Well as long as neither side try to ruin a game's core mechanics to suit them (as opposed to GOING elsewhere),don't really care about 'carebears'. I sometimes like to co-operate with the 'enemy',but then I'm open-ended thinking like that.
The only problem is that for people seeking hardcore PvP,there isn't as many 'places' to go,but they'll have to deal with that.
Everyone I knew in UO except one person left for EQ... without exception they all left due to no non-consenual pvp. (as trammel wasn't out then).
You must've not played on Baja. Baja was nothing if not a war zone. Even the *roleplayers* were part of real wars.
No one ever had trouble getting into a guild and a LOT of large guilds were recruiting from the new player populace.
The group of guilds I played with didn't leave because of the all-the-time-all-over pvp, we'd all left because the folks running UO didn't listen to the players and what the players wanted, ever, at all, about anything. sort of like eq, wow, etc nowadays.
I didn't realize there were carebear shards back in the 'good old uo days', but i suppose there must've been according to antarious. The people that left, were they "soloers" in the MMO land? or were they part of guilds and no one in the guild would avenge them or help hunt down the ones who pk'd them? just wondering how the non-consenual pvp was ruining the game for someone in an active guild?
don't get me wrong, i like soloing myself, but these games aren't diablo; they're made with groups of people in mind. the sandboxes are the best for people who think. the 'hold my hand' games are for the sheep the OP mentions -- no thinking involved, show me what i'm supposed to do next, please.
now, don't read into my statements. people that think DO play the 'hold my hand' games; but they aren't required TO think whilst playing them. after a long day at work, might be nasty weather outside and your choices are down to watching tv/dvd or playing an online game... one of those non-thinking games might be just the thing to help you unwind.
i guess what i'm (not really) getting at here, is that there just needs to be more choices. not just a ton of fantasy games, but a ton of games like toontown, something horror akin to cthulu, sci fi, space, just a lot more CHOICES. then hook a few of those together with a plan like eq's station deal and you have your choices and affordability. throw in some pvp, rp, pvprp and regular servers and voila, there ya go.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by SonofSeth Originally posted by Gameloading as I and other have told you many times before, NOT everybody is like you. diffrent people enjoy diffrent things. WE decide what we think is fun, not you. and we have decided, and we do NOT enjoy your hardcore pvp style.
I promise Gameloading, that if you listen to your own advice you would see that what those two are saying is the same thing I quoted from you. preach on brother beavis!
preach on and one day... one day... the streets shall flow....
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Synyster777 PvP is awesome, losing loot or exp is not awesome or fun. People play games for fun. The majority do not want to be killed by a player that is 20-50 levels higher then them to lose exp or loot. It is simple. We are humans. Us as humans would not want to be confronted by a Lion for the simple fact we will be ganked and looted of skin and meat as well as losing our whole life's worth of exp. Does that sound fun to you? Sure for the Lion it is great fun. But for the defenseless human it was worthless and his life (fun) has just expired. We are playing games here. If you want to be hardcore go out on the street and shoot someone or something. My point is you don't need looting or exp loss to make the game fun or open PvP. It is all in your head.
1) This points out the inherrent FLAW in the EQ/WoW template. You should NEVER try to tack PVP onto a level based system. The only game that's done it well is DAOC and only because RVR is only done at max level where the playing field is, relatively speaking, even.
2) Losing loot in PVP only sucks because of the EQ/WoW template where decent equipment = hours/days/weeks of work to obtain.
The template that WORKS with PVP is the UO/EVE template: No levels, just skills No hours of work to get equipment, just buy it from a crafter. Sure it may take a little time to get cash together but eventually even that becomes a non-issue. thus the "pain" of dying is much less due to being well prepared but still enough that people aren't going to be suicidal about PVP for the most part.
PVP works FINE in a truely skill based game. SWG, EVE and UO had/have some of the BEST PVP in the MMO universe. Why? Because they aren't level gated and, more importantly, because losing all your gear doesn't mean you just lost 3 months of camping to get the items. Generally, at most, in those games... it's a few hours of work to get the items (or better) back. Also, in those games, since they're skill based, you can spot your weak areas and improve them by training the skills you lack.
In a level based game you don't have that luxury. It's level based, thus you have to GRIND GRIND GRIND to get to max level where the playing field is "relatively" even.
In a CLASS based game you can never address your weaknesses. You are limited to what abilities are given to your class by the devs. If there's an inherent weakness in the class you have no way to fix it other than hope like hell the developer eventually gets around to either fixing you or nerfing your adversary (and we all know how much fun it is to be nerfed!).
In a LOOT based game you have to spend hours, days, weeks, even months, to get the best gear in the game possible so that you can compete in PVP. If you are able to be looted when you die it is DEVASTATING because you just "lost" those hours/days/weeks/months of time in a flash of agony and despair. Thus a Loot based game has NO business having loot based PVP. On top of that, loot based games become an arena for the powergamers. Where only those with the time (or money) to obtain the top end gear stand a chance in PVP.
WoW, EQ2, SWG:NGE, AO, SoR and others all fall into one (or more) of those categories. Which is why the PVP in them will never compare to PvP in old-style UO, EVE and Pre-CU SWG.
The key difference: Those 3 titles were all SKILL based systems, with no levels Those 3 titles were all CRAFTER based equipment, yes you could get loot (in all of them) but it wasn't/isn't any better than the gear you can get from a great crafter. Also because it's relatively easy to obtain there isn't price inflation driving the equipment into the insane category of pricing. Thus it's relatively painless (not completely, but relatively) to recover from being killed and looted.
Granted SWG didn't have looting in PVP (and I honestly don't think it's absolutely necessary) but both EVE and UO do/did. PVP is much more balanced in them as well because it's a SKILL based environment where players can alter and tweak their templates to strengthen areas that are weak. Basically in all those games players don't have to wait for a magical fix from the developer.... if they're weak... they can modify themselves to make them stronger. This often gets called the "FOTM template". But that's ok.... skill based games are all about finding a template that suits you.
Thankfully there are some MMORPG companies trying to stay in the mold of UO/EVE/Pre-CU SWG and go with a classless/level free system. Darkfall is the one I'm currently watching, while I play EVE.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
This post prove me one thing, inside or outside the game PvPer are still Ganking us everywhere and calling us name.
I am wondering if all you PvPer are from the MMO generation or you played on a console before, like a single player game, My God what was your point, fighting agaisnt AI, damn no purpose in that.
But you know what I like in MMO, is I can play with (not agaisnt) many friends without have them in my living room. I have nothing to prove to anyone, I not competitive, I do not need that feeling when I walk around a zone. You do, good for you, I don't.
About Good and Evil in game, only the term is there, but people do not act like that.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
I propose changing the term "CAREBEAR" into "DRONE", drones are good litle sheeps, they don't fight, don't compete with each othere, only listen to the rules and regulations, they don't have the need to prove themselves to anyone, they are content with being a grain of sand on a sandy beach, no diferent then other dust there, they are happy only when they are surounded by the likes of themselves, threatend by the ones that are diferent and ask questions and speak their mind....
I propose drones, because I think carebear is too good of term for them, carebears actualy have some personality and moxy, drones is much better, it reminds me of color gray, how I always picture them..
I'm curious, is there a research done to link gaming habits to real life habits, I always imagine drones (carebears) to be mostly pencil pushers, working in places where everybody wears the same suit and where rules are well set, because rules are good, rules are the way, rules give you safety and rules free you of thought, which sadly makes a conclusion that free mind is only the one that is empty...
Originally posted by SonofSeth I propose changing the term "CAREBEAR" into "DRONE", drones are good litle sheeps, they don't fight, don't compete with each othere, only listen to the rules and regulations, they don't have the need to prove themselves to anyone, they are content with being a grain of sand on a sandy beach, no diferent then other dust there, they are happy only when they are surounded by the likes of themselves, threatend by the ones that are diferent and ask questions and speak their mind.... I propose drones, because I think carebear is too good of term for them, carebears actualy have some personality and moxy, drones is much better, it reminds me of color gray, how I always picture them.. I'm curious, is there a research done to link gaming habits to real life habits, I always imagine drones (carebears) to be mostly pencil pushers, working in places where everybody wears the same suit and where rules are well set, because rules are good, rules are the way, rules give you safety and rules free you of thought, which sadly makes a conclusion that free mind is only the one that is empty... Ofcourse I could be wrong, but I'm not
LOL I totally forgot that the mobs in UO used to loot you when you died. I just remembered a bunch of times when I first started out and was fighting in an orc camp. I got killed by one and saw the message *an orc rummages through your pack and steals <item>*. It was one of my armor pieces. By the time I got back to the orc camp someone else had killed him and gotten it. I got a better piece after killing a few more orcs anyways so no big deal though.
I used to laugh my ass off when someone would jump me and I'd kill them, then a random mob that was just walking around would loot something off of their corpse that I had left there.
Originally posted by Gameloading BurningPain and Steelarm, if you are not open for other people's views, then maybe you should not post here.
as I and other have told you many times before, NOT everybody is like you. diffrent people enjoy diffrent things. WE decide what we think is fun, not you. and we have decided, and we do NOT enjoy your hardcore pvp style.
Nothing has been proven wrong, stop making things up to "prove" your point steelarm. not everybody is like you, far from it. and thats the only thing that has been proven.
enjoy your games, we will enjoy ours.
Umm...when did I say that I was not open to people's views? this is a discusssion forum, I expect you to quote me and argue your point as well. I enjoy a good natured discussion. Unfortunatley I dont get that, instead I get these posts that have no contribution to the thread.
Originally posted by SonofSeth Oh no, Steelarm is here, get ready for epic quotes and bickering to the end of time with no end and purpose...yaaawn..... We were zergrushed, thats what we were!
I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
-------------------------------------------
Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 Originally posted by Gameloading BurningPain and Steelarm, if you are not open for other people's views, then maybe you should not post here.
as I and other have told you many times before, NOT everybody is like you. diffrent people enjoy diffrent things. WE decide what we think is fun, not you. and we have decided, and we do NOT enjoy your hardcore pvp style.
Nothing has been proven wrong, stop making things up to "prove" your point steelarm. not everybody is like you, far from it. and thats the only thing that has been proven.
enjoy your games, we will enjoy ours.
Umm...when did I say that I was not open to people's views? this is a discusssion forum, I expect you to quote me and argue your point as well. I enjoy a good natured discussion. Unfortunatley I dont get that, instead I get these posts that have no contribution to the thread.
Originally posted by SonofSeth Oh no, Steelarm is here, get ready for epic quotes and bickering to the end of time with no end and purpose...yaaawn..... We were zergrushed, thats what we were!
I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
"
The first and foremost that is usually posted in these forums is the "People dont think its fun" argument. They say that since your able to kill someone in FFA PvP it isnt "fun". Ganking people isnt fun. Getting killed with consequences isnt fun.
This has been proven wrong time and time again and they dont listen. The way a game is "fun" is because it is challenging, and once you complete that challenge, you get rewarded, thus its pretty fun "
This is nothing more but YOUR view. people have told you in this thread and many other thread that NOT everybody wants to play like this. however you completely ignore it and keep making posts like this. acting like those people "don't know what fun is".
Originally posted by Laneo Originally posted by Synyster777 My post wasn't directed towards you or anyone really I was just saying how I feel lol and yes campers/gankers are frustrating to the core. I love when they go it is a PvP game noob deal with it. Then I am like you call that PvP? Wow that was some crazy PvP I almost had you there. Synyster takes 4763234 damage from Gankers Ice Blast.
The point is: No Developers are making Open PvP games for those who enjoy it. Why? Because people like you come here and cry about getting ganked..So what??
False!
Darkfall, Roma Victor, IRTH and several other MMORPG's have been developed with open PVP. EVE is a very successful MMORPG with open PVP.
The REASON not many dev teams make open PVP games is because it's hard to make one that's well balanced and, generally, more people like limited PVP than open PVP. Open PVP sells fewer boxes, period. Developers, for the most part, want to make a profit. The easiest way to make a profit is to appeal to the largest number of players. Open PVP appeals to SOME but MOST do not like it. A well balanced Open PVP system with good restrictions and safer areas CAN work... EVE is the proof. EVE is well balanced. UO was pretty well balanced. No other "open PVP" mmorpg has learned how to do this yet.
It can't be level based <--- this is very difficult to pull off. Because rather than balancing levels/classes you have to balance any given mix of skills with each other... which can be VERY difficult.
It can't be item based <--- easy to implement but many devs just don't grasp this one. It REQUIRES a robust (and FUN rather than complicated) crafting system that REWARDS the crafters for their efforts without causing sky-rocketing prices to the players.
It must have penalties, it can't be COMPLETELY FFA <---- Killing a player MUST have consequences
It should have relatively 'safe' aka 'policed' areas. <---- People need a place to go where they can 'get away from the stress' or they'll get tired of it.
EVE cracked that code and is slowly but surely reaping the rewards for the hard work by that team.
Darkfall may be the next one to crack the code... RV possibly COULD have but poor delivery is hurting them. I personally won't play the game without a free trial first. No way.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
By the very nature of pvp type games they tend to attract a younger fan base. More often than not this leads to an environment ruled by gangs of immature pk'ers roaming around killing everyone in sight just for the hell of it, aka griefing!
What we need is games where pvp has a consequence and determines how the environment reacts to you.
Originally posted by SonofSeth I propose changing the term "CAREBEAR" into "DRONE", drones are good litle sheeps, they don't fight, don't compete with each othere, only listen to the rules and regulations, they don't have the need to prove themselves to anyone, they are content with being a grain of sand on a sandy beach, no diferent then other dust there, they are happy only when they are surounded by the likes of themselves, threatend by the ones that are diferent and ask questions and speak their mind.... I propose drones, because I think carebear is too good of term for them, carebears actualy have some personality and moxy, drones is much better, it reminds me of color gray, how I always picture them.. I'm curious, is there a research done to link gaming habits to real life habits, I always imagine drones (carebears) to be mostly pencil pushers, working in places where everybody wears the same suit and where rules are well set, because rules are good, rules are the way, rules give you safety and rules free you of thought, which sadly makes a conclusion that free mind is only the one that is empty... Ofcourse I could be wrong, but I'm not
Here again, because we do not agree with your still of playing we become Drones, Sheeps, Carebear or even empty mind.
You PvPer have to understand that no one cares if you want to PvP, as long as we do not get Ganked. The Ganking is what we do not like in PvP, not the PvPer
I would love to know what PvPer are in reel life too. Are they bashing everyone around to get to the top just to show they are the best? They absolutely need to prove themselves in front of other because of lack of something?
You think we can not enjoy a game because we do not PvP, but we have fun with the game. PvP is just one part of the game, in fact, PvP is not even the game, it is more like a FPS, it is a competition. If it would be something like: Your quest is to defeat X number of player in PvP or something like that, I would say it is the purpose of the game. Beside that, play Guild Wars, that game is a CORPG, all about PvP.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Your views are irredemly corrupted by a PvP-veil, you can't see past this veil and are unable to differentiate PvE gameplays. In your example, a raider is in the same category as a grouper that is also sharing the same category as a soloer. We didn't even consider the "hardcore" way these players play.
See, someone like Brad McQuaid is making the mistake that casual = solo, while in fact, it has nothing to do with each other. Yes, solo attract casuals since it it available NOW, that doesn't mean that solo = casuals.
See, you describe a small minority of players with your carebears. Most PvE players are willing to take PvE risks and to go to great depth to advance, some helping each others, some fighting each other. Take EQ for example, a fellow player can TRAIN you, he can HELP you, he can wait and hope you wipe to get the fight, he can try to demoralize you so you leave, he can encourage you or give hints.
PvE is far more complex than making such a generalisation. PvE is the maincourse, it is the players who are willing to pay monthly fees to play. PvE can be divided into: Soloing - Grouping - Raiding - Tradeskills/others. The intensity and the cooperation can be fine tuned inside each gameplay, soloers can cooperate and teach each other or they can compete, and so on with the other aspects.
Fame, leader & founder of the Care Bears Inc. Super Guild in CoV.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Steelarm011 The OP did not degrade anyone, he simply spoke the truth. The truth is, Carebears dont like challenges,
Calling someone a 'carebear' is insulting them, it's along the same lines as calling anyone who likes PVP a 'ganker'. Until you 'hardcore' types realize this, you're going to keep ending up with the same pattern in your threads. Someone starts a thread, opens it with insults like 'carebear', then whines and tries to play the victim when people respond to the insult. It also doesn't help the case for 'carebear' not being an insult when you write a long rant about 'carebears' and all of their negative characteristics.
But go on, complain that people are prejudiced against 'hardcore' PVPers and cry that you're a victim when what really happens is that people respond to 'hardcore' PVPers in the same tone the 'hardcore' use.
"What did carebears win?" Carebears won peace of mind. Safety. Citizens aka carebears can venture into so called dangerous territory and not have to worry about other players killing them and taking all their loot. Citizens aka carebears need no longer worry about a "Deadly" adversary. The carebears are weak, but the problem is they are many.
So carebears, how does it feel to be "Satisfied" but not truly happy with the mmorpg you are playing?
So carebears have you truly won?
Yes, I have.
Your premise is that I am "satisfied but not happy." This premise is false, at least for me. I'm completely happy with games that allow me to avoid, and most importantly totally ignore, PVP.
Originally posted by ghost047 You think we can not enjoy a game because we do not PvP, but we have fun with the game.
I know you can have fun only with girlyman content so I laugh in your girly man face! hahahahahaHA!
Originally posted by Gameloading
This is nothing more but YOUR view. people have told you in this thread and many other thread that NOT everybody wants to play like this. however you completely ignore it and keep making posts like this. acting like those people "don't know what fun is".
Yeah man, don't you know that only you, me and maybe damian7 like to play like that. So calm down if don't want to be pillow pwnd by all theese girls!
Originally posted by Steelarm011 I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
I'm not sorry man, but you have to realise that REAL MEN like the two of us can meet only when one runs his blade trough the other one, and even then there is no talking, only smell of sweat and buttcrust with blood slowly driping in the pudle on the ground. Helping each other? Hell NO!! What, are you going carebear on me? Soon you'll ask me to meet and we're gonna start pat each others behinds AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA only thing I can help you with is making another hole in your lungs so you can breath better...
Originally posted by Gameloading
haha, great post. good laugh!
(eh...you were joking, right?)
Nobody takes me serious *sniff* *sniff*
Even though this whole post was a tribute to gameloading and Steelarm and Pantastic, this last part is only for you Steel baby, enjoy:
Even though I said that black is a color, I cant imagine how you could interpret that I meant that black is not white, but ofcourse, you intrerpret my post all the time how you want, without reading them and taking the time out of your busy grinding schedule to think and actualy read it. How can you make such a claim when few posts back you clearly state that white is a color, which obviously means that you want to say that black IS white, when we all know that it isn't. So please stop your campaign of missinformation and slander, all I am trying to do here is be more like EVE, cure cancer and make men out of boys, which you can never become bcause YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME!! memememeememememememememe!!!
Originally posted by fizzle322 Carebears have already lost the most important thing there is for a gamer.
A reason to play.
Can't believe people actually pay money to kill bots.
You assume that your reason to play is everyone's.
What's so consistently funny in this whole debate, that keeps cropping up here day in and day out, is how the hardcore PVP gank crowd really seems to think that the only way to enjoy a game is THEIR way.
Yes, we get it. YOU find a game sterile and boring unless other players can attack you. That's fine for you. WE (the carebears) do not find the game sterile and boring without open PVP. Sorry if you can't fathom that... it's a fact.
I mean, as inconceivable as it may be to me (because I find it utterly boring) there are actually millions of people in the world who love the ballet. Me, I can't sit through 5 minutes of it... but I wouldn't say to someone who enjoyed the ballet, "You're a carebear. Go watch some REAL entertainment." Different things entertain different people. That's why there are 167+ cable channels, 5 different movies or more released every week, and thousands of games on the shelves. If everyone liked the same thing, there'd only be ONE form of entertainment and we'd all do it.
The first and foremost that is usually posted in these forums is the "People dont think its fun" argument. They say that since your able to kill someone in FFA PvP it isnt "fun". Ganking people isnt fun. Getting killed with consequences isnt fun. This has been proven wrong time and time again and they dont listen. The way a game is "fun" is because it is challenging, and once you complete that challenge, you get rewarded, thus its pretty fun. In these new MMO's, there is no challenge. There is NO CHALLENGE in fighting against a bot. As the person before me posted, he doesnt know why people pay to fight against a bot. I dont know either. The majority of players Ive talked to hate playing against bots and hate PvE in general because there is no challenge, thus it isnt fun. And the argument YOU keep clinging to is that because "fighting a bot" is not fun or challenging for YOU, then it cannot be for ANYONE ELSE. This is FALSE. Fun is SUBJECTIVE. You need to learn that just because YOU do not enjoy something doesn't mean I do not enjoy it. And just because YOU find it fun, doesn't mean that I must also find it fun. Carebears don't play games that they find NOT FUN... rather, they don't find fun what YOU find fun.
In FFA PvP, it gets your adrenaline pumping Here's the crux of it. You like to get your adrenaline pumping. Some of us don't. I drive in Seattle traffic 2x a day, to and from work. The idiot drivers in this part of the country get my adrenaline pumping enough for one day. I don't need the "PVP rush" to add more to it, thanks.
I am not saying YOU shouldn't want an adrenaline rush, but don't decide for me that I "really do" and just don't realize it. I. Don't. Want. It.
It's inaccurate to argue that "it is a fact" that anything is fun. Fun is subjective. It may be a fact that it's fun for YOU. It cannot be a fact that it is fun for EVERYONE... because each of us has a different way of enjoying things. Fun is subjective, personal... not objective and factual.
The OP did not degrade anyone, he simply spoke the truth. The truth is, Carebears dont like challenges, they want IMMEDIATE satisfaction of becoming "the best", and are afraid of anything that may threaten that, including dying. That's simply false on its face. It is your view of carebears.
You assume that challenge = PVP, and PVE = boring -- not just for you but for everyone. And that's simply false. If you aren't exploiting the game, a well designed game will, in fact, challenge you with its AI. Of course, the caveat is "well designed." I'll grant you that many games are NOT well designed. Plenty are though... So some of us just actually find a well designed game that gives us just the amount of challenge we want, and play that. We don't all need PVP for that.
So keep on throwing that cash away. Cause im keeping my money, thank you It's only throwing cash away if I'm not having fun. As long as I am, then it's not throwing cash away. And I am having fun in, for instance, the Saga of Ryzom, without doing a lick of PVP, so it's worth the expenditure. You like to say the carebears keep making the same mistakes taking inuslts when they were not meant, and so on. You keep making a different mistake -- assuming everyone in the world has fun the way you do. And that assumption is just flat false.
The point of a game is competition, an unknown outcome, this is what people find entertaining about games and is the main reason people play games. A video game can take the competition one step further in that it allows people to take virtual risks that they might not normally take in real life; taking risks is thrilling.
The less competitive a game is, the less entertaining and thrilling it becomes.
Many games today that lack open player versus player competition are losing out on the most entertaining apsect a game has to offer - direct player competition. Without this, these "games" are more of a way to pass time, like a crossword puzzle, than a competition. As a result, they are less entertaining and less thrilling than they could be.
"Carebears," are essentially players trying to find a way to pass time rather than a way to be entertained and thrilled. They want everything in their life to be easy, understandably, including the games they play. Most companies cater to their desires in order to make money. As a result we have many games that are not as entertaining or thilling as they could be, many games that are just a way to pass time, many games that are not worth my time.
Originally posted by sempiternal The point of a game is competition, an unknown outcome FALSE. The point of a game to some of us is to have fun. Now, in many games one has fun through competition, but it is not the case that competition is the point of all games for all people.
This is what people find entertaining about games and is the main reason people play games.
No. It is the main reason YOU are playing games... and those who agree with you perhaps. It is not the reason "people" play games. You are not omniscient and are powerless to define why "people" do anything.
Taking risks is thrilling. To you. Not to everyone. Going on a rollercoaster is thrilling to some... and unpleasant to others. I know someone who has an inner ear issue, equilibrium issues, etc. It is actually painful for her to ride a rollercoaster, or anything like that, so she doesn't. I happen to like rollercoasters, and think they are thrilling. She would not agree, and would consider them unpleasant and painful instead.
And by the way, a rollercoaster, for all practical purposes, involves no risk... because they're safe, and they rarely have accidents. I know when I get on that there is no chance to get hurt. So I'm not being thrilled because of the risk, but in spite of the fact that there is none... I am enjoying the sensation of rapid movement, which is fun... even though there is no risk.It may well be that risk makes things more fun for YOU. It is simply false to state that risk categorically and objectively increases thrill or fun for everyone.
The less competitive a game is, the less entertaining and thrilling it becomes. Again... for YOU. You're stating it as a fact, but it is an opinion. There's a difference between fact and opinion.
Without this, these "games" are more of a way to pass time, like a crossword puzzle, than a competition. As a result, they are less entertaining and less thrilling than they could be. Lots of people love crossword puzzles and find them entertaining and perhaps even thrilling. Who are you to judge for everyone else what is a thrill and what is not?
"Carebears," are essentially players trying to find a way to pass time rather than a way to be entertained and thrilled.
False. They simiply are entertained or thrilled by things that do not entertain or thrill you. This does not mean they are not, themselves, entertained or thrilled.
To be honest I don't find ANY video games thrilling, and never have... I find them fun, but not thrilling. PVP would not increase this... I just simply don't get "thrills" from video games. My brain's not wired that way. If I'm looking for thrills I'll go to an amusement park or something.
They want everything in their life to be easy You assume this because you happen to find what is fun or entertaining for, say, me, to be easy to you. But you shouldn't assume that what is "easy" for you is "easy" for everyone. After all, I might find doing the Times crossword puzzle a snap and it might be very hard for you. After being bored and unable to complete it for a while, if you said, "Screw this," it would not mean you "wanted everything easy," but rather, that you just don't happen to enjoy that type of challenge. See the fun part is that I, a carebear, can completely understand and accept that some people do need PVP to have fun and be entertained. I find it interesting that people like you don't seem to be able to understand or accept that there are folks out there ("carebears") who can have fun and be entertained without PVP, and actually like games without it better.
many games that are not worth my time. Fair enough. So don't play them. Vote with your money and your feet. Give your $$$ to the companies that produce games that entertain you. And so will I.
If youve gotta come on to a forum to complain about "carebears" and the lack of open-pvp games, then we "carebears" (which is a term to apparently help you "hardcores" sleep better at night....) have already won. Seriosuly dude, if you think that humans adore war and enjoyign the spoils of it, I question the state of your intellect.
Just....stop it.... your embarrasing yourself, send an email to a big or small game compant and bitch to them. Your just making people laugh at you.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Honestly, whats the point of playing a game without risks of losing something. Why do people have to develop cheats and find ways to get around the game mechanics to get ahead? Typical of human beings, always looking for the easy way around things and not up to the challenge of actually having to face some adversity in a game.
Games are so damn easy nowadays, they spoon feed you will tricks, hints books etc. Whats the point if the game is so controllled that there really isnt much reward for what you accomplish for actually playing the game the way it was made.
Listen, Ultima Onilne was rough, hell I almost quit the first week because the Pking was just too much for me. However, I stuck it out, adapted and learned how to survive. It was the most rewarding game for me. When I killled someone or accomplished something, it really felt like I did something. But I think you have to be that type of person to play a game like UO was. I myself take on alot of challenges and adversity in real life, whether it be school or sports. So for me it wasnt that hard to adapt. Alot of people arent like that and hence need a game thats easy and spoon fed to them. I have no problem with that, not every kid can make the High School Sports team, I don't expect everyone to be strong willed. But, now I don't really have a game that challenges me or pushes me to the extreme.
I just wish there was one game like UO back in the day for me and some of my friends that like a game that is rough around the edges and takes a bit more balls to play. Don't be upset at those that want a hardcore game, or like Pking and being evil. Its just a play style they enjoy just like a carebear enjoys a game that isnt difficult or as challenging. The problem is making a game to appeal to both parties, and I have to admit, most players don't want a game like UO used to be. Hence, less profitable and its gonna be that much harder to get a game like that. Sad, but true. I've accepted that.
I don't really look down on carebears, just with there was a game for me
Comments
Well as long as neither side try to ruin a game's core mechanics to suit them (as opposed to GOING elsewhere),don't really care about 'carebears'. I sometimes like to co-operate with the 'enemy',but then I'm open-ended thinking like that.
The only problem is that for people seeking hardcore PvP,there isn't as many 'places' to go,but they'll have to deal with that.
No one ever had trouble getting into a guild and a LOT of large guilds were recruiting from the new player populace.
The group of guilds I played with didn't leave because of the all-the-time-all-over pvp, we'd all left because the folks running UO didn't listen to the players and what the players wanted, ever, at all, about anything. sort of like eq, wow, etc nowadays.
I didn't realize there were carebear shards back in the 'good old uo days', but i suppose there must've been according to antarious. The people that left, were they "soloers" in the MMO land? or were they part of guilds and no one in the guild would avenge them or help hunt down the ones who pk'd them? just wondering how the non-consenual pvp was ruining the game for someone in an active guild?
don't get me wrong, i like soloing myself, but these games aren't diablo; they're made with groups of people in mind. the sandboxes are the best for people who think. the 'hold my hand' games are for the sheep the OP mentions -- no thinking involved, show me what i'm supposed to do next, please.
now, don't read into my statements. people that think DO play the 'hold my hand' games; but they aren't required TO think whilst playing them. after a long day at work, might be nasty weather outside and your choices are down to watching tv/dvd or playing an online game... one of those non-thinking games might be just the thing to help you unwind.
i guess what i'm (not really) getting at here, is that there just needs to be more choices. not just a ton of fantasy games, but a ton of games like toontown, something horror akin to cthulu, sci fi, space, just a lot more CHOICES. then hook a few of those together with a plan like eq's station deal and you have your choices and affordability. throw in some pvp, rp, pvprp and regular servers and voila, there ya go.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
preach on brother beavis!
preach on and one day... one day... the streets shall flow....
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
2) Losing loot in PVP only sucks because of the EQ/WoW template where decent equipment = hours/days/weeks of work to obtain.
The template that WORKS with PVP is the UO/EVE template:
No levels, just skills
No hours of work to get equipment, just buy it from a crafter. Sure it may take a little time to get cash together but eventually even that becomes a non-issue. thus the "pain" of dying is much less due to being well prepared but still enough that people aren't going to be suicidal about PVP for the most part.
PVP works FINE in a truely skill based game. SWG, EVE and UO had/have some of the BEST PVP in the MMO universe. Why? Because they aren't level gated and, more importantly, because losing all your gear doesn't mean you just lost 3 months of camping to get the items. Generally, at most, in those games... it's a few hours of work to get the items (or better) back. Also, in those games, since they're skill based, you can spot your weak areas and improve them by training the skills you lack.
In a level based game you don't have that luxury. It's level based, thus you have to GRIND GRIND GRIND to get to max level where the playing field is "relatively" even.
In a CLASS based game you can never address your weaknesses. You are limited to what abilities are given to your class by the devs. If there's an inherent weakness in the class you have no way to fix it other than hope like hell the developer eventually gets around to either fixing you or nerfing your adversary (and we all know how much fun it is to be nerfed!).
In a LOOT based game you have to spend hours, days, weeks, even months, to get the best gear in the game possible so that you can compete in PVP. If you are able to be looted when you die it is DEVASTATING because you just "lost" those hours/days/weeks/months of time in a flash of agony and despair. Thus a Loot based game has NO business having loot based PVP. On top of that, loot based games become an arena for the powergamers. Where only those with the time (or money) to obtain the top end gear stand a chance in PVP.
WoW, EQ2, SWG:NGE, AO, SoR and others all fall into one (or more) of those categories. Which is why the PVP in them will never compare to PvP in old-style UO, EVE and Pre-CU SWG.
The key difference:
Those 3 titles were all SKILL based systems, with no levels
Those 3 titles were all CRAFTER based equipment, yes you could get loot (in all of them) but it wasn't/isn't any better than the gear you can get from a great crafter. Also because it's relatively easy to obtain there isn't price inflation driving the equipment into the insane category of pricing. Thus it's relatively painless (not completely, but relatively) to recover from being killed and looted.
Granted SWG didn't have looting in PVP (and I honestly don't think it's absolutely necessary) but both EVE and UO do/did. PVP is much more balanced in them as well because it's a SKILL based environment where players can alter and tweak their templates to strengthen areas that are weak. Basically in all those games players don't have to wait for a magical fix from the developer.... if they're weak... they can modify themselves to make them stronger. This often gets called the "FOTM template". But that's ok.... skill based games are all about finding a template that suits you.
Thankfully there are some MMORPG companies trying to stay in the mold of UO/EVE/Pre-CU SWG and go with a classless/level free system. Darkfall is the one I'm currently watching, while I play EVE.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I am wondering if all you PvPer are from the MMO generation or you played on a console before, like a single player game, My God what was your point, fighting agaisnt AI, damn no purpose in that.
But you know what I like in MMO, is I can play with (not agaisnt) many friends without have them in my living room. I have nothing to prove to anyone, I not competitive, I do not need that feeling when I walk around a zone. You do, good for you, I don't.
About Good and Evil in game, only the term is there, but people do not act like that.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
I propose changing the term "CAREBEAR" into "DRONE", drones are good litle sheeps, they don't fight, don't compete with each othere, only listen to the rules and regulations, they don't have the need to prove themselves to anyone, they are content with being a grain of sand on a sandy beach, no diferent then other dust there, they are happy only when they are surounded by the likes of themselves, threatend by the ones that are diferent and ask questions and speak their mind....
I propose drones, because I think carebear is too good of term for them, carebears actualy have some personality and moxy, drones is much better, it reminds me of color gray, how I always picture them..
I'm curious, is there a research done to link gaming habits to real life habits, I always imagine drones (carebears) to be mostly pencil pushers, working in places where everybody wears the same suit and where rules are well set, because rules are good, rules are the way, rules give you safety and rules free you of thought, which sadly makes a conclusion that free mind is only the one that is empty...
Ofcourse I could be wrong, but I'm not
(eh...you were joking, right?)
I used to laugh my ass off when someone would jump me and I'd kill them, then a random mob that was just walking around would loot something off of their corpse that I had left there.
That sounds awesome.
Umm...when did I say that I was not open to people's views? this is a discusssion forum, I expect you to quote me and argue your point as well. I enjoy a good natured discussion. Unfortunatley I dont get that, instead I get these posts that have no contribution to the thread.
I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
Umm...when did I say that I was not open to people's views? this is a discusssion forum, I expect you to quote me and argue your point as well. I enjoy a good natured discussion. Unfortunatley I dont get that, instead I get these posts that have no contribution to the thread.
I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
"
The first and foremost that is usually posted in these forums is the
This has been proven wrong time and time again and they dont listen."People dont think its fun" argument. They say that since your able to
kill someone in FFA PvP it isnt "fun". Ganking people isnt fun. Getting
killed with consequences isnt fun.
The way a game is "fun" is because it is challenging, and once you
complete that challenge, you get rewarded, thus its pretty fun "
This is nothing more but YOUR view. people have told you in this thread and many other thread that NOT everybody wants to play like this. however you completely ignore it and keep making posts like this. acting like those people "don't know what fun is".
Because people like you come here and cry about getting ganked..So what??
False!
Darkfall, Roma Victor, IRTH and several other MMORPG's have been developed with open PVP. EVE is a very successful MMORPG with open PVP.
The REASON not many dev teams make open PVP games is because it's hard to make one that's well balanced and, generally, more people like limited PVP than open PVP. Open PVP sells fewer boxes, period. Developers, for the most part, want to make a profit. The easiest way to make a profit is to appeal to the largest number of players. Open PVP appeals to SOME but MOST do not like it. A well balanced Open PVP system with good restrictions and safer areas CAN work... EVE is the proof. EVE is well balanced. UO was pretty well balanced. No other "open PVP" mmorpg has learned how to do this yet.
- It can't be level based <--- this is very difficult to pull off. Because rather than balancing levels/classes you have to balance any given mix of skills with each other... which can be VERY difficult.
- It can't be item based <--- easy to implement but many devs just don't grasp this one. It REQUIRES a robust (and FUN rather than complicated) crafting system that REWARDS the crafters for their efforts without causing sky-rocketing prices to the players.
- It must have penalties, it can't be COMPLETELY FFA <---- Killing a player MUST have consequences
- It should have relatively 'safe' aka 'policed' areas. <---- People need a place to go where they can 'get away from the stress' or they'll get tired of it.
EVE cracked that code and is slowly but surely reaping the rewards for the hard work by that team.Darkfall may be the next one to crack the code... RV possibly COULD have but poor delivery is hurting them. I personally won't play the game without a free trial first. No way.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
By the very nature of pvp type games they tend to attract a younger fan base. More often than not this leads to an environment ruled by gangs of immature pk'ers roaming around killing everyone in sight just for the hell of it, aka griefing!
What we need is games where pvp has a consequence and determines how the environment reacts to you.
You PvPer have to understand that no one cares if you want to PvP, as long as we do not get Ganked. The Ganking is what we do not like in PvP, not the PvPer
I would love to know what PvPer are in reel life too. Are they bashing everyone around to get to the top just to show they are the best? They absolutely need to prove themselves in front of other because of lack of something?
You think we can not enjoy a game because we do not PvP, but we have fun with the game. PvP is just one part of the game, in fact, PvP is not even the game, it is more like a FPS, it is a competition. If it would be something like: Your quest is to defeat X number of player in PvP or something like that, I would say it is the purpose of the game. Beside that, play Guild Wars, that game is a CORPG, all about PvP.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Your views are irredemly corrupted by a PvP-veil, you can't see past this veil and are unable to differentiate PvE gameplays. In your example, a raider is in the same category as a grouper that is also sharing the same category as a soloer. We didn't even consider the "hardcore" way these players play.
See, someone like Brad McQuaid is making the mistake that casual = solo, while in fact, it has nothing to do with each other. Yes, solo attract casuals since it it available NOW, that doesn't mean that solo = casuals.
See, you describe a small minority of players with your carebears. Most PvE players are willing to take PvE risks and to go to great depth to advance, some helping each others, some fighting each other. Take EQ for example, a fellow player can TRAIN you, he can HELP you, he can wait and hope you wipe to get the fight, he can try to demoralize you so you leave, he can encourage you or give hints.
PvE is far more complex than making such a generalisation. PvE is the maincourse, it is the players who are willing to pay monthly fees to play. PvE can be divided into: Soloing - Grouping - Raiding - Tradeskills/others. The intensity and the cooperation can be fine tuned inside each gameplay, soloers can cooperate and teach each other or they can compete, and so on with the other aspects.
Fame, leader & founder of the Care Bears Inc. Super Guild in CoV.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Calling someone a 'carebear' is insulting them, it's along the same lines as calling anyone who likes PVP a 'ganker'. Until you 'hardcore' types realize this, you're going to keep ending up with the same pattern in your threads. Someone starts a thread, opens it with insults like 'carebear', then whines and tries to play the victim when people respond to the insult. It also doesn't help the case for 'carebear' not being an insult when you write a long rant about 'carebears' and all of their negative characteristics.
But go on, complain that people are prejudiced against 'hardcore' PVPers and cry that you're a victim when what really happens is that people respond to 'hardcore' PVPers in the same tone the 'hardcore' use.
Your premise is that I am "satisfied but not happy." This premise is false, at least for me. I'm completely happy with games that allow me to avoid, and most importantly totally ignore, PVP.
C
I'm not sorry man, but you have to realise that REAL MEN like the two of us can meet only when one runs his blade trough the other one, and even then there is no talking, only smell of sweat and buttcrust with blood slowly driping in the pudle on the ground. Helping each other? Hell NO!! What, are you going carebear on me? Soon you'll ask me to meet and we're gonna start pat each others behinds AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Nobody takes me serious *sniff* *sniff*
Even though this whole post was a tribute to gameloading and Steelarm and Pantastic, this last part is only for you Steel baby, enjoy:
Even though I said that black is a color, I cant imagine how you could interpret that I meant that black is not white, but ofcourse, you intrerpret my post all the time how you want, without reading them and taking the time out of your busy grinding schedule to think and actualy read it. How can you make such a claim when few posts back you clearly state that white is a color, which obviously means that you want to say that black IS white, when we all know that it isn't. So please stop your campaign of missinformation and slander, all I am trying to do here is be more like EVE, cure cancer and make men out of boys, which you can never become bcause YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME!! memememeememememememememe!!!
Peace out!
What's so consistently funny in this whole debate, that keeps cropping up here day in and day out, is how the hardcore PVP gank crowd really seems to think that the only way to enjoy a game is THEIR way.
Yes, we get it. YOU find a game sterile and boring unless other players can attack you. That's fine for you. WE (the carebears) do not find the game sterile and boring without open PVP. Sorry if you can't fathom that... it's a fact.
I mean, as inconceivable as it may be to me (because I find it utterly boring) there are actually millions of people in the world who love the ballet. Me, I can't sit through 5 minutes of it... but I wouldn't say to someone who enjoyed the ballet, "You're a carebear. Go watch some REAL entertainment." Different things entertain different people. That's why there are 167+ cable channels, 5 different movies or more released every week, and thousands of games on the shelves. If everyone liked the same thing, there'd only be ONE form of entertainment and we'd all do it.
C
The point of a game is competition, an unknown outcome, this is what people find entertaining about games and is the main reason people play games. A video game can take the competition one step further in that it allows people to take virtual risks that they might not normally take in real life; taking risks is thrilling.
The less competitive a game is, the less entertaining and thrilling it becomes.
Many games today that lack open player versus player competition are losing out on the most entertaining apsect a game has to offer - direct player competition. Without this, these "games" are more of a way to pass time, like a crossword puzzle, than a competition. As a result, they are less entertaining and less thrilling than they could be.
"Carebears," are essentially players trying to find a way to pass time rather than a way to be entertained and thrilled. They want everything in their life to be easy, understandably, including the games they play. Most companies cater to their desires in order to make money. As a result we have many games that are not as entertaining or thilling as they could be, many games that are just a way to pass time, many games that are not worth my time.
C
If youve gotta come on to a forum to complain about "carebears" and the lack of open-pvp games, then we "carebears" (which is a term to apparently help you "hardcores" sleep better at night....) have already won. Seriosuly dude, if you think that humans adore war and enjoyign the spoils of it, I question the state of your intellect.
Just....stop it.... your embarrasing yourself, send an email to a big or small game compant and bitch to them. Your just making people laugh at you.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Honestly, whats the point of playing a game without risks of losing something. Why do people have to develop cheats and find ways to get around the game mechanics to get ahead? Typical of human beings, always looking for the easy way around things and not up to the challenge of actually having to face some adversity in a game.
Games are so damn easy nowadays, they spoon feed you will tricks, hints books etc. Whats the point if the game is so controllled that there really isnt much reward for what you accomplish for actually playing the game the way it was made.
Listen, Ultima Onilne was rough, hell I almost quit the first week because the Pking was just too much for me. However, I stuck it out, adapted and learned how to survive. It was the most rewarding game for me. When I killled someone or accomplished something, it really felt like I did something. But I think you have to be that type of person to play a game like UO was. I myself take on alot of challenges and adversity in real life, whether it be school or sports. So for me it wasnt that hard to adapt. Alot of people arent like that and hence need a game thats easy and spoon fed to them. I have no problem with that, not every kid can make the High School Sports team, I don't expect everyone to be strong willed. But, now I don't really have a game that challenges me or pushes me to the extreme.
I just wish there was one game like UO back in the day for me and some of my friends that like a game that is rough around the edges and takes a bit more balls to play. Don't be upset at those that want a hardcore game, or like Pking and being evil. Its just a play style they enjoy just like a carebear enjoys a game that isnt difficult or as challenging. The problem is making a game to appeal to both parties, and I have to admit, most players don't want a game like UO used to be. Hence, less profitable and its gonna be that much harder to get a game like that. Sad, but true. I've accepted that.
I don't really look down on carebears, just with there was a game for me