Originally posted by Awakened I am of the personal belief that once we've gone into a war, it's the people's duty to support our government even if we disagree with it. Making your voice heard if you disapprove is acceptable, but bashing the government over and over after you've made your point is overkill and makes us as a nation look bad. It's kind of like having manners with the freedom of speech or right to protest, just because you have the physical ability to do something without repercussion doesn't mean that you necessarily should.
Very good post. I agree 100%. When the world sees people in the US protesting and marching against the war, it does make our Nation look bad. Especially when you see some of our movie celebrities bash our president and personally protest the war. Sometimes it just makes me sick.
"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.
Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with an its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured. "
-Martin Luther King Jr.
Dialogue is important in our country - it is essential. The men and women who stand for the voice of dissent in this country show that America is not one-dimensional, that it entertains the thoughts and ideas of its citizens, that it reflects upon its actions through national discourse. It shows people in foreign countries that America does not respond to the beck and call of one man and his political party, that we are a country of opinions, ideas and most importantly, of dissent.
I know Bush's term is almost up, but hopefully our next president will have the strength and fortitude that Bush has now. Actually, I think Bill O'Reilly should run for President.
What you interpret as fortitude is merely obstinance. I wish that President Bush and the Republican Party made the effort to reach out to the other side. In 2004, 49% of the country voted for his opponent, John Kerry - just under half of the country disagreed with his policy, just under half of this country wants a significant policy shift in Iraq. Cheney interpreted this as a "mandate". I wish that the Republican Party sought to include more Democrats, that votes were not merely along Partisan lines, and that the spirit of discourse and compromise was omnipresent. Maybe then, our policy would be shift. If our President shows willingness to compromise, then I'll stop pointing out his stubbornness.
As for Bill-O'Reilly: If outfctrl's imaginary GOP is O'Reilly/Hannity, then my imaginary ownage party is Stewart/Colbert. Bring it on!
I think war protesting is wrong, but I also think supporting a war that is for the wrong reasons is wrong as well. I think that most people can have and opinion on the subject whether it is for it or not for it, but just keep it to them selves. Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
well i dont agree with the WAR but as long as we are there might as well finish the job so our children dont have to clean up the pieces like Good Ole BOY Bush Sr. did....
Well I am a Canuck that is totaly against the war, I think it was executed in the worst way possible with the worst possible planners. I really think if they had left Iraq alone and even under Saddam Hussein the Iraqi people wouldnt be suffering as much as they have been for the past few years. If 650k people really died as a result of the war then GW Bush and the top dogs of his admin should be tried as war criminals and sentanced to death like the Nazi's.
That doesnt mean I dont respect the american troops because they just do what they are told and aside from a few bad incedents the most of them are just trying to get the job done and go home. The sad part is they have no clear plan to finish the job thanks to inept war planning on the higher ups who mostly never seen combat themselves. The Americans will want to forget all about this war when its over because its caused nothing but national shame and anti-American sentiment around the world.
Originally posted by Slickinfinit The sad part is they have no clear plan to finish the job thanks to inept war planning on the higher ups who mostly never seen combat themselves. The Americans will want to forget all about this war when its over because its caused nothing but national shame and anti-American sentiment around the world.
I think that the personality of this or that president, and in this case President George W. Bush, does make a difference, but all presidents of this country, because of our power, are targets of caricature and ridicule. To some extent, even Bill Clinton was taken over the international coals. So I think a different style of diplomacy emanating from the White House will make a difference. But I think this is a problem that is much deeper than the personality of George W. Bush and I would contrast this anti-America moment with the kind of anti-American episodes of the Cold War.
Because the Cold War is over and there is no sort of negative alternative out there [like the Soviet Union], we remain the single superpower and so all eyes are on us and so what we do and what we don't do really matters and there's no sort of negative contrast out there. But also, it's not just Bush, it's not just Iraq.
Originally posted by outfctrl Originally posted by Slickinfinit The sad part is they have no clear plan to finish the job thanks to inept war planning on the higher ups who mostly never seen combat themselves. The Americans will want to forget all about this war when its over because its caused nothing but national shame and anti-American sentiment around the world.
I think that the personality of this or that president, and in this case President George W. Bush, does make a difference, but all presidents of this country, because of our power, are targets of caricature and ridicule. To some extent, even Bill Clinton was taken over the international coals. So I think a different style of diplomacy emanating from the White House will make a difference. But I think this is a problem that is much deeper than the personality of George W. Bush and I would contrast this anti-America moment with the kind of anti-American episodes of the Cold War.
Because the Cold War is over and there is no sort of negative alternative out there [like the Soviet Union], we remain the single superpower and so all eyes are on us and so what we do and what we don't do really matters and there's no sort of negative contrast out there. But also, it's not just Bush, it's not just Iraq.
You're partially right, but the main reason remains and that is Iraq. US completely overrun UN by attacking Iraq, most of Europe and Asia were against it. After 9/11 USA had the world symphathy, a major political advantage if used right. Unfortunately Bush&co flushed all that down the drain by attacking Iraq.
So its not really exaggerating (sp?) to say that Bush&co is mostly responsible for the current anti-american movement.
Originally posted by SnaKey We are still getting hit just a frequent as vietnam or korea.
Not very likely is it?
In Iraq we are fighting an insurgency, sporadic ambushes, bombings and sniper attacks. In Korea it was pitched battles with thousands and thousands of superior armed communists all at the same time.
If you don't know how strong M1A1s are, let me put it to you this way: There is not a hand held weapon on the face of the earth that can take out an M1A1 Tank.
There are loads of them.
M1A1's have been taken out by RPG7 in Iraq. It's a 30 year old tank. The gun is newer, the sights and the networking systems the armour surrounding the gun at the front of the turret upgraded at the same time. The rest just rolled steel.
One famous M1A1 in Iraq was taken out during a thunder run by an AK47 round to the radiator grill in the rear. The engine overheated and it burst into flames. The tank was abandoned and then recovered at a later stage.
For decent armour you need to look at the later Russian and European tanks with all over Chobam, reactive, grilling and anti missile sytems.
No armour, neither mechanised nor personal is unkillable. Least of all the immensely heavy dinosaur armour the M1A1 is dragging around with itself.
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The reason your casualties are going up is because you have all recently started patroling/operations in Bagdad and Ramadi again instead of just staying in your bases. You changed your tactics.
You're talking theory, I'm not... which you're not even really talking theory... you're just assuming. I am being trained to go over there by people who have been over there. They are getting deployed in 10 months for the second time. I'm not going, because I'm also training to be an officer, but I still have to train with my unit while they prepare to go over.
I hope to god you are not being trained by the same people who told you there isn't a hand held weapon in Iraq that can penetrate an M1A1.
Originally posted by viadi Its not so much that I'm anti war Its just we live in a democracy the main aim of our collective governments should be to protect its people. The "war on terror" fails to do that. Instead it makes us a big fat target and radicalises more people to act against us. Besides its not really a war as such its more like a movementthere are no battle lines other than the ones we made for ourselvesby invading Iraq and Afghanistan. I suppose as an after thought we should ask ourselves this. Other than beating off an aggressive country/state like Hitlers Germany should we ever go to war at all? And if we need to should we not make sure its done quickly and properly. Rather than what we have done in Iraq?
You've been a big fat target for the last 60 years. You did well to get away with it for as long as you did.
But yes, Iraq will aggravate more. However leaving Iraq won't stop it either.
"there are no battle lines other than the ones we made for ourselves".
The initiative was ours. It still is, we can invade other countries without retaliation too. It's when the others decide on where the battlelines are that things are going wrong.
You're partially right, but the main reason remains and that is Iraq. US completely overrun UN by attacking Iraq, most of Europe and Asia were against it. After 9/11 USA had the world symphathy, a major political advantage if used right. Unfortunately Bush&co flushed all that down the drain by attacking Iraq.
So its not really exaggerating (sp?) to say that Bush&co is mostly responsible for the current anti-american movement.
That's where it all started.
After 9/11 America turned all Nazi. Before that it was all Silicon Valley dream. Disney world, San Francisco California and the oportunity to work hard and get rich. High technology and astronaut training. Now it's all terror, racism and war. The love affair is over.
It's not just Iraq, it's an internet full of people hating foreigners and muslims etc. It's Guantanamo Bay, it's all the threats and religious zeal coming out of the White House. It's the ill mannered/totally paranoid guards at the international airport. Iraq however encapsulates most of it quite nicely. America's attitude to foreigners. On display for all the world to see. And yes, Bush is a big part of it. He is your leader he speaks for you. And we all know that he got re-elected and that, broadly speaking, 4/10 U.S. citizens think like him.
You're partially right, but the main reason remains and that is Iraq. US completely overrun UN by attacking Iraq, most of Europe and Asia were against it. After 9/11 USA had the world symphathy, a major political advantage if used right. Unfortunately Bush&co flushed all that down the drain by attacking Iraq.
So its not really exaggerating (sp?) to say that Bush&co is mostly responsible for the current anti-american movement.
That's where it all started.
After 9/11 America turned all Nazi. Before that it was all Silicon Valley dream. Disney world, San Francisco California and the oportunity to work hard and get rich. High technology and astronaut training. Now it's all terror, racism and war. The love affair is over.
It's not just Iraq, it's an internet full of people hating foreigners and muslims etc. It's Guantanamo Bay, it's all the threats and religious zeal coming out of the White House. It's the ill mannered/totally paranoid guards at the international airport. Iraq however encapsulates most of it quite nicely. America's attitude to foreigners. On display for all the world to see. And yes, Bush is a big part of it. He is your leader he speaks for you. And we all know that he got re-elected and that, broadly speaking, 4/10 U.S. citizens think like him.
Do you live in America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject? Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all... The voice of the ignorant is often louder than the voice of the wise. Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority. Sorry if I came off as rude, I'm sure you as an individual are a smart person, but your post didn't seem well thought out or intelligent in conception.
If you arent American, please take my advice and dont believe everything you see on the news. If you are American, please take some time to get to know your fellow countrymen better.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Do you live in America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject? Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all... The voice of the ignorant is often louder than the voice of the wise. Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority.
If you're going to say that he's wrong, then you should prove what you're saying, too.
You're partially right, but the main reason remains and that is Iraq. US completely overrun UN by attacking Iraq,
Maybe the fact that we pay a full quarter of the UN's total expenditures means that we have some say as to what the hell we do with our own military? Just a thought.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Do you live in America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject? Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all... The voice of the ignorant is often louder than the voice of the wise. Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority.
If you're going to say that he's wrong, then you should prove what you're saying, too.
Why did you say "too"? He never proved anything, his entire post was based on opinion, so I responded appropriatly.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Do you live in America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject? Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all... The voice of the ignorant is often louder than the voice of the wise. Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority.
Why did you say "too"? He never proved anything, his entire post was based on opinion, so I responded appropriatly.
You said, "Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all". That's what I'm referring to. I guess 'too' was unjustified, but I'd definitely like proof of that statement.
Originally posted by Draenor Maybe the fact that we pay a full quarter of the UN's total expenditures means that we have some say as to what the hell we do with our own military? Just a thought.
Of course we do! We can do whatever we want with our millitary - it's just that we can either choose to support the idea of the United Nations, or we can abandon it and do whatever we want. Obviously, you believe that we should screw the U.N. and do what we want, but that's the choice: either stick to the idea of the United Nations or every nation for itself.
Originally posted by Draenor Maybe the fact that we pay a full quarter of the UN's total expenditures means that we have some say as to what the hell we do with our own military? Just a thought.
Of course we do! We can do whatever we want with our millitary - it's just that we can either choose to support the idea of the United Nations, or we can abandon it and do whatever we want. Obviously, you believe that we should screw the U.N. and do what we want, but that's the choice: either stick to the idea of the United Nations or every nation for itself.
If the UN had a proven record of getting things done, then I would agree that we should stick with them, but their record has shown nothing but incompitence on a massive scale on the most important issues.
Geraldo Rivera said something interesting today that I think Bush really might want to consider...Have the Iraqis take a vote about what to do with US involvement in their country...they can vote for slow withdrawl with a certain date for complete removal, immediate withdrawl, or to stay until a next election is held...that way Bush is doing what the Iraqi people feel is best for THEIR country...discuss
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Awakened Do you live in America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject? Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all... The voice of the ignorant is often louder than the voice of the wise. Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority.
Why did you say "too"? He never proved anything, his entire post was based on opinion, so I responded appropriatly.
You said, "Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all". That's what I'm referring to. I guess 'too' was unjustified, but I'd definitely like proof of that statement. I'll tell you what, I'll explain myself as soon as someone gives me a reason to believe otherwise.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority.
But it does mean that the silent majority don't object to their views enough to shut them up or teach them different.
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With respect to Iraq and Afghanistan, do Americans respect the rights of other countries to live free within the tenets and customs of their own societies, or do they offer them democracy on pain of death. Embrace American beliefs or die. Doesn't much sound like a nation in love to me.
America doesn't appreciate foreigners. The American way is always best. Here is an example.
Do you live in <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 />America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject?
My experience of America is automatically invalidated by my status as a foreigner. If any uneducated foreigner should dare to criticise America, no matter how good a friend, that critiscism will never be accepted. You are no different from any of the others.
It may only be the voices of the mental few the rest of the world hears the loudest, but that voice is very loud. And those few are very numerous and often in a position to act on their intolerances. A percentage that large doesn't grow up in isolation of the attitudes and beliefs of it's peers and society. America is an enviroment where those voices are tolerated and given the right to speak. They are fostered and encouraged to do so.
Where I come from "the ignorant" don't get a voice. We lock them up before they can be taken seriously or spread their malevolence to others.
Nations are different. I don't have to come from that nation to recognise the differences between it and my own.
I hope our troops win, since Bush seems to want to keep them over there against any reasoning. And I support our troops no matter what. They are following orders.
But I realistically don't see this going anywhere positive. It just keeps getting worse. So, it's not cutting and running when the reality of it is that we're losing. It's a strategic retreat from a failed policy.
I could care less what the islamo-fascists think or say about our courage. Their taunts don't mean crap to me. And their opinions mean even less. What I do care about is us fighting a war that isn't worth fighting or losing men over.
Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority.
But it does mean that the silent majority don't object to their views enough to shut them up or teach them different.
The "silent" majority does object to their views, but there's little we can physically do to silence them. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure what you really want those of us who don't share those views to do... And we teach tolerance and respect in the earliest stages of school all the way out into the real world, but we cannot control what parents teach their child outside of the system's sight.
With respect to <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 />Iraq and Afghanistan, do Americans respect the rights of other countries to live free within the tenets and customs of their own societies, or do they offer them democracy on pain of death. Embrace American beliefs or die. Doesn't much sound like a nation in love to me.
America does try to spread democracy, and admittedly, there are some cases where force was used. You could argue that those instances were uncalled for, but what country hasn't done something uncalled for? The larger your nation the more attention you get - it's part of the joy and pains of being American. Of course most people blame the president specifically for those errors, and rightfully so.
Were not perfect, weve done some things as a nation, that as a nation were not proud of, but what has happened has happened and all we can do is live and learn from it. It should be noted though that democracy is not an American belief, it's a belief shared by many countries - were just the only one really capable of trying to spread it to the masses aside from maybe Britain. Whether or not the idea of spreading democracy is good or bad Well, we can discuss that in another thread if you like.
America doesn't appreciate foreigners. The American way is always best. Here is an example.
Do you live in America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject?
My experience of America is automatically invalidated by my status as a foreigner. If any uneducated foreigner should dare to criticise America, no matter how good a friend, that critiscism will never be accepted. You are no different from any of the others.
I don't know what country you belong to, but if I just started bashing the entire country based on a couple of bad experiences, wouldn't you be offended? There's nothing wrong with pride. It's not that I don't respect you as a person as much as I don't appreciate your views, which clearly, I see as flawed. For the record, I work a plant with over 1,000 employees, many of them born in other countries, none of them have a reason to believe I don't respect them, nor have any of them give me a reason not to. It's my belief that you've read too much into internet posters, who generally speaking, are assholes regardless of their country of origin.
It may only be the voices of the mental few the rest of the world hears the loudest, but that voice is very loud. And those few are very numerous and often in a position to act on their intolerances. A percentage that large doesn't grow up in isolation of the attitudes and beliefs of it's peers and society. America is an enviroment where those voices are tolerated and given the right to speak. They are fostered and encouraged to do so.
I don't disagree with this, though I would like to keep it in perspective. There are over 300 million people residing here in the US, how many account for this "very numerous" group that you're speaking of? I once lived in a little town where black people and foreigners simply didn't exist. When spoken of, they were not talked about with high regard and racial slurs were very common. This made me realize the importance of not being ignorant and respecting other cultures. Since moving to other parts of the US I have learned that the majority of the population does not share those hateful views. I can say that with confidence, and firmly believe it. I am genuinely sorry if your encounters with Americans has not been so fortunate - they embarrass me you see, I am ashamed of them and must love them at the same time. Like a brother loves a brother and hates him all the same. If I do snap at someone from another country, its only out of frustration. Im not sure if you realize how much negativity we hear on a daily basis. Once you hear people trying to blame America for tidal waves and accuse America of Global Warming, well, you just get numb to the accusations after a while I suppose.
Where I come from "the ignorant" don't get a voice. We lock them up before they can be taken seriously or spread their malevolence to others.
Must be nice.
Nations are different. I don't have to come from that nation to recognise the differences between it and my own.
You certainly don't. But you do have to live in a nation to understand its culture and sociological processes properly. Again, I don't know what country you're from, but I wouldn't expect to understand its mindset well enough to judge its people without spending a significant amount of time there.
Just to clarify one more time, I dont dislike you or think youre stupid. If I was offensive in my remarks then I apologize, but its hard to debate something like this and not hit a nerve.
Ever heard the saying a few bad apples ruins it for the whole bunch? It is an unfortunate truth, and I hope you dont judge an entire peoples based on their few, but if you do I wont hold it against you most of the world does.
Sorry if there's any spelling errors, too tired to check it all.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Originally posted by Nierro Bush said that there were ties to 9/11 in Iraq. Couldn't find them. Then he said we were the finding WMDs. Couldn't find them. Now we're there "freeing" them.
What is the civillian body count now, 500,000? I think we're doing Saddams job for him.
I'm not against the troops, i'm against the war.
Thats a Lie. Bush never said that Iraq had ties to 9/11. Do your research before you run your trap. Bush said that Iraq had ties to Terrorism. Not 9/11.
It's a good thing our Grandparents didnt have your attitude during WW2 when we kicked Hitler's arse. Look at how many civilians died in that war. But it was necessary to stop Hitler. Germany didnt attack us. Just like Iraq never attacked us. But thankfully our Grandparents recognized how dangerous Hitler was and took him out.
Comments
Very good post. I agree 100%. When the world sees people in the US protesting and marching against the war, it does make our Nation look bad. Especially when you see some of our movie celebrities bash our president and personally protest the war. Sometimes it just makes me sick.
"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.
Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with an its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured. "
-Martin Luther King Jr.
Dialogue is important in our country - it is essential. The men and women who stand for the voice of dissent in this country show that America is not one-dimensional, that it entertains the thoughts and ideas of its citizens, that it reflects upon its actions through national discourse. It shows people in foreign countries that America does not respond to the beck and call of one man and his political party, that we are a country of opinions, ideas and most importantly, of dissent.
I know Bush's term is almost up, but hopefully our next president will have the strength and fortitude that Bush has now. Actually, I think Bill O'Reilly should run for President.
What you interpret as fortitude is merely obstinance. I wish that President Bush and the Republican Party made the effort to reach out to the other side. In 2004, 49% of the country voted for his opponent, John Kerry - just under half of the country disagreed with his policy, just under half of this country wants a significant policy shift in Iraq. Cheney interpreted this as a "mandate". I wish that the Republican Party sought to include more Democrats, that votes were not merely along Partisan lines, and that the spirit of discourse and compromise was omnipresent. Maybe then, our policy would be shift. If our President shows willingness to compromise, then I'll stop pointing out his stubbornness.
As for Bill-O'Reilly: If outfctrl's imaginary GOP is O'Reilly/Hannity, then my imaginary ownage party is Stewart/Colbert. Bring it on!
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
Yup, this is it. So, the final determination is that war protesting is wrong. I am right and everyone is wrong.
I think war protesting is wrong, but I also think supporting a war that is for the wrong reasons is wrong as well. I think that most people can have and opinion on the subject whether it is for it or not for it, but just keep it to them selves. Bring it on down now.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
well i dont agree with the WAR but as long as we are there might as well finish the job so our children dont have to clean up the pieces like Good Ole BOY Bush Sr. did....
Well I am a Canuck that is totaly against the war, I think it was executed in the worst way possible with the worst possible planners. I really think if they had left Iraq alone and even under Saddam Hussein the Iraqi people wouldnt be suffering as much as they have been for the past few years. If 650k people really died as a result of the war then GW Bush and the top dogs of his admin should be tried as war criminals and sentanced to death like the Nazi's.
That doesnt mean I dont respect the american troops because they just do what they are told and aside from a few bad incedents the most of them are just trying to get the job done and go home. The sad part is they have no clear plan to finish the job thanks to inept war planning on the higher ups who mostly never seen combat themselves. The Americans will want to forget all about this war when its over because its caused nothing but national shame and anti-American sentiment around the world.
{(RIP)} SWG
I think that the personality of this or that president, and in this case President George W. Bush, does make a difference, but all presidents of this country, because of our power, are targets of caricature and ridicule. To some extent, even Bill Clinton was taken over the international coals. So I think a different style of diplomacy emanating from the White House will make a difference. But I think this is a problem that is much deeper than the personality of George W. Bush and I would contrast this anti-America moment with the kind of anti-American episodes of the Cold War.
Because the Cold War is over and there is no sort of negative alternative out there [like the Soviet Union], we remain the single superpower and so all eyes are on us and so what we do and what we don't do really matters and there's no sort of negative contrast out there. But also, it's not just Bush, it's not just Iraq.
I think that the personality of this or that president, and in this case President George W. Bush, does make a difference, but all presidents of this country, because of our power, are targets of caricature and ridicule. To some extent, even Bill Clinton was taken over the international coals. So I think a different style of diplomacy emanating from the White House will make a difference. But I think this is a problem that is much deeper than the personality of George W. Bush and I would contrast this anti-America moment with the kind of anti-American episodes of the Cold War.
Because the Cold War is over and there is no sort of negative alternative out there [like the Soviet Union], we remain the single superpower and so all eyes are on us and so what we do and what we don't do really matters and there's no sort of negative contrast out there. But also, it's not just Bush, it's not just Iraq.
You're partially right, but the main reason remains and that is Iraq. US completely overrun UN by attacking Iraq, most of Europe and Asia were against it. After 9/11 USA had the world symphathy, a major political advantage if used right. Unfortunately Bush&co flushed all that down the drain by attacking Iraq.
So its not really exaggerating (sp?) to say that Bush&co is mostly responsible for the current anti-american movement.
Not very likely is it?
In Iraq we are fighting an insurgency, sporadic ambushes, bombings and sniper attacks. In Korea it was pitched battles with thousands and thousands of superior armed communists all at the same time.
There are loads of them.
M1A1's have been taken out by RPG7 in Iraq. It's a 30 year old tank. The gun is newer, the sights and the networking systems the armour surrounding the gun at the front of the turret upgraded at the same time. The rest just rolled steel.
One famous M1A1 in Iraq was taken out during a thunder run by an AK47 round to the radiator grill in the rear. The engine overheated and it burst into flames. The tank was abandoned and then recovered at a later stage.
For decent armour you need to look at the later Russian and European tanks with all over Chobam, reactive, grilling and anti missile sytems.
No armour, neither mechanised nor personal is unkillable. Least of all the immensely heavy dinosaur armour the M1A1 is dragging around with itself.
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The reason your casualties are going up is because you have all recently started patroling/operations in Bagdad and Ramadi again instead of just staying in your bases. You changed your tactics.
Stay out of the cities.
You've been a big fat target for the last 60 years. You did well to get away with it for as long as you did.
But yes, Iraq will aggravate more. However leaving Iraq won't stop it either.
"there are no battle lines other than the ones we made for ourselves".
The initiative was ours. It still is, we can invade other countries without retaliation too. It's when the others decide on where the battlelines are that things are going wrong.
That's where it all started.
After 9/11 America turned all Nazi. Before that it was all Silicon Valley dream. Disney world, San Francisco California and the oportunity to work hard and get rich. High technology and astronaut training. Now it's all terror, racism and war. The love affair is over.
It's not just Iraq, it's an internet full of people hating foreigners and muslims etc. It's Guantanamo Bay, it's all the threats and religious zeal coming out of the White House. It's the ill mannered/totally paranoid guards at the international airport. Iraq however encapsulates most of it quite nicely. America's attitude to foreigners. On display for all the world to see. And yes, Bush is a big part of it. He is your leader he speaks for you. And we all know that he got re-elected and that, broadly speaking, 4/10 U.S. citizens think like him.
That's where it all started.
After 9/11 America turned all Nazi. Before that it was all Silicon Valley dream. Disney world, San Francisco California and the oportunity to work hard and get rich. High technology and astronaut training. Now it's all terror, racism and war. The love affair is over.
It's not just Iraq, it's an internet full of people hating foreigners and muslims etc. It's Guantanamo Bay, it's all the threats and religious zeal coming out of the White House. It's the ill mannered/totally paranoid guards at the international airport. Iraq however encapsulates most of it quite nicely. America's attitude to foreigners. On display for all the world to see. And yes, Bush is a big part of it. He is your leader he speaks for you. And we all know that he got re-elected and that, broadly speaking, 4/10 U.S. citizens think like him.
Do you live in America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject? Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all... The voice of the ignorant is often louder than the voice of the wise. Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority. Sorry if I came off as rude, I'm sure you as an individual are a smart person, but your post didn't seem well thought out or intelligent in conception.
If you arent American, please take my advice and dont believe everything you see on the news. If you are American, please take some time to get to know your fellow countrymen better.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
Maybe the fact that we pay a full quarter of the UN's total expenditures means that we have some say as to what the hell we do with our own military? Just a thought.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
If the UN had a proven record of getting things done, then I would agree that we should stick with them, but their record has shown nothing but incompitence on a massive scale on the most important issues.
Geraldo Rivera said something interesting today that I think Bush really might want to consider...Have the Iraqis take a vote about what to do with US involvement in their country...they can vote for slow withdrawl with a certain date for complete removal, immediate withdrawl, or to stay until a next election is held...that way Bush is doing what the Iraqi people feel is best for THEIR country...discuss
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
You said, "Most Americans don't hate foreigners at all". That's what I'm referring to. I guess 'too' was unjustified, but I'd definitely like proof of that statement.
I'll tell you what, I'll explain myself as soon as someone gives me a reason to believe otherwise.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Just because more people make their hateful views more vocal doesn't mean they speak for the majority.
But it does mean that the silent majority don't object to their views enough to shut them up or teach them different.
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With respect to Iraq and Afghanistan, do Americans respect the rights of other countries to live free within the tenets and customs of their own societies, or do they offer them democracy on pain of death. Embrace American beliefs or die. Doesn't much sound like a nation in love to me.
America doesn't appreciate foreigners. The American way is always best. Here is an example.
Do you live in <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 />America? It doesnt appear that you do by your post. If not, what makes you such an expert on the subject?
My experience of America is automatically invalidated by my status as a foreigner. If any uneducated foreigner should dare to criticise America, no matter how good a friend, that critiscism will never be accepted. You are no different from any of the others.
It may only be the voices of the mental few the rest of the world hears the loudest, but that voice is very loud. And those few are very numerous and often in a position to act on their intolerances. A percentage that large doesn't grow up in isolation of the attitudes and beliefs of it's peers and society. America is an enviroment where those voices are tolerated and given the right to speak. They are fostered and encouraged to do so.
Where I come from "the ignorant" don't get a voice. We lock them up before they can be taken seriously or spread their malevolence to others.
Nations are different. I don't have to come from that nation to recognise the differences between it and my own.
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
I'm still against the war.
I hope our troops win, since Bush seems to want to keep them over there against any reasoning. And I support our troops no matter what. They are following orders.
But I realistically don't see this going anywhere positive. It just keeps getting worse. So, it's not cutting and running when the reality of it is that we're losing. It's a strategic retreat from a failed policy.
I could care less what the islamo-fascists think or say about our courage. Their taunts don't mean crap to me. And their opinions mean even less. What I do care about is us fighting a war that isn't worth fighting or losing men over.
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What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Thats a Lie. Bush never said that Iraq had ties to 9/11. Do your research before you run your trap. Bush said that Iraq had ties to Terrorism. Not 9/11.
It's a good thing our Grandparents didnt have your attitude during WW2 when we kicked Hitler's arse. Look at how many civilians died in that war. But it was necessary to stop Hitler. Germany didnt attack us. Just like Iraq never attacked us. But thankfully our Grandparents recognized how dangerous Hitler was and took him out.
Just sit back and stop your whining.