WoW is a casual game while levelling, because a player who puts in a modest amount of time (say 10-15 hours per week) can still reach the level cap in 2-3 months. Most other MMOs are not designed that way. It keeps the low-time players on a fast enough pace that they still think they are achieving something.
I agree that the endgame in WoW is not casual, currently. It's at odds with the design of the rest of the game, and that's created serious issues with the endgame (and the phenomenon of people having 4,5 or 6 alts al levelled to 60). Raiding isn't casual. Endgame PvP is casual enough (there isn't the twinking problem), but not of you want to advance up the PvP ladder and get gear rewards. So I would agree that the endgame is not casual-friendly (and by that I mean friendly for those who play less), but the remainder of the game is remarkably casual friendly when compared to virtually any other MMO.
I do understand that the new PvP arena system is supposed to stop this by grouping battles according to player skill (I don't know how skill lvl will be calculated), kinda like your ranking on xbox live.
Except those with the best gear and best skill will come up top.
I understand what you're saying Nova, and I concur to a degree.
The point I'm trying to get across is that no MMO forces you to play it. You can play any MMO casually.
It may take you longer to get to the lvl cap of another MMO if you play casually, but that says something about the brevity of WoW.
Also, WoW doesn't have alot of just out of the way fun things to do. Sure the cannon at the Faire is fun the first few times, and the parachuting off that high peak is cool once or twice, but aside from that it's all quest grind, faction grind, gear grind. The holiday specials are lame at best.
All in all, WoW was a great game when it came out, it still remains today as one of the most polished and well presented MMOs, BUT...
I am sick to death of all the empty over-hyped praise for this game. The more people look at WoW as the empidemy of MMORPGs the more companies will try to emulate it.
I don't want to see another generation of rehashed trite gameplay, UIs, and AI.
By looking at this game with rose colored glasses, we send the wrong kind of message to money-hungry, developing companies. On the other hand, if we use critical thinking and hold games up to a higher standard, we the consumer can raise the bar by letting gaming communities everywhere know that we won't be happy with lackluster products and rehashed grindfests.
apparently they will have more split up instances like Scarlet Monastery in BC, forgot the term they called those kind but they only found it upon developing WoW and hope to expand on it. That will certainly be of aid to more casual play. But yeah I'd agree in general, I don't think any mmorpgs really are that casual. The only reason WoW is cited asuch is because of the ease of it's soloing and getting to 60. You probably could solo to 60 in many mmorpgs without much time played.
I agree that you can play any MMO casually. The difference is whether you still get a sense of having a regular pace of achievement that is attractive. In general, I would suppose that more people out there like to progress faster rather than slower, and above all I think it is the pacing of WoW and the soloability that have made it so broadly popular.
I think in terms of the message to the developer community, it's a hash. Publishers are going to want to publish games like WoW to some extent because they perceive there is money to be made by doing so ... so those designs will get funded. Now, there's also a market for other designs, the sort of "WoW-Backlash" market for the more traditional MMO gamer. And I do think that market has potential, and in fact others seem to agree because some games are being designed for this market (most notably Vanguard, which sees itself as being aimed at "core MMO gamers", which is kind of a PC way of saying "hardcore" without using that word) and so people do see the potential for developing games that are aimed at people who feel alienated by the WoW approach.
If I were to look into a crystal ball, my own prediction would be (1) a larger MMO market in general as a result of WoW, (2) more WoW-like games made (by that I mean "accessible MMOs" aimed at the broad market rather than "core gamers"), and, at the same time (3) some MMOs being made to appeal to the "core gamers" who either predated WoW or who got involved in MMOs as a result of WoW and want something more substantial. By growing the size of the MMO market overall, I think WoW made it possible for the development of deeper niches within the market as well ( to some degree appealing to people who "graduate" from WoW), and I think games like Vanguard and AoC are the first wave of games that are going to try to cater to some of these niches.
So on balance I really don't see WoW as being a negatiive thing for gaming or MMOs in general. I think it's helped the entire industry, and especially the MMO segment, by bringing more people into the market.
Originally posted by fizzle322 The MMORPG market itself is undergoing a major shift. People are realizing there is more to the market than just the hardcore raider crowd. People don't WANT to spend 5 hours at a shot raiding dragons. They want content accessable to small groups like husband/wife teams, or brother/sister, or 2 co-workers, or solo.
And we are finding out that most mmorpg players do want SOME pvp, but many of them only want it when they want it and not when someone else imposes it on them at an inconvenient time.
One again this comes back to the point of not interfering with RL.
If the phone rings, you go to answer it, and come back to having been ganked, that interferes with RL.
Games cannot interfere with my RL, I am not a kid anymore, I cannot make WoW or Eve or any game the centerpiece of my life. I cannot wake up at 5am to mine omber, or run around the badlands looking for Iron without getting pk'd, I don't care how good the rest of the game is RL COMES FIRST.
I'm not gonna go to work tired and miss a promotion just to f*ckin raid Onyxia or have a fleet battle, it's just not going to happen.
amen, and thank god that the people making games have finally started realizing that um, you SHOULD give people stuff they enjoy because it's a GAME.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Kryogenic By looking at this game with rose colored glasses, we send the wrong kind of message to money-hungry, developing companies. On the other hand, if we use critical thinking and hold games up to a higher standard, we the consumer can raise the bar by letting gaming communities everywhere know that we won't be happy with lackluster products and rehashed grindfests.
again --- amen.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Kryogenic I really don't understand how you guys can say that WoW is a casual game. You can't compete in PvP or enjoy instances as a casual player. Here's why: On the PvP front, you've got captain twink sitting at lvl 19
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Paragus1 Originally posted by dmitri84 No other game I repeat NO comes close to WoW in content+graphics.
I think that most the people who see WoW for what it is are those who have been around the block to experience other games. There is no way you can say with a straight face that the PvP in WoW is anything beyond a laughable joke if you have played a serious MMO with PvP other then WoW.
Actually, that far from the truth. While the PVP SYSTEM might have a lot to be improved on, the actual PVP combat and gametypes is actually a lot of fun and quite well done. You can get a better experience of the same concept playing Guild Wars . And you don't even have to pay 15$ a month .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
THERE ARE 7 million people subscribed. READ man, READ!
No, there are 7 million active *accounts*, most of those are in China where they do not play via subscription and Blizzard only collects a small license fee.
Vivendis financials suggest a yearly income from their online games of ~$350 million -$400 million per year which would amount to between 2 million and 2.5 million subscriptions if we assumes 100% of that was from WoW and that revenue from box sales and licensing in China are negligible. This tracks pretty closely with The9s reported 5 million accounts.
Originally posted by Novaseeker WoW is a casual game while levelling, because a player who puts in a modest amount of time (say 10-15 hours per week) can still reach the level cap in 2-3 months. Most other MMOs are not designed that way. It keeps the low-time players on a fast enough pace that they still think they are achieving something.
I agree that the endgame in WoW is not casual, currently. It's at odds with the design of the rest of the game, and that's created serious issues with the endgame (and the phenomenon of people having 4,5 or 6 alts al levelled to 60). Raiding isn't casual. Endgame PvP is casual enough (there isn't the twinking problem), but not of you want to advance up the PvP ladder and get gear rewards. So I would agree that the endgame is not casual-friendly (and by that I mean friendly for those who play less), but the remainder of the game is remarkably casual friendly when compared to virtually any other MMO.
And thats why, even putting personal taste aside WoW isnt a great game. It may not be bad, but there are plenty better.
I dont care for EVE, it isnt my type of game and I have no real interest in playing it, but I have no trouble admitting that its a very good game. Its developers know their target market and they hit it perfectly. I cant even come close to saying the same thing of WoW, which just reeks of bait and switch. Lure people in with the promise of one type of game play then switch after you have then playing for a while.
WoWs developers really need to decide what they want, you cant deliver a game that is both hardcore raid and casual. (as an aside I think you can take a middle of the road approach to both but WoW doesnt attempt this) You cant deliver a game that is solo encouraged then switch to raid/group required for the endgame and last but not least you cant truly deliver good PvP in a game that is item but Blizzard continues to string people along promising all of the above. MMO's are about variety and options but you can't support diametricaly opposite playstyles and do any of them well.
None of this makes WoW a terrible game, but it excludes it from being a really good one and that isn't just a function of personal taste.
I see sometimes patch notes by a friend and as last one to its become more and more a easy walkthrough wow.
Everytime al those silly kids whining on there forums that its to hard this or that they make it more easy for all those 12 year old kids who play wow, this game is pethaticly easy.
Burning crusade will be for first 2 months exciting for all those kids then they start whining again its to hard or to boring 7million playing a kids game for 8 year olds who can play it lmao:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Originally posted by Novaseeker WoW is a casual game while levelling, because a player who puts in a modest amount of time (say 10-15 hours per week) can still reach the level cap in 2-3 months. Most other MMOs are not designed that way. It keeps the low-time players on a fast enough pace that they still think they are achieving something.
I agree that the endgame in WoW is not casual, currently. It's at odds with the design of the rest of the game, and that's created serious issues with the endgame (and the phenomenon of people having 4,5 or 6 alts al levelled to 60). Raiding isn't casual. Endgame PvP is casual enough (there isn't the twinking problem), but not of you want to advance up the PvP ladder and get gear rewards. So I would agree that the endgame is not casual-friendly (and by that I mean friendly for those who play less), but the remainder of the game is remarkably casual friendly when compared to virtually any other MMO.
End game is not casual are you talkig about wow or some other game ?
It would be hardcore is all those mods where not used but becouse its part of wow even end game is very casual there is nothing hardcore about it the mods in wow makes endgame super easy
only hardcore about it is if peeps wanne spent 15+ hours a day playing wow.
For real hardcore players wow is not even close to play it.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Originally posted by forest-nl Originally posted by Novaseeker WoW is a casual game while levelling, because a player who puts in a modest amount of time (say 10-15 hours per week) can still reach the level cap in 2-3 months. Most other MMOs are not designed that way. It keeps the low-time players on a fast enough pace that they still think they are achieving something.
I agree that the endgame in WoW is not casual, currently. It's at odds with the design of the rest of the game, and that's created serious issues with the endgame (and the phenomenon of people having 4,5 or 6 alts al levelled to 60). Raiding isn't casual. Endgame PvP is casual enough (there isn't the twinking problem), but not of you want to advance up the PvP ladder and get gear rewards. So I would agree that the endgame is not casual-friendly (and by that I mean friendly for those who play less), but the remainder of the game is remarkably casual friendly when compared to virtually any other MMO.
only hardcore about it is if peeps wanne spent 15+ hours a day playing wow.
Okay, well I would not define a system that requires that kind of time commitment to be "casual" in any way. Gamers with jobs, lives outside the game, etc., have a hard time keeping up in that system, which means it isn't casual.
Originally posted by lomiller Originally posted by Novaseeker WoW is a casual game while levelling, because a player who puts in a modest amount of time (say 10-15 hours per week) can still reach the level cap in 2-3 months. Most other MMOs are not designed that way. It keeps the low-time players on a fast enough pace that they still think they are achieving something.
I agree that the endgame in WoW is not casual, currently. It's at odds with the design of the rest of the game, and that's created serious issues with the endgame (and the phenomenon of people having 4,5 or 6 alts al levelled to 60). Raiding isn't casual. Endgame PvP is casual enough (there isn't the twinking problem), but not of you want to advance up the PvP ladder and get gear rewards. So I would agree that the endgame is not casual-friendly (and by that I mean friendly for those who play less), but the remainder of the game is remarkably casual friendly when compared to virtually any other MMO.
And thats why, even putting personal taste aside WoW isnt a great game. It may not be bad, but there are plenty better.
I dont care for EVE, it isnt my type of game and I have no real interest in playing it, but I have no trouble admitting that its a very good game. Its developers know their target market and they hit it perfectly. I cant even come close to saying the same thing of WoW, which just reeks of bait and switch. Lure people in with the promise of one type of game play then switch after you have then playing for a while.
WoWs developers really need to decide what they want, you cant deliver a game that is both hardcore raid and casual. (as an aside I think you can take a middle of the road approach to both but WoW doesnt attempt this) You cant deliver a game that is solo encouraged then switch to raid/group required for the endgame and last but not least you cant truly deliver good PvP in a game that is item but Blizzard continues to string people along promising all of the above. MMO's are about variety and options but you can't support diametricaly opposite playstyles and do any of them well.
None of this makes WoW a terrible game, but it excludes it from being a really good one and that isn't just a function of personal taste.
I agree on the bait and switch, but to me that doesn't invalidate the marvel that is the non-end-game of WoW, how well it is designed and how well it flows and to be honest how fun it was the first time through. Yes, the endgame sucks, and it's the main flaw of the game, but I don't mark the game down as much as you do because of that. I think we just have different grading systems.
Comments
I agree that the endgame in WoW is not casual, currently. It's at odds with the design of the rest of the game, and that's created serious issues with the endgame (and the phenomenon of people having 4,5 or 6 alts al levelled to 60). Raiding isn't casual. Endgame PvP is casual enough (there isn't the twinking problem), but not of you want to advance up the PvP ladder and get gear rewards. So I would agree that the endgame is not casual-friendly (and by that I mean friendly for those who play less), but the remainder of the game is remarkably casual friendly when compared to virtually any other MMO.
Except those with the best gear and best skill will come up top.
I understand what you're saying Nova, and I concur to a degree.
The point I'm trying to get across is that no MMO forces you to play it. You can play any MMO casually.
It may take you longer to get to the lvl cap of another MMO if you play casually, but that says something about the brevity of WoW.
Also, WoW doesn't have alot of just out of the way fun things to do. Sure the cannon at the Faire is fun the first few times, and the parachuting off that high peak is cool once or twice, but aside from that it's all quest grind, faction grind, gear grind. The holiday specials are lame at best.
All in all, WoW was a great game when it came out, it still remains today as one of the most polished and well presented MMOs, BUT...
I am sick to death of all the empty over-hyped praise for this game. The more people look at WoW as the empidemy of MMORPGs the more companies will try to emulate it.
I don't want to see another generation of rehashed trite gameplay, UIs, and AI.
By looking at this game with rose colored glasses, we send the wrong kind of message to money-hungry, developing companies. On the other hand, if we use critical thinking and hold games up to a higher standard, we the consumer can raise the bar by letting gaming communities everywhere know that we won't be happy with lackluster products and rehashed grindfests.
I think in terms of the message to the developer community, it's a hash. Publishers are going to want to publish games like WoW to some extent because they perceive there is money to be made by doing so ... so those designs will get funded. Now, there's also a market for other designs, the sort of "WoW-Backlash" market for the more traditional MMO gamer. And I do think that market has potential, and in fact others seem to agree because some games are being designed for this market (most notably Vanguard, which sees itself as being aimed at "core MMO gamers", which is kind of a PC way of saying "hardcore" without using that word) and so people do see the potential for developing games that are aimed at people who feel alienated by the WoW approach.
If I were to look into a crystal ball, my own prediction would be (1) a larger MMO market in general as a result of WoW, (2) more WoW-like games made (by that I mean "accessible MMOs" aimed at the broad market rather than "core gamers"), and, at the same time (3) some MMOs being made to appeal to the "core gamers" who either predated WoW or who got involved in MMOs as a result of WoW and want something more substantial. By growing the size of the MMO market overall, I think WoW made it possible for the development of deeper niches within the market as well ( to some degree appealing to people who "graduate" from WoW), and I think games like Vanguard and AoC are the first wave of games that are going to try to cater to some of these niches.
So on balance I really don't see WoW as being a negatiive thing for gaming or MMOs in general. I think it's helped the entire industry, and especially the MMO segment, by bringing more people into the market.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Actually, that far from the truth. While the PVP SYSTEM might have a lot to be improved on, the actual PVP combat and gametypes is actually a lot of fun and quite well done.
You can get a better experience of the same concept playing Guild Wars . And you don't even have to pay 15$ a month .
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No, there are 7 million active *accounts*, most of those are in China where they do not play via subscription and Blizzard only collects a small license fee.
Vivendis financials suggest a yearly income from their online games of ~$350 million -$400 million per year which would amount to between 2 million and 2.5 million subscriptions if we assumes 100% of that was from WoW and that revenue from box sales and licensing in China are negligible. This tracks pretty closely with The9s reported 5 million accounts.
And thats why, even putting personal taste aside WoW isnt a great game. It may not be bad, but there are plenty better.
I dont care for EVE, it isnt my type of game and I have no real interest in playing it, but I have no trouble admitting that its a very good game. Its developers know their target market and they hit it perfectly. I cant even come close to saying the same thing of WoW, which just reeks of bait and switch. Lure people in with the promise of one type of game play then switch after you have then playing for a while.
WoWs developers really need to decide what they want, you cant deliver a game that is both hardcore raid and casual. (as an aside I think you can take a middle of the road approach to both but WoW doesnt attempt this) You cant deliver a game that is solo encouraged then switch to raid/group required for the endgame and last but not least you cant truly deliver good PvP in a game that is item but Blizzard continues to string people along promising all of the above. MMO's are about variety and options but you can't support diametricaly opposite playstyles and do any of them well.
None of this makes WoW a terrible game, but it excludes it from being a really good one and that isn't just a function of personal taste.
I see sometimes patch notes by a friend and as last one to its become more and more a easy walkthrough wow.
Everytime al those silly kids whining on there forums that its to hard this or that they make it more easy for all those 12 year old kids who play wow, this game is pethaticly easy.
Burning crusade will be for first 2 months exciting for all those kids then they start whining again its to hard or to boring 7million playing a kids game for 8 year olds who can play it lmao:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
End game is not casual are you talkig about wow or some other game ?
It would be hardcore is all those mods where not used but becouse its part of wow even end game is very casual there is nothing hardcore about it the mods in wow makes endgame super easy
only hardcore about it is if peeps wanne spent 15+ hours a day playing wow.
For real hardcore players wow is not even close to play it.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
only hardcore about it is if peeps wanne spent 15+ hours a day playing wow.
Okay, well I would not define a system that requires that kind of time commitment to be "casual" in any way. Gamers with jobs, lives outside the game, etc., have a hard time keeping up in that system, which means it isn't casual.
And thats why, even putting personal taste aside WoW isnt a great game. It may not be bad, but there are plenty better.
I dont care for EVE, it isnt my type of game and I have no real interest in playing it, but I have no trouble admitting that its a very good game. Its developers know their target market and they hit it perfectly. I cant even come close to saying the same thing of WoW, which just reeks of bait and switch. Lure people in with the promise of one type of game play then switch after you have then playing for a while.
WoWs developers really need to decide what they want, you cant deliver a game that is both hardcore raid and casual. (as an aside I think you can take a middle of the road approach to both but WoW doesnt attempt this) You cant deliver a game that is solo encouraged then switch to raid/group required for the endgame and last but not least you cant truly deliver good PvP in a game that is item but Blizzard continues to string people along promising all of the above. MMO's are about variety and options but you can't support diametricaly opposite playstyles and do any of them well.
None of this makes WoW a terrible game, but it excludes it from being a really good one and that isn't just a function of personal taste.
I agree on the bait and switch, but to me that doesn't invalidate the marvel that is the non-end-game of WoW, how well it is designed and how well it flows and to be honest how fun it was the first time through. Yes, the endgame sucks, and it's the main flaw of the game, but I don't mark the game down as much as you do because of that. I think we just have different grading systems.