National, universal health care WORKS. It is less expensive, and everyone is covered. If it slows it down a bit for certain treatment that does not require IMMEDIATE attention, so be it. 18,000 US American citizens die a year due to no coverage. 18,000! Maybe 4k died in Iraq after all these YEARS?
US Americans are dieing from no coverage. Visit an advanced, industrialized country such as France or Norway or the UK or even Canada and experience their health care systems. In many respects, superior to the US.
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
National, universal health care WORKS. It is less expensive, and everyone is covered. If it slows it down a bit for certain treatment that does not require IMMEDIATE attention, so be it. 18,000 US American citizens die a year due to no coverage. 18,000! Maybe 4k died in Iraq after all these YEARS?
US Americans are dieing from no coverage. Visit an advanced, industrialized country such as France or Norway or the UK or even Canada and experience their health care systems. In many respects, superior to the US.
I have friends in Canada that live near the border. Most of them come to America to get their healthcare needs met. Why? Because they have money and our care is superior. If they need something done it will get done a lot faster and with better care then in Canada.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Universal health care = cheaper (for the tax payers) universal health care has long term revenue private health care doesn't have Universal health care is better in terms of waiting lines, service, ...
We have a system of Universal Health Care in the US. The Military has it. Guess what we have worse service then in the private sector. I have a condition that is potentially life threatening and I have to wait 5 months just to see the Surgeon for a consult. Yes my health care is free and in some cases that is nice. For instance in the Military they are more willing to do tests just to confirm an outcome and not worry about the cost. But you have to wait a lot longer. If you have the money to get good health care then private health care is a lot better. Heck if you have the cash to not even have health insurance that is the best care possible.
Can you refute any of my 3 statements taking into account a situation where the US would copy a system of universal health care from countries like France and Germany? No, you can not.
The price must be higher --hence, 50 MILLION Americans cannot afford care-- and the care provided must be less so that the difference between what is needed and what is provided is PROFIT. 18,000 Americans die a year due to no care or inadequate health care. RIP!
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
National, universal health care WORKS. It is less expensive, and everyone is covered. If it slows it down a bit for certain treatment that does not require IMMEDIATE attention, so be it. 18,000 US American citizens die a year due to no coverage. 18,000! Maybe 4k died in Iraq after all these YEARS?
US Americans are dieing from no coverage. Visit an advanced, industrialized country such as France or Norway or the UK or even Canada and experience their health care systems. In many respects, superior to the US.
I have friends in Canada that live near the border. Most of them come to America to get their healthcare needs met. Why? Because they have money and our care is superior. If they need something done it will get done a lot faster and with better care then in Canada.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
Exactly, MadAce. Great post. Americans are getting hosed. Hey, but you subsidize, you PAY FOR WORLD HEALTH CARE. HOW? You overspend on your pharmaceuticals. Hehe. So... the rest of the world has cheaper drugs, the governments around the world will not let drug companies rip off citizens. So the Americans are paying EXTREME amounts for drugs. LMAO!
If you go to the UK, you pay one fee for a month, whether it is for 5 or 10 subscriptions or whatever. In the USA, you are spending like 100.00 bucks PER subscription!!! I feel sorry for Americans. LOL.
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
National, universal health care WORKS. It is less expensive, and everyone is covered. If it slows it down a bit for certain treatment that does not require IMMEDIATE attention, so be it. 18,000 US American citizens die a year due to no coverage. 18,000! Maybe 4k died in Iraq after all these YEARS?
US Americans are dieing from no coverage. Visit an advanced, industrialized country such as France or Norway or the UK or even Canada and experience their health care systems. In many respects, superior to the US.
I have friends in Canada that live near the border. Most of them come to America to get their healthcare needs met. Why? Because they have money and our care is superior. If they need something done it will get done a lot faster and with better care then in Canada.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
EACH of those countries takes more TAX out of their citizen's INCOME.
UK - 40% tax at the top
France - 52.75%
Germany - 45%
Sweden - 55%
Switzerland - 45.5%
Heck even Iceland I know takes over 50% at the highest level for income tax.
SO Why would I want my Taxes raised to pay for Universal Healthcare?
Yes you pay less per person then we do in the US, but there is a reason that they take more money out for income tax.
The last thing I want is a more socialistic country. The Government should be less involved in people's lives. So what if some people die because they were too stupid to either get a job or save up money if they had a job in case something bad happens.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
National, universal health care WORKS. It is less expensive, and everyone is covered. If it slows it down a bit for certain treatment that does not require IMMEDIATE attention, so be it. 18,000 US American citizens die a year due to no coverage. 18,000! Maybe 4k died in Iraq after all these YEARS?
US Americans are dieing from no coverage. Visit an advanced, industrialized country such as France or Norway or the UK or even Canada and experience their health care systems. In many respects, superior to the US.
I have friends in Canada that live near the border. Most of them come to America to get their healthcare needs met. Why? Because they have money and our care is superior. If they need something done it will get done a lot faster and with better care then in Canada.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
EACH of those countries takes more TAX out of their citizen's INCOME.
UK - 40% tax at the top
France - 52.75%
Germany - 45%
Sweden - 55%
Switzerland - 45.5%
Heck even Iceland I know takes over 50% at the highest level for income tax.
SO Why would I want my Taxes raised to pay for Universal Healthcare?
Yes you pay less per person then we do in the US, but there is a reason that they take more money out for income tax.
The last thing I want is a more socialistic country. The Government should be less involved in people's lives. So what if some people die because they were too stupid to either get a job or save up money if they had a job in case something bad happens.
YET THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER CHILD MORTALITY AND A HIGHER LIFE EXPECTANCY!! AND IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY READ THAT CHART THEN YOU WOULD UNDERTSTAND THE CITIZENS OF THOSE COUNTRIES PAY LESS MONEY FOR BETTER HEALTH CARE!!
THE US SPENDS 15% OF ITS GDP ON SUBSTANDARD HEALTH CARE COMPARED TO ONLY 10% FRANCE SPENDS. 15 IS MORE THAN 10. I'M SORRY BUT THAT'S THE TRUTH!!!
Btw, you're suggesting that people should be kept from working because they're sick, something that can happen to anyone and is more costly than anyone can pay. There isn't something like a neutral person, costing nothing to society but also not contributing.
Why do you think the productivity rate in France is HIGHER than in the US?
Yes. But we can change the tax system in the USA and what we fund to provide national health care.
1) Get out of Iraq I don't agree with this one, but we don't need to turn this into a different conversation. My position stems not from one of agreement with the war, but from the fact that we are in there and need to finish the job. 2) Stop funding our military to protect other countries: Germany, Korea, Japan, et al. I do agree with this. I believe our military should all be pulled back within our borders. 3) Increase taxes on Capital Gains, Dividends, and Corporate taxes I don't agree. The government needs to stay out of business. A free market economy is part of how America was founded. 4) Reduce the income tax I disagree here. They shouldn't reduce it they should repeal the law. I think that the income tax is unconstitutional and completely against what the federal government was meant to do. Our polititians at one time agreed as well since it was voted down the first few times it came up for a vote. 5) Have some fee system in place for national health care ANDprivate insurance options I don't agree with any type of national Health care. If states want to create state healthcare systems then fine . They can do that and they can use sales tax to finance it. 6) Reduce corporate welfare if not eliminate it They should reduce all welfare. Not only corporate welfare, but also social security, medicare, food stamps, etc etc etc. Pretty much everything FDR put into place should be removed from the federal government. It is very possible in the USA.
On an interesting note. That 40% tax rate in the UK did not include the universal Healthcare system:
"In addition, the UK has a National insurance contribution based on income. Although effectively another form of income tax, credits for payments of this applied to the individual's record which, in turn, will impact on entitlement to welfare and (the level of) state pension payments. Rates are levied on the self employed, the employed, and their respective employers."
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
National, universal health care WORKS. It is less expensive, and everyone is covered. If it slows it down a bit for certain treatment that does not require IMMEDIATE attention, so be it. 18,000 US American citizens die a year due to no coverage. 18,000! Maybe 4k died in Iraq after all these YEARS?
US Americans are dieing from no coverage. Visit an advanced, industrialized country such as France or Norway or the UK or even Canada and experience their health care systems. In many respects, superior to the US.
I have friends in Canada that live near the border. Most of them come to America to get their healthcare needs met. Why? Because they have money and our care is superior. If they need something done it will get done a lot faster and with better care then in Canada.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
EACH of those countries takes more TAX out of their citizen's INCOME.
UK - 40% tax at the top
France - 52.75%
Germany - 45%
Sweden - 55%
Switzerland - 45.5%
Heck even Iceland I know takes over 50% at the highest level for income tax.
SO Why would I want my Taxes raised to pay for Universal Healthcare?
Yes you pay less per person then we do in the US, but there is a reason that they take more money out for income tax.
The last thing I want is a more socialistic country. The Government should be less involved in people's lives. So what if some people die because they were too stupid to either get a job or save up money if they had a job in case something bad happens.
YET THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER CHILD MORTALITY AND A HIGHER LIFE EXPECTANCY!! AND IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY READ THAT CHART THEN YOU WOULD UNDERTSTAND THE CITIZENS OF THOSE COUNTRIES PAY LESS MONEY FOR BETTER HEALTH CARE!!
THE US SPENDS 15% OF ITS GDP ON SUBSTANDARD HEALTH CARE COMPARED TO ONLY 10% FRANCE SPENDS. 15 IS MORE THAN 10. I'M SORRY BUT THAT'S THE TRUTH!!!
Btw, you're suggesting that people should be kept from working because they're sick, something that can happen to anyone and is more costly than anyone can pay. There isn't something like a neutral person, costing nothing to society but also not contributing.
Why do you think the productivity rate in France is HIGHER than in the US?
Yes.
And the size and COST of the USA Health Care system is the entire economy of CHINA!!!
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
YET THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER CHILD MORTALITY AND A HIGHER LIFE EXPECTANCY!! AND IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY READ THAT CHART THEN YOU WOULD UNDERTSTAND THE CITIZENS OF THOSE COUNTRIES PAY LESS MONEY FOR BETTER HEALTH CARE!!
THE US SPENDS 15% OF ITS GDP ON SUBSTANDARD HEALTH CARE COMPARED TO ONLY 10% FRANCE SPENDS. 15 IS MORE THAN 10. I'M SORRY BUT THAT'S THE TRUTH!!!
Btw, you're suggesting that people should be kept from working because they're sick, something that can happen to anyone and is more costly than anyone can pay. There isn't something like a neutral person, costing nothing to society but also not contributing. Why do you think the productivity rate in France is HIGHER than in the US?
Causes of death in the developing world were dramatically different from those in the developed world, the report said. In industrialized nations deaths were most likely to result from babies being born too small or too early, while in the developing world about half of newborn deaths were from infection, tetanus and diarrhea.
So the primary reason for Infant mortality in the US is a result of Premature delivery and baby size. Some of the main causes of Premature delivery and small baby size are:
• Are pregnant with twins or higher order multiples
• Are younger than 17 or older than 35
• Are African American (17.4 percent of African American babies are born prematurely)
• Smoke, abuse alcohol, or use drugs (especially cocaine) during pregnancy
OK well lets look at those reason. The US has a signifcantly higher age of getting married and giving birth then other countries, so that automatically skews our data to higher mortality rates. We also have a larger African American population then Europe does. We have a population that is obsessed with being thin and so will not gain enough weight or started out at too low of a weight (see Nichole richie as an example). We have a problem with alcohol abuse (especially among uneducated people) and drug problems. And lastly we have a ton of people getting pregnant for the first time at an age older then 35 and then using invetro fertialization (I probably butchered that word) because they couldn't get pregnant. Invetro leads to much higher rates of multiple births. Which in turn leads to much lower birth weights and more instance of premature delivery. Which in turn leads to a higher Mortality Rate.
So yes our healthcare could actually be better then the other countries and still have higher infant mortality rates. That is not a good indicator of how good your healthcare system is, unless it is linked to specifcally infant mortality caused by lack of medical care. Which it is not.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
So you're saying other industrialized countries have no issues they have to deal with? Is that it?
There's no point in talking to you. You ignore perfectly good arguments and figures or try to refute them with things that make your country look even worse. I'm not sure what is blinding you. For Americas sake I hope it's not lack of a good education.
So you're saying other industrialized countries have no issues they have to deal with? Is that it?
There's no point in talking to you. You ignore perfectly good arguments and figures or try to refute them with things that make your country look even worse. I'm not sure what is blinding you. For Americas sake I hope it's not lack of a good education.
Why do you always resort to personal attacks when you can not refute something?
I stated that the reason our "data" being measured there looks worse can be attributed to other factors not just the fact that our healthcare system is broken as you guys are trying to state.
You said that it shows our healthcare is poor because our infant mortality rate is really bad. I show you that our infant mortality rate is bad because of factors not related to our healthcare system and then you question my education and tell me that I am blind? Why because I don't believe in this socialist system that liberals are promoting? Why because I want to try to return to what made America great which is less government not more?
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I believe that the US should return to the pre-WW 2 days in which there was no employer provided health care, pension, or other benefits. The days when capitalists ruled the roost, if you became disabled on the job, and couldn't work, tough cookies, crawl under a rock and die. The days when what an industralist wanted, they got. They days where it was a dog eat dog world, every working class person for themself, devil take the hindmost.
That is why we now have IRA and 401K self funded retirement accounts. If you work at McDonalds and can't afford one, and get no matching funds, tough cookies, go crawl up a sewer and die in your old age. If you make enough money to sock away the maximum allowed contribution, and get the maximum allowed employer matching, and are educated enough to know how to invest it, you will do quite well in your retirement.
That is why employers now offer health savings accounts instead of health insurance. If you are in the 10% tax bracket, your taxable income is reduced by your health savings plan contributions, thereby providing you a 10% government subsidy. Much cheaper to corporate America then paying Blue Cross, and you get the freedom to make a market decision of how to spend your health savings account. Of course, if you work at a low paying job with no marginal tax rate, tough cookies. And if you work at a high paying job with a 34% marginal tax rate, the government subsidizes 34% of your health care costs. Can't afford health care, tough cookies, go crawl under a rock and die.
We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT regulating business. Let the capitalists make their profits, dump their toxic waste, manufacture unsafe products, etc. That is what this country was founded on, unbridled free market capitalism, Let the Buyer Beware. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT regulating trade between states, or with nations, let each state set it's own import/export duties. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT controling our borders, regulating airline travel, providing disaster relief to states other than ours. Let the state governments issue their own currency, we don't need BIG GOVERNMENT to regulate our money supply. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT to enforce school desegregation, let George Wallace stand in the door and bar admisssions to blacks, it's his States Right. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT for homeland security, let each state do it themselves. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT to take our tax dollars to rebuild New Orleans, those people should be on their own.
It's my money and I have the right to decide who I help, and who I don't. And if I choose not to help anyone other than myself, tough cookies, they can just crawl under a rock and die. That is my right as an American!
After all, the Federalists lost didn't they, we are a Confederacy of states rights, right? The sooner the Constitution is thrown out the better, all it is now is a useless tool of the ACLU.
The USA was founded on freedom. NOT CAPITALISM. The Revolutionary Patriots dieing in the snow were NOT dieing for capitalism.
And whomever told you, and persuaded you, is a complete a-hole.
America is about FREEDOM, and a national health coverage system does not undermine or enhance freedom. It is consistent with the US Constitution to "promote the general welfare." See www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I'm curious. Those of you who so adamantly want national health care. Why do YOU PERSONALLY want it so bad?
You want someone to pay your bills for you?
Or you're an altruistic person who just wants to help others?
But wait...if you chose the "altruistic" answer then what about people like me? See, I haven't been to a doctor in about eight years. I don't run to the doctor ever time I get the sniffles and I am fortunate enough to have no serious medical problems that require ongoing care. So if your socialist, utopian health care system had been in place for the past decade it wouldn't have helped me at all. On the contrary, it would have taken money from me while I was getting nothing from it at all.
So you might be helping some people. But at the expense of others. Why should I have to pay for something I'm not using? Why should I have to pay for YOUR viagra?
Am I going to get a tax break in this utopian scheme if I don't actually use the national health care system? No? Then you know what I would do if we had socialist health care? I would go to see doctors even if I didn't need to. I would get prescriptions for fake conditions just to get my moneys worth. And then I would probably sell the drugs to the poor bastards who really need them but couldn't get them because they are on a waiting list behind people like me. It's just human nature.
If people CAN work the system they WILL work the system. And if I'm being forced to pay for something I WILL find a way to get my moneys worth out of it.
So you're saying other industrialized countries have no issues they have to deal with? Is that it?
There's no point in talking to you. You ignore perfectly good arguments and figures or try to refute them with things that make your country look even worse. I'm not sure what is blinding you. For Americas sake I hope it's not lack of a good education.
Why do you always resort to personal attacks when you can not refute something?
I stated that the reason our "data" being measured there looks worse can be attributed to other factors not just the fact that our healthcare system is broken as you guys are trying to state.
You said that it shows our healthcare is poor because our infant mortality rate is really bad. I show you that our infant mortality rate is bad because of factors not related to our healthcare system and then you question my education and tell me that I am blind? Why because I don't believe in this socialist system that liberals are promoting? Why because I want to try to return to what made America great which is less government not more?
There isn't anything I can refute. You don't give arguments or statistics. You don't give anything.
if you don't ignore the data then you question whether or not it's biased. The factors that you summed up are the reasons for infant mortality, yes. What other reasons could there be?
"I sentence you to 50 years in a state penitentiary for murder."
"But your honor! The reason why I kill people is because I aim my gun and pull the trigger!"
What's next? Will you tell me low life expectency is because people get old and die?
Why don't you refute the high cost of the US system? The fact that independent studies simply say it's no good and could be much better for less money?
You suggest other countries have no issues such as the US has. Then what causes their infant mortality?
Frankly I don't care what anyone is. I myself am nothing, neither liberal or socialist or whatever. If there is a problem then you see what sollution works. Then you apply it. Simple as that.
The USA was founded on freedom. NOT CAPITALISM. The Revolutionary Patriots dieing in the snow were NOT dieing for capitalism.
And whomever told you, and persuaded you, is a complete a-hole.
America is about FREEDOM, and a national health coverage system does not undermine or enhance freedom. It is consistent with the US Constitution to "promote the general welfare." See www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html
And letting government bullies tell us how to spend our money and which doctors we can and can't see and what medical treatment we can and can't get is the epitomy of freedom isn't it?
Cabe, he has refuted your claims with facts, figures, and statistics....
You are the one not able to make a persuasive argument. I will wait for one from you (taps foot).
Waiting....
What facts? He said that it would cost the government less. But if it costs the government less then why do all of those governments take more of their citizens money then America does? And even if a National Healthcare system would somehow end up costing less then what they currently are spending do you honestly think that it would lower our tax rate at all? No of course not. The government would use it as an excuse to raise taxes and then would cite the same countries as examples. IE "well if you want great healthcare like France, Germany, Sweden, and the UK have then you need to give us 40-55% of your income"
He said that America's Healthcare was the worst and cited infant mortality rates. I refuted that claim by showing that infant mortality rates can't be linked to quality healthcare in a cause and effect relationship. It is a coorelation and makes a nice talking point because everyone loves Babies and doesn't want them to die, but the fact remains that the quality of America's healthcare can not be linked to causing the higher infant moratlity rate that our country has.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I'm curious. Those of you who so adamantly want national health care. Why do YOU PERSONALLY want it so bad? You want someone to pay your bills for you? Or you're an altruistic person who just wants to help others?
But wait...if you chose the "altruistic" answer then what about people like me? See, I haven't been to a doctor in about eight years. I don't run to the doctor ever time I get the sniffles and I am fortunate enough to have no serious medical problems that require ongoing care. So if your socialist, utopian health care system had been in place for the past decade it wouldn't have helped me at all. On the contrary, it would have taken money from me while I was getting nothing from it at all. So you might be helping some people. But at the expense of others. Why should I have to pay for something I'm not using? Why should I have to pay for YOUR viagra? Am I going to get a tax break in this utopian scheme if I don't actually use the national health care system? No? Then you know what I would do if we had socialist health care? I would go to see doctors even if I didn't need to. I would get prescriptions for fake conditions just to get my moneys worth. And then I would probably sell the drugs to the poor bastards who really need them but couldn't get them because they are on a waiting list behind people like me. It's just human nature. If people CAN work the system they WILL work the system. And if I'm being forced to pay for something I WILL find a way to get my moneys worth out of it.
Is it so impossible to UNDERSTAND that you are paying 15% of your taxes when you would only have to pay 9% for a better system?
You're already paying for other people. Hence why you have a government at all. If you don't want that, buy a bunker in the mountains and wait for a nuclear winter. You could be paying less...
I myself am an altruistic person. I need little money and am willing to share what I have. Why? Because economics suggest it's better for society that more people can work. They WILL make up for their expenses. Why do you think so many countries use that system? Because they're filthy communists bent on world domination? Because they want to annoy Americans? Because they're actually not human but descendants from the Roswell alien? And do you honestly think those countries aren't economically competative?
The USA was founded on freedom. NOT CAPITALISM. The Revolutionary Patriots dieing in the snow were NOT dieing for capitalism.
And whomever told you, and persuaded you, is a complete a-hole.
America is about FREEDOM, and a national health coverage system does not undermine or enhance freedom. It is consistent with the US Constitution to "promote the general welfare." See www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html
UHH Capitalism is freedom. Sorry bud, but anytime you intervene in someone's life you are taking away some of their freedom. Even if it is for good causes. It still takes away the freedoms that people have.
And remember that the Patriots were dying for freedom yes, but a particular freedom. The right to choose how their money was used and for what reasons. So yes the revolutionary war was about money.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
The USA was founded on freedom. NOT CAPITALISM. The Revolutionary Patriots dieing in the snow were NOT dieing for capitalism.
And whomever told you, and persuaded you, is a complete a-hole.
America is about FREEDOM, and a national health coverage system does not undermine or enhance freedom. It is consistent with the US Constitution to "promote the general welfare." See www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html
And letting government bullies tell us how to spend our money and which doctors we can and can't see and what medical treatment we can and can't get is the epitomy of freedom isn't it?
I can see whatever doctor I want. Whenever I want. I can select medical treatment as I wish. I can have an accident and have a choice not to be poor afterwards because I didn't make 6 figures a year.
Comments
National, universal health care WORKS. It is less expensive, and everyone is covered. If it slows it down a bit for certain treatment that does not require IMMEDIATE attention, so be it. 18,000 US American citizens die a year due to no coverage. 18,000! Maybe 4k died in Iraq after all these YEARS?
US Americans are dieing from no coverage. Visit an advanced, industrialized country such as France or Norway or the UK or even Canada and experience their health care systems. In many respects, superior to the US.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
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Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
We have a system of Universal Health Care in the US. The Military has it. Guess what we have worse service then in the private sector. I have a condition that is potentially life threatening and I have to wait 5 months just to see the Surgeon for a consult. Yes my health care is free and in some cases that is nice. For instance in the Military they are more willing to do tests just to confirm an outcome and not worry about the cost. But you have to wait a lot longer. If you have the money to get good health care then private health care is a lot better. Heck if you have the cash to not even have health insurance that is the best care possible.
Can you refute any of my 3 statements taking into account a situation where the US would copy a system of universal health care from countries like France and Germany? No, you can not.CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
SUMMARY
For Profit Health Care
MUST be more expensive to earn a profit
MUST reduce care to earn a profit
The price must be higher --hence, 50 MILLION Americans cannot afford care-- and the care provided must be less so that the difference between what is needed and what is provided is PROFIT. 18,000 Americans die a year due to no care or inadequate health care. RIP!
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I have friends in Canada that live near the border. Most of them come to America to get their healthcare needs met. Why? Because they have money and our care is superior. If they need something done it will get done a lot faster and with better care then in Canada.And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
proof:
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Exactly, MadAce. Great post. Americans are getting hosed. Hey, but you subsidize, you PAY FOR WORLD HEALTH CARE. HOW? You overspend on your pharmaceuticals. Hehe. So... the rest of the world has cheaper drugs, the governments around the world will not let drug companies rip off citizens. So the Americans are paying EXTREME amounts for drugs. LMAO!
If you go to the UK, you pay one fee for a month, whether it is for 5 or 10 subscriptions or whatever. In the USA, you are spending like 100.00 bucks PER subscription!!! I feel sorry for Americans. LOL.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
proof:
EACH of those countries takes more TAX out of their citizen's INCOME.
UK - 40% tax at the top
France - 52.75%
Germany - 45%
Sweden - 55%
Switzerland - 45.5%
Heck even Iceland I know takes over 50% at the highest level for income tax.
SO Why would I want my Taxes raised to pay for Universal Healthcare?
Yes you pay less per person then we do in the US, but there is a reason that they take more money out for income tax.
The last thing I want is a more socialistic country. The Government should be less involved in people's lives. So what if some people die because they were too stupid to either get a job or save up money if they had a job in case something bad happens.
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LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Yes. But we can change the tax system in the USA and what we fund to provide national health care.
1) Get out of Iraq
2) Stop funding our military to protect other countries: Germany, Korea, Japan, et al.
3) Increase taxes on Capital Gains, Dividends, and Corporate taxes
4) Reduce the income tax
5) Have some fee system in place for national health care AND private insurance options
6) Reduce corporate welfare if not eliminate it
It is very possible in the USA.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
proof:
EACH of those countries takes more TAX out of their citizen's INCOME.
UK - 40% tax at the top
France - 52.75%
Germany - 45%
Sweden - 55%
Switzerland - 45.5%
Heck even Iceland I know takes over 50% at the highest level for income tax.
SO Why would I want my Taxes raised to pay for Universal Healthcare?
Yes you pay less per person then we do in the US, but there is a reason that they take more money out for income tax.
The last thing I want is a more socialistic country. The Government should be less involved in people's lives. So what if some people die because they were too stupid to either get a job or save up money if they had a job in case something bad happens.
YET THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER CHILD MORTALITY AND A HIGHER LIFE EXPECTANCY!! AND IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY READ THAT CHART THEN YOU WOULD UNDERTSTAND THE CITIZENS OF THOSE COUNTRIES PAY LESS MONEY FOR BETTER HEALTH CARE!!THE US SPENDS 15% OF ITS GDP ON SUBSTANDARD HEALTH CARE COMPARED TO ONLY 10% FRANCE SPENDS. 15 IS MORE THAN 10. I'M SORRY BUT THAT'S THE TRUTH!!!
Btw, you're suggesting that people should be kept from working because they're sick, something that can happen to anyone and is more costly than anyone can pay. There isn't something like a neutral person, costing nothing to society but also not contributing.
Why do you think the productivity rate in France is HIGHER than in the US?
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On an interesting note. That 40% tax rate in the UK did not include the universal Healthcare system:
"In addition, the UK has a National insurance contribution based on income. Although effectively another form of income tax, credits for payments of this applied to the individual's record which, in turn, will impact on entitlement to welfare and (the level of) state pension payments. Rates are levied on the self employed, the employed, and their respective employers."
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
And why should we care if people die because they have no Healthcare coverage? Why aren't they working to get coverage? Or if they are working a job that doesn't help to provide health insurance, then they should be saving some money each month in case of a health emergency. That isn't the fault of the rest of Americans who are doing what they should be to taking care of themselves.
No the government intervening more into the healthcare is against the constitutional powers of the government. It is also against the freedoms that I hold dear. The government should be taking less money from us in taxes, not more. Pretty much every one of the countries mentioned that has Universal Healthcare also has extremely high tax rates. As high as 50-60% of your income.
NOW YOU, AS A TAXPAYER ARE PAYING UP TO TWICE AS MUCH THAN YOU WOULD IF THE US WOULD HAVE A EUROPEAN STYLE SYSTEM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!
YOU ARE PAYING MORE!!! FOR LESS!! IT'S SIMPLE MATHS!!! MORE!! FOR LESS!!!!!
proof:
EACH of those countries takes more TAX out of their citizen's INCOME.
UK - 40% tax at the top
France - 52.75%
Germany - 45%
Sweden - 55%
Switzerland - 45.5%
Heck even Iceland I know takes over 50% at the highest level for income tax.
SO Why would I want my Taxes raised to pay for Universal Healthcare?
Yes you pay less per person then we do in the US, but there is a reason that they take more money out for income tax.
The last thing I want is a more socialistic country. The Government should be less involved in people's lives. So what if some people die because they were too stupid to either get a job or save up money if they had a job in case something bad happens.
YET THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER CHILD MORTALITY AND A HIGHER LIFE EXPECTANCY!! AND IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY READ THAT CHART THEN YOU WOULD UNDERTSTAND THE CITIZENS OF THOSE COUNTRIES PAY LESS MONEY FOR BETTER HEALTH CARE!!THE US SPENDS 15% OF ITS GDP ON SUBSTANDARD HEALTH CARE COMPARED TO ONLY 10% FRANCE SPENDS. 15 IS MORE THAN 10. I'M SORRY BUT THAT'S THE TRUTH!!!
Btw, you're suggesting that people should be kept from working because they're sick, something that can happen to anyone and is more costly than anyone can pay. There isn't something like a neutral person, costing nothing to society but also not contributing.
Why do you think the productivity rate in France is HIGHER than in the US?
Yes.And the size and COST of the USA Health Care system is the entire economy of CHINA!!!
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Causes of death in the developing world were dramatically different from those in the developed world, the report said. In industrialized nations deaths were most likely to result from babies being born too small or too early, while in the developing world about half of newborn deaths were from infection, tetanus and diarrhea.
So the primary reason for Infant mortality in the US is a result of Premature delivery and baby size. Some of the main causes of Premature delivery and small baby size are:
• Are pregnant with twins or higher order multiples
• Are younger than 17 or older than 35
• Are African American (17.4 percent of African American babies are born prematurely)
• Don't gain enough weight during your pregnancy
• Were underweight before you got pregnant
• Smoke, abuse alcohol, or use drugs (especially cocaine) during pregnancy
OK well lets look at those reason. The US has a signifcantly higher age of getting married and giving birth then other countries, so that automatically skews our data to higher mortality rates. We also have a larger African American population then Europe does. We have a population that is obsessed with being thin and so will not gain enough weight or started out at too low of a weight (see Nichole richie as an example). We have a problem with alcohol abuse (especially among uneducated people) and drug problems. And lastly we have a ton of people getting pregnant for the first time at an age older then 35 and then using invetro fertialization (I probably butchered that word) because they couldn't get pregnant. Invetro leads to much higher rates of multiple births. Which in turn leads to much lower birth weights and more instance of premature delivery. Which in turn leads to a higher Mortality Rate.
So yes our healthcare could actually be better then the other countries and still have higher infant mortality rates. That is not a good indicator of how good your healthcare system is, unless it is linked to specifcally infant mortality caused by lack of medical care. Which it is not.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
this thread scares me people pushing for socialism.
So you're saying other industrialized countries have no issues they have to deal with? Is that it?
There's no point in talking to you. You ignore perfectly good arguments and figures or try to refute them with things that make your country look even worse. I'm not sure what is blinding you. For Americas sake I hope it's not lack of a good education.
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I stated that the reason our "data" being measured there looks worse can be attributed to other factors not just the fact that our healthcare system is broken as you guys are trying to state.
You said that it shows our healthcare is poor because our infant mortality rate is really bad. I show you that our infant mortality rate is bad because of factors not related to our healthcare system and then you question my education and tell me that I am blind? Why because I don't believe in this socialist system that liberals are promoting? Why because I want to try to return to what made America great which is less government not more?
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Cabe, he has refuted your claims with facts, figures, and statistics....
You are the one not able to make a persuasive argument. I will wait for one from you (taps foot).
Waiting....
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I believe that the US should return to the pre-WW 2 days in which there was no employer provided health care, pension, or other benefits. The days when capitalists ruled the roost, if you became disabled on the job, and couldn't work, tough cookies, crawl under a rock and die. The days when what an industralist wanted, they got. They days where it was a dog eat dog world, every working class person for themself, devil take the hindmost.
That is why we now have IRA and 401K self funded retirement accounts. If you work at McDonalds and can't afford one, and get no matching funds, tough cookies, go crawl up a sewer and die in your old age. If you make enough money to sock away the maximum allowed contribution, and get the maximum allowed employer matching, and are educated enough to know how to invest it, you will do quite well in your retirement.
That is why employers now offer health savings accounts instead of health insurance. If you are in the 10% tax bracket, your taxable income is reduced by your health savings plan contributions, thereby providing you a 10% government subsidy. Much cheaper to corporate America then paying Blue Cross, and you get the freedom to make a market decision of how to spend your health savings account. Of course, if you work at a low paying job with no marginal tax rate, tough cookies. And if you work at a high paying job with a 34% marginal tax rate, the government subsidizes 34% of your health care costs. Can't afford health care, tough cookies, go crawl under a rock and die.
We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT regulating business. Let the capitalists make their profits, dump their toxic waste, manufacture unsafe products, etc. That is what this country was founded on, unbridled free market capitalism, Let the Buyer Beware. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT regulating trade between states, or with nations, let each state set it's own import/export duties. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT controling our borders, regulating airline travel, providing disaster relief to states other than ours. Let the state governments issue their own currency, we don't need BIG GOVERNMENT to regulate our money supply. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT to enforce school desegregation, let George Wallace stand in the door and bar admisssions to blacks, it's his States Right. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT for homeland security, let each state do it themselves. We don't need BIG GOVERNMENT to take our tax dollars to rebuild New Orleans, those people should be on their own.
It's my money and I have the right to decide who I help, and who I don't. And if I choose not to help anyone other than myself, tough cookies, they can just crawl under a rock and die. That is my right as an American!
After all, the Federalists lost didn't they, we are a Confederacy of states rights, right? The sooner the Constitution is thrown out the better, all it is now is a useless tool of the ACLU.
The USA was founded on freedom. NOT CAPITALISM. The Revolutionary Patriots dieing in the snow were NOT dieing for capitalism.
And whomever told you, and persuaded you, is a complete a-hole.
America is about FREEDOM, and a national health coverage system does not undermine or enhance freedom. It is consistent with the US Constitution to "promote the general welfare." See www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.preamble.html
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I'm curious. Those of you who so adamantly want national health care. Why do YOU PERSONALLY want it so bad?
You want someone to pay your bills for you?
Or you're an altruistic person who just wants to help others?
But wait...if you chose the "altruistic" answer then what about people like me? See, I haven't been to a doctor in about eight years. I don't run to the doctor ever time I get the sniffles and I am fortunate enough to have no serious medical problems that require ongoing care. So if your socialist, utopian health care system had been in place for the past decade it wouldn't have helped me at all. On the contrary, it would have taken money from me while I was getting nothing from it at all.
So you might be helping some people. But at the expense of others. Why should I have to pay for something I'm not using? Why should I have to pay for YOUR viagra?
Am I going to get a tax break in this utopian scheme if I don't actually use the national health care system? No? Then you know what I would do if we had socialist health care? I would go to see doctors even if I didn't need to. I would get prescriptions for fake conditions just to get my moneys worth. And then I would probably sell the drugs to the poor bastards who really need them but couldn't get them because they are on a waiting list behind people like me. It's just human nature.
If people CAN work the system they WILL work the system. And if I'm being forced to pay for something I WILL find a way to get my moneys worth out of it.
I stated that the reason our "data" being measured there looks worse can be attributed to other factors not just the fact that our healthcare system is broken as you guys are trying to state.
You said that it shows our healthcare is poor because our infant mortality rate is really bad. I show you that our infant mortality rate is bad because of factors not related to our healthcare system and then you question my education and tell me that I am blind? Why because I don't believe in this socialist system that liberals are promoting? Why because I want to try to return to what made America great which is less government not more?
There isn't anything I can refute. You don't give arguments or statistics. You don't give anything.if you don't ignore the data then you question whether or not it's biased. The factors that you summed up are the reasons for infant mortality, yes. What other reasons could there be?
"I sentence you to 50 years in a state penitentiary for murder."
"But your honor! The reason why I kill people is because I aim my gun and pull the trigger!"
What's next? Will you tell me low life expectency is because people get old and die?
Why don't you refute the high cost of the US system? The fact that independent studies simply say it's no good and could be much better for less money?
You suggest other countries have no issues such as the US has. Then what causes their infant mortality?
Frankly I don't care what anyone is. I myself am nothing, neither liberal or socialist or whatever. If there is a problem then you see what sollution works. Then you apply it. Simple as that.
If that gives the government more work, so be it.
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And letting government bullies tell us how to spend our money and which doctors we can and can't see and what medical treatment we can and can't get is the epitomy of freedom isn't it?
He said that America's Healthcare was the worst and cited infant mortality rates. I refuted that claim by showing that infant mortality rates can't be linked to quality healthcare in a cause and effect relationship. It is a coorelation and makes a nice talking point because everyone loves Babies and doesn't want them to die, but the fact remains that the quality of America's healthcare can not be linked to causing the higher infant moratlity rate that our country has.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
You're already paying for other people. Hence why you have a government at all. If you don't want that, buy a bunker in the mountains and wait for a nuclear winter. You could be paying less...
I myself am an altruistic person. I need little money and am willing to share what I have. Why? Because economics suggest it's better for society that more people can work. They WILL make up for their expenses. Why do you think so many countries use that system? Because they're filthy communists bent on world domination? Because they want to annoy Americans? Because they're actually not human but descendants from the Roswell alien? And do you honestly think those countries aren't economically competative?
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And remember that the Patriots were dying for freedom yes, but a particular freedom. The right to choose how their money was used and for what reasons. So yes the revolutionary war was about money.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
And letting government bullies tell us how to spend our money and which doctors we can and can't see and what medical treatment we can and can't get is the epitomy of freedom isn't it?
I can see whatever doctor I want. Whenever I want. I can select medical treatment as I wish. I can have an accident and have a choice not to be poor afterwards because I didn't make 6 figures a year.Now THAT's freedom...
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