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Is PVP with no risk like Poker with no money ?
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Regarding your comment that perma death is the ONLY risk worth having...
I for one consider the fact that if there exists the possiblity that I can loose some OR all of my equipment / money on a server,the risk is great enough to give PVP more meaning to me.
If in your opinion the "only reall risk with PVP is permadeath", than that's 100% correct, but only for you waverat81, and of course, those who share your opinion. However, stating that it's the only real risk worth having for PVP in general, is laughable.
I'm by far a developer, but I honestly believe there are a number of varied ways of having a 'risk' PVP server.
Where does it say you should have to loose "ALL" of your posessions. Perhaps all players get a small number of tokens he or she may use to protect a number of prized items upon death?
Or make it a random roll to see which item(s) equiped you loose (and to counter those who would get 'naked' before dying, make equipment stick to you once PVP is engaged) and also along with the item(s), a portion of money carried.
In closing, there are many options and avenues to have PVP modified in MMORPG's to lend them an element of risk, without going all out and offering a complete and total loot of the player.
I would just like to see the devs use some initiatvie, and instigate a Hardcore server for the future or even current games they are working on.
The option, that's all I ask.
What do you all think?
Cheers,
Ginetti.
----
MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
also equipment makes up less than 5% of a real PvP game, makeing a game based around real PvP
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Designed for bitches.
The 'hardcore' PVP that people keep whining for isn't like poker at all. In gank-and-loot PVP like the 'hardcores' idolize, there is no concept of risk versus reward (despite the fact that 'hardcores' say the phrase a lot). I can go out with my cheap fairly effective stuff and ambush a guy who's just spent all day mining, if I win I get a ton of valuable loot and if I lose I just lose my cheap stuff. Or I can take 2-3 buddies and still get the same reward from the guy.
'Hardcore' PVP games show this complete lack of risk vs reward very well in practice, you'll see all kinds of ambushes, ganks, gangs-hunting-singles, combat-hunting-noncombat, and other lopsided fights where the 'hardcore' player doesn't really risk anything.
Plus every 'hardcore' PVP game I've heard of doesn't even qualify as a good PVP game by my standards, they end up like EVE where overall players spend way more time PVE grinding and traveling to deal with lost fights than actually engaging in PVP fights. I'll take PVP games that focus on actual PVP fighting rather than a hardcore PVE grind, thanks.
This about sums it all up for me as well. While losing something in PvP is necessary, losing anything significant translates into "grind or gank."
Regarding your comment that perma death is the ONLY risk worth having...
I for one consider the fact that if there exists the possiblity that I can loose some OR all of my equipment / money on a server,the risk is great enough to give PVP more meaning to me.
If in your opinion the "only reall risk with PVP is permadeath", than that's 100% correct, but only for you waverat81, and of course, those who share your opinion. However, stating that it's the only real risk worth having for PVP in general, is laughable.
I'm by far a developer, but I honestly believe there are a number of varied ways of having a 'risk' PVP server.
Where does it say you should have to loose "ALL" of your posessions. Perhaps all players get a small number of tokens he or she may use to protect a number of prized items upon death?
Or make it a random roll to see which item(s) equiped you loose (and to counter those who would get 'naked' before dying, make equipment stick to you once PVP is engaged) and also along with the item(s), a portion of money carried.
In closing, there are many options and avenues to have PVP modified in MMORPG's to lend them an element of risk, without going all out and offering a complete and total loot of the player.
I only asked that question because most people that are in favor of looting in pvp are justifying you can just get your items back with a bigger group helping you out. Basically negating your whole risk/reward ideal, because technically there is no risk, just bring more numbers.I would just like to see the devs use some initiatvie, and instigate a Hardcore server for the future or even current games they are working on.
The option, that's all I ask.
What do you all think?
Cheers,
Ginetti.
I guarantee this situation would never occur with a permadeath situation, not saying I'm for one just the facts. I can almost guarantee that pk'er would think twice as hard about ganking someone if the risk for him was the revenge from said person and losing everything he had including his character.
Player looting, isn't a risk/reward situation it's just a time sink. Hell, you can never get a true risk/reward system in a game, what's the point?
I personally find PVP entertaining even without any gain/loss. Of course when something is at stake all of the emotions that arise while PVP'ing do multiply and make it much more fun.
I suppose that is why i can agree with your poker example, but of course we all are different and we all approach this topic in different ways and with different views.
I didn't read all of the posts so someone might have mentions this... but i think there are ways around the whole Hardcore PVP system. I think if game is made with PVP loss in mind adding Hardcore Areas, PVP gambling (money, items), or other settings which allow users/players to make a choice, if they want to put their assets at stake in order to gain something can be implemented and are implemented in some games. I think that can work well.
Even those (thrill seeking junkies) who are willing to put up the most valuable items they own would be able to either enter those areas or bet them in duels for example.
Just my 2 Cents.
Cheers
Oz
Infected with Neoteric Toxin
Administrator of Cabaldatabase.com
Taking items seems fine, ive played games where that happens and it was quite enjoyable. Just make it so you can keep like your best item or something of that nature, because otherwise you can lose something you spent months getting in a flash.
The worst option in my opinion is losing expirience. That is just agrivating, The person who kills you gains nothing, while you lose pure gametime. losing items is one thing, because you can get those back if you have money, and it gives you another reason to play the economy, but losing expirience just ruins it for me..... this also holds true for PVE
That's exactly why developers should seek to employ ideas to help prevent a 'total loot' system. As I mentioned in a previous post, I’m by far a developer of any kind, but I could fathom an idea whereby you receive a precious few tokens you assign to certain items. Should you suddenly obtain some super piece of equipment/item, you can unassign a particular item and reassign the token to your newly acquired item.
But what I'm calling for is to have SOME element of risk in the form of a 'hardcore' server option.
I played much WOW, and from personal experience, I would always plan my attacks, and aim for someone higher level than myself for the sheer delight and achievment of killing a more 'powerful' PC.
At the time, I was an undead shadow priest, very powerful for 1 on 1 encounters. I would either totally engage my enemy, or if they were many levels above me, observe as they fought a mob, and charge in while they were most vulnerable.
Of course, I more than realized I had revenge on my back as a result, but let me tell you, the sweaty palms and heightened game play experience as a result was well worth it.
After a while of this, I also came to realize... "hey, it doesn’t really matter if that paladin comes back to seek revenge, I’ll just die and respawn not far from here. No biggie."
Some sort of risk is all that I'm calling for, for those who are genuinely seeking it.
Agan, not a total looting, but make it hurt a little at the very least.
Remember, those that have felt the sting of having some of their loot/money taken, can always come back, to reclaim it.
Once more, thanks for reading,
Ginetti.
----
MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
That's exactly why developers should seek to employ ideas to help prevent a 'total loot' system. As I mentioned in a previous post, I’m by far a developer of any kind, but I could fathom an idea whereby you receive a precious few tokens you assign to certain items. Should you suddenly obtain some super piece of equipment/item, you can unassign a particular item and reassign the token to your newly acquired item.
But what I'm calling for is to have SOME element of risk in the form of a 'hardcore' server option.
I played much WOW, and from personal experience, I would always plan my attacks, and aim for someone higher level than myself for the sheer delight and achievment of killing a more 'powerful' PC.
i like the token ideaAt the time, I was an undead shadow priest, very powerful for 1 on 1 encounters. I would either totally engage my enemy, or if they were many levels above me, observe as they fought a mob, and charge in while they were most vulnerable.
Of course, I more than realized I had revenge on my back as a result, but let me tell you, the sweaty palms and heightened game play experience as a result was well worth it.
After a while of this, I also came to realize... "hey, it doesn’t really matter if that paladin comes back to seek revenge, I’ll just die and respawn not far from here. No biggie."
Some sort of risk is all that I'm calling for, for those who are genuinely seeking it.
Agan, not a total looting, but make it hurt a little at the very least.
Remember, those that have felt the sting of having some of their loot/money taken, can always come back, to reclaim it.
Once more, thanks for reading,
Ginetti.
I mean, look at DAOC, there's major rewards to PvP, but nothing to lose. The game rewards the winners, without penalizing the losers. That's the ideal system, imho.
The problem is that it wouldn't work in any games where cooperation between opposing sides is too easy. I thought the RvR idea was great anyhow. I like knowing who my allies are, knowing that no matter how stupud people may be, they can't stab me in the back even if they wanted to. Hmm, but I digress...
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
*sigh* Poor poor horse
And next week, another beating from anohter noobie.
Poor poor horse...
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
It's a damn video game, nothing in it should be a 'biggie'. Of course, the funniest thing about this is that none of the 'hardcores' actually want to play the game with real money at stake, they just want pretty pixels to be risked.
Personally I am a tournament player at heart, least when it comes to poker.
That is essentially poker with little to no risk, as you pay up front and the play to get that cash back, and hopefully a lot more.
Tournament poker is indeed one of the most popular forms and certainly the most wiever friendly if you watch the WPT, and to me the most fun way of playing.
That is essentialy how a lot of the PvP is built in many games today, you have a reward, be it status or faction or the ability to get better gear of whatever, but almost no risk aside from some monetary costs and perhaps some XP.
Some games have no rewards aside from the fun of it but dieing still carries a penalty.
Almost no games have, be it computer or otherwise, a huge risk and moderately large rewards (as in risking your entire gear or even you char for some unknown price ), and it is like that for a reason, the human mind, at least the intelligent human mind, just do not play against odds like that.
No one bets two thousand dollars on a bet where first price is one thousand dollars, well not no one certainly, but almost no one then.
There is probably a market for an ultra hardcore game as suggested in places here, but do not expect a AAA product, or even AA, businesses tend to want to make money on their chosen trade.
And you can not just smack a FFA full loot PvP server on an existing game, they are made up around rare or epic gear being nodrop, and body loot would nullify that, unless you also had permadeath in wich case said server would consist of one player or perhaps one alliance, wich would soon tire of no one to kill and leave as well.
You would need an entirely new game with mechanics made for that purpose, and I just do not hink there is enough cash or even longevity, in a game like that.
My own opinion though, but its seems to coincide with most people who create these things.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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To the OP. I hope that you are still there. Take a look at this for a better understanding of the following statements : Skill-based ideas and design
I'm working on a project involving pvp. But in my game, there are no items. I only use power/energy levels and skills. Armor, weapons, spells, etc... all skills with a enery cost/upkeep. In this ecosystem, players need to kill others to gain more power. What is interesting when I consider your poker analogy is that I want to include a system where you can loot skills. In this game the real resource is skill, and there are created by the players for whatever purpose (mainly combat).
In GW for example, skills are costumisable and this is great. So I guess my idea to allow pvpers to create their own skills is not so weird. If you kill another player you can loot one of his skills, and you will take one who complete your character. This skill has requirements and maybe you will not be able to use it, but once trained it can be a great force in your weaponry. In all games to date I have never see a character lose skills. In my game skills decay if not trained, so it is not a big deal if when pvping you lose an untrained one. Skill decay allow newbies to catch up with veterans, not like in other games.
For example, you have trained the skill wear plate armor. You fight a warrior and lose. Since he is a warrior he decide to loot your skill, it is like if you lost a plate breastplate in a fantasy game. You will recreate the skill and retrained it, and the other guy will just have to train it. I think this system have a natural incentive to pvp without punishing too much for lost battles. Also this add depth, when you think of classes in general. If you rely on one skill and you lose it, your character is... like dead. So you have to plan your character advancement to make up for lacking skills, because it will happen when pvping. I think there will a cap, but I didn't think much of it yet.
For people who don't want to lose their skills at all, I have nothing to offer. Carebears will not be welcome in this game, i'm tired of them. So my answer to your question is yes. PVP with no risk, can be quite fun, but that is not enough for me. You made me laugh when you said you ganked higher level players in WoW as a shadow priest. I did the same thing when I was 57 against epix-geared players. I had a lot of fun times ganking them, because there was a great challenge. When I got epixed though, I was boring. Anyway do you think skill looting is a good mean create a dynamic pvp system ?
That's supposedly why people want pvp. Then why do "hardcore pvpers" want to remove the challenge from pvp?
First lets address the issues of levels, If its a open pvp game(with realism, ie no eye in the sky) most people will just kill people randomly, and normally(80% of the wolves) will prey on the weaker sheep. They will camp areas where people actively try to level, and take them out. Eventually the sheep will start to phase out, since getting high enough to fight back won't seem appealing, especially since they have to regear everytime they die. You can say "get more friends to help you out!" "get a guild to help you out!" Honestly thats just not appealing to most gamers. Why should they spend a extra 100-200 hours of gametime just trying to get to a point where they can start enjoying the game. Wolves can not coexist with sheep in this type of environment. Wolves need the sheep, but sheep DO NOT need the wolves, hence being forced around them isn't fun.
Next lets address item progression. This can not exist. Period. All items will have to be reasonably easy to obtain, with the only "rare" items being so rare that they can not be taken into character builds(since all wolves go for the fotm builds) But rather something that when you do get its something important. If you had to grind for gear, then have it drop, most wolves will prey on people once, and then the sheep run to regear at certain zones, only to encounter more wolves who prey on them at that time. It's like getting your leg torn off then dragging yourself to a doctor, only to find out hes a wolf as well, and continues to feast on you.
So now your left with a game that has no levels, and no item progression. Whats the point of playing? PvP. Why would a sheep go here? Answer: They wouldn't. Wolves will begin to realize that theres no sheep to prey on and begin to get flustered, where are their people to gank? They will try to get their kills from other wolves but soon become flustered at their semi-frequent deaths and quit. Since true wolves play for the gank, not for the fight(which i feel you do, by some of your examples such as waiting for someone to be weakened by mobs, tell tell sign right there). Whos left? Now that the sheep don't play, and the feral wolves don't play either? Your left with the wolves who are more interested in marking their territories, and expanding their group. This means the game needs player cities, and full razing. This also leads to a group based game, no longer will you be able to truely go solo and get your kills. Which will turn off even more players. New players will be turned off by the hype surrounding the game of "you need to get a good guild to do anything." "find a good guild and they will help you get started." Not everyone likes being in a guild, and even fewer like needing the guild just to play the game.
Your market will get ever slimmer, the problem with open pvp games is that they don't bring in a constant supply of fresh meat.(you can say eve, but ill argue that to the death, since that game is popular because of its genre). This is a developers worst nightmare.
True wolves need sheep
wolves are content with sheep and wolves, but need the game to support them rather then the players supporting the game.
sheep don't need the wolves at all.
Let's now address the players themselves.
Why are you playing the game?
1. The game itself is fun.
2. I enjoy the challenge of fighting players.
3. I enjoy the feeling of ruining someone elses experience.
If you choose 3 then you really need to re-evaluate why you play these games. Most hardcore pvpers arent really thinking of the risk(dont claim you are, ive seen it before and honestly none of us believe you), but rather of what they can make other players experience.
Then lets address the issue of re-gearing. What does this bring to the game? Downtime, having to regear after every loss(which should happen quite often a skill based pvp centric game). You have to constantly get gear made for you. Which is why having a guild is helpful. But beyond that. Most players have a alt, alts are the cowards way to play. They have their pk, they have their crafter, and they have their play alt. They pk on their alt, regear with their crafter, and log out and hide on their alt whenever they get too much heat on them, they come back later on when the heats down and resume their rampage. Is it every truely "hard" to regear. no, not really, theres really no fear of death theres no risk, since you can just relog for 5 minutes and have 4 new sets of armor made for your pk.
Which is one of the reasons why i say that true pks never feel or play for risk. Because they always have backups so their gameplay is never ruined. The pks/wolves need the sheep to pray on because thats why they play.
Honestly its just truely not a option in the long run, and i'll say it again, DONT quote eve on me. The game is a space game, its a space mmo. It system is designed for space. If you put the games entire game onto a fantasy scheme, you won't be successful.
i reskilled and now i can finish any caster with 2hits instant kill
every 2 min
im immune to spells for 5sec with a skill(2min cd) so if the 2hits shouldnt be enough np
i can kill every caster and then move on
so basically with your system i could go to the horde territory
search for casters who grind alone, kill them, take what took them x hours in ~3sec and then move on
when they come back to the corpse i would be already gone
-no way for revenge...
having lost my stuff with no chance for revenge would piss me off as a player
one word: subscriptions...
btw i would instantly start to play on a hardcore pvp server if it should come ever out :]
would be fun if the epics of raiders would go arround the ganker teams ^o^
what also should be changed: allies should be able to kill allies, i met several who really needed it...
Pi*1337/100 = 42
I find this thread to be very interesting; I agree that PvP with no rewards/loss is pretty much a fruitless cause. I to often find myself wondering the whole point of PvP in games such as in WoW, where there is ultimately no meaning besides pride (which is a good reason, but often becomes boring). As for me, PvP is the most important aspect of the game, so I would agree with a "hardcore" server. Just like in poker, its really not quite as fun without the risk, as in life everything has a consequence (good/bad) so I believe that PvP should follow suit. Looking back into the days of Asheron's Call Darktide, I can say that I have yet to experience the same effects that games PvP system brought. Every time I got into a battle I would get the biggest adrenaline rush. Having everything to lose and everything to gain really added to the experience. My heart rate would sky rocket up and my hands would start shaking crazy, and winning would bring absolute pleasure, while loosing brought pain. I just cannot find that anymore in a game. But of course the bad side is ganking/high levels vs. low levels, but even then, people who got ganked would call for back up, which often led to insane battles of groups vs. group
.
For me, PvP is a very important part of the game, so I would completely avoid a "hardcore" server as gank-and-loot mechanics mean that people overall do more PVE grinding than PVP fighting.