The rating of a game doesn't depend on how many people play, it depends on how good it is, such as content etc. It isn't rated as one of the top games anymore because it is getting old. And it isn't one of the best either, really.
Best MMOs - RuneScape and WoW Crappiest MMOs - Hero Online, SWG, DDO MMO's played - RS, WoW, GW, EVE, AO, PlanetSide, Jumpgate, Face of Mankind, MapleStory, SO, Liniege 1 & 2, City of Villains, Flyff, Realm Online, SWG, Seed, Sims Online, City of Heroes.
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Hmm, its not rated best because it aint the best, however, its just rediciolus to read from the "hardcore mmo players" that says "its nothing to do endgame in wow", (im not saying anyone has said that in this topic, but i guess it will come as in any other wow discussion topic) i cant say anything about the PVP, but if its PVE your talking about it just tells me the lack of experience you have with the game... play in a hardcore guild like every other mmo requiers if you want "alot", dont come here and say that you "are done" with WoW and thinks its easy when you have done Molten Core or Blackwing Lair, join a hardcore guild, clear the real instances, then you can try to come and say that its little content... for a hadcore guild nowdays they can barley clear all the instances in one "reset". If you want to play casual, dont play mmo's imo, you will always get disapointed in the end. Another thing that bothers me is that "oldschool mmo players" always whine on that wow is too easy, yeah, its easy, but like any other mmo there is very huge diference between a good and a bad player. Only reason im playing WoW it is because of the endgame, and just try to say it does not require strategy and skill, because i have played AO, SWG and watched EQ when friends are playing, and the hardest bosses in those games just looks rediciolus... zerg ftw?
Oh well got abit off-topic here but im just geting tierd of the "old skewl mmo hardcore pro uber" players that just dont know shit about the endgame of wow. And im not saying its the best mmo, it misses alot of important aspects to be rated on top, imo that is.
There are plenty of end game things to do in WoW. I have played a lot of MMORPG's. I am by no means a "new player getting my feet wet."
FFXI, RF Online, Lineage, Lineage II, SWG, Mu Online, Eve Online, are just a few and WoW has one thing better then the rest. A Company who actually cares. I played FFXI for almost 3 years. Its an amazing game but SE drove it into the ground.
So I turned to WoW, and yes I hated it at first and quit, but once I really got into the game I really really like it now. Yes I have an end game raiding guild, and yes we're working on ZG,AQ20,MC,Onyxia so we stay busy. After that its onto Blackwing Lair, Naxxaramas, and whatever the first expansion has to offer. New races coming out, a new PvP league being put into place, there is so much that is going on with WoW that if you ignore actually giving the end game an honest effort(if thats your thing) then you're missing a truly awsome game.
Originally posted by B1ight if you ignore actually giving the end game an honest effort (if thats your thing) then you're missing a truly awsome game.
Have to agree with that though, the leveling part of WoW was fun for a few months and then it got old but the raid endgame was the best I have seen. I quit recently after a year and a half of playing it when my guild finally started to get stuck halfway through Naxxramas. But I might go back after the expansion comes out.
Originally posted by DarthNeo I dont play WOW...I have not played anything since SWG and am about to start playign Guild Wars, but how is WOW not on this sites list of Highest Rated MMO's if sooooooooooooo many people play it?
For the same reason that McDonalds isn't rated as the worlds finest restaurant.
The fact of the matter is, like any forum, this one is quite biased. I enjoy WoW emmensely, and I am entitled to that opinion just as the people here are entitled to theirs. It used to really piss me off that WoW is not on the top home page rankings on MMORPG.COM, for many reasons. I realized though that the list is not the ultimate say in MMOs by any means, and most that share my opinions are either playing or on a forum that discusses WoW in a more positive light. If I look at it any other way my head starts to hurt from thinking of the same opinions repeated about how bad WoW is here.
Originally posted by Ropho WOW took the main elements of any MMO and made them easy, so people feel acomplished anytime they play. You SEE your experience bar move If you craft orange , your skill RAISES Money is easy to come by, so its EASY to own the best items, Epic mounts and certain items Quests are very STRAIGHTFORWARD and more
All in all it appeals to the masses, which had never had a taste of an MMO before. But as they are becomming more seasoned they are seeing that WOW is a shallow game. It's not a bad game, its just not as good as it could have been.
Exactly.
WoW is popular because its so easy to get ahead. You never feel like you're struggling at any point, you're always coasting.
It's an ego and morale booster, it feels great to play.
Originally posted by meakers The fact of the matter is, like any forum, this one is quite biased. I enjoy WoW emmensely, and I am entitled to that opinion just as the people here are entitled to theirs. It used to really piss me off that WoW is not on the top home page rankings on MMORPG.COM, for many reasons. I realized though that the list is not the ultimate say in MMOs by any means, and most that share my opinions are either playing or on a forum that discusses WoW in a more positive light. If I look at it any other way my head starts to hurt from thinking of the same opinions repeated about how bad WoW is here.
Eve is nowhere near as fun and easy as WoW, but its deep and open.
WoW is a game you play for months and have tons of fun.
Eve is a virtual world that you inhabit for your whole life.
WoW is Wendies. Spicy chicken sandwich + chili mmmmm taste great
Eve is a 4 star restaurant where they give you a small plate of marvelous food. It doesnt really satisfy your hunger, but the food is really good and not loaded with artificial schit like Wendies.
They really complement each other in alot of ways. Sometimes you eat Wendies, sometimes you eat at a restaurant, most of the time you eat at home.
Maybe that ranking thing is a bit harsh, it should really be ahead of CoH/CoV. And DAoC, while I agree should perhaps be ahead of WoW has aged now so much so that old games like UO, AC and EQ have all vanished form that chart and DAoC in time will perhaps too. I don't rate WoW as all that but I am just saying I think it could be a bit harsh not actually being on the list when it is along with EQ2, Guild Wars, Saga of Ryzom, EvE online the most popular mmos of the moment.
Simply because this site is more about flaming and dissing games then it is to actualy rate game's in a logical way. So anyway, 7 million people rather enjoy playing the game then arguing about what game is good/not good.
This is a site for people who specialize in MMORPGs primarily. This means that the average person on this site has experience with multiple games in the genre. Many o the people chanting WoW praises do so having not played many other games in the genre, while anyone who has played a lot of the games listed here clearly understands how easy and shallow the game really is compared to other games in the genre. Amung the experts who know games in this genre, it is easy to see why thew game has a lower rating which it deserves, as compared to someone whose first MMO is WoW thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread while being ignorant to what else is out there.
Originally posted by DarthNeo I dont play WOW...I have not played anything since SWG and am about to start playign Guild Wars, but how is WOW not on this sites list of Highest Rated MMO's if sooooooooooooo many people play it?
If I played WoW, didn't like it, and felt like being a prick; I'd score the game a 1.0 across the board just to spite it. I'd imagine many share that same thought process and that explains a portion of why WoW isn't in the top-rated list.
Originally posted by IdesofMarch Originally posted by DarthNeo I dont play WOW...I have not played anything since SWG and am about to start playign Guild Wars, but how is WOW not on this sites list of Highest Rated MMO's if sooooooooooooo many people play it?
If I played WoW, didn't like it, and felt like being a prick; I'd score the game a 1.0 across the board just to spite it. I'd imagine many share that same thought process and that explains a portion of why WoW isn't in the top-rated list.
Well your 1.0 accross the board would get dropped right off the scoring, as would a 10.0 across the board, and rightly so. A games scores are made up of the average of all of the ratings players have given it. Over time a straight 1 rating and a straight 10 rating have virtually no effect on a games score.
So no, that has absolutely no effect on WoW's score. If you actually look at the ratings they get low marks in performance/lag and customer service and that brings the score down significantly. Those scores are valid and well deserved IMO.
So no, that has absolutely no effect on WoW's score. If you actually look at the ratings they get low marks in performance/lag and customer service and that brings the score down significantly. Those scores are valid and well deserved IMO.
It does. If it wasn't for those straight 1's the balance between those scores and all 10's would completely be destroyed and the rating would shoot up higher then it currently is. The best example of this balance is the hype-meter for upcoming games. People will vote 10 for the games they are behind and score a 1 for the games on the top-hyped list so they get knocked down.
So though it may not have a huge direct effect, those scores do create a balance that can fluctuate back and forth slightly.
It has been given these ratings for a reason. lets start with the fact that every mmorpg has downpoints. sure WoW might not give you as much freedom as EVE or Ryzom, but it really makes up for that with the PVE content. not to mention there is plenty of content. EVE and Ryzom might give more freedom, but the PVE, to say it boldly, downright sucks. then, as a reviewer, you have to make a decision what is more important. PVE gameplay (which makes up for a large portion of every mmorpg) or Freedom that is not that great if you take a closer look at it.
reviewers know what the heck they are talking about. same for the award givers. the 7 million subscriber base proves that those reviewers were right. sure you might enjoy game A more then WoW, or maybe you prefer game B, but that is all opinion. reviewers have to look at the quality parts of the game.
The PVE content in WoW is bland. They use 3 or 4 different quest types over and over and just change the mobs and reward, that's not good content IMO. I can't speak for the PVE in Ryzom as I've never played the game, but yes the PVE in EVE is weak, but it is improving over time and it's not the focus of the game anyways, so it's really not worth focusing on that much because the game is very PVP-centric.
TBH Gameloading, you put far too much stock in what reviewers say, they are just people with opinions, many of them DON'T know wth they are talking about. 9 times out of 10 they are just journalists with absolutely no experience developing games. Like I said, just people with opinions. The only people that I feel have a valid view of what is good game design and what is not is other developers, for everyone else it's just a layman's opinion.
For a good example of a reviewer who doesn't know wtf he's talking about, Roger Ebert actually thought the Star Wars Prequels were good movies when in reality they're just a special effects showcase with bad acting and weak dialogue.
Originally posted by B1ight FFXI, RF Online, Lineage, Lineage II, SWG, Mu Online, Eve Online, are just a few and WoW has one thing better then the rest. A Company who actually cares. I played FFXI for almost 3 years. Its an amazing game but SE drove it into the ground.
If you really think Vivendi “cares” more the Sony, or that Sony cares more then Vivendi it’s no wonder you wouldn’t recognize the problems with WoW. Companies are not their to care they are there to make money for their shareholders they do this by trying to convince people that they do care without actually spending the money it would cost them to really care.
This is not a bad thing because it’s a behavior that can be manipulated to the public advantage, but only if you make yourself part with the notion that these companies care about anything more then the money you give them.
Originally posted by Souldrainer Because a lot of us have gotten to 60, and feel that although 1-59 game is good, the suck that is 60 and the lack of decent PVP are enough to bring a good game down.
Here, here! lol It's so true it hurts. I had so much fun 1-59, I still say it was one of the most complete feeling MMOs I've ever played in that respect. I raided a lot, got my teir 1 set and my guild was first on our server for almost all MC encounters. But that all was such weak content, that I ended up with 3 level 60 characters (and a 40 and a couple 20s). "PvP" grind? Did that too, got the big mace of doom for my main. Got the black dagger for my rogue alt...
If you really are honest and look at the ratings, it is doing really well. I mean: 8.8 graphics?! Are you kidding me?! 8.8 10 years ago, sure...freaking 1-2 now. Performance/Lag 7.9?! huh? Did these people play on heavy or full servers? Clunky kid graphics and good systems lag so bad they fall into a pit in IF? Little character customization and that is the lag? 7.9 nothing. Community 7.3? lol The WoW community is the worst, most self-destructive/self-hating mmo community I have seen. If I ever see another one like it, I'll probably quit on those grounds alone. Sure there are great guilds and people in the game, but the it's still hard to get past the...the overwhelming crowd attitude. Fun 8.6? I guess I can let that go, since it was such a great game pre-60 and pre-BG. I just the the design evolution has been a downward spiral. I could go on...
Also, the rest of the WoW "community" (i.e. the ones who like raiding or faction grinding) are still playing and probably can't be bothered to come rate it "uber 10" accross the board.
The PVE content in WoW is bland. They use 3 or 4 different quest types over and over and just change the mobs and reward, that's not good content IMO. I can't speak for the PVE in Ryzom as I've never played the game, but yes the PVE in EVE is weak, but it is improving over time and it's not the focus of the game anyways, so it's really not worth focusing on that much because the game is very PVP-centric.
TBH Gameloading, you put far too much stock in what reviewers say, they are just people with opinions, many of them DON'T know wth they are talking about. 9 times out of 10 they are just journalists with absolutely no experience developing games. Like I said, just people with opinions. The only people that I feel have a valid view of what is good game design and what is not is other developers, for everyone else it's just a layman's opinion.
For a good example of a reviewer who doesn't know wtf he's talking about, Roger Ebert actually thought the Star Wars Prequels were good movies when in reality they're just a special effects showcase with bad acting and weak dialogue.
So you're saying you have no valid view of what is good game design and what is not?
Many of us have valid views. They're called opinions. Agree. Disagree. Take em or leave em.
I don't even need to comment on your last paragraph. You have your opinion (which I disagree with) and I have mine. I'll leave it at that instead of telling you that your comments of the movie sound exactly like some negative reviews that I read for Revenge of the Sith.
Originally posted by IdesofMarch If I played WoW, didn't like it, and felt like being a prick; I'd score the game a 1.0 across the board just to spite it. I'd imagine many share that same thought process and that explains a portion of why WoW isn't in the top-rated list.
I don't know about others, but that's not how I've been rating. I'd rather give an honest opinion so people can make educated decisions on games. But, it's like you said, people will rate it 1 and people will rate it 10...so the overall feeling probably still gets accross.
8.1 still isn't a bad rating, it just happens to not be visible on the top 5 list. For the record, I think I rated Eve lower than WoW...it was just the way the numbers of how I felt about the game added up.
Excuses like “WoW players are to busy to come here” and “People give WoW a bad score because it’s popular” don’t wash because there are more WoW players on this site then any other game
Two things to remember, first, most of the regular posters here *have* tried WoW and knows exactly what it’s about. Furthermore they have tried many other games as well and have something to compare it to while the majority of WoW’s ~2 million subscriptions are first time MMO players who lack that broader perspective. (I’m not counting the 5 million Asian players because the subscription model is so different and they have little impact on the rankings of a forum like this)
Second, for over a year after its release WoW was the top ranked game much of that time by a sizable margin. The primary reason it’s dropped is because of the bait and switch tactics it employs. It’s sold as a fast leveling solo friendly MMO and the first 60 levels back that up.
At the time WoW was released there was a large segment of gamers looking for exactly that. The problem is that WoW was co-opted by a group of Hardcore EQ1 players and the end-game was hijacked into becoming a poor imitation of Everquest which was the very thing the people attracted to the initial marketing didn’t want to play.
The people who come here have seen all this and tried WoW and many other games for themselves generally come to a similar conclusion. WoW starts off strong but you run out of things to do. The end game content is a style many of them never wanted and played WoW to avoid and when they find that out they drop their ratings, thus WoW has been on a downward slide in the ratings since about 6 months after it launched.
Bottom line: WoW is a solid, well marketed but rather derivative game. It has a good rating and is jut outside the top 10 but it doesn’t do anything special and the bait and switch marketing turns enough people off to drop it back a few points which is all it takes to end up out of the top 10.
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It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
I think the lack of diversity in the numbers between the various ratings should point out the obvious;
Ratings on mmorpg.com are pointless.
The rating of a game doesn't depend on how many people play, it depends on how good it is, such as content etc. It isn't rated as one of the top games anymore because it is getting old. And it isn't one of the best either, really.
Best MMOs - RuneScape and WoW
Crappiest MMOs - Hero Online, SWG, DDO
MMO's played - RS, WoW, GW, EVE, AO, PlanetSide, Jumpgate, Face of Mankind, MapleStory, SO, Liniege 1 & 2, City of Villains, Flyff, Realm Online, SWG, Seed, Sims Online, City of Heroes.
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Hmm, its not rated best because it aint the best, however, its just rediciolus to read from the "hardcore mmo players" that says "its nothing to do endgame in wow", (im not saying anyone has said that in this topic, but i guess it will come as in any other wow discussion topic) i cant say anything about the PVP, but if its PVE your talking about it just tells me the lack of experience you have with the game... play in a hardcore guild like every other mmo requiers if you want "alot", dont come here and say that you "are done" with WoW and thinks its easy when you have done Molten Core or Blackwing Lair, join a hardcore guild, clear the real instances, then you can try to come and say that its little content... for a hadcore guild nowdays they can barley clear all the instances in one "reset". If you want to play casual, dont play mmo's imo, you will always get disapointed in the end. Another thing that bothers me is that "oldschool mmo players" always whine on that wow is too easy, yeah, its easy, but like any other mmo there is very huge diference between a good and a bad player.
Only reason im playing WoW it is because of the endgame, and just try to say it does not require strategy and skill, because i have played AO, SWG and watched EQ when friends are playing, and the hardest bosses in those games just looks rediciolus... zerg ftw?
Oh well got abit off-topic here but im just geting tierd of the "old skewl mmo hardcore pro uber" players that just dont know shit about the endgame of wow.
And im not saying its the best mmo, it misses alot of important aspects to be rated on top, imo that is.
FFXI, RF Online, Lineage, Lineage II, SWG, Mu Online, Eve Online, are just a few and WoW has one thing better then the rest. A Company who actually cares. I played FFXI for almost 3 years. Its an amazing game but SE drove it into the ground.
So I turned to WoW, and yes I hated it at first and quit, but once I really got into the game I really really like it now. Yes I have an end game raiding guild, and yes we're working on ZG,AQ20,MC,Onyxia so we stay busy. After that its onto Blackwing Lair, Naxxaramas, and whatever the first expansion has to offer. New races coming out, a new PvP league being put into place, there is so much that is going on with WoW that if you ignore actually giving the end game an honest effort(if thats your thing) then you're missing a truly awsome game.
For the same reason that McDonalds isn't rated as the worlds finest restaurant.
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WoW is popular because its so easy to get ahead. You never feel like you're struggling at any point, you're always coasting.
It's an ego and morale booster, it feels great to play.
IMO it holds a #2 spot right behind Eve.
Eve is nowhere near as fun and easy as WoW, but its deep and open.
WoW is a game you play for months and have tons of fun.
Eve is a virtual world that you inhabit for your whole life.
WoW is Wendies. Spicy chicken sandwich + chili mmmmm taste great
Eve is a 4 star restaurant where they give you a small plate of marvelous food. It doesnt really satisfy your hunger, but the food is really good and not loaded with artificial schit like Wendies.
They really complement each other in alot of ways. Sometimes you eat Wendies, sometimes you eat at a restaurant, most of the time you eat at home.
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If I played WoW, didn't like it, and felt like being a prick; I'd score the game a 1.0 across the board just to spite it. I'd imagine many share that same thought process and that explains a portion of why WoW isn't in the top-rated list.
If I played WoW, didn't like it, and felt like being a prick; I'd score the game a 1.0 across the board just to spite it. I'd imagine many share that same thought process and that explains a portion of why WoW isn't in the top-rated list.
Well your 1.0 accross the board would get dropped right off the scoring, as would a 10.0 across the board, and rightly so. A games scores are made up of the average of all of the ratings players have given it. Over time a straight 1 rating and a straight 10 rating have virtually no effect on a games score.
So no, that has absolutely no effect on WoW's score. If you actually look at the ratings they get low marks in performance/lag and customer service and that brings the score down significantly. Those scores are valid and well deserved IMO.
It does. If it wasn't for those straight 1's the balance between those scores and all 10's would completely be destroyed and the rating would shoot up higher then it currently is. The best example of this balance is the hype-meter for upcoming games. People will vote 10 for the games they are behind and score a 1 for the games on the top-hyped list so they get knocked down.
So though it may not have a huge direct effect, those scores do create a balance that can fluctuate back and forth slightly.
The PVE content in WoW is bland. They use 3 or 4 different quest types over and over and just change the mobs and reward, that's not good content IMO. I can't speak for the PVE in Ryzom as I've never played the game, but yes the PVE in EVE is weak, but it is improving over time and it's not the focus of the game anyways, so it's really not worth focusing on that much because the game is very PVP-centric.
TBH Gameloading, you put far too much stock in what reviewers say, they are just people with opinions, many of them DON'T know wth they are talking about. 9 times out of 10 they are just journalists with absolutely no experience developing games. Like I said, just people with opinions. The only people that I feel have a valid view of what is good game design and what is not is other developers, for everyone else it's just a layman's opinion.
For a good example of a reviewer who doesn't know wtf he's talking about, Roger Ebert actually thought the Star Wars Prequels were good movies when in reality they're just a special effects showcase with bad acting and weak dialogue.
If you really think Vivendi “cares” more the Sony, or that Sony cares more then Vivendi it’s no wonder you wouldn’t recognize the problems with WoW. Companies are not their to care they are there to make money for their shareholders they do this by trying to convince people that they do care without actually spending the money it would cost them to really care.
This is not a bad thing because it’s a behavior that can be manipulated to the public advantage, but only if you make yourself part with the notion that these companies care about anything more then the money you give them.
Here, here! lol It's so true it hurts. I had so much fun 1-59, I still say it was one of the most complete feeling MMOs I've ever played in that respect. I raided a lot, got my teir 1 set and my guild was first on our server for almost all MC encounters. But that all was such weak content, that I ended up with 3 level 60 characters (and a 40 and a couple 20s). "PvP" grind? Did that too, got the big mace of doom for my main. Got the black dagger for my rogue alt...
If you really are honest and look at the ratings, it is doing really well. I mean: 8.8 graphics?! Are you kidding me?! 8.8 10 years ago, sure...freaking 1-2 now. Performance/Lag 7.9?! huh? Did these people play on heavy or full servers? Clunky kid graphics and good systems lag so bad they fall into a pit in IF? Little character customization and that is the lag? 7.9 nothing. Community 7.3? lol The WoW community is the worst, most self-destructive/self-hating mmo community I have seen. If I ever see another one like it, I'll probably quit on those grounds alone. Sure there are great guilds and people in the game, but the it's still hard to get past the...the overwhelming crowd attitude. Fun 8.6? I guess I can let that go, since it was such a great game pre-60 and pre-BG. I just the the design evolution has been a downward spiral. I could go on...
Also, the rest of the WoW "community" (i.e. the ones who like raiding or faction grinding) are still playing and probably can't be bothered to come rate it "uber 10" accross the board.
TBH Gameloading, you put far too much stock in what reviewers say, they are just people with opinions, many of them DON'T know wth they are talking about. 9 times out of 10 they are just journalists with absolutely no experience developing games. Like I said, just people with opinions. The only people that I feel have a valid view of what is good game design and what is not is other developers, for everyone else it's just a layman's opinion.
For a good example of a reviewer who doesn't know wtf he's talking about, Roger Ebert actually thought the Star Wars Prequels were good movies when in reality they're just a special effects showcase with bad acting and weak dialogue.
So you're saying you have no valid view of what is good game design and what is not?
Many of us have valid views. They're called opinions. Agree. Disagree. Take em or leave em.
I don't even need to comment on your last paragraph. You have your opinion (which I disagree with) and I have mine. I'll leave it at that instead of telling you that your comments of the movie sound exactly like some negative reviews that I read for Revenge of the Sith.
I don't know about others, but that's not how I've been rating. I'd rather give an honest opinion so people can make educated decisions on games. But, it's like you said, people will rate it 1 and people will rate it 10...so the overall feeling probably still gets accross.
8.1 still isn't a bad rating, it just happens to not be visible on the top 5 list. For the record, I think I rated Eve lower than WoW...it was just the way the numbers of how I felt about the game added up.
Excuses like “WoW players are to busy to come here” and “People give WoW a bad score because it’s popular” don’t wash because there are more WoW players on this site then any other game
Two things to remember, first, most of the regular posters here *have* tried WoW and knows exactly what it’s about. Furthermore they have tried many other games as well and have something to compare it to while the majority of WoW’s ~2 million subscriptions are first time MMO players who lack that broader perspective. (I’m not counting the 5 million Asian players because the subscription model is so different and they have little impact on the rankings of a forum like this)
Second, for over a year after its release WoW was the top ranked game much of that time by a sizable margin. The primary reason it’s dropped is because of the bait and switch tactics it employs. It’s sold as a fast leveling solo friendly MMO and the first 60 levels back that up.
At the time WoW was released there was a large segment of gamers looking for exactly that. The problem is that WoW was co-opted by a group of Hardcore EQ1 players and the end-game was hijacked into becoming a poor imitation of Everquest which was the very thing the people attracted to the initial marketing didn’t want to play.
The people who come here have seen all this and tried WoW and many other games for themselves generally come to a similar conclusion. WoW starts off strong but you run out of things to do. The end game content is a style many of them never wanted and played WoW to avoid and when they find that out they drop their ratings, thus WoW has been on a downward slide in the ratings since about 6 months after it launched.
Bottom line: WoW is a solid, well marketed but rather derivative game. It has a good rating and is jut outside the top 10 but it doesn’t do anything special and the bait and switch marketing turns enough people off to drop it back a few points which is all it takes to end up out of the top 10.
cuz ppl in mmorpg.com hates wow lol
all the players on wow dont come here.