Originally posted by Dinivan Originally posted by Aetius73 Helped or exploited? I'm thinking its the latter. It is your fault what came later if you had done a better job preparing your colonies to be nation states the 3rd world would not be in the mess it is now.
Exploited of course, except for Africa, there we spent more money investing in the continent than what we got in return (there's not a lot of data about the profits we got there, but numbers show the UK lost money so imagine if you add all the other colonial powers), if we had ruled them for more time they would be quite civilized today. Anyway, the fact that initially we wanted to exploit the world doesn't change the final result.
Lets not forget how wealthy and wonderful it is to live in the former colonies of Spanish South America. The point I am trying to make is yeah the European system is good and works for you. The US system is good and works for us, but neither one is best in all situations. These poor countries are going to have to find a system that works for them. Their culture is different from ours (we being the end result of combining several different distinct european cultures). I am happy for you guys that things are going so wonderfully over there now that you have all this new found wealth step up and help to make the world a better place, or even better take this burden from us lord knows we are tired of being the country everyone hates.
p.s. Buy some rainforests from the Brazillians before its too late for Holland!
Originally posted by Aetius73 Lets not forget how wealthy and wonderful it is to live in the former colonies of Spanish South America.
Definitely, living in South America is way better than living in Africa, the Middle East and the vast majority of Asia. And let's not forget that when SA got its independence it had high living standards for its time (that's why many europeans migrated there), then they stagnated but that's their problem, not ours
Originally posted by Aetius73 True if our economy does collaspe it would drag the rest of the world with it because we owe everyone so much money.
Er.. no the rest of the world would stop sending you money and be richer. You aren't paying back the money already. Currently it is either throwing good money after bad or extending a rescue line, time will tell.
The gamble is that you will be able to pay it back off, or more importantly the return I get from my loan repays the initial investment and more before you go bust.
If you do go bust, I will repossess your house and car and sell it to your mate, or use it myself.
Of course what would be more preferable is if you use the money I lend you to get out of debt, make a profit and spend it on some nice English products, or the products of another company that I own. Since I don't really like American architecture or cars.
Originally posted by BigDogofBria I do ask you - all of you - to keep it civil and constructive. Neither of you'll be helping the country/union you're rooting for by bashing the 'opposing' country. Quite the opposite, it'll give others from your general area a bad name and reinforce whatever (senseless) stereotypes you already were associated with. Remember, folks, an eye for an eye makes the world blind.
Thanks, and have a good debate!
BigDogOfBria, I would like to add one thing though. I think what he meant was that the Dutch aided the Americans financially after your war for independence. The Dutch gave you 12 million dollars, which equalled to America's entire foreign debt. Most of that was scratched from your history books, however, due to the Netherlands' activity in slave trading.
Carry on!
Civil and constructive? Of course, since I'm a white american I have to be civil and constructive. God forbid I display any animosity towards another country or race. Everyone is free to trash the US as much as they want. The OP basically calls us all bums, using statistics from our own newspapers, and I'm just supposed to politely accept it.
His post was civil and constructive. If someone disagrees with you it's not automatically an attack on your homeland. And I wasn't talking to Americans - I actually said that to keep both America and Europe-bashing to a minimum.
I don't honestly have to tell you the difference between constructive criticism and a flame, right?
Originally posted by Dinivan Sorry, I don't want to continue answering to the rest of your "questions".
So you decided to address the non-question parts because the actual few questions were to tough?
No I didn't read that article you posted, it was flawed fundamentally comparing the US against an entire league of nations. But lets see it didn't count Germany because of their economic situation yet you used statistics for the US that go back to the 80's when we were in an economic crisis? How conveiniant.
You say NYT is credible? You are going to have to present some proof on that one. I can show you 2 scandals WITH internal investigations by NYT citing that they lack any double checking on their journalists work. The 2 journalists that were guilty of it still work for NYT.
And how about some links to the articles with those quotes so we can all see them IN context and not the way you wished to present them...
The different between the EU countries versus the states has already been discussed up and down. When Baff gave you very good explanation of the differences you just came back with apparently he doesn't know much about the EU.
You are from Spain according to your user info. How is Spain's unemployment rate doing these days compared to the US? That is a percentage number so population counts aren't an issue. How about your Spain's national deficit. How is that one looking?
You seem to claim no patriotism to your own country. You seem to just feel you are a citizen of the EU, would that be a correct assesment? So you are content with the EU telling your country how to spend it's money? Are you complaining to the EU about Spain's current unemployment rating which the last time I checked was pretty dam bad. I want to know if your EU concept is consistent or just when it's convieniant to you to slam the US.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Er.. no the rest of the world would stop sending you money and be richer. You aren't paying back the money already. Currently it is either throwing good money after bad or extending a rescue line, time will tell. The gamble is that you will be able to pay it back off, or more importantly the return I get from my loan repays the initial investment and more before you go bust. If you do go bust, I will repossess your house and car and sell it to your mate, or use it myself. Of course what would be more preferable is if you use the money I lend you to get out of debt, make a profit and spend it on some nice English products, or the products of another company that I own. Since I don't really like American architecture or cars.
Its not that simple lets look at the underlying reason people keep giving us money. The rampant materialism of the United States and our appetitie for cheap imports has made world industries addicted to our demands. For instance the United States buys an amount of crap from China alone to equal $150 for each of their citizens every year! Their standard of living while improving still isn't that great now what happens if you take that money away? Many industries across the world will soon be producing goods with no buyer. Very soon they would have to let people go those people spend money in their local economies soon they would have to stop. The local shop keeper that depended on those people shoping in his store soon has to close his doors because no one is buying and he can't afford to pay his employees or the vendors that depended on him for their lively hood are now out of luck and so on and so on.
The problem with a global economy is that if you take one nail out of the house the whole thing collaspes. Why do you think we were so quick to bail out the Asia when they had their banking crisis in the late nineties? Why do you think governments keep giving us money even though they are becoming increasingly convinced we can't pay? Eighty percent of the money in the world available for loans is going to the United States to keep the global party going. If your leaders don't realise what would happen when we default and stop buying their junk why do they keep doing it? Either they are brilliant or they are a pack of idiots and since you guys think your economies are doing so well I am inclined to think your leaders have a handle on things. Which is it? The world economy takes a big hit if the US goes under or the peope you elected are idiots for giving us more money?
p.s. Do you guys think you would really have that much luck taking our homes? We have the right to bear arms in this country afterall and we are all armed to the teeth(hence the murder rate brought up in Dinivans intial we rock you suck post). Do you think we would let the bankers of the world throw us out of our homes without using them? While I could see the Chinese not giving a crap about it and blowing us away Europeans have shown a general proclivity towards non violence over the last fifty years. We are cowboys afterall I like many of my fellow countrymen have been well trained in the use of fire arms since we were children.
Originally posted by Aetius73 Originally posted by Theodoryk
I'd rather be an arrogant ass than an ignorant ass. I'm not obligated to make sense of your chaotic ramblings. State your position and I'll be happy to address it.
Ok let me get rid of the supporting details and simplfy the question so that you can understand it.
"If your so brilliant at economics then tell me why a $750 billion dollar a year trade deficit on a 12 trillion dollar economy is not bad?"
"In 1945 this country made everything for itself how has funding other nations to undercut our own products been of benefit to us?"
There ya go I miss punctuated one of the sentences it should have had a question mark instead of a period; however the second sentence was clearly a question complete with the question mark how was it unintelliglble? Seems more like an excuse than an answer but here ya go enlighten me oh brilliant one.
Still waiting for your answer Theodoryk. Since it has been over twelve hours I am inclined to think you are full of crap this time like in every other thread I have seen you in. If your not full of crap then please provide the answer to the question and prove your claim that you are well versed in economics.
Originally posted by Dinivan Originally posted by Aetius73 Lets not forget how wealthy and wonderful it is to live in the former colonies of Spanish South America.
Definitely, living in South America is way better than living in Africa, the Middle East and the vast majority of Asia. And let's not forget that when SA got its independence it had high living standards for its time (that's why many europeans migrated there), then they stagnated but that's their problem, not ours
I am sure the local oppressed Indian populations forced to live in the mountains and on the crappiest pieces of land share this view? While the European descendants live decently enough the originial populations live in a state of persistant generational poverty. Please show me how Europe exploiting their country has benefited these people? I believe Spain certainly got rich enough on their gold and silver, but what have they truly gained from Europe because of their circumstances which were caused by Spain? They are too poor to benefit in the technology they can't afford to buy it after all, and too illiterate to participate in the government to change this.
My Church and many others churches and charities in the United States have sent money and people to help build these people shelter and teach them modern farming techniques so that they can finally prosper. What is the EU doing to help these people? Again part of being great is helping others less fortunate than yourself.
So you decided to address the non-question parts because the actual few questions were to tough?
I didn't find any real question on your first posts, that's why I didn't answer to them :P
No I didn't read that article you posted, it was flawed fundamentally comparing the US against an entire league of nations. But lets see it didn't count Germany because of their economic situation yet you used statistics for the US that go back to the 80's when we were in an economic crisis? How conveiniant.
I won't answer to any question related to the article I posted if you haven't read it, it would be pretty stupid. And I recommend you reading it, it's not that long and it has been written by a credible source
You say NYT is credible? You are going to have to present some proof on that one. I can show you 2 scandals WITH internal investigations by NYT citing that they lack any double checking on their journalists work. The 2 journalists that were guilty of it still work for NYT. And how about some links to the articles with those quotes so we can all see them IN context and not the way you wished to present them...
About the NYT, you are right in saying they've got some problems, but the numbers shown on the first post are mostly taken from other agencies such as the OECD. Oh, and it's you that should look for the articles of the quotes if you don't believe them, that's why the author gives the source.
The different between the EU countries versus the states has already been discussed up and down. When Baff gave you very good explanation of the differences you just came back with apparently he doesn't know much about the EU.
Yep, you are right, I'm far from being an expert and I do lot of mistakes, but that poor guy seems to know very little about the EU. In my opinion lot of british have the same problem, I don't know if they've been brainwashed by their politicians or simply they prefer not to look for information and believe everything someone (like "the sun") tells them.
You are from Spain according to your user info. How is Spain's unemployment rate doing these days compared to the US? That is a percentage number so population counts aren't an issue. How about your Spain's national deficit. How is that one looking?
Unempoyment rate of Spain: 8.7% (it's not really that bad if you compare it with the rest of states) Government surplus: 0.2% Public debt: 42% of GDP National deficit: 6.5% of GDP (although for a country like the US having such deficit is much worse, as we are inside the euro and in overall the eurozone had surplus). And is not looking bad, recently it had worsen a bit more, but at a decreased rate as the rest of european economies are starting to catch up with our growth, increasing Spain's exports.
You seem to claim no patriotism to your own country. You seem to just feel you are a citizen of the EU, would that be a correct assesment? So you are content with the EU telling your country how to spend it's money? Are you complaining to the EU about Spain's current unemployment rating which the last time I checked was pretty dam bad. I want to know if your EU concept is consistent or just when it's convieniant to you to slam the US.
It's completely consistent. I'm european above all and I feel it's right for the EU to tell the states how can they spend the money. And no, I don't complain to the EU about our unemployment, Spain reached 20% of unemployment due to the oil crisis in the 70s and the economic crisis of 1992, from there it has been continuously decreasing (Spain joined the EU in 1986), so if anything I should thank the EU
Unempoyment rate of Spain: 8.7% (it's not really that bad if you compare it with the rest of states) Government surplus: 0.2% Public debt: 42% of GDP National deficit: 6.5% of GDP (although for a country like the US having such deficit is much worse, as we are inside the euro and in overall the eurozone had surplus). And is not looking bad, recently it had worsen a bit more, but at a decreased rate as the rest of european economies are starting to catch up with our growth, increasing Spain's exports.
Your national deficit is 6.5%? Doesn't the EU stipulate that your national deficit cannot exceed 3% of GDP a year or has that changed? You guys are being naughty.........
Originally posted by Aetius73 Your national deficit is 6.5%? Doesn't the EU stipulate that your national deficit cannot exceed 3% of GDP a year or has that changed? You guys are being naughty.........
That would be impossible! The EU says it isn't allowed...
I give up with him. It wasn't even his post to begin with apparently. he just copy and pasted this as flamebait. He can't provide links to any of those articles so they can be checked for context.
8.7% not that bad? Compared to the other states? WHAT states, they are fricking countries! I can only guess that your ancestors are rolling over in their graves hearing you after fighting for their countries through the centuries to defend their countries.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Aetius73 Your national deficit is 6.5%? Doesn't the EU stipulate that your national deficit cannot exceed 3% of GDP a year or has that changed? You guys are being naughty.........
That would be impossible! The EU says it isn't allowed...
I give up with him. It wasn't even his post to begin with apparently. he just copy and pasted this as flamebait. He can't provide links to any of those articles so they can be checked for context.
8.7% not that bad? Compared to the other states? WHAT states, they are fricking countries! I can only guess that your ancestors are rolling over in their graves hearing you after fighting for their countries through the centuries to defend their countries.
Lol yeah its been like what 25 years since US unemployment was that bad? I think we hit around 11% during the oil crisis of the seventies when Spain was at 20%. I think we were in the 8% area in what the early eighties?
Your right about the European nations they can't be considered subservient governmentally to the EU. The major difference between a State in the US and a EU nation is that the EU nation retains sovreignty. They have the right to choose whether to be a part of the EU and retain control over local laws and diplomacy. States in the US do not have sovreignty they cannot negotiate with a foreign power on behalf of themselves and Federal Law overules whatever local law the states have set up thus the two are not the same. The EU would compare better to say NAFTA the North American Free Trade Area. Can the EU become like the United States I think so, but they will need a couple more generations to brain wash the citizens out of having national pride first. It took them forty years to convince them that a united currency was the way to go afterall.
Its not that simple lets look at the underlying reason people keep giving us money. The rampant materialism of the United States and our appetitie for cheap imports has made world industries addicted to our demands. For instance the United States buys an amount of crap from China alone to equal $150 for each of their citizens every year! Their standard of living while improving still isn't that great now what happens if you take that money away? Many industries across the world will soon be producing goods with no buyer. Very soon they would have to let people go those people spend money in their local economies soon they would have to stop. The local shop keeper that depended on those people shoping in his store soon has to close his doors because no one is buying and he can't afford to pay his employees or the vendors that depended on him for their lively hood are now out of luck and so on and so on. The problem with a global economy is that if you take one nail out of the house the whole thing collaspes. Why do you think we were so quick to bail out the Asia when they had their banking crisis in the late nineties? Why do you think governments keep giving us money even though they are becoming increasingly convinced we can't pay? Eighty percent of the money in the world available for loans is going to the United States to keep the global party going. If your leaders don't realise what would happen when we default and stop buying their junk why do they keep doing it? Either they are brilliant or they are a pack of idiots and since you guys think your economies are doing so well I am inclined to think your leaders have a handle on things. Which is it? The world economy takes a big hit if the US goes under or the peope you elected are idiots for giving us more money? p.s. Do you guys think you would really have that much luck taking our homes? We have the right to bear arms in this country afterall and we are all armed to the teeth(hence the murder rate brought up in Dinivans intial we rock you suck post). Do you think we would let the bankers of the world throw us out of our homes without using them? While I could see the Chinese not giving a crap about it and blowing us away Europeans have shown a general proclivity towards non violence over the last fifty years. We are cowboys afterall I like many of my fellow countrymen have been well trained in the use of fire arms since we were children.
I would have no trouble taking your home whatsoever. All your mates who bought their homes with my money would do it for me. In fact they already do. This is a regular occourance in normal daily life. If you want to go all John Wayne about it, your police and army are trained in the use of guns also.
Let me make it explicitely clear to you, when I lend the U.S. money, I do not do so to "keep the world party going". I do not do it so that you can buy my goods from me with my own money. So that I can work, just because I enjoy working.
I am retired. I enjoy "not working". You pay back the money with intrest or it will stop being lent. The U.S. has a lot of assets to put up against any loan. Houses, cars, factories, Embassies, ships, aeroplanes. Anytime you want to default, I am willing and able to collect.
That would be impossible! The EU says it isn't allowed...
Well, let me explain it to you. Government deficit cannot exceed 3% of GDP, and as I said, Spain not only didn't exceed that limit but our government had a surplus equal to 0.2% of GDP. I used the national deficit as a synonim of current account deficit, where there's no limit (as it would be completely impossible to be controlled considering that the monetary policy is given by the ECB).
I give up with him. It wasn't even his post to begin with apparently. he just copy and pasted this as flamebait. He can't provide links to any of those articles so they can be checked for context.
LOL, of course it was not my post and never said it was mine, you should have noticed it before as I'd given the link (which is in the same post ^^)
8.7% not that bad? Compared to the other states? WHAT states, they are fricking countries! I can only guess that your ancestors are rolling over in their graves hearing you after fighting for their countries through the centuries to defend their countries.
States like France, Germany or Poland, they have a slightly larger unemployment rate. If you want more examples, look for them. And no, I think my ancestors are pretty happy knowing that finally no more europeans will die fighting each other.
I would have no trouble taking your home whatsoever. All your mates who bought their homes with my money would do it for me. In fact they already do. This is a regular occourance in normal daily life. If you want to go all John Wayne about it, your police and army are trained in the use of guns also.
Let me make it explicitely clear to you, when I lend the U.S. money, I do not do so to "keep the world party going". I do not do it so that you can buy my goods from me with my own money. So that I can work, just because I enjoy working.
I am retired. I enjoy "not working". You pay back the money with intrest or it will stop being lent. The U.S. has a lot of assets to put up against any loan. Houses, cars, factories, Embassies, ships, aeroplanes. Anytime you want to default, I am willing and able to collect.
Welcome to reality.
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I read the NYT, it's credible enough for me.
The question is would the US government allow this to happen en mass? Sure repossesions happen every day in fact homes are being repossed here at rates not seen since the great depression, but what happens when all the loans are called in at once when the world finally realizes we are broke? I don't think the soldiers would kick everyone out on the street afterall they need homes too. Who pays their pay check? That would be the US government that is getting 2 Billion in loans every day to stay afloat.
So if all the loans were called in at once we would simply cause a period of massive inflation to pay all the loans off for the price of a cup of coffe. This happens in Africa all the time. This is the principle reason the US has stoped reporting M3 (which lets you know exatcly how many US dollars are in circulation) they are printing dollars now like they are going out of style devaluating the value of your loans daily why do you think the Euro keeps getting stronger and stronger against the dollar? Ever wonder why an Ounce of Gold has doubled in price in terms of dollars over the last three years? Simple there are twice as many dollars chasing each ounce of gold. Your leaders have had to have noticed this yet they keep sending us money why? Lets explore a few reasons.
There are so many dollars outside of the US now that if they all came flooding back home it would be Germany in the 1920s all over again. Your right the loans will be paid off in full but not quite in the way you were hoping. This won't happen tommrow but 10 to twenty more years of these trade deficits I'm thinking yeah.
The US hasn't had a balance of payments surplus since 1991. Half of our assets are gone in just fifteen years. We are spending more than we are producing this is causing an artifical economic expansion that cannot continue forever. Hence the term party to indicate this state of affairs. You guys are making loans on property we no longer have is that really smart?
This country is already literally half owned by foreign governments and entities. Again we stop buying stuff because we are broke people loose their jobs the people that provided goods and services to those people loose there jobs etc etc. Its happened before it will happen again remeber the 1930s?The longer the party keeps going though the less our economy will matter in the scheme of things but currently it still matters quite a bit that is why people keep giving us more money. The key is China once they are in place with a middle class to soak up goods the world will no longer need the US and they will stop giving us money to buy crap with.
My hope that as the dollar crashes our goods will finally be cheaper and we can restore a balance of payments surplus to dig us out of this hole. Question is are the bankers of the world gonna wait for that to happen?
The New York Times has been discredited on several occasions over the last couple of years btw. A great many Americans no longer believe what they have to say. Congress came very close to revoking their press privledges in Washington DC earlier this year.
p.s. To my horror I learned last night that the Jerry Springer show is broadcast in fifty different countries around the world no wonder you guys think all of us are idiots.
I love Jerry. But the reason we think you are all idiots is because we actually talk to you.
Originally posted by Aetius73 The question is would the US government allow this to happen en mass? Sure repossesions happen every day in fact homes are being repossed here at rates not seen since the great depression, but what happens when all the loans are called in at once when the world finally realizes we are broke? I don't think the soldiers would kick everyone out on the street afterall they need homes too. Who pays their pay check? That would be the US government that is getting 2 Billion in loans every day to stay afloat. So if all the loans were called in at once we would simply cause a period of massive inflation to pay all the loans off for the price of a cup of coffe. This happens in Africa all the time. This is the principle reason the US has stoped reporting M3 (which lets you know exatcly how many US dollars are in circulation) they are printing dollars now like they are going out of style devaluating the value of your loans daily why do you think the Euro keeps getting stronger and stronger against the dollar? Ever wonder why an Ounce of Gold has doubled in price in terms of dollars over the last three years? Simple there are twice as many dollars chasing each ounce of gold. Your leaders have had to have noticed this yet they keep sending us money why? Lets explore a few reasons.
.
Sounds to me like the US government already is allowing this to happen en mass. Rather that than I stop lending them money too, I suppose.
The loans are not all called in simultaneously, because you don't all go bankrupt simultaneously. And domestic inflation doesn't affect foreign currency. You will repay me in £. If your house becomes worth less, I'll take your house and your car and your T.V. too. There's no magic Get Out of Jail Free Card. Even if you declare war I'll get my money.
"My leaders" aren't sending you any money. I am.
My reasons have been explored and communicated. The money I give my leaders they spend on big dinners in exotic places and bribing their voters. They don't "send it to you". I do. Old duffers like me, lend you our lifes savings at a commercial rate.
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And the NYT is good enough for me. What Americans will or won't believe doesn't affect my opinion. I've heard too much about WMD and Saddam and Aliens. Or you who thinks foreign governments invest in America. Discrediting the odd story here and there is normal for any news service. 99.99999% of the time they will be accurate.
Originally posted by Dinivan States like France, Germany or Poland, they have a slightly larger unemployment rate. If you want more examples, look for them. And no, I think my ancestors are pretty happy knowing that finally no more europeans will die fighting each other.
So you are justifying Spains very bad unemployment rate because some other countries are worse? Good way to set your goals both personal and national...
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by baff I wouldn't bet the farm on that last one.
Baff, I just wanted to say thanks for some really good information you threw out here. Excellent posts!
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by Aetius73 p.s. To my horror I learned last night that the Jerry Springer show is broadcast in fifty different countries around the world no wonder you guys think all of us are idiots.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Originally posted by baff The loans are not all called in simultaneously, because you don't all go bankrupt simultaneously. And domestic inflation doesn't affect foreign currency. You will repay me in £. If your house becomes worth less, I'll take your house and your car and your T.V. too. There's no magic Get Out of Jail Free Card. Even if you declare war I'll get my money.
This would be great except most of our loans are denominated in U.S. dollars not Euros this includes the entire debt of the U.S. Government. This is were having the world's reserve currency is going to get us off the hook once.
Judging by the Jerry comment you are convinced of your superiority but you haven't given me any cold hard facts why your view is the right one. Now granted a lot of what I have had to say is speculation of future financial outcomes based on current trends, but what you have contrinuted to this conversation is basically nothing beyond you will pay or we will take everything how does that make you so smart? How successful have you guys been in collecting your default loans in Africa I'm guessing not very. We haven't had much luck at that either even with our big military. You can't make people give what they don't have.
I think deep down you are horrified by the possibilty by what I am speculating may be true and are too scared to admit it or at the very least lack the knowledge to refute it effectively. If you do you better speak up because I am growing weary of listening to your overbloated egotistical comments without any actual data.
I think I can guess what you are gonna say more of the same crap "I'm smart your an idiot you will pay America sucks." Not a single one of you have been able to refute my speculation though with any kind of credible reason why not? I thought you were so smart.
The banks will call in the loans denominated in U.S. currency if that currency starts to tumble they would be idiots not too it has happend time and again what do you think caused the Asian Bank Crisis? Asian currencies started to rapidly devalue so banks started calling in loans all over the place really messy. Europe and the U.S. stepped in with loan guarntees so the entire global economy wouldn't melt. Who is gonna step in to bail us out?
I am sure the local oppressed Indian populations forced to live in the mountains and on the crappiest pieces of land share this view? While the European descendants live decently enough the originial populations live in a state of persistant generational poverty. Please show me how Europe exploiting their country has benefited these people?
Well, clearly it's not possible to leave everyone better off, but in overall those societies won after being our colonies even if that means that some sectors couldn't benefit at all.
They have the right to choose whether to be a part of the EU and retain control over local laws and diplomacy. States in the US do not have sovreignty they cannot negotiate with a foreign power on behalf of themselves and Federal Law overules whatever local law the states have set up thus the two are not the same. The EU would compare better to say NAFTA the North American Free Trade Area. Can the EU become like the United States I think so, but they will need a couple more generations to brain wash the citizens out of having national pride first. It took them forty years to convince them that a united currency was the way to go afterall.
I might be wrong, but I remember a case in which the US states bordering the Great Lakes negotiated with Canada a treaty to leave that mass of water unexploited, so I'm sure there might be more cases in which a US state has had some kind of negotiations with a foreign country. And tell me, does NAFTA have a government? a parliament? a court of justice? do you vote for NAFTA elections? does NAFTA make laws you MUST accept and apply? has NAFTA granted you the NAFTA's citizenship? does NAFTA have its own currency? etc...
So you are justifying Spains very bad unemployment rate because some other countries are worse? Good way to set your goals both personal and national...
Do you know any other way (not arbitrary) to set our goals?, if the mean is 5% then our goal is to have 5% of unemployment. That is not strange, and even it's used for example with inflation. According to the EU you cannot have an inflation superior to 1.5% of the mean of the three states with less inflation.
And domestic inflation doesn't affect foreign currency. You will repay me in £
Normally that's not true. Most of the times debt is denominated in dollars because it is thought that it's a strong currency, so they'll pay you in dollars and you'll have to convert them into £.
That's the reason for which this:
So if all the loans were called in at once we would simply cause a period of massive inflation to pay all the loans off for the price of a cup of coffe. This happens in Africa all the time.
is not that simple. No one trusts african governments so they have to issue the debt denominated in or dollars. That means that when they ran out of money and start printing like crazy, their currencies devaluate, but taxes are still paid in the home currency, but they have to pay in dollars, so either the IMF helps them or they go bankrupt like happened in some south american countries in the 80's. But that's not the case of the US, cos if they have to print money the dollar will devaluate but you'll still receive the same amount of dollars, meaning that you'll lose lot of money when converting them to pounds. This is not fair and in reality it should have changed long ago when the US betrayed Europe and finally bretton woods collapsed, but at that time the euro didn't exist so there wasn't any alternative to the dollar.
is not that simple. No one trusts african governments so they have to issue the debt denominated in € or dollars. That means that when they ran out of money and start printing like crazy, their currencies devaluate, but taxes are still paid in the home currency, but they have to pay in dollars, so either the IMF helps them or they go bankrupt like happened in some south american countries in the 80's. But that's not the case of the US, cos if they have to print money the dollar will devaluate but you'll still receive the same amount of dollars, meaning that you'll lose lot of money when converting them to pounds. This is not fair and in reality it should have changed long ago when the US betrayed Europe and finally bretton woods collapsed, but at that time the euro didn't exist so there wasn't any alternative to the dollar.
Yeah in the case of African governments your right it doesn't work the loan never goes away, but in this case if the U.S. dollar goes into hyperinflation we will be able to pay our loans off easily because those loans were in our currency. After that though I doubt we will ever be able to get loans in our currency again from non-U.S. citizens and the Euro will become the world's reserve currency.
Bretton Woods ended because we did not have an unlimited supply of gold to pay Europe whenever you guys decided to convert those dollars into gold from all the cars watches etc. we were buying from you. I can see how you guys see that as a betrayal, but you got to admit we would not have been able to pay you forever in that manner so it would have ended anyways. At which point the ripple effect that I have been trying to describe to Baff would have kicked in causing great hardship in the world economy. At that point in history everyone was better off letting the currencies float instead of taking every last bit of gold away that was backing the dollar.
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It officle, I am moving to france once I have have graduated college.
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Lets not forget how wealthy and wonderful it is to live in the former colonies of Spanish South America. The point I am trying to make is yeah the European system is good and works for you. The US system is good and works for us, but neither one is best in all situations. These poor countries are going to have to find a system that works for them. Their culture is different from ours (we being the end result of combining several different distinct european cultures). I am happy for you guys that things are going so wonderfully over there now that you have all this new found wealth step up and help to make the world a better place, or even better take this burden from us lord knows we are tired of being the country everyone hates.
p.s. Buy some rainforests from the Brazillians before its too late for Holland!
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Er.. no the rest of the world would stop sending you money and be richer. You aren't paying back the money already. Currently it is either throwing good money after bad or extending a rescue line, time will tell.
The gamble is that you will be able to pay it back off, or more importantly the return I get from my loan repays the initial investment and more before you go bust.
If you do go bust, I will repossess your house and car and sell it to your mate, or use it myself.
Of course what would be more preferable is if you use the money I lend you to get out of debt, make a profit and spend it on some nice English products, or the products of another company that I own. Since I don't really like American architecture or cars.
Civil and constructive? Of course, since I'm a white american I have to be civil and constructive. God forbid I display any animosity towards another country or race. Everyone is free to trash the US as much as they want. The OP basically calls us all bums, using statistics from our own newspapers, and I'm just supposed to politely accept it.
His post was civil and constructive. If someone disagrees with you it's not automatically an attack on your homeland. And I wasn't talking to Americans - I actually said that to keep both America and Europe-bashing to a minimum.
I don't honestly have to tell you the difference between constructive criticism and a flame, right?
So you decided to address the non-question parts because the actual few questions were to tough?
No I didn't read that article you posted, it was flawed fundamentally comparing the US against an entire league of nations. But lets see it didn't count Germany because of their economic situation yet you used statistics for the US that go back to the 80's when we were in an economic crisis? How conveiniant.
You say NYT is credible? You are going to have to present some proof on that one. I can show you 2 scandals WITH internal investigations by NYT citing that they lack any double checking on their journalists work. The 2 journalists that were guilty of it still work for NYT.
And how about some links to the articles with those quotes so we can all see them IN context and not the way you wished to present them...
The different between the EU countries versus the states has already been discussed up and down. When Baff gave you very good explanation of the differences you just came back with apparently he doesn't know much about the EU.
You are from Spain according to your user info. How is Spain's unemployment rate doing these days compared to the US? That is a percentage number so population counts aren't an issue. How about your Spain's national deficit. How is that one looking?
You seem to claim no patriotism to your own country. You seem to just feel you are a citizen of the EU, would that be a correct assesment? So you are content with the EU telling your country how to spend it's money? Are you complaining to the EU about Spain's current unemployment rating which the last time I checked was pretty dam bad. I want to know if your EU concept is consistent or just when it's convieniant to you to slam the US.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Its not that simple lets look at the underlying reason people keep giving us money. The rampant materialism of the United States and our appetitie for cheap imports has made world industries addicted to our demands. For instance the United States buys an amount of crap from China alone to equal $150 for each of their citizens every year! Their standard of living while improving still isn't that great now what happens if you take that money away? Many industries across the world will soon be producing goods with no buyer. Very soon they would have to let people go those people spend money in their local economies soon they would have to stop. The local shop keeper that depended on those people shoping in his store soon has to close his doors because no one is buying and he can't afford to pay his employees or the vendors that depended on him for their lively hood are now out of luck and so on and so on.
The problem with a global economy is that if you take one nail out of the house the whole thing collaspes. Why do you think we were so quick to bail out the Asia when they had their banking crisis in the late nineties? Why do you think governments keep giving us money even though they are becoming increasingly convinced we can't pay? Eighty percent of the money in the world available for loans is going to the United States to keep the global party going. If your leaders don't realise what would happen when we default and stop buying their junk why do they keep doing it? Either they are brilliant or they are a pack of idiots and since you guys think your economies are doing so well I am inclined to think your leaders have a handle on things. Which is it? The world economy takes a big hit if the US goes under or the peope you elected are idiots for giving us more money?
p.s. Do you guys think you would really have that much luck taking our homes? We have the right to bear arms in this country afterall and we are all armed to the teeth(hence the murder rate brought up in Dinivans intial we rock you suck post). Do you think we would let the bankers of the world throw us out of our homes without using them? While I could see the Chinese not giving a crap about it and blowing us away Europeans have shown a general proclivity towards non violence over the last fifty years. We are cowboys afterall I like many of my fellow countrymen have been well trained in the use of fire arms since we were children.
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Ok let me get rid of the supporting details and simplfy the question so that you can understand it.
"If your so brilliant at economics then tell me why a $750 billion dollar a year trade deficit on a 12 trillion dollar economy is not bad?"
"In 1945 this country made everything for itself how has funding other nations to undercut our own products been of benefit to us?"
There ya go I miss punctuated one of the sentences it should have had a question mark instead of a period; however the second sentence was clearly a question complete with the question mark how was it unintelliglble? Seems more like an excuse than an answer but here ya go enlighten me oh brilliant one.
Still waiting for your answer Theodoryk. Since it has been over twelve hours I am inclined to think you are full of crap this time like in every other thread I have seen you in. If your not full of crap then please provide the answer to the question and prove your claim that you are well versed in economics.
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I am sure the local oppressed Indian populations forced to live in the mountains and on the crappiest pieces of land share this view? While the European descendants live decently enough the originial populations live in a state of persistant generational poverty. Please show me how Europe exploiting their country has benefited these people? I believe Spain certainly got rich enough on their gold and silver, but what have they truly gained from Europe because of their circumstances which were caused by Spain? They are too poor to benefit in the technology they can't afford to buy it after all, and too illiterate to participate in the government to change this.
My Church and many others churches and charities in the United States have sent money and people to help build these people shelter and teach them modern farming techniques so that they can finally prosper. What is the EU doing to help these people? Again part of being great is helping others less fortunate than yourself.
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I won't answer to any question related to the article I posted if you haven't read it, it would be pretty stupid. And I recommend you reading it, it's not that long and it has been written by a credible sourceGovernment surplus: 0.2%
Public debt: 42% of GDP
National deficit: 6.5% of GDP (although for a country like the US having such deficit is much worse, as we are inside the euro and in overall the eurozone had surplus). And is not looking bad, recently it had worsen a bit more, but at a decreased rate as the rest of european economies are starting to catch up with our growth, increasing Spain's exports. It's completely consistent. I'm european above all and I feel it's right for the EU to tell the states how can they spend the money. And no, I don't complain to the EU about our unemployment, Spain reached 20% of unemployment due to the oil crisis in the 70s and the economic crisis of 1992, from there it has been continuously decreasing (Spain joined the EU in 1986), so if anything I should thank the EU
Your national deficit is 6.5%? Doesn't the EU stipulate that your national deficit cannot exceed 3% of GDP a year or has that changed? You guys are being naughty.........
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That would be impossible! The EU says it isn't allowed...
I give up with him. It wasn't even his post to begin with apparently. he just copy and pasted this as flamebait. He can't provide links to any of those articles so they can be checked for context.
8.7% not that bad? Compared to the other states? WHAT states, they are fricking countries! I can only guess that your ancestors are rolling over in their graves hearing you after fighting for their countries through the centuries to defend their countries.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
That would be impossible! The EU says it isn't allowed...
I give up with him. It wasn't even his post to begin with apparently. he just copy and pasted this as flamebait. He can't provide links to any of those articles so they can be checked for context.
8.7% not that bad? Compared to the other states? WHAT states, they are fricking countries! I can only guess that your ancestors are rolling over in their graves hearing you after fighting for their countries through the centuries to defend their countries.
Lol yeah its been like what 25 years since US unemployment was that bad? I think we hit around 11% during the oil crisis of the seventies when Spain was at 20%. I think we were in the 8% area in what the early eighties?
Your right about the European nations they can't be considered subservient governmentally to the EU. The major difference between a State in the US and a EU nation is that the EU nation retains sovreignty. They have the right to choose whether to be a part of the EU and retain control over local laws and diplomacy. States in the US do not have sovreignty they cannot negotiate with a foreign power on behalf of themselves and Federal Law overules whatever local law the states have set up thus the two are not the same. The EU would compare better to say NAFTA the North American Free Trade Area. Can the EU become like the United States I think so, but they will need a couple more generations to brain wash the citizens out of having national pride first. It took them forty years to convince them that a united currency was the way to go afterall.
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I would have no trouble taking your home whatsoever. All your mates who bought their homes with my money would do it for me. In fact they already do. This is a regular occourance in normal daily life. If you want to go all John Wayne about it, your police and army are trained in the use of guns also.
Let me make it explicitely clear to you, when I lend the U.S. money, I do not do so to "keep the world party going". I do not do it so that you can buy my goods from me with my own money. So that I can work, just because I enjoy working.
I am retired. I enjoy "not working". You pay back the money with intrest or it will stop being lent. The U.S. has a lot of assets to put up against any loan. Houses, cars, factories, Embassies, ships, aeroplanes. Anytime you want to default, I am willing and able to collect.
Welcome to reality.
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I read the NYT, it's credible enough for me.
I would have no trouble taking your home whatsoever. All your mates who bought their homes with my money would do it for me. In fact they already do. This is a regular occourance in normal daily life. If you want to go all John Wayne about it, your police and army are trained in the use of guns also.
Let me make it explicitely clear to you, when I lend the U.S. money, I do not do so to "keep the world party going". I do not do it so that you can buy my goods from me with my own money. So that I can work, just because I enjoy working.
I am retired. I enjoy "not working". You pay back the money with intrest or it will stop being lent. The U.S. has a lot of assets to put up against any loan. Houses, cars, factories, Embassies, ships, aeroplanes. Anytime you want to default, I am willing and able to collect.
Welcome to reality.
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I read the NYT, it's credible enough for me.
The question is would the US government allow this to happen en mass? Sure repossesions happen every day in fact homes are being repossed here at rates not seen since the great depression, but what happens when all the loans are called in at once when the world finally realizes we are broke? I don't think the soldiers would kick everyone out on the street afterall they need homes too. Who pays their pay check? That would be the US government that is getting 2 Billion in loans every day to stay afloat.
So if all the loans were called in at once we would simply cause a period of massive inflation to pay all the loans off for the price of a cup of coffe. This happens in Africa all the time. This is the principle reason the US has stoped reporting M3 (which lets you know exatcly how many US dollars are in circulation) they are printing dollars now like they are going out of style devaluating the value of your loans daily why do you think the Euro keeps getting stronger and stronger against the dollar? Ever wonder why an Ounce of Gold has doubled in price in terms of dollars over the last three years? Simple there are twice as many dollars chasing each ounce of gold. Your leaders have had to have noticed this yet they keep sending us money why? Lets explore a few reasons.
There are so many dollars outside of the US now that if they all came flooding back home it would be Germany in the 1920s all over again. Your right the loans will be paid off in full but not quite in the way you were hoping. This won't happen tommrow but 10 to twenty more years of these trade deficits I'm thinking yeah.
The US hasn't had a balance of payments surplus since 1991. Half of our assets are gone in just fifteen years. We are spending more than we are producing this is causing an artifical economic expansion that cannot continue forever. Hence the term party to indicate this state of affairs. You guys are making loans on property we no longer have is that really smart?
This country is already literally half owned by foreign governments and entities. Again we stop buying stuff because we are broke people loose their jobs the people that provided goods and services to those people loose there jobs etc etc. Its happened before it will happen again remeber the 1930s?The longer the party keeps going though the less our economy will matter in the scheme of things but currently it still matters quite a bit that is why people keep giving us more money. The key is China once they are in place with a middle class to soak up goods the world will no longer need the US and they will stop giving us money to buy crap with.
My hope that as the dollar crashes our goods will finally be cheaper and we can restore a balance of payments surplus to dig us out of this hole. Question is are the bankers of the world gonna wait for that to happen?
The New York Times has been discredited on several occasions over the last couple of years btw. A great many Americans no longer believe what they have to say. Congress came very close to revoking their press privledges in Washington DC earlier this year.
p.s. To my horror I learned last night that the Jerry Springer show is broadcast in fifty different countries around the world no wonder you guys think all of us are idiots.
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Sounds to me like the US government already is allowing this to happen en mass. Rather that than I stop lending them money too, I suppose.
The loans are not all called in simultaneously, because you don't all go bankrupt simultaneously. And domestic inflation doesn't affect foreign currency. You will repay me in £. If your house becomes worth less, I'll take your house and your car and your T.V. too. There's no magic Get Out of Jail Free Card. Even if you declare war I'll get my money.
"My leaders" aren't sending you any money. I am.
My reasons have been explored and communicated. The money I give my leaders they spend on big dinners in exotic places and bribing their voters. They don't "send it to you". I do. Old duffers like me, lend you our lifes savings at a commercial rate.
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And the NYT is good enough for me. What Americans will or won't believe doesn't affect my opinion. I've heard too much about WMD and Saddam and Aliens. Or you who thinks foreign governments invest in America. Discrediting the odd story here and there is normal for any news service. 99.99999% of the time they will be accurate.
So you are justifying Spains very bad unemployment rate because some other countries are worse? Good way to set your goals both personal and national...
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Baff, I just wanted to say thanks for some really good information you threw out here. Excellent posts!
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
This would be great except most of our loans are denominated in U.S. dollars not Euros this includes the entire debt of the U.S. Government. This is were having the world's reserve currency is going to get us off the hook once.
Judging by the Jerry comment you are convinced of your superiority but you haven't given me any cold hard facts why your view is the right one. Now granted a lot of what I have had to say is speculation of future financial outcomes based on current trends, but what you have contrinuted to this conversation is basically nothing beyond you will pay or we will take everything how does that make you so smart? How successful have you guys been in collecting your default loans in Africa I'm guessing not very. We haven't had much luck at that either even with our big military. You can't make people give what they don't have.
I think deep down you are horrified by the possibilty by what I am speculating may be true and are too scared to admit it or at the very least lack the knowledge to refute it effectively. If you do you better speak up because I am growing weary of listening to your overbloated egotistical comments without any actual data.
I think I can guess what you are gonna say more of the same crap "I'm smart your an idiot you will pay America sucks." Not a single one of you have been able to refute my speculation though with any kind of credible reason why not? I thought you were so smart.
The banks will call in the loans denominated in U.S. currency if that currency starts to tumble they would be idiots not too it has happend time and again what do you think caused the Asian Bank Crisis? Asian currencies started to rapidly devalue so banks started calling in loans all over the place really messy. Europe and the U.S. stepped in with loan guarntees so the entire global economy wouldn't melt. Who is gonna step in to bail us out?
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That's the reason for which this:
is not that simple. No one trusts african governments so they have to issue the debt denominated in or dollars. That means that when they ran out of money and start printing like crazy, their currencies devaluate, but taxes are still paid in the home currency, but they have to pay in dollars, so either the IMF helps them or they go bankrupt like happened in some south american countries in the 80's. But that's not the case of the US, cos if they have to print money the dollar will devaluate but you'll still receive the same amount of dollars, meaning that you'll lose lot of money when converting them to pounds.This is not fair and in reality it should have changed long ago when the US betrayed Europe and finally bretton woods collapsed, but at that time the euro didn't exist so there wasn't any alternative to the dollar.
Yeah in the case of African governments your right it doesn't work the loan never goes away, but in this case if the U.S. dollar goes into hyperinflation we will be able to pay our loans off easily because those loans were in our currency. After that though I doubt we will ever be able to get loans in our currency again from non-U.S. citizens and the Euro will become the world's reserve currency.
Bretton Woods ended because we did not have an unlimited supply of gold to pay Europe whenever you guys decided to convert those dollars into gold from all the cars watches etc. we were buying from you. I can see how you guys see that as a betrayal, but you got to admit we would not have been able to pay you forever in that manner so it would have ended anyways. At which point the ripple effect that I have been trying to describe to Baff would have kicked in causing great hardship in the world economy. At that point in history everyone was better off letting the currencies float instead of taking every last bit of gold away that was backing the dollar.
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