Is PVP with no risk like Poker with no money ?

ginetti

Let's get something out of the way right away; I really enjoy PVP in most games, including MMORPG's.



I feel the PVP in games where there is nothing to be gained but bragging rights is like playing poker with mates, but not putting real money at stake.  Why would you care about going 'all in' when you have nothing to loose really, and everything to gain.

Not to say this form of PVP is a complete waste of time, but I do feel when there is something at stake (equipment, money, xp etc), the element and entire conflict is heightened to a new level.  The tension is that much higher, the anticipation, everything... because no one wants to loose the shirt of their backs...



I understand that not everyone likes the idea of having all their nice things looted off their lifeless corpse, that's why I propose each game contain a "Hardcore" PVP server (much like Rappelz, but unfortunately its broken at the moment).  Once you create your character, and select said Hardcore server, a message appears, something like: Warning, you are entering a Hardcore Player vs. Player Server, where other players can kill you willingly and loot your items / gold / money etc.  You cannot transfer characters to this server or from this server.



I for one would probably play 2 characters, my PVP Hardcore character, centred around making other PC's dead while my normal server character would be catered to grouping, Xping, adventuring and exploring.



Thanks for reading,



Ginetti.

zensaber

i would only like a hardcore pvp game if the person you killed dropped all his inventory and you could loot him, like in shadowbane, or where thieves could actually steal from players, well like shadowbane. They just need to make a better shadowbane

MajorBiggs

I would like to see this. It doesnt have to be a PVP centric game, but...a server with hardcore pvp such as shadowbane would be nice. Like how there's an RP, RPPVP, PVE, PVP server? well could there be a Hardcore server too? I think it'd keep the PVP guys out there pretty happy, especially those old AC Darktide folks.

ginetti

Originally posted by MajorBiggs

I would like to see this. It doesnt have to be a PVP centric game, but...a server with hardcore pvp such as shadowbane would be nice. Like how there's an RP, RPPVP, PVE, PVP server? well could there be a Hardcore server too? I think it'd keep the PVP guys out there pretty happy, especially those old AC Darktide folks.

And as a side benefit, it may well somewhat reduce the incident of random, haphazard PVP'ing on the normal servers, with those who are waning to vent, over at the Hardcore PVP server already.

Aelfinn

Is it like playing poker with no money? pretty much, but then again I enjoy myself playing texas hold'em all the time and I hate gambling.

Should there be a hardcore option in games? yes, but don't even try to force the majority to play with it, or the devs will end up with empty servers.

Gameloading

I think its not. Poker without bets doesn't give me any thrill. PVP without any risks gives me a good thrill, its the sense of competition that counts for me when pvping, not the reward/losses.

Eraserhead

I like the poker analogy. 

I don't like "hardcore pvp" but I do think players should be allowed to battle things out and fight their own disputes with proper consequences.  Life in a nanny state where you are prevented from even considering doing something wrong is just dull.

Lord_Z

Tbh the thing with you being able to steal, is that people who want to actually play the game and not want to get killed every so often by higher lvl people, pvp with dropping all the items is gambling and personally i think the player should be able to choose whether they want to be able to get attacked by others like for example on WoW, you can turn PVP on and then you can attack the horde (enemy players) and they can attack you.

A game where people are forced to have pvp and people who dont want to be attacked and killed are attacked and killed and then they steal you stuff well infact even without being able to steal its wrong really. I remember on a pvp server of wow and i was corpse camped by a lvl 60 (i was lvl 20) for nearly a hour and everytime i ressed i got killed by the same guy over again its not nice and its a big time waster it also happened when i beta tested Archlord i kept getting killed by this higher lvl guy, last time i ever make the mistake of going onto a pvp server.

Anyway /end rant oh and also reason why i chose wow as the example is cus thats the game im currently playing. :P

Eitherway if you mean the mmorpg's have a seperate server for it then im all for it, just as long as all the servers arent like it.

hercules

A thread done too often.

MMORPG devs swing with the market.If a market seems to small to be worth it they don't do it.

A true hardcore pvper would be more concerned about his kill ratio then loot.

However,thats not to say devs have not tried.Shadowbane is there.UO never i repeat never took away till i last played in 2002 (dunno now) the world of fellucia with loot pvp.It always been there and been said a lot of times.

But the pkers refused to use that world simply because there was lack of new players and miners to kill.They could have all gone back there and killed and looted each other but they never did.

However,i think each mmorpg should make provisions for such a server for those intrested.

Jimmy_Scythe

<sigh>



Here we go again....



should MMORPGs provide a hardcore PvP server? Yes, if only to shut up these whining gankers. Is PvP without risk pointless? No. If it was really all about risk, there would be various pain inflicting peripherals that would cause you physical harm every time your toon took damage. Can't get much more "hardcore" than that!



If PvP without risk is pointless then Battlefield 2, Madden 200X, Dawn of War, Starcraft, Forza Motorsport, Virtual On, Soul Calibur, and just about every other competitive multiplayer game would be far less popular. The fact that these are called GAMES pretty much designates these activities as pointless wastes of time.

starman999

Yes........

PVP should carry some risk like loss of money or damage to equipment etc in order to keep people from just zerging like crazy because it doesnt matter if they die.

I believe PVP without reward is pointless. The problem with games thus far (other than DAOC) is the lack of an incentive to PVP. Factions should be fighting over control of something whether it be a player city or a castle, fort what have you. Having control of such items as land or whatever should give the posessing faction certain advantages for as long as they hold that control. Something like double xp or special hit point or armor buffs.

All we are asking for is a reason to fight.

paulscott

looting doesn't make sense as armor is extremely customized for the wearer.  so your lugging around something that would only really fit in a small horse drawn wagon,  that has the value of less than the materials that its made with as you need to melt them down.  or if its something like say cloth its extremely reconizeable is would be more trouble than its worth.



not only that its a reletivly pointless mechanic  in itself as the gear has to be easy to obtain, taking away a extremely large part  of character development.



thirdly you are stupid for thinking that armor is the only thing worth gambling in PvP.

Eraserhead

A MMORPG without meaningful PvP has all the thrills and spills of competitive knitting.

hercules

Originally posted by starman999


Yes........
PVP should carry some risk like loss of money or damage to equipment etc in order to keep people from just zerging like crazy because it doesnt matter if they die.
I believe PVP without reward is pointless. The problem with games thus far (other than DAOC) is the lack of an incentive to PVP. Factions should be fighting over control of something whether it be a player city or a castle, fort what have you. Having control of such items as land or whatever should give the posessing faction certain advantages for as long as they hold that control. Something like double xp or special hit point or armor buffs.
All we are asking for is a reason to fight.

Erm DAoC,WoW and EQ2 all give you reason to pvp via the pvp rewards of powerful weapons and such.

I do however agree that  something like say DAoC after a while taking relics only became a sense of pride .Would be nice to see bigger boosts to winning such mighty pvp encounters like relics .

ginetti

Originally posted by paulscott

looting doesn't make sense as armor is extremely customized for the wearer.  so your lugging around something that would only really fit in a small horse drawn wagon,  that has the value of less than the materials that its made with as you need to melt them down.  or if its something like say cloth its extremely reconizeable is would be more trouble than its worth.



not only that its a reletivly pointless mechanic  in itself as the gear has to be easy to obtain, taking away a extremely large part  of character development.



thirdly you are stupid for thinking that armor is the only thing worth gambling in PvP.

Looting doesn't make sense?

Ever hear of the spoils of war/victory? Ever heard of selling said loot to a shop, or giving to guildies or (and my personal favourite) destroying the stuff right before their very corpse (so long as it is not very valuable of course )



So I doubt i'll be doing much 'lugging around' of armor, but I would certainly keep the items I think I could use, donate to a friend or trade.  And who knows, that player may well come back, perhaps with back up and take back what was hers / his and then some, which is all part of the thrill in my opinion.



And your 'thridly' point confuses me, where did I or anyone say armor is the only thing worth gambling in PvP?  I did however use it as an example, but by no means do I believe it's the 'only' reason to engage in PVP.



Ginetti.

hercules

Originally posted by ginetti

destroying the stuff right before their very corpse (so long as it is not very valuable of course )







Ginetti.

What possible purpose or sense does this have apart from displaying anti-social skills.You wonder why this type of pvp is a dying breed?

SnaKey

Best PVP Analogy EVER!

Poker w/o money blows!

baff

I don't have money to waste on poker, or time to waste regrinding loot.

Few things are more boring.

 

An exciting battle followed by a really  boring and long time, repeating the same old dance.

paulscott

all well keep yourself comforted in the fact that you guys ruined your own genre via actions like that.  making it untouchable to the devs as you ruined it for the general community, making it an unprofitable investment.



yes it is unrealistic to loot armor,   say for something extremely compactable such chain or leather.  even if the entire kit itself was designed to be extremely packable you're talking about something the size of a full book bag and 20-100 lbs(9 kgs to 45kgs),  considering you're already wearing a said kit yourself though distributed you could easially be carrying your body weight around...



thirdly I restate my third statement via changing it to being looting should be the primary punishment for death.



yes I have played and enjoyed loot based PvP, even If I rarely did loot(made a good deal of friends via being what I consider honorable in a game).



fourth/fifth games are supposed to be fun,  if you need self gratification to have fun go do some other stuff.   fun in MMO terms being so for all parties involved.

MMO's aren't solely about self gratification,  theres other people to enjoy experiances with

JackDonkey

Excellent analogy, in my experience with eve online there is an equivilant of bluffing and folding, which is lacking in WoW.  Eve pvp is as much of a pre engagement mindgame as it is knowing what buttons to push at which time.



I always liked to tell people on the wow boards that if you consider wow pvp, then you must also consider yahoo online poker pvp, but I never quite thought of the with or without money aspect.  cause yeah yahoo poker is playing poker without money, lots of people have fun doing it, but it isn't "real" and things like bluffing lose meaning.



In hold em you can bet high before the flop and make people fold, then if there are 2 2's and an 8 in the flop and you have an 8 in your hand it's a pretty good bet that you have the highest pair cause anyone with one 2 wouldv'e probably folded, in eve that means the guy with the 2 wouldv'e avoided engagement and in WoW they're like screw it, i'm going in to see what happens.

Brainy

I think what most people want are proper PVP rewards.  PVE is really no different, in that people kill monsters and such, they want loot, gold etc...  If when you PVE you didnt get anything from it other then to kill the monster, I think that would get boring for many.  PVP is the same.  There should be proper reward drops from kills.  

Isnt Warhammer doing something like this?  Where if you kill someone they will drop an game generated item?  Not an item from their inventory, but an item that is generated just like a mob or something.  I think this concept could be fun if the rewards are properly done and randomized.  Really good items should sometimes drop, just like if you were to PVE.

Oshryc

Yes this topic has been beat with a broom, but there is always room for thought. I think the op does have a point but his point is one sided. Take the unfair advantage out of pvp (high lvl vs low lvl) and put in a game where the combat is equal like dead or alive. Spin this in a bucket with a huge helping of MMORPG and you got what most gamers are hoping comes out soon.... hint Conan Hyborian Adventures. Blood Money anyone?

There is a game like what the op is requesting its EQ2 PVP servers and yes you can loot the hell out of people. Once you loose 5 plat for forgeting to go to the bank it really makes you think twice about this kind of server.

ghoul31

When you play Madden football do you lose your uniform when u get tackled? Of course not. You play it because its fun.

This whole thing about looting gear is just stupid.

 

Sinn

the only chance of full PVP looting happening is if a game with the actual concept in becomes massively successful - but as of right now people are to passionate about doing things the safe way where it doesnt really matter if you die because you'll just go right back into that battle..which tome is massively boring but i'm not one to fight about it eventually someone will give the hardcore pvp what they want no one has to join that certain server

Rodzilla

  I enjoy the thrill of the battle  in pvp. I really dont care about items in games no matter how they come pve or pvp. I play these type games for the adventure and excitment through pvp or pve with a few friends.

ginetti

Originally posted by Cobane


Yes this topic has been beat with a broom, but there is always room for thought. I think the op does have a point but his point is one sided. Take the unfair advantage out of pvp (high lvl vs low lvl) and put in a game where the combat is equal like dead or alive. Spin this in a bucket with a huge helping of MMORPG and you got what most gamers are hoping comes out soon.... hint Conan Hyborian Adventures. Blood Money anyone?
There is a game like what the op is requesting its EQ2 PVP servers and yes you can loot the hell out of people. Once you loose 5 plat for forgeting to go to the bank it really makes you think twice about this kind of server.

Hi Cobane,



In my opening post, I may have left out detail about what sort of PVP I'd like to see occur.

I'd love an Arena option, where by two people, even of the same faction / sides can enter and do battle while spectators can... heh spectate, with the option of having looting on or off (up to the players) in this case.

This could also be included for 2 vs 2 or more.

However, beyond that, its up to the developers. Wether the  PVP is level restricted (for example, within 10 levels or risk gaining wrath like in Rappelz ) or have zoned PVP or anything else the developers come up with.



I would just be happy if a Hardcore option exsisted on most of the current MMORPG's out there currently.



PS: yes i suppose loosing that much money in EQ2 would make you think twice about that sort of server... not for all tastes, but certainly for some.



Ginetti.