Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Graphics/Performance vs Vanguard
gannonreid
Member Posts: 172
Well, after playing both LOTRO and Vaguard I have decided that despite the added bells and whistles of Vanguard, LOTRO has far superior graphics and performance, creating a much much MUCH more enjoyable experience.
Vanguard, which has been out for about a month and a Half suffers dramatically from performance issues (like horrid framerates) even on the top-tier systems. In most games it's alright to try to decrease settings to for better performance, except in Vanguards case- this results in a game that looks just plain horrible.
While I do admit that in some places the graphics of Vanguard are incfredible, but overall, pretty terrible when accounting for the extremely high system reqs along with such horrible performance. On top of that, the art direction is uninspired, and all in all is only alright.
LOTRO takes a different approach to graphics, reminding me much of WoW. Though the game doesn't try to be the best (like Vanguard, which didn't work out considering what I said above) what it does present is excellent. The poly count is lower, but overall, the competent (basically excelling) performance of the engine more than makes up for this. It even makes the increased technology of Vanguard seem utterly pointless. Like WoW, this game does so much more with so much less than a game like Vanguard.
LOTRO looks just plain great and when I can't get more than 10 FPS on my good system even on medium settings in Vanguard, I can crank the settings all the way up and still get excellent performance. I love the reflections in the water, and everything together just makes for a beautiful package. Another great detail is the distant trees, the blur creates a great effect, seriously, this catches my eyes all the time.
It's funny, Vanguard has been out for a month and a half and LOTRO is still a month and a half away from launch and is dramatically more stable and this is the main reason why I love LOTRO more than Vanguard. The steep system requirements with less payoff than LOTRO makes Vanguards graphics and performance rediculous.
So what do you all think?
Comments
After i played much of LOTRO beta , and Vanguard beta
I can safely say that REGARDELESS of performance.
LOTRO has much more detailed, imaginative and simply breathtaking graphic that stomps Vanguard into the abandonware hell.
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
It looks plastique. End of it. Reason is that as soon as the graphics get "too good", your brain starts to compare them to real life - they fail. If the game is instead clearly showing that it is not trying to imitate the real world (see WoW's style), then that process doesn't happen, and the graphics come out a lot superior in your brain.
This is why despite WoW's ultra-minimalistic polygons, most people instantly say (after I show them both games) that WoW has better graphics than Vanguard.
SQUEAK.
--(The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
It is called "Uncanny Valley"
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
WoW for me looks like an experiment gone wrong.Yes i played WoW and in time i got used to the graphics looking like that.
I haven't played Vanguard but here is a comparison between WoW,Vanguard and LOTRO.
lotrovault.ign.com/View.php
As for a game will fail if it try to compare them to reallife is just wrong
.
There is a lot of FPS/RPG games out there that does a good job.
Try to take a look at far cry's next move.
Reallifeshots to the left and ingame graphics to the right.
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp06.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp07.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp04.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp05.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp02.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp03.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp01.jpg
___________________________________________
I enjoy Vanguards graphics much much more than LOTRO, but then that is only a matter of taste. When it comes to performamce LOTRO is a clear winner, no doubt about that. I really like both games though and I will play both, they are very different types of games. Vanguard is much more open ended and you get the feeling of a real living and breathing fantasy world. LOTRO on the other hand is a very spoonfed game but very good at what it does feed you. I think it is great that there are games of both types! Vanguard still has some performance issues but it is actually getting better all the time.
I will continue to preach that Good Graphics does NOT equal High-polycount and realism. Good graphics is believable, consistent, and immersive. Everything (player-characters, NPCs, mobs, trees, buildings, items) all need the same level of detail, otherwise something is going to stand out as being deficient. That's why I thought eq2 graphics sucked btw... you would have these immensely detailed characters and clothing, tons of tweaking down to the height of the cheekbone even, and then you would put them in this world where you could see the polygon joint across the top of a hill, or some huge flat wall with some repeating texture slapped on it.
Performance also has to be part of the equation as well. If you are lagging around (because of graphics) then you not feeling immersed, then the detail is wasted imo. You have to layout the world so you can achieve that right level of performance WITH as big and grand a view as is possible, (lotro and vg both have some grand landscape views.... but one is doing it at 40 fps, the other at 4 ... ?)
Anyway, good graphics produce immersion in games. Bad graphics fail at immersion. The goal is NOT realism. If we were doing a special effects shot for a movie, then yea, the goal is realism. But a virtual world, just needs to be believable and consistent.
Remember people said the same thing about EQ2 when it came out. Now that systems have caught up EQ2's graphics don't lag people anymore and the game runs very smooth for most.
That said: Performance issues *at release* are the kiss of death for MMORPG's. So While I think in a year or 2 systems will be able to run Vanguard smoothly it'll be too late, just like it was for EQ2... oh it'll have it's players, it's a decent enough title... but it'll never release and explode the way WoW did. It's going to be in exactly the same category as EQ2... a nice MMO with around 1-200 thousand players.
I suspect LOTR:O is going to far surpass those numbers. 1) Because it's a beloved IP of so many people out there. 2) Because it's STABLE as hell... 3) Because the graphics look awesome *now* not 2 years from now. Lastly... 4) Because the game is FUN to play...
Do I think LOTR:O will 'kill wow'? no... but everyone is going to have to sit up and take notice of this game.
As of *now* I'd rank the games mentioned in this thread in this order in terms of Graphics:
1) LOTR:O
2) EQ2
3) Vanguard
4) WoW
No offense wow fans.... I just don't like the style used in WoW. And Vanguard will one day surpass EQ2 but right now it suffers too many performance issues to turn all the bells and whistles on.
Frankly that's the order I'd rank them overall (well... not in popularity, obviously) as well.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Even if VG performance is worse than LOTRO I really have to ask where you get 4fps, cause I run the game just fine. Sure there are some stuttering and fps goes down at times, but this is just very very temporary and 95% of the time (which should be 99,9% of the time though) you play just fine, that is my experience at least. My system is as follows:
A64 3500+, 2gb ram (key factor in any MMO I would say), 7800gt and I run XP home edition.
Why I don't really like LOTRO graphics is because it looks too cosy and bright, has a real real short view distance even on max setting before becoming blurred (real immersion breaker), looks too cartoony and the character movement animation is horrible. Now this game is only in beta and while they might not change a lot of things I really hope they open up the viewing distances!
But on the other hand LOTRO never ever even "stutters", performance will not be an issue in this game if beta is anything to judge by!
While both titles have graphical flaws I'm going to go with Vanguard on this one.
It's simply allot tougher to make a realistic looking MMO than a cartoonish styled one. I did notice VG's character models look as though their standing on top of the environment as opposed to being part of it.
Make no mistake though certain parts of LOTR are beautifull however other parts look like a bad oil painting.
I do think LOTR has the best water of any MMO I've played to date not to mention it's just more fun than Vanguard.
ZV
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
WoW for me looks like an experiment gone wrong.Yes i played WoW and in time i got used to the graphics looking like that.
I haven't played Vanguard but here is a comparison between WoW,Vanguard and LOTRO.
lotrovault.ign.com/View.php
As for a game will fail if it try to compare them to reallife is just wrong
.
There is a lot of FPS/RPG games out there that does a good job.
Try to take a look at far cry's next move.
Reallifeshots to the left and ingame graphics to the right.
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp06.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp07.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp04.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp05.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp02.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp03.jpg
www.crysis-online.com/Media/Images/Screenshots/comp01.jpg In that one link , WoW actually looks better then Vangaurd. Think it is the over all lighting of the games .If a game used bland , hard lighting it is considered hardcore, if a game uses soft , natural lighting it is casual. I personally don't see it that way. If Vanguard changed the lighting it would look exactly like LotRO. LotRO just looks natual , and it feel like everything has it's place.
I like pie !
Another thing that hurts vanguard is that Anti Aliasing doesnt work, as they have not implemented it in game yet. Forcing it on in drivers does no good either as i have found.
I think if they had that working it would help the game graphically.
-Allegria
I just did my yearly upgrade on my computer. Upgraded to an AMD 64 4200 X2, 2 GB DDR2 667 Ram, and an eVGA OC 8800 GTS 640MB video card.
First thing I do after installing Windows is fire up EQ2 and set all the graphics to extreme quality. Next I fire up fraps and I get around 40-60 average FPS. Not bad at all. I am happy!
Second thing I do is run Vanguard. I set the game to extreme and watch the slideshow. I set the graphics to balance, and I get 30-40 FPS if I am alone in the wildness. If a another person comes near me, I drop to single digit FPS. Not happy!
So the last thing I do is fire up LOTRO, and set the game to max graphics and Anti Aliasing. I get 70 FPS. Very happy!
I tried really hard to like Vanguard but I just can't do it.
I canceled my sub this week.
It is called "Uncanny Valley"
You made two incredible points, even if I disagree with you about the graphics between the two games.
Thanks for that link. Very interesting.
Yes, quite interesting. A point I read somewhere is that LotRO makes extensive use of textures, and that objects have relatively low polygon counts, as does WoW, although WoW texturing is less elaborate.
VG however, apparently uses high poly count objects, and less elaborate textures. This would certainly seem to account for the need for higher speed graphics cards.
It should be noted that most LotRO players do not have the high resolution files installed; they were not part of the download package. (1/10 th the size of VG's download.) A few players who bought the preorder package locally and have disks have loaded the high res files, although they are not supported by customer service yet. Having the two sets of files is a clever way of making the game play well on older systems and still providing enhanced graphics for those who can use them. However, it does mean that comparisons of picture quality between VG and LotRO are misleading unless both LotRO options are shown.
Even in WoW, with 512 MB, I would get awful lag in the cities, especially at peak hours. After bumping to 1 GIG the lag went away. I was astonished at the time.
I'm considering upgrading to 2 GIG just for LOTRO (which will make it 100% lag free instead of the current 98.2%) but I might not have the funds for that at the moment.
Not only are the landscapes ho-hum, but they are also amateurishly designed from a gaming standpoint.
Not to mention the stiff, unrealistic character animations and the totally lackluster special effects.
I used to think DAoC was the most graphically mediocre game out there, but now I know that Vanguard is laughably sub-par. Which is ironic, considering the computing power it sucks down in order to generate such utter crap.
Simply put there's still a huge gulf of evolution between what consitutes realistic graphics today and where they'll be in 5-10 years. The human mind is disturbed by what looks almost real yet is clearly synthetic.
That's why I get a kick out of those who compare WOW to what EQII and VSOH are going after. What we're seeing today are mere baby steps to what will be common in 5-10 years. Granted WOW is all the rage today but in 3-4 years it will be laughable at best.
Ask yourself do you really want the trail blazers to stop forging ahead. After all, what's kind of creepy today is merely laying the ground work of what will be considered beautiful tomorow.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
While Vanguard does take a realistic approach (and executes it horrible: washed out colors, plastique looking characters, etc), it has a very boring art direction. Why go for the realistic approach if you are just going to create landscapes you can you out into a forest and see for yourself? Yes they have some interesting architecture, but nothing spectacular or worth noting as being anything different from other games of the genre. Seriously, the art direction is what's lacking. That's why so many companies don't go for an ultra-realistic direction, because they fail at implementing it, and it severely limits creative thinking for environments.
Games like WoW are so commended not only because they don't take a lot of power to run (at least relative to Vanguard) but because it also has unparalleded art direction. There is so much beauty in the world because they use their talents to create fantastic environments with mystery. Not your standard forests and cities.
Realistic approach is one thing, but if it's boring, then why do it, especially if you can't do it well.
Don't compare LOTRO until you are running with the high rez client.
I am sure that some people will have a slightly higher view of LOTRO on release day.
I doubt it because graphics are a matter of taste. I myself don't see what some think are so great about Vanguards. All it has going for it are a long draw distance and nice trees. The characters are clunky, the colors washed out, and the animations are horrid compare to LoTRO which also has a great draw distance. Considering that Lotro's performance is better by a factor of ten or more and LoTRO is the winner by far. Most people have already shown that they are not going out and building a new 3500 dollar box just so they can get 30FPS in a game like the Vanboys seem to think . A recent reader posted "poll" on the general forums showed that most other people do also.
I miss DAoC
While Vanguard does take a realistic approach (and executes it horrible: washed out colors, plastique looking characters, etc), it has a very boring art direction. Why go for the realistic approach if you are just going to create landscapes you can you out into a forest and see for yourself? Yes they have some interesting architecture, but nothing spectacular or worth noting as being anything different from other games of the genre. Seriously, the art direction is what's lacking. That's why so many companies don't go for an ultra-realistic direction, because they fail at implementing it, and it severely limits creative thinking for environments.
Games like WoW are so commended not only because they don't take a lot of power to run (at least relative to Vanguard) but because it also has unparalleded art direction. There is so much beauty in the world because they use their talents to create fantastic environments with mystery. Not your standard forests and cities.
Realistic approach is one thing, but if it's boring, then why do it, especially if you can't do it well.
While WOW is certainly a fun little romp, I beg to differ with the unparralled art direction statement.
Among the so called "artistic styled" titles Lineage II, Guild Wars, Ryzom, Grenado Espada and LOTRO surpass WOW in art direction and graphics. Don't fall for people pulling the "artistic & stylistic" card to pass off subpar graphics.
Look....Blizz gambled by making a game that could run well on 5 year old systems. Congrats to them for making a choice that has payed off big time.
However eventually the pipper must be paid and make no mistake the trade off is graphic quality.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Art direction is all a matter of preference and I think WoW has the best art direction of any MMO. I make no mistake that their graphics technology is years old, but even at years old - what they have done with so little is nothing short of incredible. And like I said, their art direction has allowed them to use lesser technology because they aren't going for a hyper-realistic approach - none of the Warcraft games has (they've all been cartoonish). So many MMOs have environments you have seen over and over and over again, but not in WoW, they have crafted a beautiful world very different than many games, bursting with life and color. But by now, especially with my new computer, I wish they could bring their phenominal art-direction to better graphical technology because their textures are so tiny (making them appear so stretched out over objects), characters and environments are incredibly low poly, their lighting is alright, but very very old tech. Their graphical technology was considered old when it launched in November of 2004. Now almost 2.5 years later, it's just old (but still is beautiful), it would be so amazing if they launched a new graphics engine.
I have yet to see if LOTRO has surpassed WoW's art direction. Their fields of green though, their towns are very very pretty. But artistically so far things seem to be just the standard- this I worry about because of LOTR was not some ultra-fantasy like WoW, LOTR spawned the ideas that games like WoW came to utilize later and take to a much more extreme degree. LOTR is based in an older-fantasy world.
Art direction is all a matter of preference and I think WoW has the best art direction of any MMO. I make no mistake that their graphics technology is years old, but even at years old - what they have done with so little is nothing short of incredible. And like I said, their art direction has allowed them to use lesser technology because they aren't going for a hyper-realistic approach - none of the Warcraft games has (they've all been cartoonish). So many MMOs have environments you have seen over and over and over again, but not in WoW, they have crafted a beautiful world very different than many games, bursting with life and color. But by now, especially with my new computer, I wish they could bring their phenominal art-direction to better graphical technology because their textures are so tiny (making them appear so stretched out over objects), characters and environments are incredibly low poly, their lighting is alright, but very very old tech. Their graphical technology was considered old when it launched in November of 2004. Now almost 2.5 years later, it's just old (but still is beautiful), it would be so amazing if they launched a new graphics engine.
I have yet to see if LOTRO has surpassed WoW's art direction. Their fields of green though, their towns are very very pretty. But artistically so far things seem to be just the standard- this I worry about because of LOTR was not some ultra-fantasy like WoW, LOTR spawned the ideas that games like WoW came to utilize later and take to a much more extreme degree. LOTR is based in an older-fantasy world.
LOL.... ok we'll agree to disagree then. If you see WOW's graphics & art direction even in the same league as the titles I've mentioned it's clear you're an ardent fan thus leaving you unable to view things objectively.
I suppose there are people who view the mustang a superior automobile to a Lamborghini..
To each his own I guess.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.