developing a different style game for a niche market. There are a group of players whole like this style of game and for them i say great, hope you have fun and appreciate a company that has risked developing a game that chosen not to make a WoW clone.
Those that condem SOE for changing SWG to be more like WoW and then put down DDO for not being more like WoW are hippocrits who need to stop and think about what they are saying. If we want more diversity in the types of games available, then we shouldn't condem games just because they don't happen to fit our style of play.
Originally posted by dadown *** For those of you condeming DDO, please read this: *** First, I played the beta and while it was an interesting change, I didn't like it. I though that it was horrible that a mage couldn't recover mana by just resting. However, I respect the company for developing a different style game for a niche market. There are a group of players whole like this style of game and for them i say great, hope you have fun and appreciate a company that has risked developing a game that chosen not to make a WoW clone. Those that condem SOE for changing SWG to be more like WoW and then put down DDO for not being more like WoW are hippocrits who need to stop and think about what they are saying. If we want more diversity in the types of games available, then we shouldn't condem games just because they don't happen to fit our style of play.
Originally posted by Mna_Grok Originally posted by DrChewbacca Originally posted by Mna_Grok I am honestly not sure why people are reading this article like it is a brand new business paradigm that will revolutionize MMORPGs.
The article can be summed up in two sentances:
1 - Don't piss off current customers in a bid to get new customers.
2 - (Potential) new customers are greatly influenced by the words of old customers. (both currently subscribed and not)
These are not new ideas. They form the basis of any business' relationship with it's customers.
Hey, thank you for your brilliant analysis. The article is not about these ideas being new. It's about a rather big company obviously ignoring these ideas that seems so basic for us normal customers. Including you. This is what's interesting there.
My comment was more aimed at all of the posters in the thread who are screaming "Great analysis" and stuff like that.
The editorial is not, IMO, a great analysis of what went wrong. It is a simple statement of what went wrong with SWG. SOE made a gamble and lost. That is all there is to it.
Now an in-depth analysis of why they decided to change the classes would be interesting. But this editorial, not really.
The reason they made the changes was because they reasoned the "silent majority" wanted things "simple" and "iconic." That's all part of the gamble. Hence that was covered. Or do I have to explicitly go after everything?
I cancelled within a few weeks of NGE...then resubbed in March...cancelled again almost immediately...
The Community Summit was a JOKE, with the developers being entirely unwilling to bend on ANY issue of concern to the SWG gamers...
I am STILL, six months later, VERY angry at how SOE treated me and everyone else!
I lost all I had worked so hard to attain (Master Tailor / Master Dancer / Merchant) and SOE could care less!
Fine...I'll continue playing Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and to hell with SOE...and nice not to have the monthly fees!
Have to say though, I DO miss the SWG universe, I am a BIG Star Wars nerd-grrrl with a house in RL to prove it (SW stuff everywhere!). Nothing can compare to a SW MMORPG...so I would definitely be tempted to re-sub if Pre-CU or even Pre-NGE were brought back
I think this article is one of the best-crafted things I have ever read on the subject. The one interjection I would have is that we should consider walking in Julio's shoes. (I chose Julio because he has been there since the beginning.)
So. put yourselves in Julio or any producers shoes. YOU are the producer for a game released to a genre that is rapidly becoming the new "Big Thing". Not only you working on such a mainstream title, but also the title is connected to arguably the greatest licensing franchise of all time, Star Wars!
The game is built, released and... it does well.
However, it ONLY does “well”. It fails to eclipse is predecessor EQ, even though its graphics are better, the scope is larger, and did I mention Star Wars.
Sure the game does quite well for its time, but its NOT doing as well as executives expected. Questions are raised, but since this is a new field, how can the executives, mostly unfamiliar with gaming, measure the actual success of the game.
Then along come WoW. Holy $#!+. That’s not a measuring stick, it’s a small moon!
Questions that were left unsaid start to get asked... and you hatch a desperate but logical plan. The same was too much about "living Star Wars" and it needs to be more about "playing Star Wars". Many of us work and pay for houses and keep them repaired every day. Those of us that do, likely are not that interested in having our escapist hobby suddenly mirror life virtually in a pretty Star Wars based universe. So, based on the assessment you make the logical conclusion to change things and make the game a GAME.
But alas with all eyes on the prize no one considers the truth. Gamers keep an eye out for the NEXT big thing. We do not look for yesterdays "Big Thing" rehashed. Making changes in an attempt to acquire a culture looking for NEW things with rehashed things fails. At the same time you are alienating all those who invested their blood, sweat and tears into the existing system. I am quite positive that there were people pointing this very concept out both at SOE and LEC. But when their is the potential for a prize.. people who rock the boat and upset the happy notions about fixing things get ignored.
I guess in the end, what I am saying is, Kevin is beautifully and eloquently correct in his view of what happened.
However, lets not place all the blame for what occurred at the feet of LEC and SOE. They did what any logical person would do to try to make things better, and that is change it based on percieved needs.
Perhaps all of us who were fans should have been a bit more vocal in helping promote the game we loved so that the "evil corporations" don't feel the need to change our little fantasy worlds. Its we who make or break a title.
Ask yourself this. How many people did you tell today about how great whatever game you are playing to fill your escapist needs? Moreover, did you tell them in a way that will bring new people into the game?
Comments
[quote]In a world that requires consistent subscription fees to continue to
have a viable game, the customer will not pay for games to advance
their characters, only to see all that work eliminated constantly[/quote]
I agree with ALL of this but this one statement. For a perfect example, look at Guild Wars. No subscription fees at all, and they are offering contests where you can win $100,000. It is their Guild vs. Guild championships.
In all reality, if a game is well received and popular, there is no need for subscription fees. For example:
300,000 subscribers pay $50 to buy the game. That equals $15,000,000. Then come out with a yearly expansion pack adding new chapters (such as GW is doing) onto the story for 40 dollars. If only 200,000 people buy that it will still equal $8,000,000. How much money do you need? That's around 23 million dollars in the first year alone. Then if you release another 1 or 2 expansions per year that's an additional 8-16 million if 200k keep buying them. NCSoft and it's developers have proven that you can make a killing with no subscription fees. They are doing it. They are nowhere near bankrupt or broke. They have long since broken even and are making a profit. And guess what? That's without subscription fees.
I used to play SWG a lot.... I've got over 400 hours logged on it. But since GW came out, I just can't justify paying $15 a month just for the privilige to play any online game anymore. Sure GW may not appeal to everyone, but the system they are using definately can and does work. Maybe more software companies will catch on and start following this.
They have also proven that they are listening to the players, but will not enact changes that will nerf the game. At least I haven't seen anything that has yet.
If you bought yourself a Mercedez and you made regular payments on it for years (you even loved it so much you bought a second one!) and you spent countless hours and more money fine tuning them to perfection and then one day you go to your garage and find an *Edsel how happy do you think you would be?
Thanks SOE for turning my Mercedez into an Edsel
*the Edsel was an automotive diseaster, failed in every way to attract or keep customers.
One would onnly hope that something good will come of this, but in reality it probably wont.
Lets face it, the arrogance shown by ( some of ) SoE here is not something you just shrug of, we are talking Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein etc, pathological megalomania, a first step would be to admit you have a problem and the second would be to actually go into some kind of therapy for it.
Very few get past the first stage of that.
Well then we can at least hope others will learn from their misstakes?
Do not think so, some will of course but people who ponder others misstakes are allready far enough on the path to self scrutiny that they will probably make the rigth decisions anyway, or at the very least stand up to any screw ups they make.
Take a look at AO, arguably one of the most horrible launches in MMO history, allthough they are somewhat redeemed by today they will never reach what they could have become.
Then Horizons do pretty much the same thing.
And now look at DDO.
Another angle would be Mourning, allthough that never really released.
Now shortly followed by DnL, allthough not the scam Mourning was the word is out and it is not good.
If we analyze this further we also lost some things that we should not have, I am talking about Wish, wich was pulled probably because recent track records of other MMO's, but in ligth of everything it would probably have made it big time. ( Allthough a silver lining would be that we got a few nice guest writers here as a couple of the DEVs from Wish pops in now and then if I am not misstaken ).
The MMO scene today looks more and more like when you use a mirror on a sunny day to fool your dog, it will run into the wall over and over again to catch that reflection, getting more dizzy each time and less able to figure out that he will never catch it.
Just substitute that reflection with a dollar bill and BAM, that analogy is spot on.
( No animals were hurt in any way during this post, In fact I do not even own a dog, anymore ).
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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All i got to say it god bless kevin! Words could not be truer. You are a man of exacting emotion evoking words. All he just said, i dont think anyone could of really said in fewer words with such clarity, conciseness, and straight to the jugular in your face direct. <CLAPS>
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
Umbrood your correct in those points. very well put, These companies should seriiously take heed to the fragile existance that a MMO holds when a Company forgoes its most important customers, VETS.
DDO ?? aww man dont even get me started. that POS shouldnt even have a monthly fee. All they offer I can get and more with Guild Wars with no monthly Fee. I foree it dropping off the map in a matter of months. Its one of the few instances where these Companies have such arrogant clout to assume they know what we want and need.
This 'silent majority" never materializes, and the Rest of the Players "veterans" who put countless hours into a game into a agame that they once loved, go up in smoke to be pushed to the side for a "subcriber base" doesnt even exist. It boggles the mind the Logic they presume to follow.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
I think one sentence sums up what we all feel when it comes to MMO's
THERE ARE TOO MANY FOLLOWERS, AND NOT ENOUGH LEADERS!!
explanation?? this would be rather than progress , and revolutionize, and innovate, Companies take the same cookie cutter recipe from award winning innovative MMO's and splice, and clone, or alter it to be similar but not exactly as spectaculer as the latter.
Needless to say I think its safe to say we are being MMO'd to death. There are wayyyyy too many MMO's coming out that sholdnt even be out, too many companies hoping to cash in a market to get a piece of the pie. And You can be right to assume they are smart to do so, but, i repeat, but only if they innovate, progress and revolutinize the current market/genre they are attempting to dive into.
A short list of the all the pretenders, agree or disagree up to you.
AC2, E&B, SWG(after it turned NGE and kicked all the vets to the curb), DnL, AO (absolutely inexcusable revolting launch) DDO (slowly festering into the black hole of MMO oblivion never to be seen again, i give it 6 months a year maybe good riddance, go PLAY GUILD WARS and save $15 a month)
any a really missed?? Im tired its 830 am i just came off work hehe so
fill in any that pretends but cant reallly contend!
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
Well...this would have been a great editorial 3-4 months ago...now it's just out-dated...since beta, i have been, and will always stick to the game...it's a great concept, and 3 years later, they are finally fixing the problems. As a frequent swg forum member, i dont see anymore goodbye posts, the "welcome me back" posts are on the incline...they are FIXING the game finally...the decision to not produce an expansion pack this year was the best decision that could have be made, and i commend SOE for doing that. Instead of trying to make more money that way, they are fixing what they now realize is "broken". SO IMHO this editorial was unfair, and late.
just my 2 creds
/flame away
Lhynius Blake
-Elder Master Smuggler-
SWG Always!!!
Nice editorial. It's sad what they did to that great game... I never had so much fun in vide game then when I started SWG. It was massive game. If they would only be fixing buys and adding new (bug free) contat... I would be playing this game for 3 more years or atleast till SWG2 would hit us.
Shame. Was a good game.
My comment was more aimed at all of the posters in the thread who are screaming "Great analysis" and stuff like that.
The editorial is not, IMO, a great analysis of what went wrong. It is a simple statement of what went wrong with SWG. SOE made a gamble and lost. That is all there is to it.
Now an in-depth analysis of why they decided to change the classes would be interesting. But this editorial, not really.
3.4ghz Phenom II X4 965, 8GB PC12800 DDR3 GSKILL, EVGA 560GTX 2GB OC, 640GB HD SATA II, BFG 1000WATT PSU. MSI NF980-G65 TRI-SLI MOBO.
And the changes they're making to the game now - in precisely the same old high handed mysterious way of course - are enough to fill any vet with deranged laughter. After swearing on a stack of Bibles with total assurance that what the audience really wanted was a much simpler game without all the complications, the learning curve, the stuff to read - and after locking, deleting and banning skeptics left and right to underscore their unshakeable commitment to this revealed truth - they are busy adding complication back in by the bucketload. Only now the complication is ad hoc, rather than part of a well thought out initial game design. Oh, and of course, your complicated old character, old skills, old equipment etc, are still long gone. But you're welcome to grind out a complicated new one - until they change things again.
The decision not to release an expansion pack undoubtedly has less to do with a virtuous focus on "finally fixing the problems" than with a Sony decision not to throw good money after bad. The previous packs have not expanded the subscriber base, and Sony cannot justify the investment. SWG will have to sink or swim on its existing boxes.
I have been reading about how people are in love with the game, are they really in love with the game; or is it the theme of the game? I mean if it was any other theme besides Star Wars would this game have done so well as it has under so many pressures? I think not. I think most are so in love with the Star Wars theme you ask most that still play. They have watch the movies multi times and still at home. They have read most of the books if not all. The have toy light sabres and ect.... are they really in love with the game or is it really just the name, 'Star Wars.'
I believe if this game had any other name or theme related to it; it would have fallin flat on it's face 6 months after release and would have never been heard of again.
Being a day one veteran of SWG I think your editorial hit the nail on the head. Time and effort should have been put into fixing bugs and adding monthly content to the original game instead of breaking it over and over for 3 yrs.
One of the major mistakes (besides releasing the game before it was ready) was trying to balance other professions with an alpha class profession...which you can't do. If they had given other classes a path to an alpha class, they would have added both balance AND content to the game instead of constant nerfing.
Obviously they were too busy working on boxed expansions to add monthly content and try to fix the core game. Sounds like greed was the main influence.
Well...I hope they choke on it.
Or I can play the upcoming Roma Victor and SOE can enjoy it's empty NGE servers themselves.
One thing is sure though, Hell will freeze before I play another fantasy Elf hunting Orcs in ANY game ever again.
Then the hologrind for Jedi was dropped on the playerbase, just in time for Christmas I might add, so now people knew what they were doing, grinding multiple professions to unlock their Jedi. As another poster stated this was the beginning of the end for SWG. Nothing ripped apart guilds, or the game, faster than mindless grinding to get their god mode character.
I still communicate with my SWG guildies on our own forums all the time. About 25 people still play the game. Its a far cry from the 100+ members the guild had at its peak, but I can communicate with them too... in the WoW section of the same forums.
I've also stated on numerous occasions, on the SWG boards (while I still could), on my guild's boards, on the Stargate Worlds forums, the Lord of the Rings boards and a few other places, that the gaming industry as a whole seems to be releasing increasingly flawed and crappy products simply because they know they can get away with it. There is a reason why consoles want their X-box lives and their subscription services... its so they don't have to put as much effort into the original design of the game, they can simply release patches later to fix all the bugs.
Its a consumer product and one of the few that consistently requires repairs to make the original product work as intended.
AS a 24 year old male who still owns his Commodore 64, Atari, NES, SNES, SEGA Genesis, and PS1 I know a few things about games, and have owned a fair number.
My gaming purchases are down to an all time low. I'm pulling out games I played from 3 and 4 years ago simply because when installed they actually work as intended and don't require 5 different patches. There are few games released lately that I can say the same about.
BF2
Sims 2
Civ 4 (was fine as original, new patches have added content and fixed multiplayer lobbies mainly)
Dungeon Seige
That pretty much ends my list. I'm not exactly into a ton of genre's. I won't buy Lucas Arts products again. Battlefront 2 was a complete pile of steaming dog shit. Empire at War while entertaining took me about 10 hours of game time to beat, and one can only play the same thing over and over again so much.
After what was done with SWg I no longer will by anything with Sony's name on it. Not jsut Sony Online Entertainment, sony as a whole. I've taken my electronics business to Samsung.
In the end disrespecting your customers will cost you, and in more ways than one. Whether anyone will learn from it is yet to be seen.
That being said, I think this article was right on. And I think it makes it clear that the success of WoW is going to change the MMO market in the future for the worse. Everyone is going to try to measure up to WoW's market success instead of trying to be a success as a great game.
It seems now everything is going to be measured in subscription numbers instead of dedicated happy customers. And I am personally not looking forward to it all.
I love that Blizzard had a successful game with WoW. But I hate that it's going to change the MMO world to simple, streamlined, stuck on easy gameplay and horrible audience of players for all the future MMO's.
Great article Kevin, and all of it absolutely true! SOE is the WORST company I have ever dealt with. Thier complete arrogance in dealing with their customer base is unbeleivable. I hope they rot!
I'm more surprised that it took MMORPG so long to print something of this nature. I've been one of a number of people in and within the periphery of the industry who has been screaming this story since the days this started happening. Way too often, my articles were either shut down by forum devs of all different types of boards, especially the Sony ones, or we were shouted down by fanbois with the infamous "if you don't like it, leave" attitude.
So, I left. I hated leaving because I knew there was so much promise with this game right from the day it was released. Where else could you roleplay to the extent of that game or pvp with people like you were a kid again running around with a stick you called a lightsaber, even if you couldn't be a jedi.
Now, Sony has so dirtied the names of MMORPGs that I won't play any of their games anymore. I'm avoiding Vanguard JUST because it has even a cursory connection to Sony. These days, I take great pleasure in remaining on SOE's mailing list because every time they send me an advertisement for their "new" features, it gives me great pleasure to read through it and then delete it, knowing their crap/advertisements will never fool me into playing one of their games again.
Greed truly killed a great game. This is why I wouldn't go back to SWG even if they went back to the very first incantation of what it first was. It would still be the same greedy people running the show, and I'm not assisting them in buying anymore Ferraris when they couldn't take the time to show up and fix a gazillion problems that made the game practically unplayable in too many situations.
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
*** For those of you condeming DDO, please read this: ***
First, I played the beta and while it was an interesting change, I didn't like it. I though that it was horrible that a mage couldn't recover mana by just resting.
However, I respect the company for developing a different style game for a niche market. There are a group of players whole like this style of game and for them i say great, hope you have fun and appreciate a company that has risked developing a game that chosen not to make a WoW clone.
Those that condem SOE for changing SWG to be more like WoW and then put down DDO for not being more like WoW are hippocrits who need to stop and think about what they are saying. If we want more diversity in the types of games available, then we shouldn't condem games just because they don't happen to fit our style of play.
There are only 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't
My comment was more aimed at all of the posters in the thread who are screaming "Great analysis" and stuff like that.
The editorial is not, IMO, a great analysis of what went wrong. It is a simple statement of what went wrong with SWG. SOE made a gamble and lost. That is all there is to it.
Now an in-depth analysis of why they decided to change the classes would be interesting. But this editorial, not really.
The reason they made the changes was because they reasoned the "silent majority" wanted things "simple" and "iconic." That's all part of the gamble. Hence that was covered. Or do I have to explicitly go after everything?
Never satisfied hehe.
Thanks for such an eloquent editorial!
I cancelled within a few weeks of NGE...then resubbed in March...cancelled again almost immediately...
The Community Summit was a JOKE, with the developers being entirely unwilling to bend on ANY issue of concern to the SWG gamers...
I am STILL, six months later, VERY angry at how SOE treated me and everyone else!
I lost all I had worked so hard to attain (Master Tailor / Master Dancer / Merchant) and SOE could care less!
Fine...I'll continue playing Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and to hell with SOE...and nice not to have the monthly fees!
Have to say though, I DO miss the SWG universe, I am a BIG Star Wars nerd-grrrl with a house in RL to prove it (SW stuff everywhere!). Nothing can compare to a SW MMORPG...so I would definitely be tempted to re-sub if Pre-CU or even Pre-NGE were brought back
I think this article is one of the best-crafted things I
have ever read on the subject. The one interjection I would have is that we
should consider walking in Julio's shoes. (I chose Julio because he has been
there since the beginning.)
So. put yourselves in Julio or any producers shoes. YOU are the producer for a game released to a genre that is
rapidly becoming the new "Big Thing". Not only you working on such a
mainstream title, but also the title is connected to arguably the greatest
licensing franchise of all time, Star Wars!
The game is built, released and... it does well.
However, it ONLY does “well”. It fails to eclipse is predecessor EQ, even
though its graphics are better, the scope is larger, and did I mention Star
Wars.
Sure the game does quite well for its time, but its NOT doing as well as executives expected. Questions are raised,
but since this is a new field, how can the executives, mostly unfamiliar with
gaming, measure the actual success of the game.
Then along come WoW. Holy $#!+. That’s not a measuring stick, it’s a small
moon!
Questions that were left unsaid start to get asked... and you hatch a desperate
but logical plan. The same was too much about "living Star Wars" and
it needs to be more about "playing Star Wars". Many of us work and
pay for houses and keep them repaired every day. Those of us that do, likely
are not that interested in having our escapist hobby suddenly mirror life
virtually in a pretty Star Wars based universe. So, based on the assessment you
make the logical conclusion to change things and make the game a GAME.
But alas with all eyes on the prize no one considers the truth. Gamers keep an
eye out for the NEXT big thing. We do not look for yesterdays "Big
Thing" rehashed. Making changes in an attempt to acquire a culture
looking for NEW things with rehashed things fails. At the same time you are alienating all those who invested their blood, sweat and tears into the
existing system. I am quite positive that there were people pointing this very
concept out both at SOE and LEC. But when their is the potential for a prize..
people who rock the boat and upset the happy notions about fixing things get
ignored.
I guess in the end, what I am saying is, Kevin is beautifully and eloquently
correct in his view of what happened.
However, lets not place all the blame for what occurred at the feet of LEC and
SOE. They did what any logical person would do to try to make things better, and that is change it based on percieved needs.
Perhaps all of us who were fans should have been a bit more vocal in helping
promote the game we loved so that the "evil corporations" don't feel
the need to change our little fantasy worlds. Its we who make or break a title.
Ask yourself this. How many people did you tell today about how great whatever
game you are playing to fill your escapist needs? Moreover, did you tell them
in a way that will bring new people into the game?