Over the past couple days in my AP English Language class we've been doing in-class debates over hot topics such as abortion, capital punishment, and things like that. Tomorrow we're going to be arguing whether or not intelligent design should be taught in the classroom. I'm not going to go into what my personal opinion is about that topic because that's not the purpose of this thread. However, I was talking to my friend earlier today who's also in my english class (he's a very devout Jew, but still does not believe religion or any form of it has any place in school, including intelligent design). We got into the topic of religion in preparation for tomorrow's class, and he gave me one of the best and least refutable points I've ever heard about the whole topic. This is it:
The main idea behind intelligent design is that life is far too complex to have started without some sort of higher power guiding it. Where, then, did the higher power come from? Must it not be infinitely more complex than even life itself? If so, then does it too not need a creator? One would of course argue that no, it does not. "God" as a being or a power has been there since the beginning of time. If this is true, and this absolute power (God) can manifest itself from nothing, then why can't a universe? Why must "God" manifest itself first, and then create the universe? Why can't the universe itself spring forth from nothing?
the problem is that when we try to look at this subject logically, than it messes with our minds mostly do too the fact that humans cannot understand infinity or time itself. I do agree with him, in that someone had to create the universe, and i believe that he had been around forever (no beginning, no end). The universe coming from nothing is absurd imo.....but thats ok.....we cant all think alike.
Also, i believe that the earth isnt that old.... 8000 years at most.....and every year, it comes closer to destruction.
If we start teaching intelligent design in school, then kids are going to think they can believe that and get a job as a scientist somewhere. And when they walk into the first job interview and say that we don't have to look at fossil records, or study geological strata because fossil records are false and the Earth is only 6,000 years old, they're not going to get a job anywhere. Would you hire them to do scientific research? They wouldn't be able to pull anything together if they believe that garbage.
Originally posted by reavo If we start teaching intelligent design in school, then kids are going to think they can believe that and get a job as a scientist somewhere. And when they walk into the first job interview and say that we don't have to look at fossil records, or study geological strata because fossil records are false and the Earth is only 6,000 years old, they're not going to get a job anywhere. Would you hire them to do scientific research? They wouldn't be able to pull anything together if they believe that garbage.
There already are plenty of scientists who are also religious. Why do you assume they wouldn't believe fossil records? Or, that they believe the earth is only 6000 years old? You're getting into sects of religion when you bring those things up. Not all christian sects (for example) look at the bible as a science textbook. God was dealing with men in an ancient world in the bible. God's revelations that he was the creator would hardly involve anything remotely resembling a modern scientific lecture. He would involve nothing more than general concepts that the recipients of the revelations could understand. Genesis, for example. Creation of light, earth, beast, humans, etc.
Originally posted by knightknife Originally posted by Nihilanth
Over the past couple days in my AP English Language class we've been doing in-class debates over hot topics such as abortion, capital punishment, and things like that. Tomorrow we're going to be arguing whether or not intelligent design should be taught in the classroom. I'm not going to go into what my personal opinion is about that topic because that's not the purpose of this thread. However, I was talking to my friend earlier today who's also in my english class (he's a very devout Jew, but still does not believe religion or any form of it has any place in school, including intelligent design). We got into the topic of religion in preparation for tomorrow's class, and he gave me one of the best and least refutable points I've ever heard about the whole topic. This is it: The main idea behind intelligent design is that life is far too complex to have started without some sort of higher power guiding it. Where, then, did the higher power come from? Must it not be infinitely more complex than even life itself? If so, then does it too not need a creator? One would of course argue that no, it does not. "God" as a being or a power has been there since the beginning of time. If this is true, and this absolute power (God) can manifest itself from nothing, then why can't a universe? Why must "God" manifest itself first, and then create the universe? Why can't the universe itself spring forth from nothing?
the problem is that when we try to look at this subject logically, than it messes with our minds mostly do too the fact that humans cannot understand infinity or time itself. I do agree with him, in that someone had to create the universe, and i believe that he had been around forever (no beginning, no end). The universe coming from nothing is absurd imo.....but thats ok.....we cant all think alike.
Also, i believe that the earth isnt that old.... 8000 years at most.....and every year, it comes closer to destruction.
wow man how can you think the earth is only 8000 years old, i dont get why you think the earth is only 8000 years old, are you kidding in that statement, or are you serious.
Originally posted by lardmouth Originally posted by reavo If we start teaching intelligent design in school, then kids are going to think they can believe that and get a job as a scientist somewhere. And when they walk into the first job interview and say that we don't have to look at fossil records, or study geological strata because fossil records are false and the Earth is only 6,000 years old, they're not going to get a job anywhere. Would you hire them to do scientific research? They wouldn't be able to pull anything together if they believe that garbage.
There already are plenty of scientists who are also religious. Why do you assume they wouldn't believe fossil records? Or, that they believe the earth is only 6000 years old? You're getting into sects of religion when you bring those things up. Not all christian sects (for example) look at the bible as a science textbook. God was dealing with men in an ancient world in the bible. God's revelations that he was the creator would hardly involve anything remotely resembling a modern scientific lecture. He would involve nothing more than general concepts that the recipients of the revelations could understand. Genesis, for example. Creation of light, earth, beast, humans, etc. The bible differetiates between man beast and animal in Genesis.
Zerogenum - MixMatched BH Carbineer Template of the Gods, Kettemoor PRE CU SWG.
Originally posted by Blurr Um reavo where'd you get all that garbage you just said? I've never seen anything from christianity saying that fossil records are false, or that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Quit with the smoke and mirrors dude.
That's because you don't come from a sect of christianity that teaches that. There are those who believe those sort of things though. Reavo, is making a big mistake in lumping all christian sects together though. Besides, I don't believe an ID'er would believe in those things. I think he's confused on Intelligent design.
Originally posted by Zerogenum Originally posted by lardmouth Originally posted by reavo If we start teaching intelligent design in school, then kids are going to think they can believe that and get a job as a scientist somewhere. And when they walk into the first job interview and say that we don't have to look at fossil records, or study geological strata because fossil records are false and the Earth is only 6,000 years old, they're not going to get a job anywhere. Would you hire them to do scientific research? They wouldn't be able to pull anything together if they believe that garbage.
There already are plenty of scientists who are also religious. Why do you assume they wouldn't believe fossil records? Or, that they believe the earth is only 6000 years old? You're getting into sects of religion when you bring those things up. Not all christian sects (for example) look at the bible as a science textbook. God was dealing with men in an ancient world in the bible. God's revelations that he was the creator would hardly involve anything remotely resembling a modern scientific lecture. He would involve nothing more than general concepts that the recipients of the revelations could understand. Genesis, for example. Creation of light, earth, beast, humans, etc. The bible differetiates between man beast and animal in Genesis. What?
Originally posted by //\//\oo ROFL! Right.... so where did those dinosaurs come from? ZOMG! Maybe they are the fallen angels that rebelled with satan against god! What about the other humanoid creatures on earth? Oh wait, maybe dinosaurs were part of Eden? .... Adam and Eve were.. DINOSAURS! F***ING AWSOME! Christianity rocks!
I'll answer you as a christian. The bones come from....dinosaurs. I'm not sure why you assume christians dispute dinosaurs or even evolution as a whole. Catholics have no teaching that denies the Big Bang or Evolution or sets the age of the earth or the universe. And catholicism is the largest christian sect.
Eh? That's news to me. God created man EX NIHILO, according to Christianity; which is in direct contradiction to evolution and the big bang.
Man didn't evolve from Neanderthals, but was created directly by god. If you want to go so far as to dismiss the literal interpretations as symbolism, then it would be pretty hard to determine exactly what the bible meant and you'd have one hell of a convoluted religion on your hands.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by lardmouth Originally posted by Blurr Um reavo where'd you get all that garbage you just said? I've never seen anything from christianity saying that fossil records are false, or that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Quit with the smoke and mirrors dude.
That's because you don't come from a sect of christianity that teaches that. There are those who believe those sort of things though. Reavo, is making a big mistake in lumping all christian sects together though. Besides, I don't believe an ID'er would believe in those things. I think he's confused on Intelligent design.
Reavo has a tendency to lump all christian sects in together. It's one of the many 'smoke and mirrors' tricks he uses try try and attack christianity while he claims that his religion loves everyone (I know, ironic isn't it?). Again I think you're probably also right on him being confused about Intelligent Design. Some people are very quick to attack something before they even know what they're talking about.
I have always held to the belief that Intelligent Design just means that yes Evolution is true, but God made Evolution that way on purpose.
I don't know who came up with this bullcrap about 6,000 years of the earth, lol.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by //\//\oo Eh? That's news to me. God created man EX NIHILO, according to Christianity; which is in direct contradiction to evolution and the big bang. Man didn't evolve from Neanderthals, but was created directly by god. If you want to go so far as to dismiss the literal interpretations as symbolism, then it would be pretty hard to determine exactly what the bible meant and you'd have one hell of a convoluted religion on your hands.
Not at all really. The problem is that you're placing human limitations and physics on an Ominpotent being. It just says that he 'created' Adam. Not that he 'grew Adam out of a dust ball 2 meters high and it took 28 minutes'.
One of the major points of faith is that there has to be some small possibility of doubt within it's teachings. That's where the faith comes in. You have to have a little bit of faith to believe these things. If there was no doubt, then nobody would have to decide for themselves whether or not to join the religion, because we'd all know it happened and we'd all know that everything said was fact. Then we'd all know our exact course in life, and that wouldn't be freedom.
God wants you to make your own decision whether or not to believe in Him. He's said we should, but He won't force us to worship him.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by boognish75 Originally posted by knightknife Originally posted by Nihilanth Over the past couple days in my AP English Language class we've been doing in-class debates over hot topics such as abortion, capital punishment, and things like that. Tomorrow we're going to be arguing whether or not intelligent design should be taught in the classroom. I'm not going to go into what my personal opinion is about that topic because that's not the purpose of this thread. However, I was talking to my friend earlier today who's also in my english class (he's a very devout Jew, but still does not believe religion or any form of it has any place in school, including intelligent design). We got into the topic of religion in preparation for tomorrow's class, and he gave me one of the best and least refutable points I've ever heard about the whole topic. This is it: The main idea behind intelligent design is that life is far too complex to have started without some sort of higher power guiding it. Where, then, did the higher power come from? Must it not be infinitely more complex than even life itself? If so, then does it too not need a creator? One would of course argue that no, it does not. "God" as a being or a power has been there since the beginning of time. If this is true, and this absolute power (God) can manifest itself from nothing, then why can't a universe? Why must "God" manifest itself first, and then create the universe? Why can't the universe itself spring forth from nothing?
the problem is that when we try to look at this subject logically, than it messes with our minds mostly do too the fact that humans cannot understand infinity or time itself. I do agree with him, in that someone had to create the universe, and i believe that he had been around forever (no beginning, no end). The universe coming from nothing is absurd imo.....but thats ok.....we cant all think alike.
Also, i believe that the earth isnt that old.... 8000 years at most.....and every year, it comes closer to destruction.
wow man how can you think the earth is only 8000 years old, i dont get why you think the earth is only 8000 years old, are you kidding in that statement, or are you serious. nah, i wasnt joking, give me proof that its more.....u believe in that evolution crap?
Originally posted by //\//\oo Eh? That's news to me. God created man EX NIHILO, according to Christianity; which is in direct contradiction to evolution and the big bang. Man didn't evolve from Neanderthals, but was created directly by god. If you want to go so far as to dismiss the literal interpretations as symbolism, then it would be pretty hard to determine exactly what the bible meant and you'd have one hell of a convoluted religion on your hands.
It's not as easy as saying genesis is symbolic in it's description of creation. It's more of a practicality. For instance, if I was to tell someone, who lacked any knowledge of modern science or math, about gravity, I wouldn't bust out equations and start the discussion from a subatomic level. I'd simply say that two objects of mass attract one another. Maybe over time we could then discus why two objects would attract each other, peeling away layer after layer. Maybe down to even a sub-atomic level. Now, if I was wanting to explain to an ancient man that he is made from the same periodic elements that can be found in the natural world, I'd say he's made from the clay of the very earth. Then I'd get past that and get down to issues of how I wanted my people to live.
First off let me just say that the Hebrew style of Genesis is not written in the poetic fashion which would denote symbolism. There are parts of the bible that are written in that fashion, but not genesis. It is meant to be taken as a literal translation, not a symbol.
evolution theory states that millions of changes in DNA code occur over long periods of time and the final result is a constant change in genetic structure.
fact: no change in DNA has ever been observed do all of the above:
cause a change in genetic information
Have the animal survive
Be a beneficial Mutation(there are three types of mutations, detrimental, beneficial, and neutral)
With this knowledge, I cannot see how anybody can reasonably believe in the theory of evolution as it is commonly represented in schools. Given all that I know about the subject (I know a lot about it, pm me if you have questions, I'm not going to check this thread constantly) I honestly believe that a belief in creation by a higher God is much more reasonable to believe than evolution is.
With this in mind, I believe that if we are to be teaching evolution in schools, then it needs to be presented as theory(because it IS), and that creationists need to have a fair shake at arguing their point, as well as being fairly and accurately represented in text books. If there is one thing that gets me, it is school teachers telling their students that evolution is fact. Because it is anything but Fact.
It may be able to answer some of the questions that I cannot, and if you are unwilling to read the information on the website, then please do not bother trying to refute my statement that evolution is nothing but theory.
ps. on the age of the world thing...the most accurate dating methods place the age of the oldest rocks found at about 8000 years old. It's not crazy, it's a matter of inconsistencies with the amount of c-14 carbon that leaves the rocks every year. If the speed was a constant, then radio carbon dating would always be accurate, unfortuntaely, the speed at which C-14 carbon leaves rocks has been proven to be inconsistent and therefore radio carbon dating is by in large highly innacuurate.
I have not always believed in the Bible, or in Christianity, but the more factual stuff that I learned, the more it all made sense. I used to believe in evolution by God, fortunately though, I have aquired enough knowledge about the subject to get my own views straight. I am no longer a product of public school indoctrination.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Don't you see how you're appending an axiom to every instance of god? Doesn't all of the rationalization seem kind of ad hoc to you?
"God isn't limited to physical constraints, because he is infinite." => I'll give god another property, because I can't explain why. New axiom!
"There are uncertainities within the bible, because god wanted you to have faith." => The bible is very vague, so I'll add another axiom about god that states that god requires faith from his followers.
The rest is just application.
It's obvious that I'm a fervent atheist, but I've never said why:
If we're too stupid to comprehend the universe, then why should we even care about our creation? Why focus on our origins instead of trying to understand the fundamentals of the universe in which we live?
The universe is becoming more and more complex the further we investigate: String theory, which was complex by itself, is still being revised to accomodate new observations in physics.
Why put faith in a book that was written over 2000 years ago, before the notion of empiricism was even fully developed. (Although the Greeks and Egyptians were ahead of their time)
Even if the bible were true, why should we stop there? Why shouldn't we try to investigate and prove the bible, conforming it to what we find instead of what we find to it? Why not give children the necessary tools to reason and then let them make their own conjectures, as uncertain as we are about the universe ourselves?
Since there is absolutely no empirical basis for creationism, why teach it to children? Neither logic nor reason has a formal proof for it, so why should we push it on our children?
Evolution itself has at the very least an empirical basis to it: I am not advocating that it should be taught as truth, but that creationism lacks an empirical basis to even be considered intelligibly.
Most importantly: Creationism promotes intellectual lazyness; it is far easier to assume creationism to be true than to develop a consistent physical theory about the universe.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by //\//\oo Originally posted by daeandor
This is the most ignorant statement I have seen by someone trying to be smart. It shows a complete lack of comprehension when it comes to understanding how and why people believe in religeon. Blatently stating that you must be an idiot to believe anything outside the realm of science is your own "copout." And then your solution is to only teach science in school so that you can eradicate creationism? That's an interesting concept, maybe we could eliminate a lot of other things we don't like too while we're at it. Maybe, in your school, we could teach only math and science. Forget those pesky arts and humanities, they don't provide any substantial benefit to child development or society.
I'm glad you agree. It's a shame they never taught you how to spell religion in your school.
Yeah, you must be an idiot to accept anything that simple without empirical proof or at least creating a rational system to juxtapose it to other physical phenomenon.
Where is the consistent system of axioms from your creationists? Oh, that's right: Most of them don't have the necessary education in physics to propound one.
You people crack me up.
You are by far the most ignorant person on these boards and that is no small feat. It's obvious you *want* to feel intelligent, yet your whole argument is that anyone who believes in creationism is too stupid to understand? And that no modern physists believe in creationism? When did you last do a census of global mathmaticians and physists to determine this 'fact'? Talk about talking out your a** but calling for empirical data about creationism? And I had a freaking typo in an unedited post and you call me stupid? Do you really want me to search EVERY one of your posts for typos?
NEWS FLASH FOR MOO: Self educating yourself on a subject on the web does not count in lieu of intelligence and common sense.
I don't know what "smart" is: Some people call it high scores on an IQ test contrived by psychologists, others call it creativity.....
BTW, your spelling errors are no ordinary typos: Physist is clearly a childish phonetic spelling of physicist; you even made the mistake after having read my post where I clearly spelled it correctly.
I call you stupid? Me no see stupid in post. You make inference! YOU TOO SMARTZ! WITCH, WITCH, BURN!
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by Blurr I'm sorry Razorback, but I don't see how either of those arguments has anything to do with God.
Actually I disagree.
If the bible and other books related to their respective religions are to be believed. Then we are the only life in the universe.
If the bible is the word of god and life exists elsewhere, then why didnt he mention in the books, that we are 1 of a few thousand projects hes working on right now ?
Id say the exsitence of extraterestrial life is the most likely proof of the non existence of god you could ever ask for.
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If the bible and other books related to their respective religions are to be believed. Then we are the only life in the universe. Why? Where does it (the bible) say we're the only life in the universe?
If the bible is the word of god and life exists elsewhere, then why didnt he mention in the books, that we are 1 of a few thousand projects hes working on right now ? Why would he mention it? Yeah, he doesn't say "There is other life outside of this world!" However, he also doesn't say, "Life on earth is the only life throughout the universe!" It's entirely mute on the matter. You can't draw conclusions from something not even discussed in the bible. It's neutral. And, why would he mention it? Why would he tell people of that time period something that involves scientific concepts they wouldn't even have the barest notion of? Of course, this all assumes you believe in the God of the bible (or torah).
Id say the exsitence of extraterestrial life is the most likely proof of the non existence of god you could ever ask for. How does something totally unrelated to anything discussed in the biblem contradict the bible? Therefore, disproving God?
I agree the bible is pretty non descript on the subject of life in the rest of the universe. But the concepts of a god worshiped by earth people has always seemed kind of incongruous to me when you start to wonder how we came to the concept of god.
It just seems to me that a god of man is almost mutually exclusive ot the idea of extra terrestrial life. I mean what if super intelligent beings who have been around for imeasurably longer than us rolled up on our doorstep tomorrow. They are friendly, we talk to them and say, "so whats up with God then ?" They reply "God ? WTF is that ?" and they have no concept of a deity. Makes for intersting thought in terms of the liklehood of our God existing.
Just some reading to give you an insight on my PoV
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Ah Razor, I wasn't trying to necessarily say you were wrong, I just didn't see where what you said had to do with God, but I understand now, heh.
But as I think Lardmouth said, the bible doesn't actually say we're the only life in the universe.
It's plausible to think that perhaps there are even actual humans on other planets made in God's image the way we were.
Also, there's a theory that 'aliens' are mentioned in religious texts. Now this is just a theory I have heard, so don't go getting all nuts over it people. Now in some religious texts it talks about demons or souls or whoever that sided with Lucifer when they were cast out of heaven. One of the things that's mentioned about these beings is that they weren't given bodies like we were. The theory goes that the aliens people talk about when seeing UFOs or being abducted or whatever, are actually one and the same as those beings without human bodies. Supposedly they abduct and probe people because they want bodies like us, but they just have their weird alien bodies.
Now that may sound crazy to some, it may make sense to others. Take it as you like it.
The reason why the Bible didn't mention extraterrestrial life is because it didn't need to. I mean, people at the time it was written wouldn't understand it really anyways.
Think of the Bible as sort of a 'guidebook to being human'. The only catch is that the guidebook has to be made in such a way that people can disbelieve it if they want to. That's one of the major points of religion that alot of people seem to miss, and I notice that alot of conversations on these boards tend to ignore the fact when someone says it or change subject, lol.
The fact is that religion has to be something that isn't a 100% guarantee. It has to be this way so you are free to choose your own path in life. If everything in the Bible was 100% provable fact, then nobody would need any faith, we wouldn't need to believe in things, because it would all just be true no matter what.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Razorback I agree the bible is pretty non descript on the subject of life in the rest of the universe. But the concepts of a god worshiped by earth people has always seemed kind of incongruous to me when you start to wonder how we came to the concept of god. It just seems to me that a god of man is almost mutually exclusive ot the idea of extra terrestrial life. I mean what if super intelligent beings who have been around for imeasurably longer than us rolled up on our doorstep tomorrow. They are friendly, we talk to them and say, "so whats up with God then ?" They reply "God ? WTF is that ?" and they have no concept of a deity. Makes for intersting thought in terms of the liklehood of our God existing. Just some reading to give you an insight on my PoV http://www.stnews.org/Commentary-890.htm
What if these super intelligent beings came down and said "Oh hey, we're christians too, lets have a picnic". Or even "Wow, your concept of God gives us meaning in the universe, tell us more!"
Just because he is a God of man, doesn't mean he can't be a God of other things.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Comments
Also, i believe that the earth isnt that old.... 8000 years at most.....and every year, it comes closer to destruction.
Um reavo where'd you get all that garbage you just said?
I've never seen anything from christianity saying that fossil records are false, or that the earth is only 6,000 years old.
Quit with the smoke and mirrors dude.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Also, i believe that the earth isnt that old.... 8000 years at most.....and every year, it comes closer to destruction.
wow man how can you think the earth is only 8000 years old, i dont get why you think the earth is only 8000 years old, are you kidding in that statement, or are you serious.
playing eq2 and two worlds
The bible differetiates between man beast and animal in Genesis.
Zerogenum - MixMatched BH Carbineer Template of the Gods, Kettemoor PRE CU SWG.
ROFL!
Right.... so where did those dinosaurs come from? ZOMG! Maybe they are the fallen angels that rebelled with satan against god!
What about the other humanoid creatures on earth? Oh wait, maybe dinosaurs were part of Eden? .... Adam and Eve were.. DINOSAURS! F***ING AWSOME!
Christianity rocks!
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
The bible differetiates between man beast and animal in Genesis.
What?
Eh? That's news to me. God created man EX NIHILO, according to Christianity; which is in direct contradiction to evolution and the big bang.
Man didn't evolve from Neanderthals, but was created directly by god. If you want to go so far as to dismiss the literal interpretations as symbolism, then it would be pretty hard to determine exactly what the bible meant and you'd have one hell of a convoluted religion on your hands.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Reavo has a tendency to lump all christian sects in together. It's one of the many 'smoke and mirrors' tricks he uses try try and attack christianity while he claims that his religion loves everyone (I know, ironic isn't it?). Again I think you're probably also right on him being confused about Intelligent Design. Some people are very quick to attack something before they even know what they're talking about.
I have always held to the belief that Intelligent Design just means that yes Evolution is true, but God made Evolution that way on purpose.
I don't know who came up with this bullcrap about 6,000 years of the earth, lol.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Not at all really. The problem is that you're placing human limitations and physics on an Ominpotent being. It just says that he 'created' Adam. Not that he 'grew Adam out of a dust ball 2 meters high and it took 28 minutes'.
One of the major points of faith is that there has to be some small possibility of doubt within it's teachings. That's where the faith comes in. You have to have a little bit of faith to believe these things. If there was no doubt, then nobody would have to decide for themselves whether or not to join the religion, because we'd all know it happened and we'd all know that everything said was fact. Then we'd all know our exact course in life, and that wouldn't be freedom.
God wants you to make your own decision whether or not to believe in Him. He's said we should, but He won't force us to worship him.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Also, i believe that the earth isnt that old.... 8000 years at most.....and every year, it comes closer to destruction.
wow man how can you think the earth is only 8000 years old, i dont get why you think the earth is only 8000 years old, are you kidding in that statement, or are you serious.
nah, i wasnt joking, give me proof that its more.....u believe in that evolution crap?
First off let me just say that the Hebrew style of Genesis is not written in the poetic fashion which would denote symbolism. There are parts of the bible that are written in that fashion, but not genesis. It is meant to be taken as a literal translation, not a symbol.
evolution theory states that millions of changes in DNA code occur over long periods of time and the final result is a constant change in genetic structure.
fact: no change in DNA has ever been observed do all of the above:
cause a change in genetic information
Have the animal survive
Be a beneficial Mutation(there are three types of mutations, detrimental, beneficial, and neutral)
With this knowledge, I cannot see how anybody can reasonably believe in the theory of evolution as it is commonly represented in schools. Given all that I know about the subject (I know a lot about it, pm me if you have questions, I'm not going to check this thread constantly) I honestly believe that a belief in creation by a higher God is much more reasonable to believe than evolution is.
With this in mind, I believe that if we are to be teaching evolution in schools, then it needs to be presented as theory(because it IS), and that creationists need to have a fair shake at arguing their point, as well as being fairly and accurately represented in text books. If there is one thing that gets me, it is school teachers telling their students that evolution is fact. Because it is anything but Fact.
I would also like to point you towards this website: http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/features/where-was-God
It may be able to answer some of the questions that I cannot, and if you are unwilling to read the information on the website, then please do not bother trying to refute my statement that evolution is nothing but theory.
ps. on the age of the world thing...the most accurate dating methods place the age of the oldest rocks found at about 8000 years old. It's not crazy, it's a matter of inconsistencies with the amount of c-14 carbon that leaves the rocks every year. If the speed was a constant, then radio carbon dating would always be accurate, unfortuntaely, the speed at which C-14 carbon leaves rocks has been proven to be inconsistent and therefore radio carbon dating is by in large highly innacuurate.
I have not always believed in the Bible, or in Christianity, but the more factual stuff that I learned, the more it all made sense. I used to believe in evolution by God, fortunately though, I have aquired enough knowledge about the subject to get my own views straight. I am no longer a product of public school indoctrination.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Don't you see how you're appending an axiom to every instance of god? Doesn't all of the rationalization seem kind of ad hoc to you?
"God isn't limited to physical constraints, because he is infinite." => I'll give god another property, because I can't explain why. New axiom!
"There are uncertainities within the bible, because god wanted you to have faith." => The bible is very vague, so I'll add another axiom about god that states that god requires faith from his followers.
The rest is just application.
It's obvious that I'm a fervent atheist, but I've never said why:
If we're too stupid to comprehend the universe, then why should we even care about our creation? Why focus on our origins instead of trying to understand the fundamentals of the universe in which we live?
The universe is becoming more and more complex the further we investigate: String theory, which was complex by itself, is still being revised to accomodate new observations in physics.
Why put faith in a book that was written over 2000 years ago, before the notion of empiricism was even fully developed. (Although the Greeks and Egyptians were ahead of their time)
Even if the bible were true, why should we stop there? Why shouldn't we try to investigate and prove the bible, conforming it to what we find instead of what we find to it? Why not give children the necessary tools to reason and then let them make their own conjectures, as uncertain as we are about the universe ourselves?
Since there is absolutely no empirical basis for creationism, why teach it to children? Neither logic nor reason has a formal proof for it, so why should we push it on our children?
Evolution itself has at the very least an empirical basis to it: I am not advocating that it should be taught as truth, but that creationism lacks an empirical basis to even be considered intelligibly.
Most importantly: Creationism promotes intellectual lazyness; it is far easier to assume creationism to be true than to develop a consistent physical theory about the universe.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
I'm glad you agree. It's a shame they never taught you how to spell religion in your school.
Yeah, you must be an idiot to accept anything that simple without empirical proof or at least creating a rational system to juxtapose it to other physical phenomenon.
Where is the consistent system of axioms from your creationists? Oh, that's right: Most of them don't have the necessary education in physics to propound one.
You people crack me up.
You are by far the most ignorant person on these boards and that is no small feat. It's obvious you *want* to feel intelligent, yet your whole argument is that anyone who believes in creationism is too stupid to understand? And that no modern physists believe in creationism? When did you last do a census of global mathmaticians and physists to determine this 'fact'? Talk about talking out your a** but calling for empirical data about creationism? And I had a freaking typo in an unedited post and you call me stupid? Do you really want me to search EVERY one of your posts for typos?
NEWS FLASH FOR MOO: Self educating yourself on a subject on the web does not count in lieu of intelligence and common sense.
I don't know what "smart" is: Some people call it high scores on an IQ test contrived by psychologists, others call it creativity.....
BTW, your spelling errors are no ordinary typos: Physist is clearly a childish phonetic spelling of physicist; you even made the mistake after having read my post where I clearly spelled it correctly.
I call you stupid? Me no see stupid in post. You make inference! YOU TOO SMARTZ! WITCH, WITCH, BURN!
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Actually I disagree.
If the bible and other books related to their respective religions are to be believed. Then we are the only life in the universe.
If the bible is the word of god and life exists elsewhere, then why didnt he mention in the books, that we are 1 of a few thousand projects hes working on right now ?
Id say the exsitence of extraterestrial life is the most likely proof of the non existence of god you could ever ask for.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Actually I disagree.
If the bible and other books related to their respective religions are to be believed. Then we are the only life in the universe. Why? Where does it (the bible) say we're the only life in the universe?
If the bible is the word of god and life exists elsewhere, then why didnt he mention in the books, that we are 1 of a few thousand projects hes working on right now ? Why would he mention it? Yeah, he doesn't say "There is other life outside of this world!" However, he also doesn't say, "Life on earth is the only life throughout the universe!" It's entirely mute on the matter. You can't draw conclusions from something not even discussed in the bible. It's neutral. And, why would he mention it? Why would he tell people of that time period something that involves scientific concepts they wouldn't even have the barest notion of? Of course, this all assumes you believe in the God of the bible (or torah).
Id say the exsitence of extraterestrial life is the most likely proof of the non existence of god you could ever ask for. How does something totally unrelated to anything discussed in the biblem contradict the bible? Therefore, disproving God?
my head hurts ..ohh and god does exsist......
isnt that all that matters ??
There is in Error with in this page please press alt and F4 to fix the proplem
I agree the bible is pretty non descript on the subject of life in the rest of the universe. But the concepts of a god worshiped by earth people has always seemed kind of incongruous to me when you start to wonder how we came to the concept of god.
It just seems to me that a god of man is almost mutually exclusive ot the idea of extra terrestrial life. I mean what if super intelligent beings who have been around for imeasurably longer than us rolled up on our doorstep tomorrow. They are friendly, we talk to them and say, "so whats up with God then ?" They reply "God ? WTF is that ?" and they have no concept of a deity. Makes for intersting thought in terms of the liklehood of our God existing.
Just some reading to give you an insight on my PoV
http://www.stnews.org/Commentary-890.htm
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Ah Razor, I wasn't trying to necessarily say you were wrong, I just didn't see where what you said had to do with God, but I understand now, heh.
But as I think Lardmouth said, the bible doesn't actually say we're the only life in the universe.
It's plausible to think that perhaps there are even actual humans on other planets made in God's image the way we were.
Also, there's a theory that 'aliens' are mentioned in religious texts. Now this is just a theory I have heard, so don't go getting all nuts over it people. Now in some religious texts it talks about demons or souls or whoever that sided with Lucifer when they were cast out of heaven. One of the things that's mentioned about these beings is that they weren't given bodies like we were. The theory goes that the aliens people talk about when seeing UFOs or being abducted or whatever, are actually one and the same as those beings without human bodies. Supposedly they abduct and probe people because they want bodies like us, but they just have their weird alien bodies.
Now that may sound crazy to some, it may make sense to others. Take it as you like it.
The reason why the Bible didn't mention extraterrestrial life is because it didn't need to. I mean, people at the time it was written wouldn't understand it really anyways.
Think of the Bible as sort of a 'guidebook to being human'. The only catch is that the guidebook has to be made in such a way that people can disbelieve it if they want to. That's one of the major points of religion that alot of people seem to miss, and I notice that alot of conversations on these boards tend to ignore the fact when someone says it or change subject, lol.
The fact is that religion has to be something that isn't a 100% guarantee. It has to be this way so you are free to choose your own path in life. If everything in the Bible was 100% provable fact, then nobody would need any faith, we wouldn't need to believe in things, because it would all just be true no matter what.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
What if these super intelligent beings came down and said "Oh hey, we're christians too, lets have a picnic". Or even "Wow, your concept of God gives us meaning in the universe, tell us more!"
Just because he is a God of man, doesn't mean he can't be a God of other things.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000