The original poster clearly stated he was a casual player. I see no problem with an editorial when they specifically state their experience. This was probably a decent summation of WoW from a very casual players perspective, because a casual player probably wont care much about the details. Fun, properly functioning and lots of other player to play with is probably all they really need to know. I think it would probably be better if they had another editorial with a Hard Core Gammers perspective, especially on this site. That way the user could decide which catagory they fit into and decide which editorial applies to them.
Originally posted by SnaKey PVE: Nothing exceptional here. Mob sees you, it attacks. Sneak in and drag one out with a range weapon or a Hunter's pet from around corners and none of the other mobs even seem to notice their their buddy just got shot in the face.
This statement here is just way way off. I have to assume here that you didnt get very far in WoW. 90% of the time spent by hard core gamers in WoW is in the 40 man RAID instances. Those PVE instances are extremely challenging. They require strategy, teamwork, skill, timing and many other things to get through them. MOST hardcore gamers in WOW still have not beat 6mo to 1yr old content yet. The main reason being its difficult to find 40 hardcore gamers to beat the instances with. Without guides its even more difficult. It only becomes somewhat beatable with the use of step by step guides read from other hardcore gaming sites. Even a casual group using these guides trying to beat 2yr old content would find it very challenging. Some of the reasons its challenging is the multiple boss mobs each have special abilities, strenghts and weaknesses. Even knowing the weaknesses (which are difficult to discern without someone telling you) its hard to get everyone in the raid to work together to exploit them. The reason why people are running the same instances a billion times, is because they are running lower "easier" instances due to the others being too difficult for them to figure out, so therefore they are trying to get any advantage they can, namely gear and guild raid experience, while thier guild gets sufficient knowledge and skill to beat the harder instances.
Trust me, you dont have to be "hardcore" to succeed end game with WoW. Ive played nearly every class in MC,BWL,AQ.. Its not really that hard, and theres not too much skill involved, you just follow a basic pattern to down a boss. Then you are rewarded with 2-3 epics... rinse and repeat
It only takes a few hours, and half a brain to raid endgame..
MMMMMkay... What you guys gotta understand is.....
WoW does NOT have 7+ million subscribers!
(Not that you said there were 7 million subscribers, but most fans use this as an argument on why wow is the best)
They have 7 million customers.......... Please, think for a moment, do you really think there are 7 MILLION WoW accounts active?
They calculate that by anyone who has tried the game, trial accounts, bought accounts, even people in asia who have played the game. (accounts that are banned, compromised, and inactive are counted)
There was a thread about this some months back if anyone remebers.....
Btw im not flaming WoW in any way. Ive been playing off and on since beta. The only reason that I keep playing is probally because of my friends playing.... If it werent for them I would have dumped WoW a long time ago.
I really wish i could travel back in time and play the early days of WoW... When there was no instanced PvP... People would spam for world PvP raid groups and attack towns and cities... There were few 60's per server, raiding endgame was almost non existant... No civilians, no honor, no DKP, just pure WoW fun.
Anyone remember the early days of WoW?
geez this again....
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition
World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
MMMMMkay... What you guys gotta understand is..... WoW does NOT have 7+ million subscribers! (Not that you said there were 7 million subscribers, but most fans use this as an argument on why wow is the best) They have 7 million customers.......... Please, think for a moment, do you really think there are 7 MILLION WoW accounts active? They calculate that by anyone who has tried the game, trial accounts, bought accounts, even people in asia who have played the game. (accounts that are banned, compromised, and inactive are counted) There was a thread about this some months back if anyone remebers..... Btw im not flaming WoW in any way. Ive been playing off and on since beta. The only reason that I keep playing is probally because of my friends playing.... If it werent for them I would have dumped WoW a long time ago. I really wish i could travel back in time and play the early days of WoW... When there was no instanced PvP... People would spam for world PvP raid groups and attack towns and cities... There were few 60's per server, raiding endgame was almost non existant... No civilians, no honor, no DKP, just pure WoW fun. Anyone remember the early days of WoW?
geez this again....
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Yes and?
My point was people seem to think that 7+ million people are currently subscribed...
What i mean by customers are people that have made an account, people that have "tried" WoW, and either still play or no longer play.
The review was made for casaul gammers by a casaul gamers
WoW is one of the BEST CASAUL GAMER game around, it only gets ennoying in the end game
Personally i still think Blizzard just didn't bother about making a descent end-game.
They made a casaul friendly game, the whole game speaks "casaul gamer" peeps getting too max level are just the minimum to keep ehm going until they final have made the end game which they apperantly for sales reason are calling "expansion". And i thoughed microsoft marketing was good wel Blizzard is getting as good as microsoft in it very fast
Originally posted by Kryogenic I read this article "World of Warcraft: Two Casual Years Later" and am really disapointed in it. For the most part, when there's an editiorial from this site, it's balanced with insights on the pros and cons of a game. This editorial, however, made me wanna puke. WoW is a good game don't get me wrong, but it's really freakin repeatative. The redundancy of running the same few instances, at end game, over and over, ad nauseum, is insane. Not to mention the whole itemization, versus player experience and skill. I'm an oldschool gamer. Back in the day, it was skill that set you apart from fellow gamers. It was skill that challenged and fueled tournaments and endless gaming sessions. Granted, it does take a minimal amount of skill to be a good WoW player, BUT that being said... The game falls flat with it's dependency on itemization. The game rewards people for mindlessly repeating the same instances over and over and over and over. Not to mention the basic startegy for almost every single instance is the same. Yeah, there are some nuances and variations, but basically the same. I played WoW in beta for a really long time before it went live so maybe I just burned out before most others. All in all, I'm just not that impressed by WoW anymore. I do remeber playing that game everyday, and I log in every once in a while for ten mintues tops. I can't seem to get into it, and I certainly don't enjoy sitting infront of my damn computer for 3-5 hours to go through an instance. I understand that the expansion will bring a change in the way honor and PvP works, new battlegrounds, higher lvl cap, 2 new races, and a new profession. When all that goes live then maybe my interest in that game will be sparked once more... but as of right now, WoW is not as great as the author of this editorial paints it out to be, at least not to me.
That itemzation your talking about has little relevance for a casaul gamer sisn that only gets intresting with max level
The fact is WoW is a good casaul gamer game but it's just half finished they trowhn ing heavy itemzzation as they did with diablo II and kept the community playing for two years so the could develop a descent end game.
The review just doesn't appeal to you because your obvious not a casaul gamer sins a casaul gamer won't even do a high level instance for the first 3 to 6 months.
I don't even consider myself a reall casaul gamer with my 2 till 4 hours of gamming a day i played the game for 5 months total and my main char never reached max level.
Originally posted by SnaKey Why is this guy on the MMORPG.com staff? "As a casual player I should have long since gotten bored and moved on. It only took 6 months with EverQuest, six months with Asheron's Call, three days with Ultima Online, three months with World War II Online and Planetside and about a year with Star Wars Galaxies." He has played 1 real MMO for a decent amount of time and his "expertise" in the MMO market is extremely limited. If he was a real critic, then he would have at least 20 different games on that list. I can name 20 different games I've played longer than a month. Critics are also avid gamers, not "casual players".
You need a casaul gamer to make a casaul gamers review.
The fact that so much hardcore mmorpg react to the review only shows that you can't make a good casaul gamers review unless your a casaul gamer.
A review like this is not to make a good pro cons analyses but a good "i have a different atitude so how do i going to like it" review
If it doesn't appeal to you it would be for one reason! your not a casaul gamer!
sisn it will take a casual gamer to much time to be able to do an instance he probably never ever even going to think about it so he won't run into the same ennoying thigs as you
For the most part, when there's an editiorial from this site, it's balanced with insights on the pros and cons of a game. This editorial, however, made me wanna puke.
Unless I am mistaken, an editorial is defined as "of or relating to an article stating opinions or giving perspectives; 'editorial column' ". (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=editorial). So you can't get too mad at the guy for not being fully objective. He gave HIS opinion and HIS perspective of the game.
And to SnaKey, if the guy's article doesnt match your view, then thats fine. He shouldn't be fired for doing his job.
The author of that editorial shouldn't be working for mmorpg.com, because he isn't experienced with that time of game..
He shouldn't have been hired in the first place, imho.
So if you haven't any casaul gamer on your staff you only represent part of the mmorpg players
BIGGEST part of mmorpg players are casual gammers, they play in there spare time and don't have time to post on these forums but recent research showed 70 percent of mmorpg don't play more then an average of max 2 hours a day.
Nou you say sins they don't have 7 max levels in WoW you think your better suited to make a review
you people are PATHETIC you actaully think a hardcore gamer could write a better review on how the experience of a casaul gamer is which is a part of the game you only spend 10% of your gamming time on because you go by it so fast
BTW - I have over 15 years of gaming experience, and WoW scores higher on my meter than anything else on this site.
The sad fact is that while WoW is not that good, it's better than every other piece of crap this industry has managed to put out, and that's why it has the most subscribers.
I played Eve for 2 years. While it is innovative and unique, it is also about as much fun as watching paint dry. The PVP was boring me to tears. My epiphany came when I fell asleep camping a gate.
WoW pvp might be instanced, but at least I'm at the controls, I'm actively participating, and it's actually fun. And when I die, I don't have to spend the next 2 hours kitting out a new ship. I don't have to grind mobs for cash for a new ship.
I know I can just login for 2 hours, play, and logout. WoW does not take over my life. It is a game for casuals.
There comes a point where you're like...
"Okay...I'm 33....I don't have time to be spending alot of time farming materials, or mining roids, or grinding npc's. And I'm not waiting for the fleet to have some fun. I want to jump in and have some fun for a little while, and jump out."
So my choices were to either give up MMORPG's altogether and go play only FPS games, or to play WoW.
I chose both. Sometimes I play BF2, sometimes I play WoW.
And you're right, WoW is MMORPG-Lite. And that's exactly what the doctor ordered.
MMMMMkay... What you guys gotta understand is..... WoW does NOT have 7+ million subscribers! (Not that you said there were 7 million subscribers, but most fans use this as an argument on why wow is the best) They have 7 million customers.......... Please, think for a moment, do you really think there are 7 MILLION WoW accounts active? They calculate that by anyone who has tried the game, trial accounts, bought accounts, even people in asia who have played the game. (accounts that are banned, compromised, and inactive are counted) There was a thread about this some months back if anyone remebers..... Btw im not flaming WoW in any way. Ive been playing off and on since beta. The only reason that I keep playing is probally because of my friends playing.... If it werent for them I would have dumped WoW a long time ago. I really wish i could travel back in time and play the early days of WoW... When there was no instanced PvP... People would spam for world PvP raid groups and attack towns and cities... There were few 60's per server, raiding endgame was almost non existant... No civilians, no honor, no DKP, just pure WoW fun. Anyone remember the early days of WoW?
geez this again....
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Yes and?
My point was people seem to think that 7+ million people are currently subscribed...
What i mean by customers are people that have made an account, people that have "tried" WoW, and either still play or no longer play.
THERE ARE 7 million people subscribed. READ man, READ!
I played Eve for 2 years. While it is innovative and unique, it is also about as much fun as watching paint dry. The PVP was boring me to tears. My epiphany came when I fell asleep camping a gate.
WoW pvp might be instanced, but at least I'm at the controls, I'm actively participating, and it's actually fun. And when I die, I don't have to spend the next 2 hours kitting out a new ship. I don't have to grind mobs for cash for a new ship.
I know I can just login for 2 hours, play, and logout. WoW does not take over my life. It is a game for casuals.
There comes a point where you're like...
"Okay...I'm 33....I don't have time to be spending alot of time farming materials, or mining roids, or grinding npc's. And I'm not waiting for the fleet to have some fun. I want to jump in and have some fun for a little while, and jump out."
So my choices were to either give up MMORPG's altogether and go play only FPS games, or to play WoW.
I chose both. Sometimes I play BF2, sometimes I play WoW.
And you're right, WoW is MMORPG-Lite. And that's exactly what the doctor ordered.
Indeed. The problem with many of the posters here is that they equate "advanced gamer" with "gamer with a lot of time on his/her hands", and these are two different things.
I also played EVE for over 2 years, and while there were certainly many exciting moments I enjoyed in EVE, looking back on it there was just a ton a literal TON of time sunk into that game, a lot of which was akin to downtime. EVE bills itself as casual friendly because of the skill training system, but in order to make money it takes quite a bit of time, and you need quite a bit of money because of the stiff death penalty and the fact that you need to replace your stuff. PvPing also takes a lot of time, because the vast, vast, vast majority of the time you are "doing PvP" in EVE is spent either waiting for a fight (as in gate camping) or cruising around looking for a fight (as in patrolling), and you can go for hours without actually getting any fight because in EVE numbers are the most important thing in a fight and if the enemy is outnumbered he will run rather than fight unless you stop him first. So while the actual PvP can be fun, "doing PvP" in EVE is very time consuming and requires a lot of downtime, and at the end of the day when I look back on it now, all that downtime wasn't really al that much fun at all, and other games offer much more activity and pace than EVE does.
Back in the days it was skill that set you apart from other players? I will assume you are either talking about something else then MMORPG's, or have a wishfull memory, because an MMORPG never has taken skill, unless you are talking about PVP, where 80% depends on equipment (but hey, thats still 20% playerskill). and yes, that includes UO, don't bother bringing it up. why people even refer to that as "player-skill based" is truly beyond me. most anyone can get most any *uber* piece of equipment in UO with a minimum amount of time and trouble. there's no weeks of repeating the same instance ad nauseum in order to get your gear.
you have 40+ skills and only 700 skill points. you have strength, dexterity and intelligence and only 225 points to put between them. there's no "one" way to build a toon in UO, there's a few dozen ways for any concept you can imagine. if you're a warrior-mage, you're just so-so in both compared to a pure warrior or pure mage. pure warriors have a number of ways they can be built. no matter your build, you can include samurai, paladin, necromancer, or ninja skills.
if you're bored and looking for a game, most anything will suffice, for a time at least. eq was the first MMO-type game to give me the option for classes (don't think diablo counts) and then quickly turn me off of the entire class system. wow just ran that idea home. is it really a balance issue? in COx, stalkers' hide was a big complaint in pvp. instead of nerfing the power, they increased perception (ability to detect hidden/invis) on certain other powers. in wow, they reskin orcs and elves and add shaman and paladins to the opposite sides. all in the name of balance. so yet again, they're not really giving you anything new or different. how disappointing.
MMORPGs, on the whole, are quite lacking and disappointing. unimaginative types, such as those behind SWG, only reinforce how sadly UN-innovative this (only a) decade-old industry has already become. games like ryzom, eve, & COx seem to (in my opinion) slowly give the players what the players are looking for, instead of adhering to a Devs "dream" for the game.
honestly, if WOW is doing so great, then WHY are they changing fundamental things about the game? why aren't they continuing with the nonstop big raids in BC? why are they pushing back release so they can nerf the big raids and work on small group/solo instances and content? it's not because wow is doing great and keeping all it's customers. if that were the case, they'd keep on with more of the same that we've seen the past couple of years.
they're changing BECAUSE... why? why would you change a highly popular and successful game... UNLESS... you're losing money. that's why you would change your 'winning formula'. someone finally realized that casual players WERE playing for the non-post-60 content. and only diehard casuals would stick around and keep rerolling toons. i'm sure that's only one group of players they're seeking to appease. pvpers would be another. people that HAVE played for two years and are part of the 99.6% of the wow population that DOESN'T raid are probably also a factor in the sweeping non-raid reforms coming about with BC.
the massive changes that have happened with BGs are a direct result of player feedback and disgust with abuses and silliness that should've never been a part of the bg system. the continued changes to BGs in BC are a continuation of this.
when games like the ones i've mentioned are making massive changes and forcing their devs to deal more/compromise/work with the paying public instead of allowing them to steadfastly ignore said paying public; then, games that don't follow suit will find themselves cast aside.
this industry doesn't have contracts with it's players for years at a time. the option IS there, but how many people do anything other than the 1 month or 3 month pay? sony's (station) multi game sub may be an exception, because if you like even a couple of those games, you can swap back and forth and not get bored any time soon.
evolve or lose customers. people can praise or hate any game they want. they speak most loudly with their money and their parting comments on the surveys when you canx a sub.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
They are not changing the entire game, they are changing one part of the game, which is the endgame.
People asked for more accessible endgame content, Blizzard listened to the customers and will now provide content that is more accessible for players, simple as that.
honestly, if WOW is doing so great, then WHY are they changing fundamental things about the game? why aren't they continuing with the nonstop big raids in BC? why are they pushing back release so they can nerf the big raids and work on small group/solo instances and content? it's not because wow is doing great and keeping all it's customers. if that were the case, they'd keep on with more of the same that we've seen the past couple of years.
they're changing BECAUSE... why? why would you change a highly popular and successful game... UNLESS... you're losing money. that's why you would change your 'winning formula'. someone finally realized that casual players WERE playing for the non-post-60 content. and only diehard casuals would stick around and keep rerolling toons. i'm sure that's only one group of players they're seeking to appease. pvpers would be another. people that HAVE played for two years and are part of the 99.6% of the wow population that DOESN'T raid are probably also a factor in the sweeping non-raid reforms coming about with BC.
It's a non-sequitur. Blizzard is making changes because they think it will make the game better, and at the moment the endgame is admittedly rather broken. Blizzard isn't losing money (that's an absurd suggestion), but I do think Blizzard is concerned that if the endgame isn't fixed for more playstyles they will eventually suffer loss of subscriptions. Your post makes it sound like Blizzard and WoW are in a complete crisis mode, which, again, is an absurd suggestion.
when games like the ones i've mentioned are making massive changes and forcing their devs to deal more/compromise/work with the paying public instead of allowing them to steadfastly ignore said paying public; then, games that don't follow suit will find themselves cast aside.
If you're saying that Ryzom and EVE are going to displace WoW, you will be waiting a LONG time for that to happen. A LONG, LONG time.
evolve or lose customers. people can praise or hate any game they want. they speak most loudly with their money and their parting comments on the surveys when you canx a sub.
Indeed, and the fact that WoW has 7 million subs and EVE (a game I also like, by the way) has arond 150k subs speaks volumes. People are putting their money on games they like to play.
Originally posted by Shannia Originally posted by havocthefirs Originally posted by dmitri84 No other game I repeat NO comes close to WoW in content+graphics.
By content do you mean a bland, linear progression to obtain items that make up 3/4s of you characters skills? Or is it the ultra slow movement and cartoony grafix with laughable character customazation? Maybe its the way your spoon-fed content that a three year old finds simple. I guess if thinking is'nt your thing wow rocks.
All I can say is if casual MMORPG players around the globe are willing to give me $1,350,000,000 a year annual revenue saying that my game isn't half bad, who am I to argue? No other MMORPG game out there has made more in it's lifetime than WoW made this past year. NONE. Sure, WoW might be classified as MMORPG for Dummies, but as a share holder in the companies stock, I'll take dumb over niche any day of the week.
Bottom line is, these games may be there for your enjoyment and the enjoyment of the creators, but more importantly, they are there to make money. Blizzard delivered better than anyone ever expected. EVER!
All I can say to you jealous people is.... /CRY MORE
/Seconded , /thirded, /fourthed , /fifthed and so on so on.
Whether WoW has 7 million subscribers or not is irrelevant.
Fact is, they can shut their doors today, they have already made back 1000x what they put in.
As far as BC, I think it will do well. I'll certainly buy it, if only to ooh and aah at the new content.
Whether people subscribe to it after that is once again irrelevant.
$40 a pop x 5-7 million subscribers, that's $200-280 million not including continued subscriptions. It sure as hell didn't take 200 mil to create BC, so again it's a profit whether people subscribe or not.
Like I said, you might hate WoW but what else is out there?
Just a sea of garbage that suck down way too much time.
The MMORPG market itself is undergoing a major shift. People are realizing there is more to the market than just the hardcore raider crowd. People don't WANT to spend 5 hours at a shot raiding dragons. They want content accessable to small groups like husband/wife teams, or brother/sister, or 2 co-workers, or solo.
And we are finding out that most mmorpg players do want SOME pvp, but many of them only want it when they want it and not when someone else imposes it on them at an inconvenient time.
One again this comes back to the point of not interfering with RL.
If the phone rings, you go to answer it, and come back to having been ganked, that interferes with RL.
Games cannot interfere with my RL, I am not a kid anymore, I cannot make WoW or Eve or any game the centerpiece of my life. I cannot wake up at 5am to mine omber, or run around the badlands looking for Iron without getting pk'd, I don't care how good the rest of the game is RL COMES FIRST.
I'm not gonna go to work tired and miss a promotion just to f*ckin raid Onyxia or have a fleet battle, it's just not going to happen.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by Shannia Originally posted by havocthefirs Originally posted by dmitri84 No other game I repeat NO comes close to WoW in content+graphics.
By content do you mean a bland, linear progression to obtain items that make up 3/4s of you characters skills? Or is it the ultra slow movement and cartoony grafix with laughable character customazation? Maybe its the way your spoon-fed content that a three year old finds simple. I guess if thinking is'nt your thing wow rocks.
All I can say is if casual MMORPG players around the globe are willing to give me $1,350,000,000 a year annual revenue saying that my game isn't half bad, who am I to argue? No other MMORPG game out there has made more in it's lifetime than WoW made this past year. NONE. Sure, WoW might be classified as MMORPG for Dummies, but as a share holder in the companies stock, I'll take dumb over niche any day of the week.
Bottom line is, these games may be there for your enjoyment and the enjoyment of the creators, but more importantly, they are there to make money. Blizzard delivered better than anyone ever expected. EVER!
All I can say to you jealous people is.... /CRY MORE
/Seconded , /thirded, /fourthed , /fifthed and so on so on.
again... they're doing so well which is why they've made and are continuing to make an overhaul of the pvp/bg system and are changing the high level game, which is the majority of the gamelife of your character.
for two years lvl 60 is the cap. all the people playing those level 60s.... post 60 has been their game for months/years, getting to 60 a fraction of that time. if you just keep leveling to 60, then you're to the point where all you do is repeat content, especially when the 30+ game are the same instances for both horde and allies.
so, they're revamping the high end game (no huge raid instances, more small group/solo content), and totally redoing bgs/pvp BECAUSE they're making so much money? i mean, they ARE completely changing new content/patches from what they've done for the past two years. twist it however you want, those are the facts. so, now the reason they're doing that is because....... they think they're making too much money? THAT is exactly what you people are arguing. what sort of new content have they just kept adding time and again?
r a i d s
nitpick and point out they've added a bg, or one 5 man instance. the vast, overwhelming majority of patches have added raids and 20+ man instances.
but, for bc, they're changing that. which COULD be why it got pushed back... they had to undo kaplan's new raidlands of stupidity into something which would get and keep paying customers.
otherwise, WHY the overhauls and changes?
use your brain and good sense. leave the obsessiveness and stupidity in the dumpster.
i guess i should be thankful that the folks using the illogic don't hold any government positions... or do they? that COULD explain a lot...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Looking forward to Burning Crusade, I expect to play it for a month.
There aren't many games I have played for longer than a year. And never an MMO.
I know people complain about WoW's endgame, but if you don't just sit there in a some kind of mind frozen rut, repeating the same content over and over and over endlessly like it's the only game in the entire world that simply requires you to play it forever and ever and ever, you might even appreciate it.
I haven't played any other MMO with anyhting like the amount of end game programmed in than WoW. But even this doesn't mean it won't bore you into tearful unhappiness if you don't know when to stop.
Originally posted by baff Looking forward to Burning Crusade, I expect to play it for a month. There aren't many games I have played for longer than a year. And never an MMO. I know people complain about WoW's endgame, but if you don't just sit there in a some kind of mind frozen rut, repeating the same content over and over and over endlessly like it's the only game in the entire world that simply requires you to play it forever and ever and ever, you might even appreciate it. I haven't played any other MMO with anyhting like the amount of end game programmed in than WoW. But even this doesn't mean it won't bore you into tearful unhappiness if you don't know when to stop.
How can you NOT repeat the same content over and over when it's the only content available? Well, the answer is you don't play it. And here I am, now waiting for AOC.
I am finding more and more that I look upon anybody who starts whinging about this or that MMO or even MMO games in general the same way I roll my eyes at people who feel the need to tell me "they don't watch TV"
Oh hey! did you see that skit on SNL with Paris Hilton where they have the late night sex line for role-playing geeks? 'Oh baby, I'm a level 47 elvish wizard...' oh man it was so funny."
"No," with that look that implies they feel they are vastly superior to you. "I don't watch TV."
"Yeah okay whatever, I have to get back to working on that cure for cancer. Talk to you later."
I agree with his views and everything he stated. Most of his points are valid, and I don't think the majority of you understand that.
To the OP - You haven't even played the game recently. All you did was play it in beta, and it is so much different now. You're views are all outdated and you hardly know anything about it. Unless you know something, don't post it at all.
I'm tired of this community hitting on WoW, especially when somebody says the like it or says something positive about it. Either STFU and get over it, or go tell somebody who cares - and it isn't on MMORPG.com.
again... they're doing so well which is why they've made and are continuing to make an overhaul of the pvp/bg system and are changing the high level game, which is the majority of the gamelife of your character.
The problem with your logic is that you can't demonstrate that WoW is not doing well. In fact, they have a huge number of subscriptions that are active, which indicates the game is doing well. You seem to want to infer that the game is doing badly because they are making changes, but the number of subs simply doesn't back up your view. Sorry.
What I think is happening is that Blizzard realizes that the existing endgame design leaves a lot to be desired, and are trying to fix that. It's called "improving the game". I'm sure they are concerned that if the endgame remained the way it is now, it would eventually cost them subs, but that's a far cry from saying "OMG WoW isn't doing well at all, that's why they are changing so much". Again, that's a non-sequitur. MMO developers are always looking for ways to improve their game, it's the nature of the beast.
so, they're revamping the high end game (no huge raid instances, more small group/solo content), and totally redoing bgs/pvp BECAUSE they're making so much money? i mean, they ARE completely changing new content/patches from what they've done for the past two years. twist it however you want, those are the facts. so, now the reason they're doing that is because....... they think they're making too much money? THAT is exactly what you people are arguing. what sort of new content have they just kept adding time and again?
No, they are making changes because they think they will improve the game. What you are saying is that they are making changes because they are losing money, which is absolute nonsense. They have 3m subs in North America and Europe alone, and are not even close to losing money. Do they want to improve the game and retain as many people as they can? Sure, that's what they are doing. But unless you can demonstrate that WoW is losing money or subs (when in fact the sub numbers keep growing), your argument is completely vacuous. There is a difference between (1) improving the game because they believe it will appeal to more players for longer and (2) "OMG, we're losing people left and right, WTF, emergency, emergency". If it were the latter, as you seem to be claiming, WoW would be hemmoraging subs, which hasn't been the case, so unfortunately for you your argument is nothing but supposition unsupported by relevant evidence. You;re entitled to your opinion, of course, but others are entitled to point out how that opinion is not supported by the one fact needed: namely evidence of a falloff of subscriptions to the game.
I really don't understand how you guys can say that WoW is a casual game.
You can't compete in PvP or enjoy instances as a casual player. Here's why:
On the PvP front, you've got captain twink sitting at lvl 19 for an eternity with maxxed out weapons and armor and super enchants who wades through "casual" players like a knife through hot butter. This isn't fun for players that play alot and are PvPing to change the pace of the quest grind, let alone for someone who is casually playing the game.
I do understand that the new PvP arena system is supposed to stop this by grouping battles according to player skill (I don't know how skill lvl will be calculated), kinda like your ranking on xbox live.
On the instance tip, there is no way in hell that you can convince me that spending 2-4 hours in an instance is a "casual" experience.
It's not casual to sit in front of your computer for hours at a time.
I think we should just throw myopic and subjective labels like hardcore and casual out the window. It's stupid.
We're all gamers, we all play, some people enjoy doing the same thing over and over and over, this does not make someone hardcore. Some people don't enjoy repeating the same things over and over until their ears bleed, this does not make them casual.
Comments
Trust me, you dont have to be "hardcore" to succeed end game with WoW. Ive played nearly every class in MC,BWL,AQ.. Its not really that hard, and theres not too much skill involved, you just follow a basic pattern to down a boss. Then you are rewarded with 2-3 epics... rinse and repeat
It only takes a few hours, and half a brain to raid endgame..
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition
World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play
World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet
Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers. The above
definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and
expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
oh well, away from the i hate every mmorpg forum on a site dedicated to mmorpg's.
geez this again....
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition
World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Yes and?
My point was people seem to think that 7+ million people are currently subscribed...
What i mean by customers are people that have made an account, people that have "tried" WoW, and either still play or no longer play.
The review was made for casaul gammers by a casaul gamers
WoW is one of the BEST CASAUL GAMER game around, it only gets ennoying in the end game
Personally i still think Blizzard just didn't bother about making a descent end-game.
They made a casaul friendly game, the whole game speaks "casaul gamer" peeps getting too max level are just the minimum to keep ehm going until they final have made the end game which they apperantly for sales reason are calling "expansion". And i thoughed microsoft marketing was good wel Blizzard is getting as good as microsoft in it very fast
That itemzation your talking about has little relevance for a casaul gamer sisn that only gets intresting with max level
The fact is WoW is a good casaul gamer game but it's just half finished they trowhn ing heavy itemzzation as they did with diablo II and kept the community playing for two years so the could develop a descent end game.
The review just doesn't appeal to you because your obvious not a casaul gamer sins a casaul gamer won't even do a high level instance for the first 3 to 6 months.
I don't even consider myself a reall casaul gamer with my 2 till 4 hours of gamming a day i played the game for 5 months total and my main char never reached max level.
You need a casaul gamer to make a casaul gamers review.
The fact that so much hardcore mmorpg react to the review only shows that you can't make a good casaul gamers review unless your a casaul gamer.
A review like this is not to make a good pro cons analyses but a good "i have a different atitude so how do i going to like it" review
If it doesn't appeal to you it would be for one reason! your not a casaul gamer!
sisn it will take a casual gamer to much time to be able to do an instance he probably never ever even going to think about it so he won't run into the same ennoying thigs as you
I found the article well-written and accurate.
Just because you don't like the game doesn't mean everybody who does is wrong.
Truth is, not every game is for every person, I don't like the same thing everybody else likes.
WoW /is/ successful. It /is/ successful due to catering to casual gamers, casual pvp'ers, and "achievers" (raiders.)
I really don't understand the beef here.
The author of that editorial shouldn't be working for mmorpg.com, because he isn't experienced with that time of game..
He shouldn't have been hired in the first place, imho.
So if you haven't any casaul gamer on your staff you only represent part of the mmorpg players
BIGGEST part of mmorpg players are casual gammers, they play in there spare time and don't have time to post on these forums but recent research showed 70 percent of mmorpg don't play more then an average of max 2 hours a day.
Nou you say sins they don't have 7 max levels in WoW you think your better suited to make a review
you people are PATHETIC you actaully think a hardcore gamer could write a better review on how the experience of a casaul gamer is which is a part of the game you only spend 10% of your gamming time on because you go by it so fast
BTW - I have over 15 years of gaming experience, and WoW scores higher on my meter than anything else on this site.
The sad fact is that while WoW is not that good, it's better than every other piece of crap this industry has managed to put out, and that's why it has the most subscribers.
I played Eve for 2 years. While it is innovative and unique, it is also about as much fun as watching paint dry. The PVP was boring me to tears. My epiphany came when I fell asleep camping a gate.
WoW pvp might be instanced, but at least I'm at the controls, I'm actively participating, and it's actually fun. And when I die, I don't have to spend the next 2 hours kitting out a new ship. I don't have to grind mobs for cash for a new ship.
I know I can just login for 2 hours, play, and logout. WoW does not take over my life. It is a game for casuals.
There comes a point where you're like...
"Okay...I'm 33....I don't have time to be spending alot of time farming materials, or mining roids, or grinding npc's. And I'm not waiting for the fleet to have some fun. I want to jump in and have some fun for a little while, and jump out."
So my choices were to either give up MMORPG's altogether and go play only FPS games, or to play WoW.
I chose both. Sometimes I play BF2, sometimes I play WoW.
And you're right, WoW is MMORPG-Lite. And that's exactly what the doctor ordered.
geez this again....
World of Warcraft's Customer Definition
World of Warcraft customers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or purchased a prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the installation box bundled with one free month access. Internet Game Room players that have accessed the game over the last seven days are also counted as customers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired pre-paid cards. Customers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.
Yes and?
My point was people seem to think that 7+ million people are currently subscribed...
What i mean by customers are people that have made an account, people that have "tried" WoW, and either still play or no longer play.
THERE ARE 7 million people subscribed. READ man, READ!
Yes, WoW has 7 million active subs. They don't count promos, cancelled or expired when citing that number. Yes, it is actually THAT popular.
I also played EVE for over 2 years, and while there were certainly many exciting moments I enjoyed in EVE, looking back on it there was just a ton a literal TON of time sunk into that game, a lot of which was akin to downtime. EVE bills itself as casual friendly because of the skill training system, but in order to make money it takes quite a bit of time, and you need quite a bit of money because of the stiff death penalty and the fact that you need to replace your stuff. PvPing also takes a lot of time, because the vast, vast, vast majority of the time you are "doing PvP" in EVE is spent either waiting for a fight (as in gate camping) or cruising around looking for a fight (as in patrolling), and you can go for hours without actually getting any fight because in EVE numbers are the most important thing in a fight and if the enemy is outnumbered he will run rather than fight unless you stop him first. So while the actual PvP can be fun, "doing PvP" in EVE is very time consuming and requires a lot of downtime, and at the end of the day when I look back on it now, all that downtime wasn't really al that much fun at all, and other games offer much more activity and pace than EVE does.
most anyone can get most any *uber* piece of equipment in UO with a minimum amount of time and trouble. there's no weeks of repeating the same instance ad nauseum in order to get your gear.
you have 40+ skills and only 700 skill points. you have strength, dexterity and intelligence and only 225 points to put between them. there's no "one" way to build a toon in UO, there's a few dozen ways for any concept you can imagine. if you're a warrior-mage, you're just so-so in both compared to a pure warrior or pure mage. pure warriors have a number of ways they can be built. no matter your build, you can include samurai, paladin, necromancer, or ninja skills.
if you're bored and looking for a game, most anything will suffice, for a time at least. eq was the first MMO-type game to give me the option for classes (don't think diablo counts) and then quickly turn me off of the entire class system. wow just ran that idea home. is it really a balance issue? in COx, stalkers' hide was a big complaint in pvp. instead of nerfing the power, they increased perception (ability to detect hidden/invis) on certain other powers. in wow, they reskin orcs and elves and add shaman and paladins to the opposite sides. all in the name of balance. so yet again, they're not really giving you anything new or different. how disappointing.
MMORPGs, on the whole, are quite lacking and disappointing. unimaginative types, such as those behind SWG, only reinforce how sadly UN-innovative this (only a) decade-old industry has already become. games like ryzom, eve, & COx seem to (in my opinion) slowly give the players what the players are looking for, instead of adhering to a Devs "dream" for the game.
honestly, if WOW is doing so great, then WHY are they changing fundamental things about the game? why aren't they continuing with the nonstop big raids in BC? why are they pushing back release so they can nerf the big raids and work on small group/solo instances and content? it's not because wow is doing great and keeping all it's customers. if that were the case, they'd keep on with more of the same that we've seen the past couple of years.
they're changing BECAUSE... why? why would you change a highly popular and successful game... UNLESS... you're losing money. that's why you would change your 'winning formula'. someone finally realized that casual players WERE playing for the non-post-60 content. and only diehard casuals would stick around and keep rerolling toons. i'm sure that's only one group of players they're seeking to appease. pvpers would be another. people that HAVE played for two years and are part of the 99.6% of the wow population that DOESN'T raid are probably also a factor in the sweeping non-raid reforms coming about with BC.
the massive changes that have happened with BGs are a direct result of player feedback and disgust with abuses and silliness that should've never been a part of the bg system. the continued changes to BGs in BC are a continuation of this.
when games like the ones i've mentioned are making massive changes and forcing their devs to deal more/compromise/work with the paying public instead of allowing them to steadfastly ignore said paying public; then, games that don't follow suit will find themselves cast aside.
this industry doesn't have contracts with it's players for years at a time. the option IS there, but how many people do anything other than the 1 month or 3 month pay? sony's (station) multi game sub may be an exception, because if you like even a couple of those games, you can swap back and forth and not get bored any time soon.
evolve or lose customers. people can praise or hate any game they want. they speak most loudly with their money and their parting comments on the surveys when you canx a sub.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
They are not changing the entire game, they are changing one part of the game, which is the endgame.
People asked for more accessible endgame content, Blizzard listened to the customers and will now provide content that is more accessible for players, simple as that.
honestly, if WOW is doing so great, then WHY are they changing
fundamental things about the game? why aren't they continuing with the
nonstop big raids in BC? why are they pushing back release so they can
nerf the big raids and work on small group/solo instances and content?
it's not because wow is doing great and keeping all it's customers. if
that were the case, they'd keep on with more of the same that we've
seen the past couple of years.
they're changing BECAUSE... why?
why would you change a highly popular and successful game... UNLESS...
you're losing money. that's why you would change your 'winning
formula'. someone finally realized that casual players WERE playing
for the non-post-60 content. and only diehard casuals would stick
around and keep rerolling toons. i'm sure that's only one group of
players they're seeking to appease. pvpers would be another. people
that HAVE played for two years and are part of the 99.6% of the wow
population that DOESN'T raid are probably also a factor in the sweeping
non-raid reforms coming about with BC.
It's a non-sequitur. Blizzard is making changes because they think it will make the game better, and at the moment the endgame is admittedly rather broken. Blizzard isn't losing money (that's an absurd suggestion), but I do think Blizzard is concerned that if the endgame isn't fixed for more playstyles they will eventually suffer loss of subscriptions. Your post makes it sound like Blizzard and WoW are in a complete crisis mode, which, again, is an absurd suggestion.
when games like the ones i've mentioned are making
massive changes and forcing their devs to deal more/compromise/work
with the paying public instead of allowing them to steadfastly ignore
said paying public; then, games that don't follow suit will find
themselves cast aside.
If you're saying that Ryzom and EVE are going to displace WoW, you will be waiting a LONG time for that to happen. A LONG, LONG time.
evolve or lose customers. people can praise or
hate any game they want. they speak most loudly with their money and
their parting comments on the surveys when you canx a sub.
Indeed, and the fact that WoW has 7 million subs and EVE (a game I also like, by the way) has arond 150k subs speaks volumes. People are putting their money on games they like to play.
By content do you mean a bland, linear progression to obtain items that
make up 3/4s of you characters skills? Or is it the ultra slow movement
and cartoony grafix with laughable character customazation? Maybe its
the way your spoon-fed content that a three year old finds simple. I
guess if thinking is'nt your thing wow rocks.
All
I can say is if casual MMORPG players around the globe are
willing to give me $1,350,000,000 a year annual revenue saying
that my game isn't half bad, who am I to argue? No other MMORPG
game out there has made more in it's lifetime than WoW made this past
year. NONE. Sure,
WoW might be classified as MMORPG for Dummies, but as a share holder in
the companies stock, I'll take dumb over niche any day of the week.
Bottom
line is, these games may be there for your enjoyment and the enjoyment
of the creators, but more importantly, they are there to make
money. Blizzard delivered better than anyone ever expected. EVER!
All I can say to you jealous people is.... /CRY MORE
/Seconded , /thirded, /fourthed , /fifthed and so on so on.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Whether WoW has 7 million subscribers or not is irrelevant.
Fact is, they can shut their doors today, they have already made back 1000x what they put in.
As far as BC, I think it will do well. I'll certainly buy it, if only to ooh and aah at the new content.
Whether people subscribe to it after that is once again irrelevant.
$40 a pop x 5-7 million subscribers, that's $200-280 million not including continued subscriptions. It sure as hell didn't take 200 mil to create BC, so again it's a profit whether people subscribe or not.
Like I said, you might hate WoW but what else is out there?
Just a sea of garbage that suck down way too much time.
The MMORPG market itself is undergoing a major shift. People are realizing there is more to the market than just the hardcore raider crowd. People don't WANT to spend 5 hours at a shot raiding dragons. They want content accessable to small groups like husband/wife teams, or brother/sister, or 2 co-workers, or solo.
And we are finding out that most mmorpg players do want SOME pvp, but many of them only want it when they want it and not when someone else imposes it on them at an inconvenient time.
One again this comes back to the point of not interfering with RL.
If the phone rings, you go to answer it, and come back to having been ganked, that interferes with RL.
Games cannot interfere with my RL, I am not a kid anymore, I cannot make WoW or Eve or any game the centerpiece of my life. I cannot wake up at 5am to mine omber, or run around the badlands looking for Iron without getting pk'd, I don't care how good the rest of the game is RL COMES FIRST.
I'm not gonna go to work tired and miss a promotion just to f*ckin raid Onyxia or have a fleet battle, it's just not going to happen.
By content do you mean a bland, linear progression to obtain items that make up 3/4s of you characters skills? Or is it the ultra slow movement and cartoony grafix with laughable character customazation? Maybe its the way your spoon-fed content that a three year old finds simple. I guess if thinking is'nt your thing wow rocks.
All I can say is if casual MMORPG players around the globe are willing to give me $1,350,000,000 a year annual revenue saying that my game isn't half bad, who am I to argue? No other MMORPG game out there has made more in it's lifetime than WoW made this past year. NONE. Sure, WoW might be classified as MMORPG for Dummies, but as a share holder in the companies stock, I'll take dumb over niche any day of the week.
Bottom line is, these games may be there for your enjoyment and the enjoyment of the creators, but more importantly, they are there to make money. Blizzard delivered better than anyone ever expected. EVER!
All I can say to you jealous people is.... /CRY MORE
/Seconded , /thirded, /fourthed , /fifthed and so on so on.
again... they're doing so well which is why they've made and are continuing to make an overhaul of the pvp/bg system and are changing the high level game, which is the majority of the gamelife of your character.
for two years lvl 60 is the cap. all the people playing those level 60s.... post 60 has been their game for months/years, getting to 60 a fraction of that time. if you just keep leveling to 60, then you're to the point where all you do is repeat content, especially when the 30+ game are the same instances for both horde and allies.
so, they're revamping the high end game (no huge raid instances, more small group/solo content), and totally redoing bgs/pvp BECAUSE they're making so much money? i mean, they ARE completely changing new content/patches from what they've done for the past two years. twist it however you want, those are the facts. so, now the reason they're doing that is because....... they think they're making too much money? THAT is exactly what you people are arguing. what sort of new content have they just kept adding time and again?
r a i d s
nitpick and point out they've added a bg, or one 5 man instance. the vast, overwhelming majority of patches have added raids and 20+ man instances.
but, for bc, they're changing that. which COULD be why it got pushed back... they had to undo kaplan's new raidlands of stupidity into something which would get and keep paying customers.
otherwise, WHY the overhauls and changes?
use your brain and good sense. leave the obsessiveness and stupidity in the dumpster.
i guess i should be thankful that the folks using the illogic don't hold any government positions... or do they? that COULD explain a lot...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Looking forward to Burning Crusade, I expect to play it for a month.
There aren't many games I have played for longer than a year. And never an MMO.
I know people complain about WoW's endgame, but if you don't just sit there in a some kind of mind frozen rut, repeating the same content over and over and over endlessly like it's the only game in the entire world that simply requires you to play it forever and ever and ever, you might even appreciate it.
I haven't played any other MMO with anyhting like the amount of end game programmed in than WoW. But even this doesn't mean it won't bore you into tearful unhappiness if you don't know when to stop.
Oh hey! did you see that skit on SNL with Paris Hilton where they have the late night sex line for role-playing geeks? 'Oh baby, I'm a level 47 elvish wizard...' oh man it was so funny."
"No," with that look that implies they feel they are vastly superior to you. "I don't watch TV."
"Yeah okay whatever, I have to get back to working on that cure for cancer. Talk to you later."
shrug. Sorry just felt the need to vent that.
I agree with his views and everything he stated. Most of his points are valid, and I don't think the majority of you understand that.
To the OP - You haven't even played the game recently. All you did was play it in beta, and it is so much different now. You're views are all outdated and you hardly know anything about it. Unless you know something, don't post it at all.
I'm tired of this community hitting on WoW, especially when somebody says the like it or says something positive about it. Either STFU and get over it, or go tell somebody who cares - and it isn't on MMORPG.com.
again... they're doing so well which is why they've made and are continuing to make an overhaul of the pvp/bg system and are changing the high level game, which is the majority of the gamelife of your character.
The problem with your logic is that you can't demonstrate that WoW is not doing well. In fact, they have a huge number of subscriptions that are active, which indicates the game is doing well. You seem to want to infer that the game is doing badly because they are making changes, but the number of subs simply doesn't back up your view. Sorry.
What I think is happening is that Blizzard realizes that the existing endgame design leaves a lot to be desired, and are trying to fix that. It's called "improving the game". I'm sure they are concerned that if the endgame remained the way it is now, it would eventually cost them subs, but that's a far cry from saying "OMG WoW isn't doing well at all, that's why they are changing so much". Again, that's a non-sequitur. MMO developers are always looking for ways to improve their game, it's the nature of the beast.
so, they're revamping the high end game (no huge raid instances, more small group/solo content), and totally redoing bgs/pvp BECAUSE they're making so much money? i mean, they ARE completely changing new content/patches from what they've done for the past two years. twist it however you want, those are the facts. so, now the reason they're doing that is because....... they think they're making too much money? THAT is exactly what you people are arguing. what sort of new content have they just kept adding time and again?
No, they are making changes because they think they will improve the game. What you are saying is that they are making changes because they are losing money, which is absolute nonsense. They have 3m subs in North America and Europe alone, and are not even close to losing money. Do they want to improve the game and retain as many people as they can? Sure, that's what they are doing. But unless you can demonstrate that WoW is losing money or subs (when in fact the sub numbers keep growing), your argument is completely vacuous. There is a difference between (1) improving the game because they believe it will appeal to more players for longer and (2) "OMG, we're losing people left and right, WTF, emergency, emergency". If it were the latter, as you seem to be claiming, WoW would be hemmoraging subs, which hasn't been the case, so unfortunately for you your argument is nothing but supposition unsupported by relevant evidence. You;re entitled to your opinion, of course, but others are entitled to point out how that opinion is not supported by the one fact needed: namely evidence of a falloff of subscriptions to the game.
I really don't understand how you guys can say that WoW is a casual game.
You can't compete in PvP or enjoy instances as a casual player. Here's why:
On the PvP front, you've got captain twink sitting at lvl 19 for an eternity with maxxed out weapons and armor and super enchants who wades through "casual" players like a knife through hot butter. This isn't fun for players that play alot and are PvPing to change the pace of the quest grind, let alone for someone who is casually playing the game.
I do understand that the new PvP arena system is supposed to stop this by grouping battles according to player skill (I don't know how skill lvl will be calculated), kinda like your ranking on xbox live.
On the instance tip, there is no way in hell that you can convince me that spending 2-4 hours in an instance is a "casual" experience.
It's not casual to sit in front of your computer for hours at a time.
I think we should just throw myopic and subjective labels like hardcore and casual out the window. It's stupid.
We're all gamers, we all play, some people enjoy doing the same thing over and over and over, this does not make someone hardcore. Some people don't enjoy repeating the same things over and over until their ears bleed, this does not make them casual.