The thing that people fail to realize is that hardcore PvP creates a tightly knit community. Back in the good days of Asheron's Call, PvP brought people together for more reasons than just 'people to group with'. I think people have simply been confusing what it is that they enjoyed about the hardcore PvP that existed back in the old days of UO, AC, and EQ.
The consequences for PvP balanced out with the good things. You had friends who PvPed and you stuck together. Entire guilds were formed which were based completely around PvP, and you always had friends to get your back while you were out grouping/questing and such.
People say that they just want looting, FFA PvP, etc.. but they don't really think of why they want it, which leads the people who have never PvPed in that environment to believe that it is just a kid's world of trash talking and bragging rights.
I still remember the days of Rallos Zek back in Everquest. You had PvP, which was guild vs. guild, and guild vs random PKers. Then, entire guilds of just pure PKers were formed, and they stuck together. The politics involved in the system were what made the game fun. If one person killed the wrong person in another guild, a war between the guilds would get started and it was fun. The looting didn't matter.. some people were honorable and chose not to loot even though they could. Same thing back in Asheron's Call. You had people who looted, and people who were in it for the good competitive fights, not knowing wether or not the person they were fighting would loot them if they lost.
Like I said.. people are all for FFA PvP and looting, but they forget why. It doesn't have to do with the actual act of looting.. it has to do with the community and in-game politics that this style of gameplay creates.
Originally posted by Sheista I still remember the days of Rallos Zek back in Everquest. You had PvP, which was guild vs. guild, and guild vs random PKers. Then, entire guilds of just pure PKers were formed, and they stuck together. The politics involved in the system were what made the game fun. If one person killed the wrong person in another guild, a war between the guilds would get started and it was fun. The looting didn't matter.. some people were honorable and chose not to loot even though they could. Same thing back in Asheron's Call. You had people who looted, and people who were in it for the good competitive fights, not knowing wether or not the person they were fighting would loot them if they lost.Like I said.. people are all for FFA PvP and looting, but they forget why. It doesn't have to do with the actual act of looting.. it has to do with the community and in-game politics that this style of gameplay creates.
Sounds just like L2.
Many people mistakenly think "open PvP" = kill everyone you see... which is totally wrong. Nobody does that in an Open PvP enviroment from what I have experienced. Open PvP only means you will have to suffer the consenqence for your own action. You kill someone, that person's buddies/clan/alliance might come after you. You can kill anyone, anyone can kill you too. So be careful what you do.
On the other hand, race based PvP games are close to kill everyone... from the other side you can see...
Originally posted by Gameloading I really don't understand how those so called "hardcore" pvpers first need all kinds of consequences and item loss before they even consider to start pvp. I completely fail to understand what is so fun about losing your items to a person much higher level/must stronger then myself, because fair fights are rare. very rare. don't get me wrong, I love pvp. and if a game doesn't have pvp, then chances are I won't stick around for long. but for me, its the pvp itself that I enjoy, not the consequences, item loss or even reward.
You just don't understand. You never will. Hardcore PvP games don't have gigantic level differences, they usually use a system more like Ultima Online's. Skills allow you to choose what you want. You gain the skills that you train. You don't get an overall level for grinding on certain level monsters. If you had played a game like this, then you would understand that FFA PvP, free loot and harsh consequences are needed. You're thinking about WoW PvP -- and that isn't PvP. This was what the OP was trying to explain.
OP, don't give up on Darkfall just yet. Beta is around the corner, and the game they had in 2003 is practically gone. They completely overhauled the graphics and have hired many new developers. Just hold out until 2007.
I really don't think there will be any chance of pvper's dying out, it makes the game better (At least in my opinion anyway.). There's a challenge in pvp you'll never find in pve, although both can be enjoyable. Its more than a little stupid that just because someone does or doesn't like pvp it gets you some label that doesn't even make sense really. As for the "carebears" and "RAID OR DIE" comments at the beginning of the forum its that kind of crap that makes pvpers look like idiots. There will always be someone out there who is gonna act like an ass if pvp is available, but more often than not they get stomped enough that they get sick of the game and quit anyway. At one time L2, Shadowbane and a couple of other ones had people who would watch over weaker characters to make sure they didn't get jumped. If there is anything that will kill pvp its gonna be the lack of effect it has on the game, personally speaking I'd like to have a war in game and have it really make a difference in the game world.
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
lol, you sure you are talking pvp? Or Pker/ganking! I think you are upset because you cant go kill a noob with that one item that he just got and say"OMGWTFIOWNEDU" and take the lowbies item. PVP exists! Play EVE. I have litterally watched players and corps lose everything they had due to pvp. PKers/Gankers are a classic example of Fvktards with a broomstick up there arse! /flame on.. £3rN +0 p£Å¥!!!
Nothing like stupidity from others, lets you know what you lack!
Beilieve it or not, our OP is pretty much 90% correct. Other posts Ive read are also correct.
A real PvP game is something that encourages player interaction and grouping, probably moreso than PvE. You have to watch your back, and you need allies to do it. It gave a dynamic to the game that these other current MMO's simply dont give you. Its REAL gameplay, its REAL people. And you know what? I found something downright blasphemous, downright hypocritical:
I honestly dont get why people love to play against an AI, when they are there to play MULTIPLAYER. YOU COME TO PLAY MMO'S TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, YET EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER.
And then you say people dont like the hardcore aspect of Pvp, becuase of losing your items and getting killed. Of getting ganked, of letting the gankers get happy off killing you. What happened to the gamer population?
When you get killed, you die. Ok - so you die. You lose an item. Big deal. Jeez people, what has happened to the gamer population? If you have NO CONSEQUENCES, the game will be BORING. And did you ever forget you can do the same thing to that other person? Wow people. Way to take away probably the biggest thing in games, player versus player. I remember back in the day, there was so much freedom, it was so damn fun. Its fun to kill other players and eventually sometimes be killed knowing you did a good job. Its fun chasing people, and its fun to feel your heartbeat race when you have 5 people running after you.
This is exactly what I predicted when WoW came out - people got bored of playing against a computer and having no consequences at death. Theres NO ADRENALINE in WoW, no adrenaline in any of these crap games. Thats why youre so bored, PvE'rs, becuase you came to play against a computer and there is NO SUCH THING AS DEATH. In essence, there is no point in playing, because there is no real competition. It is a Utopia. You dont die in a game, you become a "ghost." Happy? You got what you wanted. Now you reap what you sow.
Even on a different note to these whiners, I hear blizzard is wrecking their game and pandering by giving both Alliance and Horde theyre unique classes (Paladin and Shaman) to both sides, killing the spirit of their game. Good job pandering, Blizzard.
I'm really starting to see the carebear supporters (yes thats the term) and PvE'rs not as gamers. They are not gamers in my opinion anymore, they are some other half breed that somehow like the degration of sitting in front of their computer for 10 hours on a raid against a boss every time they log on.
Its a sad time, really. Hopefully someone will see the light.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
People are different, I think that's the real answer.
- Some people, like me, feel that if there is no consequence to your own (in)actions there's no drive to do it right, also there's more adrenaline flowing if there's a penalty for losing.
- Others like to epxlore, have fun and 'create stuff', funnily enough I like that part too. I loved wandering around in DAoC and WOW but always with other people as to me it's kinda odd to play online, and then go solo.
So I play EVE for the PVP, the running of a business and helping others, but I also play other MMO's just to be able to wield a sword, having a proper avatar and being a valiant knight or whatever
What made PVP in UO good was that it was THE mmo of its days. "Everybody" played it.
Today we can choose a PVE game if we prefer that or a PVP game if we like PVP. PVP'ers need PVE'ers or the game just turns to a Unreal server without depth. PVE'ers don't necessarily need the PVP'ers, but having them generates discussions and counteractions.
Doesn't EVE provide this today? It's not really the loot you want, is it? But rather affecting other players.
(note, I'm not a PVP player or ever tried UO. but I always played on PVP enabled, permadeath, hardcore RP-servers in NWN)
Early Ultima Online pvp was so intense at times, I would get rushes of adrenaline because of the extremely high level of risk, profit & loss.
I share your sentiment. I want more mmorpg action like that where at any moment you could lose all your shit and you had the power to gank shit from others as well.
I played UO Pre Tram and I say that when you came across some honorable pvp'ler it was fun. The most fun I ever had in my short pvp career. The moment you made eye contact, will he..., won't he.... Will I... Do I recognize the Name.... Maybe it would come to a battle, maybe it wouldn't. You know all that stuff what goes with good open pvp. But these peeps where far and few in between and even back then you had the gankers that after they have killed someone started to insult them and of course, not to forget, their mother as well with the most foul slang. So even someone who had an interest in pvp, would very fast think otherwise. And as then Trammel opened up, peeps fled out of Felucca to enjoy their game, their style. People where able to decide on which side they wanted to live on. And they did.
What I do not understand is simply that: Why should everyone respect the hardcore pvp'ler when they respect no one else and want everyone to play exactly their style. People are all different and find enjoyment in all different ways. All play their monthly fees and have the right to play their own way as long it is within the game mechanics.
Unconsented open pvp is very important in a mmorpg (like you have in Felucca) I find. But just as important is pvm and the decision of a player not to interact in pvp. My idea always been that you flag your character pvp or not, but you have to do it upon char creation and it is not allowed to be changed. In that way everyone could live happily next to each pother and enjoy their own playstyle. Non pvp chars could not interact in pvp or help someone who is currently in a pvp battle. But that is just my two cents.
I have always loved playing UO with and without pvp. Killing AI is to me currently more fun than killings player chars.
------------------------------------------------------ Do I ever sleep?
you destroyed your own genre when you made it unaproachable to mainstream: purposless kill on sight, annoying as hell appreviations for newbie(and an alteration of the meaning here) and owned, insults over a 8*20 rectangle of pixels, did i mention compulisive killing of new players.
so its mostly its your fault, and if you didn't do any of those(which i see unlikely in your genre), blame your fellows.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I honestly dont get why people love to play against an AI, when they are there to play MULTIPLAYER. YOU COME TO PLAY MMO'S TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, YET EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER.
I can explain it to ya in one simple sentence: The AI plays fair.
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I see a lot of talk about PVPers... My take on it is this. A true "hardcore PVPer" would never want to PVP someone who was not interested in it, or wasn't skilled. A true hardcore PVPer is someone who wants to fight other hardcore, skilled PVPers, in a fair battle, testing player skill against player skill. This is true in much the same way that a boxer, as an athlete, is happy to go up against someone in a ring with a referee, but would not normally start punching random weaklings on the street... Boxers don't do that because fighting in the ring is a sport, and a fair contest... and smacking people around on the street, is being a bully.
Asking to be able to shoot someone 30 levels below you in the back of the head is not being a hardcore PVPer any more than Evander Hollyfield asking the city to make it legal for him to beat up anyone he wants on the streets would be. It's being a bully.
I have said it before and will say it again, unless you get rid of levels HARDCORE PVP will either never exist or just plain suck ass. Let's do a quick comparison.
I am 6'2" tall, weigh 200lbs. and am 31 years old. I walk down to the local school yard where some 5 years olds are playing and start wooping the shit out of them, woot no one can take me I am a badass. This might be fun for a while but would get old and if you were the 5 year old I don't think it would be fun at all.
Also, Hardcore PVPers are absolutely the minority. Out of 10 million gamers worldwide there are probably only 50,000 of you.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Originally posted by seabass2003 I have said it before and will say it again, unless you get rid of levels HARDCORE PVP will either never exist or just plain suck ass. Let's do a quick comparison. I am 6'2" tall, weigh 200lbs. and am 31 years old. I walk down to the local school yard where some 5 years olds are playing and start wooping the shit out of them, woot no one can take me I am a badass. This might be fun for a while but would get old and if you were the 5 year old I don't think it would be fun at all. Also, Hardcore PVPers are absolutely the minority. Out of 10 million gamers worldwide there are probably only 50,000 of you.
YES 100% levels neeed to go and player skill needs to be more of the deciding factor then gear/skills. You are also correct in that us harcore PvP fiends are the minority ( and we even get put into 2 groups after that: Gankers- players who feed of the grief of killing lower level players and seldom challenge equal opponents. Wariors- True PvPer doesnt matter if u kill him he will just keep getting tougher and learning the game because he always challenged himself by fighting the best. The true PvPer is the rare type of pvper to and thats why most games do have "carebear" rulesets because if not the ASSHATS would take over lol.
I think the best Idea for PvP is Faction based where you can always attack or be attacked by the enemy faction but not your own and certain areas are pvp areas so if u want pvp go there and if not then dont.
Well, PvP is fun I must admit, but I don't play games just for PvP. Often PvP with looting and exp loss puts off new players to the game. FFA PvP is not the way to go. Games with set PvP areas are good, giving a player the choice to PvP or not. Also games with dedicated PvP servers are good. Many games have this kind of server. PvP also generates a lot of bad language, and name calling. If you have ever played Runescape you will know this, as the game is overrun with players running around and throwing the word "noob" at each other. FFA PvP often results in a childish community and in my opinion lowers the gaming experience.
LVL's and Epics, the biggest obstacle to fun PVP expirience. I guess for a player that enjoys PVP it's about the fight, not about the loot, and for fight to be fun and rewarding there needs to be as much skill involved as possible.
So, I say, be gone with epics, if there have to be epics, make them unique, so the only way to get them would be to kill a player who wears it. Make proffesions count and let the most powerfull items be made by other players, if there is gonna be a wow system where you need to spend too much time repeating the same thing to get what you want, I understand that we can't have looting, because if you loose once and lost your items, maybe you would try to get them back, but after second time, no wai hosai!
LVL's, thnx but no thnx, skills, now that sounds more promising, and practice by use, not by paying money to magicly know more. And no matter what the diference between two players and time played one should always had to have a chance if not to win but then to escape, that's one thing I appalud to in EVE PVP, if you watchout and see some shifty dude, get the hell out of there and ask questions later, even if that is your first day there, you can still warp away.... and you can always survive, let your guard down in a dangerous pocket of space, I'm sorry, you are just asking for it...
Fighting, now we're talking, I would like all out Tekken kickassage where you can have flawless victory if you realy know how to play your character, I know that kind of negates the whole point of loot and all that grind stuff, but I believe that someone out there has an idea how it could be done to bring all those things together.
I know much of things I wrote here have been discussed over and over, but you know how it is, you always hope that this will be the one post that will get things moving and start a revolution...
As for carebears, I can say I understand where they are comming from, and I realise that that is their playing style, but that is as far as I go, because as that other guy stated that he can't understand where are all theese PVP pro looting guys comming from, I say, I don't care if you think you deserve the respect real gamers do, and I like it that way, it gives color to the whole gaming population. Curently there are no PVP games, there are no adventure games, it's all pretty and most of it lacks the content, but as there once were games, you realy loved to play and you hold them dear to this day, I belive games like that will be made again, maybe not next year, but I think I sence the sands of time shifting.
I'm curently very interested in further development of 2Moons, not much people expected that there would be a high budget compleetly free game made, ever, and yet, with right people and the right ida everything realy is possible.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011
I honestly dont get why people love to play against an AI, when they are there to play MULTIPLAYER. YOU COME TO PLAY MMO'S TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, YET EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER.
I can explain it to ya in one simple sentence: The AI plays fair.
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I already predicted a reponse like this way before you even posted it. Its the same song, same tune being sung. If I got 100 bucks for every time someone said "People dont like PvP because of gankers ruining the fun" I would be rich.
Again like I said before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it. Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game. When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
Second, MMO's nowadays are so highly monitired exploiting usually get you banned within a day. So dont even give me that "AI doesnt cheat" crap. And even if players did exploit on a regular basis, its far better than playing with something that doesnt have a personality and doesnt think and has scripted moves. Ive come to play multiplayer, not against a stupid computer.
My theory of why there are so many PvE supporters out there is the fact that they are pandered and are grown into the sense of mentality that PvP is too "brutal" and "Not fun" yet you see so many people complaining about how boring it is. Guess what folks - you got what you wished for. Additionally, alot of new people to the MMO world have begun by playing WoW which is the standard PvE game based on leveling and items. This is sadly the only type of game that they know about, which is terrible.
Addressing another post -
Originally posted by SonofSeth LVL's and Epics, the biggest obstacle to fun PVP expirience. I guess for a player that enjoys PVP it's about the fight, not about the loot, and for fight to be fun and rewarding there needs to be as much skill involved as possible. So, I say, be gone with epics, if there have to be epics, make them unique, so the only way to get them would be to kill a player who wears it. Make proffesions count and let the most powerfull items be made by other players, if there is gonna be a wow system where you need to spend too much time repeating the same thing to get what you want, I understand that we can't have looting, because if you loose once and lost your items, maybe you would try to get them back, but after second time, no wai hosai! LVL's, thnx but no thnx, skills, now that sounds more promising, and practice by use, not by paying money to magicly know more. And no matter what the diference between two players and time played one should always had to have a chance if not to win but then to escape, that's one thing I appalud to in EVE PVP, if you watchout and see some shifty dude, get the hell out of there and ask questions later, even if that is your first day there, you can still warp away.... and you can always survive, let your guard down in a dangerous pocket of space, I'm sorry, you are just asking for it... Fighting, now we're talking, I would like all out Tekken kickassage where you can have flawless victory if you realy know how to play your character, I know that kind of negates the whole point of loot and all that grind stuff, but I believe that someone out there has an idea how it could be done to bring all those things together. I know much of things I wrote here have been discussed over and over, but you know how it is, you always hope that this will be the one post that will get things moving and start a revolution... As for carebears, I can say I understand where they are comming from, and I realise that that is their playing style, but that is as far as I go, because as that other guy stated that he can't understand where are all theese PVP pro looting guys comming from, I say, I don't care if you think you deserve the respect real gamers do, and I like it that way, it gives color to the whole gaming population. Curently there are no PVP games, there are no adventure games, it's all pretty and most of it lacks the content, but as there once were games, you realy loved to play and you hold them dear to this day, I belive games like that will be made again, maybe not next year, but I think I sence the sands of time shifting. I'm curently very interested in further development of 2Moons, not much people expected that there would be a high budget compleetly free game made, ever, and yet, with right people and the right ida everything realy is possible.
YES! I agree with you 100%
Ask anyone who has played Asheron's Call and they will say it was the best freakin MMO they have ever played. It was a game truly ahead of its time.
Lets use AC as an example. First of all, games should be based more on skills than levels. That way a level 20 doesnt get completely rolled by someone 10 levels higher than them. It should be based on the skill of the player, not how much time they spent playing against a computer.
Even the game mechanics in AC, it allowed you to hit in three places
The top (head)
the middle (torso)
low (legs)
AND let you modify power versus speed. (the harder your character hits, the more time it took for it to attack)
This was GENIUS! And NONE of these companies ever picked up on it. Not only that, but it even allowed you to dodge projectile attacks (YES, NO MAGICAL HOMING ARROWS!)
This game was based more on player skill than any game ive seen so far. These games need to take a hint from this game and give us something thats fun and relies more on the skill of the player than levels and items. ELIMINATE THE CLASS SYSTEM! Classes add rigidity and no player customization. Add into the mix FFA pvp with some looting, NO PERMADEATH, and it would be set. It would be fun as hell.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
It isn't going to happen since the OP obviously has no skill. Why else would he / she want PvP in a type of game that is little more than a comparison of numbers with little or no user input?
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011
I honestly dont get why people love to play against an AI, when they are there to play MULTIPLAYER. YOU COME TO PLAY MMO'S TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, YET EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER.
I can explain it to ya in one simple sentence: The AI plays fair.
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I already predicted a reponse like this way before you even posted it. Its the same song, same tune being sung. If I got 100 bucks for every time someone said "People dont like PvP because of gankers ruining the fun" I would be rich.
Again like I said before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it. Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game. When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
Second, MMO's nowadays are so highly monitired exploiting usually get you banned within a day. So dont even give me that "AI doesnt cheat" crap. And even if players did exploit on a regular basis, its far better than playing with something that doesnt have a personality and doesnt think and has scripted moves. Ive come to play multiplayer, not against a stupid computer.
My theory of why there are so many PvE supporters out there is the fact that they are pandered and are grown into the sense of mentality that PvP is too "brutal" and "Not fun" yet you see so many people complaining about how boring it is. Guess what folks - you got what you wished for. Additionally, alot of new people to the MMO world have begun by playing WoW which is the standard PvE game based on leveling and items. This is sadly the only type of game that they know about, which is terrible.
Addressing another post -
Originally posted by SonofSeth LVL's and Epics, the biggest obstacle to fun PVP expirience. I guess for a player that enjoys PVP it's about the fight, not about the loot, and for fight to be fun and rewarding there needs to be as much skill involved as possible. So, I say, be gone with epics, if there have to be epics, make them unique, so the only way to get them would be to kill a player who wears it. Make proffesions count and let the most powerfull items be made by other players, if there is gonna be a wow system where you need to spend too much time repeating the same thing to get what you want, I understand that we can't have looting, because if you loose once and lost your items, maybe you would try to get them back, but after second time, no wai hosai! LVL's, thnx but no thnx, skills, now that sounds more promising, and practice by use, not by paying money to magicly know more. And no matter what the diference between two players and time played one should always had to have a chance if not to win but then to escape, that's one thing I appalud to in EVE PVP, if you watchout and see some shifty dude, get the hell out of there and ask questions later, even if that is your first day there, you can still warp away.... and you can always survive, let your guard down in a dangerous pocket of space, I'm sorry, you are just asking for it... Fighting, now we're talking, I would like all out Tekken kickassage where you can have flawless victory if you realy know how to play your character, I know that kind of negates the whole point of loot and all that grind stuff, but I believe that someone out there has an idea how it could be done to bring all those things together. I know much of things I wrote here have been discussed over and over, but you know how it is, you always hope that this will be the one post that will get things moving and start a revolution... As for carebears, I can say I understand where they are comming from, and I realise that that is their playing style, but that is as far as I go, because as that other guy stated that he can't understand where are all theese PVP pro looting guys comming from, I say, I don't care if you think you deserve the respect real gamers do, and I like it that way, it gives color to the whole gaming population. Curently there are no PVP games, there are no adventure games, it's all pretty and most of it lacks the content, but as there once were games, you realy loved to play and you hold them dear to this day, I belive games like that will be made again, maybe not next year, but I think I sence the sands of time shifting. I'm curently very interested in further development of 2Moons, not much people expected that there would be a high budget compleetly free game made, ever, and yet, with right people and the right ida everything realy is possible.
YES! I agree with you 100%
Ask anyone who has played Asheron's Call and they will say it was the best freakin MMO they have ever played. It was a game truly ahead of its time.
Lets use AC as an example. First of all, games should be based more on skills than levels. That way a level 20 doesnt get completely rolled by someone 10 levels higher than them. It should be based on the skill of the player, not how much time they spent playing against a computer.
Even the game mechanics in AC, it allowed you to hit in three places
The top (head)
the middle (torso)
low (legs)
AND let you modify power versus speed. (the harder your character hits, the more time it took for it to attack)
This was GENIUS! And NONE of these companies ever picked up on it. Not only that, but it even allowed you to dodge projectile attacks (YES, NO MAGICAL HOMING ARROWS!)
This game was based more on player skill than any game ive seen so far. These games need to take a hint from this game and give us something thats fun and relies more on the skill of the player than levels and items. ELIMINATE THE CLASS SYSTEM! Classes add rigidity and no player customization. Add into the mix FFA pvp with some looting, NO PERMADEATH, and it would be set. It would be fun as hell.
You are doing the same thing that keeps PvPers in the minority, Steelarm. You are passing off Chessack opinion without actually understanding his position. You are reading it I have no doubt about that. You just aren't allowing it to sink in. He makes a few very valid points about the PvP situation.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
pvp is doing violence against another person. when you gank/kill someone the pvp'er isnt thinking " Oh Ive killed that lvl 25 wood elf paladin" They attach those feelings of violence and the "enjoymeny" of murder to the person behind the character. It is a kind of self esteem booster, but look at the cost. You are essentially equating violence against another person with enjoyment and self worth. This leads to problems especially with young children or with those already inclined toward violence to further blur the line between a game and real life. Now you have people who think that just because they can settle their porblems in X gam with a sword or by killing player x then they can do the same in real life. Now Im not saying all PvP player are this way; just the hardcore raving,foaming at the mouth ones.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011
I honestly dont get why people love to play against an AI, when they are there to play MULTIPLAYER. YOU COME TO PLAY MMO'S TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, YET EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER.
I can explain it to ya in one simple sentence: The AI plays fair.
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I already predicted a reponse like this way before you even posted it. Its the same song, same tune being sung. If I got 100 bucks for every time someone said "People dont like PvP because of gankers ruining the fun" I would be rich.
Again like I said before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it.
first of all, don't bring the real world in gaming world. not going to work, period. next, nobody would really quit because of gankers. its annoying, yes, but it wouldn't make people quit. this is WITHOUT item. loot. getting ganked in a game with no playerloot is not a big deal. getting ganked by a higher level player/person with higher skills and lose all your stuff, Now a big deal. and the sad part is, this is what happens most.
Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game. When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
it doesn't really work like that. it is diffrent in a FPS. in a FPS, you fight a completely fair fight, both players characters are even and just as strong. not the case with MMO pvp. can you take revenge? yeah, in 2 months when you HOPE to reach the same level/same abilities as the player who ganked you
Second, MMO's nowadays are so highly monitired exploiting usually get you banned within a day. So dont even give me that "AI doesnt cheat" crap. And even if players did exploit on a regular basis, its far better than playing with something that doesnt have a personality and doesnt think and has scripted moves. Ive come to play multiplayer, not against a stupid computer.
if you don't want to play against a computer, why the heck are you playing an mmorpg!? the whole goal about mmorpgs are taking on dungeons and whatnot. if you want to pvp that badly, why don't you just go play a FPS? at least you can play FAIR then.
My theory of why there are so many PvE supporters out there is the fact that they are pandered and are grown into the sense of mentality that PvP is too "brutal" and "Not fun" yet you see so many people complaining about how boring it is. Guess what folks - you got what you wished for. Additionally, alot of new people to the MMO world have begun by playing WoW which is the standard PvE game based on leveling and items. This is sadly the only type of game that they know about, which is terrible.
Again like I said before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough? Worrying about whether one is "cool" or not is something 12 year olds do.
I'm a grown man. I have a life, a job, and so on. I do not worry about whether I am "cool." It doesn't even cross my mind whether I might be or not because I know, as a grown up, that "being cool" is something that only children care about -- or adults who are still not really grown up despite chronological age.
"Where's my backbone?" What does that have to do with anything?
We're talking about GAMES here. The one and ONLY purpose of playing a game is TO HAVE FUN.
If I tell you, "This is not fun for me," then that's all that needs to be said. Whether it's fun for YOU is not relevant to me, because you having fun cannot cause me to have fun.
I am not interested in being cool. I have nothing to prove to any other gamers out there, because my gaming is a recreational activity, not a way for me to gain some sort of bizzare "validation" from other people. I do not need to be validated by other people. I play to have fun, not to be admired, or be thought of as "cool." I do not play to prove my courage.
The fact that you discuss backbone with reference to video games just shows how messed up is the perspective many gamers. You want to talk about backbone? Backbone is the mother of 3 who raises her kids all by herself, working 2 jobs and manging to keep a family life. Backbone is the guy with cancer knowing he is dying but fighting for every day of his life. Backbone is the fireman who runs into the burning building to save a little kid. That's courage... that's backbone. Watching a bunch of pixels on a screen and listening to some cool sound FX does not involve anything remotely akin to courage.
The vast, vast majority of people asking for open PVP are, as I said, bullies. What's even sadder is that they are often people who are, in regular life, physically bullied themselves because of small size, lack of being in shape, and whatnot. You'd think such people would be empathetic, and after having been a victim of obnoxious, selfish, bullies for so long, when the tables are turned, they would act with compassion, but they do not. Instead, the instant they get the chance to be the bully themselves, they turn around and do just exactly what had been done to them. And then when, like they feel in real life, their victims say, "We don't want you bullying us anymore," their response, just like any bully, is "where's your backbone?"
Sorry, it does not wash. Playing a video game does not involve backbone. It is a recreational activity. Rational, well balanced people play for fun, not to prove anything. If you need to use a video game to prove something to anyone, I submit that you might want to think about why that is.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by Steelarm011
I honestly dont get why people love to play against an AI, when they are there to play MULTIPLAYER. YOU COME TO PLAY MMO'S TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, YET EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER.
I can explain it to ya in one simple sentence: The AI plays fair.
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I see a lot of talk about PVPers... My take on it is this. A true "hardcore PVPer" would never want to PVP someone who was not interested in it, or wasn't skilled. A true hardcore PVPer is someone who wants to fight other hardcore, skilled PVPers, in a fair battle, testing player skill against player skill. This is true in much the same way that a boxer, as an athlete, is happy to go up against someone in a ring with a referee, but would not normally start punching random weaklings on the street... Boxers don't do that because fighting in the ring is a sport, and a fair contest... and smacking people around on the street, is being a bully.
Asking to be able to shoot someone 30 levels below you in the back of the head is not being a hardcore PVPer any more than Evander Hollyfield asking the city to make it legal for him to beat up anyone he wants on the streets would be. It's being a bully.
C
I wholeheartedly agree with this poster! I do not agree with the OP. PK/Gankers Suck!! I love pvp when its balanced. I despise individuals who like to kill people at a extreme disadvantage. In a pvp enviroment my guild and I make it a point to make pkers/gankers as miserable as possible. They are idiots so they should be treatyed as such!
I played DAOC, WOW<PVP Servers> and currently play EVE. I love PVP.
There is a hardcore PvP game out there now. I'm not sure if you have heard of it. I won't mention its name but there are 3 letters in the title. Starts with E and ends with E.
I will never mention its name again on this website as it has been BEATEN TO DEATH.
Comments
The consequences for PvP balanced out with the good things. You had friends who PvPed and you stuck together. Entire guilds were formed which were based completely around PvP, and you always had friends to get your back while you were out grouping/questing and such.
People say that they just want looting, FFA PvP, etc.. but they don't really think of why they want it, which leads the people who have never PvPed in that environment to believe that it is just a kid's world of trash talking and bragging rights.
I still remember the days of Rallos Zek back in Everquest. You had PvP, which was guild vs. guild, and guild vs random PKers. Then, entire guilds of just pure PKers were formed, and they stuck together. The politics involved in the system were what made the game fun. If one person killed the wrong person in another guild, a war between the guilds would get started and it was fun. The looting didn't matter.. some people were honorable and chose not to loot even though they could. Same thing back in Asheron's Call. You had people who looted, and people who were in it for the good competitive fights, not knowing wether or not the person they were fighting would loot them if they lost.
Like I said.. people are all for FFA PvP and looting, but they forget why. It doesn't have to do with the actual act of looting.. it has to do with the community and in-game politics that this style of gameplay creates.
Sounds just like L2.
Many people mistakenly think "open PvP" = kill everyone you see... which is totally wrong. Nobody does that in an Open PvP enviroment from what I have experienced. Open PvP only means you will have to suffer the consenqence for your own action. You kill someone, that person's buddies/clan/alliance might come after you. You can kill anyone, anyone can kill you too. So be careful what you do.
On the other hand, race based PvP games are close to kill everyone... from the other side you can see...
OP, don't give up on Darkfall just yet. Beta is around the corner, and the game they had in 2003 is practically gone. They completely overhauled the graphics and have hired many new developers. Just hold out until 2007.
I really don't think there will be any chance of pvper's dying out, it makes the game better (At least in my opinion anyway.). There's a challenge in pvp you'll never find in pve, although both can be enjoyable. Its more than a little stupid that just because someone does or doesn't like pvp it gets you some label that doesn't even make sense really. As for the "carebears" and "RAID OR DIE" comments at the beginning of the forum its that kind of crap that makes pvpers look like idiots. There will always be someone out there who is gonna act like an ass if pvp is available, but more often than not they get stomped enough that they get sick of the game and quit anyway. At one time L2, Shadowbane and a couple of other ones had people who would watch over weaker characters to make sure they didn't get jumped. If there is anything that will kill pvp its gonna be the lack of effect it has on the game, personally speaking I'd like to have a war in game and have it really make a difference in the game world.
lol, you sure you are talking pvp? Or Pker/ganking! I think you are upset because you cant go kill a noob with that one item that he just got and say"OMGWTFIOWNEDU" and take the lowbies item. PVP exists! Play EVE. I have litterally watched players and corps lose everything they had due to pvp. PKers/Gankers are a classic example of Fvktards with a broomstick up there arse! /flame on.. £3rN +0 p£Å¥!!!
Nothing like stupidity from others, lets you know what you lack!
Beilieve it or not, our OP is pretty much 90% correct. Other posts Ive read are also correct.
A real PvP game is something that encourages player interaction and grouping, probably moreso than PvE. You have to watch your back, and you need allies to do it. It gave a dynamic to the game that these other current MMO's simply dont give you. Its REAL gameplay, its REAL people. And you know what? I found something downright blasphemous, downright hypocritical:
I honestly dont get why people love to play against an AI, when they are there to play MULTIPLAYER. YOU COME TO PLAY MMO'S TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE, YET EVERYONE WANTS TO PLAY AGAINST A COMPUTER.
And then you say people dont like the hardcore aspect of Pvp, becuase of losing your items and getting killed. Of getting ganked, of letting the gankers get happy off killing you. What happened to the gamer population?
When you get killed, you die. Ok - so you die. You lose an item. Big deal. Jeez people, what has happened to the gamer population? If you have NO CONSEQUENCES, the game will be BORING. And did you ever forget you can do the same thing to that other person? Wow people. Way to take away probably the biggest thing in games, player versus player. I remember back in the day, there was so much freedom, it was so damn fun. Its fun to kill other players and eventually sometimes be killed knowing you did a good job. Its fun chasing people, and its fun to feel your heartbeat race when you have 5 people running after you.
This is exactly what I predicted when WoW came out - people got bored of playing against a computer and having no consequences at death. Theres NO ADRENALINE in WoW, no adrenaline in any of these crap games. Thats why youre so bored, PvE'rs, becuase you came to play against a computer and there is NO SUCH THING AS DEATH. In essence, there is no point in playing, because there is no real competition. It is a Utopia. You dont die in a game, you become a "ghost." Happy? You got what you wanted. Now you reap what you sow.
Even on a different note to these whiners, I hear blizzard is wrecking their game and pandering by giving both Alliance and Horde theyre unique classes (Paladin and Shaman) to both sides, killing the spirit of their game. Good job pandering, Blizzard.
I'm really starting to see the carebear supporters (yes thats the term) and PvE'rs not as gamers. They are not gamers in my opinion anymore, they are some other half breed that somehow like the degration of sitting in front of their computer for 10 hours on a raid against a boss every time they log on.
Its a sad time, really. Hopefully someone will see the light.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steelarm
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
People are different, I think that's the real answer.
- Some people, like me, feel that if there is no consequence to your own (in)actions there's no drive to do it right, also there's more adrenaline flowing if there's a penalty for losing.
- Others like to epxlore, have fun and 'create stuff', funnily enough I like that part too. I loved wandering around in DAoC and WOW but always with other people as to me it's kinda odd to play online, and then go solo.
So I play EVE for the PVP, the running of a business and helping others, but I also play other MMO's just to be able to wield a sword, having a proper avatar and being a valiant knight or whatever
What made PVP in UO good was that it was THE mmo of its days. "Everybody" played it.
Today we can choose a PVE game if we prefer that or a PVP game if we like PVP. PVP'ers need PVE'ers or the game just turns to a Unreal server without depth. PVE'ers don't necessarily need the PVP'ers, but having them generates discussions and counteractions.
Doesn't EVE provide this today? It's not really the loot you want, is it? But rather affecting other players.
(note, I'm not a PVP player or ever tried UO. but I always played on PVP enabled, permadeath, hardcore RP-servers in NWN)
Early Ultima Online pvp was so intense at times, I would get rushes of adrenaline because of the extremely high level of risk, profit & loss.
I share your sentiment. I want more mmorpg action like that where at any moment you could lose all your shit and you had the power to gank shit from others as well.
------------------------------------------------------
Do I ever sleep?
i don't even feel remotly sorry for you guys.
you destroyed your own genre when you made it unaproachable to mainstream: purposless kill on sight, annoying as hell appreviations for newbie(and an alteration of the meaning here) and owned, insults over a 8*20 rectangle of pixels, did i mention compulisive killing of new players.
so its mostly its your fault, and if you didn't do any of those(which i see unlikely in your genre), blame your fellows.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I see a lot of talk about PVPers... My take on it is this. A true "hardcore PVPer" would never want to PVP someone who was not interested in it, or wasn't skilled. A true hardcore PVPer is someone who wants to fight other hardcore, skilled PVPers, in a fair battle, testing player skill against player skill. This is true in much the same way that a boxer, as an athlete, is happy to go up against someone in a ring with a referee, but would not normally start punching random weaklings on the street... Boxers don't do that because fighting in the ring is a sport, and a fair contest... and smacking people around on the street, is being a bully.
Asking to be able to shoot someone 30 levels below you in the back of the head is not being a hardcore PVPer any more than Evander Hollyfield asking the city to make it legal for him to beat up anyone he wants on the streets would be. It's being a bully.
C
I have said it before and will say it again, unless you get rid of levels HARDCORE PVP will either never exist or just plain suck ass. Let's do a quick comparison.
I am 6'2" tall, weigh 200lbs. and am 31 years old. I walk down to the local school yard where some 5 years olds are playing and start wooping the shit out of them, woot no one can take me I am a badass. This might be fun for a while but would get old and if you were the 5 year old I don't think it would be fun at all.
Also, Hardcore PVPers are absolutely the minority. Out of 10 million gamers worldwide there are probably only 50,000 of you.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
YES 100% levels neeed to go and player skill needs to be more of the deciding factor then gear/skills. You are also correct in that us harcore PvP fiends are the minority ( and we even get put into 2 groups after that: Gankers- players who feed of the grief of killing lower level players and seldom challenge equal opponents. Wariors- True PvPer doesnt matter if u kill him he will just keep getting tougher and learning the game because he always challenged himself by fighting the best. The true PvPer is the rare type of pvper to and thats why most games do have "carebear" rulesets because if not the ASSHATS would take over lol.
I think the best Idea for PvP is Faction based where you can always attack or be attacked by the enemy faction but not your own and certain areas are pvp areas so if u want pvp go there and if not then dont.
{(RIP)} SWG
LVL's and Epics, the biggest obstacle to fun PVP expirience. I guess for a player that enjoys PVP it's about the fight, not about the loot, and for fight to be fun and rewarding there needs to be as much skill involved as possible.
So, I say, be gone with epics, if there have to be epics, make them unique, so the only way to get them would be to kill a player who wears it. Make proffesions count and let the most powerfull items be made by other players, if there is gonna be a wow system where you need to spend too much time repeating the same thing to get what you want, I understand that we can't have looting, because if you loose once and lost your items, maybe you would try to get them back, but after second time, no wai hosai!
LVL's, thnx but no thnx, skills, now that sounds more promising, and practice by use, not by paying money to magicly know more. And no matter what the diference between two players and time played one should always had to have a chance if not to win but then to escape, that's one thing I appalud to in EVE PVP, if you watchout and see some shifty dude, get the hell out of there and ask questions later, even if that is your first day there, you can still warp away.... and you can always survive, let your guard down in a dangerous pocket of space, I'm sorry, you are just asking for it...
Fighting, now we're talking, I would like all out Tekken kickassage where you can have flawless victory if you realy know how to play your character, I know that kind of negates the whole point of loot and all that grind stuff, but I believe that someone out there has an idea how it could be done to bring all those things together.
I know much of things I wrote here have been discussed over and over, but you know how it is, you always hope that this will be the one post that will get things moving and start a revolution...
As for carebears, I can say I understand where they are comming from, and I realise that that is their playing style, but that is as far as I go, because as that other guy stated that he can't understand where are all theese PVP pro looting guys comming from, I say, I don't care if you think you deserve the respect real gamers do, and I like it that way, it gives color to the whole gaming population. Curently there are no PVP games, there are no adventure games, it's all pretty and most of it lacks the content, but as there once were games, you realy loved to play and you hold them dear to this day, I belive games like that will be made again, maybe not next year, but I think I sence the sands of time shifting.
I'm curently very interested in further development of 2Moons, not much people expected that there would be a high budget compleetly free game made, ever, and yet, with right people and the right ida everything realy is possible.
I already predicted a reponse like this way before you even posted it. Its the same song, same tune being sung. If I got 100 bucks for every time someone said "People dont like PvP because of gankers ruining the fun" I would be rich.
Again like I said before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it. Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game. When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
Second, MMO's nowadays are so highly monitired exploiting usually get you banned within a day. So dont even give me that "AI doesnt cheat" crap. And even if players did exploit on a regular basis, its far better than playing with something that doesnt have a personality and doesnt think and has scripted moves. Ive come to play multiplayer, not against a stupid computer.
My theory of why there are so many PvE supporters out there is the fact that they are pandered and are grown into the sense of mentality that PvP is too "brutal" and "Not fun" yet you see so many people complaining about how boring it is. Guess what folks - you got what you wished for. Additionally, alot of new people to the MMO world have begun by playing WoW which is the standard PvE game based on leveling and items. This is sadly the only type of game that they know about, which is terrible.
Addressing another post -
Originally posted by SonofSeth
LVL's and Epics, the biggest obstacle to fun PVP expirience. I guess for a player that enjoys PVP it's about the fight, not about the loot, and for fight to be fun and rewarding there needs to be as much skill involved as possible.
So, I say, be gone with epics, if there have to be epics, make them unique, so the only way to get them would be to kill a player who wears it. Make proffesions count and let the most powerfull items be made by other players, if there is gonna be a wow system where you need to spend too much time repeating the same thing to get what you want, I understand that we can't have looting, because if you loose once and lost your items, maybe you would try to get them back, but after second time, no wai hosai!
LVL's, thnx but no thnx, skills, now that sounds more promising, and practice by use, not by paying money to magicly know more. And no matter what the diference between two players and time played one should always had to have a chance if not to win but then to escape, that's one thing I appalud to in EVE PVP, if you watchout and see some shifty dude, get the hell out of there and ask questions later, even if that is your first day there, you can still warp away.... and you can always survive, let your guard down in a dangerous pocket of space, I'm sorry, you are just asking for it...
Fighting, now we're talking, I would like all out Tekken kickassage where you can have flawless victory if you realy know how to play your character, I know that kind of negates the whole point of loot and all that grind stuff, but I believe that someone out there has an idea how it could be done to bring all those things together.
I know much of things I wrote here have been discussed over and over, but you know how it is, you always hope that this will be the one post that will get things moving and start a revolution...
As for carebears, I can say I understand where they are comming from, and I realise that that is their playing style, but that is as far as I go, because as that other guy stated that he can't understand where are all theese PVP pro looting guys comming from, I say, I don't care if you think you deserve the respect real gamers do, and I like it that way, it gives color to the whole gaming population. Curently there are no PVP games, there are no adventure games, it's all pretty and most of it lacks the content, but as there once were games, you realy loved to play and you hold them dear to this day, I belive games like that will be made again, maybe not next year, but I think I sence the sands of time shifting.
I'm curently very interested in further development of 2Moons, not much people expected that there would be a high budget compleetly free game made, ever, and yet, with right people and the right ida everything realy is possible.
YES! I agree with you 100%
Ask anyone who has played Asheron's Call and they will say it was the best freakin MMO they have ever played. It was a game truly ahead of its time.
Lets use AC as an example. First of all, games should be based more on skills than levels. That way a level 20 doesnt get completely rolled by someone 10 levels higher than them. It should be based on the skill of the player, not how much time they spent playing against a computer.
Even the game mechanics in AC, it allowed you to hit in three places
The top (head)
the middle (torso)
low (legs)
AND let you modify power versus speed. (the harder your character hits, the more time it took for it to attack)
This was GENIUS! And NONE of these companies ever picked up on it. Not only that, but it even allowed you to dodge projectile attacks (YES, NO MAGICAL HOMING ARROWS!)
This game was based more on player skill than any game ive seen so far. These games need to take a hint from this game and give us something thats fun and relies more on the skill of the player than levels and items. ELIMINATE THE CLASS SYSTEM! Classes add rigidity and no player customization. Add into the mix FFA pvp with some looting, NO PERMADEATH, and it would be set. It would be fun as hell.
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
The OP needs to play War Rock and STFU.
It isn't going to happen since the OP obviously has no skill. Why else would he / she want PvP in a type of game that is little more than a comparison of numbers with little or no user input?
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I already predicted a reponse like this way before you even posted it. Its the same song, same tune being sung. If I got 100 bucks for every time someone said "People dont like PvP because of gankers ruining the fun" I would be rich.
Again like I said before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it. Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game. When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
Second, MMO's nowadays are so highly monitired exploiting usually get you banned within a day. So dont even give me that "AI doesnt cheat" crap. And even if players did exploit on a regular basis, its far better than playing with something that doesnt have a personality and doesnt think and has scripted moves. Ive come to play multiplayer, not against a stupid computer.
My theory of why there are so many PvE supporters out there is the fact that they are pandered and are grown into the sense of mentality that PvP is too "brutal" and "Not fun" yet you see so many people complaining about how boring it is. Guess what folks - you got what you wished for. Additionally, alot of new people to the MMO world have begun by playing WoW which is the standard PvE game based on leveling and items. This is sadly the only type of game that they know about, which is terrible.
Addressing another post -
Originally posted by SonofSeth
LVL's and Epics, the biggest obstacle to fun PVP expirience. I guess for a player that enjoys PVP it's about the fight, not about the loot, and for fight to be fun and rewarding there needs to be as much skill involved as possible.
So, I say, be gone with epics, if there have to be epics, make them unique, so the only way to get them would be to kill a player who wears it. Make proffesions count and let the most powerfull items be made by other players, if there is gonna be a wow system where you need to spend too much time repeating the same thing to get what you want, I understand that we can't have looting, because if you loose once and lost your items, maybe you would try to get them back, but after second time, no wai hosai!
LVL's, thnx but no thnx, skills, now that sounds more promising, and practice by use, not by paying money to magicly know more. And no matter what the diference between two players and time played one should always had to have a chance if not to win but then to escape, that's one thing I appalud to in EVE PVP, if you watchout and see some shifty dude, get the hell out of there and ask questions later, even if that is your first day there, you can still warp away.... and you can always survive, let your guard down in a dangerous pocket of space, I'm sorry, you are just asking for it...
Fighting, now we're talking, I would like all out Tekken kickassage where you can have flawless victory if you realy know how to play your character, I know that kind of negates the whole point of loot and all that grind stuff, but I believe that someone out there has an idea how it could be done to bring all those things together.
I know much of things I wrote here have been discussed over and over, but you know how it is, you always hope that this will be the one post that will get things moving and start a revolution...
As for carebears, I can say I understand where they are comming from, and I realise that that is their playing style, but that is as far as I go, because as that other guy stated that he can't understand where are all theese PVP pro looting guys comming from, I say, I don't care if you think you deserve the respect real gamers do, and I like it that way, it gives color to the whole gaming population. Curently there are no PVP games, there are no adventure games, it's all pretty and most of it lacks the content, but as there once were games, you realy loved to play and you hold them dear to this day, I belive games like that will be made again, maybe not next year, but I think I sence the sands of time shifting.
I'm curently very interested in further development of 2Moons, not much people expected that there would be a high budget compleetly free game made, ever, and yet, with right people and the right ida everything realy is possible.
YES! I agree with you 100%
Ask anyone who has played Asheron's Call and they will say it was the best freakin MMO they have ever played. It was a game truly ahead of its time.
Lets use AC as an example. First of all, games should be based more on skills than levels. That way a level 20 doesnt get completely rolled by someone 10 levels higher than them. It should be based on the skill of the player, not how much time they spent playing against a computer.
Even the game mechanics in AC, it allowed you to hit in three places
The top (head)
the middle (torso)
low (legs)
AND let you modify power versus speed. (the harder your character hits, the more time it took for it to attack)
This was GENIUS! And NONE of these companies ever picked up on it. Not only that, but it even allowed you to dodge projectile attacks (YES, NO MAGICAL HOMING ARROWS!)
This game was based more on player skill than any game ive seen so far. These games need to take a hint from this game and give us something thats fun and relies more on the skill of the player than levels and items. ELIMINATE THE CLASS SYSTEM! Classes add rigidity and no player customization. Add into the mix FFA pvp with some looting, NO PERMADEATH, and it would be set. It would be fun as hell.
You are doing the same thing that keeps PvPers in the minority, Steelarm. You are passing off Chessack opinion without actually understanding his position. You are reading it I have no doubt about that. You just aren't allowing it to sink in. He makes a few very valid points about the PvP situation.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I already predicted a reponse like this way before you even posted it. Its the same song, same tune being sung. If I got 100 bucks for every time someone said "People dont like PvP because of gankers ruining the fun" I would be rich.
Again like I said before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Yes, FFA PvP does include gankers. Hell even in a "PvP zone" as you like to put it, you get ganked as well. It happens everywhere you go. Its a fact of life in the game and the real world. Get over it.
first of all, don't bring the real world in gaming world. not going to work, period. next, nobody would really quit because of gankers. its annoying, yes, but it wouldn't make people quit. this is WITHOUT item. loot. getting ganked in a game with no playerloot is not a big deal. getting ganked by a higher level player/person with higher skills and lose all your stuff, Now a big deal. and the sad part is, this is what happens most.
Ive never seen such a pampered group of gamers in my life. Okay, you get ganked, you die. Guess what? You get to play again, and now you have the chance to get revenge. Its the spirit of playing a game. When youre playing an FPS, is it any different? No. When youre playing teams in an FPS and two players gang on you, its no different. Its a freakin game here. Where is your spirit?
it doesn't really work like that. it is diffrent in a FPS. in a FPS, you fight a completely fair fight, both players characters are even and just as strong. not the case with MMO pvp. can you take revenge? yeah, in 2 months when you HOPE to reach the same level/same abilities as the player who ganked you
Second, MMO's nowadays are so highly monitired exploiting usually get you banned within a day. So dont even give me that "AI doesnt cheat" crap. And even if players did exploit on a regular basis, its far better than playing with something that doesnt have a personality and doesnt think and has scripted moves. Ive come to play multiplayer, not against a stupid computer.
if you don't want to play against a computer, why the heck are you playing an mmorpg!? the whole goal about mmorpgs are taking on dungeons and whatnot. if you want to pvp that badly, why don't you just go play a FPS? at least you can play FAIR then.
My theory of why there are so many PvE supporters out there is the fact that they are pandered and are grown into the sense of mentality that PvP is too "brutal" and "Not fun" yet you see so many people complaining about how boring it is. Guess what folks - you got what you wished for. Additionally, alot of new people to the MMO world have begun by playing WoW which is the standard PvE game based on leveling and items. This is sadly the only type of game that they know about, which is terrible.
before, it saddens me to see players out here with this sense of
mentality. Wheres your backbone? Is it cool to not be tough?
Worrying about whether one is "cool" or not is something 12 year olds do.
I'm a grown man. I have a life, a job, and so on. I do not worry about whether I am "cool." It doesn't even cross my mind whether I might be or not because I know, as a grown up, that "being cool" is something that only children care about -- or adults who are still not really grown up despite chronological age.
"Where's my backbone?" What does that have to do with anything?
We're talking about GAMES here. The one and ONLY purpose of playing a game is TO HAVE FUN.
If I tell you, "This is not fun for me," then that's all that needs to be said. Whether it's fun for YOU is not relevant to me, because you having fun cannot cause me to have fun.
I am not interested in being cool. I have nothing to prove to any other gamers out there, because my gaming is a recreational activity, not a way for me to gain some sort of bizzare "validation" from other people. I do not need to be validated by other people. I play to have fun, not to be admired, or be thought of as "cool." I do not play to prove my courage.
The fact that you discuss backbone with reference to video games just shows how messed up is the perspective many gamers. You want to talk about backbone? Backbone is the mother of 3 who raises her kids all by herself, working 2 jobs and manging to keep a family life. Backbone is the guy with cancer knowing he is dying but fighting for every day of his life. Backbone is the fireman who runs into the burning building to save a little kid. That's courage... that's backbone. Watching a bunch of pixels on a screen and listening to some cool sound FX does not involve anything remotely akin to courage.
The vast, vast majority of people asking for open PVP are, as I said, bullies. What's even sadder is that they are often people who are, in regular life, physically bullied themselves because of small size, lack of being in shape, and whatnot. You'd think such people would be empathetic, and after having been a victim of obnoxious, selfish, bullies for so long, when the tables are turned, they would act with compassion, but they do not. Instead, the instant they get the chance to be the bully themselves, they turn around and do just exactly what had been done to them. And then when, like they feel in real life, their victims say, "We don't want you bullying us anymore," their response, just like any bully, is "where's your backbone?"
Sorry, it does not wash. Playing a video game does not involve backbone. It is a
recreational activity. Rational, well balanced people play for fun, not
to prove anything. If you need to use a video game to prove something
to anyone, I submit that you might want to think about why that is.
C
For the most part, the AI does not cheat. It does not "gank" you. It does not dupe money to buy gear no one of its level should have. It does not use exploits to get unfair advantage and then use that advantage to go after people playing the game by the rules.
Many people who have had unpleasant experiences have had them in the context of the other guy using some sort of an exploit to get an unfair advantage, and win the fight by not playing fair and square. There are a lot of people who will do things like "duel" other players, but don't want open PVP. I knew a bunch of folks in SWG when I played it, who never went "overt" to do PVP, but dueled a lot. It wasn't that they opposed PVP... it's that by dueling they could ensure that the fight was fair, that their opponent was honorable, and that if they lost, they lost fair and square to a legitimately better player... not to some guy who had used a login/logout exploit to dupe resources and build an item nobody playing the game honestly could get. Some of these folks were quite good at PVP. It wasn't about "will I lose?" (they lost duels plenty of times), but about, "Will it be a fair fight?"
Too often in these games, in an open or "free for all" setting, what happens is the gankers are going around looking, not for a fair fight, but for a way to lord it over someone else and beat up on a weaker player. There's a term for this kind of behavior in the real world: BULLY.
People do not like bullies. They do not like being bullied. Read the posts on this thread and you will see the mentality. There are a handful of loud bullies here asking for the equivalent of an unpoliced schoolyard so they can go around beating up weaker kids and taking their lunch money.
In the real world an "open bullying" schoolyard does not exist because the bullies are in the vast minority... and the majority will not permit them (legally or by local rules like "school policy") to push other people around without consequences. In the real world, bullies are stopped by the authorities sooner or later, and it's never the case that the rules permit bullying. Bullies do what they do against the rules, and if they get caught, they are punished.
In the online world it is the same way -- since the population of gamers is drawn from the real population. Just like most people in the real world do not like being bullied, most people in the gamer world (being a subpopulation of that) also do not like being bullied. Open PVP, free for all, whatever you want to call it, means "open season for bullies", and most people don't want to live in a world dominated by bullies.
Remember, computer games are recreation. Most of us play them, in part, to escape from the unpleasantness of the real world. Bullies are an unpleasant element of reality... Why would anyone but a bully expect the gamer population to want to have that unpleasant element incorporated into the game world?
I see a lot of talk about PVPers... My take on it is this. A true "hardcore PVPer" would never want to PVP someone who was not interested in it, or wasn't skilled. A true hardcore PVPer is someone who wants to fight other hardcore, skilled PVPers, in a fair battle, testing player skill against player skill. This is true in much the same way that a boxer, as an athlete, is happy to go up against someone in a ring with a referee, but would not normally start punching random weaklings on the street... Boxers don't do that because fighting in the ring is a sport, and a fair contest... and smacking people around on the street, is being a bully.
Asking to be able to shoot someone 30 levels below you in the back of the head is not being a hardcore PVPer any more than Evander Hollyfield asking the city to make it legal for him to beat up anyone he wants on the streets would be. It's being a bully.
C
I wholeheartedly agree with this poster! I do not agree with the OP. PK/Gankers Suck!! I love pvp when its balanced. I despise individuals who like to kill people at a extreme disadvantage. In a pvp enviroment my guild and I make it a point to make pkers/gankers as miserable as possible. They are idiots so they should be treatyed as such!
I played DAOC, WOW<PVP Servers> and currently play EVE. I love PVP.
There is a hardcore PvP game out there now. I'm not sure if you have heard of it. I won't mention its name but there are 3 letters in the title. Starts with E and ends with E.
I will never mention its name again on this website as it has been BEATEN TO DEATH.