Originally posted by Xaldor PvP is great....PvP is ok....PvP is horrible....The death penalty is great....the death penalty is ok....the death penalty is horrible. I think we know where I am goin with this. Yes it is an appallingly (did I spell that right?) simple example of opinions, but would'nt any rational adult agree that these statements ALL have some merit. Notice I didn't say they were true, because in my opinion, one can not prove or disprove these statements. Correct?....Xaldor
Well death penalty and pvp are 2 completely different things. Weather the death penalty is good or bad is a question to which there is no real answer. So in that sense it can be claimed to be just opinion, moreso because noone could ever prove one way or the other so that statement cant be contradicted rather than that saying "something is just opinion" has any profound meaning.
Its easy to say the same thing about pvp and claim its relevant to my argument. But it has nothing to do with the argument. The argument is dealing with weather people would like it or not. Just like talking about what makes someone like the taste of chocolate, or sex, or anything else. People don't have control over the way these things taste, nor do they have complete control over how they feel in a situation.
Just because someone can answer whatever they want when asked if they like something doesn't mean they have control over it. And if they don't have control over it somehting else does and that thing can be understood. Opinion has nothing to do with it.
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Originally posted by BKOOL Thank you Xaldor for putting an end to the nonsence. Now we can only hope that people will understand that it is useless to argue about such an opinionated question.
You and Xaldor, despite your image, are more mature then average folks that write here.
I am almost as immature as those arguers are and by writing it plainly here I show a certain lack of maturity as well!
Basically, Kriminal stuff on PvP is like saying: A wedding need Champagne to be great! *shrug*, Champagne is not needed, it is great and many will appreciated it, but some folks dont like it and will not drink it. Most importantly, a wedding can be a complete success and be the best wedding ever without having any Champagne.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well death penalty and pvp are 2 completely different things. Weather the death penalty is good or bad is a question to which there is no real answer. So in that sense it can be claimed to be just opinion, moreso because noone could ever prove one way or the other so that statement cant be contradicted rather than that saying "something is just opinion" has any profound meaning.
Its easy to say the same thing about pvp and claim its relevant to my argument. But it has nothing to do with the argument. The argument is dealing with weather people would like it or not. Just like talking about what makes someone like the taste of chocolate, or sex, or anything else. People don't have control over the way these things taste, nor do they have complete control over how they feel in a situation.
Just because someone can answer whatever they want when asked if they like something doesn't mean they have control over it. And if they don't have control over it somehting else does and that thing can be understood. Opinion has nothing to do with it.
Kriminal99,
I respect your conviction enormously...and no I am not trying to be sarcastic. PvP and the death penalty are indeed 2 different subjects, however I'm sure that you understand that I was just trying to prove a point using an analogy. Analogies are used everyday in debates, court proceedings, and your average every day argument between people. I don't want to be nit picky, but you used an analogy in the post above...i.e. sex and chocolate...But like I said earlier I do respect the majority of your posts, for they seem to be well thought out, and are definately not lacking conviction....Xaldor
I respect your conviction enormously...and no I am not trying to be sarcastic. PvP and the death penalty are indeed 2 different subjects, however I'm sure that you understand that I was just trying to prove a point using an analogy. Analogies are used everyday in debates, court proceedings, and your average every day argument between people. I don't want to be nit picky, but you used an analogy in the post above...i.e. sex and chocolate...But like I said earlier I do respect the majority of your posts, for they seem to be well thought out, and are definately not lacking conviction....Xaldor
Well yeah I did use an analogy I suppose. The problem with analogies is you can make people see a relation between two other things and then use the feeling of realization to try and blanket your idea too. But that doesn't mean its necessarily right... So was I trying to do that I don't know maybe I was. Or maybe there really is a direct connection between my analogy and what I was saying. Maybe some careful thought is in order to be able to determine when analogies are legitimate or not...
I have to say that analogies are probably the number one reason for degredation of arguments in all the mentioned things. When people see that others use this analogy trick to bypass logic it makes them fear that noone even cares what the truth is and they get angry from this fear. I know thats the number one thing that makes me and many others I have spoken too mad in arguments.
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So was I trying to do that I don't know maybe I was. Or maybe there really is a direct connection between my analogy and what I was saying. Maybe some careful thought is in order to be able to determine when analogies are legitimate or not...
I would argue that validating analogies is just as ludicrous as trying to validate ones opinion. Therefor it is equally ludicrous to say that PvP is an essential ingredient for perpetual "funness" in an MMORPG...In my opinion one can never attain a perpetual feeling from a video game due to a number of variables such as repetition, changes in technology, and new and even more exciting games yet to even be imagined by you or me....Xaldor
Changes in technology dont mean jack, prettier graphics, same game. Thats what they've been doing so far.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by Xaldor I would argue that validating analogies is just as ludicrous as trying to validate ones opinion.
I would argue against you
Analogies are formation of logic structures in plain English (could be another language, but then I wouldn't understand your analogy because I don't speak any other language fluently). Instead of using English, I could use Set Theory with logic. Such as:
Mammals
Primates
Humans
C implies B because C is a subset of B B implies A because B is a subest of A but, A does not imply B and B does not imply C
With the argument with PvE and PvP, we are being told by Feedtherich that PvE is a subset of PvP and therefore liking PvE implies that you like PvP. By showing an analogy that PvE is not a subest of PvP, his implications are not logical.
Changes in technology don't mean jack? Ok tell that to the guy who invented the wheel. Please, I know that you are intelligent enough to know that changes in technology have had perhaps the most profound effect on humankind in the last... I don't know how many years. Changes in technology are the reason why we are even able to play these games in the first place. I think that comment may have been a bit short sighted....Xaldor
With the argument with PvE and PvP, we are being told by Feedtherich that PvE is a subset of PvP and therefore liking PvE implies that you like PvP. By showing an analogy that PvE is not a subest of PvP, his implications are not logical.
I was not reffering to the argument btwn PvP and PvE. I was merely trying to support my statement in an earlier post that the death penalty and PvP are analogous when referring to ones opinions on these subjects.
Originally posted by Xaldor I was not reffering to the argument btwn PvP and PvE.
You made a broad statement that trying to validate analogies is ludicrous. You didn't state that trying to validate the analogy of PvP vs a death penalty is ludicrous. If you did, I would have agreed with you.
Originally posted by Xaldor Changes in technology don't mean jack? Ok tell that to the guy who invented the wheel. Please, I know that you are intelligent enough to know that changes in technology have had perhaps the most profound effect on humankind in the last... I don't know how many years. Changes in technology are the reason why we are even able to play these games in the first place. I think that comment may have been a bit short sighted....Xaldor
That was a pretty ignorant comment, either you lack intelligence and didnt know I was talking about the MMRPG industry thus far, (I didnt know wheels had graphics) or you were using it as some excuse for sarcasm.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Thank you for correcting me. I agree that I should have been more specific....by the way are you a lawyer? JK....anyway the point of my original statement on this thread was to seperate opinion from fact. In order to prove something as being fact one must conduct an experiment or series of experiments to support their hypothesis. I belive that this has already been accomplished with regards to PvP in MMORPG's. Some MMORPG's have it, some don't, and some use PvP as sort of a sidenote but it's not really a integral part of the game. Accepting this as fact, and then realizing that each of these types of games all have a pretty significant following, one can then conclude that the people that play these respective games are playing them based on their opinion of which game will be the most fun to them....Xaldor
This is slightly off topic possibly, but it kinda annoys me that Kriminal keeps saying you can equate a complex emotional experience, like PKing to the fact that chocolate tastes nice.
Studies have been doen on why chocolate and candy taste nice. The tongue has different taste receptors, some of which are designed to detect things like sweetness, and give a good feeling, so that we eat enough calories to live, there are a larger percent of these on the tongues of younger children, as it is an imperative that they get lots of easy to absorb calories. As one grows older the concentration of taste receptors for sweetness decreases as it becomes less important to get heaps of calories to help growth, we do however get more receptors that pick up fattiness in our food as it becomes more important to have easily storable food in case of long winters, which is why a treat for an adult might be more likely to be chocolate or cheesecake or chips, whereas it is more often children who enjoy eating sugar till they are sick.
This is science, this can be measured, studies have been done in this area. It does not mean that everyones taste buds are the same, but on average, in the middle of the statistical curve, these things are true.
I am not sure how kriminal can keep linking such a basic, chemical reaction in the body, to such a subjective and emotional subject as PvP.
I do agree with one thing from Kriminals original post, that interaction with other humans is nescessary in MMORPGs and it is other people that make them fun. However he seemed to believe that any interaction other than PvP fighting equaled 'socialising' and could be done just as well in a chat room which seemed ludicrous. I can get my gambling fix fulfilled by just grouping with strangers. I played EQ for a few years, as a cleric and druid, both easy to find groups for just by shouting 'Cleric LFG'. I sometimes got a good group, and made lots of exp in a short time and had a laugh or whatever, or sometimes a bad group, or maybe one bad member and you might get killed, with your corpse stuck in the depths of a dungeon, not good but it happens. That was an element of risk, it changed every time, and if i did a good job and people complimented me for healing them well it felt good. And I never had to fight another human being.
This illustrates my original point perfectly....Thus Far....we have no idea what will be coming in the future...i.e graphics...or new gameplay elements that have not yet been introduced. Therefore no game can be perpetually fun, no matter what you put in it, cause there wil always be something newer bigger and better coming in the future....Xakdor
I don't see why all these game companies feel the need to either force pvp down our throats or deny it completely. The ideal game would be a little more realistic than that.
For instance, I really don't want to have to worry about being attacked by every other player in the game all the time. But sometimes, a guy needs to get what's coming to him.
PVP needs to be present in that I need to be able to whack you if you need to be whacked. But at the same time, we need some kind of rule enforcement to keep griefers in check.
If you guys want to see PVP implemented properly, go check out DragonRealms. It's text based, but it's a great game. In DR, you can attack any other person in the game any time you want. But there are very swift consequences if you are abusive to other players.
I'd also like to say that I agree that PVP is neccessary for MMORPG games. No matter what any of us individually think, the fact of the matter is that this thread is on it's 5th page. So obviously there are people on both sides. "FUN" is when the game is making money for the developers. If that's not happening, it won't be fun for very long. So in the intrest of growing the population, PVP needs to be implemented in some fashion so as to not alienate a large portion of the player base.
Having said that, Darktide was and always will be a joke. I will never EVER spend money to entertain a person who goes newbie hunting (or rather, slaying an entire town) just because he can. I can't say that model won't ever work (though I do believe that), but I can tell you I definitely won't pay to be part of it.
I also am not a fan of PVP "zones". This is just an extention of darktide, except that it has the added bonus of reducing the value of expensive content, since some players won't ever go there. In the enforcement/consequences model, if someone decides to kill someone for no reason, anyone present could intervene on behalf of the injured player. Logs would indicate what (if anything) was said, who struck whom first, and the person who is an idiot would probably get killed by players in addition to being locked out of the game temporarily (or whatever sanction is imposed) by the staff.
Whether PVP is fun or not is a useless discussion. Enough people want it that is has to be in place. But no one wants anarchy, and so far that's all the game co.s give us.
Originally posted by dracx Whether PVP is fun or not is a useless discussion. Enough people want it that is has to be in place. But no one wants anarchy, and so far that's all the game co.s give us.
Bravo...Anyone that has had any economic classes, whether in college or high school, knows the concept of supply and demand. Setting my personal opinions regarding PvP aside, I believe that if Kriminal99 is indeed correct, he will be proven so not by logical premisies that lead to a conclusion, but rather by the gaming market....Xaldor....great post Dracx.
Originally posted by Xaldor Bravo...Anyone that has had any economic classes, whether in college or high school, knows the concept of supply and demand. Setting my personal opinions regarding PvP aside, I believe that if Kriminal99 is indeed correct, he will be proven so not by logical premisies that lead to a conclusion, but rather by the gaming market....Xaldor....great post Dracx.
lol economics... whats behind the demand though... How do you think the companies that succeed figure out what might work before they do it? Just completely randomly? oO More likely they have stubborn sob's like me there figuring the stuff out. Economic truths require logical thinking as well, theres always going to be people that don't want to hear what an economist has to say because they don't like it... (sometimes maybe the politicians in charge for example)
The guy you quoted basically says that the only reasoning that is valuable is just to follow instinct and do whatever feels good. Where would we be if everyone followed that...
Originally posted by Xaldor
I would argue that validating analogies is just as ludicrous as trying to validate ones opinion. Therefor it is equally ludicrous to say that PvP is an essential ingredient for perpetual "funness" in an MMORPG...In my opinion one can never attain a perpetual feeling from a video game due to a number of variables such as repetition, changes in technology, and new and even more exciting games yet to even be imagined by you or me....Xaldor
Nah they are definitely sometimes legitimate and sometimes not... MMORPGS can be changed and updated as time goes by, just not fast enough as they are gotten bored of to slow them down (without pvp that is)....
Originally posted by Alient I would argue against you
Analogies are formation of logic structures in plain English (could be another language, but then I wouldn't understand your analogy because I don't speak any other language fluently). Instead of using English, I could use Set Theory with logic. Such as:
Mammals Primates Humans C implies B because C is a subset of B B implies A because B is a subest of A but, A does not imply B and B does not imply C
With the argument with PvE and PvP, we are being told by Feedtherich that PvE is a subset of PvP and therefore liking PvE implies that you like PvP. By showing an analogy that PvE is not a subest of PvP, his implications are not logical.
No actually, for the purposes of liking PVE and PVP are EXACTLY the same thing not subsets or anything else. That is what both I and feedtherich are saying.
There is only one feeling that makes both PVP and PVE consistently fun and thats a feeling of achievment, self-worth, self-respect, respect from others, whatever (talking about the feeling behind this word call it what you will). This feeling is common to both types of gameplay. That is what about each makes them fun, so if you say you do no like them you are really saying you don't like that feeling (which noone would cause its a good feeling), and if you don't like the feeling then you don't like either one.
Both CAN also cause anger (pvp in the past has been more likely too) and pvp can sometimes cause guilt but these are not necessary to either PVP or PVE. So therefore when you talk about all forms of pvp these emotions dissapear. Thats what people don't realize.
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Sure, I admit I have hardly any experience with PvP, and while none of it has ever made me want to repeat the experience I will happily agree that my experience is limited.
When I play an MMORPG I do not go all out for lvling, I do not collect hugely powerful gear, I spend the time having fun, I have gotten some characters to a moderately high level but I just don't have the motivation to become really powerful, I would rather explore different characters than hone one to perfection. Also, most of the time even watching other players die at the hands of Mobs makes me feel kinda sorry for them, and I will heal them if I am nearby and am able.
I am a 'carebear' can you guys who keep going on that there are so many different types of PvP give me some examples of a type that you think I, as a carebear, could enjoy. Or do people like me, and there are other people like me in the world, just not count.
Why do we need another thread to have another pointless debate over nothing ?There is another thread right above if you feel need to continue this arguement go there.
The original poster's thread has been hijeacked by the trolls yet again with of course kriminal99 leading it.
Kriminal 75% of voters have asked you to shut up over this or are you too stubborn to get the hint.
Originally posted by Kriminal99 No actually, for the purposes of liking PVE and PVP are EXACTLY the same thing not subsets or anything else. That is what both I and feedtherich are saying. There is only one feeling that makes both PVP and PVE consistently fun and thats a feeling of achievment, self-worth, self-respect, respect from others, whatever (talking about the feeling behind this word call it what you will). This feeling is common to both types of gameplay.
People have already told you that PvP does not give them that feeling. You are calling them all liars. Some people like dogs and not cats. Some people like cats and not dogs. Some people like both and some don't like either. This feeling of caring for an animal, dog or cat, is basically the same. But, I'm not going to tell someone that if you like a dog, that you should like a cat too. Your logic still doesn't make sense.
And with "the purposes of liking PVE and PVP are EXACTLY the same thing," then how can you argue that a MMORPG needs PvP to be continually fun? Why not replace PvP with PvE since they are EXACTLY the same thing? Because you know they aren't.
I humbly think PvP need to be limited to some zones(like DAoC).
I think that the PvP zones should have no motivation for any player that dont intend to play on the PvP side of the game(unlike any game I know off). So PvP drops are only good for PvP zones and completely useless(or almost useless) outside of those zones.
If someone PK me, I will do ANYTHING I can, against any laws, including pure raw harassment to punish him, he have no right to come and PK me when I was PvE playing, or to kick me out or whatever, this is not griefing, this is a territorial limit and a pure blunt invasion on my fun. If I can make him go LD and kill him everytime he log back, I will! But, I will not initiate conflict with anyone, someone that initiate it with me against my will deserve EVERY worst actions I can think off, period.
If I camp a mob before you come, no matter if you are more or less uber then me, you have absolutely no right to hinder my fun and come messing around, go away I was there first! Give me your name and I will make a list if you want, but that is about it. I am stronger and deserve the place dont ring any logic in a PvE zone.
Yes, I will start /feedback, /report, /petition, /tell ()*&%^*&^ and ask my guild for support on anyone that PK me while I was walking peacefully and minding my own business in a PvE working mind, so if the PvE items drop in a PvP zone, we are in a heavy conflict that will be resolve with banning me from the game or the peoples leaving me alone, nothing short of that will be acceptable. If I can summon a player(some MUD offer this), I would go in the fartest place possible and then summon those that PK me, and I will do this endlessly, until they log. :P
Unless I agree to play the PvP game, which is very unlikely, thereby, the PvP zones need to have only PvP incitations, because if they drop PvE uber items, I will go farm them and I will be still PvE playing and anyone attacking me will have to face a very angry reaction.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Same here, if I drop something when a mob kills me, and some other player steals my shit, I will ask for it back. If they do not give it back I will attack them every time I see them for the remainder of the game until they pay me back. I almost want to thank them for giving me another purpose in the game and making it more interesting. This is one reason I like PVP. I don't wanna go around killing people in game any more than I do in real life. But if you wrong me in the game I will do my best to ruin your experience until you make it right. Fun fun!
PVP and Non PVP are as different as chess and solitaire.
There are those who get thrills from competition. From rising up to the challenge. Knowing that you defeated another human opponent in a fair fight. Knowing that he is fully aware of the loss, and will most likely plot his revenge. Or losing in a fair fight, then working our way back, and claiming your revenge.
Then there are those who keep away from competition. The game is a personal challenge. Lets not keep score. We are all winners, if we work together. Knowing that you overcame challenges, but did not step on anyones toes, make anyone feel bad in the process. Everyone walks away happy.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
Comments
Well death penalty and pvp are 2 completely different things. Weather the death penalty is good or bad is a question to which there is no real answer. So in that sense it can be claimed to be just opinion, moreso because noone could ever prove one way or the other so that statement cant be contradicted rather than that saying "something is just opinion" has any profound meaning.
Its easy to say the same thing about pvp and claim its relevant to my argument. But it has nothing to do with the argument. The argument is dealing with weather people would like it or not. Just like talking about what makes someone like the taste of chocolate, or sex, or anything else. People don't have control over the way these things taste, nor do they have complete control over how they feel in a situation.
Just because someone can answer whatever they want when asked if they like something doesn't mean they have control over it. And if they don't have control over it somehting else does and that thing can be understood. Opinion has nothing to do with it.
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You and Xaldor, despite your image, are more mature then average folks that write here.
I am almost as immature as those arguers are and by writing it plainly here I show a certain lack of maturity as well!
Basically, Kriminal stuff on PvP is like saying: A wedding need Champagne to be great! *shrug*, Champagne is not needed, it is great and many will appreciated it, but some folks dont like it and will not drink it. Most importantly, a wedding can be a complete success and be the best wedding ever without having any Champagne.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well death penalty and pvp are 2 completely different things. Weather the death penalty is good or bad is a question to which there is no real answer. So in that sense it can be claimed to be just opinion, moreso because noone could ever prove one way or the other so that statement cant be contradicted rather than that saying "something is just opinion" has any profound meaning.
Its easy to say the same thing about pvp and claim its relevant to my argument. But it has nothing to do with the argument. The argument is dealing with weather people would like it or not. Just like talking about what makes someone like the taste of chocolate, or sex, or anything else. People don't have control over the way these things taste, nor do they have complete control over how they feel in a situation.
Just because someone can answer whatever they want when asked if they like something doesn't mean they have control over it. And if they don't have control over it somehting else does and that thing can be understood. Opinion has nothing to do with it.
Kriminal99,
I respect your conviction enormously...and no I am not trying to be sarcastic. PvP and the death penalty are indeed 2 different subjects, however I'm sure that you understand that I was just trying to prove a point using an analogy. Analogies are used everyday in debates, court proceedings, and your average every day argument between people. I don't want to be nit picky, but you used an analogy in the post above...i.e. sex and chocolate...But like I said earlier I do respect the majority of your posts, for they seem to be well thought out, and are definately not lacking conviction....Xaldor
Well yeah I did use an analogy I suppose. The problem with analogies is you can make people see a relation between two other things and then use the feeling of realization to try and blanket your idea too. But that doesn't mean its necessarily right... So was I trying to do that I don't know maybe I was. Or maybe there really is a direct connection between my analogy and what I was saying. Maybe some careful thought is in order to be able to determine when analogies are legitimate or not...
I have to say that analogies are probably the number one reason for degredation of arguments in all the mentioned things. When people see that others use this analogy trick to bypass logic it makes them fear that noone even cares what the truth is and they get angry from this fear. I know thats the number one thing that makes me and many others I have spoken too mad in arguments.
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So was I trying to do that I don't know maybe I was. Or maybe there really is a direct connection between my analogy and what I was saying. Maybe some careful thought is in order to be able to determine when analogies are legitimate or not...
I would argue that validating analogies is just as ludicrous as trying to validate ones opinion. Therefor it is equally ludicrous to say that PvP is an essential ingredient for perpetual "funness" in an MMORPG...In my opinion one can never attain a perpetual feeling from a video game due to a number of variables such as repetition, changes in technology, and new and even more exciting games yet to even be imagined by you or me....Xaldor
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Analogies are formation of logic structures in plain English (could be another language, but then I wouldn't understand your analogy because I don't speak any other language fluently). Instead of using English, I could use Set Theory with logic. Such as:
- Mammals
- Primates
- Humans
C implies B because C is a subset of BB implies A because B is a subest of A
but,
A does not imply B and B does not imply C
With the argument with PvE and PvP, we are being told by Feedtherich that PvE is a subset of PvP and therefore liking PvE implies that you like PvP. By showing an analogy that PvE is not a subest of PvP, his implications are not logical.
Changes in technology don't mean jack? Ok tell that to the guy who invented the wheel. Please, I know that you are intelligent enough to know that changes in technology have had perhaps the most profound effect on humankind in the last... I don't know how many years. Changes in technology are the reason why we are even able to play these games in the first place. I think that comment may have been a bit short sighted....Xaldor
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Alient,
Thank you for correcting me. I agree that I should have been more specific....by the way are you a lawyer? JK....anyway the point of my original statement on this thread was to seperate opinion from fact. In order to prove something as being fact one must conduct an experiment or series of experiments to support their hypothesis. I belive that this has already been accomplished with regards to PvP in MMORPG's. Some MMORPG's have it, some don't, and some use PvP as sort of a sidenote but it's not really a integral part of the game. Accepting this as fact, and then realizing that each of these types of games all have a pretty significant following, one can then conclude that the people that play these respective games are playing them based on their opinion of which game will be the most fun to them....Xaldor
This is slightly off topic possibly, but it kinda annoys me that Kriminal keeps saying you can equate a complex emotional experience, like PKing to the fact that chocolate tastes nice.
Studies have been doen on why chocolate and candy taste nice. The tongue has different taste receptors, some of which are designed to detect things like sweetness, and give a good feeling, so that we eat enough calories to live, there are a larger percent of these on the tongues of younger children, as it is an imperative that they get lots of easy to absorb calories. As one grows older the concentration of taste receptors for sweetness decreases as it becomes less important to get heaps of calories to help growth, we do however get more receptors that pick up fattiness in our food as it becomes more important to have easily storable food in case of long winters, which is why a treat for an adult might be more likely to be chocolate or cheesecake or chips, whereas it is more often children who enjoy eating sugar till they are sick.
This is science, this can be measured, studies have been done in this area. It does not mean that everyones taste buds are the same, but on average, in the middle of the statistical curve, these things are true.
I am not sure how kriminal can keep linking such a basic, chemical reaction in the body, to such a subjective and emotional subject as PvP.
I do agree with one thing from Kriminals original post, that interaction with other humans is nescessary in MMORPGs and it is other people that make them fun. However he seemed to believe that any interaction other than PvP fighting equaled 'socialising' and could be done just as well in a chat room which seemed ludicrous. I can get my gambling fix fulfilled by just grouping with strangers. I played EQ for a few years, as a cleric and druid, both easy to find groups for just by shouting 'Cleric LFG'. I sometimes got a good group, and made lots of exp in a short time and had a laugh or whatever, or sometimes a bad group, or maybe one bad member and you might get killed, with your corpse stuck in the depths of a dungeon, not good but it happens. That was an element of risk, it changed every time, and if i did a good job and people complimented me for healing them well it felt good. And I never had to fight another human being.
This illustrates my original point perfectly....Thus Far....we have no idea what will be coming in the future...i.e graphics...or new gameplay elements that have not yet been introduced. Therefore no game can be perpetually fun, no matter what you put in it, cause there wil always be something newer bigger and better coming in the future....Xakdor
I don't see why all these game companies feel the need to either force pvp down our throats or deny it completely. The ideal game would be a little more realistic than that.
For instance, I really don't want to have to worry about being attacked by every other player in the game all the time. But sometimes, a guy needs to get what's coming to him.
PVP needs to be present in that I need to be able to whack you if you need to be whacked. But at the same time, we need some kind of rule enforcement to keep griefers in check.
If you guys want to see PVP implemented properly, go check out DragonRealms. It's text based, but it's a great game. In DR, you can attack any other person in the game any time you want. But there are very swift consequences if you are abusive to other players.
In-game enforcement is THE ONLY WAY.
I'd also like to say that I agree that PVP is neccessary for MMORPG games. No matter what any of us individually think, the fact of the matter is that this thread is on it's 5th page. So obviously there are people on both sides. "FUN" is when the game is making money for the developers. If that's not happening, it won't be fun for very long. So in the intrest of growing the population, PVP needs to be implemented in some fashion so as to not alienate a large portion of the player base.
Having said that, Darktide was and always will be a joke. I will never EVER spend money to entertain a person who goes newbie hunting (or rather, slaying an entire town) just because he can. I can't say that model won't ever work (though I do believe that), but I can tell you I definitely won't pay to be part of it.
I also am not a fan of PVP "zones". This is just an extention of darktide, except that it has the added bonus of reducing the value of expensive content, since some players won't ever go there. In the enforcement/consequences model, if someone decides to kill someone for no reason, anyone present could intervene on behalf of the injured player. Logs would indicate what (if anything) was said, who struck whom first, and the person who is an idiot would probably get killed by players in addition to being locked out of the game temporarily (or whatever sanction is imposed) by the staff.
Whether PVP is fun or not is a useless discussion. Enough people want it that is has to be in place. But no one wants anarchy, and so far that's all the game co.s give us.
The guy you quoted basically says that the only reasoning that is valuable is just to follow instinct and do whatever feels good. Where would we be if everyone followed that...
I would argue that validating analogies is just as ludicrous as trying to validate ones opinion. Therefor it is equally ludicrous to say that PvP is an essential ingredient for perpetual "funness" in an MMORPG...In my opinion one can never attain a perpetual feeling from a video game due to a number of variables such as repetition, changes in technology, and new and even more exciting games yet to even be imagined by you or me....XaldorNah they are definitely sometimes legitimate and sometimes not... MMORPGS can be changed and updated as time goes by, just not fast enough as they are gotten bored of to slow them down (without pvp that is)....
No actually, for the purposes of liking PVE and PVP are EXACTLY the same thing not subsets or anything else. That is what both I and feedtherich are saying.
There is only one feeling that makes both PVP and PVE consistently fun and thats a feeling of achievment, self-worth, self-respect, respect from others, whatever (talking about the feeling behind this word call it what you will). This feeling is common to both types of gameplay. That is what about each makes them fun, so if you say you do no like them you are really saying you don't like that feeling (which noone would cause its a good feeling), and if you don't like the feeling then you don't like either one.
Both CAN also cause anger (pvp in the past has been more likely too) and pvp can sometimes cause guilt but these are not necessary to either PVP or PVE. So therefore when you talk about all forms of pvp these emotions dissapear. Thats what people don't realize.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Sure, I admit I have hardly any experience with PvP, and while none of it has ever made me want to repeat the experience I will happily agree that my experience is limited.
When I play an MMORPG I do not go all out for lvling, I do not collect hugely powerful gear, I spend the time having fun, I have gotten some characters to a moderately high level but I just don't have the motivation to become really powerful, I would rather explore different characters than hone one to perfection. Also, most of the time even watching other players die at the hands of Mobs makes me feel kinda sorry for them, and I will heal them if I am nearby and am able.
I am a 'carebear' can you guys who keep going on that there are so many different types of PvP give me some examples of a type that you think I, as a carebear, could enjoy. Or do people like me, and there are other people like me in the world, just not count.
Question -
Why do we need another thread to have another pointless debate over nothing ?There is another thread right above if you feel need to continue this arguement go there.
The original poster's thread has been hijeacked by the trolls yet again with of course kriminal99 leading it.
Kriminal 75% of voters have asked you to shut up over this or are you too stubborn to get the hint.
And with "the purposes of liking PVE and PVP are EXACTLY the same thing," then how can you argue that a MMORPG needs PvP to be continually fun? Why not replace PvP with PvE since they are EXACTLY the same thing? Because you know they aren't.
I humbly think PvP need to be limited to some zones(like DAoC).
I think that the PvP zones should have no motivation for any player that dont intend to play on the PvP side of the game(unlike any game I know off). So PvP drops are only good for PvP zones and completely useless(or almost useless) outside of those zones.
If someone PK me, I will do ANYTHING I can, against any laws, including pure raw harassment to punish him, he have no right to come and PK me when I was PvE playing, or to kick me out or whatever, this is not griefing, this is a territorial limit and a pure blunt invasion on my fun. If I can make him go LD and kill him everytime he log back, I will! But, I will not initiate conflict with anyone, someone that initiate it with me against my will deserve EVERY worst actions I can think off, period.
If I camp a mob before you come, no matter if you are more or less uber then me, you have absolutely no right to hinder my fun and come messing around, go away I was there first! Give me your name and I will make a list if you want, but that is about it. I am stronger and deserve the place dont ring any logic in a PvE zone.
Yes, I will start /feedback, /report, /petition, /tell ()*&%^*&^ and ask my guild for support on anyone that PK me while I was walking peacefully and minding my own business in a PvE working mind, so if the PvE items drop in a PvP zone, we are in a heavy conflict that will be resolve with banning me from the game or the peoples leaving me alone, nothing short of that will be acceptable. If I can summon a player(some MUD offer this), I would go in the fartest place possible and then summon those that PK me, and I will do this endlessly, until they log. :P
Unless I agree to play the PvP game, which is very unlikely, thereby, the PvP zones need to have only PvP incitations, because if they drop PvE uber items, I will go farm them and I will be still PvE playing and anyone attacking me will have to face a very angry reaction.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
PVP and Non PVP are as different as chess and solitaire.
There are those who get thrills from competition. From rising up to the challenge. Knowing that you defeated another human opponent in a fair fight. Knowing that he is fully aware of the loss, and will most likely plot his revenge. Or losing in a fair fight, then working our way back, and claiming your revenge.
Then there are those who keep away from competition. The game is a personal challenge. Lets not keep score. We are all winners, if we work together. Knowing that you overcame challenges, but did not step on anyones toes, make anyone feel bad in the process. Everyone walks away happy.
*Signature*The Pessimist says the cup is half empty. The Optimist says the cup is half full. The Pragmatist says the cup is half full of air. The Engineer says the cup is operating at 50% capacity. The Psychologist says the cup is your mother. The Punk Kid also says the cup is your mother. The Cricket Player says his cup is definately full. Everyone knows that Pamela Andersons cups are full. The Defendant says it was like that when he found it. Me, I just ask the waitress for a refill.
Bravo Geld
I couldn't have put it better myself