I never said the US sucks. I said they should revise their health care policy.
With stating the US won more nobel prizes... Did you mean to say the rest of the world is dumb and backwards compared to the US? I'm sure you didn't.
I didn't compare the US to the rest of the world. I compared the industrialized country without universal health care to the many other ones that do have it. Not my fault that other economically large countries feel they are responsible for the wellbeing of their people and have universal health care.
You stated the US spent most on R&D (actually you only established that the US jad most nobel prize winners... but I'll humor you) and I proved you wrong.
You proved me wrong by comparing to multiple countries together. Show me one other country that spends more and then you have a victory. It isn't a fair comparison to combine them all and then compare their combined spending to the US.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Americans, the people, are great people. Great spirit. Great decency.
The US Constitution creates the best system of government in world history.
The USA health care system, contrary to all similar countries, is not merely bad but morally wrong. It is the American people who suffer under the US health care system.
Well then... If the American innovations are so amazing... Then why the hell can't they solve something as simple as a high infant mortality and a low life expectancy?
Surely with all the wonderfully ready to be applied research conducted by the Americans those problems should be easy to solve, especially considering what a strain they are on society. And they really would have an easy time doing it at a much lowercost than all those "socialist" countries, since they are bound to be less efficient with their universal health care...
Perhaps you should reread the WHO's conclusions, since they took everything into account. Including quality and satisfaction.
Madace are you Fing kidding bringing up your infant mortality crap again, did you even read my post/the article i posted in it?
your arguement means crap when you ignore the facts left and right. Your worse then Michael Moore, both of you make up crap to try and push your point that will never work here. Please stop wasting everyones time.
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
Well then... If the American innovations are so amazing... Then why the hell can't they solve something as simple as a high infant mortality and a low life expectancy?
Surely with all the wonderfully ready to be applied research conducted by the Americans those problems should be easy to solve, especially considering what a strain they are on society. And they really would have an easy time doing it at a much lowercost than all those "socialist" countries, since they are bound to be less efficient with their universal health care...
Perhaps you should reread the WHO's conclusions, since they took everything into account. Including quality and satisfaction.
Madace are you Fing kidding bringing up your infant mortality crap again, did you even read my post/the article i posted in it?
your arguement means crap when you ignore the facts left and right. Your worse then Michael Moore, both of you make up crap to try and push your point that will never work here. Please stop wasting everyones time.
Infant mortality and life expectancy are both globally accepted indicators of health quality. Those figures are used by governments to determine policy and used by companies too, btw.
But it doesn't matter, as the WHO ranking takes this into consideration. If you don't accept their rankings then you shouldn't join this discussion which is largely revoling around that ranking, as you know undoubtitly why the US has a lot better real ranking than the WHO rankings suggest.
Cabe:
My objective is not victory. My objective is that you understand you have been lied to, were wrong and take alternative health care systems into account in future decision making (such as voting). Like I said twice before. I'm not comparing countries, I'm comparing health care systems.
You decided to drag in research into the discussion, claiming (iwht top nobel prize winners...) that the US system creates the world highest R&D spendings. Untrue.
If you're poor, you don't have it, or you have to resort to going to one of those nasty county hospitals
Public Health Care:
Everyone has access, even the street bums.
You still pay for it (higher taxes), including paying for those who don't pay themselves (i.e., the street bums), and it may end up costing you as much as you'd pay for private care in a free society.
"Hallway medicine". Meaning you can get used to waiting in line for treatment for hours, and if you need a special operation, you could be in a waiting line for several months, maybe even die while waiting for that all important treatment.
Really, public healthcare is about the same as "public" anything. Would you like to live in public housing, travel by public transportation, use a public bathroom?
It's really quite simple: Private Heatlh Care: Less time waiting in line Proven to be untrue. Best treatment and medical care in the world Proven to be untrue. Costly Yea, that's right. If you're poor, you don't have it, or you have to resort to going to one of those nasty county hospitals Indeed. Public Health Care: Everyone has access, even the street bums. Yup. You still pay for it (higher taxes), including paying for those who don't pay themselves (i.e., the street bums), and it may end up costing you as much as you'd pay for private care in a free society. Untrue. Proven. "Hallway medicine". Meaning you can get used to waiting in line for treatment for hours, and if you need a special operation, you could be in a waiting line for several months, maybe even die while waiting for that all important treatment. That's complete and utter bullshit. Really, public healthcare is about the same as "public" anything. Would you like to live in public housing, travel by public transportation, use a public bathroom? Depends how well each of them are run. I won't decide on how good something is simply because it has the label "public" or "private".
If you want to join a discussion about a movie, first read the rest of the discussion and maybe, just maybe read up on the basics of what is in the movie.
Infant mortality and life expectancy are both globally accepted indicators of health quality. Those figures are used by governments to determine policy and used by companies too, btw. But it doesn't matter, as the WHO ranking takes this into consideration. If you don't accept their rankings then you shouldn't join this discussion which is largely revoling around that ranking, as you know undoubtedly why the US has a lot better real ranking than the WHO rankings suggest.
They are accepted but flawed, just because government and companies use it doesnt mean its a good indicator. Just look at BMI, any bodybuilder is going to be view as obese or morbidly obese.
My article also pointed out why that data is even more horribly flawed and would appreciate if you stop trying to use it anymore.
As for the WHO data dont know havnt look at it enough yet so i have no problem with those numbers.
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
It's really quite simple: Private Heatlh Care: Less time waiting in line Proven to be untrue. Best treatment and medical care in the world Proven to be untrue. Costly Yea, that's right. If you're poor, you don't have it, or you have to resort to going to one of those nasty county hospitals Indeed. Public Health Care: Everyone has access, even the street bums. Yup. You still pay for it (higher taxes), including paying for those who don't pay themselves (i.e., the street bums), and it may end up costing you as much as you'd pay for private care in a free society. Untrue. Proven. "Hallway medicine". Meaning you can get used to waiting in line for treatment for hours, and if you need a special operation, you could be in a waiting line for several months, maybe even die while waiting for that all important treatment. That's complete and utter bullshit. Really, public healthcare is about the same as "public" anything. Would you like to live in public housing, travel by public transportation, use a public bathroom? Depends how well each of them are run. I won't decide on how good something is simply because it has the label "public" or "private".
If you want to join a discussion about a movie, first read the rest of the discussion and maybe, just maybe read up on the basics of what is in the movie.
Ah, your view of public healthcare being superior to private healthcare is crap. I have known healthcare workers who have worked and lived in the U.K. before coming to the U.S., and there is a world of difference.
Fact is, when folks want cheap free healthcare, they sometimes cross the border from New York to Canada. When folks want serious quality healthcare (i.e., heart operations and such), the cross the border from Canada into the U.S. Even if it means paying. Public healthcare is like those county hospitals; run down, crappy, and the last place on earth you'd want to be for treatment.
There's a reason that the very wealthy and heads of states will travel to the U.S. when their health is seriously in decline. I never hear of some world leader who needs a triple bypass going to Canada for the procedure.
There is a deeper reason for the difference in quality. When you reward someone for their efforts, they tend to be more inclined to overachieve, do better work, invest more in their profession, etc...
But, when you put someone on the static public payroll and ration out their equipment and supplies, then it's just another ho-hum bummed out work experience.
Public healthcare (or public "anything") can never compare to private efforts.
Infant mortality and life expectancy are both globally accepted indicators of health quality. Those figures are used by governments to determine policy and used by companies too, btw. But it doesn't matter, as the WHO ranking takes this into consideration. If you don't accept their rankings then you shouldn't join this discussion which is largely revoling around that ranking, as you know undoubtedly why the US has a lot better real ranking than the WHO rankings suggest.
They are accepted but flawed, just because government and companies use it doesnt mean its a good indicator. Just look at BMI, any bodybuilder is going to be view as obese or morbidly obese.
My article also pointed out why that data is even more horribly flawed and would appreciate if you stop trying to use it anymore.
Because some index used for something completely different (BMI) is flawed (not when applied correctly, btw) you suggest the tools for deciding policies for billions of people are flawed?
I'm sorry, but I suggest you go study statistics and demographics if you want to prove the US government (and a shitload of other ones too, including EU survey agencies, the UN, ...) wrong. I'm sure they'll welcome your help in pointing out how they are wrong.
Originally posted by Fugnudz
Originally posted by MadAce
Originally posted by Fugnudz
It's really quite simple: Private Heatlh Care: Less time waiting in line Proven to be untrue. Best treatment and medical care in the world Proven to be untrue. Costly Yea, that's right. If you're poor, you don't have it, or you have to resort to going to one of those nasty county hospitals Indeed. Public Health Care: Everyone has access, even the street bums. Yup. You still pay for it (higher taxes), including paying for those who don't pay themselves (i.e., the street bums), and it may end up costing you as much as you'd pay for private care in a free society. Untrue. Proven. "Hallway medicine". Meaning you can get used to waiting in line for treatment for hours, and if you need a special operation, you could be in a waiting line for several months, maybe even die while waiting for that all important treatment. That's complete and utter bullshit. Really, public healthcare is about the same as "public" anything. Would you like to live in public housing, travel by public transportation, use a public bathroom? Depends how well each of them are run. I won't decide on how good something is simply because it has the label "public" or "private".
If you want to join a discussion about a movie, first read the rest of the discussion and maybe, just maybe read up on the basics of what is in the movie.
Ah, your view of public healthcare being superior to private healthcare is crap. I have known healthcare workers who have worked and lived in the U.K. before coming to the U.S., and there is a world of difference.
Fact is, when folks want cheap free healthcare, they sometimes cross the border from New York to Canada. When folks want serious quality healthcare (i.e., heart operations and such), the cross the border from Canada into the U.S. Even if it means paying. Public healthcare is like those county hospitals; run down, crappy, and the last place on earth you'd want to be for treatment.
There's a reason that the very wealthy and heads of states will travel to the U.S. when their health is seriously in decline. I never hear of some world leader who needs a triple bypass going to Canada for the procedure.
There is a deeper reason for the difference in quality. When you reward someone for their efforts, they tend to be more inclined to overachieve, do better work, invest more in their profession, etc...
But, when you put someone on the static public payroll and ration out their equipment and supplies, then it's just another ho-hum bummed out work experience.
Public healthcare (or public "anything") can never compare to private efforts.
All of your unfunded and unproven "arguments" have been proven to be wrong in the previous pages of this thread. IF you seriously doubt public health care then I suggest you visit any hospital in my country, or the Netherlands, or Spain or France. They're all quite efficient, well-equiped, fast (no waiting times, at least when I visited) and reliable. Not to mention cheap.
I've proven how public health care countries spend more on R&D aznd I've linked to how the WHO rankings (which you didn't try to refute, thus accept) takes quality into its calculations.
In case you were wondering, docters (and nurses) in my country receive very well wages, as they say themselves. Of course they always want more. But perhaps we don't quite want to spend as much as the US on health care.
Please feel freee to rejoin the conversation when you have cast of your bias or are willing to show some untested proof for your arguments. Be sure to read the rest of the thread before you present them.
The problem with the U.S. Healthcare(I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not), is that it is expensive. But what many people don't understand, is why it is expensive.
The two biggest reasons. Medicaid/Medicare(A form of public healthcare), and Medical Insurance. All the lawsuits against doctors has caused the insurance to go astronomically high, which in turn means the medical industry must charge higher fee's to pay for the insurance.
Privatized healthcare is the most efficient and costless form of healthcare. Government has been proven time and time again to be absolutely incompetent, anything they get involved with, they screw up.
Public healthcare is not costless. Everytime I got a paycheck, there was a chunk taken out for medicare. I don't use medicare, I've only been to the hospital once in my life. I actually take care of my health and don't run to the hospital every chance I get.
Even moreso, I do not enjoy the fact that if I decide to not be a governmental leech, I must practically sell a kidney to pay for a short hospital visit, and then still have to owe them. Back before the government started getting involved in welfare medical care, things were actually affordable.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Now, for the finishing blow, let us look at researc hother than mostly theorethical develoments, like the ones nobel prize winners persue. Not that I want to downsize their wonderful accomplishments. Top 10 pharma companies:
Country Company Sales ($m) Growth (%) Market Share (%)
European market share: 24,5% American market share: 19,7% Europe has a larger health industry than the US. You know what? Let's make it easy. Let's look at all major pharma companies.
Rank 2004 Company Country Healthcare Revenue 2004 (USD millions) Healthcare R&D 2004 (USD millions) Net Income/ (Loss) 2004 (USD millions) Employees 2004
Universal health care countries: 55,584 billion dollars. Non-Universal Health Care country: 34,285 billion dollars.
In conclusion: Those evil socialist countries with universal health care... spend more money on Research and Develoment than the USA.
OH wow are you really going to stoop that low? To compare the rest of the world combined to the US? That is just plain idiotic. I guess the US sucks huh they are only providing 38% of the whole world's research and development and are only what about 4% of the world's population?
Yeah it's pretty pathetic. I'm going to stop arguing with him, no point of it.
The US has 20 of the top 50 companies for medical research and doesn't have socialized healthcare. Luxembourg doesn't even have a single top 50 company and has socialized healthcare. Clearly the US healthcare system is superior.
Originally posted by MadAce Because some index used for something completely different (BMI) is flawed (not when applied correctly, btw) you suggest the tools for deciding policies for billions of people are flawed? I'm sorry, but I suggest you go study statistics and demographics if you want to prove the US government (and a shitload of other ones too, including EU survey agencies, the UN, ...) wrong. I'm sure they'll welcome your help in pointing out how they are wrong.
No sir BMI is just another well known example of something commmonly used in the health care system that is flawed.
As for infant mortality I wasnt the one that said it had problems........ let me see again, oh yah it was the president and ceo of the red freaking cross, she is a member of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology, oh and lets not forget she has served as director of the National Institutes of Health.
I think she might know a tad more then you or I sir on this issue.
Have a nice day sir.
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
I've been trying to stay out of this thread now because this stuff makes me almost psychotic it pisses me off so much.
But MadAce, why do you want to try to tell Americans how to handle health care when you aren't even an American. It's none of your business. Of course this is just a stupid thread on a gaming site so it will have no impact what-so-ever. But still, why put so much energy into an argument that doesn't even concern you. I don't give a damn what Belgium's health care system is like and wouldn't spend one second trying to convince your countrymen that they should change it.
One thing I can tell you is that no matter how rosy a picture you paint there are many, many Americans who will always resist pushing our country further into socialism. It's a philosophy based on individualism and independance and freedom...and apparantly it is, as we are, quite foreign to you.
Of course we also have our Michael Moores. That stupid, fat hypocrit.
....ah, I have to stop now because I'm getting too angry again.
The problem with the U.S. Health-care(I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not), is that it is expensive. But what many people don't understand, is why it is expensive. The two biggest reasons. Medicaid/Medicare(A form of public health-care), and Medical Insurance. All the lawsuits against doctors has caused the insurance to go astronomically high, which in turn means the medical industry must charge higher fee's to pay for the insurance. Privatized health-care is the most efficient and costless form of health-care. Government has been proven time and time again to be absolutely incompetent, anything they get involved with, they screw up. Public health-care is not costless. Every-time I got a paycheck, there was a chunk taken out for Medicare. I don't use Medicare, I've only been to the hospital once in my life. I actually take care of my health and don't run to the hospital every chance I get. Even moreso, I do not enjoy the fact that if I decide to not be a governmental leech, I must practically sell a kidney to pay for a short hospital visit, and then still have to owe them. Back before the government started getting involved in welfare medical care, things were actually affordable.
Yup tried that argument back on page 2 or 3........ Nope, they think every country can just pay the same amount for the same goods.
Why is it different, because are government is different. In America we sue for everything, have big business in everything we do, and are law makers make sure the prices stay higher(its good for big pharma). Universal health care would be different here because, well are country is different.
I know its a shocker, but France and the US are different.
Yet no matter how many times you say it, they just don't believe you........
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
I've been trying to stay out of this thread now because this stuff makes me almost psychotic it pisses me off so much. But MadAce, why do you want to try to tell Americans how to handle health care when you aren't even an American. It's none of your business. Of course this is just a stupid thread on a gaming site so it will have no impact what-so-ever. But still, why put so much energy into an argument that doesn't even concern you. I don't give a damn what Belgium's health care system is like and wouldn't spend one second trying to convince your countrymen that they should change it. One thing I can tell you is that no matter how rosy a picture you paint there are many, many Americans who will always resist pushing our country further into socialism. It's a philosophy based on individualism and independance and freedom...and apparantly it is, as we are, quite foreign to you. Of course we also have our Michael Moores. That stupid, fat hypocrit. ....ah, I have to stop now because I'm getting too angry again.
The reasons why I venture in this debate are the following:
I've seen it proven more than once the American health care system is flawed. So I know I'm right. For rational people that little WHO ranking should ring a bell, but I'm dealing with "patriots".
I love debating, not because I believe that people (especially American patriots) will change their minds or will consider the truth in someone elses opinion (how funded as they might be) but because it makes me rethink my own ideas, challenge them and eventually makes me improve them. It's called evolution.
It's pretty simple. You have been brought up to think you're superior in all fields. And you probably are, except in a little thing like health care. The US is the richest country in the world (not the richest market, but don't let that push you down) and should be able to take care of its people better than evil communist states bent on world destruction like France. Yet the US is unable to do that.
In reaction to this inescapable truth you turn to makings things black and white. Freedom versus socialism and other crap.
You act like socialism (an ideology that hasn't been in active use in any industrialzed country for decades now) is the opposite of freedom:
Press freedom (so called socialist countries, leaning the ones with universal health care, are blue):
N° Country Note
1 Finland 0,50
- Iceland 0,50
- Netherlands 0,50
- Norway 0,50
5 Denmark 1,00
- Trinidad and Tobago 1,00
7 Belgium 1,17
8 Germany 1,33
9 Sweden 1,50
10 Canada 1,83
11 Latvia 2,25
12 Czech Republic 2,50
- Estonia 2,50
- Slovakia 2,50
- Switzerland 2,50
16 Austria 2,75
17 Ireland 2,83
- Lithuania 2,83
- New Zealand 2,83
20 Slovenia 3,00
21 Hungary 3,33
- Jamaica 3,33
- South Africa 3,33
24 Costa Rica 3,83
25 Uruguay 4,00
26 France 4,17
27 United Kingdom 4,25
28 Portugal 5,17
29 Benin 5,25
30 Timor-Leste 5,50
31 Greece 6,00
- United States of America (American territory) 6,00
33 Poland 6,17
34 Albania 6,50
- Bulgaria 6,50
- Nicaragua 6,50
37 Bosnia and Herzegovina 6,83
- Chile 6,83
- El Salvador 6,83
40 Paraguay 7,17
41 Mauritius 7,25
42 Ecuador 7,67
- Spain 7,67
44 Israel (Israeli territory) 8,00
- Japan 8,00
46 Madagascar 8,17
47 Cape Verde 8,25
48 Ghana 8,75
49 South Korea 9,17
50 Australia 9,25
51 Bolivia 9,67
- Macedonia 9,67
53 Italy 9,75
- Panama 9,75
55 Peru 10,25
56 Hong-Kong 11,00
- Mali 11,00
- Namibia 11,00
59 Fiji 11,50
- Romania 11,50
61 Taïwan 12,00
62 Botswana 13,00
63 Congo 14,00
- Mozambique 14,00
65 Honduras 14,17
66 Senegal 14,50
67 Argentina 15,17
68 Niger 15,75
69 Croatia 16,50
- Tanzania 16,50
71 Brazil 16,75
72 Dominican Republic 17,00
73 Georgia 17,33
74 Mexico 17,67
75 Lesotho 17,75
76 Burkina Faso 18,00
77 Gambia 18,25
- Mongolia 18,25
79 Comoros 18,50
- Kenya 18,50
81 Cambodia 19,50
82 Thailand 19,67
83 Cyprus 20,83
84 Malawi 21,00
85 Serbia and Montenegro 21,33
86 Zambia 23,25
87 Sierra Leone 23,50
88 Chad 24,00
89 Sri Lanka 24,83
90 Armenia 25,17
91 Uganda 25,75
92 Burundi 26,25
93 Seychelles 26,75
94 Moldova 27,00
95 Togo 27,50
96 Venezuela 27,83
97 Angola 28,00
98 Cameroon 30,50
99 Guatemala 30,83
100 Haiti 31,00
101 Gabon 31,25
102 Kuwait 31,33
103 Nigeria 31,50
104 Kyrgyzstan 32,00
- Malaysia 32,00
106 Lebanon 32,50
107 Central African Republic 32,75
108 Algeria 33,00
109 Guinea 33,17
110 Egypt 34,25
- Indonesia 34,25
- Rwanda 34,25
113 Azerbaijan 34,50
- Tajikistan 34,50
115 Qatar 35,00
- Turkey 35,00
117 Bahrain 35,17
118 Guinea-Bissau 35,25
- Philippines 35,25
120 Djibouti 35,50
121 Mauritania 36,67
122 United Arab Emirates 37,00
- Jordan 37,00
124 Ethiopia 37,50
- Iraq 37,50
- Swaziland 37,50
127 Democratic Republic of Congo 38,50
128 India 39,00
- Pakistan 39,00
130 Palestinian Authority 39,25
131 Morocco 39,67
132 Liberia 40,00
- Ukraine 40,00
134 Afghanistan 40,17
135 United States of America (in Iraq) 41,00
136 Yemen 41,83
137 Côte d’Ivoire 42,17
138 Kazakhstan 42,50
139 Equatorial Guinea 44,75
140 Somalia 45,00
141 Zimbabwe 45,50
142 Sudan 45,75
143 Bangladesh 46,50
144 Singapore 47,33
145 Maldives 47,50
146 Israel (Occupied Territories) 49,00
147 Colombia 49,17
148 Russia 49,50
149 Tunisia 50,83
150 Nepal 51,50
151 Belarus 52,00
152 Oman 57,75
153 Libya 60,00
154 Uzbekistan 61,50
155 Syria 67,50
156 Saudi Arabia 71,50
157 Bhutan 77,33
158 Turkmenistan 82,83
159 Vietnam 89,17
160 Iran 89,33
161 China 91,25
162 Eritrea 91,50
163 Laos 94,83
164 Burma 95,50
165 Cuba 97,83
166 North Korea 99,50
"Special situation of the United States and Israel The ranking distinguishes behaviour at home and abroad in the cases of the United States and Israel. They are ranked in 31st and 44th positions respectively as regards respect for freedom of expression on their own territory, but they fall to the 135th and 146th positions as regards behaviour beyond their borders.
The Israeli army’s repeated abuses against journalists in the occupied territories and the US army’s responsibility in the death of several reporters during the war in Iraq constitute unacceptable behaviour by two nations that never stop stressing their commitment to freedom of expression."
Annual reports of police brutality (per 100,000 people)
United States 92.5 United Kingdom 6.0 France 0.7
Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
United States 4.2 United Kingdom 1.0 Germany 0.8 Denmark 0.7 Sweden 0.6 Japan 0.4 Netherlands 0.4
(in fact, 25% of all prisoners in the world are American, while it only holds 4% of the global population)
News as a percent of all TV programming:
Denmark 43% Sweden 35 Canada 32 Netherlands 25 Germany 20 United Kingdom 17 Japan 6 United States 2
Percent of employees fired for cause:
United States 52% European Community 43
Voter participation:
Germany 87% Sweden 86 Norway 83 Netherlands 80 Finland 76 United Kingdom 75 Canada 75 United States 49
Average number of national referenda per year:
Switzerland 169 Australia 18 Denmark 11 France 10 Ireland 8 Italy 4 Sweden 3 Norway 1 United Kingdom 1 Canada 0 Finland 0 Germany 0 Japan 0 Netherlands 0 United States 0
United States 53 United Kingdom 42 France 16 Canada 5 Germany 3 Japan 2 Sweden 2 Netherlands 1 Norway 1
The United Nations Human Freedom Index (0 = least freedom, 40 = most freedom. More.):
Sweden 38 Denmark 38 Netherlands 37 Austria 36 Finland 36 France 35 Germany 35 Canada 34 Switzerland 34 Australia 33 United States 33 Japan 32 United Kingdom 32
I think the US is an awesome country from which the rest of the world can learn a great deal. Which they do. And some things shouldn't be learned from the US.
Hence why its citizens have a larger responsability than they realize.
I've been trying to stay out of this thread now because this stuff makes me almost psychotic it pisses me off so much. But MadAce, why do you want to try to tell Americans how to handle health care when you aren't even an American. It's none of your business. Of course this is just a stupid thread on a gaming site so it will have no impact what-so-ever. But still, why put so much energy into an argument that doesn't even concern you. I don't give a damn what Belgium's health care system is like and wouldn't spend one second trying to convince your countrymen that they should change it. One thing I can tell you is that no matter how rosy a picture you paint there are many, many Americans who will always resist pushing our country further into socialism. It's a philosophy based on individualism and independance and freedom...and apparantly it is, as we are, quite foreign to you. Of course we also have our Michael Moores. That stupid, fat hypocrit. ....ah, I have to stop now because I'm getting too angry again.
The reasons why I venture in this debate are the following:
I've seen it proven more than once the American health care system is flawed. So I know I'm right. For rational people that little WHO ranking should ring a bell, but I'm dealing with "patriots".
I love debating, not because I believe that people (especially American patriots) will change their minds or will consider the truth in someone elses opinion (how funded as they might be) but because it makes me rethink my own ideas, challenge them and eventually makes me improve them. It's called evolution.
It's pretty simple. You have been brought up to think you're superior in all fields. And you probably are, except in a little thing like health care. The US is the richest country in the world (not the richest market, but don't let that push you down) and should be able to take care of its people better than evil communist states bent on world destruction like France. Yet the US is unable to do that.
In reaction to this inescapable truth you turn to makings things black and white. Freedom versus socialism and other crap.
You act like socialism (an ideology that hasn't been in active use in any industrialzed country for decades now) is the opposite of freedom:
Press freedom (so called socialist countries, leaning the ones with universal health care, are blue):
N° Country Note
1 Finland 0,50
- Iceland 0,50
- Netherlands 0,50
- Norway 0,50
5 Denmark 1,00
- Trinidad and Tobago 1,00
7 Belgium 1,17
8 Germany 1,33
9 Sweden 1,50
10 Canada 1,83
11 Latvia 2,25
12 Czech Republic 2,50
- Estonia 2,50
- Slovakia 2,50
- Switzerland 2,50
16 Austria 2,75
17 Ireland 2,83
- Lithuania 2,83
- New Zealand 2,83
20 Slovenia 3,00
21 Hungary 3,33
- Jamaica 3,33
- South Africa 3,33
24 Costa Rica 3,83
25 Uruguay 4,00
26 France 4,17
27 United Kingdom 4,25
28 Portugal 5,17
29 Benin 5,25
30 Timor-Leste 5,50
31 Greece 6,00
- United States of America (American territory) 6,00
33 Poland 6,17
34 Albania 6,50
- Bulgaria 6,50
- Nicaragua 6,50
37 Bosnia and Herzegovina 6,83
- Chile 6,83
- El Salvador 6,83
40 Paraguay 7,17
41 Mauritius 7,25
42 Ecuador 7,67
- Spain 7,67
44 Israel (Israeli territory) 8,00
- Japan 8,00
46 Madagascar 8,17
47 Cape Verde 8,25
48 Ghana 8,75
49 South Korea 9,17
50 Australia 9,25
51 Bolivia 9,67
- Macedonia 9,67
53 Italy 9,75
- Panama 9,75
55 Peru 10,25
56 Hong-Kong 11,00
- Mali 11,00
- Namibia 11,00
59 Fiji 11,50
- Romania 11,50
61 Taïwan 12,00
62 Botswana 13,00
63 Congo 14,00
- Mozambique 14,00
65 Honduras 14,17
66 Senegal 14,50
67 Argentina 15,17
68 Niger 15,75
69 Croatia 16,50
- Tanzania 16,50
71 Brazil 16,75
72 Dominican Republic 17,00
73 Georgia 17,33
74 Mexico 17,67
75 Lesotho 17,75
76 Burkina Faso 18,00
77 Gambia 18,25
- Mongolia 18,25
79 Comoros 18,50
- Kenya 18,50
81 Cambodia 19,50
82 Thailand 19,67
83 Cyprus 20,83
84 Malawi 21,00
85 Serbia and Montenegro 21,33
86 Zambia 23,25
87 Sierra Leone 23,50
88 Chad 24,00
89 Sri Lanka 24,83
90 Armenia 25,17
91 Uganda 25,75
92 Burundi 26,25
93 Seychelles 26,75
94 Moldova 27,00
95 Togo 27,50
96 Venezuela 27,83
97 Angola 28,00
98 Cameroon 30,50
99 Guatemala 30,83
100 Haiti 31,00
101 Gabon 31,25
102 Kuwait 31,33
103 Nigeria 31,50
104 Kyrgyzstan 32,00
- Malaysia 32,00
106 Lebanon 32,50
107 Central African Republic 32,75
108 Algeria 33,00
109 Guinea 33,17
110 Egypt 34,25
- Indonesia 34,25
- Rwanda 34,25
113 Azerbaijan 34,50
- Tajikistan 34,50
115 Qatar 35,00
- Turkey 35,00
117 Bahrain 35,17
118 Guinea-Bissau 35,25
- Philippines 35,25
120 Djibouti 35,50
121 Mauritania 36,67
122 United Arab Emirates 37,00
- Jordan 37,00
124 Ethiopia 37,50
- Iraq 37,50
- Swaziland 37,50
127 Democratic Republic of Congo 38,50
128 India 39,00
- Pakistan 39,00
130 Palestinian Authority 39,25
131 Morocco 39,67
132 Liberia 40,00
- Ukraine 40,00
134 Afghanistan 40,17
135 United States of America (in Iraq) 41,00
136 Yemen 41,83
137 Côte d’Ivoire 42,17
138 Kazakhstan 42,50
139 Equatorial Guinea 44,75
140 Somalia 45,00
141 Zimbabwe 45,50
142 Sudan 45,75
143 Bangladesh 46,50
144 Singapore 47,33
145 Maldives 47,50
146 Israel (Occupied Territories) 49,00
147 Colombia 49,17
148 Russia 49,50
149 Tunisia 50,83
150 Nepal 51,50
151 Belarus 52,00
152 Oman 57,75
153 Libya 60,00
154 Uzbekistan 61,50
155 Syria 67,50
156 Saudi Arabia 71,50
157 Bhutan 77,33
158 Turkmenistan 82,83
159 Vietnam 89,17
160 Iran 89,33
161 China 91,25
162 Eritrea 91,50
163 Laos 94,83
164 Burma 95,50
165 Cuba 97,83
166 North Korea 99,50
"Special situation of the United States and Israel The ranking distinguishes behaviour at home and abroad in the cases of the United States and Israel. They are ranked in 31st and 44th positions respectively as regards respect for freedom of expression on their own territory, but they fall to the 135th and 146th positions as regards behaviour beyond their borders.
The Israeli army’s repeated abuses against journalists in the occupied territories and the US army’s responsibility in the death of several reporters during the war in Iraq constitute unacceptable behaviour by two nations that never stop stressing their commitment to freedom of expression."
Annual reports of police brutality (per 100,000 people)
United States 92.5 United Kingdom 6.0 France 0.7
Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
United States 4.2 United Kingdom 1.0 Germany 0.8 Denmark 0.7 Sweden 0.6 Japan 0.4 Netherlands 0.4
(in fact, 25% of all prisoners in the world are American, while it only holds 4% of the global population)
News as a percent of all TV programming:
Denmark 43% Sweden 35 Canada 32 Netherlands 25 Germany 20 United Kingdom 17 Japan 6 United States 2
Percent of employees fired for cause:
United States 52% European Community 43
Voter participation:
Germany 87% Sweden 86 Norway 83 Netherlands 80 Finland 76 United Kingdom 75 Canada 75 United States 49
Average number of national referenda per year:
Switzerland 169 Australia 18 Denmark 11 France 10 Ireland 8 Italy 4 Sweden 3 Norway 1 United Kingdom 1 Canada 0 Finland 0 Germany 0 Japan 0 Netherlands 0 United States 0
United States 53 United Kingdom 42 France 16 Canada 5 Germany 3 Japan 2 Sweden 2 Netherlands 1 Norway 1
The United Nations Human Freedom Index (0 = least freedom, 40 = most freedom. More.):
Sweden 38 Denmark 38 Netherlands 37 Austria 36 Finland 36 France 35 Germany 35 Canada 34 Switzerland 34 Australia 33 United States 33 Japan 32 United Kingdom 32
I think the US is an awesome country from which the rest of the world can learn a great deal. Which they do. And some things shouldn't be learned from the US.
Hence why its citizens have a larger responsability than they realize.
From the link you posted with all those "statistics" :
"The following statistics are a 1991 comparison of the United States with Northern Europe, Japan and Canada. The comparison is especially revealing because all these nations are more liberaland democratic than we are. Their voter turn-outs are 50 percent higher; their corporate lobbying systems are much less developed; their taxes are higher, their safety nets larger, their societies more equal, their labor unions stronger."
Rofl. Yeah, that source isn't biased at all. Plus it's 16 years old.
I just note you were unable to refute the statistics on press freedom by Reporters Without Borders.
I'm just pointing out that I do consider my country to be free, despite its so called "evil socialism".
AFAIK you didn't provide a link for it, but i went to the reporters without borders website, where I found that the US is listed as having a "Satisfactory situation", a condition it shared with France, Spain, and Italy, all socialist paradises (lol). In contrast, Cuba, another socialist paradise, is listed as having a "very serious situation." Go figure.
And no one here called socialism "evil". I frankly don't care if you're socialist or not, but I do object to you forcing it upon others.
Ok MadAce, let me apologize for questioning why you bother debating this. That was a little silly of me but like I said I get highly agitated over topics like this. I understand the love of debate. And this thread is no worse than anything else on these forums. If you want to discuss this topic it is not my place to tell you you shouldn't.
But I think there is something very fundamental that you are failing to grasp. Something which is deeply ingrained in a great many Americans.
It's like this:
Even if you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that socialist systems allow governments to much more efficiently manage and control their populations.....a lot of Americans simply don't want to be managed and controled by their government. No more than is absolutely necessary at any rate.
Of course our government does already manage us and control us in various ways. But that is not a good argument for giving in to even more bureaucratic control over our lives. I would even go so far as to say that resisting the degradation of our freedom is the defining charactaristic of Americans....but if i said that some other American, Michael Moore want-to-be would probably attack me for speaking on his/her behalf....so I won't say it.
I wish bad things on Michael Moore. Why should I be taxed (pay for) someone else's health care?
Here is another question for ya... Why are some Americans such stingy, cheap bast*rds when it comes to a national health care system but are willing to let the government piss billions of dollars per month away on a failed war?
It's always fun to watch both sides skirt around the fundamental point. The majority of US citizens aren't interested in taking care of those "less fortunate" in their society. This isn't good or bad, it's just the way it is. The US mindset is very clear cut on this issue, and understanding it will help you non-US folks understand the issue more clearly.
The US belief is very simple: we all have equal opportunity to become successful -- if you didn't and can't afford your own healthcare as a result, well... tough luck for you. You should have worked harder, like I did. There's no such thing as "less fortunate".
Now a lot of US posters will have troubles expressing that directly, so you'll see things like "we believe in independence and individualism". When they say that, the above is what they mean. They believe that we all had an equal chance here and they're not responsible for the mistakes and failures of others to take advantage of those chances. And they'll be damned if they'll be forced to pay for those folks who failed to take advantage of those chances. US society believes itself to be very much a "pay your own way" society, even when it comes to the fundamentals.
So posting stats about better healthcare, or cheaper healthcare, or any other such approach is kind of futile. A typical US poster doesn't care if it's cheaper, or better (or, for that matter, if it's more expensive, or worse). All they care about is that you are asking them to pay for someone else who didn't pull their own weight, and that's fundamentally anti-American. This isn't exclusive to healthcare -- you'll see a simliar attitude reflected in most US social systems and government policies.
Now for most of Europe and other western nations, this seems... harsh. It looks like an unwillingness to help out your fellow man, a practically sadistic lack of empathy towards those less fortunate than ourselves. But from a US perspective, we all start out on equal footing, so there's no such thing as someone "less fortunate" than you. If they're in a crappy situation, they got there by choice.
This all stems from one of the biggest misconceptions in modern western culture... that US culture is "just like" other western culture. It isn't. Now, agreeably, we are "all human", and so US humans have all the fundamental traits as any human you've met anywhere else, be it China, Sweden, or points in between. But US culture is very, *very* different than western European culture, and it's important not to be fooled otherwise. The differences between a US mentality and a western European mentality are huge, on the order of the differences with Iran or China or any other particularly foreign culture you might choose to compare against. Don't let the surface similarities deceive you. Again, this isn't intended in a positive or negative light. It is, hopefully, a neutral observation.
Nezroy makes an incredibly good point, and wish to compliment his objectivity and elaborate.
I fully recognize that the American health care system is in dire trouble, I work within it and see the horrors every single day. Medicare is likewise on its way to implosion.
However, the thought of the government taking my money to support someone else who has not earned such money is vile to me. It is wrong and evil to me. MadAce, I know we have debated good and evil in the past, but understand this from my perspective:
I have, since I was a young man, worked and worked hard for my money. I see real value in my money, as a representation of my worth and my honor in society. Every penny I own I have earned, and no one can deny me that. I have encountered, through my job and my volunteer work, a vast segment of society that does not believe it needs to work, but is capable of doing so. I encounter people who believe that I, by virtue of my ability, am entirely responsible for dragging them out of the gutter or feeding their children. That I, through the curse of my own ability and worth, must work hard that they not work at all. You cannot imagine how horrid a thought it is, that any one of my labors should support or assist a section of the population that I hate beyond all things, that I believe drags my nation down.
Further, I believe that over-concern for this segment of society has ruined my nation. The welfare system here is broken, completely. It allows a form of parasitic living I find alien and wrong and impossible to tolerate. It has bred and is overrun with corruption.
Now, I know many argue that this is merely the result of corruption, and not the fault of the system. Perhaps. But I shall take your example of French Health Care.
Understand that you have proven to my that most of European health care is superior to America's. You shall have no argument here, I see how broken it is firsthand. But I have also seen France. I have seen people who riot when it is suggested they could actually be fired for poor performance. I see unemployment, and employers afraid to hire workers because at a certain point they will never be able to fire them without great effort. I see these things and am appalled. If we implement their healthcare system here, perhaps it will fix the health care problem, but at what cost? Will it breed what has been growing in France for decades? Understand that I would rather sacrifice my healthcare than live in a country where my labor is no longer valued.
This is what I call the evil of socialism. What you see is functioning health care, a clean system. What I see is being bled dry for others. Why would I see such an extreme thing? Because I do not believe that an able man who refuses to work is worthy of saving, of serving, or of helping in any way. This will seem monstrously stubborn to you, but to me it is the soul of my nation in dire peril.
Take me at my word that I am a hard worker and an intelligent man. I am capable and motivated. I am a harder worker, a better worker, than most of the population. I work hard to advance myself and those I love, I work hard because it is a statement of my value and my dedication to competance and excellence. I cannot imagine setting myself to a task and not doing my very best. So in a system that taxes all equally for a general benefit, it is those who work hardest that truly have the most to lose.
I say this to MadAce specifically. You are an able debator and I respect your skill and intelligence. Can you convince me, that accepting such a system as you suggest will not also lead to my labors serving those too lazy to do the work I do? If placed in a position where I must work hard to feed others who willingly do not work, I would rather stop working and starve us all. It is a line of absolute moral imperative to me.
It's always fun to watch both sides skirt around the fundamental point. The majority of US citizens aren't interested in taking care of those "less fortunate" in their society. This isn't good or bad, it's just the way it is. The US mindset is very clear cut on this issue, and understanding it will help you non-US folks understand the issue more clearly. The US belief is very simple: we all have equal opportunity to become successful -- if you didn't and can't afford your own healthcare as a result, well... tough luck for you. You should have worked harder, like I did. There's no such thing as "less fortunate". Now a lot of US posters will have troubles expressing that directly, so you'll see things like "we believe in independence and individualism". When they say that, the above is what they mean. They believe that we all had an equal chance here and they're not responsible for the mistakes and failures of others to take advantage of those chances. And they'll be damned if they'll be forced to pay for those folks who failed to take advantage of those chances. US society believes itself to be very much a "pay your own way" society, even when it comes to the fundamentals. So posting stats about better healthcare, or cheaper healthcare, or any other such approach is kind of futile. A typical US poster doesn't care if it's cheaper, or better (or, for that matter, if it's more expensive, or worse). All they care about is that you are asking them to pay for someone else who didn't pull their own weight, and that's fundamentally anti-American. This isn't exclusive to healthcare -- you'll see a simliar attitude reflected in most US social systems and government policies. Now for most of Europe and other western nations, this seems... harsh. It looks like an unwillingness to help out your fellow man, a practically sadistic lack of empathy towards those less fortunate than ourselves. But from a US perspective, we all start out on equal footing, so there's no such thing as someone "less fortunate" than you. If they're in a crappy situation, they got there by choice. This all stems from one of the biggest misconceptions in modern western culture... that US culture is "just like" other western culture. It isn't. Now, agreeably, we are "all human", and so US humans have all the fundamental traits as any human you've met anywhere else, be it China, Sweden, or points in between. But US culture is very, *very* different than western European culture, and it's important not to be fooled otherwise. The differences between a US mentality and a western European mentality are huge, on the order of the differences with Iran or China or any other particularly foreign culture you might choose to compare against. Don't let the surface similarities deceive you. Again, this isn't intended in a positive or negative light. It is, hopefully, a neutral observation.
I think you've pretty much nailed it on the head. Although I would say we do care about taking care of the less fortunate, but we don't want to be forced by the government. We want to help people because we choose too....making and actually having choices is a fundamental part of freedom. Force is a fundamental part of tyranny. Maturity is taking care of the less fortunate without having to be told and forced too or else risk getting a time out.
If America is such a sadistic place...why does everyone want to come here? /tongue-in-cheek off
Good post nezroy.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
A lot of really interesting things to reply to. I'm glad we stepped away from fighting with statistics to the underlining differences in ideology.
First something I honestly want to say, and I hope you'll take my word for it. The democratic political system in western-european countries is as flawed as in the US (I'm more than willing to point out the problems in both systems in another debate). In the specific case of Western Europe it's because the political parties simply want one thing: to get as much votes as possible. For this they will do anything, and the first thing they'll do is adapt their ideology to anything the voter would want to vote for. This process has been going on since the end of WW2 and it's gotten fairly absurd. So believe me when I say that, although we have them in name, our "socialist" parties aren't socialist. They're a hybrid of all sorts of things. Socialism is an ideology that hasn't beein in practice in Western Europe since the end of WW2. You'll find the liberals in my country to be just as "socialist" as the err... socialists. Just to point that out.
Now. Let's get to it.
You guys say everyone starts out on an equal footing in the US. That might have been the case a few hundred years ago, but that is no longer so. People don't start out equally. One child is born in Beverly Hills, with loving and supportive parents that will grow up having every opportunity for a good education and prime class health care... While another child is born from a 16-year old drug addiceted prostitute. Both situations are of course extremes, just to establish the obvious. You might argue that the former paretns had to work hard for their money and opportunities (or they inherited it from their rich parents) and the latter girl didn't (or inhereited her shit from her crappy parents). You might very well be 100% correct in this. But this doesn't change the starting situation of both kids one percent.
Another example is pretty simple. One person with a very unhealthy life style lives to reach 98 years old. Another healthy person contracts cancer. It's all just a dive roll away, it seems.
I hope those two examples point out how people DO NOT START OUT EQUALLY. Let's take a closer look at the situation of the children.
Both kids have potential to do something in life, I'm sure. And I don't see how either of those children can pull their own weight. They have to be cared for, and the family of one kid can, the other can't or won't. THis is of not fault of either of the children, yet they're stuck with it. And neither of them got in by choice. Because they didn't exist to make the choice.
It's fairly impossible to be a "neutral" person in society. Either you contribute to society or you are a liability to society. The latter kid surely will be a cost to society, if he/she won't receive the proper help. He/she could end up in prison (very costly to society, more costly than welfare) or kill a hardworking father or commit suicide (nullifying all investments of society) or whatever. Or perhaps he/she becomes a hardworking street cleaner. While he/she could have been the next nobel prize winner. Sounds far-fetched. But it isn't. Considering the amount of people in the lowest classes of society the odds of there being a few undiscovered geniuses among them are pretty large. And one doesn't only have to aim for the amazing minds. Everyone can be a considerable contribution to the community.
(I could go on a rant on how people are just people and make mistakes which don't nullify their potential or how people prefer large wages over welfare and so on and on, but I hope I made my point clear with the above.)
That's why I 100% support a society that tries to seek out problems and solve them, this to as little cost as possible, but still accepting the costs. This because in the end it's cheaper and easier to repay a debt to the community than continuing to be a cost to it. If given the opportunity and the help then someone can achieve a lot more in life than what is determined by their starting conditions. It's pretty easy to turn a rofit from a person. Might sound calculated (and less humanist than expected) from me but that's how a society should work imho.
I myself have seen all aspects of my country's welfare society. From universal health care over drug use containment up to basic welfare. And I've seen it from all angles. From the receiving end up to working for the bosses of the whole thing. And while there are a whole lot of flaws and there are still massive holes in the system I can only conclude (being very objective and critical) that it works. In fact, it's even turning a profit. I'm afraid I don't think it's respectful to openly talk about peoples cases, so I can't give clear examples but I can say that the system is in fact saving lives. It's keeping people out of prison, helping getting them rid of drugs (tho that part is really lacking), breeding scientists and doctors and helping kids overcome the burden of generations of poverty. Those are all costly things, but they're all a huge profit for society. People who would otherwise drain society by being a burden on others are now being harvested. Most of them repay their debt to the community. There are of course people who aim to exploit the system, but it has evolved and over the years it's become a lot harder to do so. It's of course far from perfect. Many people are being ignored while others are being supported for no apparent reason. But that's how people work. If something fails you improve it, until it works.
Of course, the above is set in a different culture than the American culture. Someone who is a little informed about the world can do little but be impressed because of the many achievements of a society such as the American society. But on the other hand, it's really almost frustrating to see so much potential being wasted. Prison is more expensive to society than welfare. Ignoring someone is more costly to society than helping them on their feet. Those are just mathematical facts. I'm very sure my country hasn't evolved in the way it has because of a great love to all people. Of course not, then its foreign policy would be very different indeed. It has evolved the way it has aiming for nothing but money and power. Or in reality, holding its own in an agressive world (economically speaking of course). The fortunate by-product is that people live longer, less children die, and one has more opportunities to be happy.
So I'm amazed to see if a sytem is more costly (or only marinally less costly) for the individual tax payer than an alternative which would help millions. I don't think the US should adopt the French welfare/health care sytem. I think the US (or actually its citizens) should recognize problems and accept that they are a real issue and start from scratch. Looking around how others do it, and then improve that system so it serves their needs. If you can fly to the moon (or for you conspiracy nuts, fake you have) then you should be able to do just that.
I'm going to dare explain my point with a metaphor. If privatized health care grants more freedom, then why are fire and police departments nationalized? Why doesn't anyone say it's your choice if your house is on fire? That you should have been more careful? And why isn't the fire department refused then to you because you were that stupid? Because, while it might be your own fault, the fire can still spread to other houses of people who did nothing wrong.
Same with health care, while one persons stupidity (not that I'm acknowledging that is the main cause of getting sick) means his own downfal, it can affect others. For example (overly simplified I admit), if a person with a business gets sick and can't pay his/her medical bills then his bankrupcy will mean his employees are without a job. It's a really dumbed down example, but I'm sure you can extrapolate it to other parts of society.
In the end it's all about turning a profit. i'm all for that. And ignoring human potential won't turn a profit.
Thanks for reading the wall of text. Hope it explained my stance sufficiently.
Hmm, your fire and police example is pretty good, I shall have to think on it.
Second, I absolutely agree that people in this country do not start with equal footing. That is something I accepted long ago, because I myself started pretty low down the totem pole. And I'll be honest, when I was younger I had some pretty strong socialist ideals. I believed that a good government should provide a safety net of sorts. People should succeed or fail on their own, without intervention, but no one should fail to the point where they're starving in the street. So, nationalized health care sounded pretty good to me then. But that was before I found a job in the health care system, before I started volunteering at the heatlh department.
The experience has jaded me, to say the least. I encounter many people who use that safety net, and become addicted to it. What started innocently enough as someone who lost a job and couldn't get work, turned into a habitual job-avoider using the system to repeatedly provide for a new kind of lifestyle devoid of honest labor. I've seen people get pregnant, repeatedly, just to use the child to get a bigger welfare check. I have seen horrors and abuses.
Through it all, the most terrible thing I've seen is a change in attitude. One might expect a touch of gratitude, relief, or even simple contentment from such people. Instead, what I've seen is expectation and rancor. They have come to believe that it is everyone else's responsibility to make them live. They go beyond the safety net of providing for them when they can't, to providing for them when they won't. That somehow their deliberate incompetence and need is a value to be traded for.
It is this attitude that horrifies me the most. If I believed that a nationalized heatlh care system would somehow not encourage this activity, then I might be very supportive of it. However, I have seen good intentions turn to horrors. It has left me immensly bitter.
Comments
You proved me wrong by comparing to multiple countries together. Show me one other country that spends more and then you have a victory. It isn't a fair comparison to combine them all and then compare their combined spending to the US.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
To Cabe:
Americans, the people, are great people. Great spirit. Great decency.
The US Constitution creates the best system of government in world history.
The USA health care system, contrary to all similar countries, is not merely bad but morally wrong. It is the American people who suffer under the US health care system.
Boycott EA Games. RIP Sim City.
Madace are you Fing kidding bringing up your infant mortality crap again, did you even read my post/the article i posted in it?your arguement means crap when you ignore the facts left and right. Your worse then Michael Moore, both of you make up crap to try and push your point that will never work here. Please stop wasting everyones time.
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
your arguement means crap when you ignore the facts left and right. Your worse then Michael Moore, both of you make up crap to try and push your point that will never work here. Please stop wasting everyones time.
Infant mortality and life expectancy are both globally accepted indicators of health quality. Those figures are used by governments to determine policy and used by companies too, btw.
But it doesn't matter, as the WHO ranking takes this into consideration. If you don't accept their rankings then you shouldn't join this discussion which is largely revoling around that ranking, as you know undoubtitly why the US has a lot better real ranking than the WHO rankings suggest.
Cabe:
My objective is not victory. My objective is that you understand you have been lied to, were wrong and take alternative health care systems into account in future decision making (such as voting). Like I said twice before. I'm not comparing countries, I'm comparing health care systems.
You decided to drag in research into the discussion, claiming (iwht top nobel prize winners...) that the US system creates the world highest R&D spendings. Untrue.
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It's really quite simple:
Private Heatlh Care:
Less time waiting in line
Best treatment and medical care in the world
Costly
If you're poor, you don't have it, or you have to resort to going to one of those nasty county hospitals
Public Health Care:
Everyone has access, even the street bums.
You still pay for it (higher taxes), including paying for those who don't pay themselves (i.e., the street bums), and it may end up costing you as much as you'd pay for private care in a free society.
"Hallway medicine". Meaning you can get used to waiting in line for treatment for hours, and if you need a special operation, you could be in a waiting line for several months, maybe even die while waiting for that all important treatment.
Really, public healthcare is about the same as "public" anything. Would you like to live in public housing, travel by public transportation, use a public bathroom?
Thought not.
If you want to join a discussion about a movie, first read the rest of the discussion and maybe, just maybe read up on the basics of what is in the movie.
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They are accepted but flawed, just because government and companies use it doesnt mean its a good indicator. Just look at BMI, any bodybuilder is going to be view as obese or morbidly obese.
My article also pointed out why that data is even more horribly flawed and would appreciate if you stop trying to use it anymore.
As for the WHO data dont know havnt look at it enough yet so i have no problem with those numbers.
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
If you want to join a discussion about a movie, first read the rest of the discussion and maybe, just maybe read up on the basics of what is in the movie.
Ah, your view of public healthcare being superior to private healthcare is crap. I have known healthcare workers who have worked and lived in the U.K. before coming to the U.S., and there is a world of difference.
Fact is, when folks want cheap free healthcare, they sometimes cross the border from New York to Canada. When folks want serious quality healthcare (i.e., heart operations and such), the cross the border from Canada into the U.S. Even if it means paying. Public healthcare is like those county hospitals; run down, crappy, and the last place on earth you'd want to be for treatment.
There's a reason that the very wealthy and heads of states will travel to the U.S. when their health is seriously in decline. I never hear of some world leader who needs a triple bypass going to Canada for the procedure.
There is a deeper reason for the difference in quality. When you reward someone for their efforts, they tend to be more inclined to overachieve, do better work, invest more in their profession, etc...
But, when you put someone on the static public payroll and ration out their equipment and supplies, then it's just another ho-hum bummed out work experience.
Public healthcare (or public "anything") can never compare to private efforts.
They are accepted but flawed, just because government and companies use it doesnt mean its a good indicator. Just look at BMI, any bodybuilder is going to be view as obese or morbidly obese.
My article also pointed out why that data is even more horribly flawed and would appreciate if you stop trying to use it anymore.
Because some index used for something completely different (BMI) is flawed (not when applied correctly, btw) you suggest the tools for deciding policies for billions of people are flawed?
I'm sorry, but I suggest you go study statistics and demographics if you want to prove the US government (and a shitload of other ones too, including EU survey agencies, the UN, ...) wrong. I'm sure they'll welcome your help in pointing out how they are wrong.
If you want to join a discussion about a movie, first read the rest of the discussion and maybe, just maybe read up on the basics of what is in the movie.
Ah, your view of public healthcare being superior to private healthcare is crap. I have known healthcare workers who have worked and lived in the U.K. before coming to the U.S., and there is a world of difference.
Fact is, when folks want cheap free healthcare, they sometimes cross the border from New York to Canada. When folks want serious quality healthcare (i.e., heart operations and such), the cross the border from Canada into the U.S. Even if it means paying. Public healthcare is like those county hospitals; run down, crappy, and the last place on earth you'd want to be for treatment.
There's a reason that the very wealthy and heads of states will travel to the U.S. when their health is seriously in decline. I never hear of some world leader who needs a triple bypass going to Canada for the procedure.
There is a deeper reason for the difference in quality. When you reward someone for their efforts, they tend to be more inclined to overachieve, do better work, invest more in their profession, etc...
But, when you put someone on the static public payroll and ration out their equipment and supplies, then it's just another ho-hum bummed out work experience.
Public healthcare (or public "anything") can never compare to private efforts.
All of your unfunded and unproven "arguments" have been proven to be wrong in the previous pages of this thread. IF you seriously doubt public health care then I suggest you visit any hospital in my country, or the Netherlands, or Spain or France. They're all quite efficient, well-equiped, fast (no waiting times, at least when I visited) and reliable. Not to mention cheap.
I've proven how public health care countries spend more on R&D aznd I've linked to how the WHO rankings (which you didn't try to refute, thus accept) takes quality into its calculations.
In case you were wondering, docters (and nurses) in my country receive very well wages, as they say themselves. Of course they always want more.
But perhaps we don't quite want to spend as much as the US on health care.
Please feel freee to rejoin the conversation when you have cast of your bias or are willing to show some untested proof for your arguments. Be sure to read the rest of the thread before you present them.
CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
The problem with the U.S. Healthcare(I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not), is that it is expensive. But what many people don't understand, is why it is expensive.
The two biggest reasons. Medicaid/Medicare(A form of public healthcare), and Medical Insurance. All the lawsuits against doctors has caused the insurance to go astronomically high, which in turn means the medical industry must charge higher fee's to pay for the insurance.
Privatized healthcare is the most efficient and costless form of healthcare. Government has been proven time and time again to be absolutely incompetent, anything they get involved with, they screw up.
Public healthcare is not costless. Everytime I got a paycheck, there was a chunk taken out for medicare. I don't use medicare, I've only been to the hospital once in my life. I actually take care of my health and don't run to the hospital every chance I get.
Even moreso, I do not enjoy the fact that if I decide to not be a governmental leech, I must practically sell a kidney to pay for a short hospital visit, and then still have to owe them. Back before the government started getting involved in welfare medical care, things were actually affordable.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
OH wow are you really going to stoop that low? To compare the rest of the world combined to the US? That is just plain idiotic. I guess the US sucks huh they are only providing 38% of the whole world's research and development and are only what about 4% of the world's population?
Yeah it's pretty pathetic. I'm going to stop arguing with him, no point of it.The US has 20 of the top 50 companies for medical research and doesn't have socialized healthcare. Luxembourg doesn't even have a single top 50 company and has socialized healthcare. Clearly the US healthcare system is superior.
What rediculous reasoning.
No sir BMI is just another well known example of something commmonly used in the health care system that is flawed.
As for infant mortality I wasnt the one that said it had problems........ let me see again, oh yah it was the president and ceo of the red freaking cross, she is a member of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology, oh and lets not forget she has served as director of the National Institutes of Health.
I think she might know a tad more then you or I sir on this issue.
Have a nice day sir.
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
I've been trying to stay out of this thread now because this stuff makes me almost psychotic it pisses me off so much.
But MadAce, why do you want to try to tell Americans how to handle health care when you aren't even an American. It's none of your business. Of course this is just a stupid thread on a gaming site so it will have no impact what-so-ever. But still, why put so much energy into an argument that doesn't even concern you. I don't give a damn what Belgium's health care system is like and wouldn't spend one second trying to convince your countrymen that they should change it.
One thing I can tell you is that no matter how rosy a picture you paint there are many, many Americans who will always resist pushing our country further into socialism. It's a philosophy based on individualism and independance and freedom...and apparantly it is, as we are, quite foreign to you.
Of course we also have our Michael Moores. That stupid, fat hypocrit.
....ah, I have to stop now because I'm getting too angry again.
Yup tried that argument back on page 2 or 3........ Nope, they think every country can just pay the same amount for the same goods.
Why is it different, because are government is different. In America we sue for everything, have big business in everything we do, and are law makers make sure the prices stay higher(its good for big pharma). Universal health care would be different here because, well are country is different.
I know its a shocker, but France and the US are different.
Yet no matter how many times you say it, they just don't believe you........
If only i could find a troll with a tin foil hat. =(
I've seen it proven more than once the American health care system is flawed. So I know I'm right. For rational people that little WHO ranking should ring a bell, but I'm dealing with "patriots".
I love debating, not because I believe that people (especially American patriots) will change their minds or will consider the truth in someone elses opinion (how funded as they might be) but because it makes me rethink my own ideas, challenge them and eventually makes me improve them. It's called evolution.
It's pretty simple. You have been brought up to think you're superior in all fields. And you probably are, except in a little thing like health care. The US is the richest country in the world (not the richest market, but don't let that push you down) and should be able to take care of its people better than evil communist states bent on world destruction like France. Yet the US is unable to do that.
In reaction to this inescapable truth you turn to makings things black and white. Freedom versus socialism and other crap.
You act like socialism (an ideology that hasn't been in active use in any industrialzed country for decades now) is the opposite of freedom:
Press freedom (so called socialist countries, leaning the ones with universal health care, are blue):
N° Country Note
1 Finland 0,50
- Iceland 0,50
- Netherlands 0,50
- Norway 0,50
5 Denmark 1,00
- Trinidad and Tobago 1,00
7 Belgium 1,17
8 Germany 1,33
9 Sweden 1,50
10 Canada 1,83
11 Latvia 2,25
12 Czech Republic 2,50
- Estonia 2,50
- Slovakia 2,50
- Switzerland 2,50
16 Austria 2,75
17 Ireland 2,83
- Lithuania 2,83
- New Zealand 2,83
20 Slovenia 3,00
21 Hungary 3,33
- Jamaica 3,33
- South Africa 3,33
24 Costa Rica 3,83
25 Uruguay 4,00
26 France 4,17
27 United Kingdom 4,25
28 Portugal 5,17
29 Benin 5,25
30 Timor-Leste 5,50
31 Greece 6,00
- United States of America (American territory) 6,00
33 Poland 6,17
34 Albania 6,50
- Bulgaria 6,50
- Nicaragua 6,50
37 Bosnia and Herzegovina 6,83
- Chile 6,83
- El Salvador 6,83
40 Paraguay 7,17
41 Mauritius 7,25
42 Ecuador 7,67
- Spain 7,67
44 Israel (Israeli territory) 8,00
- Japan 8,00
46 Madagascar 8,17
47 Cape Verde 8,25
48 Ghana 8,75
49 South Korea 9,17
50 Australia 9,25
51 Bolivia 9,67
- Macedonia 9,67
53 Italy 9,75
- Panama 9,75
55 Peru 10,25
56 Hong-Kong 11,00
- Mali 11,00
- Namibia 11,00
59 Fiji 11,50
- Romania 11,50
61 Taïwan 12,00
62 Botswana 13,00
63 Congo 14,00
- Mozambique 14,00
65 Honduras 14,17
66 Senegal 14,50
67 Argentina 15,17
68 Niger 15,75
69 Croatia 16,50
- Tanzania 16,50
71 Brazil 16,75
72 Dominican Republic 17,00
73 Georgia 17,33
74 Mexico 17,67
75 Lesotho 17,75
76 Burkina Faso 18,00
77 Gambia 18,25
- Mongolia 18,25
79 Comoros 18,50
- Kenya 18,50
81 Cambodia 19,50
82 Thailand 19,67
83 Cyprus 20,83
84 Malawi 21,00
85 Serbia and Montenegro 21,33
86 Zambia 23,25
87 Sierra Leone 23,50
88 Chad 24,00
89 Sri Lanka 24,83
90 Armenia 25,17
91 Uganda 25,75
92 Burundi 26,25
93 Seychelles 26,75
94 Moldova 27,00
95 Togo 27,50
96 Venezuela 27,83
97 Angola 28,00
98 Cameroon 30,50
99 Guatemala 30,83
100 Haiti 31,00
101 Gabon 31,25
102 Kuwait 31,33
103 Nigeria 31,50
104 Kyrgyzstan 32,00
- Malaysia 32,00
106 Lebanon 32,50
107 Central African Republic 32,75
108 Algeria 33,00
109 Guinea 33,17
110 Egypt 34,25
- Indonesia 34,25
- Rwanda 34,25
113 Azerbaijan 34,50
- Tajikistan 34,50
115 Qatar 35,00
- Turkey 35,00
117 Bahrain 35,17
118 Guinea-Bissau 35,25
- Philippines 35,25
120 Djibouti 35,50
121 Mauritania 36,67
122 United Arab Emirates 37,00
- Jordan 37,00
124 Ethiopia 37,50
- Iraq 37,50
- Swaziland 37,50
127 Democratic Republic of Congo 38,50
128 India 39,00
- Pakistan 39,00
130 Palestinian Authority 39,25
131 Morocco 39,67
132 Liberia 40,00
- Ukraine 40,00
134 Afghanistan 40,17
135 United States of America (in Iraq) 41,00
136 Yemen 41,83
137 Côte d’Ivoire 42,17
138 Kazakhstan 42,50
139 Equatorial Guinea 44,75
140 Somalia 45,00
141 Zimbabwe 45,50
142 Sudan 45,75
143 Bangladesh 46,50
144 Singapore 47,33
145 Maldives 47,50
146 Israel (Occupied Territories) 49,00
147 Colombia 49,17
148 Russia 49,50
149 Tunisia 50,83
150 Nepal 51,50
151 Belarus 52,00
152 Oman 57,75
153 Libya 60,00
154 Uzbekistan 61,50
155 Syria 67,50
156 Saudi Arabia 71,50
157 Bhutan 77,33
158 Turkmenistan 82,83
159 Vietnam 89,17
160 Iran 89,33
161 China 91,25
162 Eritrea 91,50
163 Laos 94,83
164 Burma 95,50
165 Cuba 97,83
166 North Korea 99,50
"Special situation of the United States and Israel The ranking distinguishes behaviour at home and abroad in the cases of the United States and Israel. They are ranked in 31st and 44th positions respectively as regards respect for freedom of expression on their own territory, but they fall to the 135th and 146th positions as regards behaviour beyond their borders.
The Israeli army’s repeated abuses against journalists in the occupied territories and the US army’s responsibility in the death of several reporters during the war in Iraq constitute unacceptable behaviour by two nations that never stop stressing their commitment to freedom of expression."
I'd say my region is ultimatly more free:
Annual reports of police brutality (per 100,000 people)
United States 92.5
United Kingdom 6.0
France 0.7
Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
United States 4.2
United Kingdom 1.0
Germany 0.8
Denmark 0.7
Sweden 0.6
Japan 0.4
Netherlands 0.4
(in fact, 25% of all prisoners in the world are American, while it only holds 4% of the global population)News as a percent of all TV programming:
Denmark 43%
Sweden 35
Canada 32
Netherlands 25
Germany 20
United Kingdom 17
Japan 6
United States 2
Percent of employees fired for cause:
United States 52%
European Community 43
Voter participation:
Germany 87%
Sweden 86
Norway 83
Netherlands 80
Finland 76
United Kingdom 75
Canada 75
United States 49
Average number of national referenda per year:
Switzerland 169
Australia 18
Denmark 11
France 10
Ireland 8
Italy 4
Sweden 3
Norway 1
United Kingdom 1
Canada 0
Finland 0
Germany 0
Japan 0
Netherlands 0
United States 0
Number of political scandals since 1945 (More):
United States 53
United Kingdom 42
France 16
Canada 5
Germany 3
Japan 2
Sweden 2
Netherlands 1
Norway 1
The United Nations Human Freedom Index (0 =
least freedom, 40 = most freedom. More.):
Sweden 38
Denmark 38
Netherlands 37
Austria 36
Finland 36
France 35
Germany 35
Canada 34
Switzerland 34
Australia 33
United States 33
Japan 32
United Kingdom 32
I think the US is an awesome country from which the rest of the world can learn a great deal. Which they do. And some things shouldn't be learned from the US.Hence why its citizens have a larger responsability than they realize.CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
The reasons why I venture in this debate are the following:I've seen it proven more than once the American health care system is flawed. So I know I'm right. For rational people that little WHO ranking should ring a bell, but I'm dealing with "patriots".
I love debating, not because I believe that people (especially American patriots) will change their minds or will consider the truth in someone elses opinion (how funded as they might be) but because it makes me rethink my own ideas, challenge them and eventually makes me improve them. It's called evolution.
It's pretty simple. You have been brought up to think you're superior in all fields. And you probably are, except in a little thing like health care. The US is the richest country in the world (not the richest market, but don't let that push you down) and should be able to take care of its people better than evil communist states bent on world destruction like France. Yet the US is unable to do that.
In reaction to this inescapable truth you turn to makings things black and white. Freedom versus socialism and other crap.
You act like socialism (an ideology that hasn't been in active use in any industrialzed country for decades now) is the opposite of freedom:
Press freedom (so called socialist countries, leaning the ones with universal health care, are blue):
N° Country Note
1 Finland 0,50
- Iceland 0,50
- Netherlands 0,50
- Norway 0,50
5 Denmark 1,00
- Trinidad and Tobago 1,00
7 Belgium 1,17
8 Germany 1,33
9 Sweden 1,50
10 Canada 1,83
11 Latvia 2,25
12 Czech Republic 2,50
- Estonia 2,50
- Slovakia 2,50
- Switzerland 2,50
16 Austria 2,75
17 Ireland 2,83
- Lithuania 2,83
- New Zealand 2,83
20 Slovenia 3,00
21 Hungary 3,33
- Jamaica 3,33
- South Africa 3,33
24 Costa Rica 3,83
25 Uruguay 4,00
26 France 4,17
27 United Kingdom 4,25
28 Portugal 5,17
29 Benin 5,25
30 Timor-Leste 5,50
31 Greece 6,00
- United States of America (American territory) 6,00
33 Poland 6,17
34 Albania 6,50
- Bulgaria 6,50
- Nicaragua 6,50
37 Bosnia and Herzegovina 6,83
- Chile 6,83
- El Salvador 6,83
40 Paraguay 7,17
41 Mauritius 7,25
42 Ecuador 7,67
- Spain 7,67
44 Israel (Israeli territory) 8,00
- Japan 8,00
46 Madagascar 8,17
47 Cape Verde 8,25
48 Ghana 8,75
49 South Korea 9,17
50 Australia 9,25
51 Bolivia 9,67
- Macedonia 9,67
53 Italy 9,75
- Panama 9,75
55 Peru 10,25
56 Hong-Kong 11,00
- Mali 11,00
- Namibia 11,00
59 Fiji 11,50
- Romania 11,50
61 Taïwan 12,00
62 Botswana 13,00
63 Congo 14,00
- Mozambique 14,00
65 Honduras 14,17
66 Senegal 14,50
67 Argentina 15,17
68 Niger 15,75
69 Croatia 16,50
- Tanzania 16,50
71 Brazil 16,75
72 Dominican Republic 17,00
73 Georgia 17,33
74 Mexico 17,67
75 Lesotho 17,75
76 Burkina Faso 18,00
77 Gambia 18,25
- Mongolia 18,25
79 Comoros 18,50
- Kenya 18,50
81 Cambodia 19,50
82 Thailand 19,67
83 Cyprus 20,83
84 Malawi 21,00
85 Serbia and Montenegro 21,33
86 Zambia 23,25
87 Sierra Leone 23,50
88 Chad 24,00
89 Sri Lanka 24,83
90 Armenia 25,17
91 Uganda 25,75
92 Burundi 26,25
93 Seychelles 26,75
94 Moldova 27,00
95 Togo 27,50
96 Venezuela 27,83
97 Angola 28,00
98 Cameroon 30,50
99 Guatemala 30,83
100 Haiti 31,00
101 Gabon 31,25
102 Kuwait 31,33
103 Nigeria 31,50
104 Kyrgyzstan 32,00
- Malaysia 32,00
106 Lebanon 32,50
107 Central African Republic 32,75
108 Algeria 33,00
109 Guinea 33,17
110 Egypt 34,25
- Indonesia 34,25
- Rwanda 34,25
113 Azerbaijan 34,50
- Tajikistan 34,50
115 Qatar 35,00
- Turkey 35,00
117 Bahrain 35,17
118 Guinea-Bissau 35,25
- Philippines 35,25
120 Djibouti 35,50
121 Mauritania 36,67
122 United Arab Emirates 37,00
- Jordan 37,00
124 Ethiopia 37,50
- Iraq 37,50
- Swaziland 37,50
127 Democratic Republic of Congo 38,50
128 India 39,00
- Pakistan 39,00
130 Palestinian Authority 39,25
131 Morocco 39,67
132 Liberia 40,00
- Ukraine 40,00
134 Afghanistan 40,17
135 United States of America (in Iraq) 41,00
136 Yemen 41,83
137 Côte d’Ivoire 42,17
138 Kazakhstan 42,50
139 Equatorial Guinea 44,75
140 Somalia 45,00
141 Zimbabwe 45,50
142 Sudan 45,75
143 Bangladesh 46,50
144 Singapore 47,33
145 Maldives 47,50
146 Israel (Occupied Territories) 49,00
147 Colombia 49,17
148 Russia 49,50
149 Tunisia 50,83
150 Nepal 51,50
151 Belarus 52,00
152 Oman 57,75
153 Libya 60,00
154 Uzbekistan 61,50
155 Syria 67,50
156 Saudi Arabia 71,50
157 Bhutan 77,33
158 Turkmenistan 82,83
159 Vietnam 89,17
160 Iran 89,33
161 China 91,25
162 Eritrea 91,50
163 Laos 94,83
164 Burma 95,50
165 Cuba 97,83
166 North Korea 99,50
"Special situation of the United States and Israel The ranking distinguishes behaviour at home and abroad in the cases of the United States and Israel. They are ranked in 31st and 44th positions respectively as regards respect for freedom of expression on their own territory, but they fall to the 135th and 146th positions as regards behaviour beyond their borders.
The Israeli army’s repeated abuses against journalists in the occupied territories and the US army’s responsibility in the death of several reporters during the war in Iraq constitute unacceptable behaviour by two nations that never stop stressing their commitment to freedom of expression."
I'd say my region is ultimatly more free:
Annual reports of police brutality (per 100,000 people)
United States 92.5
United Kingdom 6.0
France 0.7
Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
United States 4.2
United Kingdom 1.0
Germany 0.8
Denmark 0.7
Sweden 0.6
Japan 0.4
Netherlands 0.4
(in fact, 25% of all prisoners in the world are American, while it only holds 4% of the global population)News as a percent of all TV programming:
Denmark 43%
Sweden 35
Canada 32
Netherlands 25
Germany 20
United Kingdom 17
Japan 6
United States 2
Percent of employees fired for cause:
United States 52%
European Community 43
Voter participation:
Germany 87%
Sweden 86
Norway 83
Netherlands 80
Finland 76
United Kingdom 75
Canada 75
United States 49
Average number of national referenda per year:
Switzerland 169
Australia 18
Denmark 11
France 10
Ireland 8
Italy 4
Sweden 3
Norway 1
United Kingdom 1
Canada 0
Finland 0
Germany 0
Japan 0
Netherlands 0
United States 0
Number of political scandals since 1945 (More):
United States 53
United Kingdom 42
France 16
Canada 5
Germany 3
Japan 2
Sweden 2
Netherlands 1
Norway 1
The United Nations Human Freedom Index (0 =
least freedom, 40 = most freedom. More.):
Sweden 38
Denmark 38
Netherlands 37
Austria 36
Finland 36
France 35
Germany 35
Canada 34
Switzerland 34
Australia 33
United States 33
Japan 32
United Kingdom 32
I think the US is an awesome country from which the rest of the world can learn a great deal. Which they do. And some things shouldn't be learned from the US.Hence why its citizens have a larger responsability than they realize.From the link you posted with all those "statistics" :
"The following statistics are a 1991 comparison of the United States with Northern Europe, Japan and Canada. The comparison is especially revealing because all these nations are more liberal and democratic than we are. Their voter turn-outs are 50 percent higher; their corporate lobbying systems are much less developed; their taxes are higher, their safety nets larger, their societies more equal, their labor unions stronger."
Rofl. Yeah, that source isn't biased at all. Plus it's 16 years old.
I'm not planning on starting a debate on freedom.
I just note you were unable to refute the statistics on press freedom by Reporters Without Borders.
I'm just pointing out that I do consider my country to be free, despite its so called "evil socialism".
CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
AFAIK you didn't provide a link for it, but i went to the reporters without borders website, where I found that the US is listed as having a "Satisfactory situation", a condition it shared with France, Spain, and Italy, all socialist paradises (lol). In contrast, Cuba, another socialist paradise, is listed as having a "very serious situation." Go figure.
And no one here called socialism "evil". I frankly don't care if you're socialist or not, but I do object to you forcing it upon others.
Ok MadAce, let me apologize for questioning why you bother debating this. That was a little silly of me but like I said I get highly agitated over topics like this. I understand the love of debate. And this thread is no worse than anything else on these forums. If you want to discuss this topic it is not my place to tell you you shouldn't.
But I think there is something very fundamental that you are failing to grasp. Something which is deeply ingrained in a great many Americans.
It's like this:
Even if you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that socialist systems allow governments to much more efficiently manage and control their populations.....a lot of Americans simply don't want to be managed and controled by their government. No more than is absolutely necessary at any rate.
Of course our government does already manage us and control us in various ways. But that is not a good argument for giving in to even more bureaucratic control over our lives. I would even go so far as to say that resisting the degradation of our freedom is the defining charactaristic of Americans....but if i said that some other American, Michael Moore want-to-be would probably attack me for speaking on his/her behalf....so I won't say it.
Here is another question for ya... Why are some Americans such stingy, cheap bast*rds when it comes to a national health care system but are willing to let the government piss billions of dollars per month away on a failed war?
It's always fun to watch both sides skirt around the fundamental point. The majority of US citizens aren't interested in taking care of those "less fortunate" in their society. This isn't good or bad, it's just the way it is. The US mindset is very clear cut on this issue, and understanding it will help you non-US folks understand the issue more clearly.
The US belief is very simple: we all have equal opportunity to become successful -- if you didn't and can't afford your own healthcare as a result, well... tough luck for you. You should have worked harder, like I did. There's no such thing as "less fortunate".
Now a lot of US posters will have troubles expressing that directly, so you'll see things like "we believe in independence and individualism". When they say that, the above is what they mean. They believe that we all had an equal chance here and they're not responsible for the mistakes and failures of others to take advantage of those chances. And they'll be damned if they'll be forced to pay for those folks who failed to take advantage of those chances. US society believes itself to be very much a "pay your own way" society, even when it comes to the fundamentals.
So posting stats about better healthcare, or cheaper healthcare, or any other such approach is kind of futile. A typical US poster doesn't care if it's cheaper, or better (or, for that matter, if it's more expensive, or worse). All they care about is that you are asking them to pay for someone else who didn't pull their own weight, and that's fundamentally anti-American. This isn't exclusive to healthcare -- you'll see a simliar attitude reflected in most US social systems and government policies.
Now for most of Europe and other western nations, this seems... harsh. It looks like an unwillingness to help out your fellow man, a practically sadistic lack of empathy towards those less fortunate than ourselves. But from a US perspective, we all start out on equal footing, so there's no such thing as someone "less fortunate" than you. If they're in a crappy situation, they got there by choice.
This all stems from one of the biggest misconceptions in modern western culture... that US culture is "just like" other western culture. It isn't. Now, agreeably, we are "all human", and so US humans have all the fundamental traits as any human you've met anywhere else, be it China, Sweden, or points in between. But US culture is very, *very* different than western European culture, and it's important not to be fooled otherwise. The differences between a US mentality and a western European mentality are huge, on the order of the differences with Iran or China or any other particularly foreign culture you might choose to compare against. Don't let the surface similarities deceive you. Again, this isn't intended in a positive or negative light. It is, hopefully, a neutral observation.
Nezroy makes an incredibly good point, and wish to compliment his objectivity and elaborate.
I fully recognize that the American health care system is in dire trouble, I work within it and see the horrors every single day. Medicare is likewise on its way to implosion.
However, the thought of the government taking my money to support someone else who has not earned such money is vile to me. It is wrong and evil to me. MadAce, I know we have debated good and evil in the past, but understand this from my perspective:
I have, since I was a young man, worked and worked hard for my money. I see real value in my money, as a representation of my worth and my honor in society. Every penny I own I have earned, and no one can deny me that. I have encountered, through my job and my volunteer work, a vast segment of society that does not believe it needs to work, but is capable of doing so. I encounter people who believe that I, by virtue of my ability, am entirely responsible for dragging them out of the gutter or feeding their children. That I, through the curse of my own ability and worth, must work hard that they not work at all. You cannot imagine how horrid a thought it is, that any one of my labors should support or assist a section of the population that I hate beyond all things, that I believe drags my nation down.
Further, I believe that over-concern for this segment of society has ruined my nation. The welfare system here is broken, completely. It allows a form of parasitic living I find alien and wrong and impossible to tolerate. It has bred and is overrun with corruption.
Now, I know many argue that this is merely the result of corruption, and not the fault of the system. Perhaps. But I shall take your example of French Health Care.
Understand that you have proven to my that most of European health care is superior to America's. You shall have no argument here, I see how broken it is firsthand. But I have also seen France. I have seen people who riot when it is suggested they could actually be fired for poor performance. I see unemployment, and employers afraid to hire workers because at a certain point they will never be able to fire them without great effort. I see these things and am appalled. If we implement their healthcare system here, perhaps it will fix the health care problem, but at what cost? Will it breed what has been growing in France for decades? Understand that I would rather sacrifice my healthcare than live in a country where my labor is no longer valued.
This is what I call the evil of socialism. What you see is functioning health care, a clean system. What I see is being bled dry for others. Why would I see such an extreme thing? Because I do not believe that an able man who refuses to work is worthy of saving, of serving, or of helping in any way. This will seem monstrously stubborn to you, but to me it is the soul of my nation in dire peril.
Take me at my word that I am a hard worker and an intelligent man. I am capable and motivated. I am a harder worker, a better worker, than most of the population. I work hard to advance myself and those I love, I work hard because it is a statement of my value and my dedication to competance and excellence. I cannot imagine setting myself to a task and not doing my very best. So in a system that taxes all equally for a general benefit, it is those who work hardest that truly have the most to lose.
I say this to MadAce specifically. You are an able debator and I respect your skill and intelligence. Can you convince me, that accepting such a system as you suggest will not also lead to my labors serving those too lazy to do the work I do? If placed in a position where I must work hard to feed others who willingly do not work, I would rather stop working and starve us all. It is a line of absolute moral imperative to me.
If America is such a sadistic place...why does everyone want to come here? /tongue-in-cheek off
Good post nezroy.
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
A lot of really interesting things to reply to. I'm glad we stepped away from fighting with statistics to the underlining differences in ideology.
First something I honestly want to say, and I hope you'll take my word for it. The democratic political system in western-european countries is as flawed as in the US (I'm more than willing to point out the problems in both systems in another debate). In the specific case of Western Europe it's because the political parties simply want one thing: to get as much votes as possible. For this they will do anything, and the first thing they'll do is adapt their ideology to anything the voter would want to vote for. This process has been going on since the end of WW2 and it's gotten fairly absurd. So believe me when I say that, although we have them in name, our "socialist" parties aren't socialist. They're a hybrid of all sorts of things. Socialism is an ideology that hasn't beein in practice in Western Europe since the end of WW2. You'll find the liberals in my country to be just as "socialist" as the err... socialists. Just to point that out.
Now. Let's get to it.
You guys say everyone starts out on an equal footing in the US. That might have been the case a few hundred years ago, but that is no longer so. People don't start out equally. One child is born in Beverly Hills, with loving and supportive parents that will grow up having every opportunity for a good education and prime class health care... While another child is born from a 16-year old drug addiceted prostitute. Both situations are of course extremes, just to establish the obvious. You might argue that the former paretns had to work hard for their money and opportunities (or they inherited it from their rich parents) and the latter girl didn't (or inhereited her shit from her crappy parents). You might very well be 100% correct in this. But this doesn't change the starting situation of both kids one percent.
Another example is pretty simple. One person with a very unhealthy life style lives to reach 98 years old. Another healthy person contracts cancer. It's all just a dive roll away, it seems.
I hope those two examples point out how people DO NOT START OUT EQUALLY. Let's take a closer look at the situation of the children.
Both kids have potential to do something in life, I'm sure. And I don't see how either of those children can pull their own weight. They have to be cared for, and the family of one kid can, the other can't or won't. THis is of not fault of either of the children, yet they're stuck with it. And neither of them got in by choice. Because they didn't exist to make the choice.
It's fairly impossible to be a "neutral" person in society. Either you contribute to society or you are a liability to society. The latter kid surely will be a cost to society, if he/she won't receive the proper help. He/she could end up in prison (very costly to society, more costly than welfare) or kill a hardworking father or commit suicide (nullifying all investments of society) or whatever. Or perhaps he/she becomes a hardworking street cleaner. While he/she could have been the next nobel prize winner. Sounds far-fetched. But it isn't. Considering the amount of people in the lowest classes of society the odds of there being a few undiscovered geniuses among them are pretty large. And one doesn't only have to aim for the amazing minds. Everyone can be a considerable contribution to the community.
(I could go on a rant on how people are just people and make mistakes which don't nullify their potential or how people prefer large wages over welfare and so on and on, but I hope I made my point clear with the above.)
That's why I 100% support a society that tries to seek out problems and solve them, this to as little cost as possible, but still accepting the costs. This because in the end it's cheaper and easier to repay a debt to the community than continuing to be a cost to it. If given the opportunity and the help then someone can achieve a lot more in life than what is determined by their starting conditions. It's pretty easy to turn a rofit from a person. Might sound calculated (and less humanist than expected) from me but that's how a society should work imho.
I myself have seen all aspects of my country's welfare society. From universal health care over drug use containment up to basic welfare. And I've seen it from all angles. From the receiving end up to working for the bosses of the whole thing. And while there are a whole lot of flaws and there are still massive holes in the system I can only conclude (being very objective and critical) that it works. In fact, it's even turning a profit. I'm afraid I don't think it's respectful to openly talk about peoples cases, so I can't give clear examples but I can say that the system is in fact saving lives. It's keeping people out of prison, helping getting them rid of drugs (tho that part is really lacking), breeding scientists and doctors and helping kids overcome the burden of generations of poverty. Those are all costly things, but they're all a huge profit for society. People who would otherwise drain society by being a burden on others are now being harvested. Most of them repay their debt to the community. There are of course people who aim to exploit the system, but it has evolved and over the years it's become a lot harder to do so. It's of course far from perfect. Many people are being ignored while others are being supported for no apparent reason. But that's how people work. If something fails you improve it, until it works.
Of course, the above is set in a different culture than the American culture. Someone who is a little informed about the world can do little but be impressed because of the many achievements of a society such as the American society. But on the other hand, it's really almost frustrating to see so much potential being wasted. Prison is more expensive to society than welfare. Ignoring someone is more costly to society than helping them on their feet. Those are just mathematical facts. I'm very sure my country hasn't evolved in the way it has because of a great love to all people. Of course not, then its foreign policy would be very different indeed. It has evolved the way it has aiming for nothing but money and power. Or in reality, holding its own in an agressive world (economically speaking of course). The fortunate by-product is that people live longer, less children die, and one has more opportunities to be happy.
So I'm amazed to see if a sytem is more costly (or only marinally less costly) for the individual tax payer than an alternative which would help millions. I don't think the US should adopt the French welfare/health care sytem. I think the US (or actually its citizens) should recognize problems and accept that they are a real issue and start from scratch. Looking around how others do it, and then improve that system so it serves their needs. If you can fly to the moon (or for you conspiracy nuts, fake you have) then you should be able to do just that.
I'm going to dare explain my point with a metaphor. If privatized health care grants more freedom, then why are fire and police departments nationalized? Why doesn't anyone say it's your choice if your house is on fire? That you should have been more careful? And why isn't the fire department refused then to you because you were that stupid? Because, while it might be your own fault, the fire can still spread to other houses of people who did nothing wrong.
Same with health care, while one persons stupidity (not that I'm acknowledging that is the main cause of getting sick) means his own downfal, it can affect others. For example (overly simplified I admit), if a person with a business gets sick and can't pay his/her medical bills then his bankrupcy will mean his employees are without a job. It's a really dumbed down example, but I'm sure you can extrapolate it to other parts of society.
In the end it's all about turning a profit. i'm all for that. And ignoring human potential won't turn a profit.
Thanks for reading the wall of text. Hope it explained my stance sufficiently.
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Hmm, your fire and police example is pretty good, I shall have to think on it.
Second, I absolutely agree that people in this country do not start with equal footing. That is something I accepted long ago, because I myself started pretty low down the totem pole. And I'll be honest, when I was younger I had some pretty strong socialist ideals. I believed that a good government should provide a safety net of sorts. People should succeed or fail on their own, without intervention, but no one should fail to the point where they're starving in the street. So, nationalized health care sounded pretty good to me then. But that was before I found a job in the health care system, before I started volunteering at the heatlh department.
The experience has jaded me, to say the least. I encounter many people who use that safety net, and become addicted to it. What started innocently enough as someone who lost a job and couldn't get work, turned into a habitual job-avoider using the system to repeatedly provide for a new kind of lifestyle devoid of honest labor. I've seen people get pregnant, repeatedly, just to use the child to get a bigger welfare check. I have seen horrors and abuses.
Through it all, the most terrible thing I've seen is a change in attitude. One might expect a touch of gratitude, relief, or even simple contentment from such people. Instead, what I've seen is expectation and rancor. They have come to believe that it is everyone else's responsibility to make them live. They go beyond the safety net of providing for them when they can't, to providing for them when they won't. That somehow their deliberate incompetence and need is a value to be traded for.
It is this attitude that horrifies me the most. If I believed that a nationalized heatlh care system would somehow not encourage this activity, then I might be very supportive of it. However, I have seen good intentions turn to horrors. It has left me immensly bitter.