Let's assume Vanguard isn't dead. Let's assume Sigil somehow manages to turn things around and makes the game a success and gets 500k subscribers. What would that do to the MMORPG industry? It would show all the MMORPG developers that they can release a buggy, unstable game and get players to fork over their hard-earned money to pay for months of beta-testing because developers made enormous blunders in their managing, scheduling and planning. Instead of being a LESSON to other gaming companies about how NOT to treat their player market, Vanguard (if it becomes successful) will show developers that they can walk all over their customers and those customers will still come crawling back them. It doesn't matter whether Sony or Sigil manages to make Vanguard a fun, stable game, the MMORPG industry can only be damaged if these kinds of business practices are allowed a successful outcome. The only way to stop them is by showing the developers that players will not stand for them, and our only vote is with our subscriptions.
So what you're saying is that a software company should just drop thier project entirely if things shouldn't go thier way? Instead of releaseing with what they have, they should just through it all away?
What you're saying is that if a situation should arise that is completely outt of the develpers hands; regardless of how they got thier to begin with, the dev. company should just thorugh the money they've spent already away, never even attemp to recoup some of the thier loses, and pay back at least some thier debt. In stead of releaseing ahead of schedule when they are out of money they should simply give up, so that no one ever gets to even play the game they dedicated years of thier life to?
Sounds like a sound business decision to me. I'm sure you would make a company loads of money with practises like that.
I think instead he is saying that he doesn't care what the developers do but that he would rather pay to play a complete game. I know that Brad's big excuse is that an MMORPG is never "finished" but there is a big difference between WOW and LOTRs releasing fairly polished and stable compared to Vanguard who released with only half a continent finished for the Orcs/Goblins and Half Elves or Star Wars Galaxies releasing without all the skills needed to play a Smuggler for instance.
The idea of a massive sandbox game really does appeal to me personally but unfortunately most people who try to build one gets in over there heads and releases two-four continent areas that are "dead" and missing the life and content needed to let players wander freely and pick and choose their activities at will.
The new trend will be smaller worlds at release with more polish and flash and optimization. This will garner more subscribers and better reviews and then they can go in and add more races and classes and continents and content to a stable game as opposed to following the old trend of big empty buggy worlds with little content or class balance that play "ping-pong patch" weekly. It's very hard to fix 100 problems like class balance and lack of content and bugs with your final product and at the same time try to prepare a new expansion with new problems to address.
So let's say you have a game, and you've run out of money to pay your employees. What do you do if you can't get more money, and the game is in a state that at least a good portion of it is playable? VG didn't release missing "most" of it's content, it released missing "some" of it's content.
Comparing EQ to DAOC isn't fair..the games were aimed at two different audiences, neither really stole alot of players from the other. As to the late rise of EQ , much had to do with waiting for people to get broadband access and better graphics cards for their computers, both new concepts back in EQ's early days. And they really didn't have a lot of choices back then...
Rubbish, a lot of EQ1 fans went to DAOC when it was released.
I have to agree with this. DAOC released a short time before Luclin came out...if I remember correctly. Luclin and DAOC came out at the end of 2001 around the same time. I left to try DAOC. Many did because DAOC was suppose to be the next EQ, the EQ killer. After a friend and I played our characters up to level 25 or 30..I forget now exactly but I know it was in the late 20s, to maybe 30, we discovered how much content was lacking in DAOC. We did not care for the forced realm to realm PVP since there was not any content we could find for our levels. We both quit, and I went back to EQ.
Originally posted by Lidane Originally posted by metalcore Rubbish, a lot of EQ1 fans went to DAOC when it was released.
Yes. And most of them were back in EQ a few months later. EverQuest lost a fair number of its players when both EQ2 and World of Warcraft launched. People went to one game or the other.
And AC1 as well.
And EQ1 had to break into the market with a product where very few were prepared to pay for monthly at the time and yet it succeeded.
Whether VG achieves the same, we will have to wait and see.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
So let's say you have a game, and you've run out of money to pay your employees. What do you do if you can't get more money, and the game is in a state that at least a good portion of it is playable? VG didn't release missing "most" of it's content, it released missing "some" of it's content. So what would you do in that situations?
You sell your game to the highest bidder, allowing that company to work with your creditors to absorb any and all debts, letting them pay your employees, and let them try to keep the game running. The only other option would be to declare bankruptcy, and limp along while you restructure your debts, trying desperately to keep from shutting down for good.
How much or how little they didn't release isn't the point if they can't pay their bills. Ultimately, being able to keep the lights on and the doors open has to come first. And if that means selling the game you've worked on for many years, then so be it.
The problem to me is that Vanguard in my eyes, doesn't deserve to live. It was half thrown together and the art style is horrible.
I am dead serious when I say that I would not play this game for free.
So you believe that no one should be able to play a game because you don't like it?
If It worked like that for me, then no one would have played Resident Evil or Tomb Raider. Two games I couldn't stand.
Oops, you must not have read where I said "in my eyes"... I understand that I do not speak for the vast majority.... I'll let the falling subscriptions tell you more of the majority by shrinking VSOH market shares.... But nice of you to make a generalization on me based on a fact that didn't exist.
Rubbish, a lot of EQ1 fans went to DAOC when it was released.
EverQuest lost a fair number of its players when both EQ2 and World of Warcraft launched. People went to one game or the other.
Gates of Discord hurt EQ more than WOW and EQ2 did. Making an expansion where content was tuned for level 70 characters when the level cap was still 65 was bad.
The problem to me is that Vanguard in my eyes, doesn't deserve to live. It was half thrown together and the art style is horrible.
I am dead serious when I say that I would not play this game for free.
So you believe that no one should be able to play a game because you don't like it?
If It worked like that for me, then no one would have played Resident Evil or Tomb Raider. Two games I couldn't stand.
Oops, you must not have read where I said "in my eyes"... I understand that I do not speak for the vast majority.... I'll let the falling subscriptions tell you more of the majority by shrinking VSOH market shares.... But nice of you to make a generalization on me based on a fact that didn't exist.
Ok, so "in your eyes" you believe that no one should be able to play a ame because you don't like it.
Your comment is: doesn't deserve to live; wich could only be made as an opinion. An opinion is an "in my eyes" sort of thing.
Rubbish, a lot of EQ1 fans went to DAOC when it was released.
EverQuest lost a fair number of its players when both EQ2 and World of Warcraft launched. People went to one game or the other.
Gates of Discord hurt EQ more than WOW and EQ2 did. Making an expansion where content was tuned for level 70 characters when the level cap was still 65 was bad.
I wouldn't know. I left the year before, when Ykesha launched. Heh.
From what I understand, their subs peaked right around the time GoD launched, then they declined sharply, but since I was already in the City of Heroes beta by then, I didn't pay much attention.
The problem to me is that Vanguard in my eyes, doesn't deserve to live. It was half thrown together and the art style is horrible.
I am dead serious when I say that I would not play this game for free.
So you believe that no one should be able to play a game because you don't like it?
If It worked like that for me, then no one would have played Resident Evil or Tomb Raider. Two games I couldn't stand.
Oops, you must not have read where I said "in my eyes"... I understand that I do not speak for the vast majority.... I'll let the falling subscriptions tell you more of the majority by shrinking VSOH market shares.... But nice of you to make a generalization on me based on a fact that didn't exist.
Ok, so "in your eyes" you believe that no one should be able to play a ame because you don't like it.
Your comment is: doesn't deserve to live; wich could only be made as an opinion. An opinion is an "in my eyes" sort of thing.
Oh, well I suppose since reality is perception and in your reality you think I am trying to kill your holy game... In my eyes, if you want to worship a turd, I will let you as long as I dont have to smell it...
In my eyes, is in my perfect reality... Vanguard wouldn't exist because it lacks merit to do so. If I were in a place of power, I would discontinue to product or sell it off... Not so much different than SIGIL will be doing...
So let's say you have a game, and you've run out of money to pay your employees. What do you do if you can't get more money, and the game is in a state that at least a good portion of it is playable? VG didn't release missing "most" of it's content, it released missing "some" of it's content. So what would you do in that situations?
You sell your game to the highest bidder, allowing that company to work with your creditors to absorb any and all debts, letting them pay your employees, and let them try to keep the game running. The only other option would be to declare bankruptcy, and limp along while you restructure your debts, trying desperately to keep from shutting down for good.
How much or how little they didn't release isn't the point if they can't pay their bills. Ultimately, being able to keep the lights on and the doors open has to come first. And if that means selling the game you've worked on for many years, then so be it.
Who's to say that the company they that buys it sticks with what you set out to do. They could have changed the game entirely based on what they though would be good.
No thanks, I'd prefer to play the game that the original devs made, and not one that was sold so that an individual could make money and bounce. Not to mention if they sold, they would've took more heat as Brad would have been accused of building hype around a game that he never intented to make.
Sorry, no thanks. I'm happier playing now. I'm sorry that you're not.
yep its dead. empty = dead when sony owns the game even more will leave.
Empty?! OMG! Are you serious? You don't play the game then do you. I was playing today, yes during regualr peoples hours, and there were so many stinking players on in the area I was in that I ahd to turn my game rigs settings down and I rarely have lag like that! It comes from one thing - lots of other players in close proximity to my character! I was out in the stinking deserts of Qalia and people were fighting over MOBS! Yes they were bickering over MOBS because there was so many people trying to complete these quest. I was like so many people say this game is dead and yet if this is what a dead game looks like god forbid what a live one must be like I'd need a Cray super computer to run it.
By the way I just joined a guild named Sha Shatar on the Florendyl sever and they have like 240+ members! Today I watched as they added another half a dozen! Yes 240+ members in this guild! I ahven't seen numbers like that since SWG pre-NGE! Or Planetside for that matter. If Vanguard is dead explain how this guild is this big and still growing?
I will predict that this game will be hitting 200k to 300k come this time next year. If they add all the things they say they are going to add - jousting! Ship to Ship combat. The free roaming flying mounts. The new landmass. More solo content. Raid content(all ready in testing by the way) and etc, etc....Vanguard will be a seriously great game.
While I wish vanguard will have more subscribers, With age of conan and warhammer online comming its highly unlikely vanguard will recover.
Originally posted by Vanguarde Originally posted by Teala Originally posted by Carl132p yep its dead. empty = dead when sony owns the game even more will leave.
Empty?! OMG! Are you serious? You don't play the game then do you. I was playing today, yes during regualr peoples hours, and there were so many stinking players on in the area I was in that I ahd to turn my game rigs settings down and I rarely have lag like that! It comes from one thing - lots of other players in close proximity to my character! I was out in the stinking deserts of Qalia and people were fighting over MOBS! Yes they were bickering over MOBS because there was so many people trying to complete these quest. I was like so many people say this game is dead and yet if this is what a dead game looks like god forbid what a live one must be like I'd need a Cray super computer to run it. By the way I just joined a guild named Sha Shatar on the Florendyl sever and they have like 240+ members! Today I watched as they added another half a dozen! Yes 240+ members in this guild! I ahven't seen numbers like that since SWG pre-NGE! Or Planetside for that matter. If Vanguard is dead explain how this guild is this big and still growing? I will predict that this game will be hitting 200k to 300k come this time next year. If they add all the things they say they are going to add - jousting! Ship to Ship combat. The free roaming flying mounts. The new landmass. More solo content. Raid content(all ready in testing by the way) and etc, etc....Vanguard will be a seriously great game.
While I wish vanguard will have more subscribers, With age of conan and warhammer online comming its highly unlikely vanguard will recover.
Whilst not wanting to start another arguement, Warhammer is on its third attempt to get published, god knows if it even will. AoC will more likely effect LOTR than VG unless levelling in AoC is hard work, then hardcore VG fans will leave.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
yep its dead. empty = dead when sony owns the game even more will leave.
Empty?! OMG! Are you serious? You don't play the game then do you. I was playing today, yes during regualr peoples hours, and there were so many stinking players on in the area I was in that I ahd to turn my game rigs settings down and I rarely have lag like that! It comes from one thing - lots of other players in close proximity to my character! I was out in the stinking deserts of Qalia and people were fighting over MOBS! Yes they were bickering over MOBS because there was so many people trying to complete these quest. I was like so many people say this game is dead and yet if this is what a dead game looks like god forbid what a live one must be like I'd need a Cray super computer to run it.
By the way I just joined a guild named Sha Shatar on the Florendyl sever and they have like 240+ members! Today I watched as they added another half a dozen! Yes 240+ members in this guild! I ahven't seen numbers like that since SWG pre-NGE! Or Planetside for that matter. If Vanguard is dead explain how this guild is this big and still growing?
I will predict that this game will be hitting 200k to 300k come this time next year. If they add all the things they say they are going to add - jousting! Ship to Ship combat. The free roaming flying mounts. The new landmass. More solo content. Raid content(all ready in testing by the way) and etc, etc....Vanguard will be a seriously great game.
While I wish vanguard will have more subscribers, With age of conan and warhammer online comming its highly unlikely vanguard will recover.
Or people might upgrade thier PC's to play AoC, at wich time they would then be able to play VG much better, and might give the game a shot then.
AoC may help VG just because at that time hardware will be cheaper and more people may have upgraded by then.
We're at that juncture in PC hardware, were people are going to HAVE to start upgrading in the coming months to keep up with some of the new games that come out, utilizing more advanced software.
Most companies don't run out of money. CoH didn't.
DAoC had a crappy release I believe. Dunno, someone familliar with DAoC wanna verify?
Turbine also did DDO online. Not exactly a popular game.
WoW had it's problems, and didn't release early. In fact over the coarse of 2 years I've ended up with 2 or 3 months worth of free time because the game wasn't playable at times. Never had a problem playing VG personally, although I do understand that some with older gen hardware did. VG has also improved over the course of 4 months.
I'm a customer and I'm not "paying a price". Unless you mean a monthly fee to play a playable game that I enjoy; then yes, I'm paying the price.
Some of their games have had issues. That's expected when it's their 2-3rd game that they are attempting to do something different from the ordinary. Vanguard was no rocket science. They used a pre-made engine. They had a HUGGGEEE budget. They had tons of experience. Yet it flopped. Improved over 4 months? NO ONE CARES. I've already explained the rule of FIRST IMPRESSION.
Game is stable to me. I wouldn't have any clue about testing, because I wasn't involved in it. But yeah, games stable for me.
Awesome, you're a lucky one then. Even on my high end powerful machine this POS game stuttered or flat out locked up. I ran many many tests and it leaks. BADLY. This probably improved over those 4 months as you said, but as I said. FIRST IMPRESSION.
This isn't launch. Games been out 4 months. When was the last time you played? I personally have been fortunate enogh to not have run into sever bugs. What bugs were severe? I'm not familliar with any game breaking bugs in VG. I know there were some annoying ones, but none that made the game unplayable that I was aware of.
WTF level are you do? My shaman hit lvl40 and I quit then. I played for 2 months and that was that. Nothing but broken quests or annoying ass bugs such as team disconnecting and several other things. Falling thought the arena. Arena bugging and having to wait for server restart to fix it. There's many more.. the list goes on.. early levels you don't notice to many, but they are there. High end is what kills it. We also don't care if it's 4 months out. I'll repeat: FIRST IMPRESSION.
Lord of the Rings didn't run out of money either. They weren't forced to release early to keep the game alive. Again your business sence is a little off here. Software companies don't want to have crappy starts, they want to start strong. No software company is going to release early and lose a lot of potential costumers, they would be losing a lot of money. It's more economical to release on time, pollished, and ready to go. VG's impact on the industry is going to be one of caution. Other up coming, and Sigil itself is an up and coming company itself, will learn from VG and make sure they are in a good shape to continue developement if at all possible. Releasing early is a last resort kind of thing, not a business tactic to make more money.
STFU. I do NOT want to hear sympathy to a dumbass company that had 30 MILLION bucks in funding. Sigil had more then enough cash WAAAY MORE then enough. 1) Their advertisments sucked.. not even a TV ad. 2) They bought a pre-made engine. How could they have spent a lot of money on those? They didn't. So wtf did that money go to? Makes me truely wonder. Brad had his chance, but he's to stupid to run a company. It showed in EQ1 when he almost drove it into the ground with his retarded vision. Luckly SOE picked it up. His experience is limited in this industry. He should have stuck to games like pacman.
They left MS, because MS dumped them for ALWAYS being behind schedule AND brad is a little bitch who didn't want a windows explusive game. LOTRO is windows exclusive. It dominated VGs launch. Who the crap plays games on a MAC? Not a very smart person. Ta hell with MAC.
If a company invests 5 or 6 years and 30 million dollars into a game, and find that they need to release or fold, they will release regardless of what happens to VG. It's the dif. between attempting to salvage an IP, and make money off it, or toss all the time and money already invested and not let the IP see the light of day. No sane company is going to simply fold up if they are at a point were they could release a game that is playable, even in a smaller then anticipated market. Something is better then nothing. You don't make money off of nothing.
They could have put the project on hold untill they had more funding. Simple as that. Loans do exist you know. They would have been better off putting it aside for the time being untill it can be properly fixed. This FIRST IMPRESSION they gave was horrid. They turned a lot of people away AND tarnished their name for good.
Major point: FIRST IMPRESSION.
Stop living in a fantasy world. The game sucks. The majority thinks it sucks. Go away already. You defend it. Then you get attacked by 3+ people. You're out numbered and might as well go play your crummy game then waste time here.
Who's to say that the company they that buys it sticks with what you set out to do. They could have changed the game entirely based on what they though would be good.
Why not? That's precisely what SOE did to EverQuest after Brad left. They added all sorts of things to the game, and their subscriptions ended up increasing over time. At least until the Gates of Discord, from what I'm reading in this thread.
No thanks, I'd prefer to play the game that the original devs made, and not one that was sold so that an individual could make money and bounce. Not to mention if they sold, they would've took more heat as Brad would have been accused of building hype around a game that he never intented to make.
At some point, a CEO has to decide what is more important-- the integrity of their game, or the financial state of their company. Do they sacrifice one to save the other, or do they stubbornly stick to their guns and go down with their ship?
You'll know which one is more important to Brad and to his investors whenever SOE makes whatever announcement Smed was talking about. It's only about a week a way, I think.
Sorry, no thanks. I'm happier playing now. I'm sorry that you're not.
It's not about me. It's a pragmatic view of the business at hand here. Considering the time and money they've already spent, if they're broke, they've only got two options-- sell and hope for the best, or declare bankruptcy and ride it out for as long as possible.
That's the way these things work. Businesses either succeed, or they fail. And when they're broke, their options are severely limited.
Or people might upgrade thier PC's to play AoC, at wich time they would then be able to play VG much better, and might give the game a shot then. AoC may help VG just because at that time hardware will be cheaper and more people may have upgraded by then. We're at that juncture in PC hardware, were people are going to HAVE to start upgrading in the coming months to keep up with some of the new games that come out, utilizing more advanced software.
I have a really monster computer SLI'd 8800GTX XFX VC - 4 gigs of ram... I spared no expense on my computer gaming hobby... It didn't save Vanguard in my eyes... I really just hated the art style, player models and animations for me - were horrible.... Uninteractive, never felt as though, I was hitting anything... No reactions for being hit, lame for a so called next gen game... I didn't have any problem with lag, but it still had worse graphics than cartoony WoW.
Kyle, DAOC had a really good release... It wasn't overly buggy or broken, I seem to remember the Mythic team getting praise for this even back then... I was there for EQ's start and it was nasty...
Kyle, DAOC had a really good release... It wasn't overly buggy or broken, I seem to remember the Mythic team getting praise for this even back then... I was there for EQ's start and it was nasty...
I know I played it for 2 years. I wasn't targeting all of those MMOs in the list, but just the few he was targeting. =D
All in all. VG sucks. Don't know why people keep trying to explain why it is/isn't. VG had a bad first impression and i'm sticking to my judgement. If it tops out at 300k subs or something. I'll renounce my judgement. Untill then. It sucks. I don't even need to go into details. If people want details. Go to silkyvenom or any other fansite forums. LOL
Or people might upgrade thier PC's to play AoC, at wich time they would then be able to play VG much better, and might give the game a shot then. AoC may help VG just because at that time hardware will be cheaper and more people may have upgraded by then. We're at that juncture in PC hardware, were people are going to HAVE to start upgrading in the coming months to keep up with some of the new games that come out, utilizing more advanced software.
I have a really monster computer SLI'd 8800GTX XFX VC - 4 gigs of ram... I spared no expense on my computer gaming hobby... It didn't save Vanguard in my eyes... I really just hated the art style, player models and animations for me - were horrible.... Uninteractive, never felt as though, I was hitting anything... No reactions for being hit, lame for a so called next gen game... I didn't have any problem with lag, but it still had worse graphics than cartoony WoW.
Who's to say that the company they that buys it sticks with what you set out to do. They could have changed the game entirely based on what they though would be good.
Why not? That's precisely what SOE did to EverQuest after Brad left. They added all sorts of things to the game, and their subscriptions ended up increasing over time. At least until the Gates of Discord, from what I'm reading in this thread.
Mcquaid didn't sell anything to SoE. He didn't own anything to sell. He wa hired by Smedley to work on EQ. EQ was made from the beginning for Sony. A year after it was finished the company that Smedley was put in charge of running became SoE.
No thanks, I'd prefer to play the game that the original devs made, and not one that was sold so that an individual could make money and bounce. Not to mention if they sold, they would've took more heat as Brad would have been accused of building hype around a game that he never intented to make.
At some point, a CEO has to decide what is more important-- the integrity of their game, or the financial state of their company. Do they sacrifice one to save the other, or do they stubbornly stick to their guns and go down with their ship?
You'll know which one is more important to Brad and to his investors whenever SOE makes whatever announcement Smed was talking about. It's only about a week a way, I think.
Sometimes you have to decide as the creator what is more important. Your integrety as creator, or your desire to make a quick buck as the president of a company. Most companies that are in it for a quick buck aren't usually looked upon with much respect. Brad stuck by his product and that as an artist is something I can respect.
Sorry, no thanks. I'm happier playing now. I'm sorry that you're not.
It's not about me. It's a pragmatic view of the business at hand here. Considering the time and money they've already spent, if they're broke, they've only got two options-- sell and hope for the best, or declare bankruptcy and ride it out for as long as possible.
That's the way these things work. Businesses either succeed, or they fail. And when they're broke, their options are severely limited.
Sounds like they released and are hoping for the best.
Most companies don't run out of money. CoH didn't.
DAoC had a crappy release I believe. Dunno, someone familliar with DAoC wanna verify?
Turbine also did DDO online. Not exactly a popular game.
WoW had it's problems, and didn't release early. In fact over the coarse of 2 years I've ended up with 2 or 3 months worth of free time because the game wasn't playable at times. Never had a problem playing VG personally, although I do understand that some with older gen hardware did. VG has also improved over the course of 4 months. I'm a customer and I'm not "paying a price". Unless you mean a monthly fee to play a playable game that I enjoy; then yes, I'm paying the price. Some of their games have had issues. That's expected when it's their 2-3rd game that they are attempting to do something different from the ordinary. Vanguard was no rocket science. They used a pre-made engine. They had a HUGGGEEE budget. They had tons of experience. Yet it flopped. Improved over 4 months? NO ONE CARES. I've already explained the rule of FIRST IMPRESSION.
Game is stable to me. I wouldn't have any clue about testing, because I wasn't involved in it. But yeah, games stable for me. Awesome, you're a lucky one then. Even on my high end powerful machine this POS game stuttered or flat out locked up. I ran many many tests and it leaks. BADLY. This probably improved over those 4 months as you said, but as I said. FIRST IMPRESSION. This isn't launch. Games been out 4 months. When was the last time you played? I personally have been fortunate enogh to not have run into sever bugs. What bugs were severe? I'm not familliar with any game breaking bugs in VG. I know there were some annoying ones, but none that made the game unplayable that I was aware of. WTF level are you do? My shaman hit lvl40 and I quit then. I played for 2 months and that was that. Nothing but broken quests or annoying ass bugs such as team disconnecting and several other things. Falling thought the arena. Arena bugging and having to wait for server restart to fix it. There's many more.. the list goes on.. early levels you don't notice to many, but they are there. High end is what kills it. We also don't care if it's 4 months out. I'll repeat: FIRST IMPRESSION. Lord of the Rings didn't run out of money either. They weren't forced to release early to keep the game alive. Again your business sence is a little off here. Software companies don't want to have crappy starts, they want to start strong. No software company is going to release early and lose a lot of potential costumers, they would be losing a lot of money. It's more economical to release on time, pollished, and ready to go. VG's impact on the industry is going to be one of caution. Other up coming, and Sigil itself is an up and coming company itself, will learn from VG and make sure they are in a good shape to continue developement if at all possible. Releasing early is a last resort kind of thing, not a business tactic to make more money. STFU. I do NOT want to hear sympathy to a dumbass company that had 30 MILLION bucks in funding. Sigil had more then enough cash WAAAY MORE then enough. 1) Their advertisments sucked.. not even a TV ad. 2) They bought a pre-made engine. How could they have spent a lot of money on those? They didn't. So wtf did that money go to? Makes me truely wonder. Brad had his chance, but he's to stupid to run a company. It showed in EQ1 when he almost drove it into the ground with his retarded vision. Luckly SOE picked it up. His experience is limited in this industry. He should have stuck to games like pacman. They left MS, because MS dumped them for ALWAYS being behind schedule AND brad is a little bitch who didn't want a windows explusive game. LOTRO is windows exclusive. It dominated VGs launch. Who the crap plays games on a MAC? Not a very smart person. Ta hell with MAC. If a company invests 5 or 6 years and 30 million dollars into a game, and find that they need to release or fold, they will release regardless of what happens to VG. It's the dif. between attempting to salvage an IP, and make money off it, or toss all the time and money already invested and not let the IP see the light of day. No sane company is going to simply fold up if they are at a point were they could release a game that is playable, even in a smaller then anticipated market. Something is better then nothing. You don't make money off of nothing. They could have put the project on hold untill they had more funding. Simple as that. Loans do exist you know. They would have been better off putting it aside for the time being untill it can be properly fixed. This FIRST IMPRESSION they gave was horrid. They turned a lot of people away AND tarnished their name for good. Major point: FIRST IMPRESSION. Stop living in a fantasy world. The game sucks. The majority thinks it sucks. Go away already. You defend it. Then you get attacked by 3+ people. You're out numbered and might as well go play your crummy game then waste time here.
OMG...do you really feel so invested in this game that you feel it necessary to bash it so relentlessly? Do you even play the game right now? Can you say it "hasn't" improved? First Impressions are not everything btw - though we'd think it would be. AO flopped at the gate. EVE flopped at the gate. EQ2 flopped at the gate. All these are going pretty good. If you are expecting Vanguard to get the kinds of numbers WoW saw....OMG...that would just be delusional. I think once this game gets up to speed for it to have 300k to 500k it would be considered successful.
If LoTR keeps half its player base in 6 months I will be surprised. DDO was a huge IP and it ain't exactly the cats meow now is it? I seriously don't thing AoC nor War are going to be the end all be all of the gaming world as people are hyping them up to be either. Who here wants to bet that you'll be seeing more and more disgruntled post on LoTR boards soon? Hmmm...? Once people learn it is not all the different from what is all ready out there and just how small it really is they'll be bitching and moaning like they did with DDO.
Vanguard has a much greater potential to be a far better game then LoTR will ever be. Why play a game like LoTR that is all ready pretty much going to go a certain direction. Hell we know who wins! It's like watching the movie Titanic...we know it sinks! LOL! At least in Vanguard we have no clue what lies ahead and there is no telling what may happen. All I know is that if we see the kinds of things they are talking about putting in this game, ship to ship combat, ship to sea monster combat, free roaming flying mounts, mounted combat(jousting!) and on and on and on this game is surely going to rock. I plan on being here and watching it unfold and being a part of it. Woohoo! Rock on Vanguard rock on!
Keep hoping for those updates, you will get all that spiffy content about the time Warhammer or AoC comes out of the gates and tears will run from SoE. Tears are delicious.
Comments
So what you're saying is that a software company should just drop thier project entirely if things shouldn't go thier way? Instead of releaseing with what they have, they should just through it all away?
What you're saying is that if a situation should arise that is completely outt of the develpers hands; regardless of how they got thier to begin with, the dev. company should just thorugh the money they've spent already away, never even attemp to recoup some of the thier loses, and pay back at least some thier debt. In stead of releaseing ahead of schedule when they are out of money they should simply give up, so that no one ever gets to even play the game they dedicated years of thier life to?
Sounds like a sound business decision to me. I'm sure you would make a company loads of money with practises like that.
I think instead he is saying that he doesn't care what the developers do but that he would rather pay to play a complete game. I know that Brad's big excuse is that an MMORPG is never "finished" but there is a big difference between WOW and LOTRs releasing fairly polished and stable compared to Vanguard who released with only half a continent finished for the Orcs/Goblins and Half Elves or Star Wars Galaxies releasing without all the skills needed to play a Smuggler for instance.
The idea of a massive sandbox game really does appeal to me personally but unfortunately most people who try to build one gets in over there heads and releases two-four continent areas that are "dead" and missing the life and content needed to let players wander freely and pick and choose their activities at will.
The new trend will be smaller worlds at release with more polish and flash and optimization. This will garner more subscribers and better reviews and then they can go in and add more races and classes and continents and content to a stable game as opposed to following the old trend of big empty buggy worlds with little content or class balance that play "ping-pong patch" weekly. It's very hard to fix 100 problems like class balance and lack of content and bugs with your final product and at the same time try to prepare a new expansion with new problems to address.
So let's say you have a game, and you've run out of money to pay your employees. What do you do if you can't get more money, and the game is in a state that at least a good portion of it is playable? VG didn't release missing "most" of it's content, it released missing "some" of it's content.
So what would you do in that situations?
Yes. And most of them were back in EQ a few months later.
EverQuest lost a fair number of its players when both EQ2 and World of Warcraft launched. People went to one game or the other.
So you believe that no one should be able to play a game because you don't like it?
If It worked like that for me, then no one would have played Resident Evil or Tomb Raider. Two games I couldn't stand.
Rubbish, a lot of EQ1 fans went to DAOC when it was released.
I have to agree with this. DAOC released a short time before Luclin came out...if I remember correctly. Luclin and DAOC came out at the end of 2001 around the same time. I left to try DAOC. Many did because DAOC was suppose to be the next EQ, the EQ killer. After a friend and I played our characters up to level 25 or 30..I forget now exactly but I know it was in the late 20s, to maybe 30, we discovered how much content was lacking in DAOC. We did not care for the forced realm to realm PVP since there was not any content we could find for our levels. We both quit, and I went back to EQ.And AC1 as well.
And EQ1 had to break into the market with a product where very few were prepared to pay for monthly at the time and yet it succeeded.
Whether VG achieves the same, we will have to wait and see.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
You sell your game to the highest bidder, allowing that company to work with your creditors to absorb any and all debts, letting them pay your employees, and let them try to keep the game running. The only other option would be to declare bankruptcy, and limp along while you restructure your debts, trying desperately to keep from shutting down for good.
How much or how little they didn't release isn't the point if they can't pay their bills. Ultimately, being able to keep the lights on and the doors open has to come first. And if that means selling the game you've worked on for many years, then so be it.
So you believe that no one should be able to play a game because you don't like it?
If It worked like that for me, then no one would have played Resident Evil or Tomb Raider. Two games I couldn't stand.
Oops, you must not have read where I said "in my eyes"... I understand that I do not speak for the vast majority.... I'll let the falling subscriptions tell you more of the majority by shrinking VSOH market shares.... But nice of you to make a generalization on me based on a fact that didn't exist.
EverQuest lost a fair number of its players when both EQ2 and World of Warcraft launched. People went to one game or the other.
Gates of Discord hurt EQ more than WOW and EQ2 did. Making an expansion where content was tuned for level 70 characters when the level cap was still 65 was bad.
So you believe that no one should be able to play a game because you don't like it?
If It worked like that for me, then no one would have played Resident Evil or Tomb Raider. Two games I couldn't stand.
Oops, you must not have read where I said "in my eyes"... I understand that I do not speak for the vast majority.... I'll let the falling subscriptions tell you more of the majority by shrinking VSOH market shares.... But nice of you to make a generalization on me based on a fact that didn't exist.
Ok, so "in your eyes" you believe that no one should be able to play a ame because you don't like it.
Your comment is: doesn't deserve to live; wich could only be made as an opinion. An opinion is an "in my eyes" sort of thing.
EverQuest lost a fair number of its players when both EQ2 and World of Warcraft launched. People went to one game or the other.
Gates of Discord hurt EQ more than WOW and EQ2 did. Making an expansion where content was tuned for level 70 characters when the level cap was still 65 was bad.
I wouldn't know. I left the year before, when Ykesha launched. Heh.
From what I understand, their subs peaked right around the time GoD launched, then they declined sharply, but since I was already in the City of Heroes beta by then, I didn't pay much attention.
So you believe that no one should be able to play a game because you don't like it?
If It worked like that for me, then no one would have played Resident Evil or Tomb Raider. Two games I couldn't stand.
Oops, you must not have read where I said "in my eyes"... I understand that I do not speak for the vast majority.... I'll let the falling subscriptions tell you more of the majority by shrinking VSOH market shares.... But nice of you to make a generalization on me based on a fact that didn't exist.
Ok, so "in your eyes" you believe that no one should be able to play a ame because you don't like it.
Your comment is: doesn't deserve to live; wich could only be made as an opinion. An opinion is an "in my eyes" sort of thing.
Oh, well I suppose since reality is perception and in your reality you think I am trying to kill your holy game... In my eyes, if you want to worship a turd, I will let you as long as I dont have to smell it...
In my eyes, is in my perfect reality... Vanguard wouldn't exist because it lacks merit to do so. If I were in a place of power, I would discontinue to product or sell it off... Not so much different than SIGIL will be doing...
You sell your game to the highest bidder, allowing that company to work with your creditors to absorb any and all debts, letting them pay your employees, and let them try to keep the game running. The only other option would be to declare bankruptcy, and limp along while you restructure your debts, trying desperately to keep from shutting down for good.
How much or how little they didn't release isn't the point if they can't pay their bills. Ultimately, being able to keep the lights on and the doors open has to come first. And if that means selling the game you've worked on for many years, then so be it.
Who's to say that the company they that buys it sticks with what you set out to do. They could have changed the game entirely based on what they though would be good.
No thanks, I'd prefer to play the game that the original devs made, and not one that was sold so that an individual could make money and bounce. Not to mention if they sold, they would've took more heat as Brad would have been accused of building hype around a game that he never intented to make.
Sorry, no thanks. I'm happier playing now. I'm sorry that you're not.
Empty?! OMG! Are you serious? You don't play the game then do you. I was playing today, yes during regualr peoples hours, and there were so many stinking players on in the area I was in that I ahd to turn my game rigs settings down and I rarely have lag like that! It comes from one thing - lots of other players in close proximity to my character! I was out in the stinking deserts of Qalia and people were fighting over MOBS! Yes they were bickering over MOBS because there was so many people trying to complete these quest. I was like so many people say this game is dead and yet if this is what a dead game looks like god forbid what a live one must be like I'd need a Cray super computer to run it.
By the way I just joined a guild named Sha Shatar on the Florendyl sever and they have like 240+ members! Today I watched as they added another half a dozen! Yes 240+ members in this guild! I ahven't seen numbers like that since SWG pre-NGE! Or Planetside for that matter. If Vanguard is dead explain how this guild is this big and still growing?
I will predict that this game will be hitting 200k to 300k come this time next year. If they add all the things they say they are going to add - jousting! Ship to Ship combat. The free roaming flying mounts. The new landmass. More solo content. Raid content(all ready in testing by the way) and etc, etc....Vanguard will be a seriously great game.
While I wish vanguard will have more subscribers, With age of conan and warhammer online comming its highly unlikely vanguard will recover.
Glad to see that you live in reality.
Empty?! OMG! Are you serious? You don't play the game then do you. I was playing today, yes during regualr peoples hours, and there were so many stinking players on in the area I was in that I ahd to turn my game rigs settings down and I rarely have lag like that! It comes from one thing - lots of other players in close proximity to my character! I was out in the stinking deserts of Qalia and people were fighting over MOBS! Yes they were bickering over MOBS because there was so many people trying to complete these quest. I was like so many people say this game is dead and yet if this is what a dead game looks like god forbid what a live one must be like I'd need a Cray super computer to run it.
By the way I just joined a guild named Sha Shatar on the Florendyl sever and they have like 240+ members! Today I watched as they added another half a dozen! Yes 240+ members in this guild! I ahven't seen numbers like that since SWG pre-NGE! Or Planetside for that matter. If Vanguard is dead explain how this guild is this big and still growing?
I will predict that this game will be hitting 200k to 300k come this time next year. If they add all the things they say they are going to add - jousting! Ship to Ship combat. The free roaming flying mounts. The new landmass. More solo content. Raid content(all ready in testing by the way) and etc, etc....Vanguard will be a seriously great game.
While I wish vanguard will have more subscribers, With age of conan and warhammer online comming its highly unlikely vanguard will recover.
Whilst not wanting to start another arguement, Warhammer is on its third attempt to get published, god knows if it even will. AoC will more likely effect LOTR than VG unless levelling in AoC is hard work, then hardcore VG fans will leave.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Empty?! OMG! Are you serious? You don't play the game then do you. I was playing today, yes during regualr peoples hours, and there were so many stinking players on in the area I was in that I ahd to turn my game rigs settings down and I rarely have lag like that! It comes from one thing - lots of other players in close proximity to my character! I was out in the stinking deserts of Qalia and people were fighting over MOBS! Yes they were bickering over MOBS because there was so many people trying to complete these quest. I was like so many people say this game is dead and yet if this is what a dead game looks like god forbid what a live one must be like I'd need a Cray super computer to run it.
By the way I just joined a guild named Sha Shatar on the Florendyl sever and they have like 240+ members! Today I watched as they added another half a dozen! Yes 240+ members in this guild! I ahven't seen numbers like that since SWG pre-NGE! Or Planetside for that matter. If Vanguard is dead explain how this guild is this big and still growing?
I will predict that this game will be hitting 200k to 300k come this time next year. If they add all the things they say they are going to add - jousting! Ship to Ship combat. The free roaming flying mounts. The new landmass. More solo content. Raid content(all ready in testing by the way) and etc, etc....Vanguard will be a seriously great game.
While I wish vanguard will have more subscribers, With age of conan and warhammer online comming its highly unlikely vanguard will recover.
Or people might upgrade thier PC's to play AoC, at wich time they would then be able to play VG much better, and might give the game a shot then.
AoC may help VG just because at that time hardware will be cheaper and more people may have upgraded by then.
We're at that juncture in PC hardware, were people are going to HAVE to start upgrading in the coming months to keep up with some of the new games that come out, utilizing more advanced software.
Most companies don't run out of money. CoH didn't.
DAoC had a crappy release I believe. Dunno, someone familliar with DAoC wanna verify?
Turbine also did DDO online. Not exactly a popular game.
WoW had it's problems, and didn't release early. In fact over the coarse of 2 years I've ended up with 2 or 3 months worth of free time because the game wasn't playable at times. Never had a problem playing VG personally, although I do understand that some with older gen hardware did. VG has also improved over the course of 4 months.
I'm a customer and I'm not "paying a price". Unless you mean a monthly fee to play a playable game that I enjoy; then yes, I'm paying the price.
Some of their games have had issues. That's expected when it's their 2-3rd game that they are attempting to do something different from the ordinary. Vanguard was no rocket science. They used a pre-made engine. They had a HUGGGEEE budget. They had tons of experience. Yet it flopped. Improved over 4 months? NO ONE CARES. I've already explained the rule of FIRST IMPRESSION.
Game is stable to me. I wouldn't have any clue about testing, because I wasn't involved in it. But yeah, games stable for me.
Awesome, you're a lucky one then. Even on my high end powerful machine this POS game stuttered or flat out locked up. I ran many many tests and it leaks. BADLY. This probably improved over those 4 months as you said, but as I said. FIRST IMPRESSION.
This isn't launch. Games been out 4 months. When was the last time you played? I personally have been fortunate enogh to not have run into sever bugs. What bugs were severe? I'm not familliar with any game breaking bugs in VG. I know there were some annoying ones, but none that made the game unplayable that I was aware of.
WTF level are you do? My shaman hit lvl40 and I quit then. I played for 2 months and that was that. Nothing but broken quests or annoying ass bugs such as team disconnecting and several other things. Falling thought the arena. Arena bugging and having to wait for server restart to fix it. There's many more.. the list goes on.. early levels you don't notice to many, but they are there. High end is what kills it. We also don't care if it's 4 months out. I'll repeat: FIRST IMPRESSION.
Lord of the Rings didn't run out of money either. They weren't forced to release early to keep the game alive. Again your business sence is a little off here. Software companies don't want to have crappy starts, they want to start strong. No software company is going to release early and lose a lot of potential costumers, they would be losing a lot of money. It's more economical to release on time, pollished, and ready to go. VG's impact on the industry is going to be one of caution. Other up coming, and Sigil itself is an up and coming company itself, will learn from VG and make sure they are in a good shape to continue developement if at all possible. Releasing early is a last resort kind of thing, not a business tactic to make more money.
STFU. I do NOT want to hear sympathy to a dumbass company that had 30 MILLION bucks in funding. Sigil had more then enough cash WAAAY MORE then enough. 1) Their advertisments sucked.. not even a TV ad. 2) They bought a pre-made engine. How could they have spent a lot of money on those? They didn't. So wtf did that money go to? Makes me truely wonder. Brad had his chance, but he's to stupid to run a company. It showed in EQ1 when he almost drove it into the ground with his retarded vision. Luckly SOE picked it up. His experience is limited in this industry. He should have stuck to games like pacman.
They left MS, because MS dumped them for ALWAYS being behind schedule AND brad is a little bitch who didn't want a windows explusive game. LOTRO is windows exclusive. It dominated VGs launch. Who the crap plays games on a MAC? Not a very smart person. Ta hell with MAC.
If a company invests 5 or 6 years and 30 million dollars into a game, and find that they need to release or fold, they will release regardless of what happens to VG. It's the dif. between attempting to salvage an IP, and make money off it, or toss all the time and money already invested and not let the IP see the light of day. No sane company is going to simply fold up if they are at a point were they could release a game that is playable, even in a smaller then anticipated market. Something is better then nothing. You don't make money off of nothing.
They could have put the project on hold untill they had more funding. Simple as that. Loans do exist you know. They would have been better off putting it aside for the time being untill it can be properly fixed. This FIRST IMPRESSION they gave was horrid. They turned a lot of people away AND tarnished their name for good.
Major point: FIRST IMPRESSION.
Stop living in a fantasy world. The game sucks. The majority thinks it sucks. Go away already. You defend it. Then you get attacked by 3+ people. You're out numbered and might as well go play your crummy game then waste time here.
Why not? That's precisely what SOE did to EverQuest after Brad left. They added all sorts of things to the game, and their subscriptions ended up increasing over time. At least until the Gates of Discord, from what I'm reading in this thread.
At some point, a CEO has to decide what is more important-- the integrity of their game, or the financial state of their company. Do they sacrifice one to save the other, or do they stubbornly stick to their guns and go down with their ship?
You'll know which one is more important to Brad and to his investors whenever SOE makes whatever announcement Smed was talking about. It's only about a week a way, I think.
It's not about me. It's a pragmatic view of the business at hand here. Considering the time and money they've already spent, if they're broke, they've only got two options-- sell and hope for the best, or declare bankruptcy and ride it out for as long as possible.
That's the way these things work. Businesses either succeed, or they fail. And when they're broke, their options are severely limited.
I know I played it for 2 years. I wasn't targeting all of those MMOs in the list, but just the few he was targeting. =D
All in all. VG sucks. Don't know why people keep trying to explain why it is/isn't. VG had a bad first impression and i'm sticking to my judgement. If it tops out at 300k subs or something. I'll renounce my judgement. Untill then. It sucks. I don't even need to go into details. If people want details. Go to silkyvenom or any other fansite forums. LOL
That's respectable.
Why not? That's precisely what SOE did to EverQuest after Brad left. They added all sorts of things to the game, and their subscriptions ended up increasing over time. At least until the Gates of Discord, from what I'm reading in this thread.
Mcquaid didn't sell anything to SoE. He didn't own anything to sell. He wa hired by Smedley to work on EQ. EQ was made from the beginning for Sony. A year after it was finished the company that Smedley was put in charge of running became SoE.
At some point, a CEO has to decide what is more important-- the integrity of their game, or the financial state of their company. Do they sacrifice one to save the other, or do they stubbornly stick to their guns and go down with their ship?
You'll know which one is more important to Brad and to his investors whenever SOE makes whatever announcement Smed was talking about. It's only about a week a way, I think.
Sometimes you have to decide as the creator what is more important. Your integrety as creator, or your desire to make a quick buck as the president of a company. Most companies that are in it for a quick buck aren't usually looked upon with much respect. Brad stuck by his product and that as an artist is something I can respect.
It's not about me. It's a pragmatic view of the business at hand here. Considering the time and money they've already spent, if they're broke, they've only got two options-- sell and hope for the best, or declare bankruptcy and ride it out for as long as possible.
That's the way these things work. Businesses either succeed, or they fail. And when they're broke, their options are severely limited.
Sounds like they released and are hoping for the best.
OMG...do you really feel so invested in this game that you feel it necessary to bash it so relentlessly? Do you even play the game right now? Can you say it "hasn't" improved? First Impressions are not everything btw - though we'd think it would be. AO flopped at the gate. EVE flopped at the gate. EQ2 flopped at the gate. All these are going pretty good. If you are expecting Vanguard to get the kinds of numbers WoW saw....OMG...that would just be delusional. I think once this game gets up to speed for it to have 300k to 500k it would be considered successful.
If LoTR keeps half its player base in 6 months I will be surprised. DDO was a huge IP and it ain't exactly the cats meow now is it? I seriously don't thing AoC nor War are going to be the end all be all of the gaming world as people are hyping them up to be either. Who here wants to bet that you'll be seeing more and more disgruntled post on LoTR boards soon? Hmmm...? Once people learn it is not all the different from what is all ready out there and just how small it really is they'll be bitching and moaning like they did with DDO.
Vanguard has a much greater potential to be a far better game then LoTR will ever be. Why play a game like LoTR that is all ready pretty much going to go a certain direction. Hell we know who wins! It's like watching the movie Titanic...we know it sinks! LOL! At least in Vanguard we have no clue what lies ahead and there is no telling what may happen. All I know is that if we see the kinds of things they are talking about putting in this game, ship to ship combat, ship to sea monster combat, free roaming flying mounts, mounted combat(jousting!) and on and on and on this game is surely going to rock. I plan on being here and watching it unfold and being a part of it. Woohoo! Rock on Vanguard rock on!