Women Gamers and The Power of the Feminine

Keridwan

Femmes Fatales





There has been much discussion in these forums about gender and women and girl gamers. Inevitably there have been some very considered and constructive views, and there have naturally been immature, narrow and silly comments. There is, however, an alternative view that has been expressed in the activities of a "feminine only" group called Femmes Fatales who played Dark Age of Camelot for some five years, and later moved to World of Warcraft, GuildWars and Lineage 2. Femmes Fatales adopted a radically different perspective on gaming values. We wanted to emphasize the "power of the feminine" in MMOs and made no apologies for being separatist and exclusive in this respect. We felt that men as well as women are able to express and appreciate these qualities and in turn adopted an "anti feminist" stance.



Please see the following Blog entry for a brief discussion



http://keridwanthompson.spaces.live.com/



Femmes Fatales will be relocating to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, and eventually Age of Conan and Warhammer in 2007. Our web site is currently under going an overhaul, details to be published later.



Please note that our policy is "feminine" or if you prefer "female only" characters.

jezvin

Do you let people play male chars?

just wondering



at least we don't have to assume a guy on the other end for these gals





or do we

jk







any way good luck with your guild.

War_Dancer

Originally posted by jezvin

Do you let people play male chars?

just wondering



at least we don't have to assume a guy on the other end for these gals





or do we

jk







any way good luck with your guild.

Which could be a pity, the way some people ask I've been tempted to lie and claim I'm a guy in real life

Rikimaru_X

I don't know. Why not have the discussion right here, rather than just going to look at it though a blog. Do you want a discussion or are you just advertising this? If you want the discussion, bring it on, but talking about the discussion of females playing video games then going about a guild/clan of females who play mmorpgs...it just seems like an Ad. I'll view the blog tomorrow. I was looking forward to the discussion in here.

Keridwan

Originally posted by Rikimaru_X

I don't know. Why not have the discussion right here, rather than just going to look at it though a blog. Do you want a discussion or are you just advertising this? If you want the discussion, bring it on, but talking about the discussion of females playing video games then going about a guild/clan of females who play mmorpgs...it just seems like an Ad. I'll view the blog tomorrow. I was looking forward to the discussion in here.

Hello Rikimaru, thanks for your reply. I was tempted to go into the details here and as you suggest open the debate with some key arguments. However, the full discussion on the blog is long and a bit technical, so I decided to provide a brief overview here and give those interested a link to the fuller discussion. In the Blog we define what we mean by "the feminine". I am hoping that those who read the Blog will either message me or include some of the (more controversial) claims here. I am sorry if it appears like an AD it wasn't intended that way.



If I may offer a small corrective Rikimaru, this is not really a discussion about "females playing video games" it is more about distinctions between feminine and masculine MMO players and how this maps out in guilds, character development and design and how gamers develop an on-line identity or role.

Asamof

Why do you feel the need to create barriers between sexes in online games that revolve around the social aspect?



Well, hopefully you don't act like the fragdolls and scream out "U GOT KILLD BY A GUUUUUUUUUUURL!!11" everytime you kill a male avatar...

War_Dancer

Originally posted by Asamof

Why do you feel the need to create barriers between sexes in online games that revolve around the social aspect?



Well, hopefully you don't act like the fragdolls and scream out "U GOT KILLD BY A GUUUUUUUUUUURL!!11" everytime you kill a male avatar...

Well just speaking as a grrl gamer and not as a member of the femme fatales (never been a member) but women only guilds for me wouldn't be about barriers. They're about creating a comfortible atmosphere and getting away from the attitude that some guys have towards women and after all it doesn't stop the members of the guild interacting with men outside of the guild.

I fully hope they don't go "U GOT KILLD BY A GUUUUUUURL!!11" too though

 

Cymdai

While I'm familiar with Femmes Fatales, I for one am not a large fan of drawing lines between people.



This includes race, gender, or religion. These are things best kept out-of-game in my honest opinion, and I for one believe the anonymity associated with virtual reality one of MMORPG's biggest blessings. After all, MMORPG's are one of the few places where intelligence, looks, financial status, and personal background are completely ignored, and I support this! Players should be judged for their in-game abilities and behavior, not external factors. All of this is merely my opinion of course.

Unknown

Hey Keridwan



This is a real;ly really interesting post, im really curious about this, unfortunately i could not open the msn space link you have provided, but i would very like to be in contact with you and debate this issue further.



That aside, i have recently written a brief comment on how Asian MMOs are making online gaming more accessible to female gamers and maybe not enpowering them, but certainly bringing them to an equal level.



I have studied femmme fatale theories in film studies and this cerrtainly resonate with some feminist theories i have researched. I'ts no real secret that Western gaming have a 'masculine gaze' There is a clear sex bias involved, (buff heroe and sexy females) and in a way it confronts female gamers with a catch-21. If they play male characters, isn't that subscribing to the male gaze by 'wanting to roleplay a male character' while playing female character on hand also does not escape the male gaze by accomendating to the svelte sexy young female stereotype.



(Maybe should just ignored all that theory rant, maybe you guys just want some 'gemme fatale' PK action)



For a more liberating, non sexist game try Second Life

Keridwan

Originally posted by buddhabeads

Hey Keridwan



This is a real;ly really interesting post, im really curious about this, unfortunately i could not open the msn space link you have provided, but i would very like to be in contact with you and debate this issue further.

Hello Buddhabeads, thanks for the reply. This is certainly the kind of response I was hoping for and will contact you to discuss further. Have to dash now, but will respond to your comments laterz.



You can now access the msn space, sorry but I forgot the syndicalise it for open access. It should be straightforwards now.





The Will to Power is a frugal resource, you don't need to think about it when your walking ....

Gameloading

I found this guild to be so extremely rediculous, that I'm pretty sure a part of me just died laughing out loud. Not because of the rediculous rule to exclude male avatars, but because you guys focus on things that should not be the main focus of MMORPG gaming.



"First and foremost we wanted to convey a strong relationship between beauty and the virtual body in on-line gaming, We were not interested in ugliness. The avatars we designed and developed in Femmes Fatales mirrored this interest. In fact it is probably true to say that the most ardent feminist is very likely to be an ugly woman. These women resent beautiful women. So how does the beauty of a body detach that body from the contentment of our practical, expressive, and sexual relations and make of that body an object of excessive passions? How does this manifest itself in the world of MMOs? Why and how does beauty organize the body, linking up forms, colors, and movements into a snare for our lusts? Bataille focuses exclusively on the feminine body, inasmuch as it is the supremely erotic object:"



Yes, lets totally concentrate on the "strong relationship" between, ahum, Beauty and pixels, because if there is anything that is important in an mmorpg world, then its that!



and lets not leave out the so called conclussion.



"So Femmes Fatales as an expression of the sublime feminine as "will to power", shall continue to mesmerize, seduce, tease and provoke. And more than anything else we shall continue to use our power to be wicked, desirable and feminine. MMOs provide us a perfect context to deploy and sustain our ambitions.".



Forgive me for my language, but you DO realize it is a GAME right? Seduce? Tease? Tell you what, get away from your computer and go do that in real life. Its people like you that makes me tell parents in real life to wait untill their children are at a higher age before starting the mmorpg genre. Don't you have anything better to do then to virtually "seduce" people? If your "ambition" is to virtually whore yourself out, then I think you should get your priorities straigth.

Cymdai

Gameloading, I thoroughly agree.



But look on the brightside, for every guild like this, where women seek to exploit guys in video games, there's at least 3 other guys already acting like women.



I can't think of a guild I've been in where at least 1 male player didn't pretend he was a female, solely to get items.



Congrats, femmes fatales, but you guys are a few years behind the rest of the MMO world.

MW2K

If I was twenty years younger, I could empathise with what's being said in this thread - sentiments and the like. But I can't. I've out-grown such antics.

Time for some of you to out-grow them too.

Hadesprime

females and gaming



a totally over rated issue



Women gamers are no different than men and should not be treated as such. The thing is so many guys are hardup for action in real life they think seeing a female gamer is ooh ahhh and a chance for cyber



Who cares its all gamers and this like many other issues is an over bloated floating pig.

Unknown

Originally posted by Gameloading

I found this guild to be so extremely rediculous, that I'm pretty sure a part of me just died laughing out loud. Not because of the rediculous rule to exclude male avatars, but because you guys focus on things that should not be the main focus of MMORPG gaming.



"First and foremost we wanted to convey a strong relationship between beauty and the virtual body in on-line gaming, We were not interested in ugliness. The avatars we designed and developed in Femmes Fatales mirrored this interest. In fact it is probably true to say that the most ardent feminist is very likely to be an ugly woman. These women resent beautiful women. So how does the beauty of a body detach that body from the contentment of our practical, expressive, and sexual relations and make of that body an object of excessive passions? How does this manifest itself in the world of MMOs? Why and how does beauty organize the body, linking up forms, colors, and movements into a snare for our lusts? Bataille focuses exclusively on the feminine body, inasmuch as it is the supremely erotic object:"



Yes, lets totally concentrate on the "strong relationship" between, ahum, Beauty and pixels, because if there is anything that is important in an mmorpg world, then its that!



and lets not leave out the so called conclussion.



"So Femmes Fatales as an expression of the sublime feminine as "will to power", shall continue to mesmerize, seduce, tease and provoke. And more than anything else we shall continue to use our power to be wicked, desirable and feminine. MMOs provide us a perfect context to deploy and sustain our ambitions.".



Forgive me for my language, but you DO realize it is a GAME right? Seduce? Tease? Tell you what, get away from your computer and go do that in real life. Its people like you that makes me tell parents in real life to wait untill their children are at a higher age before starting the mmorpg genre. Don't you have anything better to do then to virtually "seduce" people? If your "ambition" is to virtually whore yourself out, then I think you should get your priorities straigth.





Dont bother with this guy. It's quite obvious that he does not know what hes talking about, and is completely out of context. Doubt he'll ever get it.

Apocalyptica

Originally posted by Hadesprime

females and gaming



a totally over rated issue



Women gamers are no different than men and should not be treated as such. The thing is so many guys are hardup for action in real life they think seeing a female gamer is ooh ahhh and a chance for cyber



Who cares its all gamers and this like many other issues is an over bloated floating pig.

Indeed, I totaly agree with you there. It totaly does not matter I find if you are a boy or girl gamer. I am female and realy do not give a toss if peeps I am playing with are male or female so long they are friendly and respectufull and one can have loads of fun doing pvm or what not together.

Some women make me think of George Orwells Animal Farm...just substitute the pigs for women. You know, all animals are equal, but ....

Gameloading

Originally posted by buddhabeads

Originally posted by Gameloading

I found this guild to be so extremely rediculous, that I'm pretty sure a part of me just died laughing out loud. Not because of the rediculous rule to exclude male avatars, but because you guys focus on things that should not be the main focus of MMORPG gaming.



"First and foremost we wanted to convey a strong relationship between beauty and the virtual body in on-line gaming, We were not interested in ugliness. The avatars we designed and developed in Femmes Fatales mirrored this interest. In fact it is probably true to say that the most ardent feminist is very likely to be an ugly woman. These women resent beautiful women. So how does the beauty of a body detach that body from the contentment of our practical, expressive, and sexual relations and make of that body an object of excessive passions? How does this manifest itself in the world of MMOs? Why and how does beauty organize the body, linking up forms, colors, and movements into a snare for our lusts? Bataille focuses exclusively on the feminine body, inasmuch as it is the supremely erotic object:"



Yes, lets totally concentrate on the "strong relationship" between, ahum, Beauty and pixels, because if there is anything that is important in an mmorpg world, then its that!



and lets not leave out the so called conclussion.



"So Femmes Fatales as an expression of the sublime feminine as "will to power", shall continue to mesmerize, seduce, tease and provoke. And more than anything else we shall continue to use our power to be wicked, desirable and feminine. MMOs provide us a perfect context to deploy and sustain our ambitions.".



Forgive me for my language, but you DO realize it is a GAME right? Seduce? Tease? Tell you what, get away from your computer and go do that in real life. Its people like you that makes me tell parents in real life to wait untill their children are at a higher age before starting the mmorpg genre. Don't you have anything better to do then to virtually "seduce" people? If your "ambition" is to virtually whore yourself out, then I think you should get your priorities straigth.





Dont bother with this guy. It's quite obvious that he does not know what hes talking about, and is completely out of context. Doubt he'll ever get it.

Ofcourse I don't get it. I don't understand why people feel the need to "seduce" and "tease" people in a friggin GAME.

cyanhide

ey keridwan ,i played DAOC bout 2 years ago ,and i was in ur guild ,it was vrry small then ,i was the only male lol ^^

i'l be playing WAR end vangaurd perhaps ,maybe i'l join u again if i may ^^ had a realy good time with u girls ,u had a pretty good guild ,but i doubd they same people i played with in daoc are still in the guild



i was kirami a little necromancer ^^

Keridwan

Originally posted by Gameloading

I found this guild to be so extremely rediculous, that I'm pretty sure a part of me just died laughing out loud. Not because of the rediculous rule to exclude male avatars, but because you guys focus on things that should not be the main focus of MMORPG gaming.



oh dear I am sorry to have stoked up such controversy  especially when the main focus should be just gaming.



poor Gameloading ... he's gone ballistic ... calm down dear ... if you're good, you can pop around later and I'll make you a nice cup of tea, offer you some lovely homemade cakes, with lashings of fresh cream ... maybe even find your gaming slippers for you eh?



Incidentally, nothing at all Freudian implied in my reply.  Pardon me but I simply can't resist ..... was that "rediculous" or ... red something else? Which "part of you died"? Do you need a nurse dear? Did you ever imagine that some things are said slightly tongue-in-cheek? I believe its called "irony".



never  mind I know already this is falling on deaf ears .... oh well ... trallalalalalalaa

Gameloading

Originally posted by Keridwan







Originally posted by Gameloading

I found this guild to be so extremely rediculous, that I'm pretty sure a part of me just died laughing out loud. Not because of the rediculous rule to exclude male avatars, but because you guys focus on things that should not be the main focus of MMORPG gaming.



oh dear I am sorry to have stoked up such controversy  especially when the main focus should be just gaming.



poor Gameloading ... he's gone ballistic ... calm down dear ... if you're good, you can pop around later and I'll make you a nice cup of tea, offer you some lovely homemade cakes, with lashings of fresh cream ... maybe even find your gaming slippers for you eh?



Incidentally, nothing at all Freudian implied in my reply.  Pardon me but I simply can't resist ..... was that "rediculous" or ... red something else? Which "part of you died"? Do you need a nurse dear? Did you ever imagine that some things are said slightly tongue-in-cheek?



never  mind I know already this is falling on deaf ears .... oh well ... trallalalalalalaa

Nice troll reply, You didn't even comment on any of the arguements, instead, you added a load of sarcasm to try to make my post look rediculous. pretty sad. but oh well, Kind of what I expected of someone who seems to hold virtual fashion shows.

shae

I think anyone that knows me on this site knows that I'm just about the biggest advocate for equality in gaming.

I've fought for it, I've screamed for it, I've gotten in more then a few arguments here on the boards for it and as a female gamer since as young as I can remember, I've truly wanted for it.

IMVHO, groups like this do nothing but reinfroce a stagnent and old need to seperate the sexes in some shape, way or form and use that seperation to an advantage on either end of the spectrum.

I guess my main purpose to this reply is so people know that a large percentage of female gamers have no need, want or desire for such exclusive groups and genuinely dissagree with their fundamental porpose. Many of us just want to be gamers, to play and have fun with everyone else, to attend a LAN or a TS session without being thought of as different, no more and no less.

Keridwan

Originally posted by Gameloading

Nice troll reply, You didn't even comment on any of the arguements. pretty sad. but oh well, Kind of what I expected of someone who seems to hold virtual fashion shows.

Mmmmm a virtual fashion show, what a delicious idea ... actually it's probably been done in Guild Wars, but thanks for the suggestion. Shall I send you a VIP ticket? As for "arguements" what arguments, I didn't notice any? <sweet smile> .... Have a lovely day, and don't forget to put your gaming slippers away nice and tidy for the next round of hard-core just gaming ..... by the way great title for a reality tv show.

Cymdai

Originally posted by shae


I think anyone that knows me on this site knows that I'm just about the biggest advocate for equality in gaming.
I've fought for it, I've screamed for it, I've gotten in more then a few arguments here on the boards for it and as a female gamer since as young as I can remember, I've truly wanted for it.
IMVHO, groups like this do nothing but reinfroce a stagnent and old need to seperate the sexes in some shape, way or form and use that seperation to an advantage on either end of the spectrum.
I guess my main purpose to this reply is so people know that a large percentage of female gamers have no need, want or desire for such exclusive groups and genuinely dissagree with their fundamental porpose. Many of us just want to be gamers, to play and have fun with everyone else, to attend a LAN or a TS session without being thought of as different, no more and no less.

I agree shae.



As I said in my earlier posts, boundaries regarding gender, race, religion, financial status, etc etc should be kept OUT of the gaming world, not brought into it.



It just seems utterly pointless to divide the gaming community on something so trivial.

Gameloading

Originally posted by Keridwan

Originally posted by Gameloading

Nice troll reply, You didn't even comment on any of the arguements. pretty sad. but oh well, Kind of what I expected of someone who seems to hold virtual fashion shows.

Mmmmm a virtual fashion show, what a delicious idea ... actually it's probably been done in Guild Wars, but thanks for the suggestion. Shall I send you a VIP ticket? As for "arguements" what arguments, I didn't notice any? <sweet smile> .... Have a lovely day, and don't forget to put your gaming slippers away nice and tidy for the next round of hard-core just gaming ..... by the way great title for a reality tv show. Yes, because playing a game like its meant to be played is silly right? Glad I'll most likely never see your group of females who want to seduce people in games in my games. Games are games, not real life.  Imo, it would be much better if you kept real life issue's out of games.

Darkchronic

Originally posted by shae




I guess my main purpose to this reply

'Purpose' sounds a lot like 'porpoise'.



Creatures of the sea aside, I agree with what Shae said, just without the being female.

War_Dancer

Originally posted by shae


I think anyone that knows me on this site knows that I'm just about the biggest advocate for equality in gaming.
I've fought for it, I've screamed for it, I've gotten in more then a few arguments here on the boards for it and as a female gamer since as young as I can remember, I've truly wanted for it.
IMVHO, groups like this do nothing but reinfroce a stagnent and old need to seperate the sexes in some shape, way or form and use that seperation to an advantage on either end of the spectrum.
I guess my main purpose to this reply is so people know that a large percentage of female gamers have no need, want or desire for such exclusive groups and genuinely dissagree with their fundamental porpose. Many of us just want to be gamers, to play and have fun with everyone else, to attend a LAN or a TS session without being thought of as different, no more and no less.

I don't see an exlusively woman guild as seperating the sexs inheinrently but along the same sort of lines as a GLBT guild. Being formed to act more as a place in the game where you know you could getaway from some of the attitudes that can be directed at you. That doesn't inherintly in itself say you want to be segregated from the rest of the community completely.

Edit: a guild formed with the purpose of using 'seduction' to gain an advantage is something completely different