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Women Gamers and The Power of the Feminine
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You only see a facet of the medal. Yes, it is dishonest. But who is the worst, the geek is buying "dream", so the geek will live on.
These "girls" are harvesting all type of stuff, and it affect them a LOT. Go read Shae response; now I am telling you...this is moderate and nice, compare to some stuff they see...and it prolly have a good chance of affecting the other. Now, on top of that, it screw them, because they KNOW it is wrong, and KNOWING you are wrong and a freak is nasty, especially if they are complexed in RL, which I am quite sure they are, no matter if they are 100, 150 or 300 lbs.
Beshaba is at work in this thread, I should just leave! ASAP!
ACK raiding!!!! Can't exit! Damn devs!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
First time posting on this website.. anyway, I read the first few pages and I skimed the blog... found a few things I wanted to say.
I have many friends that are girl who play on line games and they couldn't care less if people on line found out they were females or not, they just wanna play a fun game, not fight for.... whatever you want to fight for.
I agreed with some of the stuff the blog had, but after a few paragraphs... it got a little rediculous...
"This ethereal vision of the consummately feminine mesmerizes us because it breaks entirely free from the practical, utilitarian and purposive world. And this draws us convulsively. It fevers us with a craving to break out ourselves, to break out of ourselves, to break free from the fetters of our professional and practical shape, and lose ourselves in torrential rivers pouring in the night skies.
So Femmes Fatales as an expression of the sublime feminine as "will to power", shall continue to mesmerize, seduce, tease and provoke. And more than anything else we shall continue to use our power to be wicked, desirable and feminine. MMOs provide us a perfect context to deploy and sustain our ambitions."
Are you kidding me?
Screw this I was quoting and flaming here and there but it got too long and plenty of people have already done it.. but long story short, the blog sounded like it belonged to a depressed teenager posting a crappy poem on deadjournal/myspace.
I can see it - I asked *you* what *you* think the difference is. Now, answer. Don't troll, don't post spin, don't evade - just answer it. What is this difference, according to you?
As I said, I'm not even going to bother. I'm not going to write an entire article of something that is SO incredibly obvious. Its an incredible waste of time. It like explaining why 1 + 1 is 2.
Now you know how I feel interacting with a kid like you. That's right, you are a kid, with a kid's experiences and a kid's point-of-view. Time will cure most of that, and I'm afraid you'll have to take my word on that one. Argue it as much as you want; it's an inescapable fact.
I'm not patronising you or belittling you, Gameloading, I'm being honest - but I'm certain you won't see it that way. You are a bright guy, but your reach does exceed your grasp on occcasion.
But, after being online for 16-18 years like I have, I no longer perceive any real difference between computer-based interaction and "real-life" interaction. To me, there is no difference apart from the medium involved and a spurious feeling of anonymity.
"Hitting" on someone in-game to me is no different to what goes on at a nightclub or some other social venue, physical or virtual - I met my current wife online on ICQ over 9 years ago and I'll be married to her 9 years this July. I moved from one continent to another to be with her.
So, to me, there is no real difference, and I've had far, far too many experiences to be told blithely that there is.
Yes, hitting on people for the sheer sake that the target "may" be of the opposite sex is ridiculous, but the fact that you're playing a MMO should be no barrier to love or a good time if it leads in that direction. Some people communicate better via a keyboard than they do tete-a-tete, for a variety of reasons.
For the benefit of this topic:
We are talking about seduction here. There is a diffrence with starting a relation through online and the practise of these bunch of women. a WORLD OF DIFFRENCE. Comparing it with the relation of your wife is ignorant, and is something that is entirely diffrent then the practise of this "guild". I have absolutely nothing against online relations, Nothing at all.I'm too old to even consider the reality of girl gamers to be a legitimate issue. They exist and oh well. Good on them. It's a total non-issue. Shame some immature people see fit to still make it one.
But this:
"So Femmes Fatales as an expression of the sublime feminine as "will to power", shall continue to mesmerize, seduce, tease and provoke. And more than anything else we shall continue to use our power to be wicked, desirable and feminine. MMOs provide us a perfect context to deploy and sustain our ambitions. "
Should stay out of games. In the future, when I let my kid play an MMORPG, I don't want him/her to be exposed to crap like this in a GAME. And not just for my kids. When I play an MMORPG, I also want to play the game without seeing a bunch of women "seducing" people to get whatever it is they want.
Sorry for the double posting.. but I have the urge to defend gameloading for not explaining the obvious.
Ulujain, considering you are posting on this fourm I'm sure you know what the internet is.
Now the difference between 'real life' and 'on-line life' is that on-line life is what you do ... what is called "On-Line", on the computer.
Real Life is "OFF LINE" a.k.a actually going out of the house, meeting people in in reality (as opposed to typing, vid, cam, ect)
And now I must post an incomplete post since I promised I will go to in and out with my friends. (This is real life, not on line life)
And oh yeah, you can't get aids if you have sex on line (cyber). and you can hug people in real life... and .............................................
Ah yes, badly laid sarcasm followed by less than affable wit, the last vestibules of someone attempting to scratch out a self-ceremonious point.
You, are a fraud. More to the point, you are a fake and a fraud.
You are a bump on the road to be passed by every women of the future who wishes to have self dignity and self worth. You are an archaic melange of uselessness that we sit back and laugh at and tell stories about.
For real women, confident women, self assured women, those of us that exude and implore feminism from the inside and outwards, for women who believe we are people and are not solely defined by our gender, you are nothing, no one. You are weak, naive and most of all, lost.
I would pitty you if it was not so terribly wasted.
what are you? a machine?...
"for women who believe we are people".... and people can't say sorry ?
...but enough about that. that is off topic.
soylent green is people...
I'm not quite sure, are you attacking my point of view or my wording? Are you trying to be funny, witty, intellectual? Feel free to expand if you like, I've no compunction in defending a properly worded and thought out reply.
But I stand by what I wrote and note, no genuine rebuke or rebutal?
It's so easy to masks ones intent or belief in sarcasm, hate, arrogance and self-importance isn't it? In the end, it's nothing more then weakness and self loathing. As I said earlier, I would feel pitty for this "girl" if it wouldn't be such a waste.
I am this therefore I am better? Truth is, take away their own self importance and they are no better then the rest of us, even less so.
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As I said, I'm not even going to bother. I'm not going to write an entire article of something that is SO incredibly obvious. Its an incredible waste of time. It like explaining why 1 + 1 is 2.
Now you know how I feel interacting with a kid like you. That's right, you are a kid, with a kid's experiences and a kid's point-of-view. Time will cure most of that, and I'm afraid you'll have to take my word on that one. Argue it as much as you want; it's an inescapable fact.
I'm not patronising you or belittling you, Gameloading, I'm being honest - but I'm certain you won't see it that way. You are a bright guy, but your reach does exceed your grasp on occcasion.
But, after being online for 16-18 years like I have, I no longer perceive any real difference between computer-based interaction and "real-life" interaction. To me, there is no difference apart from the medium involved and a spurious feeling of anonymity.
"Hitting" on someone in-game to me is no different to what goes on at a nightclub or some other social venue, physical or virtual - I met my current wife online on ICQ over 9 years ago and I'll be married to her 9 years this July. I moved from one continent to another to be with her.
So, to me, there is no real difference, and I've had far, far too many experiences to be told blithely that there is.
Yes, hitting on people for the sheer sake that the target "may" be of the opposite sex is ridiculous, but the fact that you're playing a MMO should be no barrier to love or a good time if it leads in that direction. Some people communicate better via a keyboard than they do tete-a-tete, for a variety of reasons.
For the benefit of this topic:
I'm too old to even consider the reality of girl gamers to be a legitimate issue. They exist and oh well. Good on them. It's a total non-issue. Shame some immature people see fit to still make it one.
You said there is no difference apart from, "The medium involved and a spurious feeling of anonymity." and yet that is an incredibly huge difference. To simply ignore the medium or the feeling of anonymity completely negates the power that the internet has.
You met your wife online. Great. My uncle met his wife online. However sometime you had to move from the virtual world to the real physical world in order to continue that relationship. So again there is a difference between the two mediums.
And your right, girl gamers are a non-issue, unless they are your target market of course hehe.
Venge Sunsoar
Good post!
Hey wait, explaining why 1+2=2 is not trivial at all...
Especially if you want to make a 100% correct definition.
PS: thats not a flame in that case, I reserve that for you in the EvE Online threads.
Thats one of the moments I wish I would have studied psychology instead of computer science.
Well... after reading through all these posts it seems most people dont have a clue about what they are talking about.
I guess source of the problem could to be pointed name Femme Fatale. i's such a loaded term and would immediately raise presumptiosn and prejudices which unfortunately have been exposed in this thread. I guess a fair debate on the issue is hardly possible.
That said, most people seemed to have missed the OP's intentions. So i'm going to help out by clearing some confusions
"To repeat Femmes Fatales believed in the power of the feminine and this is not the same as saying the power of a woman, or the power of women as a collective. We also believe that some men can appreciate and endorse this distinctive kind of power."
"Femmes Fatales was keen to endorse certain key values - community solidarity, style, beauty, glamour, positive power, co operation and most of all the aesthetics of the feminine as a feature of on-line gaming. We were also interested in the differences between the feminine and the masculine and how this gets played out in MMOs and on-line communities. "
"First and foremost we wanted to convey a strong relationship between beauty and the virtual body in on-line gaming,"
"This ethereal vision of the consummately feminine mesmerizes us because it breaks entirely free from the practical, utilitarian and purposive world. And this draws us convulsively. It fevers us with a craving to break out ourselves, to break out of ourselves, to break free from the fetters of our professional and practical shape, and lose ourselves in torrential rivers pouring in the night skies"
If people bothered to read carefully, its quite evident that the OP is not about dividing females and males or being seperatist, elitist, feminist. To argue that she is an sepratisti, elitist or a feminist is completely missing the mark.
Correct me if im wrong, but the whole ideal of the Guild is to advocate the 'feminine' beauty, not female domination. It just happens that MMOs provide a platform to promote these ideals.
Generally we agree with that part of the statement. Only a few have said this is about segregation.
However you somehow missed another part of that statement:
So Femmes Fatales as an expression of the sublime feminine as "will to power", shall continue to mesmerize, seduce, tease and provoke. And more than anything else we shall continue to use our power to be wicked, desirable and feminine. MMOs provide us a perfect context to deploy and sustain our ambitions."
What most people have said is that they are using feminity to seduce, mezmerize, tease and provoke. Many feel this is not only completely degrading to women everywhere, but only serves to reinforce stereotypes and as such is wrong. So not only does this reinforce stereotypes but the Femme Fatale are trying to use sterotypes to make themselves powerful and elite, which when you consider what the stereotype is is pretty ironic and only hurts their cause.
Venge Sunsoar
Generally we agree with that part of the statement. Only a few have said this is about segregation.
However you somehow missed another part of that statement:
So Femmes Fatales as an expression of the sublime feminine as "will to power", shall continue to mesmerize, seduce, tease and provoke. And more than anything else we shall continue to use our power to be wicked, desirable and feminine. MMOs provide us a perfect context to deploy and sustain our ambitions."
What most people have said is that they are using feminity to seduce, mezmerize, tease and provoke. Many feel this is not only completely degrading to women everywhere, but only serves to reinforce stereotypes and as such is wrong. So not only does this reinforce stereotypes but the Femme Fatale are trying to use sterotypes to make themselves powerful and elite, which when you consider what the stereotype is is pretty ironic and only hurts their cause.
Venge Sunsoar
Hmmz.. i think that last section has a tinge of playfulness to it... i don't think its suppose to be read literally, maybe it's just me.
It is with some trepidation and slight unease that I respond to your poignant remarks. Indeed it makes me feel slightly faint and queasy at the thought you reading my words. I sense you will flatten and overcome me with your sharp perceptions and telling points. Indeed, I feel that if I make the slightest mistake you will wish to correct me. As you rightly point out people's emotions are fragile and delicate. Please be gentle with me like a true Alpha male. Alternatively I know must be resolute and stand my corner. Otherwise I would be letting down other "female gamers". Indeed, I must be a brave woman and exercise my democratic rights of free speech. After all its a "free world" of equality and justice.
I'm flattered you chose to label me an the Alpha male. It's refreshing to know that you view all the posters as a pack of wolves, and me as their leader. A rather amusing notion indeed. However, here at MMORPG.com, I believe our users are capable of thinking and speaking for themselves, and don't need a delegated representative to do so for them.
If I may be so bold I shall try to answer the points you have quite appropriately raised. I have to admit that we do have a tendency to "run around in frilly costumes" and we do have an inclination to tease. The frilly bit can be something of a disadvantage because sometimes the more austere, shaped and sculptured look has distinct benefits. For myself I prefer to "run around" in tight fitting costumes because they permit me to unleash my weapon in an instant (no pun intended).
You are right to say we would cast out the ugly. We simply don't care for them. God forbid glamour and beauty must reign supreme. I say let us proclaim the Burlesque ! Pardon me Captain Cymdai I was temporarily distracted. Anyways, back to the point Orcs are horrid, dwarves give us a distinct sense of eunuchism (not that I have ever examined them so closely), necros are unganely and tend to have poor gaits, and the Mids in DAoC could not be toilet trained. The Hibs were a little better but tended to urinate in the woods. Of course, us girls didn't like this because it killed the pretty flowers and foliage. So we have a clear policy "No Ugliness Allowed". In "real life" (whatever that means) we try to recruit beautiful people. It's nicer having a sandwich with a pretty person than an ugly person, and in any case I have noticed that ugly people tend to scoff their food. A most unseemly habit in my opinion. So we seek intellect, refinement and large doses of culture in Femmes Fatales You might fairly (I know this is an important concept for you Captain) describe us as "cultural elitists". When people apply to join they are subject to all kinds of tests. And you can assume Captain Cymdai that we don't suffer fools gladly.
First the Alpha male, now the Captain! I've gotten more promotions in this thread than I've gotten at MMORPG.com!
Captain I am also afraid to say that "we do feed off the weak", but mostly we find that they have very little to offer. So in fact there is little feeding available to us. Much more the thrill in toppling an Alpha Male, like yourself, it gives one much more of a tingle of excitement. If we can catch you out alone in rvr frontiers we tend to mess around a bit before the final kill. Sometimes we simply refuse to kill you. That is bad for an Alpha male cos they like an honourable death.
You greatly misjudge my playing style to presume I would be mocked and humiliated. If I am bested by another in a duel, than I have been defeated. However, if you lack the ability to conquer my player by yourself, and instead require a pack, than there is no shame. You effectively nullify your own crusade, as both my abilities and your reactions prove that I am superior to any one member of the "Femmes Fatales". There is quite a bit of honor associated with realizing that you were better than any one player from a guild, and that they knew it as well.
And now my Captain I must turn to the devastating critique you subjected me to about things being "plainly wrong". Well, it is important to note that we do not adopt a universalistic view of morality. In fact all the women in Femmes Fatales are moral relativists. We dont have much time for Kant and his categorical imperative or even for the great J.S. Mill with his soppy utilitarianism. Bah the "greatest good for the greatest number" what nonsense. No Captain, we make moral judgements according to the feminine principle. As you know from your own experience this can be slightly chaotic at times. I won't mention the exact times because some of our younger readers will be perplexed. But the point is we don't accept a simple black and white definition of what is wrong or right. We think that context counts. Sometimes this is right and sometimes that very same thing is plain wrong. We also feel that we are "just" rather than "unjust" in our relations to people. For example, we enjoy men going shopping for us, or crafting us nice shiny armour, especially if it looks pretty. I guess the closest definition one could offer of our morality is that we attempt to go beyond conventional notions of good and evil and imagine a world outside of the Judaeo Christian frame. Perhaps we are Pagans?
Religion has no effect on my morals.
Well ... pardon my diatribe but I did wish to address all your points. Or perhaps I was bored. And honestly Captain I am not trying to seduce you ....
I'd certainly say this is an amusing game, but it seems to me that you are condescending your core principles and values on repeat occasions.
Realize it's not my goal to correct spelling errors either, but if you are going to mock another user for their mistakes, I would trust you would take the time to construct nearly flawless posts.
I'll await a reply, this is quite interesting.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
It's certainly a change of pace from "Eve is overrated" or "Wow sucks".
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Shae thus far I have desisted from responding to you. Partly because in many ways it plays into the hands of the masculine, e.g. the voyeuristic tendencies that enjoy watching two women have a cat fight; and partly because you already confirm the loaded stereotypes of woman. Historically, that is, the image of the hysterical woman who rants and excessively preaches drivel to the masses. I am suprised that you wish to take this "oh so very seriously", especially given the moto you proudly wear on your sleeve, expresses quite the opposite. Don't you see any irony or playfullness at all in anything I have said? You know Shae there is something quite beautiful about a creative process that leans towards the absurd or the fabulous imagination. I am genuinely very sorry that you cannot appreciate this, and realise your life must be less than full as a consequence.
Anyways, Shae, I shall not get into a cat fight with you. Nevertheless you do strike me as a thoroughly bitter and resentful woman, who is very happy to throw abusive remarks and degrading terms around like confetti. You seem content to refer to people in a derogatory manner without the slightest inclination of a bad conscience. Shae you strike me as being a thoroughly "spiteful girl" and of course this has nothing to do with gender. I already know what your response to this little posting will be. It will comprise either of another rant or another set of ill-conceived, poorly expressed and misguided ideas. Or else you will be terribly selective about what I write and try to pick the bones out of it in a highly prejudicial way. I know you pride yourself on your supposedly "intellectual qualities" and your robust style. But quite frankly, I don't see it.
Now then Shae, to turn to your remarks about feminism. And, incidentally, I believe these tell me quite a lot about you. First how can someone possibly "exude and implore feminism, from the inside and outwards"? This is pure nonsense. And in any case Shae, contemporary theory has moved well beyond these old Cartesian binary oppositions of "inside and outside", "real and virtual", "good and bad". May I suggest you read the writings of either Merleau-Ponty or Martin Heidegger to get a grip on the current scene in philosophical thinking. If you wish to really step out in your heels, read Alain Badiou and take notice of his subtractive ontology on truth, e.g. truth is a fragile, singular, instense moment that can never be universalised.
I repeat Femmes Fatales is not a feminist syndicate and many of our members are anti-feminist. Shae when I read your words you remind me very much of what Jacques Derrida had to say about feminists.
"And in truth, they too are men, those women feminists so derided by Nietzsche. Feminism is nothing but the operation of a woman who aspires to be like a man. And in order to resemble the masculine dogmatic philosopher this woman lays claim to truth, objectivity and science in all their castrated delusions of virility. Feminism seeks to castrate. It wants a castrated woman. Gone the style."
If I may be so bold Shae, if ever you are in London town give me a call. We can both have a full Brazillian body wax before we go out. The you can put on a frilly, pretty pink dress or even the classic little black tube number, with some killer high heels, loads of make-up, and voila we hit the town ! I think you would look quite divine and maybe even a little sexy? But Shae most of all please stop trying to emulate the masculine, enjoy your femininity and it's vital sources. You will feel much happier that way ... take care.
kisses .....
What am I getting at? Simply that nobody is any better or any worse than another. We simply are. You're you, I'm me, and those lot of there; they're them. The over-use of of florid prose, fancy words, and labels in this thread is so completely unimportant. We use so many categories and labels to try and describe people, to make it easier for us to understand who they are, and in this context, portray them in a light so as to belittle them with our own opinions. When in truth, all we need to do in order to comprehend and understand people is to simply realise that we are who we are. No more, no less.
Buddhism states that, "If you understand nothing, things remain the same. If you understand everything, things remain the same."
Specifically to the OP, why is any of this important? Why do you and your group feel the need to go about your ambitions in such a way as you have outlined here? Yes, you want to - to a certain degree - promote your feminine-syled (and somewhat stereotypical) methods in order to obtain some thing or another. But why?
---
Captain !!! surely you are not serious? I am afraid if you are, then Femmes Fatales have already relegated you to Beta Male status and a mere "petty officer". I am shocked by your statement. Did you not read "Genealogy of Morals" by the great philosopher Frederich Nietzsche? Here, through a polemical historical analysis, he cuts incisively into the "slave morality" of the Christians and contrasts this with the moral mastery of the Greeks. But most importantly from your point of view he shows how the "Judaic-Christian" religious world view comes to dominate our moral thinking. He shows how it moves deep into the core of our everyday psychologies. From Nietzsche's point of view to fully understand the concepts of Good and Evil vs Good and Bad one must first understand how moral systems developed as an effect of power and how religious culture plays decisive role in this development. Historically our every day morals are thoroughly infused by these early religious systems. I believe feminists are also representative of this "slave morality", in attempting to castrate the man, they undermine the noble, honourable warrior qualities of the masculine, whilst rejecting the singularly distinctive qualities of the feminine. Controversial though he may be Julius Evola has a great deal to say about this phenomenon.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-morality/
Captain I would love to discuss beauty with you. But there is beauty and there is beauty. The two are not mutually exclusive, but rather two poles of a continuum. At one end there is the beauty associated with a sense of lightness and balanced order, a bit like Femmes Fatales. This kind of beauty has a decorative quality to it. At the other end of the continuum is the much darker side of beauty that we associate with profundity and truth. This is very much like Femmes Fatales and must be understood in terms of the sublime. So very much in the spirit of Femmes Fatales beauty can be both calming and disruptive. Beauty is much more than personal perception. If it were only a personal perception we would not be able to agree on what is beautiful and what is not. For example, we agree that it is appropriate to describe a woman as beautiful, but inappropriate to describe a man as beautiful. We prefer instead to refer to him as handsome. Similarly we can agree that some poems are more beautiful than others. Therefore our conception of beauty is based on shared understandings as well as a tension between consensus/conflict, not on individual differences.
But Captain most of all I am surprised you did not wish to entertain my judgements about those naughty little Hibs in DAoC who run around in the woods, cocking (sic) their legs up and pissing on the pretty foliage. In fact, Captain you talk about us girls running around in frilly frocks, when in fact, we spent most of our DAoC days running around cleaning up after the Hibbies. We orchestrated a daily routine of cleaning up the woods with our broom sticks. No wonder our guild rvr status was low eh !! I won't talk about the Mids as we have already agreed they cannot be toilet trained. They are a dispicable ugly species that are beyond any redemption.
Anyways Captain, I have spent too much time here today, now I simply must get the housework done !
Ahh Keridwan,
The single best part of dealing with extremist women like you is the rest of us don't even need defend our positions or rebuke a rebutal, you do it all for us and I thank you for that, really.
You base your life around elitism, self-importance, ignorance, arrogance and an unparralleld blindness to those around you. You have the gull to question my femininity when you've no idea who I am as a person, nor made any effort to know me. You question my happiness and yet you seem so completely spitefull of everyone around you.
For the record though, I take nothing about you seriously. Taking you seriously is what gives you, and others like you, what slight amount of power you scratch and thieve for. Quite the opposite actually, notice the rest of us have managed to keep you making a fool of yourself? Notice how we've done nothing but encourage you to show your true colors. No my dear, I give you no such respect or approval, your a fling here, nothing more.
I know people of substance must terrify you, hence why you base your life on lies and physicalitys, so I wont delve too deeply into your obvious social retardation. I will say this however, and only because I think it's semi-important for others to notice and fully appreciate just how skewed your perception of others and yourself are.
You've mentioned several times that your so called "guild/clan/group" is none Feminist and that if anything you are the Anti-Feminist. You say this and yet anyone who dissagrees with you, most of the time you will associate with Feminist ideals, thus making them wrong and on the wrong side, putting yourself on higher, self-important ground. You begin atacking, using sarcasm and bait to harm others in writen and vocal form.
All this is by your own admition, is masculin behavior and thus you have become what you accuse everyone else of being. You have stepped away from the feminin, you are now ugly and not worthy of your own rule set.
It's the circle of life Simba and it's a bitch.
In other words, your a fraud, as I've said before. Furthermore, you dont' see it, which makes you histerical and to go one step further in repeat myself, nothing but a passing fancy.
Oh and by the way dear, if your ever in Ottawa by all means give me a ring, I'd be more then happy to show you around. Don't worry about the waxing, don't worry about wearing anything frilly or pink for that matter, we do not base our sexuality or our power of the feminin from inanimate objects. Maybe it would do you some good.
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By the way Shae, that was not a half bad response. Clever girl. Well done !! I am really proud and pleased with you. Impressed as I am I'll send you my London number by pm, but later because atm I am in Paris. I still think you would look gorgeous in Pink.
You guys are a feminine role-playing guild.
Perhaps next time we should speak less in riddles, lest you may confuse those lacking perception.
Quite the amusing way to recruit though, haha
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...