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Is PVP with no risk like Poker with no money ?
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Weapons and armor in Lineage 2 take weeks, *months* to earn. If I die and drop my S-grade helmet, I'm not going to "respawn and come back with the exact same gear". I'm going to declare war on your entire alliance if you don't give it back.
You drop your entire inventory except your equipped weapon in shadowbane when you die. Imagine an entire party hunting for 3-4 hours who then get rolled by an rpk party. You don't "just" go and earn all that stuff back. It's a great incentive to hunt down the people who killed you to get your stuff back. It made for some of the most fun and engaging pvp I've ever been part of.
Should most MMORPG's have a Hardcore PVP server option?
Just focus on the current results in the poll in the first post... looks like most people are in support of a dedicated PVP hardcore style server, even if they themselves wont play, via a 3 to 1 majority.
I like the results thus far,
Peace.
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MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I have reached page 8 and then became very tired of sheer narrowmindedness and lack of vision.
And guys, if only MMORPG you ever played is WoW, please don't voice your opinions as if you can actualy back them up...
Skill over levels, impowered crafting, NPC police, (and)or PC police, faction penalty (maybe even Outlaw towns that would surve as only place where PKers would be able to trade, but with low or no security, so it would be interesting to see how PKers would coexist in towns populated only by likes of them...)
Instead of makind someones char die the same instant his HP reach zero, why not make him loose conciusnes untill he bleeds to death or a healer comes along, maybe not all people want that killing blow, kicking someones ass and taking some of his loot would be enough now and then...
Making inventory more realistic so a person can't cary 2 trucks and a mazda, to prevent destroying loot, make it drop to the ground, but if server can't handle it, make it so that there is a graphic representation (like a shiny coin that can be spoted from a distance) of the loot droped that remains in the game world for set amount of time....
I see many ways of acomplishing this, all it takes is a litle vision and alot of programing skills, vision I might have but other skills necesary to make such a game I lack...
Poker without money is not the same as poker with money, but liking any of those 2 types isn't wrong, it's just personal and it's all about choice and shouldn't be about lack of the same...
on a side note, looks as though Warhammer has the most interesting PVP for some time...
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=16685&type=wmv&pl=game
Check it out. And then watch a sample of the game in action.
PS: Anyone know when this game is coming out, approx. ?
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MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
2. Rewards or penalties should not be the reason people pvp. I mean people don't give the homeless food because they want other to see them as good people, but because they are good people who careless about criticism to do the right thing. However, if these people are only doing this for the benefit of being recognition then they never cared for the homeless to begin with. The same applies to those who wish to put rewards or penalties behind PvP. PvP and acknowledgement of the skill level should be the only reward we look forward too.
3. Yes, it's personal choice. However, I (and other game companies) have seen that "risk rules" have more CONS then PROS making such pvp difficult, if not impossible, to implement in today's rpgs. Today's pvp is decided by CLASS, TEAMWORK THEN SKILL, the way it should be. MMORPG now carter to larger audiences and moreover, a general audience.
These guys who are bitching and moaning about how PvP has gotten worse are simply people who can't adjust to change and wish to MMORPG world to go back to dark ages of gaming where everything is exclusive. This view alone makes all of their arguments invalidate because they are trying to go backwards rather than forward in gaming advancement. They aren't trying to make EVERYONE HAPPY, they are trying to make THEMSELVES HAPPY by trying (and failing) to convience people to bring back a system of gaming that's long been outdate.
And no, I don't think MMORPG should make servers or option for incredibly small group of people because they wish to be ol'school deviants. Again, let's move on people, nothing to see and stop feeding the trolls.
How about Blackjack with no money?
19? Go ahead hit me, I don't give a damn.
2. Rewards or penalties should not be the reason people pvp. I mean people don't give the homeless food because they want other to see them as good people, but because they are good people who careless about criticism to do the right thing. However, if these people are only doing this for the benefit of being recognition then they never cared for the homeless to begin with. The same applies to those who wish to put rewards or penalties behind PvP. PvP and acknowledgement of the skill level should be the only reward we look forward too.
3. Yes, it's personal choice. However, I (and other game companies) have seen that "risk rules" have more CONS then PROS making such pvp difficult, if not impossible, to implement in today's rpgs. Today's pvp is decided by CLASS, TEAMWORK THEN SKILL, the way it should be. MMORPG now carter to larger audiences and moreover, a general audience.
These guys who are bitching and moaning about how PvP has gotten worse are simply people who can't adjust to change and wish to MMORPG world to go back to dark ages of gaming where everything is exclusive. This view alone makes all of their arguments invalidate because they are trying to go backwards rather than forward in gaming advancement. They aren't trying to make EVERYONE HAPPY, they are trying to make THEMSELVES HAPPY by trying (and failing) to convience people to bring back a system of gaming that's long been outdate.
And no, I don't think MMORPG should make servers or option for incredibly small group of people because they wish to be ol'school deviants. Again, let's move on people, nothing to see and stop feeding the trolls.
Omg go forward with games like wow gw vanguard your kidding right?
These games and many more are backwards like your opinion about what is go forward:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Well, DUUH!
I just don't see how making games with less options and less and less freedom = progress!?!??
I can understand that you don't want this kind of PVP, but how can you say that no game should have it?
Why are you so afraid of freedom and choice?
"Those that can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither"
I am not much of a PvPer myself. But Pokers itself isn't really appealing in itself, PvP could be.
But, I find it a LOT more interesting to have a goal like: control the central area, then trying to defeat someone. The reasons are many. First, someone losing is not necessarily dead. Someone who died didn't necessarily lose. See, I find extremely boring myself if I enter a PvP zone and after 15 seconds, my opponent flee and I get nothing from that. I also find it annoying when I am attacked and I choose to run instead of fighting? It is a LOT funnier to fight and die than to run like a wuss.
So, if PvP isn't centered about killing other players, but actually at holding an area, now that start been interesting. If the consequences are all linked to the control of the area and no consequences are linked to your death/survival, you also add a LOT.
The other day in CoV, there was 3 gankers in a zone and my guild mate complains. So I switch to my most powerfull character and entered said zone with another friend. These gankers where no match and we defeat them on the open field, so they start running like school girls and try to gank anyone else, while avoiding us the best they could. We hunt them until they give up (I even enter the enemy base to kill them and was zapped by drones a few times, but manage to kill them more then once, even in the hero's base). Was that fun? I don't think it was much fun for anyone. We even salute many enemies that we avoid in the zone, since they wheren't gankers but actually increasing other peoples funs of that PvP.
I dunno, something has to be worked around...and ganking/running isn't my idea of fun PvP.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well, DUUH!
I just don't see how making games with less options and less and less freedom = progress!?!??
I can understand that you don't want this kind of PVP, but how can you say that no game should have it?
Why are you so afraid of freedom and choice?
"Those that can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve neither"
Dude, it's call the greater good. You can never perform the "ultimate good" because not everybody agree what good is. Today's business concept is based on the idea they need to appeal as many customers as possible under one common idea. They are making MMORPG to appeal to a general audience and making them player friendly so they can get mass amount of revenue. This isn't just Blizzard doing this, but other gaming companies too who realize there is profitable market in making their game mainstream. The second reason why you don't see risk pvp in or other types is because they are too many CONs then they are PROs.
Risk PvP for Example
Pros
- Self-Gratification
- Death and consequences of losing something enforces the idea of teamwork and skill gameplay among players even more.
Cons
- Whiners complaining to devs
- Gankers killing people unfairly
- Powergaming
- Gameplay style isolates new players.
- Group dominance
- PvP grind
- Overspecialization and force grouping.
- Small population of people are playing this type of PvP
Now do you see why devs don't put this crap into games anymore. I'm sure they are honorable players here, but you have to remember they are also bad players who play these games too.
1) Poker was made with betting in mind. Basketball wasn't. Doesn't mean that basketball is less of a competition than poker.
2) Victory goes to the bigger army. Always. No matter how balanced individual classes and gear may be, a larger group will always defeat a smaller group. Bees are smaller than my thumb, but if I piss off a hive of them, they can and will kill me. BTW, Bigger also includes level of equipment that a group is outfitted with. A couple of heavily armed high school students can easily massacre a couple hundred unarmed children.
3) There are personal rewards and group rewards. Most of the FFA PvP crowd seems obsessed with personal rewards rather than rewards that would benefit their guild and / or faction. In other words, they would rather get that uber sword of pwnage than capture a shrine that would give all the members of their faction +10 fire damage DPS on every attack.
4) There's this weird BDSM vibe that seems to infect these kinds of discussions. When you hear the anecdotal "evidence" these guys give, it's always about the thrill they got when winning. If it's about Risk vs. Reward, why don't we hear more about the inevitable losses that come with risk?
I've been having this same fuckin' argument since I came on this forum. It's tired. It's beyond old. it's completely circular.
Yes I think that MMOs should all have hardcore (FFA PvP with permadeath), Softcore (FFA PvP), and normal (straight PvE) servers. But without a stream of non-combatants to gank, most of the FFA PvP crowd will just disperse. This was actually documented as early as 1985 on the text MUDs of the day.
YOU SIR, ARE A GENIUS!
If 2. was to be "false", wouldn't the game still be "broken" due to class imbalances? I've witnessed several sieges in L2 where the defending clan were outnumbered 4:1 - both in terms of levels/gear and amount - and still won.
3. L2's pvp is some of my favourite because of the clan vs clan pvp, not 1on1 arena duels and such. My class was *designed* for sieges, I rolled it *specifically* for mass pvp.
4. I often joined the teamspeak or ventrilo server of my opposing clan or alliance in L2 during our wars. It was all a good laugh as long as both sides are mature about it. Because my class sucked in 1v1 or small scale pvp, I virtually never won small skirmishes, but I'd still participate in them rather than log off or grind pve safely.
I feel many more pve gamers take the game far more seriously than pvp'ers. When I lost my ship in Eve I'd joke about being rich cos I got so much insurance, when I died in L2 I'd joke about having a lot of SP and not wasting CP pots. I've never ever forcelogged or deliberately crashed my client because I knew I couldn't win a fight, I've never ever used one single BSOE in L2. The titles that my clan leaders gave me ranged from "stoic" to "thud" to "crashnburn".
I guess one way to put it, is that I suck at pvp, but I still enjoy it. Risk and reward just makes it that more vivid.
I still don't get what the big deal is. Why not just let us enjoy our risk/reward pvp games? I don't run around demanding your games to have these elements, so I don't understand what's wrong with us enjoying it for ourselves.
It's not a question of wether you enjoy or dislike PVP (and there are so many forms of it or ways to do it, not just WoW's way), but it's a question of tastes. We each have our own, some want and desire Risk PVP, others don't.
So make us our own PVP hardcore server in MMORPG's please!
You know it makes sense!
And as always , the poll speaks for itself.
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MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
While discussion here has taken many shapes, sides and forms, the poll has seen a consistant 3 to 1 in favour of having a dedicated PVP server in MMORPG's (if suited of course).
I wonder if the people that make these games happen and sign the checks have seen it.
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MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
Thank you.
The poll speaks for itself
Even after you guys got proven wrong, you guys are trying to make a case. At this point your post are becoming totally amusing and we trollishness is becoming more vivid to the people around you. Please let the topic died.
Even after you guys got proven wrong, you guys are trying to make a case. At this point your post are becoming totally amusing and we trollishness is becoming more vivid to the people around you. Please let the topic died.
Proven wrong? LMAO
Maybe if you stop bumping this thread with trash it would have a chance to die?
Go on, reply to me, you know you want to! Bump bump and away!