If Brad really wants to apologize to me, he can offer to refund my copy of the game and give me a reasonable amount of compensation for the hours I spent playing the game before he admitted to releasing the game too early in that NY Times article. I'll settle for the former, but an excuse that involves "working your ass off" and the hardships of leadership is bullshit. I've been leading a student organization at my university for three years with no monetary gain, and yeah, it's hard work. Boo Hoo Brad; maybe you should try leading a group of several hundred with little or no outside help and without monetary gain. Then you can come to me and complain about how hard it is to motivate people and get something tangible out into the world for people to consume. Like most people, I have to work my ass off most days just to maintain a reasonable standard of living, so screw you Brad.
I'll tell you a secret about human beings Brad:
People will generally and genuinely forgive you for screwing them over if you, 1) Admit it, and 2) Make real amends for it. There's no middle ground here.
In short, give me my money back for Vanguard, and I might consider playing the game in six months to a year after you've finished it.
Could someone point me to the section of the minimum, or even the required specs where it promises a specific framerate?
It's not just about frame rates. Minimum and Required specs are put on the box to give consumers some sort of idea what kind of computer is needed to run the game at all, with the assumption that the game will be playable, and with a minimum of hassle.
Let's look at both sets. These are the Minimum:
Windows 2000/XP
2.4Ghz Intel Processor or 2400+ or higher model AMD processor
512MB RAM
100% DirectX 9.0c compatible computer. 100% DirectX compatible keyboard or input device. Vertex and Pixel shader 2.0 compatible hardware with 128MB of texture memory.
100% DirectX compatible sound card
56k+ Internet Connection
16X Speed DVD-ROM
20Gigabytes Hard Drive Space
Can you honestly read those Minimum specs and tell me that anyone who is standing in Best Buy reading the box and thinking of buying the game, and whose system meets these requirements would be able to run Vanguard at the Balanced setting, or even at Highest Performance? No, they couldn't. They'd barely be able to run it at all.
These are the Recommended specs:
Windows 2000/XP/Vista
Processor 3.0Ghz Intel or 3500+ AMD processor
2GB RAM
100% DirectX 9.0c compatible computer. 100% DirectX compatible keyboard or input device. Vertex and Pixel shader 2.0 compatible hardware with 256MB of texture memory.
DirectSound compatible audio hardware
Broadband Internet Connection
16X Speed DVD-ROM
20Gigabytes Hard Drive Space
Nowhere in these Recommended specs does it make any mention of needing 3GB or more of RAM, dual core processors, or 7950GT or higher nVidia (or comparable ATI brand) graphics cards in order to play anywhere near the highest settings of the game. There's also no mention of needing to tweak your .ini files and jumping through a bunch of other hoops in order to squeeze out better performance, since even a system that exceeds these specs is still going to have problems with the game.
None of this is just about frame rates. It's about the general performance of the game based on its advertised requirements.
Blaming an impulse buyer for not researching the game for days and weeks is bogus, just because most people will end up seeing what is on the box and comparing it to what they have. If they have better, they will automatically assume the game will work as intended, since, you know, it should.
Just a point on the 60fps to look realistic argument earlier in the thread, all those films you've been to at the cinema were running at 24frames per second, and you couldn't tell the difference, your TV is either running at 25frames or 30frames per second depending on where in the world you live also.
We also had the switch from MSFT to SOE which slowed us down and caused us to start beta too early.
From SOE & Sigil's original press release regarding the transfer of Vanguard from MGS to Sigil & SOE:
May 5, 2006 – Carlsbad & San Diego, CA – Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that Sigil is working with Microsoft Game Studios on an arrangement to acquire the rights to its highly anticipated massively multiplayer online (MMO) game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.
Wow. I really dug VG for the first 12 levels or so, and then it got tedious and I tired of them putting out messy patches that broke things in every section of the game (update #1). Seeing Brad rip on DDO like it's the worst MMO (or simply worst selling MMO) just makes me more glad I cancelled.
I haven't bought the game, waiting a bit, bit I think what he said showed alot of character.
Most designers won't even step out, let alone atep out and assume responsibility publicly for flaws.
And if I were a VG player I would be encouraged by his commitment to the perfection of his game.. you know he wants it done right, and will make it that way.
And if I were a VG player I would be encouraged by his commitment to the perfection of his game.. you know he wants it done right, and will make it that way.
They had five years and over $30 million to spend. If they couldn't get anywhere near perfection then, why would they suddenly be able to get there now? Because he said something publicly?
Just a point on the 60fps to look realistic argument earlier in the thread, all those films you've been to at the cinema were running at 24frames per second, and you couldn't tell the difference, your TV is either running at 25frames or 30frames per second depending on where in the world you live also.
Totally correct Parmenium.
However the difference here is that a cinema film, dvd or other tv broadcast material will normally run for eaxample at a constant / consistent 25-30 fps and never fluctuate by more than a frame or so due to picture and processing conditions.
Obviously the world of computer games is vastly different in that say for example a new game you buy averages 45fps on your hardware.
Your eye obviously cannot notice the additional frames because it is above the threshhold for human sight. However your hardware and indeed your computer system does notice this and in times of peak processing loading and for example file paging and cacheing this Frames per second rate will take a hit and reduce by say for example 10 frames to 35fps, or even 25fps. That is absolutely fine however because this is still in the limits of a smooth visible play experience.
Vanguard frame rates however fluctuate wildly due to unoptimizations at code and engine level...i have posted on this in a different thread here. There are many examples of peoples hardware matching the reccomended specifications on Vanguards packaging and them recieving an average frame rate in the wilderness of around 30fps. This is all well and good but as soon as the engine increases the processing load in circumstances of Grouping, Raiding and of course moving into areas with a higher compression of models and animation the Frames of the application take a turn for the sub 18fps mark and that is where the human eye and indeed the games player begins to see impacted visual performance.
Games that can run in the average of a 40 - 60 frames per second boundry are not necessarily a bad thing because even as the game demands more processing and cacheing operations depending on the action in the game the additional frames can be lost without noticable impact.
Because of vanguards unoptimization on multiple hardware platforms it doesnt operate at very high framerates, so when the engine does demand more at peak play points, performance visibly takes a hit and the play experience suffers.
Originally posted by Cutedge Wow. I really dug VG for the first 12 levels or so, and then it got tedious and I tired of them putting out messy patches that broke things in every section of the game (update #1). Seeing Brad rip on DDO like it's the worst MMO (or simply worst selling MMO) just makes me more glad I cancelled.
While I won't say it was the worst mmo ever, it did pretty much suck at release. I have heard its gotten somewhat better, but adding in some solo content isn't enough to bring me back to that game. It is only one of two games that I ever quit before the end of my free month. The other was Eve (lasted about 4 hours in that game).
DDO is the reason I am playing VG and will not touch LOTRO (Turbine).
And if I were a VG player I would be encouraged by his commitment to the perfection of his game.. you know he wants it done right, and will make it that way.
They had five years and over $30 million to spend. If they couldn't get anywhere near perfection then, why would they suddenly be able to get there now? Because he said something publicly?
"Suddenly"? Did I write that somewhere?
Don't read into my post through your angry eyes and add bits to it, he seems a developer dedicated to his vision, from all I've read that he's written along the way he is serious about making it happen, eventually.
The opposite would be that he isn't going to put any more work into it, doesn't care if it sucks, and doesn't realize he has made mistakes... I didn't get that impression.
So calm down, or at least direct your madness elsewhere, I'm just trying to point out the good aspects everyone tends to miss.. people get pished if the devs say nothing and here people get pished when they do.. can't win either way.
Regardless, I'm not paying for this, it doesn't bother me.. and if you are paying than you either enjoy it enough to validate the measly 50 cents a day or you are a fool who likes wasting money just so you can get all riled about about how you got 'taken'.
Originally posted by Lidane Originally posted by Coldmeat Could someone point me to the section of the minimum, or even the required specs where it promises a specific framerate?
*snip*
with the assumption
*snip*
There's that pesky word again.
How does that saying go? Oh, yeah. Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
Originally posted by Coldmeat Could someone point me to the section of the minimum, or even the required specs where it promises a specific framerate?
*snip*
with the assumption
*snip*
There's that pesky word again.
How does that saying go? Oh, yeah. Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
I always heard when you assume you make an ass out of you and me.
That being said, in dealing with contract law, there is an implicit assumption (yep, there it is) that a good or service will perform as a "reasonable" person would expect.
If I buy a car, it should drive. If I buy a loaf of bread it should be edible and so on.
Companies for a while have been getting away with putting retarded specs on games and everyone just shrugs it off and keeps going.
As for Brad's statement:
I saw it as probably some of the whining he's been doing to the investors. He probably poorly managed or delegated management to others that didn't properly manage time.
Project management of around 100+ people working in diverse departments can become almost impossible to handle. Remember, he's got art people & programmers & executives (to make him feel more important) & writers & UI people & music people & marketing & legal and so forth.
It is actually pretty damned hard, without practice, to keep your focus on all of them. A lot of times, without proper direction, most people slack off. They miss target dates.
We also don't know if he can even program. (I don't remember this being said.) If he can't program, and he's not an artist, then he has additional problems because he can be bullshitted about delays. That'll cost more money and time.
Add even more if he's been a pompous ass and let his team know it. They'll snicker as they shove another paycheck in their pockets.
In a freakin multi-path project the art department might not get their stuff on time, leaving the coders hanging until they figure out the scale was wrong for a building or something. Then they have to go back and fix it.
Also, bad pre-planning can eat up loads of time. I've seen project managers show up with a single page of notes for a huge project. They have no idea what they're trying to do or how to plan. The underpants gnome thing. Vanguard smells like gnomish underpants to me.
The writers have to be on the ball VERY early because the quests and lore have to be in to account for any problems in their "vision" that slaps the developers upside the head. (I have actually been on both sides of the fence on a smaller scale as well as managed, so I can understand.)
And that money doesn't grow on trees. If "the man" was too focused on being "the man" and not cracking the whip, you would be surprised how fast a company can go through $30m.
With a hundred people and 4 years, AND starting with an engine already somewhat in place, we can suspect that the most efficient work methods weren't used. Especially considering the product produced.
Anyway, I could go on about that.
So, on one hand, it is an enormously stressful job to manage that many diverse groups in a big project.
On the other hand, I haven't seen any creativity or clever moves yet. Everything in both EQ1 and Vanguard has been lifted from somewhere else.
Vanguard would be a pleasant-but-average game if it weren't for obviously poor design & art choices and an unfinished product (whatever the cause). It is a pity that it won't do very well if experience is any teacher. I don't think they'll go under though.
Eh, I've heard the ass out you one before too, but I like mine better. It's from Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels, so it may be a Brit thing.
As for reasonable, who gets to define reasonable? Am I reasonable? Certainly not. I'm a damned lunatic.
Being a non law person, I've no idea if that's a new or old law, but if it is an old(er) law, then it needs to be rewritten to take software and computers in general into account.
Say person A and B go to the computer store, and buy a computer. They both buy the same computer. And they both buy a copy of the newly released game Box With Shiney Pictures. They each go home, and set up their respective pcs, and install BWSP. Person A starts up the game, and is on his merry way with nary a hiccup. Person B, however, is a bit more computer savvy than A, and strips out a bunch of stuff he feels is just needlessly taking up space on his new pc. Then he proceeds to download some graphics card driver from Guru3d that was released by some yahoo in France, that supposedly optimized the default driver to give 50% better framerate. B, done mucking about, tries to start BWSP, which freaks out, causing his monitor to explode, and kill his pet Macaw, Petey, who happened to be perched nearby.
Now. Who do we blame for the dead macaw? The software developer/publisher? The yahoo from France? B himself, for removing who knows what from his prebuilt pc, and using drivers of questionable origin? Perhaps the monitor manufacturer? Or maybe it was just a defective macaw?
Yeah, it's a bit over the top, but it illustrates a point.
I have a copy of Fable: The Lost Chapters. I cannot successfully install it. I meet the specs on the box, and then some. Damn POS Lionhead devs... Nope, turns out it's a problem with Win XP SP2, it sets some sort of security flag, which prevents the installer from completing. Turns out it's not just a problem with Fable, also.
While the recommended and minimum specs are nice as a guideline, they're totally useless, really, as there is no way the devs can take into account every possible permutation of hardware and drivers any potential customer might have. All they are is the bare minimum of system that should be able to install and start the game.
Hell, pcs are finicky enough that in the Person A & B example above, B could have left his machine stock, and still gotten a different result from A.
The parts about BMQ not being a very good manager, I agree with since I've said mostly the same thing before.
Eh, I've heard the ass out you one before too, but I like mine better. It's from Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels, so it may be a Brit thing. Very kick ass movie. As for reasonable, who gets to define reasonable? Am I reasonable? Certainly not. I'm a damned lunatic. Being a non law person, I've no idea if that's a new or old law, but if it is an old(er) law, then it needs to be rewritten to take software and computers in general into account. I believe it is from English Common Law.
The judge or jury decides what "reasonable" means. Yes, that does cause some interesting arguments to be made. The way I usually hear it defined is: "A concept or understanding whereby a plurality of people would agree."
This begins to be a problem in civil cases. That would be the reason why some old lady's crotch was worth $15m or so to McDonalds until they appealed (where it was reduced to medical expenses and a trivial pain & suffering award). Say person A and B go to the computer store, and buy a computer. They both buy the same computer. And they both buy a copy of the newly released game Box With Shiney Pictures. They each go home, and set up their respective pcs, and install BWSP. Person A starts up the game, and is on his merry way with nary a hiccup. Person B, however, is a bit more computer savvy than A, and strips out a bunch of stuff he feels is just needlessly taking up space on his new pc. Then he proceeds to download some graphics card driver from Guru3d that was released by some yahoo in France, that supposedly optimized the default driver to give 50% better framerate. B, done mucking about, tries to start BWSP, which freaks out, causing his monitor to explode, and kill his pet Macaw, Petey, who happened to be perched nearby. Now. Who do we blame for the dead macaw? The software developer/publisher? The yahoo from France? B himself, for removing who knows what from his prebuilt pc, and using drivers of questionable origin? Perhaps the monitor manufacturer? Or maybe it was just a defective macaw? Yeah, it's a bit over the top, but it illustrates a point. Hehe. Well, I can tell you sort of how it would work out:
The monitor company would be first in line in a civil suit. They would try like hell to show a jury that B cause the issue. Then they would lay blame on the software manufacturer, os manufacturer, and video card manufacturer in turn.
Each of these would defend with experts and briefs.
The OS and software companies would stomp all over (plaintiff) him by getting him to admit that he was the one that changed his machine around and caused the accident.
All of the parties involved would sue him for court costs.
He would spend thousands and thousands on lawyers, if it ever went to trial.
A jury would hear testimony from the monitor people and discovery from B's lawyers probably wouldn't turn up anything (if the monitor were truly not defective).
The monitor people would probably settle out of court for a nominal fee + expenses if the guy were reasonable. (And this is what his council would strongly recommend. It is almost always the best alternative.)
Your case has to do with implied culpability and not really with a reasonable argument.
However, say that you bought an anti-spyware program and brought it home. You installed it and it downloaded an IE browser exploit that pulled your online banking info and sent it to another site.
Chances are a jury would side with you that no reasonable person would expect an anti-spyware program to do that. I have a copy of Fable: The Lost Chapters. I cannot successfully install it. I meet the specs on the box, and then some. Damn POS Lionhead devs... Nope, turns out it's a problem with Win XP SP2, it sets some sort of security flag, which prevents the installer from completing. Turns out it's not just a problem with Fable, also. Odd. And you're running as admin I expect. Oh. I wonder what would happen if you turned off DEP. You might try that. (Google it. I'm not gonna be responsible.) Does it use either nulsoft or miker$ofs msi installer? Do you have anti-virus running?
While the recommended and minimum specs are nice as a guideline, they're totally useless, really, as there is no way the devs can take into account every possible permutation of hardware and drivers any potential customer might have. All they are is the bare minimum of system that should be able to install and start the game. If you could argue damages in court (good luck), then it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that what they printed on the box as the minimum specs would work in any normal computer with those specs. However, it'd be a war of experts. And it'd cost too much to bring to trial. Nor would they settle. In fact, I'd expect they would immediately retaliate by filing an affidavit stating you owe THEM damages for the legal expenses.
In practicality, I agree with you. Most of these people probably have spyware on their pcs. It is certain (note that word) if they use IE in any form. Any of the crapware or trashware most people have on their systems effects a lot as well. (Especially in Dells and HP boxes.) Hell, pcs are finicky enough that in the Person A & B example above, B could have left his machine stock, and still gotten a different result from A. Software and OS tweaks make all the difference. XP runs like shite straight out of the box. And heaven help you if you buy a derrrll (Trans. : "Dell"). They are the sloooooooooooooooooooooowest pieces of garbage.
The parts about BMQ not being a very good manager, I agree with since I've said mostly the same thing before. Well, either he knowingly screwed up the development and released a crappy game knowing it sucked, or as he claimed, he had no idea the thing was fubar (except for the early release date) and was oblivious.
With both of those scenarios he's still incompetent.
Given the Lead responsible for adding item decay talked him into adding it, despite the pretty much universal outcry against it, I'd say it's part wishy washiness, part incompetence, and part design by committee causing the design focus to try and go in 10 different directions at once.
And if I were a VG player I would be encouraged by his commitment to the perfection of his game.. you know he wants it done right, and will make it that way.
They had five years and over $30 million to spend. If they couldn't get anywhere near perfection then, why would they suddenly be able to get there now? Because he said something publicly?
"Suddenly"? Did I write that somewhere?
Don't read into my post through your angry eyes and add bits to it, he seems a developer dedicated to his vision, from all I've read that he's written along the way he is serious about making it happen, eventually.
The opposite would be that he isn't going to put any more work into it, doesn't care if it sucks, and doesn't realize he has made mistakes... I didn't get that impression.
So calm down, or at least direct your madness elsewhere, I'm just trying to point out the good aspects everyone tends to miss.. people get pished if the devs say nothing and here people get pished when they do.. can't win either way.
Regardless, I'm not paying for this, it doesn't bother me.. and if you are paying than you either enjoy it enough to validate the measly 50 cents a day or you are a fool who likes wasting money just so you can get all riled about about how you got 'taken'.
Just stop until it's ready.
I'm not angry, nor have I ever been angry about Vanguard. It's a game, and nothing more. And I knew in beta that it wasn't worth paying for, but I still gave the released game a chance in a free trial after I upgraded my system. I've yet to give Sigil a dime for VG, and probably never will, unless some serious overhauls of both the game environment and the gameplay take place.
But the initial point still stands-- if they haven't gotten anywhere near perfection after five years and millions spent, what is going to turn that around now? Just because Brad said something, and gave the impression that he wants perfection in his game? If he wanted it, he would have found a way to get it when it was in development and before it was ever released. Trying to make any sort of excuses for the state of the game now, including blaming his customers for not having the uber-l33t rigs he thinks they need to run the game, is just bogus.
Since we're on the topic of System Requirements, and all. Here's a current story. Well, it's about 2 minutes old now.
So I was poking around in Steam, and saw the demo for http://www.silverfall-game.com was available. So I grab it. Here's the system reqs:
System Requirements Minimum:
Windows® XP Intel Pentium 4 2.8 Ghz or AMD Athlon XP +2800 higher 512 MB RAM ATI Radeon 9800 256MB VRAM or Nvidia 6600 GT with 256 MB of VRAM or better DirectX version 9.0c-compatible sound card DirectX® 9.0c Network Interface (only for multiplayer games) 10 GB available HD space
Recommended:
Intel Pentium 4 3 Ghz or AMD Athlon XP +3000 1 GB RAM 256MB ATI Radeon X850 or Nvidia GeForce 6800GT
I figure I'm golden, and once it finishes download, go to start the demo. Only to be greeted with a window with an error msg saying that PhysX engine init failed because I don't have PhysX driver 2.4.4 installed.
Didn't see anything requiring a PhysX card, or drivers. I don't have a PhysX card, as I think it's a rediculous waste of money for what it provides.
But I dutifully downloaded the needed driver, and now there is a hawt half-nekkid elf chicky on my monitor that looks sorta like a young Jamie Lee Curtis. I'm guessing they needed the PhysX for the advanced boobie jiggling physics algorithm.
Wow. I really dug VG for the first 12 levels or so, and then it got tedious and I tired of them putting out messy patches that broke things in every section of the game (update #1). Seeing Brad rip on DDO like it's the worst MMO (or simply worst selling MMO) just makes me more glad I cancelled.
While I won't say it was the worst mmo ever, it did pretty much suck at release. I have heard its gotten somewhat better, but adding in some solo content isn't enough to bring me back to that game. It is only one of two games that I ever quit before the end of my free month. The other was Eve (lasted about 4 hours in that game).
DDO is the reason I am playing VG and will not touch LOTRO (Turbine).
Dude the reason your not playing DDo , hehe nvm ..... Think brad needs to eat a huge bowl of STFU . and then take a sip of STFD . Cause he acts like he's been making games for 30 years, dude , it is your second game in the mass market EVER !. You suck at making games becuase your brain doesn't click with current technoloy trends and what gamers want. Your subs will dip by summer to 65,000 by christmas the game will be crutched along and by next summer , server will migrate.
Given the Lead responsible for adding item decay talked him into adding it, despite the pretty much universal outcry against it, I'd say it's part wishy washiness, part incompetence, and part design by committee causing the design focus to try and go in 10 different directions at once.
Well, wishy-washiness when you're a grunt is at least understandable, if deplorable. However, in a CEO it is intolerable. He has a fiduciary duty to the corporation and its stockholders/investors to do everything in his power to maximize their profit. That makes him incompetent.
If he allowed an idiotic design committee to do stupid stuff, then he is still incompetent because he is the leader and should've derailed any nonsense earlier. That's why he's the CEO.
When he decided to be CEO, he decided to step up and be a leader. The failure of the corporation is his fault.
Blaming anyone other than himself for a horrible (but not catastrophic) launch or trying to make excuses is flatly wrong. You can be sure that if the launch went well, themanthemanthemantheman'd have' been shouting from the rooftops about how he did everything himself and fought bears with his looseleaf notebook.
He whiffed, so now he's using the little-kid's excuse: "But.. but... johnny wets the bed everynight. I only did it on 3 days last week!"
I figure I'm golden, and once it finishes download, go to start the demo. Only to be greeted with a window with an error msg saying that PhysX engine init failed because I don't have PhysX driver 2.4.4 installed. 1) I guess laziness middleware is what we're to now isn't it. How sad. 2) Why in the hell didn't they use Havok? It's a lot better and doesn't try to force you to buy their stupid useless add on card. 3) Why the hell didn't the include the installer that comes with the SDK? 4) They probably did need the physics engine. JLC looked physics enabled when she did Halloween.
So much for system requirements. I think that is stupidity in designing an installer.
Originally posted by Cor4x Originally posted by Coldmeat I figure I'm golden, and once it finishes download, go to start the demo. Only to be greeted with a window with an error msg saying that PhysX engine init failed because I don't have PhysX driver 2.4.4 installed. 1) I guess laziness middleware is what we're to now isn't it. How sad. 2) Why in the hell didn't they use Havok? It's a lot better and doesn't try to force you to buy their stupid useless add on card. 3) Why the hell didn't the include the installer that comes with the SDK? 4) They probably did need the physics engine. JLC looked physics enabled when she did Halloween.So much for system requirements. I think that is stupidity in designing an installer.
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Originally posted by Coldmeat I figure I'm golden, and once it finishes download, go to start the demo. Only to be greeted with a window with an error msg saying that PhysX engine init failed because I don't have PhysX driver 2.4.4 installed.
1) I guess laziness middleware is what we're to now isn't it. How sad.
2) Why in the hell didn't they use Havok? It's a lot better and doesn't try to force you to buy their stupid useless add on card.
3) Why the hell didn't the include the installer that comes with the SDK?
4) They probably did need the physics engine. JLC looked physics enabled when she did Halloween. So much for system requirements.
I think that is stupidity in designing an installer.
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Physics cards will go the way of the "killer nic" and such. That is to say they're junk and will fade away soon enough.
AMD is considering, from what I've read, installing a physics subset in its processors or chipset. I hope not.
All of the other physics engines btw (I think there are 4 or 5 major ones) do not use a stupid add on card.
Rag doll physics has its place, say in Carmageddon or a similar game. Martial arts games too probably. And of course... CoH/CoV. It is hilarious to knock some poor soul around and see what funny positions they fall in. Totally unrealistic, but fun.
Originally posted by Coldmeat I figure I'm golden, and once it finishes download, go to start the demo. Only to be greeted with a window with an error msg saying that PhysX engine init failed because I don't have PhysX driver 2.4.4 installed.
1) I guess laziness middleware is what we're to now isn't it. How sad.
2) Why in the hell didn't they use Havok? It's a lot better and doesn't try to force you to buy their stupid useless add on card.
3) Why the hell didn't the include the installer that comes with the SDK?
4) They probably did need the physics engine. JLC looked physics enabled when she did Halloween. So much for system requirements.
I think that is stupidity in designing an installer.
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Physics cards will go the way of the "killer nic" and such. That is to say they're junk and will fade away soon enough.
AMD is considering, from what I've read, installing a physics subset in its processors or chipset. I hope not.
All of the other physics engines btw (I think there are 4 or 5 major ones) do not use a stupid add on card.
Rag doll physics has its place, say in Carmageddon or a similar game. Martial arts games too probably. And of course... CoH/CoV. It is hilarious to knock some poor soul around and see what funny positions they fall in. Totally unrealistic, but fun.
The ragdoll physics is nothing when it comes to the use of physics in City of Heroes/Villains; with an actual PPU you're able to crank up a lot of physics sliders that enhance the game. For an old, low-budget game, it's pretty incredible; oh how often I hold up my team hovering close to the ground in circles seeing how much debris I can pick up from the scrap of some giant robot we wasted.
Anyway, neither of you should think badly of PPUs. At least not when it comes to software vendors like Cryptic who implement the use of them in their game without hindering those without it at all. It's completely optional, not a requirement. Complain when an MMO is released that requires it (and I think NetDevil is working on one, with a destructible environment.)
As for the complaining about Silverfall...you downloaded a demo. Complain when the released product is absent of an installation step to set you up with the appropriate drivers.
Even with that comparison made, you found in 20 minutes apparently the correct drivers you needed to play. Where's my free 3-step installation software that fixes Vanguard?
Originally posted by Coldmeat I figure I'm golden, and once it finishes download, go to start the demo. Only to be greeted with a window with an error msg saying that PhysX engine init failed because I don't have PhysX driver 2.4.4 installed.
1) I guess laziness middleware is what we're to now isn't it. How sad.
2) Why in the hell didn't they use Havok? It's a lot better and doesn't try to force you to buy their stupid useless add on card.
3) Why the hell didn't the include the installer that comes with the SDK?
4) They probably did need the physics engine. JLC looked physics enabled when she did Halloween. So much for system requirements.
I think that is stupidity in designing an installer.
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Physics cards will go the way of the "killer nic" and such. That is to say they're junk and will fade away soon enough.
AMD is considering, from what I've read, installing a physics subset in its processors or chipset. I hope not.
All of the other physics engines btw (I think there are 4 or 5 major ones) do not use a stupid add on card.
Rag doll physics has its place, say in Carmageddon or a similar game. Martial arts games too probably. And of course... CoH/CoV. It is hilarious to knock some poor soul around and see what funny positions they fall in. Totally unrealistic, but fun.
The ragdoll physics is nothing when it comes to the use of physics in City of Heroes/Villains; with an actual PPU you're able to crank up a lot of physics sliders that enhance the game. For an old, low-budget game, it's pretty incredible; oh how often I hold up my team hovering close to the ground in circles seeing how much debris I can pick up from the scrap of some giant robot we wasted.
Anyway, neither of you should think badly of PPUs. At least not when it comes to software vendors like Cryptic who implement the use of them in their game without hindering those without it at all. It's completely optional, not a requirement. Complain when an MMO is released that requires it (and I think NetDevil is working on one, with a destructible environment.)
I have no problem with software physics as long as it's implemented with some sort of reason. I dislike and won't use hardware PPUs and I didn't think they were necessary.
As for the complaining about Silverfall...you downloaded a demo. Complain when the released product is absent of an installation step to set you up with the appropriate drivers.
Well, what was weird is they didn't include the physics client evidently in the demo install. That is going to confuse a lot of people.
Even with that comparison made, you found in 20 minutes apparently the correct drivers you needed to play. Where's my free 3-step installation software that fixes Vanguard?
1) Start -> Settings --> Control Panel --> Add or Remove Programs
2) Wait while the list is propagated.
3) Highlight "Vanguard: Sloth of Heroes" and click [Remove]
I can already anticipate the counter arguement. You might think that if I want to see sandbox design succeed I should support VG. Not quite. I want to ensure that the blame is laid where it is most accurate, that being poor business decisions. Because if the poor business decisions are not highlighted, sandbox will become the scapegoat (like SWG). My greatest fear is that VG will have in its near future an NGE style revamp in an attempt to recoup their losses. In this case, yes, I would rather have had Brad pull the plug on VG.
Nope, I'm not really interested in whether it's a Sandbox game or whether you should want Sandboxes to succeed. And I understand that a couple of people here would have just rather seen Vanguard not launch, and go belly-up.
What I am asking about is the large number of people who seem to be under the misconception that there was a 3rd option -- beyond folding or launching when they did -- which was "hold off launch until it is really ready." Whatever bad management decisions might have led to them being in the position they were in this January, that option was not possible. As of the first of this year (or probably sometime before), their choice was "launch now or fold."
And if we think about why people are so wildly flaming them, the basic reason is, "I am not happy with the way the game is right now." And what I don't get is how these people (not you, but many others in this forum) could imagine they'd be any happier with the game if it didn't exist. In other words, if you want gameplay element X and Y that are not (as promised) in the game, how would you be more likely to have them today, or in the near future, if the game ceased to exist? What I am questioning here is what the reaction of these people would have been if Brad had pulled the plug rather than launch an imperfect product. Would they be smiling, applauding him for having made the right decision (as some people seem to be saying here)? Or would they rather (as I very strongly suspect) be even more uber-flaming him for getting them psyched about a game that then became vaporware?
YES, with their budget and timeline the game should be more finished. But that does not change the fact that in January, it was launch or die. You can fantasize all the "what if" scenarios you want, but that was the reality. And for people who would like to see Vanguard's idea eventually reach fruiting completely (such as myself -- and I fully admit they are not even close to it yet), I prefer that they at least launched and tried, than just gave up and folded. Because there is nothing else out there or on the horizon that I see, with even remotely the sorts of features that I like which Vanguard either has, or will soon (hopefully) get.
Yes, I'm paying to sort of do late beta. I'll admit it... and I have the money to do it so it is no big deal. They are nowhere near done, but I prefer playing it as it is now, to never having played it at all.
And so what I am asking people is not whether the management sucked (clearly, it did). But rather, are you all REALLY truly saying you'd prefer it had just folded than launched, and are you really being honest with yourselves that you would have flamed Sigil any less for that decision?
Comments
I'll tell you a secret about human beings Brad:
People will generally and genuinely forgive you for screwing them over if you, 1) Admit it, and 2) Make real amends for it. There's no middle ground here.
In short, give me my money back for Vanguard, and I might consider playing the game in six months to a year after you've finished it.
Let's look at both sets. These are the Minimum:
Windows 2000/XP
2.4Ghz Intel Processor or 2400+ or higher model AMD processor
512MB RAM
100% DirectX 9.0c compatible computer. 100% DirectX compatible keyboard or input device. Vertex and Pixel shader 2.0 compatible hardware with 128MB of texture memory.
100% DirectX compatible sound card
56k+ Internet Connection
16X Speed DVD-ROM
20Gigabytes Hard Drive Space
Can you honestly read those Minimum specs and tell me that anyone who is standing in Best Buy reading the box and thinking of buying the game, and whose system meets these requirements would be able to run Vanguard at the Balanced setting, or even at Highest Performance? No, they couldn't. They'd barely be able to run it at all.
These are the Recommended specs:
Windows 2000/XP/Vista
Processor 3.0Ghz Intel or 3500+ AMD processor
2GB RAM
100% DirectX 9.0c compatible computer. 100% DirectX compatible keyboard or input device. Vertex and Pixel shader 2.0 compatible hardware with 256MB of texture memory.
DirectSound compatible audio hardware
Broadband Internet Connection
16X Speed DVD-ROM
20Gigabytes Hard Drive Space
Nowhere in these Recommended specs does it make any mention of needing 3GB or more of RAM, dual core processors, or 7950GT or higher nVidia (or comparable ATI brand) graphics cards in order to play anywhere near the highest settings of the game. There's also no mention of needing to tweak your .ini files and jumping through a bunch of other hoops in order to squeeze out better performance, since even a system that exceeds these specs is still going to have problems with the game.
None of this is just about frame rates. It's about the general performance of the game based on its advertised requirements.
Blaming an impulse buyer for not researching the game for days and weeks is bogus, just because most people will end up seeing what is on the box and comparing it to what they have. If they have better, they will automatically assume the game will work as intended, since, you know, it should.
From Teala's original post:
We also had the switch from MSFT to SOE which slowed us down and caused us to start beta too early.
From SOE & Sigil's original press release regarding the transfer of Vanguard from MGS to Sigil & SOE:
May 5, 2006 – Carlsbad & San Diego, CA – Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that Sigil is working with Microsoft Game Studios on an arrangement to acquire the rights to its highly anticipated massively multiplayer online (MMO) game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.
From my email inbox:
I haven't bought the game, waiting a bit, bit I think what he said showed alot of character.
Most designers won't even step out, let alone atep out and assume responsibility publicly for flaws.
And if I were a VG player I would be encouraged by his commitment to the perfection of his game.. you know he wants it done right, and will make it that way.
However the difference here is that a cinema film, dvd or other tv broadcast material will normally run for eaxample at a constant / consistent 25-30 fps and never fluctuate by more than a frame or so due to picture and processing conditions.
Obviously the world of computer games is vastly different in that say for example a new game you buy averages 45fps on your hardware.
Your eye obviously cannot notice the additional frames because it is above the threshhold for human sight. However your hardware and indeed your computer system does notice this and in times of peak processing loading and for example file paging and cacheing this Frames per second rate will take a hit and reduce by say for example 10 frames to 35fps, or even 25fps. That is absolutely fine however because this is still in the limits of a smooth visible play experience.
Vanguard frame rates however fluctuate wildly due to unoptimizations at code and engine level...i have posted on this in a different thread here. There are many examples of peoples hardware matching the reccomended specifications on Vanguards packaging and them recieving an average frame rate in the wilderness of around 30fps. This is all well and good but as soon as the engine increases the processing load in circumstances of Grouping, Raiding and of course moving into areas with a higher compression of models and animation the Frames of the application take a turn for the sub 18fps mark and that is where the human eye and indeed the games player begins to see impacted visual performance.
Games that can run in the average of a 40 - 60 frames per second boundry are not necessarily a bad thing because even as the game demands more processing and cacheing operations depending on the action in the game the additional frames can be lost without noticable impact.
Because of vanguards unoptimization on multiple hardware platforms it doesnt operate at very high framerates, so when the engine does demand more at peak play points, performance visibly takes a hit and the play experience suffers.
The two are not really comparable.
Regards
Mag
While I won't say it was the worst mmo ever, it did pretty much suck at release. I have heard its gotten somewhat better, but adding in some solo content isn't enough to bring me back to that game. It is only one of two games that I ever quit before the end of my free month. The other was Eve (lasted about 4 hours in that game).
DDO is the reason I am playing VG and will not touch LOTRO (Turbine).
"Suddenly"? Did I write that somewhere?
Don't read into my post through your angry eyes and add bits to it, he seems a developer dedicated to his vision, from all I've read that he's written along the way he is serious about making it happen, eventually.
The opposite would be that he isn't going to put any more work into it, doesn't care if it sucks, and doesn't realize he has made mistakes... I didn't get that impression.
So calm down, or at least direct your madness elsewhere, I'm just trying to point out the good aspects everyone tends to miss.. people get pished if the devs say nothing and here people get pished when they do.. can't win either way.
Regardless, I'm not paying for this, it doesn't bother me.. and if you are paying than you either enjoy it enough to validate the measly 50 cents a day or you are a fool who likes wasting money just so you can get all riled about about how you got 'taken'.
Just stop until it's ready.
with the assumption
*snip*
There's that pesky word again.
How does that saying go? Oh, yeah. Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
with the assumption
*snip*
There's that pesky word again.
How does that saying go? Oh, yeah. Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
I always heard when you assume you make an ass out of you and me.
That being said, in dealing with contract law, there is an implicit assumption (yep, there it is) that a good or service will perform as a "reasonable" person would expect.
If I buy a car, it should drive. If I buy a loaf of bread it should be edible and so on.
Companies for a while have been getting away with putting retarded specs on games and everyone just shrugs it off and keeps going.
As for Brad's statement:
I saw it as probably some of the whining he's been doing to the investors. He probably poorly managed or delegated management to others that didn't properly manage time.
Project management of around 100+ people working in diverse departments can become almost impossible to handle. Remember, he's got art people & programmers & executives (to make him feel more important) & writers & UI people & music people & marketing & legal and so forth.
It is actually pretty damned hard, without practice, to keep your focus on all of them. A lot of times, without proper direction, most people slack off. They miss target dates.
We also don't know if he can even program. (I don't remember this being said.) If he can't program, and he's not an artist, then he has additional problems because he can be bullshitted about delays. That'll cost more money and time.
Add even more if he's been a pompous ass and let his team know it. They'll snicker as they shove another paycheck in their pockets.
In a freakin multi-path project the art department might not get their stuff on time, leaving the coders hanging until they figure out the scale was wrong for a building or something. Then they have to go back and fix it.
Also, bad pre-planning can eat up loads of time. I've seen project managers show up with a single page of notes for a huge project. They have no idea what they're trying to do or how to plan. The underpants gnome thing. Vanguard smells like gnomish underpants to me.
The writers have to be on the ball VERY early because the quests and lore have to be in to account for any problems in their "vision" that slaps the developers upside the head. (I have actually been on both sides of the fence on a smaller scale as well as managed, so I can understand.)
And that money doesn't grow on trees. If "the man" was too focused on being "the man" and not cracking the whip, you would be surprised how fast a company can go through $30m.
With a hundred people and 4 years, AND starting with an engine already somewhat in place, we can suspect that the most efficient work methods weren't used. Especially considering the product produced.
Anyway, I could go on about that.
So, on one hand, it is an enormously stressful job to manage that many diverse groups in a big project.
On the other hand, I haven't seen any creativity or clever moves yet. Everything in both EQ1 and Vanguard has been lifted from somewhere else.
Vanguard would be a pleasant-but-average game if it weren't for obviously poor design & art choices and an unfinished product (whatever the cause). It is a pity that it won't do very well if experience is any teacher. I don't think they'll go under though.
Eh, I've heard the ass out you one before too, but I like mine better. It's from Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels, so it may be a Brit thing.
As for reasonable, who gets to define reasonable? Am I reasonable? Certainly not. I'm a damned lunatic.
Being a non law person, I've no idea if that's a new or old law, but if it is an old(er) law, then it needs to be rewritten to take software and computers in general into account.
Say person A and B go to the computer store, and buy a computer. They both buy the same computer. And they both buy a copy of the newly released game Box With Shiney Pictures. They each go home, and set up their respective pcs, and install BWSP. Person A starts up the game, and is on his merry way with nary a hiccup. Person B, however, is a bit more computer savvy than A, and strips out a bunch of stuff he feels is just needlessly taking up space on his new pc. Then he proceeds to download some graphics card driver from Guru3d that was released by some yahoo in France, that supposedly optimized the default driver to give 50% better framerate. B, done mucking about, tries to start BWSP, which freaks out, causing his monitor to explode, and kill his pet Macaw, Petey, who happened to be perched nearby.
Now. Who do we blame for the dead macaw? The software developer/publisher? The yahoo from France? B himself, for removing who knows what from his prebuilt pc, and using drivers of questionable origin? Perhaps the monitor manufacturer? Or maybe it was just a defective macaw?
Yeah, it's a bit over the top, but it illustrates a point.
I have a copy of Fable: The Lost Chapters. I cannot successfully install it. I meet the specs on the box, and then some. Damn POS Lionhead devs... Nope, turns out it's a problem with Win XP SP2, it sets some sort of security flag, which prevents the installer from completing. Turns out it's not just a problem with Fable, also.
While the recommended and minimum specs are nice as a guideline, they're totally useless, really, as there is no way the devs can take into account every possible permutation of hardware and drivers any potential customer might have. All they are is the bare minimum of system that should be able to install and start the game.
Hell, pcs are finicky enough that in the Person A & B example above, B could have left his machine stock, and still gotten a different result from A.
The parts about BMQ not being a very good manager, I agree with since I've said mostly the same thing before.
Given the Lead responsible for adding item decay talked him into adding it, despite the pretty much universal outcry against it, I'd say it's part wishy washiness, part incompetence, and part design by committee causing the design focus to try and go in 10 different directions at once.
"Suddenly"? Did I write that somewhere?
Don't read into my post through your angry eyes and add bits to it, he seems a developer dedicated to his vision, from all I've read that he's written along the way he is serious about making it happen, eventually.
The opposite would be that he isn't going to put any more work into it, doesn't care if it sucks, and doesn't realize he has made mistakes... I didn't get that impression.
So calm down, or at least direct your madness elsewhere, I'm just trying to point out the good aspects everyone tends to miss.. people get pished if the devs say nothing and here people get pished when they do.. can't win either way.
Regardless, I'm not paying for this, it doesn't bother me.. and if you are paying than you either enjoy it enough to validate the measly 50 cents a day or you are a fool who likes wasting money just so you can get all riled about about how you got 'taken'.
Just stop until it's ready.
I'm not angry, nor have I ever been angry about Vanguard. It's a game, and nothing more. And I knew in beta that it wasn't worth paying for, but I still gave the released game a chance in a free trial after I upgraded my system. I've yet to give Sigil a dime for VG, and probably never will, unless some serious overhauls of both the game environment and the gameplay take place.
But the initial point still stands-- if they haven't gotten anywhere near perfection after five years and millions spent, what is going to turn that around now? Just because Brad said something, and gave the impression that he wants perfection in his game? If he wanted it, he would have found a way to get it when it was in development and before it was ever released. Trying to make any sort of excuses for the state of the game now, including blaming his customers for not having the uber-l33t rigs he thinks they need to run the game, is just bogus.
Since we're on the topic of System Requirements, and all. Here's a current story. Well, it's about 2 minutes old now.
So I was poking around in Steam, and saw the demo for http://www.silverfall-game.com was available. So I grab it. Here's the system reqs:
System Requirements
Minimum:
Windows® XP
Intel Pentium 4 2.8 Ghz or AMD Athlon XP +2800 higher
512 MB RAM
ATI Radeon 9800 256MB VRAM or Nvidia 6600 GT with 256 MB of VRAM or better
DirectX version 9.0c-compatible sound card
DirectX® 9.0c
Network Interface (only for multiplayer games)
10 GB available HD space
Recommended:
Intel Pentium 4 3 Ghz or AMD Athlon XP +3000
1 GB RAM
256MB ATI Radeon X850 or Nvidia GeForce 6800GT
I figure I'm golden, and once it finishes download, go to start the demo. Only to be greeted with a window with an error msg saying that PhysX engine init failed because I don't have PhysX driver 2.4.4 installed.
Didn't see anything requiring a PhysX card, or drivers. I don't have a PhysX card, as I think it's a rediculous waste of money for what it provides.
But I dutifully downloaded the needed driver, and now there is a hawt half-nekkid elf chicky on my monitor that looks sorta like a young Jamie Lee Curtis. I'm guessing they needed the PhysX for the advanced boobie jiggling physics algorithm.
So much for system requirements.
While I won't say it was the worst mmo ever, it did pretty much suck at release. I have heard its gotten somewhat better, but adding in some solo content isn't enough to bring me back to that game. It is only one of two games that I ever quit before the end of my free month. The other was Eve (lasted about 4 hours in that game).
DDO is the reason I am playing VG and will not touch LOTRO (Turbine).
Dude the reason your not playing DDo , hehe nvm ..... Think brad needs to eat a huge bowl of STFU . and then take a sip of STFD . Cause he acts like he's been making games for 30 years, dude , it is your second game in the mass market EVER !. You suck at making games becuase your brain doesn't click with current technoloy trends and what gamers want. Your subs will dip by summer to 65,000 by christmas the game will be crutched along and by next summer , server will migrate.I like pie !
If he allowed an idiotic design committee to do stupid stuff, then he is still incompetent because he is the leader and should've derailed any nonsense earlier. That's why he's the CEO.
When he decided to be CEO, he decided to step up and be a leader. The failure of the corporation is his fault.
Blaming anyone other than himself for a horrible (but not catastrophic) launch or trying to make excuses is flatly wrong. You can be sure that if the launch went well, themanthemanthemantheman'd have' been shouting from the rooftops about how he did everything himself and fought bears with his looseleaf notebook.
He whiffed, so now he's using the little-kid's excuse: "But.. but... johnny wets the bed everynight. I only did it on 3 days last week!"
No excuses when you're CEO.
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Physics cards will go the way of the "killer nic" and such. That is to say they're junk and will fade away soon enough.
AMD is considering, from what I've read, installing a physics subset in its processors or chipset. I hope not.
All of the other physics engines btw (I think there are 4 or 5 major ones) do not use a stupid add on card.
Rag doll physics has its place, say in Carmageddon or a similar game. Martial arts games too probably. And of course... CoH/CoV. It is hilarious to knock some poor soul around and see what funny positions they fall in. Totally unrealistic, but fun.
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Physics cards will go the way of the "killer nic" and such. That is to say they're junk and will fade away soon enough.
AMD is considering, from what I've read, installing a physics subset in its processors or chipset. I hope not.
All of the other physics engines btw (I think there are 4 or 5 major ones) do not use a stupid add on card.
Rag doll physics has its place, say in Carmageddon or a similar game. Martial arts games too probably. And of course... CoH/CoV. It is hilarious to knock some poor soul around and see what funny positions they fall in. Totally unrealistic, but fun.
The ragdoll physics is nothing when it comes to the use of physics in City of Heroes/Villains; with an actual PPU you're able to crank up a lot of physics sliders that enhance the game. For an old, low-budget game, it's pretty incredible; oh how often I hold up my team hovering close to the ground in circles seeing how much debris I can pick up from the scrap of some giant robot we wasted.
Anyway, neither of you should think badly of PPUs. At least not when it comes to software vendors like Cryptic who implement the use of them in their game without hindering those without it at all. It's completely optional, not a requirement. Complain when an MMO is released that requires it (and I think NetDevil is working on one, with a destructible environment.)
As for the complaining about Silverfall...you downloaded a demo. Complain when the released product is absent of an installation step to set you up with the appropriate drivers.
Even with that comparison made, you found in 20 minutes apparently the correct drivers you needed to play. Where's my free 3-step installation software that fixes Vanguard?
Well, I dunno nothin' bout nothin' when it comes to physics cards, other than they are meant to offload the physics computations from the cpu/gpu, but really, that whole ragdoll physics thing seems a bit overblown to me. It looks more fake than when the npcs would just fall down dead. However, it seems you just need the driver package for PhysX, not the actual card.
I hope it doesn't become the norm, as I spend enough money on hardware without needing to buy a bloody physics card that adds nothing whatsoever to the game from my viewpoint.
It is an interesting game, though. Well, if you're into the whole Diablo-esque hack and slash thing. Graphics have that cell shaded comic book look going on. Not sure if I like it or not.
Physics cards will go the way of the "killer nic" and such. That is to say they're junk and will fade away soon enough.
AMD is considering, from what I've read, installing a physics subset in its processors or chipset. I hope not.
All of the other physics engines btw (I think there are 4 or 5 major ones) do not use a stupid add on card.
Rag doll physics has its place, say in Carmageddon or a similar game. Martial arts games too probably. And of course... CoH/CoV. It is hilarious to knock some poor soul around and see what funny positions they fall in. Totally unrealistic, but fun.
The ragdoll physics is nothing when it comes to the use of physics in City of Heroes/Villains; with an actual PPU you're able to crank up a lot of physics sliders that enhance the game. For an old, low-budget game, it's pretty incredible; oh how often I hold up my team hovering close to the ground in circles seeing how much debris I can pick up from the scrap of some giant robot we wasted.
Anyway, neither of you should think badly of PPUs. At least not when it comes to software vendors like Cryptic who implement the use of them in their game without hindering those without it at all. It's completely optional, not a requirement. Complain when an MMO is released that requires it (and I think NetDevil is working on one, with a destructible environment.)
I have no problem with software physics as long as it's implemented with some sort of reason. I dislike and won't use hardware PPUs and I didn't think they were necessary.
As for the complaining about Silverfall...you downloaded a demo. Complain when the released product is absent of an installation step to set you up with the appropriate drivers.
Well, what was weird is they didn't include the physics client evidently in the demo install. That is going to confuse a lot of people.
Even with that comparison made, you found in 20 minutes apparently the correct drivers you needed to play. Where's my free 3-step installation software that fixes Vanguard?
1) Start -> Settings --> Control Panel --> Add or Remove Programs
2) Wait while the list is propagated.
3) Highlight "Vanguard: Sloth of Heroes" and click [Remove]
Nope, I'm not really interested in whether it's a Sandbox game or whether you should want Sandboxes to succeed. And I understand that a couple of people here would have just rather seen Vanguard not launch, and go belly-up.
What I am asking about is the large number of people who seem to be under the misconception that there was a 3rd option -- beyond folding or launching when they did -- which was "hold off launch until it is really ready." Whatever bad management decisions might have led to them being in the position they were in this January, that option was not possible. As of the first of this year (or probably sometime before), their choice was "launch now or fold."
And if we think about why people are so wildly flaming them, the basic reason is, "I am not happy with the way the game is right now." And what I don't get is how these people (not you, but many others in this forum) could imagine they'd be any happier with the game if it didn't exist. In other words, if you want gameplay element X and Y that are not (as promised) in the game, how would you be more likely to have them today, or in the near future, if the game ceased to exist? What I am questioning here is what the reaction of these people would have been if Brad had pulled the plug rather than launch an imperfect product. Would they be smiling, applauding him for having made the right decision (as some people seem to be saying here)? Or would they rather (as I very strongly suspect) be even more uber-flaming him for getting them psyched about a game that then became vaporware?
YES, with their budget and timeline the game should be more finished. But that does not change the fact that in January, it was launch or die. You can fantasize all the "what if" scenarios you want, but that was the reality. And for people who would like to see Vanguard's idea eventually reach fruiting completely (such as myself -- and I fully admit they are not even close to it yet), I prefer that they at least launched and tried, than just gave up and folded. Because there is nothing else out there or on the horizon that I see, with even remotely the sorts of features that I like which Vanguard either has, or will soon (hopefully) get.
Yes, I'm paying to sort of do late beta. I'll admit it... and I have the money to do it so it is no big deal. They are nowhere near done, but I prefer playing it as it is now, to never having played it at all.
And so what I am asking people is not whether the management sucked (clearly, it did). But rather, are you all REALLY truly saying you'd prefer it had just folded than launched, and are you really being honest with yourselves that you would have flamed Sigil any less for that decision?
C