Well, let's see what was said here (without the fluff) : * "it needed 200k-300k to be successful" and "So far we are in the mid 150s". That would mean by Brad's own measure, V:SoH is NOT successful and is, indeed, a failure.
LOL. Sorry, this was blunt enough to make me actually laugh out loud. I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say he's admitting it's a failure, rather that it is an incomplete success at this time. (in Brad-speak, anyways)
I don't see where they are going to get these additional subs to hit the numbers Brad is shooting for. Time is going to bring more competition. There are already plenty of people who are going to ditch after their initial trial period, and word of mouth on the street for the game is abysmal.
lawl.... Okay well I have to disagree with the statement of CoH having the best customer service out there, I haven't played the game myself (yes yes, I haven't played so how could I know blah blah blah) Ryzom is also extremely good with it's customer service and their company's bloody underfunded! They even have GM's and CSR's playing along side the players and helping them when need be, not just hiding away like Blizzard do, or for that matter many other companies. This Vanguard thing is getting on my nerves now.... it's done people, it's been screwed up before it's been released, I really think that if anyone defends that game then they should just go and play other games THEN start playing that game again to see if their opinion has changed, if not, then yeah, they're pretty much a community of 'vanguard' cultists :P I have to say, I don't know what it is about SOE's games that people enjoy so much, but I wouldn't be surprised it was just the employees pretending to be players, now World of Warcraft's not a failure, hell it's an astounding success for the MMORPG community, but there are people who hate it that are still playing it, because it's actually a half-decent game that isn't completely bug filled and about to shut down....
How can these people play bug filled and broken down games when they know nothing is going to be fixed? The developers will just think they're on the right track if people will say they're fine with how it is.... It's just like when SWG's NGE came out.... I couldn't understand how people could actually enjoy playing something like that.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
Dont you know that he was faced with a horrible choice ?
Dont you understand he had to release a sub par product that didnt live up to what he said it would ?
Dont you understand it was get your money then, or maybe not ever ?
Dont you understand that Brad needs your money ?
People, please for the love of all thats good and holy,think about it from his perspectice for once.
Dont you understand he might have bills that need to be paid. Like for tuning up his car ?
Cmon ! He said hes sorry.You dont want that mechanic to suffer financial hardship becuase you didnt give Brad your money ,do you ?
I mean he did say he was sorry .He did.
And what about all those other things Brad might need your money for ?
Do you think he'll be able to personally deliver free food to starving orphans in third world countries during his walks across the worlds oceans,if you dont give him your money ?
My god people ! Think of the children !
He said hes sorry,isnt that enough for you to give him your money ?
And what about the "Church of Brad "?
If you dont buy his apology, how will he ever be able to build and fund a church for all those young boy fans ?
Do you think those boy fans should have to deal with people who arent part of the Church of Brad ?
Dont you think they need their own forums and clubhouses ?
My god people, again think of the children !
All this wonder that is Brad costs money ! The sub par products he wants to make and than sell you cost money !The payroll that allows him to come online and apologize for those sub par products cost money !Brads mechanic costs money !
He's said hes sorry ! He did !
He needs your money ! Send it to him now !Dont even buy his sub par product,just send your money in the mail addressed personally to him !
Dont wait !
That money might be needed by him for any mulitude of good and holy things !
Think about this . IF you dont send him your money, how will he ever be able to make yet another sub par product to sell to you.
See ? So if you dont send him your money you're actually hurting yourself !
Don't hurt yourself.Theres no reason. He said he's sorry.So enough already, just send him more money !
Lastly , he said hes sorry.He did.Its one of rare those times that like minds connect .
Many of you have known since your EQ1 experiences that he was a sorry game developer.
Now hes admitted it !
What more can you need from him ? Send him your money! NOW!
I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would give this guy one second of sympathy or respect. This guy is the iconic reason why this genre has been going down the toilet. The number 1 reason for all the crap MMOs is because they are released too early. Giving this guy credit for anything or buying a game that you know isn't finished is only furthering the release of future MMOs as retail beta's. When you start holding developers to higher standards, then when we as gamers will get better games. You don't own stock in the company, so you don't have anything to gain if the game succeeds, so stop wearing rose colored glasses and make these idiots accountable by holding their feet to the fire.
Exactly!
I cannot understand why people sit here and defend a company that released a product that was no where NEAR finished. We're all in business too... can you imagine if you tried to sell a sweater without an arm, a car without a cooling system... and after you open the package you're told "We'll have the missing part out to you as soon as possible"? I'm in a family business and if I ever tried to sell a product that was inferior or unfinished, I would either have to refund the money paid or subject myself to a lawsuit. Why is it that MMO companies can release unfinished products and get away with it?
The worst thing here is that some people will unwillingly purchase this game not knowing the condition it is in. Not everyone reads forums to get the latest information on the status of a game. Some will see it on a shelf and buy it, thinking it's in a finished, playable form. That's MISLEADING. Can you return the opened game for a refund once you find out the game is not what it was advertised to be? Nope.. no way, no how.
The major excuse that's used is "MMO's are constantly changing and evolving". Ok, I'll go with that... but it has to be in a finished form, ready to play in order for it to be released. How many games have been released in that form recently? Not many at all. That statement has become the excuse to get consumers to pay for an incomplete and buggy product.
Five years, 30 million dollars and two months after release there are still MAJOR problems with the game? What does that tell you? Anyone who purchased the game on launch day has literally paid $80 so far to play an unfinished, inferior product that is still in beta testing. So, with 100k of subscribers, Sigil has made 8 MILLION dollars from VG so far!
MAKE MMO COMPANIES ACCOUNTABLE, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US! If we keep supporting companies like this, the MMO genre never change.
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
It is rather unfortunate that a CEO of one of the year's most anticipated games takes the stance that most potential customers as well as current customers should be ok if they just upgrade through purchasing new computers. Sad, indeed. I certainly hope someone can show me how his statement was misread by me. It sure appears that he's saying that as soon as technology catches up and we get that technology the problem will "go away"... ???
Curious...
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
It is rather unfortunate that a CEO of one of the year's most anticipated games takes the stance that most potential customers as well as current customers should be ok if they just upgrade through purchasing new computers. Sad, indeed. I certainly hope someone can show me how his statement was misread by me. It sure appears that he's saying that as soon as technology catches up and we get that technology the problem will "go away"... ???
Curious...
By Brad's own admission, they used a graphics engine that wasn't suited to what they wanted to do in VG. For that reason, I don't know if they can ever make the problem "go away" even with better technology.
Think about it this way. People with top of the line systems, at this point in time, (core duo processors, 2GB+ RAM, 8800GTX video card) still report unplayable framerates in raid situations (20+ players in localized area).
It will take 6 months, minimum for that level of technology to become close to mainstream.... and even then, you need BETTER especially in raid situations.
At that rate, it will take over a year for technology to "catch up", and I don't see VG even being taken seriously as an MMORPG 1 year from now.
It is rather unfortunate that a CEO of one of the year's most anticipated games takes the stance that most potential customers as well as current customers should be ok if they just upgrade through purchasing new computers. Sad, indeed. I certainly hope someone can show me how his statement was misread by me. It sure appears that he's saying that as soon as technology catches up and we get that technology the problem will "go away"... ???
Curious...
That's the second time he has blamed his games poor optimization on the customer for not having good enough hardware. Maybe they should have thought of this when they put the system requirements on the side of the box? Makes you wonder if anyone even tested the game or if they threw darts at a chart to decide what requirements should be on the box. There are a lot of people using the newest 8800 series video cards who machines are puking trying walk across his "seamless" world. By the time technology catches up, or they fix this thing, there will be bigger and better games out that will actually run better on less.
Pretty sure the 8800 is the top card on the market right now. It has direct X 10 support and has models that comes with 700+ Megs of Video Ram on it. Its like a $400-500 dollar card.
What I am not understanding is how I have the x1600 card and 2 gigs of memory and I can run this game at its highest settings with 32-35 fps and people with better machines than mine claim to get like 10 fps in towns and 20 in the world.
What I am not understanding is how I have the x1600 card and 2 gigs of memory and I can run this game at its highest settings with 32-35 fps and people with better machines than mine claim to get like 10 fps in towns and 20 in the world.
It's called luck. Sometimes a high end system performs adequately, sometimes a low end system
runs adequately. Just consider yourself lucky. The dice could have rolled differently for you.
All the histrionics and tub-thumping get a bit tiresome, it's just a game - some games you like some games you don't. All the rants about legal suits to reclaim your $50 just comes across as a bit childish, do I like every movie I go to, do I agree with every artistic, casting or plotting decision that went into that movie, well no I don't but even the ones I really don't like I don't think I can sue Universal or whoever to get the price of my cinema ticket back.
All MMO's ship in various stages over their lifetime effectively - no argument Vanguard released too early, but either continue to subscribe or not the choice is yours. Half the people having hysterics were probably the same ones claiming they were ripped off over WoW not having battlegrounds in for nearly a year despite it being printed in the manual, and will probably go on to claim similar grievances about all the others games coming out.
CoH was a great example of a good release, but to be fair it is vastly smaller in scope, world-size and mechanics - all instanced generated missions, a few fairly simple controlled persistant zones with not much adventuring in them, very nice character customisation, a few basic skills to add powerups to and that's it really no loot table, no crafting or harvesting, no equipment of any kind, no mounts or houses or boats or auction houses or diplomacy, vastly vastly smaller world size, etc etc. Not to say it's a bad game, it's quite fun - but it is alot simpler a proposition. Best criticism of Vanguard is they tried to do too much and didn't get everything finished - some people think they'll finish some don't, choice is yours.
All the histrionics and tub-thumping get a bit tiresome, it's just a game - some games you like some games you don't. All the rants about legal suits to reclaim your $50 just comes across as a bit childish, do I like every movie I go to, do I agree with every artistic, casting or plotting decision that went into that movie, well no I don't but even the ones I really don't like I don't think I can sue Universal or whoever to get the price of my cinema ticket back.
Difference is, they don't stop the movie after the first 15 minutes and tell you to come back in a few months when they're done filming, do they?
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Vanguard doesn't stop after 15 minutes either. And it has kept people quite entertained so that wether you hate it or love it you spend hours on this forum discussing it.
I take it you didn't see Kill Bill part 1 & 2 or the LOTR trilogy or.... I could go on.
Point is, as much as we might each be certain only our opinions are the sane measure, and everyone else is misguided, mad, mischevious or machiavellian - VG is playable because people are playing it, it is enjoyable for some, because some people are enjoying it, it is worthwhile for some because they are finding it so. It's no some car where the airbags are failing and killing people, it's just a bit of entertainment. There's always room for improvement though
Very true my example was a bit to the extreme and know we would face the same problems as in tech., but I really do wonder over all these years WOW is running where all that money is going, like I said in BC?, so that’s about $ 119.600.000, a month x X years x 12 months afcourse they did not have 8mil from the start so lets make it rough and say they make 60/70mil a month, I know business upkeep is expensive especially in that industry, but really you would have thought they could come up with something more then BC, again let me say no bash at wow, I’m genuine curious what Blizzard does besides the obvious marketing strategy's.
Your example was ridiculous. You started by putting the horse before the cart stating the game's gfx should have rivaled Vanguard because of their 8 million subscribers. They didn't have 8 million at launch or before. The game was built around performance (clearly the superior choice) not appearance.
Secondly I would assume that most of the money they're making is going into keeping their company affloat (notice they have no other competing software on the market at this time) through investments in R&D.
A trend I've noticed in people is to assume evil on behalf of all bill takers when the spender has absolutely no idea what the money goes toward or the cost of the product they are paying for. Unless you know why are you demonizing Blizzard?
Let us be honest for a moment plz. Vanguard is junk. It was devised by people who had no idea what they were getting into wrt to technical performance issues. The game lack content in part do to such issues. This does not bode well for Sigil even in the most remote sense. Brad predicts sales will climb and yet he has no reason to assume this given their current poor (and unreferenced) sales. Vanguard offers nothing that existing or better designed upcoming titles don't already have. Vanguard is dead in the water and I predict that Sigil's doors will close within a year.
To all of you who wasted your money on this title I say "tough luck". You should have listened to beta testers and not fan boys. it was obviously that Brad and crew hadn't learned a damn thing since EQ.
I agree with you that the game is "special" for lack of better term and I am not here to judge the developers talent because god knows I could never do their job, but your argument is different than mine. While we agree the game is "special" you claim that sales won't go up because it doesn't add anything that existing or upcoming games do not offer. I remember wow getting the same talk because it added nothing new at all and BGs were in the book for WoW yet they didn't get thrown into the game until almost a full year later.
Incredible how frustrated and negative some people are. I find Brad’s posts sincere and constructive. I'm enjoying Vanguard alot, its the game I always wanted to play!! It's is sooo beautiful and exciting. Finally a game with depth that makes senseand you don’t feel in a box. Vanguard in a year, will be even so much better. Quick back to journey on....
Playing: TESO (great!) ************** Most looking forward for: Everquest Next ************** Have Played: World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Vanguard, Everquest Online Adventures, Everquest 1, EverQuest 2, Dungeons & Dragons Online, The Chronical of Spellborn, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Aion, CoH, Loong, Dragon nest, LoL, Alods, Diablo 3, NWN, Tera, Poe, Guild Wars 2, Rift Most favorite; Everquest online Adventures (EQOA, 2003, PS2)
a bought it along with windows vista. although vista had some really disappointing features i always thought about the bad sides of vg.now im quite happy with my windows and i canceled vg until the major bugs are fixed.
Comments
I don't see where they are going to get these additional subs to hit the numbers Brad is shooting for. Time is going to bring more competition. There are already plenty of people who are going to ditch after their initial trial period, and word of mouth on the street for the game is abysmal.
How can these people play bug filled and broken down games when they know nothing is going to be fixed? The developers will just think they're on the right track if people will say they're fine with how it is.... It's just like when SWG's NGE came out.... I couldn't understand how people could actually enjoy playing something like that.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
MY GOD people, whats wrong with you ?
He said he's sorry.He did.He really did.
Dont you understand his point at all ?
Dont you know that he was faced with a horrible choice ?
Dont you understand he had to release a sub par product that didnt live up to what he said it would ?
Dont you understand it was get your money then, or maybe not ever ?
Dont you understand that Brad needs your money ?
People, please for the love of all thats good and holy,think about it from his perspectice for once.
Dont you understand he might have bills that need to be paid. Like for tuning up his car ?
Cmon ! He said hes sorry.You dont want that mechanic to suffer financial hardship becuase you didnt give Brad your money ,do you ?
I mean he did say he was sorry .He did.
And what about all those other things Brad might need your money for ?
Do you think he'll be able to personally deliver free food to starving orphans in third world countries during his walks across the worlds oceans,if you dont give him your money ?
My god people ! Think of the children !
He said hes sorry,isnt that enough for you to give him your money ?
And what about the "Church of Brad "?
If you dont buy his apology, how will he ever be able to build and fund a church for all those young boy fans ?
Do you think those boy fans should have to deal with people who arent part of the Church of Brad ?
Dont you think they need their own forums and clubhouses ?
My god people, again think of the children !
All this wonder that is Brad costs money ! The sub par products he wants to make and than sell you cost money !The payroll that allows him to come online and apologize for those sub par products cost money !Brads mechanic costs money !
He's said hes sorry ! He did !
He needs your money ! Send it to him now !Dont even buy his sub par product,just send your money in the mail addressed personally to him !
Dont wait !
That money might be needed by him for any mulitude of good and holy things !
Think about this . IF you dont send him your money, how will he ever be able to make yet another sub par product to sell to you.
See ? So if you dont send him your money you're actually hurting yourself !
Don't hurt yourself.Theres no reason. He said he's sorry.So enough already, just send him more money !
Lastly , he said hes sorry.He did.Its one of rare those times that like minds connect .
Many of you have known since your EQ1 experiences that he was a sorry game developer.
Now hes admitted it !
What more can you need from him ? Send him your money! NOW!
Hurry !
Only you can make Brad feel less sorry.
Exactly!
I cannot understand why people sit here and defend a company that released a product that was no where NEAR finished. We're all in business too... can you imagine if you tried to sell a sweater without an arm, a car without a cooling system... and after you open the package you're told "We'll have the missing part out to you as soon as possible"? I'm in a family business and if I ever tried to sell a product that was inferior or unfinished, I would either have to refund the money paid or subject myself to a lawsuit. Why is it that MMO companies can release unfinished products and get away with it?
The worst thing here is that some people will unwillingly purchase this game not knowing the condition it is in. Not everyone reads forums to get the latest information on the status of a game. Some will see it on a shelf and buy it, thinking it's in a finished, playable form. That's MISLEADING. Can you return the opened game for a refund once you find out the game is not what it was advertised to be? Nope.. no way, no how.
The major excuse that's used is "MMO's are constantly changing and evolving". Ok, I'll go with that... but it has to be in a finished form, ready to play in order for it to be released. How many games have been released in that form recently? Not many at all. That statement has become the excuse to get consumers to pay for an incomplete and buggy product.
Five years, 30 million dollars and two months after release there are still MAJOR problems with the game? What does that tell you? Anyone who purchased the game on launch day has literally paid $80 so far to play an unfinished, inferior product that is still in beta testing. So, with 100k of subscribers, Sigil has made 8 MILLION dollars from VG so far!
MAKE MMO COMPANIES ACCOUNTABLE, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US! If we keep supporting companies like this, the MMO genre never change.
_________________________________
JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Curious...
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Think about it this way. People with top of the line systems, at this point in time, (core duo processors, 2GB+ RAM, 8800GTX video card) still report unplayable framerates in raid situations (20+ players in localized area).
It will take 6 months, minimum for that level of technology to become close to mainstream.... and even then, you need BETTER especially in raid situations.
At that rate, it will take over a year for technology to "catch up", and I don't see VG even being taken seriously as an MMORPG 1 year from now.
TwitchTV Partnered Streamer
MMORPG.com Spotlight Blog Writer
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TwitchTV Partnered Streamer
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Co-Leader of Inquisition
Youtube Channel
runs adequately. Just consider yourself lucky. The dice could have rolled differently for you.
All MMO's ship in various stages over their lifetime effectively - no argument Vanguard released too early, but either continue to subscribe or not the choice is yours. Half the people having hysterics were probably the same ones claiming they were ripped off over WoW not having battlegrounds in for nearly a year despite it being printed in the manual, and will probably go on to claim similar grievances about all the others games coming out.
CoH was a great example of a good release, but to be fair it is vastly smaller in scope, world-size and mechanics - all instanced generated missions, a few fairly simple controlled persistant zones with not much adventuring in them, very nice character customisation, a few basic skills to add powerups to and that's it really no loot table, no crafting or harvesting, no equipment of any kind, no mounts or houses or boats or auction houses or diplomacy, vastly vastly smaller world size, etc etc. Not to say it's a bad game, it's quite fun - but it is alot simpler a proposition. Best criticism of Vanguard is they tried to do too much and didn't get everything finished - some people think they'll finish some don't, choice is yours.
Difference is, they don't stop the movie after the first 15 minutes and tell you to come back in a few months when they're done filming, do they?
_________________________________
JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
Point is, as much as we might each be certain only our opinions are the sane measure, and everyone else is misguided, mad, mischevious or machiavellian - VG is playable because people are playing it, it is enjoyable for some, because some people are enjoying it, it is worthwhile for some because they are finding it so. It's no some car where the airbags are failing and killing people, it's just a bit of entertainment. There's always room for improvement though
Your example was ridiculous. You started by putting the horse before the cart stating the game's gfx should have rivaled Vanguard because of their 8 million subscribers. They didn't have 8 million at launch or before. The game was built around performance (clearly the superior choice) not appearance.
Secondly I would assume that most of the money they're making is going into keeping their company affloat (notice they have no other competing software on the market at this time) through investments in R&D.
A trend I've noticed in people is to assume evil on behalf of all bill takers when the spender has absolutely no idea what the money goes toward or the cost of the product they are paying for. Unless you know why are you demonizing Blizzard?
To all of you who wasted your money on this title I say "tough luck". You should have listened to beta testers and not fan boys. it was obviously that Brad and crew hadn't learned a damn thing since EQ.
Rofl and the South with rise again!
Playing: TESO (great!)
**************
Most looking forward for: Everquest Next
**************
Have Played: World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Vanguard, Everquest Online Adventures, Everquest 1, EverQuest 2, Dungeons & Dragons Online, The Chronical of Spellborn, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Aion, CoH, Loong, Dragon nest, LoL, Alods, Diablo 3, NWN, Tera, Poe, Guild Wars 2, Rift
Most favorite; Everquest online Adventures (EQOA, 2003, PS2)
a bought it along with windows vista. although vista had some really disappointing features i always thought about the bad sides of vg.now im quite happy with my windows and i canceled vg until the major bugs are fixed.
Of course, but we have no one to blame for the shottiness of the product but Sigil.