This is probly my only post when i'm not hating on someone or something.
Religeon is not a bad thing.
If people followed the Bible, or Qu'ran or whatever, then the world would be very peaceful. Society came out of organized religeon, and from that cultures developed. Religeon is basically a set of moral ground rules, and a way to keep people organized.
It is peoples own fault that these basic teachings have become so effing distorted over many years, but that dosen't make religeon a bad thing.
You can't say religeon is bad because if everyone was religeous; to some extent the world would be a better place.
whoever said if you folow the bible the world would be a peaceful place is a complete idiot! did you know in the bible if you cheat poeple should burn you on the stake?
Originally posted by evildead305 whoever said if you folow the bible the world would be a peaceful place is a complete idiot! did you know in the bible if you cheat poeple should burn you on the stake?
Where in the Bible did it say that?
EDIT; Even if it is in the Bible..which I seriously doubt, who is to say that a world without cheaters wouldn't be peaceful?
I hate all religion equally. Its the whole monkey see, monkey do aspect of it. People have kids, and teach their kids such things as religion AS FACTS, the kids grow up and teach their kids AS FACTS, the cycle goes on and on. Rarely do you see a person with a strong religious upbringing following another faith, even though there are many out there. They do as they are bred. Catholic kids grow up Catholics, Jewish kids grow up Jewish. Occasionally you get someone that thinks another form of worship makes more sense, or someone that thinks as I do that all religion is complete and utter bullshit, but this is a rare thing, I want to say %5 of the time for a rough estimate.
Originally posted by Infliction I hate all religion equally. Its the whole monkey see, monkey do aspect of it. People have kids, and teach their kids such things as religion AS FACTS, the kids grow up and teach their kids AS FACTS, the cycle goes on and on. Rarely do you see a person with a strong religious upbringing following another faith, even though there are many out there. They do as they are bred. Catholic kids grow up Catholics, Jewish kids grow up Jewish. Occasionally you get someone that thinks another form of worship makes more sense, or someone that thinks as I do that all religion is complete and utter bullshit, but this is a rare thing, I want to say %5 of the time for a rough estimate.
I don't think it has to do with raising your children to believe that your religion is fact. My religion, unfortunately, is the only connection I have to my past. In the United States my family (like most others) was forced to assimilate (AKA forget our native language, forget our culture, and our past), the only dirrect connection to my past people was that they were Catholics. So you could see how a family would want to hold onto that little bit of identity.
Now I'm no longer a practicing Catholic and I don't believe in much of the Catholic church. I also came to realize that I should identify with others who struggle the same struggle I do, so I guess I am an ex-Catholic. But the point being, many people identify with their religion because that is their only connection to their people.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Originally posted by evildead305 whoever said if you folow the bible the world would be a peaceful place is a complete idiot! did you know in the bible if you cheat poeple should burn you on the stake?
Please at least cite the biblical text if you are going to say stuff like that...anyway, I'm guessing that whatever you are refering to is in the old testment, where a lot more of the fire and brimstone stuff is present, in the Christian faith, anything that seems to conflict with the old testament that is present in the new testament, you are supposed to refer to the new testament, as it is somewhat of a "new" guide to life...but please, quote whatever passage you are refering to in order to give yourself some credibility...because I'm not familiar with your reference.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor I'm guessing that whatever you are refering to is in the old testment, where a lot more of the fire and brimstone stuff is present, in the Christian faith, anything that seems to conflict with the old testament that is present in the new testament, you are supposed to refer to the new testament, as it is somewhat of a "new" guide to life...
What I don't understand about the OT and NT issue is that: if God is omnipotent, why would he change his mind about what is right and wrong over the course of a few hundred years? Right and wrong should be pretty absolute in God's mind, so if God felt it was OK to kill thousands of innocents at Sodom and Gomorrah, why would he turn around and say "Love everyone, and turn the other cheek" in the New Testament. It makes no sense to me.
Originally posted by modjoe86 Originally posted by Draenor I'm guessing that whatever you are refering to is in the old testment, where a lot more of the fire and brimstone stuff is present, in the Christian faith, anything that seems to conflict with the old testament that is present in the new testament, you are supposed to refer to the new testament, as it is somewhat of a "new" guide to life...
What I don't understand about the OT and NT issue is that: if God is omnipotent, why would he change his mind about what is right and wrong over the course of a few hundred years? Right and wrong should be pretty absolute in God's mind, so if God felt it was OK to kill thousands of innocents at Sodom and Gomorrah, why would he turn around and say "Love everyone, and turn the other cheek" in the New Testament. It makes no sense to me. Because the people that changed it figured it was more convenient of course. Its much easier to convert people to a peaceful religion than with a threatening god.
Originally posted by Draenor I'm guessing that whatever you are refering to is in the old testment, where a lot more of the fire and brimstone stuff is present, in the Christian faith, anything that seems to conflict with the old testament that is present in the new testament, you are supposed to refer to the new testament, as it is somewhat of a "new" guide to life...
What I don't understand about the OT and NT issue is that: if God is omnipotent, why would he change his mind about what is right and wrong over the course of a few hundred years? Right and wrong should be pretty absolute in God's mind, so if God felt it was OK to kill thousands of innocents at Sodom and Gomorrah, why would he turn around and say "Love everyone, and turn the other cheek" in the New Testament. It makes no sense to me.
This is a long read, but wortwhile...I think it should clear up some of your questions.
I doubt that any Christian would deny the fact that God, being omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), could change His mind if He wished, but the question is: Does God ever change His mind?
Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5) so why would He ever need to change His mind?
To look at this properly we need to examine the subject of freewill.
Freewill
Recently I read that the concept of freewill in the Christian church was over rated implying that freewill was not the motivator of our faith. The article from a well known preacher implied that everything was God ordained and that He had our lives mapped out for us so that freewill ceased to be an important aspect of our walk with the Lord.
If you take that concept one step further you will accept that God has chosen us. Jesus said in Matthew 22:14 that For many are invited, but few are chosen. [NIV]. Therefore, according to that concept, some people are born to be saved and others are born to lead a life of sin and be damned.
That Calvanistic concept does not sit well with me.
Almost the entire Bible from Genesis to Jude anyway talks about freewill, our choice of whether we believe (have faith) that there is a God, the freewill to worship Him, the freewill to try and live a holy life. By the same rules, we also have the freewill to turn away from God, to mock Him, to spurn Him.
Scriptures abound in this area. The first example in the Bible about freewill being exercised is the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall. In Genesis 2:16-17 says:
And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die. [NIV]
In Genesis 3:6 it says:
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. [NIV]
Adam had exercised his freewill by refusing to accept Gods command and disobeyed Him by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Results, of course, were disastrous for mankind!
Further examples of man exercising freewill and directly opposing Gods wishes abound. In Genesis 4:6-10 we read the story of Cain and Abel:
Then the LORD said to Cain, Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it. Now Cain said to his brother Abel, Lets go out to the field. And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. Then the LORD said to Cain, Where is your brother Abel? I dont know, he replied. Am I my brothers keeper? The LORD said, What have you done? Listen! Your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground. [NIV]
So Cain killed Abel even though God warned him about sinning and then Cain stupidly tried to fool God by saying Am I my brothers keeper? As if God didnt know what had happened! Still, by allowing man freewill, God allowed Cain to go against Him and kill Abel.
By offering various rules of life or examples of how we should live (particularly the parables of Jesus) we can choose to live in Gods favour (by The Law as in the Old Testament or by Grace as in the New Testament) or we can choose to live outside of Gods favour. What are the Ten Commandments if not rules so that we may make a choice?
But why would God give us these choices? It would have been easier to have given us a loving dog-like devotion to Him. He could have commanded obedience we would have been forced to live by His rules for us in the same way we order the world in which we live. We could have been Gods cattle.
But God didnt want blind obedience, He wanted our love, to be our loving Father and for us to be His loving sons. But love does not live in a vacuum and for God to give us the opportunity to love Him, He had to also give us the opportunity to turn away from Him. If there are no choices then there is no choice and He had to give us the choice so that we had the opportunity to choose Him otherwise how could we be sons and not cattle? Would you want a robot for a son? Would you want unquestioning obedience? If there was no questioning then there could be no love and what father doesnt cherish the love of his son?
If God wanted children and not robots or domestic cattle then He had to give those children freewill, the choice to love or not to love.
Therefore I believe that the preacher who advocated that freewill was overrated was wrong. Too many people look at a verse and not at the book. The Bible is interrelated and it is dangerous to put your faith on one or two verses and not comprehend the whole.
Does God ever change His mind?
Let us return to the original proposition. Does God ever change His mind?
If God is not going to manipulate us, if He is going to offer us the opportunity to express our freewill, then He is at the mercy of that freewill. He can say to us I would like you to donate a certain sum of money for missionary work but if we choose to ignore that small still voice then God will get someone else to supply that need. Maybe you were His first choice but your own inaction had led God to find someone else.
Do you ever wonder how many times God had a task for you and you didnt listen carefully? Do you ever think of lost opportunities to help someone find the Lord? Have you ever thought that maybe you should speak to someone about Jesus and then failed to do so, only to find out later that someone else led that person to the Lord?
God must change His mind because He is dealing with self-centred mortals who often get so wrapped up in their own petty problems that they neglect to listen to God. Because of our inability to be led, God must keep on finding alternatives to our lack of action.
God knows us individually and will use us to the extent of our capabilities. We need to exercise our freewill so that we can be vessels which God uses.
Does God ever change His mind? If He does then it should be outlined in the Word. If we look at Genesis 6:6-7 we read:
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air for I am grieved that I have made them. [NIV]
So apparently God DID change His mind and that change of mind led to the Great Flood.
If we look at the story of the Golden Calf in Exodus 32 we read that God was so unhappy with his stiff necked people that, in verse10, the Lord said to Moses:
Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation. [NIV]
But Moses pleaded for his people and finally God said to Moses (v14):
Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.[NIV]
If we continue on with the story of the errant Israelites we find that God is still unhappy with them. In Exodus 33:3 God says:
Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way. [NIV]
This is extraordinary! God is saying that He might not be able to control Himself because of the attitude of the Israelites. This is exactly what we have been looking at. God is, in some ways, at our mercy. The freewill He has given us as the tool so that we can love Him as sons and daughters can also be turned against Him it is a two-edged sword. With gifts like freewill comes responsibility. One cannot flourish without the other.
Look whats happening in our schools today. We tell children that they have rights but be dont balance that with the knowledge that with those rights comes responsibility one cannot successfully live without the other. God has given us the right to our freewill, but we must temper that by being responsible.
Lets look at another Scripture where God has changed His mind. In 1 Samuel 15:35b it says:
And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel. [NIV]
Again, man has let down God and God grieved His original decision to make Saul king.
One of the most remarkable stories in the Bible can be found in the book of Jonah (Jonah 1:1-4):
The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me. But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD. Then the LORD sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship threatened to break up. [NIV]
With the ship threatened, Jonah told the crew to throw him overboard to appease God and to save them. This they reluctantly did and the raging sea grew calm (v15). Jonah, of course, was swallowed by a great fish and stayed there for three days and nights. Finally, God commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land (Jonah 2:10).
Now lets read from Jonah 3:1-4...
Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time: Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you. Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city a visit required three days. On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned. [NIV]
So Jonah finally obeyed the Lord and told the Ninevites that they had only 40 days before their huge city of more than 120,000 people would be overturned. Reading further from Jonah 3:5-10...
The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh: By the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish. When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. [NIV]
So the Ninevites repented of their evil ways and their violence and God, again, changed His mind!
Obviously, how we behave for good or for bad determines how God treats us. God adjusts His behaviour to us dependent on how we behave and what choices we make.
So our freewill allows us to go against Gods wishes and that makes God change His mind. Often He will keep on reminding us so that, if we do start to listen, we can finally obey Gods command. If we dont then God allows us that right to disobey and we are ultimately the losers.
Many people would have heard the story of the drunk who was captivated by the beautiful singing and staggered into a church and was saved, never to touch the demon drink again. I have often wondered just how many churches God led that drunk to before he finally took the hint and went inside. Was it a 100? 200?
God works to a plan part of which is outlined in Revelation but for that plan to come into effect many things must be done.
Gods Spreadsheet
God showed me that His plan is like a huge computer spreadsheet a spreadsheet as large as this planet. The first column is the present, and the last column is the culmination of Gods plan, but this spreadsheet works in reverse to other spreadsheets. Normally, you make a small correction to a cell in the first column you could call it the here and now and the ripple effect amplifies that correction until the whole spreadsheet is upgraded with new data invariably with a new conclusion.
However Gods spreadsheet works the other way. The first column the here and now is where all the action is and I can envision a huge turmoil in that column. The next column exhibits less turmoil, and the next even less. This abating ripple effect goes on until we get to the end where there are no changes taking place. The last column remains unchanged because that is Gods ultimate plan for us. That plan, outlined in Revelation, has not changed and never will.
Time is progressing from left to right towards the end of Gods spreadsheet. The furthest left hand column has more major corrections required to ensure that the last column remains unchanged. As the period between the here and now and Gods triumph over this world diminishes, so more and more corrections are required to keep everything on track.
Yes, but not in regard to the Final Plan. That Final Plan He gave to us through the Apostle John is recorded in Revelation. That plan has not changed, the only thing which keeps constantly changing is how we listen to God, how we obey Him, and therefore how God can use us.
God has to change His mind because He is dealing with us! That is not a pleasant thought for a switched-on-for-Jesus, Bible-believing Christian.
An interesting thought. In Revelation 21:6 Jesus said: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He doesnt speak about His authority during mans reign on this Earth! The beginning and the end but no mention of His absolute authority in the middle!!! He is there to help man but, ultimately, man must choose life or death, Jesus or Satan. With the promise for the future recorded in the Bible, I know where my focus must lie.
End Times
Is the future (often called the End Times) really pre-ordained? In Habakkuk 2:2-3 it says:
Then the LORD replied: Write down the revelation and make it plain on tablets so that a herald may run with it. For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay. [NIV]
So the appointed time, as God told Habakkuk the prophet, will not prove false. God set His plan into motion many thousands of years ago and that plan is still unfolding today.
As we rush towards that appointed time the Saints are being tested and many are found to be wanting. The ones who dont listen carefully to Gods word are likely to be left behind, to become so disillusioned with Christianity that they turn away from God.
We can see that turmoil in the world around us even now. As we get nearer to the End Times we will find that God will call on us even more. We will be given more and more tasks as the final day of the Lord draws near.
If we listened perfectly and obeyed Him in all things there would never be a need for God to change His mind.
Finally
God has the ability to make-good our mistakes. If we just live under our own fleshly desires and powers we will always fail. If we submit ourselves to God then we will receive the rewards He has promised us.
However, it is pleasing to know that, even if we dont always listen and obey 100 per cent of the time, God can still use us in more ways than we think possible. Look how He blessed King David, even though David was a self confessed sinner in many areas. Guess we dont have to be perfect, just repentant!
Just remember Hebrews 13:20-21 which says:
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. [NIV]
A clarification:
It has been pointed out to me, quite rightly, that the Bible states that God does not change His mind. For example: God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (Numbers 23:19a, NIV). While I agree with this statement completely, I think of it in terms of Gods Spreadsheet (above). The end result may not change but the path to that end result will always change due to the actions of others (ie our inability, or outright refusal, to listen to God and obey Him 100%).
Another analogy is this. You are driving your motor vehicle between two towns. The start and finish points of the journey (the two towns) does not change, but along the way you have to make small diversions you avoid potholes in the road, maybe road workers have erected a temporary detour because of repairs, there is a slow vehicle that you overtake, or you pull over a little to let a faster vehicle pass, etc.
Along the way you speed up and slow down because of other road users and the changing conditions on the road. Your actions are being controlled by other people and by circumstances beyond your control.
No two voyages you take over that road will be identical because of these changing conditions. However, you finally get to your destination in spite of the detours, potholes, and the actions of other people (motorists, pedestrians and cyclists).
God either orders us (pre-ordained blind obedience where we have no choice but to obey) or He allows us freewill. If He allows us freewill then He must allow for us to exercise that freewill and that means constantly changing His mind in the same way we do when we drive between two towns and make constant tiny changes to our path (caused by actions outside of our control).
The destination (as outlined in Revelation) does not change, but the path to that destination changes constantly.
Graham Pockett
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by modjoe86 Originally posted by Draenor I'm guessing that whatever you are refering to is in the old testment, where a lot more of the fire and brimstone stuff is present, in the Christian faith, anything that seems to conflict with the old testament that is present in the new testament, you are supposed to refer to the new testament, as it is somewhat of a "new" guide to life...
What I don't understand about the OT and NT issue is that: if God is omnipotent, why would he change his mind about what is right and wrong over the course of a few hundred years? Right and wrong should be pretty absolute in God's mind, so if God felt it was OK to kill thousands of innocents at Sodom and Gomorrah, why would he turn around and say "Love everyone, and turn the other cheek" in the New Testament. It makes no sense to me.
This is a long read, but wortwhile...I think it should clear up some of your questions.
I doubt that any Christian would deny the fact that God, being omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), could change His mind if He wished, but the question is: Does God ever change His mind?
Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5) so why would He ever need to change His mind?
To look at this properly we need to examine the subject of freewill.
Freewill
Recently I read that the concept of freewill in the Christian church was over rated implying that freewill was not the motivator of our faith. The article from a well known preacher implied that everything was God ordained and that He had our lives mapped out for us so that freewill ceased to be an important aspect of our walk with the Lord.
If you take that concept one step further you will accept that God has chosen us. Jesus said in Matthew 22:14 that For many are invited, but few are chosen. [NIV]. Therefore, according to that concept, some people are born to be saved and others are born to lead a life of sin and be damned.
That Calvanistic concept does not sit well with me.
Almost the entire Bible from Genesis to Jude anyway talks about freewill, our choice of whether we believe (have faith) that there is a God, the freewill to worship Him, the freewill to try and live a holy life. By the same rules, we also have the freewill to turn away from God, to mock Him, to spurn Him.
If God knows whether or not we will turn from him, or whetehr we will mock him, how is that free will? Just because I perceive a choice in the matter doesn't mean that choice actually exists.
Scriptures abound in this area. The first example in the Bible about freewill being exercised is the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall. In Genesis 2:16-17 says:
And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die. [NIV]
In Genesis 3:6 it says:
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. [NIV]
Adam had exercised his freewill by refusing to accept Gods command and disobeyed Him by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Results, of course, were disastrous for mankind!
God knew Adam would eat the fruit. So where was freewill exercised?
Further examples of man exercising freewill and directly opposing Gods wishes abound. In Genesis 4:6-10 we read the story of Cain and Abel:
Then the LORD said to Cain, Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it. Now Cain said to his brother Abel, Lets go out to the field. And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. Then the LORD said to Cain, Where is your brother Abel? I dont know, he replied. Am I my brothers keeper? The LORD said, What have you done? Listen! Your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground. [NIV]
So Cain killed Abel even though God warned him about sinning and then Cain stupidly tried to fool God by saying Am I my brothers keeper? As if God didnt know what had happened! Still, by allowing man freewill, God allowed Cain to go against Him and kill Abel.
God knew Cain would kill Abel, yet Cain exercised free will. A paradox indeed. The last sentence in that paragraph is a blatant contradiction. Just because God didn't intervene doesn't mean he exercised any free will.
By offering various rules of life or examples of how we should live (particularly the parables of Jesus) we can choose to live in Gods favour (by The Law as in the Old Testament or by Grace as in the New Testament) or we can choose to live outside of Gods favour. What are the Ten Commandments if not rules so that we may make a choice?
Choice doesn't exist if the outcome is pre-determined. Just because God doesn't tell you the outcome doesn't mean you have a choice in the matter.
But why would God give us these choices? It would have been easier to have given us a loving dog-like devotion to Him. He could have commanded obedience we would have been forced to live by His rules for us in the same way we order the world in which we live. We could have been Gods cattle.
We are God's cattle. Only a narcissistic sicko would create the ant farm we currently live in. Creating a race purely as a test of faith is wrong on so many levels.
But God didnt want blind obedience, He wanted our love, to be our loving Father and for us to be His loving sons. But love does not live in a vacuum and for God to give us the opportunity to love Him, He had to also give us the opportunity to turn away from Him. If there are no choices then there is no choice and He had to give us the choice so that we had the opportunity to choose Him otherwise how could we be sons and not cattle? Would you want a robot for a son? Would you want unquestioning obedience? If there was no questioning then there could be no love and what father doesnt cherish the love of his son?
See above.
If God wanted children and not robots or domestic cattle then He had to give those children freewill, the choice to love or not to love.
See above.
Therefore I believe that the preacher who advocated that freewill was overrated was wrong. Too many people look at a verse and not at the book. The Bible is interrelated and it is dangerous to put your faith on one or two verses and not comprehend the whole.
Does God ever change His mind?
Let us return to the original proposition. Does God ever change His mind?
If God is not going to manipulate us, if He is going to offer us the opportunity to express our freewill, then He is at the mercy of that freewill. He can say to us I would like you to donate a certain sum of money for missionary work but if we choose to ignore that small still voice then God will get someone else to supply that need. Maybe you were His first choice but your own inaction had led God to find someone else.
Do you ever wonder how many times God had a task for you and you didnt listen carefully? Do you ever think of lost opportunities to help someone find the Lord? Have you ever thought that maybe you should speak to someone about Jesus and then failed to do so, only to find out later that someone else led that person to the Lord?
God knew whether or not you would speak to that person abotu the Lord. I don't think a lack of listening is to blame.
God must change His mind because He is dealing with self-centred mortals who often get so wrapped up in their own petty problems that they neglect to listen to God. Because of our inability to be led, God must keep on finding alternatives to our lack of action.
I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over.
God knows us individually and will use us to the extent of our capabilities. We need to exercise our freewill so that we can be vessels which God uses.
Does God ever change His mind? If He does then it should be outlined in the Word. If we look at Genesis 6:6-7 we read:
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air for I am grieved that I have made them. [NIV]
If God made the wrong decision initially, and has to flood the Earth to correct it, how is his omnipotence still valid?
I'll finish up later. I'm drunk, my head hurts, and your post is really long.
Originally posted by opeth313x I've seen a few posts about how arrogant Catholics can be. I'm Catholic, I don't understand much about my religion, so I can't really say I'm offended or not. Though I do see a lot of stereotypical posts being made about things relating to Religion. I really don't understand much about my religion at all, so I might not understand what you are talking about if you reply...
You can all live a lie if you want, but if you truly believe that you will go to a better place after you die, then why would you be afraid if I put a gun to your head? If that "better place" existed, then would you not have you arms wide open, unafraid of death? This "heaven" is just an illusion created by people who wished they could have eternal life, but since they could not find it in this world attempted to clothe that fact with bittersweet promises to themselves and others. The concepts of heaven and hell also serve another purpose; keeping the populace under control. If a person believes that if he commits a sin then he will go to hell, will he be nearly as willing to kill somebody or steal something? No. And it is for this reason only that I say that religion is not completely useless. Religion is something that my mom (not so much my dad) tried to push onto me, and so I have experience with it. This experience has led me to realize how completely ludicrous some of the ideas that religious folk come up with are. When you die, you are dead. There is nothing, no soul, no spirit that will continue living. And I do not say, "live life to the fullest" because it will all be a waste. Everything that you accomplish will eventually be forgotten, and nobody will care how good a time you had at that party last night. The entire purpose of a human is the same purpose as any other dimwitted animal; to survive, reproduce, raise the offspring and die. Pessimistic? Extremely, which is why religion stuffs cotton in one ear and whispers gilded lies into the other. But believe what you will, because it doesn't matter. When you really think about it, nothing we do matters.
I just came up with all of this off the top of my head, so if I made any grammatical errors, sorry in advance.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Originally posted by LostSeraph You can all live a lie if you want, but if you truly believe that you will go to a better place after you die, then why would you be afraid if I put a gun to your head? If that "better place" existed, then would you not have you arms wide open, unafraid of death? This "heaven" is just an illusion created by people who wished they could have eternal life, but since they could not find it in this world attempted to clothe that fact with bittersweet promises to themselves and others. The concepts of heaven and hell also serve another purpose; keeping the populace under control. If a person believes that if he commits a sin then he will go to hell, will he be nearly as willing to kill somebody or steal something? No. And it is for this reason only that I say that religion is not completely useless. Religion is something that my mom (not so much my dad) tried to push onto me, and so I have experience with it. This experience has led me to realize how completely ludicrous some of the ideas that religious folk come up with are. When you die, you are dead. There is nothing, no soul, no spirit that will continue living. And I do not say, "live life to the fullest" because it will all be a waste. Everything that you accomplish will eventually be forgotten, and nobody will care how good a time you had at that party last night. The entire purpose of a human is the same purpose as any other dimwitted animal; to survive, reproduce, raise the offspring and die. Pessimistic? Extremely, which is why religion stuffs cotton in one ear and whispers gilded lies into the other. But believe what you will, because it doesn't matter. When you really think about it, nothing we do matters.
I just came up with all of this off the top of my head, so if I made any grammatical errors, sorry in advance.
You started off with a question, so I'll go from there...
The reason that not everyone is putting a gun to their head in order to get to Heaven faster is pretty simple...Many people believe that you cannot go to Heaven if you commit suicide(the Bible doesn't ACTUALLY say that thought) It is a commonly held belief in all religious faiths thought that Suicide is a huge slap in the face to God, who created you...and that doing it is akin to telling him that his creation isn't any good. I'm sorry but your revelation about suicide is not a first, I've heard that question many times...and it's not nearly as incitefull as people seem to think, there is a very simple answer for it.
Also, Tell me just how you know what happens when you die...have you ever died? Are you dead right now? I didn't think so, so please don't rattle off your opinions about something that nobody knows and pass them off as fact. Say what you want about the creation of religion...but tell me what your faith in nothing has to offer me, I'll tell you what my faith in God has to offer you. At least in my faith life has meaning, according to yours beliefs, your life is a chance happning with no real relevence or meaning at all. It's a very bleak existance that I am not willing to believe. It might even surprise you to know that the majority of the scientific community is not athiest, but rather believing in a creator somewhere somehow...You see, the big bang theory does nothing to explain the origin of life, only the origin or how the universe started, and it's not even a widely accepted theory at that.
my point is simply that nobody knows, and no science can explain the origin of the universe, or the origin of life...they try, but inevitably fail...experiments that have attempted to create life inside of small recreations of the universe under optimal conditions for life have always failed...queue the Miller experiment reference.
The Miller experiment did not create life, yes he succeeded in creating amino acids, but what text books do not tell you is that he created both left and right handed amino acids...living organisms only have left handed amino acids, anything with right handed amino acids is DEAD....Miller did not create life, he created death.
You seem to have a very bleak outlook on life, I might suggest going out and reading up on actual factual information about religion, rather than taking your parents forcing you to go to church as a basis for all your knowledge about it...My parents forced me as well, and after awhile, I became agnostic...I have since come full circle with that and again call myself Christian, but it isn't because I am blind and simply want to believe in a Heaven, it goes way beyond that.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by LostSeraph You can all live a lie if you want, but if you truly believe that you will go to a better place after you die, then why would you be afraid if I put a gun to your head? If that "better place" existed, then would you not have you arms wide open, unafraid of death? This "heaven" is just an illusion created by people who wished they could have eternal life, but since they could not find it in this world attempted to clothe that fact with bittersweet promises to themselves and others. The concepts of heaven and hell also serve another purpose; keeping the populace under control. If a person believes that if he commits a sin then he will go to hell, will he be nearly as willing to kill somebody or steal something? No. And it is for this reason only that I say that religion is not completely useless. Religion is something that my mom (not so much my dad) tried to push onto me, and so I have experience with it. This experience has led me to realize how completely ludicrous some of the ideas that religious folk come up with are. When you die, you are dead. There is nothing, no soul, no spirit that will continue living. And I do not say, "live life to the fullest" because it will all be a waste. Everything that you accomplish will eventually be forgotten, and nobody will care how good a time you had at that party last night. The entire purpose of a human is the same purpose as any other dimwitted animal; to survive, reproduce, raise the offspring and die. Pessimistic? Extremely, which is why religion stuffs cotton in one ear and whispers gilded lies into the other. But believe what you will, because it doesn't matter. When you really think about it, nothing we do matters.
I just came up with all of this off the top of my head, so if I made any grammatical errors, sorry in advance.
You started off with a question, so I'll go from there...
The reason that not everyone is putting a gun to their head in order to get to Heaven faster is pretty simple...Many people believe that you cannot go to Heaven if you commit suicide(the Bible doesn't ACTUALLY say that thought) It is a commonly held belief in all religious faiths thought that Suicide is a huge slap in the face to God, who created you...and that doing it is akin to telling him that his creation isn't any good. I'm sorry but your revelation about suicide is not a first, I've heard that question many times...and it's not nearly as incitefull as people seem to think, there is a very simple answer for it.
Also, Tell me just how you know what happens when you die...have you ever died? Are you dead right now? I didn't think so, so please don't rattle off your opinions about something that nobody knows and pass them off as fact. Say what you want about the creation of religion...but tell me what your faith in nothing has to offer me, I'll tell you what my faith in God has to offer you. At least in my faith life has meaning, according to yours beliefs, your life is a chance happning with no real relevence or meaning at all. It's a very bleak existance that I am not willing to believe. It might even surprise you to know that the majority of the scientific community is not athiest, but rather believing in a creator somewhere somehow...You see, the big bang theory does nothing to explain the origin of life, only the origin or how the universe started, and it's not even a widely accepted theory at that.
my point is simply that nobody knows, and no science can explain the origin of the universe, or the origin of life...they try, but inevitably fail...experiments that have attempted to create life inside of small recreations of the universe under optimal conditions for life have always failed...queue the Miller experiment reference.
The Miller experiment did not create life, yes he succeeded in creating amino acids, but what text books do not tell you is that he created both left and right handed amino acids...living organisms only have left handed amino acids, anything with right handed amino acids is DEAD....Miller did not create life, he created death.
You seem to have a very bleak outlook on life, I might suggest going out and reading up on actual factual information about religion, rather than taking your parents forcing you to go to church as a basis for all your knowledge about it...My parents forced me as well, and after awhile, I became agnostic...I have since come full circle with that and again call myself Christian, but it isn't because I am blind and simply want to believe in a Heaven, it goes way beyond that.
Please tell me when I even mentioned committing suicide? I said if I put a gun to your head, not you putting a gun to your own head. I already knew that suicide is considered a sin. Thank you for helping me prove my own point on the after-death thing. You're absolutely right, I have no factual information whatsoever about what happens to you when you die. The thing is, neither do Catholics, nor any other religion for that matter, which is why I hate when the church tries to tell me what will happen after I die, and what the consequences will be for my actions. I've read many books on religion, not much of my knowledge of religion comes from church. Heck, I fall asleep in church half the time. My outlook on life is pretty bleak. No argument there.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Originally posted by LostSeraph You can all live a lie if you want, but if you truly believe that you will go to a better place after you die, then why would you be afraid if I put a gun to your head? If that "better place" existed, then would you not have you arms wide open, unafraid of death?
Please tell me when I even mentioned committing suicide? I said if I put a gun to your head, not you putting a gun to your own head. I already knew that suicide is considered a sin. Thank you for helping me prove my own point on the after-death thing. You're absolutely right, I have no factual information whatsoever about what happens to you when you die. The thing is, neither do Catholics, nor any other religion for that matter, which is why I hate when the church tries to tell me what will happen after I die, and what the consequences will be for my actions. I've read many books on religion, not much of my knowledge of religion comes from church. Heck, I fall asleep in church half the time. My outlook on life is pretty bleak. No argument there.
There, I quoted it for you...if that wasn't an implication that people should just kill themselves then I don't know what is...don't play word games with me please, you won't win.
Note that I never said that I have proof of an afterlife either...I simply said that your faith in nothing has nothing to offer me, whereas my faith has something to offer you...If you are right and I am wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity as nothing, and my life never meant anything...and the same goes for you. But if I am right and you are wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity happy and my life actually meant something.
I'll take my chances with faith in God...since faith in nothing has nothing to offer.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by LostSeraph Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by LostSeraph You can all live a lie if you want, but if you truly believe that you will go to a better place after you die, then why would you be afraid if I put a gun to your head? If that "better place" existed, then would you not have you arms wide open, unafraid of death?
Please tell me when I even mentioned committing suicide? I said if I put a gun to your head, not you putting a gun to your own head. I already knew that suicide is considered a sin. Thank you for helping me prove my own point on the after-death thing. You're absolutely right, I have no factual information whatsoever about what happens to you when you die. The thing is, neither do Catholics, nor any other religion for that matter, which is why I hate when the church tries to tell me what will happen after I die, and what the consequences will be for my actions. I've read many books on religion, not much of my knowledge of religion comes from church. Heck, I fall asleep in church half the time. My outlook on life is pretty bleak. No argument there.
There, I quoted it for you...if that wasn't an implication that people should just kill themselves then I don't know what is...don't play word games with me please, you won't win.
Note that I never said that I have proof of an afterlife either...I simply said that your faith in nothing has nothing to offer me, whereas my faith has something to offer you...If you are right and I am wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity as nothing, and my life never meant anything...and the same goes for you. But if I am right and you are wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity happy and my life actually meant something.
I'll take my chances with faith in God...since faith in nothing has nothing to offer.
I quoted it too, oh boy. There was no implication at all that people should kill themselves; the point that I was trying (and apparently unsuccessfully) to make was that if a random person were to come up to you and put a gun to your head, would you be afraid or say "I look forward to heaven"? Committing suicide could be taken from that, I guess...sorta...not really... Word games? That's completely non-sequitor. "Spend the rest of eternity happy"...Happiness is an emotion. Emotions are simply an intense neural impulse-produced mental state that arises subjectively rather than through conscious effort and evokes either a positive or negative physchological response to move an organism to action. So if that's what you want, okay. Faith in nothing has nothing to offer? Hardly. Faith in nothing opens up a whole new world of freedom. No rules dictating whether you go to heaven or hell, nothing in the back of your mind preventing you from doing things that "God" wouldn't like. It lets you "live life to the fullest", as they say. I'm not saying that I feel completely unrestricted though, and I wouldn't go around causing chaos and dischord, because I am still bound by the rules of society and government. But it takes away restrictions that would otherwise have you binding yourself through your beliefs. Chaotic? Perhaps, but I too am willing to take my chances.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Being afraid to die is different than not wanting to die...so your analogy isn't valid anyway...if someone holds a gun to your head, of course you're going to be scared, not very many people are so calm that when a gun goes to their head they would be able to think "it's okay, I'll go to Heaven" and that's natural...I wouldn't say that I am afraid to die..does that mean that I want to die? Of course not.
As for the whole emotion thing...you're right in a strictly physical sense...but since you don't seem to believe in any sort of dimension but the physical one, it is pointless for me to argue with you about it...what I said still stands though, your faith has nothing to offer me...if I thought that I would be gaining something from believing in a meaningless existance then maybe I would...but I'm not that pesimistic.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I am I like arguing about religion cause it's impossible to ever win an argument about something that has no proof of or against it. It's more fun than arguing about something with a definetive answer like algebra or calculus, that stuff is boring.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Originally posted by LostSeraph I am I like arguing about religion cause it's impossible to ever win an argument about something that has no proof of or against it. It's more fun than arguing about something with a definetive answer like algebra or calculus, that stuff is boring.
So basically this has all been because we both hate algebra...good stuff.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
i dont hate Catholics...thats just stupid, i do however poke fun at them for there Micheal Jackson habbits. but i poke fun at myself too for being a Overweight mexican....so....lol my friends and I always make fun of eachother. not like im ganna go up to some Priest and ask him when hes having Micheal over next...lol, he might cast a Shadow Spell on me!!!
Comments
Yeah...Because the 11th commandment was actually "thou shalt wear goofy hats"
seriously, your post was completely inflamatory and rather offensive.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
This is probly my only post when i'm not hating on someone or something.
Religeon is not a bad thing.
If people followed the Bible, or Qu'ran or whatever, then the world
would be very peaceful. Society came out of organized religeon, and
from that cultures developed. Religeon is basically a set of moral
ground rules, and a way to keep people organized.
It is
peoples own fault that these basic teachings have become so effing
distorted over many years, but that dosen't make religeon a bad thing.
You can't say religeon is bad because if everyone was religeous; to some extent the world would be a better place.
I am athiest by the way.
lol i dont care for religoun either.
EDIT; Even if it is in the Bible..which I seriously doubt, who is to say that a world without cheaters wouldn't be peaceful?
I got me rosary, catechism, and Pope Benedict XVI picture all set.
/secret Catholic handshake.
Now I'm no longer a practicing Catholic and I don't believe in much of the Catholic church. I also came to realize that I should identify with others who struggle the same struggle I do, so I guess I am an ex-Catholic. But the point being, many people identify with their religion because that is their only connection to their people.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
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Because the people that changed it figured it was more convenient of course. Its much easier to convert people to a peaceful religion than with a threatening god.
This is a long read, but wortwhile...I think it should clear up some of your questions.
I doubt that any Christian would deny the fact that God, being omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), could change His mind if He wished, but the question is: Does God ever change His mind?
Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5) so why would He ever need to change His mind?
To look at this properly we need to examine the subject of freewill.
Freewill
Recently I read that the concept of freewill in the Christian church was over rated implying that freewill was not the motivator of our faith. The article from a well known preacher implied that everything was God ordained and that He had our lives mapped out for us so that freewill ceased to be an important aspect of our walk with the Lord.
If you take that concept one step further you will accept that God has chosen us. Jesus said in Matthew 22:14 that For many are invited, but few are chosen. [NIV]. Therefore, according to that concept, some people are born to be saved and others are born to lead a life of sin and be damned.
That Calvanistic concept does not sit well with me.
Almost the entire Bible from Genesis to Jude anyway talks about freewill, our choice of whether we believe (have faith) that there is a God, the freewill to worship Him, the freewill to try and live a holy life. By the same rules, we also have the freewill to turn away from God, to mock Him, to spurn Him.
Scriptures abound in this area. The first example in the Bible about freewill being exercised is the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall. In Genesis 2:16-17 says:
And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die. [NIV]
In Genesis 3:6 it says:
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. [NIV]
Adam had exercised his freewill by refusing to accept Gods command and disobeyed Him by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Results, of course, were disastrous for mankind!
Further examples of man exercising freewill and directly opposing Gods wishes abound. In Genesis 4:6-10 we read the story of Cain and Abel:
Then the LORD said to Cain, Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, Lets go out to the field. And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
Then the LORD said to Cain, Where is your brother Abel?
I dont know, he replied. Am I my brothers keeper?
The LORD said, What have you done? Listen! Your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground. [NIV]
So Cain killed Abel even though God warned him about sinning and then Cain stupidly tried to fool God by saying Am I my brothers keeper? As if God didnt know what had happened! Still, by allowing man freewill, God allowed Cain to go against Him and kill Abel.
By offering various rules of life or examples of how we should live (particularly the parables of Jesus) we can choose to live in Gods favour (by The Law as in the Old Testament or by Grace as in the New Testament) or we can choose to live outside of Gods favour. What are the Ten Commandments if not rules so that we may make a choice?
But why would God give us these choices? It would have been easier to have given us a loving dog-like devotion to Him. He could have commanded obedience we would have been forced to live by His rules for us in the same way we order the world in which we live. We could have been Gods cattle.
But God didnt want blind obedience, He wanted our love, to be our loving Father and for us to be His loving sons. But love does not live in a vacuum and for God to give us the opportunity to love Him, He had to also give us the opportunity to turn away from Him. If there are no choices then there is no choice and He had to give us the choice so that we had the opportunity to choose Him otherwise how could we be sons and not cattle? Would you want a robot for a son? Would you want unquestioning obedience? If there was no questioning then there could be no love and what father doesnt cherish the love of his son?
If God wanted children and not robots or domestic cattle then He had to give those children freewill, the choice to love or not to love.
Therefore I believe that the preacher who advocated that freewill was overrated was wrong. Too many people look at a verse and not at the book. The Bible is interrelated and it is dangerous to put your faith on one or two verses and not comprehend the whole.
Does God ever change His mind?
Let us return to the original proposition. Does God ever change His mind?
If God is not going to manipulate us, if He is going to offer us the opportunity to express our freewill, then He is at the mercy of that freewill. He can say to us I would like you to donate a certain sum of money for missionary work but if we choose to ignore that small still voice then God will get someone else to supply that need. Maybe you were His first choice but your own inaction had led God to find someone else.
Do you ever wonder how many times God had a task for you and you didnt listen carefully? Do you ever think of lost opportunities to help someone find the Lord? Have you ever thought that maybe you should speak to someone about Jesus and then failed to do so, only to find out later that someone else led that person to the Lord?
God must change His mind because He is dealing with self-centred mortals who often get so wrapped up in their own petty problems that they neglect to listen to God. Because of our inability to be led, God must keep on finding alternatives to our lack of action.
God knows us individually and will use us to the extent of our capabilities. We need to exercise our freewill so that we can be vessels which God uses.
Does God ever change His mind? If He does then it should be outlined in the Word. If we look at Genesis 6:6-7 we read:
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air for I am grieved that I have made them. [NIV]
So apparently God DID change His mind and that change of mind led to the Great Flood.
If we look at the story of the Golden Calf in Exodus 32 we read that God was so unhappy with his stiff necked people that, in verse10, the Lord said to Moses:
Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation. [NIV]
But Moses pleaded for his people and finally God said to Moses (v14):
Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.[NIV]
If we continue on with the story of the errant Israelites we find that God is still unhappy with them. In Exodus 33:3 God says:
Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way. [NIV]
This is extraordinary! God is saying that He might not be able to control Himself because of the attitude of the Israelites. This is exactly what we have been looking at. God is, in some ways, at our mercy. The freewill He has given us as the tool so that we can love Him as sons and daughters can also be turned against Him it is a two-edged sword. With gifts like freewill comes responsibility. One cannot flourish without the other.
Look whats happening in our schools today. We tell children that they have rights but be dont balance that with the knowledge that with those rights comes responsibility one cannot successfully live without the other. God has given us the right to our freewill, but we must temper that by being responsible.
Lets look at another Scripture where God has changed His mind. In 1 Samuel 15:35b it says:
And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel. [NIV]
Again, man has let down God and God grieved His original decision to make Saul king.
One of the most remarkable stories in the Bible can be found in the book of Jonah (Jonah 1:1-4):
The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.
But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD.
Then the LORD sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship threatened to break up. [NIV]
With the ship threatened, Jonah told the crew to throw him overboard to appease God and to save them. This they reluctantly did and the raging sea grew calm (v15). Jonah, of course, was swallowed by a great fish and stayed there for three days and nights. Finally, God commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land (Jonah 2:10).
Now lets read from Jonah 3:1-4...
Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time: Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.
Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city a visit required three days. On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned. [NIV]
So Jonah finally obeyed the Lord and told the Ninevites that they had only 40 days before their huge city of more than 120,000 people would be overturned. Reading further from Jonah 3:5-10...
The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust.
Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
By the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste
anything; do not let them eat or drink. But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let
everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows?
God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.
When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. [NIV]
So the Ninevites repented of their evil ways and their violence and God, again, changed His mind!
Obviously, how we behave for good or for bad determines how God treats us. God adjusts His behaviour to us dependent on how we behave and what choices we make.
So our freewill allows us to go against Gods wishes and that makes God change His mind. Often He will keep on reminding us so that, if we do start to listen, we can finally obey Gods command. If we dont then God allows us that right to disobey and we are ultimately the losers.
Many people would have heard the story of the drunk who was captivated by the beautiful singing and staggered into a church and was saved, never to touch the demon drink again. I have often wondered just how many churches God led that drunk to before he finally took the hint and went inside. Was it a 100? 200?
God works to a plan part of which is outlined in Revelation but for that plan to come into effect many things must be done.
Gods Spreadsheet
God showed me that His plan is like a huge computer spreadsheet a spreadsheet as large as this planet. The first column is the present, and the last column is the culmination of Gods plan, but this spreadsheet works in reverse to other spreadsheets. Normally, you make a small correction to a cell in the first column you could call it the here and now and the ripple effect amplifies that correction until the whole spreadsheet is upgraded with new data invariably with a new conclusion.
However Gods spreadsheet works the other way. The first column the here and now is where all the action is and I can envision a huge turmoil in that column. The next column exhibits less turmoil, and the next even less. This abating ripple effect goes on until we get to the end where there are no changes taking place. The last column remains unchanged because that is Gods ultimate plan for us. That plan, outlined in Revelation, has not changed and never will.
Time is progressing from left to right towards the end of Gods spreadsheet. The furthest left hand column has more major corrections required to ensure that the last column remains unchanged. As the period between the here and now and Gods triumph over this world diminishes, so more and more corrections are required to keep everything on track.
Yes, but not in regard to the Final Plan. That Final Plan He gave to us through the Apostle John is recorded in Revelation. That plan has not changed, the only thing which keeps constantly changing is how we listen to God, how we obey Him, and therefore how God can use us.
God has to change His mind because He is dealing with us! That is not a pleasant thought for a switched-on-for-Jesus, Bible-believing Christian.
An interesting thought. In Revelation 21:6 Jesus said: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He doesnt speak about His authority during mans reign on this Earth! The beginning and the end but no mention of His absolute authority in the middle!!! He is there to help man but, ultimately, man must choose life or death, Jesus or Satan. With the promise for the future recorded in the Bible, I know where my focus must lie.
End Times
Is the future (often called the End Times) really pre-ordained? In Habakkuk 2:2-3 it says:
Then the LORD replied: Write down the revelation and make it plain on tablets so that a herald may run with it. For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay. [NIV]
So the appointed time, as God told Habakkuk the prophet, will not prove false. God set His plan into motion many thousands of years ago and that plan is still unfolding today.
As we rush towards that appointed time the Saints are being tested and many are found to be wanting. The ones who dont listen carefully to Gods word are likely to be left behind, to become so disillusioned with Christianity that they turn away from God.
We can see that turmoil in the world around us even now. As we get nearer to the End Times we will find that God will call on us even more. We will be given more and more tasks as the final day of the Lord draws near.
If we listened perfectly and obeyed Him in all things there would never be a need for God to change His mind.
Finally
God has the ability to make-good our mistakes. If we just live under our own fleshly desires and powers we will always fail. If we submit ourselves to God then we will receive the rewards He has promised us.
However, it is pleasing to know that, even if we dont always listen and obey 100 per cent of the time, God can still use us in more ways than we think possible. Look how He blessed King David, even though David was a self confessed sinner in many areas. Guess we dont have to be perfect, just repentant!
Just remember Hebrews 13:20-21 which says:
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. [NIV]
A clarification:
It has been pointed out to me, quite rightly, that the Bible states that God does not change His mind. For example:
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. (Numbers 23:19a, NIV).
While I agree with this statement completely, I think of it in terms of Gods Spreadsheet (above). The end result may not change but the path to that end result will always change due to the actions of others (ie our inability, or outright refusal, to listen to God and obey Him 100%).
Another analogy is this. You are driving your motor vehicle between two towns. The start and finish points of the journey (the two towns) does not change, but along the way you have to make small diversions you avoid potholes in the road, maybe road workers have erected a temporary detour because of repairs, there is a slow vehicle that you overtake, or you pull over a little to let a faster vehicle pass, etc.
Along the way you speed up and slow down because of other road users and the changing conditions on the road. Your actions are being controlled by other people and by circumstances beyond your control.
No two voyages you take over that road will be identical because of these changing conditions. However, you finally get to your destination in spite of the detours, potholes, and the actions of other people (motorists, pedestrians and cyclists).
God either orders us (pre-ordained blind obedience where we have no choice but to obey) or He allows us freewill. If He allows us freewill then He must allow for us to exercise that freewill and that means constantly changing His mind in the same way![]()
we do when we drive between two towns and make constant tiny changes to our path (caused by actions outside of our control).
The destination (as outlined in Revelation) does not change, but the path to that destination changes constantly.
Graham Pockett
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
This is a long read, but wortwhile...I think it should clear up some of your questions.
I doubt that any Christian would deny the fact that God, being omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (ever-present) and omniscient (all-knowing), could change His mind if He wished, but the question is: Does God ever change His mind?
Anyone who is all-knowing must, by definition, know everything and therefore should never need to change His mind because He knew what has, and what will, happen in any set of circumstances. His word is quite clear He knew us before we were born (Jeremiah 1:5) so why would He ever need to change His mind?
To look at this properly we need to examine the subject of freewill.
Freewill
Recently I read that the concept of freewill in the Christian church was over rated implying that freewill was not the motivator of our faith. The article from a well known preacher implied that everything was God ordained and that He had our lives mapped out for us so that freewill ceased to be an important aspect of our walk with the Lord.
If you take that concept one step further you will accept that God has chosen us. Jesus said in Matthew 22:14 that For many are invited, but few are chosen. [NIV]. Therefore, according to that concept, some people are born to be saved and others are born to lead a life of sin and be damned.
That Calvanistic concept does not sit well with me.
Almost the entire Bible from Genesis to Jude anyway talks about freewill, our choice of whether we believe (have faith) that there is a God, the freewill to worship Him, the freewill to try and live a holy life. By the same rules, we also have the freewill to turn away from God, to mock Him, to spurn Him.
If God knows whether or not we will turn from him, or whetehr we will mock him, how is that free will? Just because I perceive a choice in the matter doesn't mean that choice actually exists.
Scriptures abound in this area. The first example in the Bible about freewill being exercised is the story of Adam and Eve and the Fall. In Genesis 2:16-17 says:
And the LORD God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die. [NIV]
In Genesis 3:6 it says:
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. [NIV]
Adam had exercised his freewill by refusing to accept Gods command and disobeyed Him by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Results, of course, were disastrous for mankind!
God knew Adam would eat the fruit. So where was freewill exercised?
Further examples of man exercising freewill and directly opposing Gods wishes abound. In Genesis 4:6-10 we read the story of Cain and Abel:
Then the LORD said to Cain, Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, Lets go out to the field. And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
Then the LORD said to Cain, Where is your brother Abel?
I dont know, he replied. Am I my brothers keeper?
The LORD said, What have you done? Listen! Your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground. [NIV]
So Cain killed Abel even though God warned him about sinning and then Cain stupidly tried to fool God by saying Am I my brothers keeper? As if God didnt know what had happened! Still, by allowing man freewill, God allowed Cain to go against Him and kill Abel.
God knew Cain would kill Abel, yet Cain exercised free will. A paradox indeed. The last sentence in that paragraph is a blatant contradiction. Just because God didn't intervene doesn't mean he exercised any free will.
By offering various rules of life or examples of how we should live (particularly the parables of Jesus) we can choose to live in Gods favour (by The Law as in the Old Testament or by Grace as in the New Testament) or we can choose to live outside of Gods favour. What are the Ten Commandments if not rules so that we may make a choice?
Choice doesn't exist if the outcome is pre-determined. Just because God doesn't tell you the outcome doesn't mean you have a choice in the matter.
But why would God give us these choices? It would have been easier to have given us a loving dog-like devotion to Him. He could have commanded obedience we would have been forced to live by His rules for us in the same way we order the world in which we live. We could have been Gods cattle.
We are God's cattle. Only a narcissistic sicko would create the ant farm we currently live in. Creating a race purely as a test of faith is wrong on so many levels.
But God didnt want blind obedience, He wanted our love, to be our loving Father and for us to be His loving sons. But love does not live in a vacuum and for God to give us the opportunity to love Him, He had to also give us the opportunity to turn away from Him. If there are no choices then there is no choice and He had to give us the choice so that we had the opportunity to choose Him otherwise how could we be sons and not cattle? Would you want a robot for a son? Would you want unquestioning obedience? If there was no questioning then there could be no love and what father doesnt cherish the love of his son?
See above.
If God wanted children and not robots or domestic cattle then He had to give those children freewill, the choice to love or not to love.
See above.
Therefore I believe that the preacher who advocated that freewill was overrated was wrong. Too many people look at a verse and not at the book. The Bible is interrelated and it is dangerous to put your faith on one or two verses and not comprehend the whole.
Does God ever change His mind?
Let us return to the original proposition. Does God ever change His mind?
If God is not going to manipulate us, if He is going to offer us the opportunity to express our freewill, then He is at the mercy of that freewill. He can say to us I would like you to donate a certain sum of money for missionary work but if we choose to ignore that small still voice then God will get someone else to supply that need. Maybe you were His first choice but your own inaction had led God to find someone else.
Do you ever wonder how many times God had a task for you and you didnt listen carefully? Do you ever think of lost opportunities to help someone find the Lord? Have you ever thought that maybe you should speak to someone about Jesus and then failed to do so, only to find out later that someone else led that person to the Lord?
God knew whether or not you would speak to that person abotu the Lord. I don't think a lack of listening is to blame.
God must change His mind because He is dealing with self-centred mortals who often get so wrapped up in their own petty problems that they neglect to listen to God. Because of our inability to be led, God must keep on finding alternatives to our lack of action.
I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over.
God knows us individually and will use us to the extent of our capabilities. We need to exercise our freewill so that we can be vessels which God uses.
Does God ever change His mind? If He does then it should be outlined in the Word. If we look at Genesis 6:6-7 we read:
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air for I am grieved that I have made them. [NIV]
If God made the wrong decision initially, and has to flood the Earth to correct it, how is his omnipotence still valid?
I'll finish up later. I'm drunk, my head hurts, and your post is really long.
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Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
The concepts of heaven and hell also serve another purpose; keeping the populace under control. If a person believes that if he commits a sin then he will go to hell, will he be nearly as willing to kill somebody or steal something? No. And it is for this reason only that I say that religion is not completely useless.
Religion is something that my mom (not so much my dad) tried to push onto me, and so I have experience with it. This experience has led me to realize how completely ludicrous some of the ideas that religious folk come up with are.
When you die, you are dead. There is nothing, no soul, no spirit that will continue living. And I do not say, "live life to the fullest" because it will all be a waste. Everything that you accomplish will eventually be forgotten, and nobody will care how good a time you had at that party last night. The entire purpose of a human is the same purpose as any other dimwitted animal; to survive, reproduce, raise the offspring and die. Pessimistic? Extremely, which is why religion stuffs cotton in one ear and whispers gilded lies into the other.
But believe what you will, because it doesn't matter. When you really think about it, nothing we do matters.
I just came up with all of this off the top of my head, so if I made any grammatical errors, sorry in advance.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
You started off with a question, so I'll go from there...
The reason that not everyone is putting a gun to their head in order to get to Heaven faster is pretty simple...Many people believe that you cannot go to Heaven if you commit suicide(the Bible doesn't ACTUALLY say that thought) It is a commonly held belief in all religious faiths thought that Suicide is a huge slap in the face to God, who created you...and that doing it is akin to telling him that his creation isn't any good. I'm sorry but your revelation about suicide is not a first, I've heard that question many times...and it's not nearly as incitefull as people seem to think, there is a very simple answer for it.
Also, Tell me just how you know what happens when you die...have you ever died? Are you dead right now? I didn't think so, so please don't rattle off your opinions about something that nobody knows and pass them off as fact. Say what you want about the creation of religion...but tell me what your faith in nothing has to offer me, I'll tell you what my faith in God has to offer you. At least in my faith life has meaning, according to yours beliefs, your life is a chance happning with no real relevence or meaning at all. It's a very bleak existance that I am not willing to believe. It might even surprise you to know that the majority of the scientific community is not athiest, but rather believing in a creator somewhere somehow...You see, the big bang theory does nothing to explain the origin of life, only the origin or how the universe started, and it's not even a widely accepted theory at that.
my point is simply that nobody knows, and no science can explain the origin of the universe, or the origin of life...they try, but inevitably fail...experiments that have attempted to create life inside of small recreations of the universe under optimal conditions for life have always failed...queue the Miller experiment reference.
The Miller experiment did not create life, yes he succeeded in creating amino acids, but what text books do not tell you is that he created both left and right handed amino acids...living organisms only have left handed amino acids, anything with right handed amino acids is DEAD....Miller did not create life, he created death.
You seem to have a very bleak outlook on life, I might suggest going out and reading up on actual factual information about religion, rather than taking your parents forcing you to go to church as a basis for all your knowledge about it...My parents forced me as well, and after awhile, I became agnostic...I have since come full circle with that and again call myself Christian, but it isn't because I am blind and simply want to believe in a Heaven, it goes way beyond that.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
You started off with a question, so I'll go from there...
The reason that not everyone is putting a gun to their head in order to get to Heaven faster is pretty simple...Many people believe that you cannot go to Heaven if you commit suicide(the Bible doesn't ACTUALLY say that thought) It is a commonly held belief in all religious faiths thought that Suicide is a huge slap in the face to God, who created you...and that doing it is akin to telling him that his creation isn't any good. I'm sorry but your revelation about suicide is not a first, I've heard that question many times...and it's not nearly as incitefull as people seem to think, there is a very simple answer for it.
Also, Tell me just how you know what happens when you die...have you ever died? Are you dead right now? I didn't think so, so please don't rattle off your opinions about something that nobody knows and pass them off as fact. Say what you want about the creation of religion...but tell me what your faith in nothing has to offer me, I'll tell you what my faith in God has to offer you. At least in my faith life has meaning, according to yours beliefs, your life is a chance happning with no real relevence or meaning at all. It's a very bleak existance that I am not willing to believe. It might even surprise you to know that the majority of the scientific community is not athiest, but rather believing in a creator somewhere somehow...You see, the big bang theory does nothing to explain the origin of life, only the origin or how the universe started, and it's not even a widely accepted theory at that.
my point is simply that nobody knows, and no science can explain the origin of the universe, or the origin of life...they try, but inevitably fail...experiments that have attempted to create life inside of small recreations of the universe under optimal conditions for life have always failed...queue the Miller experiment reference.
The Miller experiment did not create life, yes he succeeded in creating amino acids, but what text books do not tell you is that he created both left and right handed amino acids...living organisms only have left handed amino acids, anything with right handed amino acids is DEAD....Miller did not create life, he created death.
You seem to have a very bleak outlook on life, I might suggest going out and reading up on actual factual information about religion, rather than taking your parents forcing you to go to church as a basis for all your knowledge about it...My parents forced me as well, and after awhile, I became agnostic...I have since come full circle with that and again call myself Christian, but it isn't because I am blind and simply want to believe in a Heaven, it goes way beyond that.
Please tell me when I even mentioned committing suicide? I said if I put a gun to your head, not you putting a gun to your own head. I already knew that suicide is considered a sin.
Thank you for helping me prove my own point on the after-death thing. You're absolutely right, I have no factual information whatsoever about what happens to you when you die. The thing is, neither do Catholics, nor any other religion for that matter, which is why I hate when the church tries to tell me what will happen after I die, and what the consequences will be for my actions.
I've read many books on religion, not much of my knowledge of religion comes from church. Heck, I fall asleep in church half the time.
My outlook on life is pretty bleak. No argument there.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Thank you for helping me prove my own point on the after-death thing. You're absolutely right, I have no factual information whatsoever about what happens to you when you die. The thing is, neither do Catholics, nor any other religion for that matter, which is why I hate when the church tries to tell me what will happen after I die, and what the consequences will be for my actions.
I've read many books on religion, not much of my knowledge of religion comes from church. Heck, I fall asleep in church half the time.
My outlook on life is pretty bleak. No argument there.
There, I quoted it for you...if that wasn't an implication that people should just kill themselves then I don't know what is...don't play word games with me please, you won't win.
Note that I never said that I have proof of an afterlife either...I simply said that your faith in nothing has nothing to offer me, whereas my faith has something to offer you...If you are right and I am wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity as nothing, and my life never meant anything...and the same goes for you. But if I am right and you are wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity happy and my life actually meant something.
I'll take my chances with faith in God...since faith in nothing has nothing to offer.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Thank you for helping me prove my own point on the after-death thing. You're absolutely right, I have no factual information whatsoever about what happens to you when you die. The thing is, neither do Catholics, nor any other religion for that matter, which is why I hate when the church tries to tell me what will happen after I die, and what the consequences will be for my actions.
I've read many books on religion, not much of my knowledge of religion comes from church. Heck, I fall asleep in church half the time.
My outlook on life is pretty bleak. No argument there.
There, I quoted it for you...if that wasn't an implication that people should just kill themselves then I don't know what is...don't play word games with me please, you won't win.
Note that I never said that I have proof of an afterlife either...I simply said that your faith in nothing has nothing to offer me, whereas my faith has something to offer you...If you are right and I am wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity as nothing, and my life never meant anything...and the same goes for you. But if I am right and you are wrong, then I spend the rest of eternity happy and my life actually meant something.
I'll take my chances with faith in God...since faith in nothing has nothing to offer.
I quoted it too, oh boy. There was no implication at all that people should kill themselves; the point that I was trying (and apparently unsuccessfully) to make was that if a random person were to come up to you and put a gun to your head, would you be afraid or say "I look forward to heaven"? Committing suicide could be taken from that, I guess...sorta...not really...
Word games? That's completely non-sequitor.
"Spend the rest of eternity happy"...Happiness is an emotion. Emotions are simply an intense neural impulse-produced mental state that arises subjectively rather than through conscious effort and evokes either a positive or negative physchological response to move an organism to action. So if that's what you want, okay.
Faith in nothing has nothing to offer? Hardly. Faith in nothing opens up a whole new world of freedom. No rules dictating whether you go to heaven or hell, nothing in the back of your mind preventing you from doing things that "God" wouldn't like. It lets you "live life to the fullest", as they say. I'm not saying that I feel completely unrestricted though, and I wouldn't go around causing chaos and dischord, because I am still bound by the rules of society and government. But it takes away restrictions that would otherwise have you binding yourself through your beliefs.
Chaotic? Perhaps, but I too am willing to take my chances.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Being afraid to die is different than not wanting to die...so your analogy isn't valid anyway...if someone holds a gun to your head, of course you're going to be scared, not very many people are so calm that when a gun goes to their head they would be able to think "it's okay, I'll go to Heaven" and that's natural...I wouldn't say that I am afraid to die..does that mean that I want to die? Of course not.
As for the whole emotion thing...you're right in a strictly physical sense...but since you don't seem to believe in any sort of dimension but the physical one, it is pointless for me to argue with you about it...what I said still stands though, your faith has nothing to offer me...if I thought that I would be gaining something from believing in a meaningless existance then maybe I would...but I'm not that pesimistic.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I like arguing about religion cause it's impossible to ever win an argument about something that has no proof of or against it. It's more fun than arguing about something with a definetive answer like algebra or calculus, that stuff is boring.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this in your signature.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.