Originally posted by Aetius73 Originally posted by baff
I can't say I'm over the moon about paying all this tax. You government intervenes every bit as much as mine. You have more legislation and 10 times the rate of imprisonment. Funny you should consider us cowards, that's exactly how we think of your soldiers.
Its not our soldiers that are the cowards its the left leaning part of our government that wants to cut and run all the time.
I was thinking of the young French that had a country wide riot because the government was gonna take away their protection from being fired or laid off. We have a saying here the greater the risk the greater the reward. Yeah they might have been fired, but then they might have gotten a job that pays more too.
So, in your opinion, a war is only about how well armed you are? Tell that to those guys in afghanistan.
Its a big part of it but not all of it of course. Tactics and training also play a large part in it as well. Lets face it all the Russians knew how to do was fling peasants at the germans until they ran out of bullets. They fact that they lost 20 million taking on 3 million drives that point home.
Originally posted by baff My government didn't write the CIA factbook. My government says EU law does not supercede our own laws. It says the EU is not a federal body and never will be so long as we are a part of it. "You" maybe working on a single foreign policy, but we are working against that.
No one who was offered a vote approved it. No one.
Ireland, when offered a vote rejected it, but was made to vote again. My country wasn't offered the vote at all, because they new they couldn't win it. If only 1 country refuses, it isn't ratified.
They had a vote, and you don't like the results, so you choose to ignore them. Luckily, our Army is MUCH bigger than yours, so there isn't much you can do about it is there?
War is the only way you will unite the EU, the only way it has ever been united before and it's the same way all the other federations managed to unite. The only problem is Britain and France are nuclear powers, so you can't fight them at all. And they are both utterly unable to agree with eachother about anything. Their national intrests are too conficted.
EU does not supercede national law, they are not automatically adopted in my country or even yours. You will notice that many EU directives are not made law in any number of countries. (Example: Digital Rights Copywright Laws). You will also note that EU fines go unpaid. If that country is France, Germany or Italy, you can whistle for the money, as we have seen over monetary Union. The EU doesn't have the authority to fine people. When push came to shove all it had was bark and no bite.
Mandelson may speak for the EU council about trade, but he doesn't speak for the individual nations. They still speak for themselves.
Certain diplomatic agreements are legally binding. These are called Treaties. A country signed up to a treaty must ratify it or risk losing any benefits offered by it. However the countries are still sovergein nations and may break or withdraw from any treaty they wish at any time. National Law supercedes international treaties. The American and Russian States do not have that privilage. For them to do so is to trigger a civil war automatically.
No nation will ever lose control of it's own troops, not to Nato and not to the EU. Nice fantasy. All that will happen is that no one will deploy under an EU mandate. They will still operate together in all the same conflicts, but under the guise of NATO or the "Coalition of the Willling" or some other name invented for the specific campaign. The country who provides the largest contingent of troops will take overall control of any operation, business as usual. No one in the EU will ever have a say, until the EU raises it's own EU army and contributes the largest force to an operation.
Nice EU fantasy you have there. Shame it doesn't mirror reality. Or rather, a massive releif as that would undoubtably trigger WW3. We don't want a federal Europe. Too many of our family members have died to prevent it. It will never be so. If you try and force it, you will die.
Look, you are from the UK, right? Point 1: get more informed. Spain (44 million inhabitants) approved the constitution by referendum. Point 2: call it however you want, but if the EU approves a regulation or a directive, each member state has to apply it. Regulations are automatically applied, directives don't, but as I said if you don't apply them you'll be fined, and yes, everyone has to pay the fines without exception. Treaties are a different way to apply the legislation, but they are not commonly used, normaly they are used for example when giving the EU more competence over new policies. Point 3: Mandelson speaks for the EU, and as you know the EU manages the trade policies, so Mandelson speaks for everyone. Neither the UK or France could go against the EU in this field. Point 4: you don't want a federal Europe. I don't like to generalize, but it's true that most of british are euroskeptics. Poor british, don't you realize that if you continue to boycott the EU sooner or later you won't be welcome here? (and it's a shame, I really love GB!), and if you think you can survive isolated from the rest of the continent you are very ignorant (don't give me the example of Norway or Switzerland, they are not in the EU but they share many policies with us and even contribute to the EU, if you get out of here you won't be treated that well).
I seem to remember the steel workers all protesting in America too. Did you find them cowardly?
Frances labour laws and even Germany's don't bother since they don't affect me. In the Early 80's the government took on the Unions here. The country stopped.
France is a revolution culture, Britain is not. If the government messes them around, they risk having their heads cut off. French people don't take the same level of interference from their government as we Brits do. I'm always a little bit envious when after their rioting, they win conscessions, and here in England when we try it, we just lose without much of a fight.
Originally posted by Aetius73 Originally posted by Meon So, in your opinion, a war is only about how well armed you are?Tell that to those guys in afghanistan. Its a big part of it but not all of it of course. Tactics and training also play a large part in it as well. Lets face it all the Russians knew how to do was fling peasants at the germans until they ran out of bullets. They fact that they lost 20 million taking on 3 million drives that point home.
They lost 20 million in the entire war, of which mostly civilians. But then again what do you expect from someone who is given a rifle with 4 bullets in it?
Those were militias though. The actual Russian army was alot better equipped, trained and motivated.
Look, you are from the UK, right? Point 1: get more informed. Spain (44 million inhabitants) approved the constitution by referendum. Point 2: call it however you want, but if the EU approves a regulation or a directive, each member state has to apply it. Regulations are automatically applied, directives don't, but as I said if you don't apply them you'll be fined, and yes, everyone has to pay the fines without exception. Treaties are a different way to apply the legislation, but they are not commonly used, normaly they are used for example when giving the EU more competence over new policies. Point 3: Mandelson speaks for the EU, and as you know the EU manages the trade policies, so Mandelson speaks for everyone. Neither the UK or France could go against the EU in this field. Point 4: you don't want a federal Europe. I don't like to generalize, but it's true that most of british are euroskeptics. Poor british, don't you realize that if you continue to boycott the EU sooner or later you won't be welcome here? (and it's a shame, I really love GB!), and if you think you can survive isolated from the rest of the continent you are very ignorant (don't give me the example of Norway or Switzerland, they are not in the EU but they share many policies with us and even contribute to the EU, if you get out of here you won't be treated that well).
I can't speak for Spain it seems, but the EU doesn't make any regulations here. Only directives.
Mandelson Speaks for the EU, but not for all the countries that contribute to it. He speaks for the EU institution only. We are all quite happy to speak for ourselves still. Rather like the UN. The EU institution is a centre for trade negotiation and agreement. A common forum where the business of international trade can be completed faster.
Mandelsons job is a joke. He's irrelevent. He got sacked from government here twice for corruption. He's out to pasture somewhere he can't affect anything in an invented job created by his friends.
France and The U.K. can go against the EU in any field. They frequently do.
We are willing to share many policies with you and contribute to the EU, but not to be regulated by you. We don't boycott the EU, we are one of the largest contributers to it. When you start as much as us, you will have as much say in it's running. And if you were thinking of trying to isolate us, you might want to remember what happened every other time you have tried it.
I do ask you - all of you - to keep it civil and constructive. Neither of you'll be helping the country/union you're rooting for by bashing the 'opposing' country. Quite the opposite, it'll give others from your general area a bad name and reinforce whatever (senseless) stereotypes you already were associated with. Remember, folks, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Thanks, and have a good debate!
BigDogOfBria, I would like to add one thing though. I think what he meant was that the Dutch aided the Americans financially after your war for independence. The Dutch gave you 12 million dollars, which equalled to America's entire foreign debt. Most of that was scratched from your history books, however, due to the Netherlands' activity in slave trading.
Carry on!
Civil and constructive? Of course, since I'm a white american I have to be civil and constructive. God forbid I display any animosity towards another country or race. Everyone is free to trash the US as much as they want. The OP basically calls us all bums, using statistics from our own newspapers, and I'm just supposed to politely accept it. While women are stoned in the streets in Saudi Arabia for being accused adulterers. I wouldn't have a college degree today if it wasn't for the aid of the federal government, but children in North Korea have to read by the lights on Kim Jong Il's statues in order to study, because those are the only lights on in the city. Do you have any idea how many Billions and Billions of dollars the United States spends on Foreign Aid each year. Egypt recieves 8 billion dollars from us every year, just for being Egypt, and they protest us every chance they get. And that's just one country. Think about all the american innovations that make your lives better. The light bulb. The fiber optic switch. The telephone. The radio. Rocket Fuel. Jazz music. Over the last one hundered and fifty years we've tried to drag this planet out of the dark ages and all I hear is what horrible degenerates we are. We fought and killed eachother in the nineteenth century over the rights of Africans in Bondage.
I hear all this criticizm of George Bush. My vote went to another canidate. I won't defend him, but I will defend the system that put him there. The same system that will remove him from office in two years. You see in America we change our leadership often so if by some mischance the wrong man gets in there is only a limited amount of damage that he can do.
Let me tell you something about americans. My grandfather was a ranger. From 1940 to 1944 he served his country fighting in Africa and Europe. Four years of his twenties. And when it was done he came back home, raised four children, then spent the rest of his life drinking in dark rooms with undiagnosed post-traumatic stress disorder. Then he died without a penny to his name at the age of 64. I'm wasting my breath. People are fools. Most of them know nothing about what self sacrifice is.
We owe you nothing. If it was up to me I'd let the rest of the world solve it's own problems. Fortunately for you, it isn't.
The problem with being the best and being a world leader is that you have to start taking responsibility for the rest of the world's less fortunate circumstances. What is Europe doing to help the world? How many nations have you given the right to rule back to the people in the last 200 hundred years? How many economies have you dumped a substantial amount of cash into jumpstarting so that those people could be affluent democracies. I see Britain, Spain and Italy making some efforts and as much as I hate to admit it the French did come to bat for Middle East peace after they were kicked in the butt by the UN after intially only pledging 200 troops for the peace effort. How is Europe gonna use all this wealth to promote the well fare of all the human race not just themselves? For the last 100 years the United States has been incredibly generous to other nations. I am glad you guys have such a wonderful GDP when can we expect the money we spent to jump start your economies in the fifties back? Finland paid us back what about the rest of you dead beats? Oh wait we never made you sign a contract or a repayment plan how generous of us.
Europe has helped the world more than anyone else. It was us that spread civilization from Alaska to Patagonia, through Africa, Oceania and most of Asia. We've developed territories, and given them their independence under a democratic governments (what some of them have done latter on it's not our fault). No matter how much money the US gives, it won't never be comparable to what we've done (and I highly doubt the US gave money to the Europe because you were generous rather than interested in having a strong Europe to eventually fight against the USSR)
How was it profitable for us to build these economies?
If you don't know the answer to this question, then I'm afraid I must say that you truly lack fundamental knowledge regarding global economics and international politics.
Your thinking in terms of an integrated world economy. In 1945 the United States was a self contained economy that produced everything we needed. By rebuilding these countries being idiots about tariffs we allowed them into our markets. By undercutting local industry here it began a cycle of Americans loosing millions of jobs because of cheap foreigh imports. This would be fine if the rest of the world reciprocated, but unlike us they are not generous at all with their tariffs thus our goods do not compete on an even playing field. The result is our trade imbalance which is slowly sucking us dry. How is this of benefit to us? Its of benefit to YOU. You would like us to go on being ignorant until we are completly broke wouldn't you?
Right now, there is nothing the world wants more than for you to let it solve it's own problems. There doesn't seem to be very much limit to the damage one man can do in 8 years given the kid of power America has to wield.
How much of your foreign aid is paid in military hardware?
I see plenty of food bags with USA written on them. More than anyone elses. Your people's contribution is not lost on me.
Radio and the lightbulb were invented by the British, Germany had Rockets first. (Other than the Chinese kind).
We fought and killed eachother in the nineteenth century over the rights of Africans in Bondage.
It took you long enough. We'd been fighting you over it for years.
Originally posted by baff I can't speak for Spain it seems, but the EU doesn't make any regulations here. Only directives. Mandelson Speaks for the EU, but not for all the countries that contribute to it. He speaks for the EU institution only. We are all quite happy to speak for ourselves still. Rather like the UN. The EU institution is a centre for trade negotiation and agreement. A common forum where the business of international trade can be completed faster. Mandelsons job is a joke. He's irrelevent. He got sacked from government here twice for corruption. He's out to pasture somewhere he can't affect anything in an invented job created by his friends.blah blah blah
No regulations in the UK? man, they are applied everywhere without distinction, you are quite brainwashed. And yes, Mandelson speaks for the EU and for all the countries in the trade field, for example each time there's a WTO meeting, and his job is very, very important, for example when deciding the tariffs.
similarly, Kofe Annan doesn't speak for the whole world when he talks, he speaks for the UN institution. He is not the president of the world.
Should the EU trade comission fail to get a deal in Britains favour, it can always opt out. Mandelson maybe authorised to speak for the EU, but the EU is not authorised to speak for Britain. It'a great enviroment to make international trade agreements and we have our diplomats and trade commisioners employed for that job. I hang out with a few of them. They do a lot of work around the EU and other Embassies.
Plenty of regulations in the U.K. man, all of them voted on by parliament.
What are these Regulations of which you speak then? Most likely we opted out of those.
We don't recognise any power higher than God and Queens. Rulings made at the European supreme courts of justice have no legal basis here. They are the loony courts where people with ridiculous claims that no one else is prepared to listen to go for media coverage. It has no power to detain or fine people in Britain.
Europe has helped the world more than anyone else. It was us that spread civilization from Alaska to Patagonia, through Africa, Oceania and most of Asia. We've developed territories, and given them their independence under a democratic governments (what some of them have done latter on it's not our fault). No matter how much money the US gives, it won't never be comparable to what we've done (and I highly doubt the US gave money to the Europe because you were generous rather than interested in having a strong Europe to eventually fight against the USSR)
Helped or exploited? I'm thinking its the latter. It is your fault what came later if you had done a better job preparing your colonies to be nation states the 3rd world would not be in the mess it is now.
There were other comparible cultures to yours in the world. Many of your economic "discoveries" were borrowed from the Chinese paper money gun powder etc. The Arabs had to re-introduce you to your own ancient classics. I can't ride Western Civilization too hard though after all I am a part of it. Northern Europe did create an atmosphere that was conductive to economic and technological development. We took it one step further by limiting government interference in the economy its amazing what a market economy does when it is allowed to run of its own accord.
As far as keeping all of you from becoming Communists yeah your probably right about that we have a soft spot in our heart for spreading freedom. Its a good thing too if the Soviets was so wonderful their economy wouldn't have imploded, and maybe they could have avoided the bread lines a bit more. So either way you look at it that moved improved your future. I know getting you guys to admit it though is going to be impossible much less be greatful.
Its of benefit to YOU. You would like us to go on being ignorant until we are completly broke wouldn't you?
And how is it of benefit to ME, exactly? I would like nothing more than for the United States of America to stand strong, proud and free; to once again become the world's shining light of freedom and democracy. Call me a romantic, but I do believe that there is still a place in this world for a powerful nation which conducts itself with honor and integrity, one which operates according to high ideals rather than base interests. It is a path which the USA has strayed from, and one which I'm confident it will one day return to. And believe me, if there will ever be a war in which the sovereignty of the USA is threatened, I would gladly go to war and die in its defense.
"Speaking haygywaygy or some other gibberish with your mum doesn't make you foreign." -baff
Originally posted by baff I seem to remember the steel workers all protesting in America too. Did you find them cowardly? Frances labour laws and even Germany's don't bother since they don't affect me. In the Early 80's the government took on the Unions here. The country stopped. France is a revolution culture, Britain is not. If the government messes them around, they risk having their heads cut off. French people don't take the same level of interference from their government as we Brits do. I'm always a little bit envious when after their rioting, they win conscessions, and here in England when we try it, we just lose without much of a fight.
To a degree yeah they were afraid to face the challenge of dealing with a free market without their security blanket. The difference in this case is that not every single worker in the United States started a riot just a small segment. Perhaps coward was a bad word perhaps free loader would be a more accurate description. The U.S. Auto industry is going through this as we speak. Apparently other countries are able to hire workers to put bolts into cars for less than $35 an hour(this is more than most educated people make in an hour aren't Unions grand?).
The leaders of France aren't stupid. The reason why they tried to make it so that the young people could be fired or layed off was the current polices are killing their economy. Yeah its great that no one can loose their jobs but it really sucks when many more people loose their jobs because the company went under paying for people it no longer needed or could no longer afford thanks to changing market conditions. What was the name of the French appliance company this happened too my memory isn't perfect but it started with an M(an example for those that feel proof is needed). The entire company went under because the government wouldn't let it fire workers it could no longer afford to pay. In the end everyone lost their job.
I guess it really doesn't matter since they will take money from the people working and give it to those that don't forever. To me that is not really fair nor does it inspire people to want to work. Gee I can work till September for the government before I actually start making money for me or I can sit on my butt and collect unemployment forever which is funded by the people actually working.
One of Dinivan's insults was that the unemployment system in the United States is limited. There is a reason for that. If it lasted forever what would be the incentive of working? The unemployment rate here is currentley 4.7% it is not that hard to find a job if it takes more than six months you are doing something wrong, or you are one of the few with a very narrow and unqiue skill set that is well paid. Usually the higher paying the job you are trying to get the longer it takes to find one; however you can get a job here in a day or two it may not be the greatest highest paying job but it will be a job. Many people won't accept those jobs though so it takes them time to find a high paying one again. Its just like the housing market cheap houses sell quicker because more people are looking for them exspensive houses take longer because less people can afford them.
Its of benefit to YOU. You would like us to go on being ignorant until we are completly broke wouldn't you?
And how is it of benefit to ME, exactly? I would like nothing more than for the United States of America to stand strong, proud and free; to once again become the world's shining light of freedom and democracy. Call me a romantic, but I do believe that there is still a place in this world for a powerful nation which conducts itself with honor and integrity, one which operates according to high ideals rather than base interests. It is a path which the USA has strayed from, and one which I'm confident it will one day return to. And believe me, if there will ever be a war in which the sovereignty of the USA is threatened, I would gladly go to war and die in its defense.
True if our economy does collaspe it would drag the rest of the world with it because we owe everyone so much money. If your so brilliant at economics then tell me why a $750 billion dollar a year trade deficit on a 12 trillion dollar economy is not bad. Then tell me why its not bad the the government has to borrow 800 billion a year to keep things going, and owes foreigners around 9 trillion dollars. In 1945 this country made everything for itself how has funding other nations to undercut our own products been of benefit to us? Please show me this if I am so ignorant. So we get more stuff cheaper. Thats great but now some of us have lost our jobs or have had to take lesser paying jobs because some people buy cheap foreign junk. That was just the begining its to the point now that we hardly make anything for ourselves anymore except debt. How is this of benefit to us? Yeah we have these great German Cars that were better than ours and we have these wonderful Japanese Tvs that are better thans ours were (we no longer make any Tvs), but they are not going to keep accepting dollars unless I make something they want to get some back and that is just not happening.
As far as America and its current path I would like nothing better myself do you think I enjoy seeing our politicians squandering away our legacy?
I would love to let the Muslims blow each other to bits but as long as we are stuck on their oil we have to interfere in their politics to keep it flowing, or our economy collaspeses along with yours.
Originally posted by BigDogofBria Civil and constructive? Of course, since I'm a white american I have to be civil and constructive. God forbid I display any animosity towards another country or race. Everyone is free to trash the US as much as they want. The OP basically calls us all bums, using statistics from our own newspapers, and I'm just supposed to politely accept it. While women are stoned in the streets in Saudi Arabia for being accused adulterers. I wouldn't have a college degree today if it wasn't for the aid of the federal government, but children in North Korea have to read by the lights on Kim Jong Il's statues in order to study, because those are the only lights on in the city. Do you have any idea how many Billions and Billions of dollars the United States spends on Foreign Aid each year. Egypt recieves 8 billion dollars from us every year, just for being Egypt, and they protest us every chance they get. And that's just one country. Think about all the american innovations that make your lives better. The light bulb. The fiber optic switch. The telephone. The radio. Rocket Fuel. Jazz music. Over the last one hundered and fifty years we've tried to drag this planet out of the dark ages and all I hear is what horrible degenerates we are. We fought and killed eachother in the nineteenth century over the rights of Africans in Bondage. [...]
Let me tell you something about americans. My grandfather was a ranger. From 1940 to 1944 he served his country fighting in Africa and Europe. Four years of his twenties. And when it was done he came back home, raised four children, then spent the rest of his life drinking in dark rooms with undiagnosed post-traumatic stress disorder. Then he died without a penny to his name at the age of 64. I'm wasting my breath. People are fools. Most of them know nothing about what self sacrifice is. We owe you nothing. If it was up to me I'd let the rest of the world solve it's own problems. Fortunately for you, it isn't.
Don't get confused, I don't want to insult the US nor I want it to disappear, it's one of our creations, a rebel colony, and so it's half european and you help Europe in its pursue to spread the western civilization across the globe. Oh, and of course I do think about american innovations, but do you think about two european "innovations" that reshaped the humankind forever? they are called agricultural and industrial revolutions, but don't worry, you owe nothing to us for them.
Having said that, could you answer me why did you invade Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia if the second is that bad and horrible country? don't you understand that the world knows you don't want to help other countries but impose your interests? you did that in Iraq and in Afghanistan using the 11-S attacks as a pretext (which btw were really horrible terrorist attacks, I fully remember that day and I remember it not only as an attack to the US but an attack to the west), you invaded it saying you were liberating a country from the opression of a cruel dictatorship while at the same time you are funding one of its neighbours, Pakistan. Europeans are not asking you to remain quiet, we only ask you to act under the UN rules, not only when invading a country, but also we ask you to be civilized and end with that base of Guantanamo, we ask you to tell the truth and stop with that hypocrisy of being friends of those dictatorships that are friendly with you etc... that's why more and more voices in Europe are asking for the EU to act as a counterweight to a country which in our opinion is threatening to the world peace. Sometimes Europe acts like an hypocrite, for exampe by signing contracts with dictators, but at least we do not lie about our intentions and more important, we never invade a country and impose our will over its people.
True if our economy does collaspe it would drag the rest of the world with it because we owe everyone so much money. If your so brilliant at economics then tell me why a $750 billion dollar a year trade deficit on a 12 trillion dollar economy is not bad. Then tell me why its not bad the the government has to borrow 800 billion a year to keep things going, and owes foreigners around 9 trillion dollars. In 1945 this country made everything for itself how has funding other nations to undercut our own products been of benefit to us? Please show me this if I am so ignorant. So we get more stuff cheaper. Thats great but now some of us have lost our jobs or have had to take lesser paying jobs because some people buy cheap foreign junk. That was just the begining its to the point now that we hardly make anything for ourselves anymore except debt. How is this of benefit to us? Yeah we have these great German Cars that were better than ours and we have these wonderful Japanese Tvs that are better thans ours were (we no longer make any Tvs), but they are not going to keep accepting dollars unless I make something they want to get some back and that is just not happening.
As far as America and its current path I would like nothing better myself do you think I enjoy seeing our politicians squandering away our legacy?
I would love to let the Muslims blow each other to bits but as long as we are stuck on their oil we have to interfere in their politics to keep it flowing, or our economy collaspeses along with yours.
I refuse to waste my time addressing this mess of words and phrases. Learn to form a position and stick to it, I don't debate with people who are unable to organize their own thoughts.
"Speaking haygywaygy or some other gibberish with your mum doesn't make you foreign." -baff
Originally posted by baff Right now, there is nothing the world wants more than for you to let it solve it's own problems. There doesn't seem to be very much limit to the damage one man can do in 8 years given the kid of power America has to wield. How much of your foreign aid is paid in military hardware? I see plenty of food bags with USA written on them. More than anyone elses. Your people's contribution is not lost on me.
Radio and the lightbulb were invented by the British, Germany had Rockets first. (Other than the Chinese kind).
We fought and killed eachother in the nineteenth century over the rights of Africans in Bondage.
It took you long enough. We'd been fighting you over it for years.
Personally I would love to let the world go about its business as long as it would be nice enough to leave us the hell alone.
Not to be a total pain, but wasn't radio invented by Guglielmo Marconi an Italian?
As far as the lightbulb yeah you guys got there first but we invented one a few years later without knowledge of yours. I think later on down the line the american and british companies that were founded by the inventors merged into the Edison and Swan United Electric Company.
I refuse to waste my time addressing this mess of words and phrases. Learn to form a position and stick to it, I don't debate with people who are unable to organize their own thoughts.
Boy aren't we just the arrogant ass. I think you just took the easy way out if you truly knew anything about economics you would be able to reply to at least the first part. I have seen you lay out insults that you know economics better than I know economics but I have yet to see you actually demonstrate knowledge of economics. Therefore I must conclude that you are a liar. If not then prove it answer my question.
Originally posted by Aetius73 Originally posted by Theodoryk
I refuse to waste my time addressing this mess of words and phrases. Learn to form a position and stick to it, I don't debate with people who are unable to organize their own thoughts.
Boy aren't we just the arrogant ass. I think you just took the easy way out if you truly knew anything about economics you would be able to reply to at least the first part. I'd rather be an arrogant ass than an ignorant ass. I'm not obligated to make sense of your chaotic ramblings. State your position and I'll be happy to address it.
"Speaking haygywaygy or some other gibberish with your mum doesn't make you foreign." -baff
Originally posted by Aetius73 Helped or exploited? I'm thinking its the latter. It is your fault what came later if you had done a better job preparing your colonies to be nation states the 3rd world would not be in the mess it is now.
Exploited of course, except for Africa, there we spent more money investing in the continent than what we got in return (there's not a lot of data about the profits we got there, but numbers show the UK lost money so imagine if you add all the other colonial powers), if we had ruled them for more time they would be quite civilized today. Anyway, the fact that initially we wanted to exploit the world doesn't change the final result.
I'd rather be an arrogant ass than an ignorant ass. I'm not obligated to make sense of your chaotic ramblings. State your position and I'll be happy to address it.
Ok let me get rid of the supporting details and simplfy the question so that you can understand it.
"If your so brilliant at economics then tell me why a $750 billion dollar a year trade deficit on a 12 trillion dollar economy is not bad?"
"In 1945 this country made everything for itself how has funding other nations to undercut our own products been of benefit to us?"
There ya go I miss punctuated one of the sentences it should have had a question mark instead of a period; however the second sentence was clearly a question complete with the question mark how was it unintelliglble? Seems more like an excuse than an answer but here ya go enlighten me oh brilliant one.
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Its not our soldiers that are the cowards its the left leaning part of our government that wants to cut and run all the time.
I was thinking of the young French that had a country wide riot because the government was gonna take away their protection from being fired or laid off. We have a saying here the greater the risk the greater the reward. Yeah they might have been fired, but then they might have gotten a job that pays more too.
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No one who was offered a vote approved it. No one.
Ireland, when offered a vote rejected it, but was made to vote again. My country wasn't offered the vote at all, because they new they couldn't win it. If only 1 country refuses, it isn't ratified.
They had a vote, and you don't like the results, so you choose to ignore them. Luckily, our Army is MUCH bigger than yours, so there isn't much you can do about it is there?
War is the only way you will unite the EU, the only way it has ever been united before and it's the same way all the other federations managed to unite. The only problem is Britain and France are nuclear powers, so you can't fight them at all. And they are both utterly unable to agree with eachother about anything. Their national intrests are too conficted.
EU does not supercede national law, they are not automatically adopted in my country or even yours. You will notice that many EU directives are not made law in any number of countries. (Example: Digital Rights Copywright Laws). You will also note that EU fines go unpaid. If that country is France, Germany or Italy, you can whistle for the money, as we have seen over monetary Union. The EU doesn't have the authority to fine people. When push came to shove all it had was bark and no bite.
Mandelson may speak for the EU council about trade, but he doesn't speak for the individual nations. They still speak for themselves.
Certain diplomatic agreements are legally binding. These are called Treaties. A country signed up to a treaty must ratify it or risk losing any benefits offered by it. However the countries are still sovergein nations and may break or withdraw from any treaty they wish at any time. National Law supercedes international treaties. The American and Russian States do not have that privilage. For them to do so is to trigger a civil war automatically.
No nation will ever lose control of it's own troops, not to Nato and not to the EU. Nice fantasy. All that will happen is that no one will deploy under an EU mandate. They will still operate together in all the same conflicts, but under the guise of NATO or the "Coalition of the Willling" or some other name invented for the specific campaign. The country who provides the largest contingent of troops will take overall control of any operation, business as usual. No one in the EU will ever have a say, until the EU raises it's own EU army and contributes the largest force to an operation.
Nice EU fantasy you have there. Shame it doesn't mirror reality. Or rather, a massive releif as that would undoubtably trigger WW3. We don't want a federal Europe. Too many of our family members have died to prevent it. It will never be so. If you try and force it, you will die.
Look, you are from the UK, right?
Point 1: get more informed. Spain (44 million inhabitants) approved the constitution by referendum.
Point 2: call it however you want, but if the EU approves a regulation or a directive, each member state has to apply it. Regulations are automatically applied, directives don't, but as I said if you don't apply them you'll be fined, and yes, everyone has to pay the fines without exception. Treaties are a different way to apply the legislation, but they are not commonly used, normaly they are used for example when giving the EU more competence over new policies.
Point 3: Mandelson speaks for the EU, and as you know the EU manages the trade policies, so Mandelson speaks for everyone. Neither the UK or France could go against the EU in this field.
Point 4: you don't want a federal Europe. I don't like to generalize, but it's true that most of british are euroskeptics. Poor british, don't you realize that if you continue to boycott the EU sooner or later you won't be welcome here? (and it's a shame, I really love GB!), and if you think you can survive isolated from the rest of the continent you are very ignorant (don't give me the example of Norway or Switzerland, they are not in the EU but they share many policies with us and even contribute to the EU, if you get out of here you won't be treated that well).
I seem to remember the steel workers all protesting in America too. Did you find them cowardly?
Frances labour laws and even Germany's don't bother since they don't affect me. In the Early 80's the government took on the Unions here. The country stopped.
France is a revolution culture, Britain is not. If the government messes them around, they risk having their heads cut off. French people don't take the same level of interference from their government as we Brits do. I'm always a little bit envious when after their rioting, they win conscessions, and here in England when we try it, we just lose without much of a fight.
They lost 20 million in the entire war, of which mostly civilians. But then again what do you expect from someone who is given a rifle with 4 bullets in it?
Those were militias though. The actual Russian army was alot better equipped, trained and motivated.
Point 1: get more informed. Spain (44 million inhabitants) approved the constitution by referendum.
Point 2: call it however you want, but if the EU approves a regulation or a directive, each member state has to apply it. Regulations are automatically applied, directives don't, but as I said if you don't apply them you'll be fined, and yes, everyone has to pay the fines without exception. Treaties are a different way to apply the legislation, but they are not commonly used, normaly they are used for example when giving the EU more competence over new policies.
Point 3: Mandelson speaks for the EU, and as you know the EU manages the trade policies, so Mandelson speaks for everyone. Neither the UK or France could go against the EU in this field.
Point 4: you don't want a federal Europe. I don't like to generalize, but it's true that most of british are euroskeptics. Poor british, don't you realize that if you continue to boycott the EU sooner or later you won't be welcome here? (and it's a shame, I really love GB!), and if you think you can survive isolated from the rest of the continent you are very ignorant (don't give me the example of Norway or Switzerland, they are not in the EU but they share many policies with us and even contribute to the EU, if you get out of here you won't be treated that well).
I can't speak for Spain it seems, but the EU doesn't make any regulations here. Only directives.
Mandelson Speaks for the EU, but not for all the countries that contribute to it. He speaks for the EU institution only. We are all quite happy to speak for ourselves still. Rather like the UN. The EU institution is a centre for trade negotiation and agreement. A common forum where the business of international trade can be completed faster.
Mandelsons job is a joke. He's irrelevent. He got sacked from government here twice for corruption. He's out to pasture somewhere he can't affect anything in an invented job created by his friends.
France and The U.K. can go against the EU in any field. They frequently do.
We are willing to share many policies with you and contribute to the EU, but not to be regulated by you. We don't boycott the EU, we are one of the largest contributers to it. When you start as much as us, you will have as much say in it's running. And if you were thinking of trying to isolate us, you might want to remember what happened every other time you have tried it.
Civil and constructive? Of course, since I'm a white american I have to be civil and constructive. God forbid I display any animosity towards another country or race. Everyone is free to trash the US as much as they want. The OP basically calls us all bums, using statistics from our own newspapers, and I'm just supposed to politely accept it. While women are stoned in the streets in Saudi Arabia for being accused adulterers. I wouldn't have a college degree today if it wasn't for the aid of the federal government, but children in North Korea have to read by the lights on Kim Jong Il's statues in order to study, because those are the only lights on in the city. Do you have any idea how many Billions and Billions of dollars the United States spends on Foreign Aid each year. Egypt recieves 8 billion dollars from us every year, just for being Egypt, and they protest us every chance they get. And that's just one country. Think about all the american innovations that make your lives better. The light bulb. The fiber optic switch. The telephone. The radio. Rocket Fuel. Jazz music. Over the last one hundered and fifty years we've tried to drag this planet out of the dark ages and all I hear is what horrible degenerates we are. We fought and killed eachother in the nineteenth century over the rights of Africans in Bondage.
I hear all this criticizm of George Bush. My vote went to another canidate. I won't defend him, but I will defend the system that put him there. The same system that will remove him from office in two years. You see in America we change our leadership often so if by some mischance the wrong man gets in there is only a limited amount of damage that he can do.
Let me tell you something about americans. My grandfather was a ranger. From 1940 to 1944 he served his country fighting in Africa and Europe. Four years of his twenties. And when it was done he came back home, raised four children, then spent the rest of his life drinking in dark rooms with undiagnosed post-traumatic stress disorder. Then he died without a penny to his name at the age of 64. I'm wasting my breath. People are fools. Most of them know nothing about what self sacrifice is.
We owe you nothing. If it was up to me I'd let the rest of the world solve it's own problems. Fortunately for you, it isn't.
"Speaking haygywaygy or some other gibberish with your mum doesn't make you foreign."
-baff
If you don't know the answer to this question, then I'm afraid I must say that you truly lack fundamental knowledge regarding global economics and international politics.
Your thinking in terms of an integrated world economy. In 1945 the United States was a self contained economy that produced everything we needed. By rebuilding these countries being idiots about tariffs we allowed them into our markets. By undercutting local industry here it began a cycle of Americans loosing millions of jobs because of cheap foreigh imports. This would be fine if the rest of the world reciprocated, but unlike us they are not generous at all with their tariffs thus our goods do not compete on an even playing field. The result is our trade imbalance which is slowly sucking us dry. How is this of benefit to us? Its of benefit to YOU. You would like us to go on being ignorant until we are completly broke wouldn't you?
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Right now, there is nothing the world wants more than for you to let it solve it's own problems. There doesn't seem to be very much limit to the damage one man can do in 8 years given the kid of power America has to wield.
How much of your foreign aid is paid in military hardware?
I see plenty of food bags with USA written on them. More than anyone elses. Your people's contribution is not lost on me.
Radio and the lightbulb were invented by the British, Germany had Rockets first. (Other than the Chinese kind).
similarly, Kofe Annan doesn't speak for the whole world when he talks, he speaks for the UN institution. He is not the president of the world.
Should the EU trade comission fail to get a deal in Britains favour, it can always opt out. Mandelson maybe authorised to speak for the EU, but the EU is not authorised to speak for Britain. It'a great enviroment to make international trade agreements and we have our diplomats and trade commisioners employed for that job. I hang out with a few of them. They do a lot of work around the EU and other Embassies.
Plenty of regulations in the U.K. man, all of them voted on by parliament.
What are these Regulations of which you speak then? Most likely we opted out of those.
We don't recognise any power higher than God and Queens. Rulings made at the European supreme courts of justice have no legal basis here. They are the loony courts where people with ridiculous claims that no one else is prepared to listen to go for media coverage. It has no power to detain or fine people in Britain.
We ratify most of the directives mind.
Helped or exploited? I'm thinking its the latter. It is your fault what came later if you had done a better job preparing your colonies to be nation states the 3rd world would not be in the mess it is now.
There were other comparible cultures to yours in the world. Many of your economic "discoveries" were borrowed from the Chinese paper money gun powder etc. The Arabs had to re-introduce you to your own ancient classics. I can't ride Western Civilization too hard though after all I am a part of it. Northern Europe did create an atmosphere that was conductive to economic and technological development. We took it one step further by limiting government interference in the economy its amazing what a market economy does when it is allowed to run of its own accord.
As far as keeping all of you from becoming Communists yeah your probably right about that we have a soft spot in our heart for spreading freedom. Its a good thing too if the Soviets was so wonderful their economy wouldn't have imploded, and maybe they could have avoided the bread lines a bit more. So either way you look at it that moved improved your future. I know getting you guys to admit it though is going to be impossible much less be greatful.
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And how is it of benefit to ME, exactly? I would like nothing more than for the United States of America to stand strong, proud and free; to once again become the world's shining light of freedom and democracy. Call me a romantic, but I do believe that there is still a place in this world for a powerful nation which conducts itself with honor and integrity, one which operates according to high ideals rather than base interests. It is a path which the USA has strayed from, and one which I'm confident it will one day return to. And believe me, if there will ever be a war in which the sovereignty of the USA is threatened, I would gladly go to war and die in its defense.
"Speaking haygywaygy or some other gibberish with your mum doesn't make you foreign."
-baff
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And how is it of benefit to ME, exactly? I would like nothing more than for the United States of America to stand strong, proud and free; to once again become the world's shining light of freedom and democracy. Call me a romantic, but I do believe that there is still a place in this world for a powerful nation which conducts itself with honor and integrity, one which operates according to high ideals rather than base interests. It is a path which the USA has strayed from, and one which I'm confident it will one day return to. And believe me, if there will ever be a war in which the sovereignty of the USA is threatened, I would gladly go to war and die in its defense.
True if our economy does collaspe it would drag the rest of the world with it because we owe everyone so much money. If your so brilliant at economics then tell me why a $750 billion dollar a year trade deficit on a 12 trillion dollar economy is not bad. Then tell me why its not bad the the government has to borrow 800 billion a year to keep things going, and owes foreigners around 9 trillion dollars. In 1945 this country made everything for itself how has funding other nations to undercut our own products been of benefit to us? Please show me this if I am so ignorant. So we get more stuff cheaper. Thats great but now some of us have lost our jobs or have had to take lesser paying jobs because some people buy cheap foreign junk. That was just the begining its to the point now that we hardly make anything for ourselves anymore except debt. How is this of benefit to us? Yeah we have these great German Cars that were better than ours and we have these wonderful Japanese Tvs that are better thans ours were (we no longer make any Tvs), but they are not going to keep accepting dollars unless I make something they want to get some back and that is just not happening.
As far as America and its current path I would like nothing better myself do you think I enjoy seeing our politicians squandering away our legacy?
I would love to let the Muslims blow each other to bits but as long as we are stuck on their oil we have to interfere in their politics to keep it flowing, or our economy collaspeses along with yours.
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Having said that, could you answer me why did you invade Iraq instead
of Saudi Arabia if the second is that bad and horrible country? don't you understand that the world knows you don't want to help other countries but impose your interests? you did that in Iraq and in Afghanistan using the 11-S attacks as a pretext (which btw were really horrible terrorist attacks, I fully remember that day and I remember it not only as an attack to the US but an attack to the west), you invaded it saying you were liberating a country from the opression of a cruel dictatorship while at the same time you are funding one of its neighbours, Pakistan. Europeans are not asking you to remain quiet, we only ask you to act under the UN rules, not only when invading a country, but also we ask you to be civilized and end with that base of Guantanamo, we ask you to tell the truth and stop with that hypocrisy of being friends of those dictatorships that are friendly with you etc... that's why more and more voices in Europe are asking for the EU to act as a counterweight to a country which in our opinion is threatening to the world peace. Sometimes Europe acts like an hypocrite, for exampe by signing contracts with dictators, but at least we do not lie about our intentions and more important, we never invade a country and impose our will over its people.
I refuse to waste my time addressing this mess of words and phrases. Learn to form a position and stick to it, I don't debate with people who are unable to organize their own thoughts.
"Speaking haygywaygy or some other gibberish with your mum doesn't make you foreign."
-baff
Personally I would love to let the world go about its business as long as it would be nice enough to leave us the hell alone.
Not to be a total pain, but wasn't radio invented by Guglielmo Marconi an Italian?
As far as the lightbulb yeah you guys got there first but we invented one a few years later without knowledge of yours. I think later on down the line the american and british companies that were founded by the inventors merged into the Edison and Swan United Electric Company.
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I refuse to waste my time addressing this mess of words and phrases. Learn to form a position and stick to it, I don't debate with people who are unable to organize their own thoughts.
Boy aren't we just the arrogant ass. I think you just took the easy way out if you truly knew anything about economics you would be able to reply to at least the first part. I have seen you lay out insults that you know economics better than I know economics but I have yet to see you actually demonstrate knowledge of economics. Therefore I must conclude that you are a liar. If not then prove it answer my question.
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I refuse to waste my time addressing this mess of words and phrases. Learn to form a position and stick to it, I don't debate with people who are unable to organize their own thoughts.
Boy aren't we just the arrogant ass. I think you just took the easy way out if you truly knew anything about economics you would be able to reply to at least the first part.
I'd rather be an arrogant ass than an ignorant ass. I'm not obligated to make sense of your chaotic ramblings. State your position and I'll be happy to address it.
"Speaking haygywaygy or some other gibberish with your mum doesn't make you foreign."
-baff
Ok let me get rid of the supporting details and simplfy the question so that you can understand it.
"If your so brilliant at economics then tell me why a $750 billion dollar a year trade deficit on a 12 trillion dollar economy is not bad?"
"In 1945 this country made everything for itself how has funding other nations to undercut our own products been of benefit to us?"
There ya go I miss punctuated one of the sentences it should have had a question mark instead of a period; however the second sentence was clearly a question complete with the question mark how was it unintelliglble? Seems more like an excuse than an answer but here ya go enlighten me oh brilliant one.
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