I didnt read all the posts here,In fact I dont enter posts like this most of the time an read but wtf,.here I am.
carebear is a misconception,.There not what most "new" players to the MMO world think they are.most popular games right now restrict pvp,.The MMO game as we know it are still young and going though trail and error.Right now we are seeing the error of restricted pvp.
Sure there's alot of players still having fun..! but how long do you have fun for? alot of games right now get boring after a few months of playing.Its not the fact that theres no open pvp.Its all the crap they have put into there game to restrict griefing and random player killing,kill stealing,High level ganking,looting,farming,and ebaying.
Carebears are players that want easy gold farming,.there NOT YOU THE PLAYER THAT HAS BEEN HERE SINCE WOW.The players from wow did play a good game,.it has some appeal for a few months,.but in the end it becomes a boring grind that dont meen jack shit.
ALOT of good pvpers miss the fear and risk,or they miss the roleplaying that seem to go hand in hand with a open pvp game.On the flip side most softcore games with no pvp dont have good crafting,or they have a game based on crazy loot,.or UBBER loot some may say.this kills the compition for pvp,.most pvpers dont want to grind there life away,.but a non pvp game needs grinds like this to keep there playerbase playing.
This whole conflict between pvper and non pvper has gone to far now,.it seems like 50% of the posters dont know what there talking about.The Carebear is just a player that dont want any other player to effect there game play at all,.they want everything to be easy so they can get rich with out much effort,.But for what? whats the point in having way to much cash? its to sell it on ebay,.so if this is you then yes your a caerbear.
A carebear is not a player that just wants to play and have fun,.Theres 2 grinds in the world of MMORPG's,.Theres skill/level grinds and most pvpers do this grind,.and then theres cash grinds,.Most of us cash grind but only for a short time,.till we have what we want,.CAREBEARS cash grind all the time,.and they do it solo.and dont want any other player at all to effect there grinds or make it harder.
This debate needs to come to a end, and it will soon,.soon a good influx in games will have masterd how to balance the issue and you will all see that this has nothing to do with pvp.And the carebears wich IS NOT MOST OF THE LOOSERS THAT THINK ITS THEM,.the real carebears still complaine in your non pvp games,.end of story.
How can there be carebears if there no Evil Players (The Wolves) as you discribe. If there no more wolfs then there wouldnt be anymore care in bears. So the only part is bear. Who plays the bear? Man does! What do people call man who cant controll is urges? Pigs. So the only people you have to worry about is Man-Bear-Pig.
Originally posted by GungaDin Honestly, whats the point of playing a game without risks of losing something?There are other challenges besides "risks of losing something." If I do the Times crossword puzzle, there is no risk of "losing something" but I might still find it fun and challenging (I don't happen to be a huge crossword puzzle buff, but it's a good example). There's no risk of losing anything playing "solitaire" but it's one of the most popular Windows games ever made. Some people like "beating a challenge" even when there is zero risk.
There are people like this in MMORPGs too. I know people from SWG who were crafters. There was no "risk" to crafting, but their goal was still to make the most perfect items (using experimentation, buffs, good materials, etc) that they could. They weren't risking "losing" anything... but they enjoyed the mental challenge of mixing and matching ingredients.Or there are puzzle games like Rubik's cube. There's no chance you're going to "lose anything" doing a Rubik's cube but when I was a kid everyone had one and we used to sit around at lunch time trying to solve it, and we had a blast.
In short, the premise that risk of loss == fun is not an objective truth... it's true for some people, but not all (and the current industry trends suggest it is not true for the majority of gamers, given what games are popular and what ones are not).
Why do people have to develop cheats and find ways to get around the game mechanics to get ahead?
Some people are lazy. A lot of people would say, "Because this particular mechanic or that one is not fun."Example: About 10 years ago I got hooked on Doom and Doom II. Played them a lot. A few friends also played it and from one of them I learned the "IDBEHOLD" cheat code (the one that turned you into a god, making you invincible). I tried it a bit and said, "OK funny but boring" and went back to normal play.
Then I hit this one level... 19 I think it was. I'd played the whole game honestly to that point, ignoring the cheat code... But I could not get past this spot. You'd go through the door and there were two really powerful guys hurling explosion bombs at you (don't know the technical names for them... been too many years). I tried honestly using power ups, but they did not last long. I tried every weapon in the game. I tried various strategies for a few hours, spread across several days. Finally I said, "OK, this is not fun... I want to get past this to the rest of the level, and rest of the game." I did the cheat, got past it, and went on to solve the whole rest of the game never needing the cheat code again.
I don't consider that "lazy." It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. That part of the game went from being fun to being aggravating, so I circumvented it. You might consider that an atrocity, but I consider it common sense. I do not play games for aggravation -- I get enough of that from real life.
Typical of human beings, always looking for the easy way around things and not up to the challenge of actually having to face some adversity in a game.
Many of us simply do not agree with the proposition that adversity belongs in a game. Games are for fun. If you're suffering or miserable or gnashing your teeth in aggravation you cannot, by definition, be having fun -- unless you're some kind of massochist.
Games are so damn easy nowadays, they spoon feed you will tricks, hints books etc. Whats the point if the game is so controllled that there really isnt much reward for what you accomplish for actually playing the game the way it was made. It's funny how many gamers say this, but then happily go on making the game easy for themselves. Take City of Heroes for example. It's "too easy" people say... and then proceed to slot out every power with a full set of Single Origin enhancers, effectively doubling their own power. If they really wanted a "challenge" and thought the game was "too easy" why don't these people strip all the enhancements OUT of their powers, and play with bare slots? They'd be fighting at half power against enemies whose power level has not changed, so the game would be twice as hard.But no. People who say it's "too easy" never voluntarily "set the game harder." Why is that? Could it be, perhaps, that they don't want it harder for themselves, but because they want it harder for everyone else? I don't know the answer... so that's just a guess. But I can't understand the logic of saying "It's not hard enough" while tricking yourself out with loot that makes you so uber you can solo anything in the game. I mean if you really wanted it to be "hard" why don't you use the newbie gear at level 50? That would make it a "challenge" wouldn't it?
Listen, Ultima Onilne was rough, hell I almost quit the first week because the Pking was just too much for me. However, I stuck it out, adapted and learned how to survive. It was the most rewarding game for me.
You've said the million dollar phrase: "For me." It's not something everyone would find fun or rewarding. Believe it or not, there are thousands of people who do not respond to this kind of "negative conditioning."
I myself take on alot of challenges and adversity in real life, whether it be school or sports. So for me it wasnt that hard to adapt.
When you're still in school it's easy to feel this way. After you've had a decade or three to experience the real adversity of the real world, with all its ups and downs, and the stresses of trying to make a living on your own, etc, it's often not as desirable to find "adversity" in a game. (I am assuming since you used school as your example that you're a young'un... if not then pardon me for making that assumption, though I think my statement's true regardless.)
I don't expect everyone to be strong willed. But, now I don't really have a game that challenges me or pushes me to the extreme.
That's a valid complaint. I agree there ought to be a few out there that are really hardcore, for the really hardcore people who want to be pushed and get enjoyment out of it. It's not for me, but they should be available. However, I will again suggest, that you could "push yourself to the extreme" pretty easily in most games. Use level 30 gear when you're level 50. Use Training enhancers instead of SOs in COH. Go naked into battle. Etc. To most of us that's crazy but if it's really being pushed that you want... why not do it?
I just wish there was one game like UO back in the day for me and some of my friends that like a game that is rough around the edges and takes a bit more balls to play. Don't be upset at those that want a hardcore game, or like Pking and being evil. Its just a play style they enjoy just like a carebear enjoys a game that isnt difficult or as challenging. I completely agree and I have no problem with people who want such a game. I have a problem with them saying that it is a "fact" that their kind of play "is fun" or "thrilling" and that my kind of play "is boring." Those are not facts... they are opinions. If they just took a reasonable stance like you, I'd not even bother to post on threads like this.
The problem is making a game to appeal to both parties I don't understand why it's necessary to even make a game that appeals to both parties, at least in terms of design. Why not have a few games that appeal to each type and let these two, largely incompatible from the looks of this thread, types of players go their separate ways? Why keep throwing the schoolyard bullies and the nerd class together into one room and hoping they get along? The only reason I can think of to need a game that appeals to both, is if we think that one or the other audience is not large enough to support a game by itself. The carebears are certainly large enough, as the carebear-oriented games that are tearing successes have proven. Are the hardcore PVPers large enough? A lot of people say no, but frankly I'm not sure, because I don't know if it's ever been tested. Either way I think the "making the game appeal to both" is the cause of all the bitterness. We'd be better off if the devs decided to appeal to one group and stuck with that, IMO.
and I have to admit, most players don't want a game like UO used to be. Hence, less profitable and its gonna be that much harder to get a game like that. Sad, but true. I've accepted that. I don't really look down on carebears, just with there was a game for me I wish there were games for you to, because frankly I think it's only fair that every gamer has at least one game to call "home." Like you I question whether there are enough people with your drive and desire to "overcome adversity" in a game, to make it worth developing but I hope someone tries. I'm not opposed to PVP-oriented games. I just wish people would stop making assumptions about what is fun or not for anyone but themselves.
Nice post Che. I like a game that can appeal to both sides. It will make for a larger community, more content, different playing styles in one game, and would most likely lead to a longer lifespan for the game overall. More staying Power.
Nice post Che. I like a game that can appeal to both sides. It will make for a larger community, more content, different playing styles in one game, and would most likely lead to a longer lifespan for the game overall. More staying Power.
How can you read his post and not mine? I posted:
How can there be carebears if there no Evil Players (The Wolves) as you describe. If there no more wolfs then there wouldnt be anymore care in bears. So the only part is bear. Who plays the bear? Man does! What do people call man who cant controll is urges? Pigs. So the only people you have to worry about is Man-Bear-Pig.
Jeez, no one what to take me cerial. I mean Man-Bear-Pig must be stop, Im super cerial.
Originally posted by GungaDin Nice post Che. I like a game that can appeal to both sides. It will make for a larger community, more content, different playing styles in one game, and would most likely lead to a longer lifespan for the game overall. More staying Power.
I dont think its possible to make a game where both PVPers and PVEers can co-exist on the same server. A PVPer wants Open PVP and the ability to whack anyone at anytime. A PVEer wants to be able to play in peace without that risk.
Now you can have a game that has PVP servers and NonPVP servers. WoW and many others do that. But that is really the only way to make it functional. Sadly some of the hardcore PVPers cant even accept that as a solution because then all the PVEers are on another server where they cant be killed. And these hardcore PVPers have to contend with other hardcore PVPers.
And again its not carebears fault that this has to happen this way. Its the fault of those few players that take enjoyment from griefing, ganking, and otherwise giving others a hardtime. Find a way to prevent those type of players from ever playing a game and you can have a game that has Open PVP where PVEers can also enjoy the game.
Personally I like PVP sometimes. I have days where I love to fight other players. But I also have days where I just want to do my own thing in peace. SWG, before SOE tore it up, had a terrific system where you could turn PVP on or off at your whim. But that game is dead to me now.
Originally posted by GungaDin Honestly, whats the point of playing a game without risks of losing something.
Entertainment. That's pretty much the whole point of playing games. I'm not really sure why you're asking that question at this point, it's been answered several times.
You 'hardcore' PVPers seem completely unable to comprehend that most other people don't need 'losing something' to enjoy a PVP game, and it's just absurd. Far more people play PVP games that don't include 'losing something' beyond a single match than there are hardcore PVPers, or even MMORPG players. Traditional board games like Chess and Go, simpler board games like Sorry or Monopoly, more complex board wargames, a huge number of computer games in various genres like strategy, RTS, wargame, FPS, action, and sports (many of which boast single games with more players than there are MMORPG players), and of course those live sports that people play in the big blue room with that really bright light.
If humans are meant to experience murder, death, looting a corpse, and all that you may wish to seek a psychiatrist.
If I'm slain in WoW, I still get peeved because it's a trip that makes me go out of the way just to resume what I was doing. I don't lose anything but the annoyance is harsh enough. If you don't like how things are run you're more than welcome to go to Felucca ( I think it is, may be Trammel ) on UO.
Don't immediately assume that is what people want or need. If they thought any different they'd cancel. We have brains, and we use them.
Humans are meant to experience controversey, anger, the sweet taste of revenge, the spoils of war (looting an enemy player) etc........So carebears have you truly won?I don't think so........ Luzarius
I absolutely agree with you, humans are meant to experience a broad range of emotions. However, not all humans want to experience them during their relaxation time, after you've experienced flusteration, anger, and monotony at work... you just dont want to experience more of that while you're trying to relax.
I'm a pvper, uo, ac darktide, daoc, to many muds to count, but I'm also a carebear sometimes... I see the enjoyment of both playstyles. When I'm not in the mood to be pissed off, I don't go where people are going to probally piss me off. When I'm feeling good, i'm all about loggin in and maybe winning maybe loosing... its fun then, sometimes flusterating, sometimes it makes me so made I shake.. but its still fun.
When I'm angry and had a horrible day at work, i jsut want to relax. I think most people are that way.
Edit: I played UO in the "good old days", there were many many many dozens of times i came home and loaded up other games because at that time being ganked by a band of roving asshats wasn't going to be something I could take, it wouldnt have been fun, it would have just flusterated the hell outta me.
I think it's an acquired taste, its not something that you dislike forever, it's a tolerance thing, as you build up tolerance you can tolerate it, then you can begin to enjoy it.
Once you go pvp, you never go back.
It may take months/years to convert you, but it always happens.
Look at WoW. Kind of a halfway solution between carebearism and real pvp. As more and more people experience pvp-lite on the wow pvp servers, they will crave a deeper pvp, because their tolerance for it has increased.
At first carebears will cry and scream, they will protest about being ganked, slowly they will become accustomed to it, and PVE will seem hollow. After a while even PVP-lite will seem hollow, and you will not be able to play any carebear games.
This is why I believe PVP-only games are the wave of the future.
No PVE content can provide you with the endless range of entertainment of facing a real intelligent human opponent. It simply cannot be done.
By the way someone mentioned that you dont have to pvp for entertainment, you can play monopoly or chess.
Monopoly and chess are PVP games.
PVP doesn't mean you have to be ganked.
It simply means you are competing against other players.
For what? I dunno, for strategic advantage, for wealth, on the market, in industry, competing for votes, this is all PVP activities.
Conceptually, there is almost nothing you can do with PVE. It always involves creating artificial intelligence that must be give the player a "good fight" but always lets him win.
This creates a perception that everybody is a winner, and it creates a hollow experience.
Not for certain players. For everybody. I know you cannot look me straight in the eye and say that you find WoW to be a deep and meaningful experience, I will laugh in your face and you will laugh back.
Who are we kidding here?
To some degree players have to be dragged kicking and screaming into an experience they feel uncomfortable with, in order to eventually FEEL something.
You cannot gain anything by staying within your comfort zone.
I am a hardcore PVPer who started off as a carebear. I started off like you, I put up with PVP because my love of space travel was stronger than my hate of being ganked.
Over time it became "normal" for me, and I grew to appreciate open pvp.
In short I was dragged kicking and screaming into PVP before I saw the light.
And I intend to do the same for everybody.
No, I am not doing this to have someone to gank.
I genuinely see this as a service to my fellow man, dragging him kicking and screaming into PVP he adamantly claims not to want, because I know in the end it will be a fulfilling gaming experience for him. Not in 1 week, or 1 month, but over time he will acclimate to it and have a gaming experience that he otherwise would not have had the chance to have.
It is like exercise.
You do not want to exercise, but it is good for you.
I am encouraging you to do it. I will drag you kicking and screaming into the gym, because I do not want you to die an obese coward. If you are going to have a heart attack, do it on the stair climber not at McDonalds.
Originally posted by fizzle322 I think everyone can learn to enjoy...<SNIP>... heart attack, do it on the stair climber not at McDonalds.
I PVP, I enjoy it... sometimes. But I also played eq for 3 years and still judge that experience to be the hands down best MMO experience I ever had... and never engaged in pvp (was on rodcet nife- non-pvp server). UO, AC, WOW, EQ2, EVE, DAOC, AC2, etcetcetc... none of them compare. I grew out of EQ, it wasn't because of raiding or grouping or soloing or pvp or non-pvp, it was because i got sick of my class abilities being given to every other class with no compensation... it annoyed me to the point i quit.
Open-PVP after UO and AC pretty much nauseates me... at the time I enjoyed them-- don't get me wrong. In retrospect though, I can honestly say, I've enjoyed my PVE or Controlled-PVP games much much more.
There is rarely enough penalty in the game to get rid of the griefers. If it werent' for the griefers you'd find me no where but a pvp game, but the griefers make the experience so miserable, so hideous, so unlikeable... that playing a pve mmo is considerably more fun for me.
I don't want to be stressed out during my relaxation time thanks.
Oh and just for reference, you can't drag someone kicking and screaming into anything in life. People don't change when requested people change when they're ready to change.
I'm almost 30 years old, I'm a big boy, i can determine what I like and dislike on my own without any help. I spent *years* in open-pvp and being ganked is still just as flusterating, just as obnoxious, and pisses me off just as much as it did the first time it happened back around 1987.
You can't force anyone else to do anything. Unless things massively change it's really really simple: I won't buy a open-pvp game, I won't install a open-pvp game, and I won't play an open-pvp game. There are always options and alternatives. I choose to exercise mine. I play what I enjoy and that means no games where I'm being ganked randomly by roaming hordes of asshats.
No PVE content can provide you with the endless range of entertainment of facing a real intelligent human opponent. It simply cannot be done.
Yes it can. What you are missing is this little fact: there are two ways to play games -- cooperative and competitive. You use chess and monopoly as examples, and they're good examples of competitive games. However, traditionally roleplaying games are not competitive -- they are cooperative. D&D, Champions, Star Frontiers, Rolemaster, etc, all have one thing in common. Played right, there is no competition. (Sure, played wrong, the GM competes with the players, but only GMs who suck do that, and every single RPG GM guide or manual says that the GM is not in competition with the players and should not acdt that way.)
It's not that one way of gaming is better than the next. But you have to understand that MMORPGs take their roots from roleplaying games, which, as a gaming system and style, are cooperative games, not competitive ones. Thus you make a false assumption when you assume that PVE "can't provide" people with entertainment that PVP can. They are different TYPES of entertainment. PVP provdes you with competitive entertainment. PVE with cooperative. There can also be mixes, such as realm vs. realm, which is a hybridized competitive/cooperative system.
Basically there are 3 types of people:
1. People who like competition, primarily. 2. People who like cooperation, primarily. 3. People who like both competition and cooperation.
The first type will prefer open PVP. The second type will prefer PVE only. And the third type will go more for "regulated PVP" environments, such as GW, where you can PVE in instanced areas or PVP in arenas, or DAOC, where it is RVR and you are competing with the other realm but cooperating with your realm-mates.
PVP doesn't mean you have to be ganked.
Open PVP means you can and will be ganked. And that's what the "hardcore" people are arguing for.
It simply means you are competing against other players.
Not everyone likes competition. Some people like cooperative gaming instead. Nobody's saying that cooperative is objectively better (at least no one with any common sense). But you need to understand that cooperative gaming is a valid form of gaming that has been around for decades, and has a very large following. You need to understand that people who like it better, will never "acquire the taste" for PVP. It's a fundamental personality trait and preference.
When I was younger and my friends and I went to the arcade we split into 2 groups. A pair of us (me and my best friend) would go one way, the other 4 the other way. The other 4 went to Street Fighter II or Mortal Kombat or whatever the newest competitive game was and spend their entire stash of quarters doing that. My best friend and I would go to one of those flying games where you team up as fighter jets against incoming enemy waves, or a game like Xybots which was also cooperative, or we'd play Cyberball (a sci-fi football game), which you could play teamed or against each other, and we always played it teamed, vs. the computer. We just had no interest in "beating" each other... we preferred to cooperate.
Nobody argued or claimed each other was foolhardy. The other guys played their way, and we played ours. (We also swapped a few times, like I would play a few rounds of MK or they would play a game of Cyber ball, but for the most part we had separate tastes). It's not the end of the world that people have different tastes, you know... and there is no reason to try to coerce everyone into having the same taste as you. In fact if that ever succeeded it'd make for a pretty damn boring world.
Conceptually, there is almost nothing you can do with PVE. It always involves creating artificial intelligence that must be give the player a "good fight" but always lets him win.
This creates a perception that everybody is a winner, and it creates a hollow experience.
That's your opinion. Not a fact. In many games I have been whipped by the computer the first time out, and then after a while fought it to a draw, then won. I recently bought Empire Earth II. Never played the first one, but it's a fun RTS game. The very first night I tried it (1 week ago), I set it to "easiest" and my rating to "newbie." I got through the tutorial without much trouble but then in skirmish mode, I got whipped. Resigned twice.
The next day I finally beat it. A few days later I bumped it up to "easier" (one notch harder) but kept myself on "newbie." Had mixed results, but then started doing better. Tonight I moved up to "Easy" and my setting to "average". Lost once, won once. As I get better, I can make the AI harder.
Yes, eventually I will own it on hardest... then I have "beaten the game" and I move on to something else. Why is this "hollow?"
EE II can be played PVP. Know what? I have no interest. I'm trying to get one of my friends to get it (the guy from the arcade days in fact). If he does, we'll probably play co-op against the computer. Why? Because we don't like competing against each other. Ironically it's not because we don't like to lose, but rather, neither of us likes to beat the other one.
I know you cannot look me straight in the eye and say that you find WoW to be a deep and meaningful experience, I will laugh in your face and you will laugh back.
I have never played WoW, but... NO GAME is a meaningful experience. Including ones with your precious, almighty PVP. They are GAMES. Not meant to be meaningful. Meant to be a diversion from the meaningful experiences of your life.
You cannot gain anything by staying within your comfort zone.
Sure you can. You gain comfort. These are, as I said, GAMES... I play them in my comfort zone on purpose. That's how I like it. Who are you to tell me how I should play games or what I should like?
In short I was dragged kicking and screaming into PVP before I saw the light.
And I intend to do the same for everybody.
You will fail. Millions of people would rather be cooperative than competitive. The computer is a preferable enemy for many people.
I genuinely see this as a service to my fellow man, dragging him kicking and screaming into PVP he adamantly claims not to want, because I know in the end it will be a fulfilling gaming experience for him.
No, it won't. You're assuming everyone is like you. We are not all like you.
Originally posted by Steelarm011 I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
I'm not sorry man, but you have to realise that REAL MEN like the two of us can meet only when one runs his blade trough the other one, and even then there is no talking, only smell of sweat and buttcrust with blood slowly driping in the pudle on the ground. Helping each other? Hell NO!! What, are you going carebear on me? Soon you'll ask me to meet and we're gonna start pat each others behinds AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA only thing I can help you with is making another hole in your lungs so you can breath better...
Originally posted by Gameloading
haha, great post. good laugh!
(eh...you were joking, right?)
Nobody takes me serious *sniff* *sniff*
Even though this whole post was a tribute to gameloading and Steelarm and Pantastic, this last part is only for you Steel baby, enjoy:
Even though I said that black is a color, I cant imagine how you could interpret that I meant that black is not white, but ofcourse, you intrerpret my post all the time how you want, without reading them and taking the time out of your busy grinding schedule to think and actualy read it. How can you make such a claim when few posts back you clearly state that white is a color, which obviously means that you want to say that black IS white, when we all know that it isn't. So please stop your campaign of missinformation and slander, all I am trying to do here is be more like EVE, cure cancer and make men out of boys, which you can never become bcause YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME!! memememeememememememememe!!!
Peace out!
Hell yea we're real men!
The other 99% of this post i didnt understand, but thats okay. I still love you seth. I am so flattered you made a huge portion of it devoted to me, really.
But I have to say that reply to pan was pretty bland. Let me show you what happens when you put some UMPH into it:
Originally posted by Pantastic
Originally posted by Steelarm011 The OP did not degrade anyone, he simply spoke the truth. The truth is, Carebears dont like challenges,
Calling someone a 'carebear' is insulting them, it's along the same lines as calling anyone who likes PVP a 'ganker'. Until you 'hardcore' types realize this, you're going to keep ending up with the same pattern in your threads. Someone starts a thread, opens it with insults like 'carebear', then whines and tries to play the victim when people respond to the insult. It also doesn't help the case for 'carebear' not being an insult when you write a long rant about 'carebears' and all of their negative characteristics.
But go on, complain that people are prejudiced against 'hardcore' PVPers and cry that you're a victim when what really happens is that people respond to 'hardcore' PVPers in the same tone the 'hardcore' use.
How is calling someone a carebear insulting them? There has to be a term for this type of people, and thats pretty polite if you ask me. What do you want? Like Seth suggested, girly man? Thats the term, get over it. Its just a name, and there is nothing derogatory about it. If its THAT bad.....get off the ground, wipe the tears from your eyes, and say "Alright! thats how we're branded! I guess I'll have to put up with it." It gonna be okay Pany, really, its gonna be okay
However, calling a hardcore PvP'r a ganker is wrong and an insult for a number of reasons:
a) A ganker is someone who fights unfairly in a game and is also related to the term "griefer" someone who gets pleasure in other peoples's suffering.
b) Not every hardcore PvP'r is a ganker. In fact, having played on PvP servers, Its safe to say there are probably more people with honor than not. The only fact you think that there are more gankers is the fact that you get killed by them and you let that get to you. This is insutling and ignorant.
See seth? Once you put some UMPH into it, its pwnage.
No no seriously now, I wont turn this into another thread like last time. Okay, maybe a little bit. Im sure you understand, in my few minutes of spare time with all of these boring MMO's on the market, all I can do is amuse myself by PK'ing carebears on the message boards, you gotta understand
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
It is funny to read people saying that the more I will PvP the more tolerance I will get, so false. I have been playing MMo for years with a lot of my close friends and to give an exemple, after awhile playing WoW on PvP server we just got fed up with PvP and we moved to regular server, atleast 60 ppl from my guild have move.
The only thing I understand from reading all these post is, PvPers have a close mind, Carebear have an open mind. The only thing PvPers are saying is that Carebears are stupid and mindless because we do not PvP and they keep saying that they do not understand what we like in PvE, how dumb do you have to be to not understand what we are saying. Carebear, we understand that you PvPers need/like/want competition, we do not care about that, we just don't want to be a part of it, very easy to understand.
I never play competition games, only cooperative games, I like to team with my friends and enjoy the game that the company put there to play.
For us Carebears, all PvPers=Gankers As for you PvPers, all PvEers=Carebears
You PvPers are just wasting your time trying to change us, we will not go do PvP, PERIOD. The day we might do PvP is the day there will be a meaning (not talking about looting your enemy), but the day where it will realy affect the game world.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Originally posted by ghost047 It is funny to read people saying that the more I will PvP the more tolerance I will get, so false. I have been playing MMo for years with a lot of my close friends and to give an exemple, after awhile playing WoW on PvP server we just got fed up with PvP and we moved to regular server, atleast 60 ppl from my guild have move.
The only thing I understand from reading all these post is, PvPers have a close mind, Carebear have an open mind. The only thing PvPers are saying is that Carebears are stupid and mindless because we do not PvP and they keep saying that they do not understand what we like in PvE, how dumb do you have to be to not understand what we are saying. Carebear, we understand that you PvPers need/like/want competition, we do not care about that, we just don't want to be a part of it, very easy to understand.
I never play competition games, only cooperative games, I like to team with my friends and enjoy the game that the company put there to play.
For us Carebears, all PvPers=Gankers As for you PvPers, all PvEers=Carebears
You PvPers are just wasting your time trying to change us, we will not go do PvP, PERIOD. The day we might do PvP is the day there will be a meaning (not talking about looting your enemy), but the day where it will realy affect the game world.
Thats not entirely true .I love well present pvp thats fun for all .Like DAoC,you want to pvp then you go to BG and enjoy huge 200+ ppl battles which is risk free and fun.
I still love planetside for the same reason .
But pvp with lose of loot or exp is junk because it encourages lazy people who will gank you while fighting a monster so they can get your gear,they kill noobs,they kill crafters.I recall in my time in UO not a single pker who dared come near me in open ground 1v1 when i was a gm tank/mage.They will only gank if i was in a dungeon fighting a monster or train dragons on me and recall.Sorry the community is right give us fun pvp but we are fed up of no hold bar pvp.Go play shadowbane if you want that!
just felt like throwing my 2 cents in, im a recovering care bear just switch to PvP and i enjoy the mindless monotony of killing someone for well the fun of it and then hunting them down to do it again J/K no but seriously i am starting to enjoy PvP you need no one and nothing from anyone if you choose to help its cuz you want to and if you choose to kill some one on the way to the next town because you had a bad day you can do this is almost a feeling of complete freedom in a game do as you want and if some one has a problem with that. just attack first and hope your skills are better than theirs mwuahahahhaha
I will not be dragged kicking and screaming into loving PVP all the time. The main reason is that PVP in an MMO takes zero skill to play. It will take tactics but it wont take skill. All it is, is mashing buttons.
Case in point. I have a 60 hunter in WoW. I enter a BG like WSG and all I do is hit the tab to target an enemy player, then hit the number '3' key for Concussive Shot followed by the number '4' key for serpent sting then just mash the number '7' key for Arcane shot til they fall. Unless they are casters then I hit the number '8' key to drain their mana. Thats it. Where is the skill?
There is tactics however. Working together to get the flag. That does exist but not skill. No MMO has ever had PVP for me that waas both skill and tactics. If I want true PVP or at least the closest thing to it, I go play a FPS game.
FPS games take some skill. You do have to actually aim. Hand eye coordination is important there. And some games like the MOH series or TFC-like games also take tactics.
excellent post. puts everything in perspective. Unfortunatley for the OP, Vertex and whoever else is supporting this post, I have some bad news to tell you. They wont listen. Ive tried it before, and they resort to the same argument over and over. There are two arguments that carebears cling to. The first and foremost that is usually posted in these forums is the "People dont think its fun" argument. They say that since your able to kill someone in FFA PvP it isnt "fun". Ganking people isnt fun. Getting killed with consequences isnt fun. This has been proven wrong time and time again and they dont listen. The way a game is "fun" is because it is challenging, and once you complete that challenge, you get rewarded, thus its pretty fun. In these new MMO's, there is no challenge. There is NO CHALLENGE in fighting against a bot. As the person before me posted, he doesnt know why people pay to fight against a bot. I dont know either. The majority of players Ive talked to hate playing against bots and hate PvE in general because there is no challenge, thus it isnt fun. In FFA PvP, it gets your adrenaline pumping, your playing against real people (multiplayer?) and you have to watch your back. It forces players into special tactics and makes each gaming expierience unique. Your not running the same boss a billion times. There is purpose to it - to stay alive. And most people ive talked to find PvP alot more fun than clicking on a bunch of bots. The next argument is something even less full of substance, called the "your insulting us cause you support PvP, so your a brutal barbarian that doesnt care about people's feelings:" For example, the first paragraph: Originally posted by vortigen7 Originally posted by BurningPain They uphold law & order...
Citizen (Aka Carebear, The Sheep) - The citizens aka carebears are the peasents. The ones who don't know how to choose or how to react. Too afraid to take risk and worthless on the battlefield. The citizen contributes nothing. Unfortunately the way MMORPG's are now, there are too many citizens and not enough players sworn to good or evil...
Carebears won peace of mind. The carebears are weak, but the problem is they are many...how does it feel to be "Satisfied" but not truly happy with the mmorpg you are playing?
Humans are meant to experience controversey, anger, the sweet taste of revenge, the spoils of war (looting an enemy player) etc...
So carebears have you truly won?
I don't think so........
Luzarius
It's quite evident from your post that you're not a fan of these "carebears", as you so lovingly refer to them. It's also evident that for you to emphasize your position that you have decided to degrade anyone with a playstyle that differs from your own...be they evil, or carebear (I assume that you're of that "law and order" crowd, because it is the one in which you probably feel most full of yourself, and your post comes across as such).
You have this view of yourself as the equalizer...the great cowboy who is out there policing the game world, and meting out justice. However, I'd be inclined to ask, "Who made you the judge?" If you exist to maintain this so-called "law and order", then surely evil must exist right there with you. And were evil not to exist, then there is no need for this "law", to combat a foe that is nonexistant. And so are born "citizens" as you would call them...or your derogatory term, "carebears." Carebears, who do not require a lawman because evil is not allowed to run rampant. Satisified, but not happy? Again, thank you for judging what makes an individual happy and what does not. I would be led to believe that freedom of choice makes one happy, and consequently leads to satisfaction. However, you would have us believe that their happiness is false...because it is not your belief, because it is you who is unhappy and unsatisfied.
This is a common tactic used on these forums. Saying that the PvP supporter is degrading anyone that doesnt agree with him sometimes even claiming because he likes to grief in game. Aboslutely stupid and hilarious.
The OP did not degrade anyone, he simply spoke the truth. The truth is, Carebears dont like challenges, they want IMMEDIATE satisfaction of becoming "the best", and are afraid of anything that may threaten that, including dying. Carebears promote ignorance, meaningless gameplay, a utopia world (there are no enemies, no looting, no death penalties), restricted game mechanics, and repetitve gaming. I will even daresay they promote grinding. They are paying to play with bots.
An insult is only taken not given. Think of it carebears....is it really insulting to say that carebears dont like to fight? It may be blunt, but its the truth...carebears dont like to fight, they want to be secure in their grinding for power, and call anyone "aggressive" or "mean" if they dont think otherwise. This is not an insult. It is just truth.
However you take it as insult. So what does that tell us?
You realize that you are the ones that truly lost. Youve lost the freedom of gaming to development companies that stick you in instances and say "okay kids, play with the bots" ALL THE TIME. That is what WoW is the culmination of - the carebears whining so much they made a utopia game. A game with no challenges and no point. Dare I say...boring? How many players have said that WoW is boring? Quite a bit.
So keep on throwing that cash away. Cause im keeping my money, thank you
Again...thank you for telling everyone what they "lost". I wonder, being as how you are omniscient and omnipresent, that you can even find the time to deal with us underlings?
How can hours of playing against bots be fun? Bots right now are at an ok level, but in all honesty its just a cut and dry routine. You get used to what the difficulty can do and not the chance and human error. That's why I think playing against a human is so vital. One can't simply go and say this is going to happen because he is this difficulty. (Yes even in RTSs they still have a pattern) The unknown is what draws some players into playing.
For example!
Who here goes and checks a strategy guide to a place you've never been to before? OR you're first attempt at something. Its the trill of the unknown. That's also why some people get bored leveling alts. Because there is nothing new or unknown, but to just get into the same niche... Which is the flaw of most games.
That's why I feel that competition should be a part of most games. Not for greafing, but to keep the feeling of there is still something out there in their minds.
Siehst du mich Erkennst du mich Ganz tief in meinem Herz ist noch ein Platz f?r dich Ich suche dich Ich sehne mich nach dem was ich geliebt hab doch ich find es nicht
Originally posted by Kyoruto How can hours of playing against bots be fun?
It doesn't matter. You are not owed any explanation as to why people like what they want. Besides, you are truly not intested in the why for better understanding and appreciating the differences, but rather to get people to change their minds so that your style can be more popular. Which just boils down to you being manipulative.
Because it does not come froma place of respect. YOu want respect? You have to have a mutual respectful interaction between both sides.
You are just posturing. You don't care about any side but your own. Why should other care to participate with you and not just shut you out like PKers are being shut out. The paying community votes with their hard earned money and have put devs on notice that you want small yet overly vocal demanding rude PK style in your game don't expect to get our money.
Comments
I didnt read all the posts here,In fact I dont enter posts like this most of the time an read but wtf,.here I am.
carebear is a misconception,.There not what most "new" players to the MMO world think they are.most popular games right now restrict pvp,.The MMO game as we know it are still young and going though trail and error.Right now we are seeing the error of restricted pvp.
Sure there's alot of players still having fun..! but how long do you have fun for? alot of games right now get boring after a few months of playing.Its not the fact that theres no open pvp.Its all the crap they have put into there game to restrict griefing and random player killing,kill stealing,High level ganking,looting,farming,and ebaying.
Carebears are players that want easy gold farming,.there NOT YOU THE PLAYER THAT HAS BEEN HERE SINCE WOW.The players from wow did play a good game,.it has some appeal for a few months,.but in the end it becomes a boring grind that dont meen jack shit.
ALOT of good pvpers miss the fear and risk,or they miss the roleplaying that seem to go hand in hand with a open pvp game.On the flip side most softcore games with no pvp dont have good crafting,or they have a game based on crazy loot,.or UBBER loot some may say.this kills the compition for pvp,.most pvpers dont want to grind there life away,.but a non pvp game needs grinds like this to keep there playerbase playing.
This whole conflict between pvper and non pvper has gone to far now,.it seems like 50% of the posters dont know what there talking about.The Carebear is just a player that dont want any other player to effect there game play at all,.they want everything to be easy so they can get rich with out much effort,.But for what? whats the point in having way to much cash? its to sell it on ebay,.so if this is you then yes your a caerbear.
A carebear is not a player that just wants to play and have fun,.Theres 2 grinds in the world of MMORPG's,.Theres skill/level grinds and most pvpers do this grind,.and then theres cash grinds,.Most of us cash grind but only for a short time,.till we have what we want,.CAREBEARS cash grind all the time,.and they do it solo.and dont want any other player at all to effect there grinds or make it harder.
This debate needs to come to a end, and it will soon,.soon a good influx in games will have masterd how to balance the issue and you will all see that this has nothing to do with pvp.And the carebears wich IS NOT MOST OF THE LOOSERS THAT THINK ITS THEM,.the real carebears still complaine in your non pvp games,.end of story.
How can you read his post and not mine? I posted:
How can there be carebears if there no Evil Players (The Wolves) as you describe. If there no more wolfs then there wouldnt be anymore care in bears. So the only part is bear. Who plays the bear? Man does! What do people call man who cant controll is urges? Pigs. So the only people you have to worry about is Man-Bear-Pig.
Jeez, no one what to take me cerial. I mean Man-Bear-Pig must be stop, Im super cerial.
Now you can have a game that has PVP servers and NonPVP servers. WoW and many others do that. But that is really the only way to make it functional. Sadly some of the hardcore PVPers cant even accept that as a solution because then all the PVEers are on another server where they cant be killed. And these hardcore PVPers have to contend with other hardcore PVPers.
And again its not carebears fault that this has to happen this way. Its the fault of those few players that take enjoyment from griefing, ganking, and otherwise giving others a hardtime. Find a way to prevent those type of players from ever playing a game and you can have a game that has Open PVP where PVEers can also enjoy the game.
Personally I like PVP sometimes. I have days where I love to fight other players. But I also have days where I just want to do my own thing in peace. SWG, before SOE tore it up, had a terrific system where you could turn PVP on or off at your whim. But that game is dead to me now.
Kai
Entertainment. That's pretty much the whole point of playing games. I'm not really sure why you're asking that question at this point, it's been answered several times.
You 'hardcore' PVPers seem completely unable to comprehend that most other people don't need 'losing something' to enjoy a PVP game, and it's just absurd. Far more people play PVP games that don't include 'losing something' beyond a single match than there are hardcore PVPers, or even MMORPG players. Traditional board games like Chess and Go, simpler board games like Sorry or Monopoly, more complex board wargames, a huge number of computer games in various genres like strategy, RTS, wargame, FPS, action, and sports (many of which boast single games with more players than there are MMORPG players), and of course those live sports that people play in the big blue room with that really bright light.
If humans are meant to experience murder, death, looting a corpse, and all that you may wish to seek a psychiatrist.
If I'm slain in WoW, I still get peeved because it's a trip that makes me go out of the way just to resume what I was doing. I don't lose anything but the annoyance is harsh enough. If you don't like how things are run you're more than welcome to go to Felucca ( I think it is, may be Trammel ) on UO.
Don't immediately assume that is what people want or need. If they thought any different they'd cancel. We have brains, and we use them.
Originally posted by BurningPain
Humans are meant to experience controversey, anger, the sweet taste of revenge, the spoils of war (looting an enemy player) etc........So carebears have you truly won?I don't think so........ Luzarius
I absolutely agree with you, humans are meant to experience a broad range of emotions. However, not all humans want to experience them during their relaxation time, after you've experienced flusteration, anger, and monotony at work... you just dont want to experience more of that while you're trying to relax.
I'm a pvper, uo, ac darktide, daoc, to many muds to count, but I'm also a carebear sometimes... I see the enjoyment of both playstyles. When I'm not in the mood to be pissed off, I don't go where people are going to probally piss me off. When I'm feeling good, i'm all about loggin in and maybe winning maybe loosing... its fun then, sometimes flusterating, sometimes it makes me so made I shake.. but its still fun.
When I'm angry and had a horrible day at work, i jsut want to relax. I think most people are that way.
Edit: I played UO in the "good old days", there were many many many dozens of times i came home and loaded up other games because at that time being ganked by a band of roving asshats wasn't going to be something I could take, it wouldnt have been fun, it would have just flusterated the hell outta me.
Shadus
I think it's an acquired taste, its not something that you dislike forever, it's a tolerance thing, as you build up tolerance you can tolerate it, then you can begin to enjoy it.
Once you go pvp, you never go back.
It may take months/years to convert you, but it always happens.
Look at WoW. Kind of a halfway solution between carebearism and real pvp. As more and more people experience pvp-lite on the wow pvp servers, they will crave a deeper pvp, because their tolerance for it has increased.
At first carebears will cry and scream, they will protest about being ganked, slowly they will become accustomed to it, and PVE will seem hollow. After a while even PVP-lite will seem hollow, and you will not be able to play any carebear games.
This is why I believe PVP-only games are the wave of the future.
No PVE content can provide you with the endless range of entertainment of facing a real intelligent human opponent. It simply cannot be done.
By the way someone mentioned that you dont have to pvp for entertainment, you can play monopoly or chess.
Monopoly and chess are PVP games.
PVP doesn't mean you have to be ganked.
It simply means you are competing against other players.
For what? I dunno, for strategic advantage, for wealth, on the market, in industry, competing for votes, this is all PVP activities.
Conceptually, there is almost nothing you can do with PVE. It always involves creating artificial intelligence that must be give the player a "good fight" but always lets him win.
This creates a perception that everybody is a winner, and it creates a hollow experience.
Not for certain players. For everybody. I know you cannot look me straight in the eye and say that you find WoW to be a deep and meaningful experience, I will laugh in your face and you will laugh back.
Who are we kidding here?
To some degree players have to be dragged kicking and screaming into an experience they feel uncomfortable with, in order to eventually FEEL something.
You cannot gain anything by staying within your comfort zone.
I am a hardcore PVPer who started off as a carebear. I started off like you, I put up with PVP because my love of space travel was stronger than my hate of being ganked.
Over time it became "normal" for me, and I grew to appreciate open pvp.
In short I was dragged kicking and screaming into PVP before I saw the light.
And I intend to do the same for everybody.
No, I am not doing this to have someone to gank.
I genuinely see this as a service to my fellow man, dragging him kicking and screaming into PVP he adamantly claims not to want, because I know in the end it will be a fulfilling gaming experience for him. Not in 1 week, or 1 month, but over time he will acclimate to it and have a gaming experience that he otherwise would not have had the chance to have.
It is like exercise.
You do not want to exercise, but it is good for you.
I am encouraging you to do it. I will drag you kicking and screaming into the gym, because I do not want you to die an obese coward. If you are going to have a heart attack, do it on the stair climber not at McDonalds.
C
I PVP, I enjoy it... sometimes. But I also played eq for 3 years and still judge that experience to be the hands down best MMO experience I ever had... and never engaged in pvp (was on rodcet nife- non-pvp server). UO, AC, WOW, EQ2, EVE, DAOC, AC2, etcetcetc... none of them compare. I grew out of EQ, it wasn't because of raiding or grouping or soloing or pvp or non-pvp, it was because i got sick of my class abilities being given to every other class with no compensation... it annoyed me to the point i quit.
Open-PVP after UO and AC pretty much nauseates me... at the time I enjoyed them-- don't get me wrong. In retrospect though, I can honestly say, I've enjoyed my PVE or Controlled-PVP games much much more.
There is rarely enough penalty in the game to get rid of the griefers. If it werent' for the griefers you'd find me no where but a pvp game, but the griefers make the experience so miserable, so hideous, so unlikeable... that playing a pve mmo is considerably more fun for me.
I don't want to be stressed out during my relaxation time thanks.
Shadus
Oh and just for reference, you can't drag someone kicking and screaming into anything in life. People don't change when requested people change when they're ready to change.
I'm almost 30 years old, I'm a big boy, i can determine what I like and dislike on my own without any help. I spent *years* in open-pvp and being ganked is still just as flusterating, just as obnoxious, and pisses me off just as much as it did the first time it happened back around 1987.
You can't force anyone else to do anything. Unless things massively change it's really really simple: I won't buy a open-pvp game, I won't install a open-pvp game, and I won't play an open-pvp game. There are always options and alternatives. I choose to exercise mine. I play what I enjoy and that means no games where I'm being ganked randomly by roaming hordes of asshats.
Shadus
I could have used some help in that other thread man. I was getting triple teamed at one point. Was fun tho.
I'm not sorry man, but you have to realise that REAL MEN like the two of us can meet only when one runs his blade trough the other one, and even then there is no talking, only smell of sweat and buttcrust with blood slowly driping in the pudle on the ground. Helping each other? Hell NO!! What, are you going carebear on me? Soon you'll ask me to meet and we're gonna start pat each others behinds AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Nobody takes me serious *sniff* *sniff*
Even though this whole post was a tribute to gameloading and Steelarm and Pantastic, this last part is only for you Steel baby, enjoy:
Even though I said that black is a color, I cant imagine how you could interpret that I meant that black is not white, but ofcourse, you intrerpret my post all the time how you want, without reading them and taking the time out of your busy grinding schedule to think and actualy read it. How can you make such a claim when few posts back you clearly state that white is a color, which obviously means that you want to say that black IS white, when we all know that it isn't. So please stop your campaign of missinformation and slander, all I am trying to do here is be more like EVE, cure cancer and make men out of boys, which you can never become bcause YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ME!! memememeememememememememe!!!
Peace out!
Hell yea we're real men!
The other 99% of this post i didnt understand, but thats okay. I still love you seth. I am so flattered you made a huge portion of it devoted to me, really.
But I have to say that reply to pan was pretty bland. Let me show you what happens when you put some UMPH into it:
Calling someone a 'carebear' is insulting them, it's along the same lines as calling anyone who likes PVP a 'ganker'. Until you 'hardcore' types realize this, you're going to keep ending up with the same pattern in your threads. Someone starts a thread, opens it with insults like 'carebear', then whines and tries to play the victim when people respond to the insult. It also doesn't help the case for 'carebear' not being an insult when you write a long rant about 'carebears' and all of their negative characteristics.
But go on, complain that people are prejudiced against 'hardcore' PVPers and cry that you're a victim when what really happens is that people respond to 'hardcore' PVPers in the same tone the 'hardcore' use.
How is calling someone a carebear insulting them? There has to be a term for this type of people, and thats pretty polite if you ask me. What do you want? Like Seth suggested, girly man? Thats the term, get over it. Its just a name, and there is nothing derogatory about it. If its THAT bad.....get off the ground, wipe the tears from your eyes, and say "Alright! thats how we're branded! I guess I'll have to put up with it." It gonna be okay Pany, really, its gonna be okay
However, calling a hardcore PvP'r a ganker is wrong and an insult for a number of reasons:
a) A ganker is someone who fights unfairly in a game and is also related to the term "griefer" someone who gets pleasure in other peoples's suffering.
b) Not every hardcore PvP'r is a ganker. In fact, having played on PvP servers, Its safe to say there are probably more people with honor than not. The only fact you think that there are more gankers is the fact that you get killed by them and you let that get to you. This is insutling and ignorant.
See seth? Once you put some UMPH into it, its pwnage.
No no seriously now, I wont turn this into another thread like last time. Okay, maybe a little bit. Im sure you understand, in my few minutes of spare time with all of these boring MMO's on the market, all I can do is amuse myself by PK'ing carebears on the message boards, you gotta understand
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Steelarm, Doctor of MMO gaming, ethics, and ideas.
The only thing I understand from reading all these post is, PvPers have a close mind, Carebear have an open mind.
The only thing PvPers are saying is that Carebears are stupid and mindless because we do not PvP and they keep saying that they do not understand what we like in PvE, how dumb do you have to be to not understand what we are saying. Carebear, we understand that you PvPers need/like/want competition, we do not care about that, we just don't want to be a part of it, very easy to understand.
I never play competition games, only cooperative games, I like to team with my friends and enjoy the game that the company put there to play.
For us Carebears, all PvPers=Gankers
As for you PvPers, all PvEers=Carebears
You PvPers are just wasting your time trying to change us, we will not go do PvP, PERIOD. The day we might do PvP is the day there will be a meaning (not talking about looting your enemy), but the day where it will realy affect the game world.
Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!
Thats not entirely true .I love well present pvp thats fun for all .Like DAoC,you want to pvp then you go to BG and enjoy huge 200+ ppl battles which is risk free and fun.
I still love planetside for the same reason .
But pvp with lose of loot or exp is junk because it encourages lazy people who will gank you while fighting a monster so they can get your gear,they kill noobs,they kill crafters.I recall in my time in UO not a single pker who dared come near me in open ground 1v1 when i was a gm tank/mage.They will only gank if i was in a dungeon fighting a monster or train dragons on me and recall.Sorry the community is right give us fun pvp but we are fed up of no hold bar pvp.Go play shadowbane if you want that!
Case in point. I have a 60 hunter in WoW. I enter a BG like WSG and all I do is hit the tab to target an enemy player, then hit the number '3' key for Concussive Shot followed by the number '4' key for serpent sting then just mash the number '7' key for Arcane shot til they fall. Unless they are casters then I hit the number '8' key to drain their mana. Thats it. Where is the skill?
There is tactics however. Working together to get the flag. That does exist but not skill. No MMO has ever had PVP for me that waas both skill and tactics. If I want true PVP or at least the closest thing to it, I go play a FPS game.
FPS games take some skill. You do have to actually aim. Hand eye coordination is important there. And some games like the MOH series or TFC-like games also take tactics.
Kai
It's quite evident from your post that you're not a fan of these "carebears", as you so lovingly refer to them. It's also evident that for you to emphasize your position that you have decided to degrade anyone with a playstyle that differs from your own...be they evil, or carebear (I assume that you're of that "law and order" crowd, because it is the one in which you probably feel most full of yourself, and your post comes across as such).
You have this view of yourself as the equalizer...the great cowboy who is out there policing the game world, and meting out justice. However, I'd be inclined to ask, "Who made you the judge?" If you exist to maintain this so-called "law and order", then surely evil must exist right there with you. And were evil not to exist, then there is no need for this "law", to combat a foe that is nonexistant. And so are born "citizens" as you would call them...or your derogatory term, "carebears." Carebears, who do not require a lawman because evil is not allowed to run rampant. Satisified, but not happy? Again, thank you for judging what makes an individual happy and what does not. I would be led to believe that freedom of choice makes one happy, and consequently leads to satisfaction. However, you would have us believe that their happiness is false...because it is not your belief, because it is you who is unhappy and unsatisfied.
This is a common tactic used on these forums. Saying that the PvP supporter is degrading anyone that doesnt agree with him sometimes even claiming because he likes to grief in game. Aboslutely stupid and hilarious.
The OP did not degrade anyone, he simply spoke the truth. The truth is, Carebears dont like challenges, they want IMMEDIATE satisfaction of becoming "the best", and are afraid of anything that may threaten that, including dying. Carebears promote ignorance, meaningless gameplay, a utopia world (there are no enemies, no looting, no death penalties), restricted game mechanics, and repetitve gaming. I will even daresay they promote grinding. They are paying to play with bots.
An insult is only taken not given. Think of it carebears....is it really insulting to say that carebears dont like to fight? It may be blunt, but its the truth...carebears dont like to fight, they want to be secure in their grinding for power, and call anyone "aggressive" or "mean" if they dont think otherwise. This is not an insult. It is just truth.
However you take it as insult. So what does that tell us?
You realize that you are the ones that truly lost. Youve lost the freedom of gaming to development companies that stick you in instances and say "okay kids, play with the bots" ALL THE TIME. That is what WoW is the culmination of - the carebears whining so much they made a utopia game. A game with no challenges and no point. Dare I say...boring? How many players have said that WoW is boring? Quite a bit.
So keep on throwing that cash away. Cause im keeping my money, thank you
Again...thank you for telling everyone what they "lost". I wonder, being as how you are omniscient and omnipresent, that you can even find the time to deal with us underlings?
"They that can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither."
Edit: OMG vortigen, you got Orlando Bloom as your avatar picture loooooooooooooooool
For example!
Who here goes and checks a strategy guide to a place you've never been to before? OR you're first attempt at something. Its the trill of the unknown. That's also why some people get bored leveling alts. Because there is nothing new or unknown, but to just get into the same niche... Which is the flaw of most games.
That's why I feel that competition should be a part of most games. Not for greafing, but to keep the feeling of there is still something out there in their minds.
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
How is calling someone a carebear insulting them?
Because it does not come froma place of respect. YOu want respect? You have to have a mutual respectful interaction between both sides.
You are just posturing. You don't care about any side but your own. Why should other care to participate with you and not just shut you out like PKers are being shut out. The paying community votes with their hard earned money and have put devs on notice that you want small yet overly vocal demanding rude PK style in your game don't expect to get our money.
bye!