Originally posted by outfctrl Yea.....Yea.....Yea.... *sniff* I see all the banning...LOL Sure hasnt slowed down the gold farmers. Why do you care anyways how I play? The sodding EULA, as you call it, is to make you people that complain, have something to fall back on and to make you warm and fuzzy. BTW.......I have never bought one piece of gold with real money. I am playing the "Devils Advocate" here just to hear your views. Personally, I am not against buying gold with real money. It has never affected my gameplay....EVER. Some of my sons friends have bought gold to get their epic mounts in WoW. How in the world does that affect you? It doesnt. It sure makes their game playing more enjoyable though.
Stop skimming, and read the posts. I'm all for someone being the devil's advocate here, as long as they're not relating from experience with WoW. WoW is a unique game to the others that are out there. Not once have I complained of RMT in WoW. I still don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it has the same effect in that game as others. And I will stand by my statements that no matter what game, you are cheating if you buy currency. In most games (WoW notwisthstanding), the demand supplied by you the player does in fact directly affect the rest of everyone else playing the game by creating the necessity for a farmer to suddenly pop into the world and do their thing. Your fun = my expense, period.
And yes, I'd like a violin, please
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
PPL selling gil/gold in these games are horrible i mean common its a game Y would you buy fake money with real money? you cant get you money back its gone.... CHEATERS
my best friend is a cheater and it angers me cuz i know hes the reason im farming for hrs and hrs to catch up with him
Originally posted by Tsukikagex Outside of SOE's Services it is banned, but they found a legal loophole through by selling the time they spent collecting the gold instead of the gold itself, someone really needs to patch up that loophole then the MMORPG companies can go sue crazy on their RMT asses if they try it
Umm, no... that's one "loophole" you really don't want to get patched up, because of what it would lead to. Think about it; what are farmers doing differently than you and I? They kill mobs, loot mobs, sell items at AH, and transfer gold to other people. Are any of these things by themselves against the EULA? I think not. The point is, in order to allow legal action against gold farmers, you have to allow commercial companies in general to decide what, where and how their products can or can not be used, or face possible prison time. That's a can of worms you really don't want to mess with; I mean, you don't want to read and memorise 100+ pages of rules about accepted usage when you buy a hammer, do you? Or about where you are allowed to eat the meal you just bought from McDonalds and where you aren't? Eventually you forget, get sued and fined BIG. Tricking people this way would be good business.
It might be a legal loophole, but that does not mean they cant be banned.
Banned? Yup, in a second. You enter someones apartment and break all the rules of the owner... the owner has the right to kick you out the door. Say what you want, its not your apartment
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Originally posted by sly220 PPL selling gil/gold in these games are horrible i mean common its a game Y would you buy fake money with real money? you cant get you money back its gone.... CHEATERS
Why would you pay real money to go see a movie? Why pay real money to go see a football game?
Why? because you enjoy it. You cant get your money back, its gone.
Originally posted by Harafnir It might be a legal loophole, but that does not mean they cant be banned. Banned? Yup, in a second. You enter someones apartment and break all the rules of the owner... the owner has the right to kick you out the door. Say what you want, its not your apartment
I think your statement reflects more on hacking a game, not buying gold.
Buying Gold is like breaking the speed limit by a few miles an hour or using a california stop at a stop sign. Sometimes its overlooked, sometimes you get busted.
Originally posted by outfctrl Buying Gold is like breaking the speed limit by a few miles an hour or using a california stop at a stop sign. Sometimes its overlooked, sometimes you get busted.
I would rather compare it to clubs not allowing people in wearing tennis shoes. Sure they can ask people to leave if they notice them breaking their house rule just like a game company can ban the people who break the EULA, but wearing tennis shoes is by itself not a crime, and I'm kinda reluctant to give bar owners the right to make new laws with possible prison sentences included, even if they only apply inside their own bar.
Originally posted by Precusor Best way to deal with the farmers and botters is to just perma bann the buyers.
Why do you have an EVE character as your avatar if that's your attitude, since EVE is a game that embraces selling in-game currency for real cash? The only requirement to make selling gold legal is that you have to buy a time card from CCP, then sell it for ISK. If gold buying offends you so deeply, it would make sense not to support CCP and their open support of gold-selling.
Originally posted by outfctrl Originally posted by sly220 PPL selling gil/gold in these games are horrible i mean common its a game Y would you buy fake money with real money? you cant get you money back its gone.... CHEATERS
Why would you pay real money to go see a movie? Why pay real money to go see a football game?
Why? because you enjoy it. You cant get your money back, its gone.
U must be one of the many CHEATERS
im not gonna play devils advocate with you but football games, movies is real life activity not a factious activity. so good luck with the cheating.
Originally posted by sly220 U must be one of the many CHEATERS im not gonna play devils advocate with you but football games, movies is real life activity not a factious activity. so good luck with the cheating.
And you my friend are one of the many cry babies that whine CHEATER when you cant have what you want. Just deal with it.
Enjoyment is enjoyment, no matter what the activity is.
However, under what conditions do you think these people work for their "daily bread"?
I guess it beats the alternative since they choose to work there. Sweatshops > death by starvation, no?
It would seem that they would require a demand before providing the supply in a business that would require a substantial investment ahead of time.
It would seem that they could get at least some idea about the success of a game beforehand by looking at previews, ratings, beta test signups, presale amounts, etc. They would not send their entire army of farmers into the new game anyway, they would scale it up with the player base, so not much risk is involved. Even if none of this actually worked, the "grace period" would only ever involve the very first servers that go live.
The situation would be different because real players get what they need and move on, unless farming for a particular item to make money.
When one moves on, another moves in. And if players don't need money, farmers don't have customers, so it's probably a safe bet that everyone always needs money, so everyone would always be camping the same few farm spots anyway. They might of course sleep sometimes, but shouldn't you also sleep sometimes?
Also, I don't think making everything instanced is the solution.
Agreed, I also prefer the way WoW did it.
The problem is that RMT scales the economy across the board by bringing in more currency than any normal players would.
How do they do that? Shouldn't they be gaining items and money at the same rate as normal players, so the actual overall ratio of items vs. money in the economy doesn't change, no? They kill the same mobs as we do.
What they may do is accelerate the economy, since more of both items and money are entering the system; a server of 1000 people might have an economy equal to that of a server with 2000 people without farmers. But eventually a server of 1000 people grows to a server of 2000 people anyway so...
by their monopoly of certain items, they were simply throwing certain ones away to maintain their rarity, thus allowing them to charge more for them.
I'm not sure why they would delete items since selling 2 items for 400g each is the same as selling 4 items for 200g each. If one has an eye for business, one of course diversifies; if you grind 2 of the above items first and then 2 different items that sell for the same amount, surely you get more money than by simply grinding one item all day long? That is, assuming your efforts are having such a significant impact on the economy anyways. I'm also doubtful that all farmers work together - for the same company - so if one farmer tried to corner the market, others would be trying to get their piece of the action sooner than you can say "deflation".
the AH would dictate that these items were staying very scarce when they were in fact known not to be. However, due to the RMT's monopolizing the creatures that dropped these items, and controlling their market value by restricting the number available and buying any that appeared at below-average price, they continually drove their prices up.
Hmm; at least in WoW it's actually normal players doing that, I used to make good money that way. They even have this addon called "auctioneer" which more or less automates the process, and I did it in SWG too because it was quite simply fun. But the point is, you can't drive prices up artificially; if items cost too much, people just won't buy. What you can do is buy items which n00bs put up too cheap, and sell them for their real price, but you can't really monopolise the market, because other normal players get those same items as drops and keep selling them (the bastards!), and there are always other items which people could use their money on instead.
I would argue that what you are seeing is a natural effect; more and more people reach max level, and have the ability to farm exponentially more effectively, while actually needing fewer and fewer items. In WoW, the few epics that are sold at AH go for insane prices; is this because of farmers? Nah, farmers can't even get any of those items since they mostly come from raid instances. They are sold mostly by guild banks when all guild members already have that item or better, and the reason they sell for so much is that most people who don't raid really don't have much left to buy, while at the same time generating massive amounts of gold, be it via instance runs, rep camping or whatever. So you actually have a 100% natural situation where demand is insanely high and supply is very low.
Frankly, my concern is more for future games than past
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you, most MMOs will be WoW clones for the next 5 years anyway.
Originally posted by Precusor Did i say gold buying offends me? DID I?
You said "Best way to deal with the farmers and botters is to just perma bann the buyers," so it's reasonable to conclude that you don't like their behavior. If you have no issue with gold-buying, then why do you want gold-buyers banned? Or are you just playing silly word games, where you don't like their behavior but are stridently arguing over my decision to use the word 'offends' instead of some other word like 'bothers', 'displeases', eyc.?
And your offense at my saying offense doesn't really answer the question; apparently you're a big EVE fan, enough to use an EVE character as your avatar here, so why are you supporting a company that supports and encourages gold-buying, and makes it a part of their game? Saying that gold buyers should be banned is odd when you openly support a game that has gold-buying explicitly allowed under the rules.
Originally posted by Shiymmas And I will stand by my statements that no matter what game, you are cheating if you buy currency.
No. If you play a game entirely by the rules laid down by the people making and running the game, you simply are not cheating, and it's absurd for people like you to claim it. If someone in a game like EVE buys GTCs and trades them for in-game cash, they are playing the game entirely by the rules, which is not cheating. There's no question about it, if you follow the rules of the game you're not cheating.
Originally posted by Shiymmas And I will stand by my statements that no matter what game, you are cheating if you buy currency.
No. If you play a game entirely by the rules laid down by the people making and running the game, you simply are not cheating, and it's absurd for people like you to claim it. If someone in a game like EVE buys GTCs and trades them for in-game cash, they are playing the game entirely by the rules, which is not cheating. There's no question about it, if you follow the rules of the game you're not cheating.
Having no experience or even the most basic knowledge of EVE, I assume they have an item shop, then? I'll take from my recent experience with Space Cowboy and completely agree if that's the case. I was merely killing my spare time w/SCO until my new system arrived (FedEx tracking has it at my house in a matter of hours, yay), and as such I didn't care to invest any real money in it. So, since I did end up wanting a few of the item shop items, I merely bought them with in-game currency. Of course, a game with an item shop also has players willing to spend incredible amounts of real money to get ahead. I witnessed this myself playing SCO, where I know of a player who has literally spent over $1,000 in-game on items. Can't call him a cheater, and honestly the stuff you get in that game isn't so advantageous that it inbalances anything, but my god. I don't care what kinda cash you have, $1k for a game is .
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Originally posted by Shiymmas I don't care what kinda cash you have, $1k for a game is .
And therein lies the bizarre nature of economics and the human experience. This is the core root of inflation, in any economic system. People flush with cash are perfectly willing to use it to influence their surroundings to their liking. While one person may only be willing to spend as much as $5 on an item, if you have plenty of cash and must have the same item you'll have no compulsion in outbidding that person. In fact, you may wish to simply trump the sale by appealing to the seller's innate greed by offering $20 to end the conversation. This is common practice in any market.
It's not surprising to me that some people would choose to spend a few thousand dollars on a hobby. If your hobby is playing a video game, and you do it 40+ hours a week (and that's almost a casual player) then you've transgressed from playing a game to leading a lifestyle. Look around you at the people who spend hundreds of dollars a month on their own lifestyle choices...whether it's cars, collectables, partying, or whatever. If you're "in it to win it", as so many people are in whatever they choose to do, it tends to follow that you'll do whatever you can to have an advantage. Spending $1000 (one time) to get a character in a MMOG past all the "boring" material and into the meat of a game is chump change compared to restoring a vintage vehicle, buying sports jerseys, womanizing, collecting cards or action figures or dolls, or any other lifestyle hobby.
Now, all that being said...we all play the way we want to play. Personally, I absolutely love playing with the mechanics provided inside a game. I like watching movies to see the story the director and screenwriter and actors have to tell. I read books to enjoy the author's imagination. Games, for me, are all about the "story" they have to tell...inside the mechanics, the script, and the presentation. But I recognize that as a personal choice, and I'm not nearly enough of a tyrant in life to demand that everyone else make the same choice. It doesn't bother me one tiny iota to stand next to another character in any MMOG who has more than I do knowing that he got it on ebay. That was his path in life, I'm following my own.
And that's what it all comes down to. I am satisfied with the choices I've made and I live with them. I don't envy the choices of another, of the advantages they bring to that person. Perhaps it's easier for me to do so because I have spare money to blow on a video game if I so chose to ebay my way to MMOG fortune and fame...it just doesn't interest me to do so. Perhaps for some of you, you don't have that option and you envy it.
I know plenty of you stand on principle, decrying the breaking of the rules. Fair enough, they are indeed breaking the rules. But welcome to life. Take a look at what your politicians do, what business owners do, what your boss does or teachers do. Life is not fair. I'm not defending it...just stating the fact. Injustice exists everywhere around you...people are dying every day for a lack of food, so gain some perspective about what's really "fair" in life. Justice is not blind.
All that being said, this practice will never end. There will always be people with spare time and a need for money, and people with spare money and a need for time. Those two people will always find one another...it's anthropological instinct, embedded in our genes. They will exchange their excess for their needs. You will be as successful at stopping this as you will stopping the tides coming in.
Originally posted by last_exile Should buying online gold/cash be banned?
Probably, I've never heard of a mentally stable individual enjoying a game that permitted it. (Ignored it, perhaps, not permitted it). They're ultimately just not fun to play. However, it really doesn't matter, the choice should still be left up to the devs whether they want to make the practice permissable or not. Players just need to learn to follow the rules for a given game, but that's what happens when you design products for spoiled little brats and pampered rich sh*ts with a silver spoon in their mouth - finding people who believe they're above the rules is not unusual.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
There's not nearly enough objectivity in this thread; I've only seen a few people who are willing to make a rational judgement based solely on fact. Maybe this will help:
Suppose you and I sit down to a game of Magic: The Gathering. You're on a budget, so you settle on a simple preconstructed theme deck, composed mostly of lower-tier cards. I, on the other hand, am CEO of Viacom and own every card ever made. I've hand-picked the best to make a deck o' death, and I slaughter you, even though you're a seasoned pro and I've never played before. Does this irritate you? I'm sure it does. Does it defy your personal code of game morality? Almost certainly. But is it wrong? Truly immoral? Absolutely not. I have more money, and I bought better cards. Tough luck, man.
And MMOs are no different. I'm not arguing buying gold doesn't defy the agreement I've made with the company; it sure does. But what we seem to be debating here is whether it's actually wrong, and make no mistake, it's not.
What an MMO boils down to is the sacrifice of real life for a fake one, and this includes real money. On the most basic level, you pay a monthly fee to see a fake sunrise, own a fake house, and get a fake sense of accomplishment and self-worth upon slaying a mighty demon. You didn't earn any of those things; you paid for them. If I buy gold, I'm really just enjoying an extension of that transaction; in addition to that house and sunrise, I'm buying for myself a fake sword, fake armor, and a fake sense of superiority when I slay you. And there's nothing wrong with that; I'm not speed hacking or giving myself infinite life. I'm taking only what I could have gotten anyway if I were willing to spend more time. I just happen to not be willing, and whatever code you may adhere to, mine says that as long as I'm paying real money for a fake experience, I might as well skip the boring parts. Terms of Service notwithstanding, it's my right.
It's sad but true that no matter how much this aggravates you, it's not wrong in any objective sense. You pay to get shinies and beat things up, and I pay more to do it faster and quit sooner, because that's how I roll. And I hope you enjoy calling me names over it, because that's about all you'll ever be able to do.
Originally posted by Shiymmas Having no experience or even the most basic knowledge of EVE, I assume they have an item shop, then?
No, what they do is allow you to buy a game time card ($20 for a month or something like that), then trade one or more GTCs for in-game money. As long as you're selling the gold for money that goes through CCP for a time card, it's allowed and GMs will even come in and abjudicate if someone tries to rip you off.
Originally posted by ainokeii Suppose you and I sit down to a game of Magic: The Gathering. You're on a budget, so you settle on a simple preconstructed theme deck, composed mostly of lower-tier cards. I, on the other hand, am CEO of Viacom and own every card ever made. I've hand-picked the best to make a deck o' death, and I slaughter you, even though you're a seasoned pro and I've never played before. Does this irritate you? I'm sure it does. Does it defy your personal code of game morality? Almost certainly. But is it wrong? Truly immoral? Absolutely not. I have more money, and I bought better cards. Tough luck, man.
Your point here is valid, but now look at it from my perspective: I am that guy with the low-level deck. I got what I could with what I had, and I wanted to have fun. So you beat me, good for you. Do you think I'm going to challenge you again, knowing you will ALWAYS beat me? I doubt it. Do you think I'm going to spend all day playing against you, knowing full well the odds are not in my favor? I doubt it. Reality is that if you know the odds are against you having fun playing a game, you're not going to play. MMOs lose customers all the time because real, honest players are fed up playing a game in which the cards are ALWAYS stacked up against you, and they are ALWAYS stacked in the favor of the guy who has more money.
Comments
And yes, I'd like a violin, please
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Ok Shi, thanks for the humor on the violin...cracked me up.
I did some research and there are so many games where you can buy in-game money.
Here are some games that I found.
Dungeons and Dragons Online, AO, FFXI, WoW, Lineage 2, EQ2, SWG, EvE, Matrix, CoH, CoV, DAoC and RF Online.
So, with that said, nothing is going to stop it.....these are just a few, I am sure there are plenty more.
PPL selling gil/gold in these games are horrible i mean common its a game Y would you buy fake money with real money? you cant get you money back its gone.... CHEATERS
my best friend is a cheater and it angers me cuz i know hes the reason im farming for hrs and hrs to catch up with him
Umm, no... that's one "loophole" you really don't want to get patched up, because of what it would lead to. Think about it; what are farmers doing differently than you and I? They kill mobs, loot mobs, sell items at AH, and transfer gold to other people. Are any of these things by themselves against the EULA? I think not. The point is, in order to allow legal action against gold farmers, you have to allow commercial companies in general to decide what, where and how their products can or can not be used, or face possible prison time. That's a can of worms you really don't want to mess with; I mean, you don't want to read and memorise 100+ pages of rules about accepted usage when you buy a hammer, do you? Or about where you are allowed to eat the meal you just bought from McDonalds and where you aren't? Eventually you forget, get sued and fined BIG. Tricking people this way would be good business.
It might be a legal loophole, but that does not mean they cant be banned.
Banned? Yup, in a second. You enter someones apartment and break all the rules of the owner... the owner has the right to kick you out the door. Say what you want, its not your apartment
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Why would you pay real money to go see a movie? Why pay real money to go see a football game?
Why? because you enjoy it. You cant get your money back, its gone.
I think your statement reflects more on hacking a game, not buying gold.
Buying Gold is like breaking the speed limit by a few miles an hour or using a california stop at a stop sign. Sometimes its overlooked, sometimes you get busted.
I would rather compare it to clubs not allowing people in wearing tennis shoes. Sure they can ask people to leave if they notice them breaking their house rule just like a game company can ban the people who break the EULA, but wearing tennis shoes is by itself not a crime, and I'm kinda reluctant to give bar owners the right to make new laws with possible prison sentences included, even if they only apply inside their own bar.
Buying gold from the company that makes the game is an economy killer.
If the money was made in game and sold on ebay is fine because it doesnt affect the economy.
If the Companies that sell Gold have made this with legal in Game mechanisms then the economy of the world (If there is one) is not destroyed at all.
I believe that MMo software developers and these companies are tied together and they share the profits of this sistuation.
So ban Software houses and not poor players like us.
buying online currency , The person who buys it is cheating and a very lame gamer.
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Why do you have an EVE character as your avatar if that's your attitude, since EVE is a game that embraces selling in-game currency for real cash? The only requirement to make selling gold legal is that you have to buy a time card from CCP, then sell it for ISK. If gold buying offends you so deeply, it would make sense not to support CCP and their open support of gold-selling.
Did i say gold buying offends me?
DID I?
Why would you pay real money to go see a movie? Why pay real money to go see a football game?
Why? because you enjoy it. You cant get your money back, its gone.
U must be one of the many CHEATERS
im not gonna play devils advocate with you but football games, movies is real life activity not a factious activity. so good luck with the cheating.
However, under what conditions do you think these people work for their "daily bread"?
I guess it beats the alternative since they choose to work there. Sweatshops > death by starvation, no?
It would seem that they would require a demand before providing the supply in a business that would require a substantial investment ahead of time.
It would seem that they could get at least some idea about the success of a game beforehand by looking at previews, ratings, beta test signups, presale amounts, etc. They would not send their entire army of farmers into the new game anyway, they would scale it up with the player base, so not much risk is involved. Even if none of this actually worked, the "grace period" would only ever involve the very first servers that go live.
The situation would be different because real players get what they need and move on, unless farming for a particular item to make money.
When one moves on, another moves in. And if players don't need money, farmers don't have customers, so it's probably a safe bet that everyone always needs money, so everyone would always be camping the same few farm spots anyway. They might of course sleep sometimes, but shouldn't you also sleep sometimes?
Also, I don't think making everything instanced is the solution.
Agreed, I also prefer the way WoW did it.
The problem is that RMT scales the economy across the board by bringing in more currency than any normal players would.
How do they do that? Shouldn't they be gaining items and money at the same rate as normal players, so the actual overall ratio of items vs. money in the economy doesn't change, no? They kill the same mobs as we do.
What they may do is accelerate the economy, since more of both items and money are entering the system; a server of 1000 people might have an economy equal to that of a server with 2000 people without farmers. But eventually a server of 1000 people grows to a server of 2000 people anyway so...
by their monopoly of certain items, they were simply throwing certain ones away to maintain their rarity, thus allowing them to charge more for them.
I'm not sure why they would delete items since selling 2 items for 400g each is the same as selling 4 items for 200g each. If one has an eye for business, one of course diversifies; if you grind 2 of the above items first and then 2 different items that sell for the same amount, surely you get more money than by simply grinding one item all day long? That is, assuming your efforts are having such a significant impact on the economy anyways. I'm also doubtful that all farmers work together - for the same company - so if one farmer tried to corner the market, others would be trying to get their piece of the action sooner than you can say "deflation".
the AH would dictate that these items were staying very scarce when they were in fact known not to be. However, due to the RMT's monopolizing the creatures that dropped these items, and controlling their market value by restricting the number available and buying any that appeared at below-average price, they continually drove their prices up.
Hmm; at least in WoW it's actually normal players doing that, I used to make good money that way. They even have this addon called "auctioneer" which more or less automates the process, and I did it in SWG too because it was quite simply fun. But the point is, you can't drive prices up artificially; if items cost too much, people just won't buy. What you can do is buy items which n00bs put up too cheap, and sell them for their real price, but you can't really monopolise the market, because other normal players get those same items as drops and keep selling them (the bastards!), and there are always other items which people could use their money on instead.
I would argue that what you are seeing is a natural effect; more and more people reach max level, and have the ability to farm exponentially more effectively, while actually needing fewer and fewer items. In WoW, the few epics that are sold at AH go for insane prices; is this because of farmers? Nah, farmers can't even get any of those items since they mostly come from raid instances. They are sold mostly by guild banks when all guild members already have that item or better, and the reason they sell for so much is that most people who don't raid really don't have much left to buy, while at the same time generating massive amounts of gold, be it via instance runs, rep camping or whatever. So you actually have a 100% natural situation where demand is insanely high and supply is very low.
Frankly, my concern is more for future games than past
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you, most MMOs will be WoW clones for the next 5 years anyway.
You said "Best way to deal with the farmers and botters is to just perma bann the buyers," so it's reasonable to conclude that you don't like their behavior. If you have no issue with gold-buying, then why do you want gold-buyers banned? Or are you just playing silly word games, where you don't like their behavior but are stridently arguing over my decision to use the word 'offends' instead of some other word like 'bothers', 'displeases', eyc.?
And your offense at my saying offense doesn't really answer the question; apparently you're a big EVE fan, enough to use an EVE character as your avatar here, so why are you supporting a company that supports and encourages gold-buying, and makes it a part of their game? Saying that gold buyers should be banned is odd when you openly support a game that has gold-buying explicitly allowed under the rules.
No. If you play a game entirely by the rules laid down by the people making and running the game, you simply are not cheating, and it's absurd for people like you to claim it. If someone in a game like EVE buys GTCs and trades them for in-game cash, they are playing the game entirely by the rules, which is not cheating. There's no question about it, if you follow the rules of the game you're not cheating.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Which FF Character Are You?
And therein lies the bizarre nature of economics and the human experience. This is the core root of inflation, in any economic system. People flush with cash are perfectly willing to use it to influence their surroundings to their liking. While one person may only be willing to spend as much as $5 on an item, if you have plenty of cash and must have the same item you'll have no compulsion in outbidding that person. In fact, you may wish to simply trump the sale by appealing to the seller's innate greed by offering $20 to end the conversation. This is common practice in any market.
It's not surprising to me that some people would choose to spend a few thousand dollars on a hobby. If your hobby is playing a video game, and you do it 40+ hours a week (and that's almost a casual player) then you've transgressed from playing a game to leading a lifestyle. Look around you at the people who spend hundreds of dollars a month on their own lifestyle choices...whether it's cars, collectables, partying, or whatever. If you're "in it to win it", as so many people are in whatever they choose to do, it tends to follow that you'll do whatever you can to have an advantage. Spending $1000 (one time) to get a character in a MMOG past all the "boring" material and into the meat of a game is chump change compared to restoring a vintage vehicle, buying sports jerseys, womanizing, collecting cards or action figures or dolls, or any other lifestyle hobby.
Now, all that being said...we all play the way we want to play. Personally, I absolutely love playing with the mechanics provided inside a game. I like watching movies to see the story the director and screenwriter and actors have to tell. I read books to enjoy the author's imagination. Games, for me, are all about the "story" they have to tell...inside the mechanics, the script, and the presentation. But I recognize that as a personal choice, and I'm not nearly enough of a tyrant in life to demand that everyone else make the same choice. It doesn't bother me one tiny iota to stand next to another character in any MMOG who has more than I do knowing that he got it on ebay. That was his path in life, I'm following my own.
And that's what it all comes down to. I am satisfied with the choices I've made and I live with them. I don't envy the choices of another, of the advantages they bring to that person. Perhaps it's easier for me to do so because I have spare money to blow on a video game if I so chose to ebay my way to MMOG fortune and fame...it just doesn't interest me to do so. Perhaps for some of you, you don't have that option and you envy it.
I know plenty of you stand on principle, decrying the breaking of the rules. Fair enough, they are indeed breaking the rules. But welcome to life. Take a look at what your politicians do, what business owners do, what your boss does or teachers do. Life is not fair. I'm not defending it...just stating the fact. Injustice exists everywhere around you...people are dying every day for a lack of food, so gain some perspective about what's really "fair" in life. Justice is not blind.
All that being said, this practice will never end. There will always be people with spare time and a need for money, and people with spare money and a need for time. Those two people will always find one another...it's anthropological instinct, embedded in our genes. They will exchange their excess for their needs. You will be as successful at stopping this as you will stopping the tides coming in.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
There's not nearly enough objectivity in this thread; I've only seen a few people who are willing to make a rational judgement based solely on fact. Maybe this will help:
Suppose you and I sit down to a game of Magic: The Gathering. You're on a budget, so you settle on a simple preconstructed theme deck, composed mostly of lower-tier cards. I, on the other hand, am CEO of Viacom and own every card ever made. I've hand-picked the best to make a deck o' death, and I slaughter you, even though you're a seasoned pro and I've never played before. Does this irritate you? I'm sure it does. Does it defy your personal code of game morality? Almost certainly. But is it wrong? Truly immoral? Absolutely not. I have more money, and I bought better cards. Tough luck, man.
And MMOs are no different. I'm not arguing buying gold doesn't defy the agreement I've made with the company; it sure does. But what we seem to be debating here is whether it's actually wrong, and make no mistake, it's not.
What an MMO boils down to is the sacrifice of real life for a fake one, and this includes real money. On the most basic level, you pay a monthly fee to see a fake sunrise, own a fake house, and get a fake sense of accomplishment and self-worth upon slaying a mighty demon. You didn't earn any of those things; you paid for them. If I buy gold, I'm really just enjoying an extension of that transaction; in addition to that house and sunrise, I'm buying for myself a fake sword, fake armor, and a fake sense of superiority when I slay you. And there's nothing wrong with that; I'm not speed hacking or giving myself infinite life. I'm taking only what I could have gotten anyway if I were willing to spend more time. I just happen to not be willing, and whatever code you may adhere to, mine says that as long as I'm paying real money for a fake experience, I might as well skip the boring parts. Terms of Service notwithstanding, it's my right.
It's sad but true that no matter how much this aggravates you, it's not wrong in any objective sense. You pay to get shinies and beat things up, and I pay more to do it faster and quit sooner, because that's how I roll. And I hope you enjoy calling me names over it, because that's about all you'll ever be able to do.
No, what they do is allow you to buy a game time card ($20 for a month or something like that), then trade one or more GTCs for in-game money. As long as you're selling the gold for money that goes through CCP for a time card, it's allowed and GMs will even come in and abjudicate if someone tries to rip you off.
Your point here is valid, but now look at it from my perspective: I am that guy with the low-level deck. I got what I could with what I had, and I wanted to have fun. So you beat me, good for you. Do you think I'm going to challenge you again, knowing you will ALWAYS beat me? I doubt it. Do you think I'm going to spend all day playing against you, knowing full well the odds are not in my favor? I doubt it. Reality is that if you know the odds are against you having fun playing a game, you're not going to play. MMOs lose customers all the time because real, honest players are fed up playing a game in which the cards are ALWAYS stacked up against you, and they are ALWAYS stacked in the favor of the guy who has more money.